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Casinos Hit the Data Jackpot
foldedspace writes: "CNN.com has a story about the information that casinos collect about their customers. They're even bragging about it. 6TB on 9 million customers at the Mirage!"
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Casinos exploiting the masses... what next?
Microsoft has a link to a press release outlining Verizon's 9TB in SQL Server databases, including 2.2TB in one SQL Server instance.
Microsoft's TerraServer is a 4 node cluster of 8-processor Compaq ProLiant 8500s. You can see a picture of them on the Terraserver site. Certiainly that's expensive, but I wouldn't call it a massive cluster. You might want to call up the folks at Teradata if you're looking for massive.
At 6TB, the same things that give you amazing speed on small datasets will kill performance on big ones. A big installation requires a very smart query processor and highly parallelized transaction support. Doing this right requires overhead that would likely bring a 486sx to its knees.
The link is correct. Just remove the space between the 4 and the 7.
Microsoft's "TerraServer" satellite imagery service is 1.5TB, and it's hosted over 4 Compaq ProLiant 8500's. The servers run Windows2000: Datacenter along with SQL Server2000: Enterprise Edition.
c h. asp
http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/terra_te
No, I believe what made the Internet bubble burst was a natural stock market correction. Some of these dotbombs which had NEVER made a profit and literally bled money like it was going out of style had higher market caps than some of the oldest and most established companies in the world. That's just nuts. I am so glad that this market has gotten the air knocked out of it so that we can get to rebuilding at a more sane rate. Sorry, no more 22 year old dotcom CEOs driving around in Ferraris, but if you have a sound business plan, a marketable product, and positive cashflow you will survive.
Why don't you read the FAQ and set your threashhold to something useful like 3?
Having counted cards at foxwoods I can tell you this is not how it is done. Firstly, no casinos use single decks anymore, foxwoods was eight, and they shuffle when it gets down to two decks. And card counting isn't illegal anyway, but a casino can bar you because you look like a geek. They have the right to refuse service, as any buisness.
Why doesn't Slashdot institute a rule (very simple) that no anonymous cowards or accounts with < 0 karma can post to an article for the first 5 minutes of its existence? This perpetual "First Post!" thing just seems so tired and easy to eliminate.
I don't think the Geekizoid folk would be as keen to get "middle post!".
What if they expanded it beyond trying to catch cheats? .... Hey, CmdrTaco just walked through door 5 of the Luxor. According to the database, he likes blondes, so send employee 109872 over there to make sure that he stays drunk and distracted.
I don't have cable, so unless they stream it from their site or let PBS re-broadcast it, I won't be watching it any time soon. Come to think of it, I haven't watched TV in a few weeks.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
I'm not sure what they are using now, but as of a few years ago, Harrah's customer database was in Informix running on NCR *nix. The also had a few AS/400s. I _think_ every property had one of the small AS/400s onsite. Which sometimes can be a problem if the property is a riverboat and it moves under a bridge, blocking the satellite uplink.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Maybe an opt out policy is in order? Or an opt in?
You don't have to have one of the players or gold cards to eat or gamble at the casinos. People get them because the more they use them, the more freebies the casinos give them.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Most casinos already have hundreds of video camera watching everyone. Just imagine what they could do if they used the same facial recognition software that the Tampa police have and tie it back into their gambler databases.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Casinos (and in fact and organised gambling of any form) relies on odds. Betting in a casino will, in the long run lose you more than you gain. That's because the odds are stacked in favour of the casino. However, there's one exception -- Black Jack. There, the odds are very slightly in favour of the gambler. Card counters are basically people that have learned techniques to help take advantage of this fact, and so, in the long run, can expect to win more than they lose. There's nothing bad about it, unless you're a casino, at which point, you're obviously going to be less than impressed. If casinos tolerated card counting, it would seriously affect their bottom line, and they're not prepared to do that.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
The problem is that information doesn't go away - much of what's been collected about people within the last few years is likely to be around for a lifetime.
Thanks Bill we have Windows and SQL Server.
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
640 KB should be enough for anybody.
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
If they have a patent on giving preferential treatment to those who give you the most money, will they be getting a cut from all the big special interest campaign donations? Will you have to buy a license from them to be a politician?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Oh, alright.
Basically, casinos make money because of odds. The odds are in their favor. If they weren't, then they wouldn't have the game.
If you do something to put the odds in your favor (card counting), then of course you aren't welcome in their establishment. You probably won't lose (overall).
Would you make a bet where you didn't think you had a better chance of winning than not? Neither would they.
That may be true of Foxwoods, but it's not true generally. Nevada is full of casinos that still have 1 and 2-deck games. For instance, the Horseshoe and Circus Circus in Las Vegas have single-deck.
I play Nerd-Folk!
Er, no. The average player loses at all the games in the casino, or the casino wouldn't offer the game. But some games have a large enough skill factor that very good players can consistently make money at them.
There are two table games where a good player can actually make a living playing the game. The two games are blackjack and poker. With poker you just have to be enough better than the other players - one of the skill components is skill at selecting who to play against - to make up for the house cut. With blackjack you have to master basic strategy and one of any number of counting systems. If you have bankroll and self-discipline, it's easier to become a decent blackjack player than it is to become a decent chess player. Most people don't put in enough time to become skilled, so the casinos make enough money from the bad players to more than make up for what they lose to the few skilled players.
Those who want to find good books, discuss playing conditions and so on should check out Stanford Wong's BJ21 discussion board.
I play Nerd-Folk!
yup, and in reality this is just an automation of an even older system that's been around as long as the casinos have been, only by modernizing it could they realistically scale it up from just the whales to everyone.
What amazes me really is that they're even trying to do this with SQL server and Dell hardware... sad, truely sad... a couple 400s at each site would pull this off; probably cheaper, faster and more reliably too.
Wouldn't sorting a 6TB SQL database on a win2k server take a million years?
Given that the fastest database systems in the world are running SQL Server (yes I realize that those who used to hold the TPC as sacred now defile it because of SQL Server's successes) I really don't understand how you could say this. Versus what? A magical Linux mySQL cluster? A hypothetical super computer (despite none matching the clustered performance of SQL Server 2000). I'm sure they are very careful about the queries they do run as 6TB will stress any configuration, but if anything can do it obviously SQL Server can.
Where do they store 6TB of data?
SQL Server let's you partition a database, or even just a single table, across many machines. If they have 6TB of data obviously they have a pretty impressive cluster set up, so the scalability is pretty much limitless.
I'm shooting in the dark here, but I'd wager that it's not incredibly likely that Casinos (or anyone who actually needs a RDBMS) are running it on 486SX', so as a metric that is rather worthless (sort of like saying a Acura NSX is slow when you hook a truck trailer to it). On a real machine SQL Server will rock any system's world, including the big big boys.
In a message where I'm replying to someone trying to run SQL Server on a 486SX, you have the audacity to criticize because I mentioned the current cost of SDRAM? Guess what: I highly doubt he's too concerned about ECC RAM or RAMBUS memory if he's trying to run it on a 486.
No shit that they would want some serious hardware for something that big, and the point I made in a previous post was that obviously they're not going to be running it on underpowered hardware. Take off those Linux-loving glasses Linux-luser, because it makes your posts laughable.
BTW: Have you ever heard of a little something called TPC? (Apparently not by your absurd notions) SQL Server dominates the price/performance ratio and has for some time (though DB2 is making inroads, humorously running on Windows 2000). "UNIX running on Sun, HP, or IBM Hardware" is an expensive solution that doesn't even scale to the level of SQL Server, however apparently someone forgot you back in the 1980s so you haven't realized this. Oh wait: You're probably one of those "UNIX with Oracle just because!" weenies that frequents the boards talking about how you get excited thinking about the awe inspiring Oracle.
There are plenty of little shops running just fine on a single Dell PowerEdge 2400 @ ~$3000, with developers doing testing on workstations (because SQL Server runs on low hardware [well not a 486SX...] to the highest hardware), dipshit.
A SQL Server database can be partitioned obviously across multiple machines (which is how it dominates the TPC), but also across several disk volumes.
In any case I thought the theoretical maximum file size is 16 exabytes (18,446,744,073,709,551,616 bytes).
SQL Server was made to run on reasonably well equipped hardware (the listed requirements for Windows 2000 are a 133Mhz Pentium processor, and 128MB of RAM, with 256MB recommended. For SQL Server 2000 they up the CPU recommendation to a 166Mhz or better), and on anything less it is starved for memory or I/O and it will not scale with CPU time because there are much more perilous external circumstances. There is ZERO reason to run Windows 2000 or SQL Server on under-powered hardware (256MB PC133MB CAS2 DIMMs are like $35 US), but on proper hardware it will take on any competitor when comparing apples to apples.
Don't they already do that? Check out the Casino Diaries on Discovery. They do the face recognition against a database of people they know cheats or suspect of cheating.
Je ne parle pas francais.
They already do that for bigtime gamblers (not exactly keeping him drunk, but keeping him happy).Basically, they send the limo out to greet him at the airport, free suites, anything s/he wants, s/he gets.
For the rest of the people, do you really think they're going to have 1 employee for each guest going through the casino? Not very cost effective, especially if you only spend $50. Don't think the Casino really notice you unless you start betting $10,000+ pr. hand.
Besides, drinks are free.
Je ne parle pas francais.
Well, the casino's track every transaction you make with in their casino's... How many beds are in the room you got, how much you've won or lost, how much you've had to drink, what exactly you had to drink, what you ate, when you ate, did you gamble more when you were hungry or full, sober or drunk, alone or with company, etc etc etc... So many variables that they want to track in order to figure out how they should treat you, from the moment you step foot inside to the moment you go outside again.
Right, but 1.5 TB of images is not nearly as impressive as 1.5 TB of actual transactional data...
Are you sure they didn't just keep their prices the same, and then add "penalty fees" for people who refuse to use their card? (Is there even a difference?) Anyway, I'm swapping cards with my friends, just to mess with Safeway's head...
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
From a cross-indexing of everything from your tells, amount of patience, religious beliefs and political opinions to your salary and betting habits, psychology info can then be computed and instantly sent to that one-armed bandit you just sat down in front of. The machine then comes up with results designed to keep you in front of it and maximize the total amount you put down.
--
Vidi, Vici, Veni
this minor step has already been taken over in the EU
Very nearly, but not quite. As I understand it, the EU has passed a motion (directive?) that allows its member states to pass legislation like that that you describe. I don't think that the states have to pass it.
Unfortunately for me, the UK, in which I live, was one of the states pressing for this to be passed... Ah well, I have nothing to hide (from the current government, at least...)
I do agree that the largest privacy threats come from business, rather than government, but I take some exception to your assertion that we should Get ready to drop any spare change you still have left.
Highly targeted advertising or not, I'd like to think I still have enough free will and self control to decide for myself what I want to buy.
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Actually the standard for Player's Club type stuff is a minimum bet of $25/hand. The other magic number is 4 hours per day that the average gambler spends at the tables while in Vegas. Pulling a number out of the air of 40 hands/hour, the casino figures you are putting $1000/hour at risk, or $4000 per 4 hour session. Depending on the game they expect that they will get 2-4% or $80-$160 from that session, and they will comp you 30-50% of that profit, so you should walk away with a $40-$60 meal comp.
Chris
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
You don't use your "Player's Card" in the restaraunts, but what you do is charge it to your room. You will always be told to charge everyhting to your room, so they can track, and comp you on it.
I just got back from a 3 day weekend in Vegas, all completely comped: meals, rooms, drinks. We ate and drank well, and charged everything to our room. When we were checking out we were told that our host had checked my account and comped everything except the tips (the casino never comps tips). So our three day weekend cost us about $30 + plane fare.
To make the whole thing better, I won enough money to cover all out of pocket expenses (taxis, limos, etc). I fairly consistently come back from Vegas with just as much money as when I left.
The counterintuitive thing that people don't get about comps is that casino will comp you more when you are winning. You can bet heavily and lose and not get a comp, yet bet mildly and win and you will get a comp. People think that Casino's comp you for losing. Casinos know that people who consistently lose will not really want to come back.
But by creating that instant "High Roller" experience as quoted in the article, people who are winning will want to come back even more. People who are losing mildly, but getting comped and treated like royalty are more likely to write off the loss and not care.
Chris
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
Over 37 spins, you'll spend (say) ¥370. Since each number has a 1/37 probability of being hit, each number can be expected to be hit once in that span. Your expected earnings:
12 wins on your 1-12 bet (¥5 at 2:1 odds) = 12*¥15 = ¥180
12 wins on your 13-24 bet (¥4 at 2:1 odds) = 12*¥12 = ¥144
3 wins on your row bet (¥1 at 11:1 odds) = 3*¥12 = ¥36
Total gross in 37 spins: ¥180 + ¥144 + ¥36 = ¥360
I don't think the casinos would have any problem with that.
If you put all your ¥10 per spin on 2 for 37 spins, you can expect 1 win. At 35:1 odds, you'll win ¥360. (By this, I mean that you can expect in the long run to make back ¥360 of your ¥370. You could very easily double your money at some point -- there's a ~40% chance of hitting 2 in 18 spins.)
If you put ¥3 on the 17-18-20-21 intersection, ¥2 on red, ¥2 on the first column, and ¥1 each on the digits in your grandfather's birthdate (12, 15, and 19, in my case) for 37 spins, you'll still win ¥360. The actual math (or, as you might say, "maths") is/are left as an exercise for the reader. (It helps if your grandfather was born between 1900 and 1936.)
As far as maximizing possible earnings, see Duff's comment above. Lots of low-odds bets won't get you far above break-even, and you'll go broke. However, IIRC, single-zero roulette has the best payout of all games against the house unless you're counting cards.
--
..!!in an intastella burst i am back to save the universe!!
BIG DEAL
SO WHAT
jesus christ people. you sign up for one of those loyalty card things, and you don't expect this? plus, what's the big fucking deal? why should i give a fuck if they know i like onions on my burger (i don't). is the onion mafia going to come out and get me, and make me eat my onions?
god damn, there are a lot of other things going on in the world more important than this, but i guess if some casino knows i like gin and tonic, that's pretty damn newsworthy.
BilldaCat
You know... I thought about it. I don't have a problem with someone collecting information about me, as long as that information was volunteered by me.
I only have a problem with them selling it or giving it out to others.
Ever wonder why bank clerks get chatty? They get bonuses for referring people to the loans department (or any other bank service) when they hear the person is doing something. Oh, your daughter is just about to get married? That's great sir! (write not to loan department to give him a call).
This happens when I order a Pizza.
I fail to see why people have a problem with people who they already do business with using whatever means they want to 'remember' that information.
It's when they share it/sell it that I take issue.
It's not that touchy. So she had your number.. you gave it to her before?
Also, I don't know about you, but I don't really worry about people taking my credit card number. I mean, I don't flaunt it around, but there are a zillion ways for someone to get it if they want, I don't concern myself with it.
I'm not responsible for a dime if some yahoo uses my number, I'm only responsible for up to the $50 limit if someone *steals my card*.
If it WAS somebody new using your number (a valid concern) and they did decide to use your credit card number to order something... they'd still need to get a signature when they delivered... and you'd have no problems refuting it.
The casino patrons in question gave up their rights to provacy when they agreed to get and use the casino's 'loyalty cards'. Like Air Miles these babies reward you for giving information to the company that gives them out. The more info you give the more stuff you get. Whether the compensation is fair is up to you, if you don't like it then DON'T USE THE LOYALTY CARD. It is totally up to the individual if they want to be tracked. All the casino's are doing is saying:
'Hey we want to give the small-time big-spender the big-roller experience, the only way to do that is to know our customers intimately and know their habits. '
Gathering as much info as possible is the only way to do this. Getting customers to give up the info is the problem so they reward them if they do. The system is opt in, which most consumer privacy groups applaud, so what is the big deal?
-Shieldwolf
just = (My)Opinion.toCents();
1. As someone who has done very little gambling, but read a fair bit about the social and mathematical aspects of gambling & casinos, I have to agree with everyone who has pointed out that you really can't make money with "systems". The casinos are there to make money, not to provide a fair game. Even "fair" purely mathematical systems like card counting will get you thrown out and your picture sent to every other casino in town, thus ending your gambling holiday. It might have been possible to have been a professional gambler 20-30 years ago, but things have changed. (I'd also like to take a moment to spark one in memory of Ken Uston, who got me interested in lots of cool applied mathematics at such a young age).
2. As much as I'm generally passionate about privacy issues and pay cash whenever possible, I can't say I'm bothered by what the casinos are doing here. If you are that bothered by the evil voracious nature of capitalism, WTF are you doing going to a casino??
3. Kim Rice, who wrote the CNN article, "shouldn't not" be publically shamed and humiliated, and his/her editors and proofreaders "shouldn't not" be tarred and feathered, for allowing such ugly mangled sentences like "These aren't things that supermarkets, banks or retailers don't do" to be seen by public eyes.
"Right this way Mrs. Arnold - we have a free room for you right behind the meat department"
Remember the old proverb: do not kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
:)
deus does not exist but if he does
There are no purely mathematical systems which guarantee you stay ahead of the house at roulette. None at all. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. This is not to say that there aren't systems - there are good ones to maximise winnings, control losses and give you a slight edge - but the ones which rely on probability fail mainly because roulette is not a game of probability :)
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
They are people who have learned a system to get themselves an edge on card games - normally but not necessarily blackjack. They are bad from a casino's point of view in that they can convert an 8-10% edge in the casino's favour to a 2-6% edge in their favour depending on the conditions - how many decks, the size of your bankroll and the rules of the game in question.
From what I understand (and I am not a gambler - and I don't really like cards, outside of the mechanics of the games, etc - so I may be wrong) - is that a "card counter" is exactly that - someone who can keep track of, in their heads, of what cards may be "where" (ie, in what players) - and what the dealer may have left - through knowing what they have, as well as how many hands they have lost or won - etc.
Almost. Very few people on this planet can keep track of several shuffled decks in their heads, especially when those decks are reshuffled every few minutes. Card "counters" just tally up the values of the cards dealt according to one of several systems. Once you're through a deck far enough then if you have a high running total - you bet high, low running total - bet low. There are plenty of links - try searching Google for "Blackjack Basic Strategy".
What I can't understand is why this is illegal - ie, why is it illegal to have the skill to remember cards and positions, etc - in order to make the odds more favorable - making such an ability illegal punishes those who have the brain "capacity" or "ability", and rewards (or at least protects) those with "lesser" (or nonexistant) skills in the area.
It's not illegal - casinos just don't like like you to win. If they suspect you have a system, then they'll use the catch-all Right of Admission Reserved and kick you out. Trust me - I know :)
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
I'd think part of the secret to this working is that a great deal of the data is static (you don't have millions of people in the casino at once) and historical (the vast majority of data is stuff already stored in the past).
They do a little OLTP, but it sounds like the main use is reporting. Their database doesn't require any real power. Just oodles of storage.
I do not want my Health Insurance co seeing that I only use pure butter, not margrine, or that I got some Jack Daniels the other day.
Anyone silly enough to buy groceries or booze with a credit or debit card can probably assume that their insurance company already knows about all of their bad habits.
We need govt. regulation for this kind of stuff
Move to Canada. Your privacy is actually protected there.
I read one of the comments about this being used for possible catching cheaters, by comparing faces to a database of known cheats...
One thing I have always wondered about, is the notion (reality?) of "card counters" - I mean, what exactly are they, and why are they bad?
From what I understand (and I am not a gambler - and I don't really like cards, outside of the mechanics of the games, etc - so I may be wrong) - is that a "card counter" is exactly that - someone who can keep track of, in their heads, of what cards may be "where" (ie, in what players) - and what the dealer may have left - through knowing what they have, as well as how many hands they have lost or won - etc. The idea of "shuffling" is to introduce some form of randomness to help alleviate (or eliminate) the ability to count cards...
If this is true (ie, if my "definition" of a card counter is correct), then I can see how it would skew the odds in their favor, and away from other players and the house. What I can't understand is why this is illegal - ie, why is it illegal to have the skill to remember cards and positions, etc - in order to make the odds more favorable - making such an ability illegal punishes those who have the brain "capacity" or "ability", and rewards (or at least protects) those with "lesser" (or nonexistant) skills in the area.
I can understand the bans against using computers to do the counting for you - what I wonder about is what happens when the time comes (if it comes), that humans are able to get "brain augmentation" devices - would these "trans-humans" be unable to gamble in casinos at that point? In other words, would they be banned? Probably...
Finally, if the cards can be actually counted, and the probability of the hands can be skewed or somewhat accurately determined by a machine or by a human card counter - are the games then not truely random? If that is so - then are the casinos really just protecting the possible fact that they may be found out as a fraudulant "business"?
Comments?
Worldcom - Generation Duh!
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Years ago there was a guy who worked in the same computer lab as I did. He was a grad student from a different country and he lived in a house with lots of other guys from his country. Every year at spring break they would all go to vegas for the week. What would happen is they would all pool their money and despoit it in one of the casino's "banks" using a member card and then pull out 1/5th of it every day. To the casino it looked like one guy would come in and dump several thousand dollars every spring break so they would provide this member a free room. What the casino didn't know about was the large number of people involved in the deal.
>Important computer organisations (eg. ACM) really pressing their codes of ethics' seriously
Have you heard the old saying that "business ethics" is an oxymoron? Yeah sure the ACM can tout ethics all they want. And it will only take a few firings before everyone gets the idea of who is in charge, code of ethics or not. If you want a large corporation to act ethical, you better pass a law with enough teeth in it to make the megacorp respect it. Otherwise this "code of ethics" is not worth more that the paper its written on.
I'm not too concerned about this. They keep track of you via loyalty cards. There's nothing that says you have to use the cards to gamble. Decline the card offers and gamble with cash only. If you feel really really paranoid, pay for your room and food with cash too. They won't stop you. If they did start requiring you to swipe that stupid card every time you gambled, I would walk out of there so fast their heads would twist right off. And using those cards to "save" money is stupid anyway. Unless you're very lucky or very skilled, you're going to lose to the house anyway. Whether you lose a few dollars more really isn't going to matter.
What does have me concerned is the where movie theaters are headed. This Fandango crap really annoys me. You can still buy your ticket at the counter, but I can see that they are trying to do away with that. Until I hear that they're backing off on requiring you to register for purchasing movie tickets, I guess I won't be seeing movies in the theaters any more. But I'm a patient man, and getting the used DVD for $10 on sale is a better value anyways.
Of course they do. They quality and quantity of coupons in their mailings are directly related to how much you spent at the store last month. The size of the "free" Thanksgiving turkey or Christmas ham is related to how much you spent at their stores during the months of November and December respectively.
________________________
I don't want free as in beer. I just want free beer.
There is an opt-out possibility here.. just don't go to the casino. You're going on their property when you enter a casino, and they have every right to watch you while you're there, and keep track of what you buy.
Sure, they shouldn't know what you bought at Victoria's Secret last week, but it's perfectly find for them to watch you while you're on their property. Wouldn't you be watching some stranger that came into your house?
If this were just watching you all over town, that'd be different, but this is in their casino, on their property, you're spending your money at their place, so of course they're going to track you.
Still doesn't seem like a privacy issue to me.
You know, there are hugely popular websites where consumers exchange coupons and information about which stores are running promotions and how to jack with them to squeeze these companies. You wouldn't believe some of the things people get from doing this. The consumers come armed with information when they come to shop, the stores just want to level the playing field a bit by getting some information about their consumers.
It's still not a privacy issue, they just decided they'd like to be able to target market more effectively. If you don't like it, don't shop there.
If you don't want Safeway to collect information on your purchases, then don't have or use a club card.
It's that simple. You are trading information about yourself for discounts. Seems like a reasonable exchange rather than some sinister invasion of privacy to me.
I might have a problem if they were piggybacking on your Credit cards or scanning your checks in to compile statistics about you without your knowledge, but anyone who thinks they might not use those club cards to gain information about you is naive.
I didn't work for Harrah's, but the company I worked for was a completely IBM shop (except for win 3.1/win 95 on the desktops and Novell on the file servers.) The AS/400's where the heart of the system. OS/2 for the critical data collection units. Token Ring everywhere.
As far as the riverboats, each had it's own AS/400 on board. When the boats docked they were plugged into a land-based network which allowed the data to be synced to another AS/400 on land. This system, of course, was connect by WAN to the other properties.
numb
At my first IT job I worked for a casino and worked directly on this exact type of system. I worked closely with the developers and was fairly familiar with the whole system. About four years back when I left they were just beginning to license the system to other casinos. I wouldn't be suprised if it's the same system that the casino reps in the article are talking about.
The amount of data the system collects is astounding. Each table has a card reader which the dealers can run your card through to keep track of how long you've been at which table. Each slot machine is also connected. I believe about 75% percent of floor space, the maximum allowed by law in Atlantic City at the time, was allocated to slot machines. The slot machines generate more money per square foot than any other part of the casino so it is beneficial to fit as many of them as possible into the available space on the casino floor.
Not a drop of data is wasted. The system would register the exact time that each coin is put in, the exact time the handle was pulled (or the time the bet/spin buttons were pressed), which machine it was, the type of game, the denomination of the coin(s) inserted, whether a coin was rejected, every conceivable transaction. We could actually calculate the average time it took between the last coin being inserted and the patron pulling the handle. All the data is archived with the same care that financial instutions archive their transactions. If you use a 'loyalty card' as they call it in the article then the data is attached to the patron.
The big reason to use one of these cards is all the free perks you get should you spend enough money gambling. The prefered parking areas at the casino required your card to get in and the reader on the parking gate was also attached to the system. If a high end player arrived the system would page a Casino Executive (actually just a fancy title for someone who makes sure a high end player's needs are well tended) and the exec could go wait near the corridor to greet the arriving guest.
From the casino's perspective, knowing the patron's likes/dislikes, which events to send invitations for, which players warrant personal attention, and things like these are important in generating customer loyalty--you want to make your casino the customers' preferred destination when they come to town and you want to keep it that way. Regular visitors to the city might visit several casinos while in town, but they usually have a favorite where they spend most of their time and money.
Another imporant part of the system is to allow the patron to collect points by gambling. The more points you accumulate per visit the more free perks you get such as tickets to shows, fights, parties, free rooms/suites, meals at gourmet restuarants, limos, helicopters, charter flights, etc.
I was going to make an analogy to frequent flyer miles but it's not quite the same thing. With frequent flyer miles it's the number of points you accumulate the decides when you get your free airfare/upgrades. At a casino it's the number of points that you are likely to earn on your next or current visit that are important. This is based on 'past performance' of the patron. However, as with frequent flyer miles, it pays off to patronize the same place in order to get the most freebies. It's usually preferable to be offered a free suite at one casino than to be offered a free room upgrade at 3 or 4 different casinos which are not your favorite.
Even in the early 90's they were already doing this. In the meantime I'm sure much thought and effort has been expended to refine the process.
numb
700k might sound ridiculous at first, but the system I worked on recorded each transaction a customer made in as detailed a manner as possible. For example if you played a slot machine there would be a timestamp on each coin you insert, each handle pull, each win/loss, each rejected coin, plus other things that I'm probably forgetting...it's been several years. Also, each free perk or offer for the perk, dates you visited, which mailings you were sent, what time you entered/left the parking garage, etc, would be stored in the database. Some customers with credit with a casino also have their digitized signatures in the system. It adds up.
numb
The Mob's a lot more trustworthy. And their odds of winning are a lot better than the state's. Ever check the odds of a state run lottery? You've got about the same odds of winning if you just went out and set your money on fire.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
On the plus side, footage of the Rodney King beating forward then will be available live on the Internet the instant it's happening. Will the be laws allowing you to tap into the Cops' armour HUD sense data and replace the last several hours to see if they set out to "beat up some niggers" earlier that night? That would be pretty damning evidence at the trial. That goes back to Brin's Transparent Society, I guess.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
What is important to ask is, can one opt out of this data collection?
Yeah, don't go to the casino.
Steve
It seems they have a patent on combining data from their various sites, into a larger database.
Gee, never thought the network + some disks could be a patentable combination!
TimC --
Off to patent..... the knights who said "Ni"!
One critical patent covers Harrah's method for consolidating gambling and hospitality data from its 21 properties. If someone visits Harrah's Las Vegas, then the nearby Rio, then Showboat Atlantic City -- all owned by Harrah's -- information about those activities is culled from local databases and consolidated into a central patron database. This gives Harrah's a fuller view of individual customers, Boushy said.... Any competitor that wants to consolidate data from their own multiple properties "has to come talk to us or run the risk of a lawsuit," Boushy said. "We created a strategy that others thought was nuts at the time, and [we] want to garner benefits from it."
What I find more troubling is that Harrah's was able to patent the consolidation of data among properties. Good grief, what's so unique about that? It would seem to be the logical use of data, else why would you gather it?
Any competitor that wants to consolidate data from their own multiple properties "has to come talk to us or run the risk of a lawsuit," Boushy said. "We created a strategy that others thought was nuts at the time, and [we] want to garner benefits from it."
How can yo patent consolidating data? Sense when does the particular type of data used make it unique? Does this mean that anyone who starts a new type of survey could patent they're survey, and anyone who wants to to collect similar information would have to pay them royalties?
I don't mind a company keeping track of this. If I call up my bank and the guy said 'hi, how are the kids doing', I'd be - well, surprised, because I don't have any kids, but assuming I did, I'd feel pleased at the fact that they took the time out to record these things. And it doesn't matter that the person being pally with me is someone I've never spoken to before; I'm speaking to a representative of the bank, who is treating me as a valued customer.
It would get scary if all companies pooled this information though. If there were terabytes of data on everyone's preferences, home life, and conversation style, and any company that wanted to be pally could just buy into this database and instantly become your friend.
There has been a major scientific break-in
Maybe these guys should rethink their database structure... six Terabytes for just nine million users means more than half a meg of data per person... I wonder what all the stuff is they have stored...
Actually, they do, although who they care about is different. Wooing non-smokers into the fold is not as easy as it used to be, but getting someone to switch brands is not terribly hard. In my area, they send out fetchingly dressed, shapely women with to the dive bars with little lit pens & clipboards. If you let them see your license(!), they'll give you a few free packs of smokes.
Now, only one brand to a bar. And the ones who come around seem to be looking for non-brand smokers. The customers already loyal seek out the cig ladies and still get packs -- it's all profit in the end, anyway. Most of the people in one I frequent laugh off my shudders at giving the cig lady my license number, but I don't think it's funny at all. Addicts don't care.
your sig always evaluates to (define-question 1) since b + b' = 1 (in boolean algebra anyways)
This reminds me of the "Farleyfile", as described in Robert A. Heinlein's novel Double Star. A politician kept a database on all the people he met with, and before each appointment he would look up the person and refresh his memory. When the main character expressed outrage, another character said it was no different than writing down a phone number and address for a friend, except in scale.
... this is exactly how it works. Except that politicians and other oh-so-important people in government usually have a team of staffers to prepare what is called a "brief" for them, which will contain whatever background information they have on whoever The Man happens to be meeting today.
Er
Well, it's definately better than earning yourself new cement-shoes, sleeping with the fishes. In this respect it's an improvement. The people behind gambling have always been crooks, it's just more socially acceptable to be a crook now. As long as you keep up an expensive facade. We automatically look up to and respect people who have more money and power, regardless how they got it. So our value-system is basically flawed, no matter how much we think we're better than others in that respect.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
are people supposed to just throw their money at them to finance $1.2 billion monstrosities such as the bellagio? oh, wait...
---
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
No--if anything, this moves power away from the political elite. This is the ultimate grass-roots campaign: no consultants, no pollsters, no "positioning", no "image advisors." Just a guy whose on the school board who thinks the current state rep is a jerk, calling to ask for your vote. And calling back to mention that he'd talked to some other veterans, and now he understands why getting funding for the VA hospital expansion is such a worthwhile thing, and so forth.
I can't point to statistical evidence that N phone calls increases voter turnout by Y--but I have plenty of anecdotal evidence. After the second or third phone call, those Super Voters really feel special. They start to view themselves as part of the campaign. And since they're so interested in politics (which is why they vote in every election) they tend to be opinion leaders--they influence other people. Get a few of these people, get them to really understand who you are and why you're running, and you have a powerful political force.
We're getting off-topic, but there's a larger conversation to be had here. Everybody thinks that "special-interest money" is a bad thing, especially the influence that special-interest money had in the last presidential race. If primary delegates and presidential electors were selected by congressional district (as opposed to "winner takes all") this kind of I'm-calling-to-ask-for-your-vote approach would be incredibly effective. You'd have to spend unbelievable amounts of money to overwhelm the grass-roots communication methods of thousands of local leaders who are routinely talking to their constituents. I'm biased--but I think that would be a positive thing for the nation as a whole.
With respect, I disagree. There are activists in any election, but only rarely are they Super Voters. Activists, particularly the Christian Right activists, only tend to show up at the polls when they are animated by a particular issue. They tend to not be Super Voters--SVs vote in every single election, rain or shine.
Case in point: Mario Andretti. He lives in our township, and he is a gold-plated Super Voter. He votes in every election, every year, no matter what. He has voted by absentee ballot from Indy in a completely uncontested municipal primary. He (and his entire family) vote absolutely every time. Mario's not an "activist" by most definitions. Yes--he'll lend his name to a Republican party fundraiser every now and again--but typically for a candidate that he's known for years, rather than out of ideological or political loyalty.
The Super Voters, in my experience, are good, old-fashioned patriots. Real believers in the electoral process, people who view voting as their civic duty, and who will cheerfully mouth the words "civic duty" without a hint of sarcasm or embarassment. A lot of them are naturalized citizens, or first- or second-generation Americans. A *lot* of them are vets. You see a lot of them at the Memorial Day parade, you see a lot of them at the fire company July 4th picnic.
Twenty years ago I viewed them as old codgers with a simplistic view of the world and not enough to do. Today I think they're a lot more important--and their views are more important--than I used to give them credit for. Even if I agree with the Christian Right agenda (at least most of the time) these are the people whom I most respect.
Hi!
Okay--I'll confess. Although I've been working with computers and networks since 1983, I'm not a real geek. I've never read anything by Robert Heinlein. So I'm not familiar with the book "Farleyfile".
But I am very familiar with a very successful political strategy that combines two database methods to produce a very, very effective (and inexpensive) campaign. And it sounds very similar to what you describe. Here's how it works:
Every state requires some government entity (the county in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Illinois, don't know about other states) to maintain voter registration records. For purposes of purging records of inactive voters (and for double-checking when there are allegations of vote fraud) the county maintains records of which elections you have voted in during the past N years. So in Pennsylvania, for instance, the county keeps track of the past 8 elections (primary and general in each of the past 4 years). That data is a matter of public record: along with the voter's date of birth, residence, and political party. (Pennsylvania is a "closed primary" state: you have to register as a member of a political party, and you can only vote in that party's primary election. You can't "choose your ballot" as you can in some other states.)
When you review this data, it does not take you long to recognize some patterns (which, ex post facto, seem obvious): a lot of people only vote in the presidential general election. A lot of people only vote in the congressional general elections (1998, 2002, etc.). Relatively few vote in "off-year" general elections (1999, 2001, 2003), and practically nobody votes in off-year primaries. That much is reasonably obvious.
But oh--when you look at who votes in off-year primaries, the lightbulb comes on. These people--to a person--are the diehards. They vote in every single election, and they have voted in every single election since they were eligible to vote. (And they know what year it was that the voting age dropped from 21 to 18.) The ultimate test of political junkihood is this: "can you name the last three losing vice-presidential candidates?" Most of these voters can.
Key point:These voters are extremely influential. They like politics, they talk politics, and if they get excited about somebody they will shape voter opinions. With the slightest motivation/provocation they can bring half a dozen relatives and/or friends to the polls with them. When politicians prate about "grass-roots" support, these are the people they're talking about.
So step #1 is to identify the Super Voter. Step #2 is to send a dozen volunteers through the phone books (you can hire firms to do this as well) to associate a phone number with every single Super Voter (that is, Super Voters in your party) on the list. Step #3 is simple: sit the candidate down at the phone in front of a computer with a contact manager (like Act! or any similar tool). Have the candidate--personally--call every single voter. And have the candidate keep notes, in the contact manager, of every single conversation. Between the time you file petitions at the county registrar's office in February and the primary in May, the candidate should have spoken to every single Super Voter twice. Between the primary and the general election, the candidate should speak to every single Super Voter another 3 times. Each time, the candidate should make notes of the conversation. Whenever possible, the candidate should quickly respond to any need or problem the voter is having.
The results? The first time I saw this used, the candidate was a neophyte: he'd been on the school board, and was running for state representative. He did practically no advertising--but he called every Super Voter in the district two or three times before the primary: there were whole voting districts where he won 100% of the vote. In the general election he faced an 8-term incumbent--and spent essentially zero on advertising. His opponent strolled through the campaign, and was actually on TV (ostensibly to accept congratulations) when he discovered that he'd been beaten.
As a gimmick, this is terrific. But it's more than that: After the election my candidate kept right on calling. He called the super voter list to thank them for their support; he calls newly-registered voters to encourage them to come out to vote; and he calls his lists several times per year. It was so effective that he was unopposed in the next 3 or 4 elections.
Is using a database in this way a bad thing? I don't think so. The end result is that the voters got to recognize their state rep's voice on the phone--and the state rep talked to people across his district, one-on-one, several times a year.
A politician actually calling up his constituents and listening to them. Now that's a scary idea....
Not only do the previous posts have merit, but the information submitted to your financial institution is only the balance of the transfer. The bank can only deduce that you have visited the liquor store--they have no way of knowing if you bought everclear or a nice Bordeaux, the latter of which arguably has health benefits.
chill before you post your paranoid rants, guys.
Are you sure they didn't just keep their prices the same, and then add "penalty fees" for people who refuse to use their card?
Yes. All they've done is refuse to give the sales to people who haven't given them information. This is great for comsumers because the sales are better, and the store obviously makes money on these schemes...
If you're _really_ paranoid, just fill out the sheet with bogus data, just like a web site.
If you always walk in to your favorite restaurant, and the hostess knows you and greets you by name, you probably don't have a paranoid feeling of "She knows who I am. This is bad. I need to start randomly changing restaurants so no one ever recognizes me." In fact, if she remembers that you like to sit by the window, and she puts you by the window, you are likely to be happy.
So the casinos are doing this sort of thing, only on a vast scale. I find this interesting, but not too troubling. I'm sure there are possible abuses here, but I'm not sure that the casinos are any worse than Safeway and their stupid "keep track of everything I buy" card.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
This would be fine, so long as everyone was an ISP and could keep their own records! The whole structure of the internet is supposed to be peer to peer. Legislation that forces subservience to this otherwise equitable technology is a free speech, privacy and national security threat.
As the internet becomes the publishing medium of choice, it is important to preserve the ability of anyone to publish. Control of this medium would be much like the control that governments once imposed on printing presses, opressive, counterproductive and doomed to failure. Any attack on the ability to publish and publish anonymously should be seen as an attack on free speech.
Tracking internet usage by tracking user log ons and browsing is useless and oppresive. It has no use but invasion of privacy. Real criminals will always find away around measures like this. The computer time needed for this tracking would be better put to other purposes.
Finally, the equitable nature of internet protocalls is needed for national security reasons. The web was designed for redundency and continued operation in the event of nuclear war. It's a natural extention of Ham radio field day. Every computer should be able to serve as a true node in the net, if not redundancy is lost and the system becomes weak.
Computer "crime" is best fought by redundency and well educated adminsters who can track down attacks well.
Let other nations oppress their people and track their habbits like bugs. We should live free and thrive.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
OK, so maybe I'm a completely naive, but I fail to see how this is an invasion of privacy...
You visit their casino, spend money on their games, eat in their restaurants and stay in their hotel rooms.
Why shouldn't they track that information? You chose to go and do the things you did on their property.
Now, if they were sharing that information with others with whom you had not chosen to do business, then that would be a problem, but the article clearly states that they aren't doing that.
Stand Fast,
Stand Fast,
tjg.
Now, that I severely doubt. I really don't think the average customer stops to think for even a second to consider what kind of information on their habits will be collected when they hear the magic word "free".
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
"ComputerWorld" - Casinos Hit Jackpot With Customer Data. CRM leaders keep detailed dossiers on loyal gamblers
While the rest of corporate America is waking up to the value of truly detailed customer information, the neon-lit enclave of casino gambling is already taking it to unmatched levels.
Socioeconomic databases, loyalty cards, the cross-matching of credit card data with other files--they're all at work in the gambling business. These aren't things that supermarkets, banks or retailers don't do. But casinos have become masters of customer relationship management (CRM), having mined more complex customer data on a larger scale for a longer time than just about any other industry.
In its latest annual report, Harrah's Entertainment Inc. bragged, "We know what our customers like," then provided examples of the kind of detail the company tracks. "Tom likes NASCAR, Clint Holmes, thick steaks. Joyce and Ted like oceanfront views, barbershop quartets, Elvis slots. . . ."
Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
--Fesh
--Fesh
Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
where do you store 6tb? with SANS a roomfull of ibm AS/400's. (and as400's ROCK ARSE!). win2k + sequel server? pfft bwahaha.
no. the as/400 doesnt have a 'filesystem' its just a giant DB2 sql server, nice n fast. no 'win2k' overhead.
its amazing just what you can 'mine' from a datawarehouse thats backed by years and years of data... truly amazing.
Write your Own Operating System [FAQ]!
no sig for you
The difference between casinos and retail stores and doubleclick is huge.
At casinos and retail stores you optin to the scheme by filling in a form and giving people the right to collect your data. Without filling in this form and getting a little plastic card there is no way (discounting doing analysis on photos of people while they gamble!) to track you between the gaming room, the pokies and the restaurant, let alone across multiple sites and on different days.
Doubleclick, on the other hand, collected your data without your knowledge.
"Domestically, Viisage products annually produce more than 20 million identification documents at more than 1,500 locations in 13 states."
"MGM Grand Las Vegas has adopted Visionics Corp's FaceIt-enabled Griffin G.O.L.D. face-recognition casino security system, following The Venetian and Bellagio's adoption of the product earlier this year. Griffin Investigations, a provider of gaming security information, has an on-line database with over 30 years of intelligence data, which casinos to match suspected individuals at gaming tables, in real-time, to a database containing photographs of all types of known casino cheaters, card counters and their associates."
Any questions?
Here's the product page for the technology. Requires Flash. Looks like something from a video game. Isn't.
Every time you use your card the casino is collating data on your gambling character; how often you gamble; where you live; what kind of credit card you have and approximate credit limit; whether you're trailer trash or affluent; whether you're single or married; gay or straight; how many kids you have; whether you're ahead or behind; what your spending limit is; what table games you play; whether you're reckless or cautious; what machines you like; how long you play them for; if you are loyal to a machine; where you play in the casino; the times when you gamble; the times when you don't gamble; what features of a machine make you spend more; what food you like eating; whether you respond to "comps"; what room you like and so on.
All of that information makes it considerably easier to part someone with their money. You can target certain kinds of people and hit them at their most vulnerable spot. If the table take is down, the casino sends a mailshot out to some high, reckless spenders. If it's low season, mailshot all the trailer trash with cheap bus fares and accomodation.
The same is true for supermarkets of course, but then the scale is so much different. A supermarket mailshot might get someone to spend ten dollars more on their groceries with a coupon, whereas a free meal comp from a casino could end up with someone losing hundreds of dollars.
"Hey Ernie, these guys say that if you walk into the Showboat, they can tell right away that you like Margaritas, even though that's in a computer miles away!"
"Gee Bert, that's incredible! If anyone ever deserved a patent, it's them."
"We all say so, so it must be true!"
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
I wouldn't have a problem with that. As long as I only brought $50 or so. hehe
I'd like to see someone steel a rack of DB servers and the wall of EMC arrays (speculation, but highly likely) from a casino. Even that is too big for an insider.
For example, what would happen if someone were to steal MGM Mirage's database and post it on the net? Immediately millions of people's names and addresses would be available next to their estimated personal income, and potentially "interesting" information such as when they're likely to go on holiday.
Assuming a best case scenario on a dedicated T1:
ftp.m1ragehax0r.net userdb.sql 6.5970698E12 bytes completed in 397 days 16:22:18.368 @192.000KB/s
If my insurance company knows this information, then both the issuing banks and the grocery stores would immediately be subjected to a civil suit. Why? Because I actually read the privacy policies before I sign the dotted line, which indicate that they cannot submit this type of information to any third party without my consent. They can sell my name and address (well not anymore, I opted out in writing) but unless I give written permission and I am contacted by the party collecting the data beforehand, they cannot share my grocery list to my PPO.
They're called "comps" by the casinos. And they're really not free since to get them you have to gamble at a consistant rate. You only get back a certain percentage that you're expected to lose. The more you gamble (and lose), the more you get. You first start off with perhaps a free lunch or dinner. Then you go to rooms, tickets to a show, etc.
10 times worse than 6TB?
:)
Well if it can comfort you, it's probably not hosted on windows because 13TB is the limit of NTFS if I remember correctly
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
IDNG (I do not gamble) nor do I have the money to, but It is quite different keeping track of winnings and loosings and prefs for games than Safeway looking to see what I buy. I do not want my Health Insurance co seeing that I only use pure butter, not margrine, or that I got some Jack Daniels the other day. They could draw conclusions. (For instance the JD was for a maranade for Portibella Mushrooms) I do not see how the games you prefer to play and your wins and losses compare to tracking what food you buy. Greater harm can be done than this. (If you are dumb enough to gamble)
Welcome to the Entropy Bar, may I take your order?
Prepare to shoot me. I work in the property level IT department of a major casino (H*rr*h's). We have tons and tons of data. Everything is collected, slot play, table play, comp usage, etc. BUT, we are bound BY LAW not to divulge that info with another casino company in any form (which would be stupid anyway), or ANY outside company. When we mail invitations to customers, we have to pull the names based on criteria we think up, based on time played, denomination played, etc. We then provide an outside mailing house with the patron name and address, nothing more. And we DO NOT mail to anyone who chooses not to recieve mail. If we mail to someone who doesn't want mail or shouldn't recieve it because they have been banned or self-tresspased, we can get in BIG TIME trouble. That's it. Nobody gets to know that you ordered 'Debbie Does Everything' on the hotel payperview. Nobody knows that you lost your last paycheck (call 1-800-GAMBLER if you have a gambling problem or know someone who does). Only we know. And except for pulling mailing lists and trend analysis, we don't care. But to make smart marketing decisions you keep everything. You have to. We don't play by the same privacy rules as the rest of the world. We aren't allowed to, and probably wouldn't play like the rest of the world even if we could. Our customers are too important to us as a company.
"You can just sell something else.. what level of control is there ? " We can sell NOTHING. We are state regulated. "What kind of BIG TROUBLE are you talking about anyway ? " Monetary fines mostly. I can't think of any instances where a casino's gaming license has been revoked. But maybe by some smaller mom and pop shops, who knows. And before you say 'Oh Casino's don't care about fines. They have plenty of money.' We watch every penny and fines aren't in the budget. Wanna see a quick way to piss off management. Get the casino fined. And that is what the Gaming Boards love to do. I am telling you, whatever some of these lame dot-gones have done with selling/giving away of their customer data, WE DON'T. In any form, fashion, or idea.
--
I'd rather be lucky than good.
And this sir, Is the problem. The ACM and other engineering codes of ethics aren't meant for organizations to go by. They are meant for individuals. The biggest problem I see is that these ethical standards are blown off by the people(eg. Universities) who are producing computer science and "IT" professionals today. If all the people who came out of college actually believed in these ethics then who woul be left to replace them if a big corp decided to fire them for ethical reasons?
Speaking to a policeman in the UK, his experience was that Jack Straw wants to build the infrastructure for a police state without any police officers in it.
[The UK has one of the lowest number of officers per head of population for the whole of europe.]
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
If my numbers bear out, that's about 733KB per customer, and I can think of an awful lot that can fit in that amount of data.
What is important to ask is, can one opt out of this data collection? This is becoming a bigger and bigger issue, and privacy is important. I've been running the IE6 previews at work (familiarity with upcoming technology, or so I tell my boss), and I've let it notify me about third-party cookies. I had *no* idea it was this bad. Sites that don't even have banner ads have third-party cookies trying to plant themselves on my system. I don't mind first-party cookies, but the tracking issues on third-party....
In the same vein, I don't mind a hotel greeting me by name, but having them ask, "Will you be spending your normal $352.65 on the casino floor tonight?" would be downright spooky, not to mention who might be buying tapes of this data. Imagine a casino chain knowing you in Las Vegas, Atlantic City, and on the gambling cruises!
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
If you have any of the above, a great deal of information about you is already being trafficed through the corporate world, and the amount will only grow with every passing year. To take one seemingly harmless example, if you have a savings club card, you've already handed them on a silver platter to megabytes of data about yourself for your grocery store to sell. Then there's the magazines you subscribe to, the professional organizations you belong to, the ISP you use (don't think they don't mine logs for useful information). And don't forget your medical records. The databanks of the highest bidders certainly never will.
In the future, as storage gets cheaper, and transactions are increasingly done through electronic means, you can expect records to be kept of everything you buy, everywhere you go, everyone you correspond with.
While the government does present a danger to privacy*, the corporate world is clearly the largest threat. Corporations already manipulate us with slick marketing. Once highly targetted advertising arrives, we'll be so many fish in the corporate target barrel. We won't stand a chance. Get ready to drop any spare change you still have left.
Besides targetted advertising, blackmail is the other serious threat posed by corporate stockpiling of personal information. I could see a future where corporations solidify their control over our leaders by holding their past misdeeds over their heads. Campaign contributions and corporate political activism are bad enough. Just imagine when the corporations put themselves in a J-Edgar-like postion above the president.
*For example, I expect that within 5 years we'll see legislation forcing ISPs to verify the identities of users and log and store all traffic for a some minimum time frame; this minor step has already been taken over in the EU. I think it makes sense though, as a method to combat computer crime. The internet can't stay the wild-west forever.
If you have a problem with my views, REPLY, don't moderate!
You know, you should feature your wonderbox on Slashdot. It would make a great article and we all would love to see how you did it.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
I`m not gonna shoot anybody, my point was that the people in your system are probably not aware they are being traced this closely, and that this kind of knowledge, whatever restrictions might be on them, can potentially be used maliciously. I don`t doubt your integrity, but such things DO happen, and frankly I don`t want a Casino to be the judge of that. So it`s simple for me. I don`t do casino`s. Not that I ever wanted to do them anyway..
Actually it`s not about IT ethics that much, rather about the way Casino`s work with people (and their data). I don`t believe the restrictions you named make much of an impression. Maybe you can`t sell the raw data, but hey, raw data is just raw data. You can just sell something else.. what level of control is there ? None. What kind of BIG TROUBLE are you talking about anyway ?
Really, I`m very intersted in the subject of datamining. It`s a valuable scientific tool. But I`d rather not see it used to analyse people`s lives and calcualte the potential value of a 'customer', after which anything can happen, without the soul even being aware of it.
ignace.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
Our mailserver got stolen. Physically stolen. 2ce. There`s no such thing as 'impossible'.
(I work at a small university).
With great power comes great electricity bills.
In some ways, casinos are more mindful of privacy than other companies
right after putting on a discourse about saving 6TB of onion data about their customers. I`m sorry but I don`t want Casino`s to take care of my privacy. I want to have control of that myself, I don`t care how mindfull thoughtfull or nice these 160Million dollar companies may be. I remember altavista giving me a lifetime pop3 box, for which I was paying only3 years later.
Yielding control over your data over to an IT firm is usually a risk, but if their is malpractice from one of their employees abusing your data, chances are you can get them sued. On the other hand companies as big as these are much tougher to attack because they you know their laws and rights inside out and you probably somehow agreed to be in their system and surrender your private data. They are big brother, and they didn`t tell you. After all, you came to them. It`s your choice. Proving they misuse your data is so much more difficult. Besides they don`t really store 'you', they store profiles. 'You' is not important to them. It`s what makes you appealing to them that is important.
Actually I don`t mind them correlating the data with other data. It`s their right. I would mind them selling and getting rich on data of my life. It`s like they do not own a 'copyright' on my actions I undertake, and thus have no right to make money off of it. Obviously, they get '3rd party' data from elsewhere, so this is really going on. I didn`t think they were this far ahead, but apparently everything is possible.
I`m wondering what the Casino industry, which is collecting so much data about thier customers, is going to do with all that 'knowledge', as it also means power, a power the government might in the long run have to negotiate with. Hmm.. Maybe I read too much 'SnowCrash' by Stephenson.
ignace.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
At the risk of making all the posts to this article about SQL Server, can anybody tell me:
Does SQL Server really scale this well?
I thought that > 5TB was starting to stretch even Oracle and that you start looking to the DBs that the airline/financial industries run at that point. I had never even thought to consider SQL Server in the multi-TB database contender category. I had relegated it to the < 500GB application-space. Does anyone know if they are accomplishing this with a cluster of servers, and if so, how many?
Did the Mirage have the SQL Server development staff move down to Vegas?
Anybody here do IT for the Mirage?
Stephen
"If you care more about your privacy, then your path is fairly clear - don't apply for one of these cards!"
This is not at all clear. The article said one casino had information on a lot of people -- and it said only a fraction of them carried those customer cards. Therefore the casino collects information in other ways. So it is not clear how to protect your privacy.
"Why shouldn't they track that information? You chose to go and do the things you did on their property."
It is a common fallacy that because a company may do something, there should be no objection to it. From a legal or ethical perspective, the company is within its rights to collect information. But that does not mean it is beneficial. It does not we cannot dislike it, that we cannot take action of our own to oppose it.
By the same reasoning you give, that it is their casinos and their restaurants and their rooms, so also it is my money and my information and my communications with friends and other consumers. They can do what they want with their stuff, and I can respond by doing what I want with my stuff. I can withhold my money, I can ask my friends to complain, I can support organizations that promote things good for me, we can negotiate with companies for better policies, et cetera.
Now, why should we oppose this collection of information? Lots of reasons. Personally, I am fed up with being treated as a potential sucker all the time. It has gotten worse, and it is getting hard for me to avoid sales pitches even in my own home. Companies are finding more and more ways to invade my peace and quiet, my sanctuary. I throw away junk mail, but companies I once thought I had a satisfactory business relationship with now send ads in bills. Software I used to like has been hijacked to display ads. An ad here or there is not much harm, but, when it is continual, it is just too much.
Also, this information isn't always secured properly or used ethically. It gets out and is used for fraud or, occasionally, malice. If a company exposes me to damage like that, it isn't just their information anymore; it is mine, and I have a valid interest in seeing that it is controlled properly.
Another concern is that companies are becoming shrewder at manipulating people. Increasing data and increasing computer power are helping them. I am a very rational person, but I am not a perfect thinking machine. Every human being can be manipulated psychologically. At some point, the use of marketing techniques will become (or has become) unfair, because it subverts the reasoning process. A fair transaction is one involving consenting, informed adults -- people who have had an opportunity (although many may not use it) to think things through. If a company blasts away at thinking, the transaction is no longer fair. Continual repetitious ads, ingeniously engineered phrasing that leads a person to incorrect beliefs without actually being false phrasing, sales pitches calculated to go to a particular person's weakest point, and other such things create unfair circumstances.
If you doubt that, you obviously know nothing about what you are talking about.
The casino tracks all of your bets and determines how much you gamble per hour. You get comps based on this.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Any spambots checking for addresses might like:
loardgimpy@hotmail.com
"Goodness me, how unlike the FBI to abuse the trust of the American public." -- The Onion
Did the Coca-Karma story ever make it to the front page of Slashdot? (Using "Search" turned up nothing.)
Should it?
I personally found it a very, very disturbing read, particularly in light of the court cases that affect the Internet that are turning up in the Federal courts.
Okay, I figured they were talking about the Computerworld article, which is much better written. They're not
4 7_STO61799,00.html
link - http://www.computerworld.com/cwi/story/0,1199,NAV
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
Yes, it's scary. Yes, it's creepy. And yes, it's impressive. And they have better privacy, since they want to keep it to themselves! Capitalism at work.
Cool example: When you check in, they check your preferences. If you're a big gambler, they come over, greet you by name, make sure whatever drink you normally get is ready for you, etc, etc, etc. It's a damn impressive article.
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
I'd rather that none of the above had that information. If it only gets used for what they say they're using it for, it's probably okay. The problem is that information doesn't go away - much of what's been collected about people within the last few years is likely to be around for a lifetime.
Lots can happen within a lifetime. (Compare today's world with something pre-WW2, for example.) Assuming various privacy laws and data correlation restrictions (or what's left of them) don't lighten up in the future, and that's very unlikely, there's still the danger of information leaks.
For example, what would happen if someone were to steal MGM Mirage's database and post it on the net? Immediately millions of people's names and addresses would be available next to their estimated personal income, and potentially "interesting" information such as when they're likely to go on holiday.
The thing that most consumers don't realise is that when you're letting a company collect information about you, you're not just trusting the company. You're also trusting every one of their employees, and probably employees of related companies that you have no control or knowledge about.
In this case you're trusting their data security setup - not to mention the software engineers who wrote the software they're using. You're trusting every one of thousands or more casino workers who have direct access to some very personal information, and you're trusting the person who hired them not to make one mistake with that many chances.
I'm not sure if there's an obvious way to stop this, because people will always be collecting data about other people and in the computer age it's going to get easier and easier to store, mine and correlate to make new information. I'd at least like to see the following:
Important computer organisations (eg. ACM) really pressing their codes of ethics' seriously. There must be lots of people in ACM at the moment, for example, who have pirated software and don't have a second thought about it. I know lots of society doesn't take it seriously, but if the ACM isn't going to take it seriously then I don't think section 1.5 should be in the code of ethics.
General ethical standards in computer employees really suck at the moment. Information management ethics needs to be a more serious part of the education system. There are lots of IT workers who have essentially sold out to their management. There are some lines that I simply won't cross without resigning to find a better job, and when we're approaching them I let my boss know what I will and won't do. Doctors have professional codes of ethics - they don't go selling inforamtion about their patients - and IT professionals should, too.
Standard and well recognised privacy policies in place for organisations to use. They would include things such as properly destroying collected personal data after a certain timeframe (very important) or when the company ceases to exist, not correlating it or using it for unspecified purposes, and so on.
If marketed properly so that ordinary consumers understand it, organisations could stamp an approval label on their service, and people could decide based on that whether they want to trust the organisation or not.
===
Reading things like this scare the shit out of me.. mostly because I know that if one company is admitting to something, another company has probably done ten times worse.
not sure if it's been discussed yet, but here's a book that's right on topic : Database Nation: The Death of Privacy in the 21st Century By Simson Garfinkel It's been a while since I've read it, but I highly recommend.
Those things, that let you pass through the tolls quickly (and, usually, cheaper). They are the worst. They identify you car -- you can not transfer the cartridge to another vehicle legally (and it is enforced). They date/time of every toll crossing is recorded and stored for who knows how long.
Worse, the information belongs to government -- not a private company. The excuse is, that it helps reduce fraud, but as long as they continue to accept cash (easily counterfited -- toll collectors don't check the banknotes) the excuse is lame.
And you can't just say: "Well, don't use it". Because more and more toll-gates are devoted to "EZ-Pass only" and the gap in between the EZ-Pass payments and cash is widening.
I think, this things should be anonymous. You buy the device once and then purchase refills like calling cards... Similar system works for NYC MTA card -- for public transportation. It can work for cars too...
Gambling is a luxury. Driving on the public roads is (usually) not. Pick you battles...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
why do I have a feeling that most of the infomation in this huge amount consists of records like:
old lady #416236 12-1-2001 8:50 played a nickel slot - lost
old lady #416236 12-1-2001 8:51 played a nichel slot - lost
I mean, a major problem with many data mining systems is the amount of garbage that is thrown in with the "useful" info...
I mean _anyone_ (well anyone with a huge wallet) could strap a bunch of hard drives together and write random 1's and 0's and say they have XX terabytes of data...
I wonder how much _infomation_ is in these databases.....
(define the-question (or (* 2 b) (not (* 2 b))))
Terra server runs just fine on SQL and Windows. Bash Microsoft in areas they deserve it, these immature comments about MS products are incorect and counterproductive. There are plenty of true things about MS you could pick on them for without having to make shit up.
Everytime a new toy comes out they test it first in the field to get a feel of what people will say. Although not exactly the same it is along the same lines. Casinos are companies just like Mattel is. And companies are in the business to make money. By pleasing the customer and giving them what they think they need. This is just evidence to show how intelligent the people behind the scenes really are. I went to a casino a while back and the same lady KNEW what drink I liked and refilled it for me once i was finished with it. Sure it is on a smaller scale but it has the same effect. And that is that the people at the casino "really care about you". Is it true? Yeah they care, they care about your money. Your money is nothing without you so they want to please you. And they will go to any extent to please you more than any other casino, because a free room and some drinks vs spending a grand in a day isn't 'a wash'. Personally, I am not surprised.
When the casinos sell their customers database, just imagine the kind of junk mail high-rollers must be getting in their mailbox !
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
When you arrive, and there are tickets to a show you want, or maybe a free meal at a restaurant they know you enjoy going to, you feel like you're being taken care of for a few days.
>All the 'automatic' games are computer controlled. A casino is required to give back a certain % of their profits, so for example, if it's a busy night, you are more likely to make money off the slot machines.
That's a false observation about how casinos really run their slots. I worked for a slot manufacturer for 6 years, here's how it works:
Every individual slot machine is set up with a payout table encoded in ROM. The hard-coded table decides the payout percentage for that particular machine over a large number of trials (usually in the millions of pulls). The ROM is checksummed and verified against a registered chip stored with the state gaming board. The ROM is also verified by an independent laboratory hired by the state gaming board to make sure the math works out correctly. The payout percentage *CANNOT* be changed on the fly, depending if it's a hot or cold night in the casino.
But here's the catch: slot machines in casinos are required by state law to pay out an *average minimum* award percentage. In Nevada it's 75%, in New Jersey it's 83%. So in NV that means for every machine you have programmed to pay out 90%, you can have another somewhere in the casino set to 60%. So guess what casinos do? They take the high roller slots (like the $1/$5/$10 slots), and program them a little higher. Then they take the low roller slots (0.05, 0.25, 0.50) and lower them a little bit. But THEN they'll take some of the low-roller slots and sprinkle them with high-paying tables next to the low-paying ones. Games by the door, for example, may pay slightly better to let passers-by think the casino is paying out big that night.
The magic of desigining a slot floor is a skilled art, and they actually teach it at UNLV.
The tracking systems, however, cannot decide or change the pre-determined math in slots. That's the law.
Big Brother isn't the government, it's the Organized crime underworld, otherwise known as The Mob
how nice...
One casino datamining and discriminating is bad enough. But can you imagine a... of, oh you know...
~
A casino is just like any other business. They want to protect their market, they want to make sure the customers feel that they should spend their money, and they want to go after the almighty buck.
The reason they collect all the data is most likely for security, and for profit. It would be poor judgement for them to sell most of this data, but by having all of this data, the casino can give a gambler a more 'personalized experience'.
Everything in a casino is about making money. They make the ceiling and floor 'loud' so that you look forward, not up or down. When you look forwards you see slot machines and tables and other games. Bells, whistles and sirens are set to attract people to areas so that they will spend their money. The food is priced cheap, so that you'll spend more money gambling since you are saving so much eating.
Everything in a casino is highly advanced. You are under constant watch from floor bosses, security cameras, and the like. All the 'automatic' games are computer controlled. A casino is required to give back a certain % of their profits, so for example, if it's a busy night, you are more likely to make money off the slot machines. If the casino is fairly empty, maybe not. I have also heard stories from some guards who used to work at casinos that some of the games are timed so that if you are not playing them during an hour, you will not win. A casino is pretty advanced technology-wise.
So I am not surprised that they have so much market data on their customsers. Many casinos now even have cards that you can use with 'credits' that work the slot machines and other gambling sites. These cards allow the casino to track gambling habits of their patrons.
But in the end, security is probably the top reason for all the data on the customers. The casino wants to make money, and by keeping track of what you are doing, they can make sure your not cheating, and that the house remains in the black.
Just don't be surprised if they have a nice government- style database, complete with pictures of everyone who has ever entered the casino.
[Something witty and intelligent should have appeared here.]
[Something witty and intelligent should have appeared here.]
{Traicovn}
1: The worst database normalization job ever, or
2: An offensive amount of specific material being kept on each customer.
Okay, no onions on your burger? That's a boolean false. Okay, okay, they've probably got more information on betting patterns, but are you going to tell me they've got more than half a meg of this sort of thing? Per customer? Does that make sense?!
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
So what ? Casinos have long reserved the right, AFAIK, to kick anyone they want out, if they have even the slightest suspicion that someone may be cheating. Note this is suspicion, NOT proof. You can get kicked out for using a cell phone in a casino. You can get kicked out for taking a photo. And yes, you can get kicked out if they think you are counting cards, or otherwise cheating. If people aren't comfortable with being tracked, then they should not get the cards.
One of the casinos had larger than expected losses on their table games last year. They got some consultants (with loose lips) to run some statistical analysis
Given the sheer amount of money casinos pull in from table games, these 'few' and 'lucky' individuals would have to pull in a HUGE amount to noticeably skew a table game's results (which, BTW, were almost CERTAINLY gains and not losses). If these were indeed high rollers, the casinos would be folly to ban them unless they were quite certain they were cheating - because casino operators are smart enough to know that if they are not cheating, the high rollers will make the casino money almost every time. Trust them to make the decisions that will help their bottom line.
And by the way, cheating at one casino is only likely to get someone barred at one group's casinos - as the article points out, casinos have a strong disincentive to share information.
People may not know the extent of the collection, or the sophistication of the data analysis, but that is just a matter of degree.
The people who use these cards want the casino to watch them play. They want the casino to know how much they are playing, because they know that the more they spend, the more rewards they will get. They want the casino to know how they are playing - most casinos will offer better comps to people who play for big money on table games, even if the people who play all day on the nickel slots are spending just as much.
The promotional material for these cards is designed to give the impression that if you're a better gambler (from the house's perspective) then you could be entitled to better comps. They even go so far as to tell you what sort of behaviour they're looking for, in the hope that you will become a better customer :)
That pretty much says "We're watching you, and tracking your gaming habits, in return for these rewards."
The casinos are not trying to hide the fact that they do this. That's why they were so open about it in the article, even bragging about how well they can judge a gambler by the information they collect.
If they didn't want people to know that they were being tracked, then you would have seen a very different article here. Most likely, they would have had a lot of "No comment" quotes from casino executives.
Living better through chemicals
My original point, though, was that you did know that they were collecting info on your habits.
That surprised me too, when I read the article the first time. It seems, though, that the way they are getting this information is by getting people to use their cards in the casino restaurants (something I haven't seen).
If you are giving them your card when you order your hamburger (with onions), then you've got to expect that they have access to that data if they want it. If you don't want them to collect that kind of thing, just don't swipe the card (and of course, don't charge it to your room, either)
Living better through chemicals
Errm... yeah... I'm not as happy about that. Reading the article again, I see that Harrah's has been gathering information for six years now, probably before the cards were implemented (unsubstantiated guess :)
Presumably, they are getting this info through other means, like through your room number if you are staying at the casino, and if you bill things like food or telephone charges to your room, or if you have a line of credit at the casino.
The amount of information they can get from these sources must be insignificant compared to the loyalty cards, though. And they still can't gather anything from the person who walks in from the street and gambles with cash.
Living better through chemicals
Well, seeing as this story is about physical casinos, here's how it actually works:
If you are a regular casino customer, you can apply for, and receive, a loyalty card (you don't even have to be a regular, all you have to do is apply. It doesn't even cost anything.)
Every time you use this card, the casino gathers data on what you are doing, and for how long (how much you are spending - or winning). They do this because this information is valuable to them, and you do it because they are willing to pay (comps) for that information.
Everybody using a card like this knows that the casino is tracking them, collecting information about their habits. That's why they use the card. If they didn't think that the casino was watching, then why would they use it in the first place?
If you care more about your privacy, then your path is fairly clear - don't apply for one of these cards! If you've already got one, then just stop using it. The casino is perfectly happy to let you walk in off of the street and lose as much money as you want - in cash if you prefer it that way!
This is about as opt-in a system as you could ever ask for. Not only that, but it's a fair trade - you actually get something valuable in return for your information. And, as the article says, they generally don't even sell your information, as most companies would.
This seems like the most responsible use of private information that I've ever seen.
Of course, if you're worried about privacy in casinos in the first place, then maybe you should just avoid them altogether. There're more cameras per square foot in those places than just about any public place on the planet...
Living better through chemicals
But the article also mentioned about a string of mergers in the gambling business. What is the difference between sharing information inside a mega-corporation and having one company arbitrarily share your information with others? How can you know that every hotel|casino|company affiliated with the casino you go into has the same philosophy as the casino itself? You can't. You also can't be sure that the casino, upon getting a huge $$$ offer from an insurance or credit company won't end up selling that information -- they are in the business of making money after all.
good point - and it seems to be coming to light faster than I imagined. Only problem is, we've now got David Blunkett as Home Secretary (secretary of state for you US-ers out there), Jack 'Fascist Bastard' Straw is now foreign sec (having replaced goggle-eyed ugly bastard Robin Cook).
You think that being blind would have made Blunkett a more caring, pleasant person but apparently he's described as being 'more right wing than Jack Straw'....which is very worrying indeed!
-Nano.
'Is they called Class A because they is da best?' - Ali G.
I saw a friend of mine at the local Safeway swipe her savings club card as I was walking in. When I got to the checkout I noticed a sign beside the card reader, "Forgot your savings club card? Just type on your phone number" Well I don't have a card but I do know Susan's phone number. I entered it and it worked like a charm. It works three ways: I get my $.50 off on oranges, Susan gets more "points," and Safeways's data gets corrupted ...Wow that is the second time in an hour she bought a case of beer...
Free cell phone tracking
And if you or anyone else read the article, it states that the information is worth $138k per hour. So I really don't think that the licensing fees, nor the hardware requirements are much more than a pimple on someones ass.
What I find funny is that the dweeb who keeps talking about MySQL on his 486. Hell, I wouldn't trust MySQL with 600 gigs of data. At least with MS, I can pay for the ability to have someone's head on the line. What do I get with MySQL?
Cost of ownership is an issue for every corporation. However, if you believe in the TPC principal, I do believe that MS generally wins. Now if you believe in reality, then MS probably still wins. What would the cost be for some Sun E10000's with 8gb of RAM and a bunch of CPU's, clustered? Hmm. Probably 5x the cost of a Compaq 8 way box. Now we won't even get into the cost comparison of Oracle versus MS SQL Server. So from my quick math, (no relationship to fuzzy math) I would say that SQL Server with Win2k Datacenter on Compaq boxes wins.
dave
- Dan I.
Will safeway start treating certain customers preferentially once it their spending habits show them to be "favored customers."
"Right this way Mrs. Arnold - we have a free room for you right behind the meat department"
One of the casinos had larger than expected losses on their table games last year. They got some consultants (with loose lips) to run some statistical analysis on their database to find people who won an improbable amount. They had information on some of their big money customers down to a bet-by-bet record.
The consultants identified more than a few "lucky" individuals. I'm not sure what happened to them, but I'd bet that they're not welcome in that establishment anymore.
The truly troubling result of this is that those people, who were not conclusively found breaking any rules, are probably now indexed around the world as undesirable gamblers. Can you imagine having a string of good luck at the Taj and then walking into some casino in Paris and being asked to leave the premises?
Grocery stores don't bother with this. They are starting to get into the game with things like Air Miles, which associate personal info with exact product items, locations and times. But the payback isn't nearly so large; people just don't spend thousands of dollars a day at grocery stores.
Probably the only other industry that really has the resources and desire for this information is the tobacco industry. You can bet they do their best to track trends. They have a big disadvantage, though, namely that they don't have direct access to consumers. You can be sure that the healthcare industry keeps the data, but they don't have as much concern since medical treatments are much less discretionary than grocery selection or casinos. I wouldn't be surprised to see them team up with tobacco companies though, since they have pretty much all the requisite information.
Even Slashdot wants to hide some things
When you read stories like this one, you start to realize that "Big Brother" is "The Mob" is "The Big Corporations" is "The Government". All of which maintain large quantities of data about their "undesirables". Beware of the unmarked black helicopters.
You never know how information about you is going to be used:
The expediency with wich former Chilean dictator A. Pinochet incarcerated his political opponents was astonishing. In a matter of days all the members (big and small) of the Socialist Party and other organizations that supported the democratically elected Socialist presdient, Salvador Allende, were imprisoned.
How did Pinochet's newly born regime achieved this? Easy, he got the record of the memebership of the Socialist Party, so it was a futile excercise of pick and choose.
You never know how information about you is going to be used and by who, thus you should give away as little information about you as possible.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Just proves that old adage that people will tell their bookmaker what they won't tell their priest.
What it comes down to is this: as you are after the casinos money (and they, of course, are after yours), you are far more likely to respond truthfully to a invasive questionnaire from them than you are one from Amazon.com or anyone else.
The fact that they are more likely to check up on the information provided to them (to protect themselves financially and legally) means that they are less likely to get people lying through their teeth on their books.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Maybe they'll notice I NEVER win, and just give me some money for all of my troubles.
.... expect to see something like this in your cell phones:
This is ridiculous. The bill condoning the cookies is okayed. They say "healthy business practices", then the casinoes used it. What's next? Pr0n sites? Oh my, maybe you'd got a Pr0n magazine sampler in your snail-mail box just because they can get your address info...
We're just victims anyways.... Could anybody stop this?
--
Error 500: Internal sig error
That has to be a pretty interesting job, to put together these massive data systems to retrieve all of this information. Say what you want about the ethics of the whole thing, but I say give their IT people the credit they're due for making something like that possible. If anything I'd like to know more details besides the fact that one of them use SQL Server.
"On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog!" - a dog
Can you imagine what would happen if some online merchant tried to do the same on the internet? They'd be sued and harassed and forced to back down. This is what basically happened with Doubleclick.
And yet this is the very reason why the net is a very unfavorable place for commerce. This is what caused the internet bubble to pop, and future internet innavation to go downhill rather than uphill.
Take it from me, if you all want the internet to be as rich a playing field as that of the offline world, we'll have to be willing to give up some in return.
---------
Did you just fart? Or do you always smell like that?
eTrade SUCKS
All they're really doing is tracking patterns -- whether or not people who buy orange juice are also going to buy vodka -- so they can use those patterns for stocking, marketing and store layout. To that end it doesn't matter what your name or fax number is.
All they need to know is that shoppper #12345 buys diapers and beer every Saturday night. If that's a trend with multiple shoppers they might try putting a particular brand of beer they're trying to push on an endcap of the diapers aisle.
They might also learn that they sell far more tortillas on Thursdays than any other day of the week so from a stocking standpoint they need to be sure they have a healthy supply on those days.
By using a multiple location database they can also learn more about the "migratory" patterns of their shoppers -- maybe they buy certain products at one store during weekdays and different products from a different store on weekends or evenings. (Probably indicates that they work in the area of the weekday store and live near the other store; and that they buy certain products while they're at work, and other products for home)
At any rate, the person's personal information isn't necessary for this kind of tracking and shoppers are probably MUCH more willing to use the club cards if they know that they didn't have to give any personal information to get one.
-Coach-
Perhaps the world's greatest tragedy is that ignorance is not impotence.
Based on the article, this level of sophistication in tracking technology is worth the investment for companies that rake in "$138,889 [in revenue] per hour." Let's compare that to the revenue reports of some of our favorite companies (based on dividing their quarterly revenue by 90 days at 24 hours/day):
Microsoft: $2,988,888/hr (Q3,2001)
RedHat: $10,374/hr (Q3,2001)
IBM: $9,722,222/hr (Q1,2001)
GE: $14,089,814/hr (Q1,2001)
Corel: $16,666/hr (Q2,2001)
Sony: $27,091,667/hr (Q1,2001)
Right now, casinos have the advantage that you actually walk into them, and thus can be photographed, recognized, identified by your frequent-loser card, etc. But in terms of revenue, casinos don't even compare to the amount of money tossed around by big business (and open-source companies don't even compare to casinos in terms of revenue). So if you think for a moment that this kind of data mining begins and ends with the small-time players of the gambling industry, think again!
(P.S. Yes, IBM's revenue is larger than Microsoft's. But their net profit is smaller. If you look at their investor info, you can see that the profit margin on software is about 80%, where as that on hardware is about 30%. Add that to the fact that IBM has a R&D department that actually does serious science (i.e., they get published in peer-reviewed journals), and it's easy to understand why IBM's net profits are lower than those of MS).
Go Lance Armstrong!
On stereophonic equipment, the monaural sound obtained through multiple channels will enhance your listening pleasure.
I once had a pizza order-taker read my credit card number back to me... the one I had used the last time I called, and hadn't told her during that call. Just because I called from the same number, they were sure I was the same person and could be trusted with the number, and could pay them with it. I could just tell she was enjoying my reaction to how much she knew (surprise mostly, mild annoyance, not anger); I bet she didn't keep that job long, she was having entirely too much fun with a touchy subject (that town was weird though... all the fast food service was the worst I've ever seen).
Now, I want good data out there... in aggregate. I want places to know what people want to buy; it means more of the stuff you want with less waste and better prices. I'd even like to have the option of asking them to remember my preferences. I don't ever want them assuming they know who I am, or figuring out my identity, without me explicitly telling them.
I mean, it's like you're not safe to buy 50 bags of fertilizer from different stores and 20 tanks of diesel from different gas stations over a single weekend with cash any more...
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Then it dawned on me... (as I work third shift at a Texaco and cleaned out the out-of-code candy) ... companies can save and make lots of money, much more that the cost of implementing these computer systems, by having the most likely brand / item / game for customers that frequent the store most often. By minimizing loss in supermarkets by out of code items, and by offering perks that a large percentage of people would want in a casino, they are achieving cost effectiveness. In fact, a lot of supermarkets offer discounts to people who help them keep their prices low by this method. Doesn't seem so evil to me.
But also, by what right do companies do this information gathering and using? Well, by right of free trade. The honest companies that ask for this up front, and don't sneak it out of your computer by 'registration' of software, are attaching a certain condition to a specific sale. Since the companies hold the item /service, and the user holds the exchange medium, BOTH must choose the conditions of the sale, and agree to it. In fact, a company may choose to only make a sale in which they collect personal data. I know we collect personal data for credit reasons at the other job I work for, but only because we can't afford to have a customer bounce a check or default on payment on a $100,000 machine. As long as the companies are explicit in stating that they are taking the information at the time of the sale, it's perfectly legal and moral.
Do not equate this, however, with the sale of this information from one company to the next. Not all companies do this. And if they do, and don't list it in the terms of the sale agreement, (whether its for a slim jim or an e-beam system), they should be sued. My only suggestion to those afraid otherwise is, be an informed consumer.
Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
Not everybody is paranoid. And some people have even been known to *gasp* be trusting.
Not being paranoid, and misplacing trust don't mean you don't "deserve privacy".
what the hell is a 'junk character', anyway?
I once worked in an office in Long Island next to a stock brokerage firm and I actualy heard brokers bragging about prospects database they owned -- it apparently had social security numbers along with the usual profile analytics stuff. These scum bags would call up those people -- mostly retirees and lonely old people and sell them penny stocks and they would acutually manage to get their money out of their social security cheques. (I have heard that them movie BoilerRoom may have been based on these blood sucking vermins)
My point is that the information that these companies are collecting and accumulating are harmless as long as I young and able; once once I get old and feeble, this accumulated information can and will be used by these scum bags or else sold off to another bottom feeder.
Laws are meant to protect people. We have laws to protect us from muggers, robbers,theives. Why not laws to protect us from Profilers ?
I see two problems to this:
Just wondering.
D/\ Gooberguy
Karma: Meh (Mostly from meh.)
Yes, you are shooting in the dark, but your kind of close. Casinos don't use 486's too often.
I used SQL on a much smaller scale than a large info-gathering corporation, but if MSSQL goes slow on my system when compared to mySQL, then I am pretty sure that the problem will scale up. It's just the same code getting executed faster. It would be like an Acura NSX towing a bicycle trailer compared to a Dodge Ram towing a boat. The forces are just greater on the truck. Your "gasoline" (if your engine were the CPU), in this (somewhat unlikely) analogy is either MSSQL or mySQL. If mySQL works good in the small car, why shouldn't it work good in the truck? Yes, I know it's dumb, but you started it.
D/\ Gooberguy
Karma: Meh (Mostly from meh.)
Well, I overclocked my 486 to 100mhz and threww in an extra hard drive! It sorts a 6TB MSSQL database in 1.5 billion years!!!
D/\ Gooberguy
Karma: Meh (Mostly from meh.)
There are plenty of true things about MS you could pick on them for without having to make shit up.
I'm not making anything up. Have you ever tried running win2k and MSSQL on a 486SX running at 33mhz? It just doesn't work. I have used mySQL on Linux and it works fine. Maybe you should get some real life experience with SQL instead of talking to me about Terra server running on a giant cluster of win2k boxes. D/\ Gooberguy
Karma: Meh (Mostly from meh.)
It sure gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling.
A high-roller experience for the common person? The best experience imaginable? What exactly would they call it when I have my car valet parked, and when I ask the valet to get it, he tells me (30 minutes later) that they seem to have misplaced it?
Maybe they should use their database to keep track of where they park peoples' cars.
The law already allows for placing yourself into the position of "ward", incapable of spending your money unwisely. Or, at least, all at once.
Please don't misunderstand me, I think such people deserve to be drawn and quartered. So many others also believe such "Confidence Artists" are evil and cause harm that it is already against the law.
How about this one: You are free to not patronize their establishment. Or buy their stocks.
Knowing that they are compiling this data, as a customer I would like the option of reviewing the records they have on me, and to delete or correct data that I disagree with.
Does your objection require a law? Or does it merely require making them aware of a new service that you would like?
The power to take your business elsewhere is the ultimate power over a business. They want you to come back. Tell them what you want. If they object, then leave.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
It's not illegal, the casino's just don't like it. Since the casinos are private property, they simply ask anyone they suspect of card counting to leave the premises.
No wonder they make those meal plans so damn cheap with those magnetic cards. By them sacrificing some profit, they gain TREMENDOUS marketing databases to make you buy more stuff later. enigmabom-
Some people tell me I am sleeping my life away, I simply tell them I am living my dreams.
Working for experian, formerly TRW, I have seen this firsthand. All we did was collect information. Companies pay us to store all this information. Consumers pay us to see the information we are holding on them. Other business buy this information from us. We could narrow it down so precisely it was really marvelous. If company x wanted the name, address and phone number of all people age 25-29 married with two vehicles, one child, and a house while having less than $5000 in credit card debt we could have it delivered to them in hours if needed.
What makes information so valuable is you can use/sell it multiple times at no additional cost. That is why I try not to let anyone get any information from me anymore. If they want to make money off me they are gonna have to work hard at it.
-Many of the casinos are not running anything that resembles Microsoft, more like IBM Mainframes with AS/400.
-Comps. are tax deductible. They fall under advertising. So don't think that the casino's are being nice when they comp. you. It's not really hurting them.
-For the most part, player tracking is unregulated. Electronic games (like slot machines) are regulated, in most states in the US (probably all that have gaming, but I'm not sure). And the casinos will gather ridiculous info. like how long you played and how much you won or lost so they can continue their facade of wanting you to have fun, and being on your side.
-And finally (although its been said early) it's their right. If you fill out the form to get the card you agree to let them track you. It's purely voluntary. In the industry, these systems are referred to as player tracking systems, so there is no false pretense of it being anything else.
And a couple of off topic notes:
-No, they do not pump extra oxygen into casinos, but yes they are designed so you can easily get on the floor but not off. The carpet has random patterns so you will wander. There are no clocks or windows. There are cash machines everywhere, and if you think you can make money playing slots, you're stupid. They are controlled by computers, and have pseudo-random number generators better than most programming libraries or operating systems, so if you win once, stop
-There are slot machines now running versions of DOS, windows, and UNIX varients...so much for the old mechanical wheels...
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." -Homer Simpson
I live in a country where there are no legalised casinos and very limited numbers of gambling machines in existence.
It strikes me that there's a severe privacy issue here that could prove serious - consider the situation where there are two employees going for the same job. They appear to be entirely equal, and the decision isn't easy. The employer calls the casino and discovers that one is a compulsive gambler, and therefore the other is hired.
If gambling is your dirty little secret, do you want this information stored somewhere? Even if it can only be retrieved in certain scenarios?
http://www.themeparks.ie
i know this is gonna get me flamed but its a risk i'm willing to take. after so much bashing of MS gotta give em some credit ... sql server has come along way and its easy to use too.
while there's no doubting you can get better performance in those hand tweaked *nix based solutions
microsoft works!
And some people have even been known to *gasp* be trusting.
Alright, yeah, some people are trusting. That's usually a good thing, except:
1) Online
2) When money is involved
Maybe an opt out policy is in order? Or an opt in?
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http://nemilar.net - Not your grandmother's soup kitchen
I tried your link and got a 404 message-the page doesn't exist. Could you check this out so I can read the article? Thanks.