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Fourth Indiana Jones Installment

Kryptonomic writes: "According to "this article, Harrison Ford and Sean Connery and contemplating teaming up for a fourth Indiana Jones movie possibly set in (surprise, surprise) Atlantis. It is rumoured that George Lucas and Steven Spielberg will produce and direct the movie, respectively." Listen? Can you here the music? Can ya?

72 of 195 comments (clear)

  1. Fnord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    I wonder if they'll find a great white pyramid with a bright red eye on it...

  2. Ford, Connery, Lucas, Spielberg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    Aren't most of them dead? I'm pretty sure Sean Connery died sometime before he made that Alcatraz movie. Lucas and Speilberg have been dead for at least 10 years. Harrison Ford might be showing signs of life, though.

  3. what the hell will they call it? by Wakko+Warner · · Score: 2
    Indiana Jones and the Colostomy Bag?

    Indiana Jones and the Prescription Viagra?

    Indiana Jones and the Motorized Wheelchair of Death?

    - A.P.

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    "Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
  4. Re:who takes over as Indy? by Enry · · Score: 2

    Now you're just being MEAN. ;)

  5. Please no by smartin · · Score: 3

    I really like Harrison but he is just too long in the tooth for the part. Think Roger Moore in his last few bonds (or his first few for that matter :). I'd go see a younger Indy, say in the period somewhere between young indian and raiders. That would put it in the 20's or so. Prime egyptology!

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  6. who takes over as Indy? by Tumbleweed · · Score: 2

    Turnabout being fair play and all that, I'd say Alec Baldwin should take over as Indy. :)

  7. Re:We named the dog Indiana... by Genom · · Score: 2

    Indiana Jones and the Grand Inquisitor?

  8. Re:Inspired by Tomb Raider? by Jonathan · · Score: 2

    I have a co-worker who thinks that Tomb Raider was similar to the Indy movies, but the Indy movies at least made sense. None of the stupid stuff like finding *both* pieces of a triangle to stop the bad guys when merely destroying one half would solve the problem.

  9. Re:Aging archeologists by unitron · · Score: 2
    Since he knew a lot more about Nazis and the geography of the areas they occupied than the average Allied officer, chances are that Indiana Jones spent WWII in the OSS, and then the Occupation in one of those Monuments, Fine Arts, and Archives outfits that hunted up Nazi loot and records in abandoned mines.
    His father probably served in a similar capacity for England.

    Some Hollywood makeup magic could condense that 12 years to 4 to 6.

    A good script could have Indy and Dad racing against the Allied advance and the Nazi scramble for survival, escape, and Swiss bank accounts in the last months of the war to get to the spear they stabbed Jesus in the side with or some Norse mythology artifact to keep Adolf from using it to complete some supernatural A-bomb strength super weapon.

    Maybe while they're at it they could single (or double)-handedly prevent the Alpine Redoubt that Ike feared from coming into existance.

    And of course the film could throw in some foreshadowing of the cold war to come.

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  10. Re:If it's like Episode One by unitron · · Score: 2

    Indiana Jones and the CGI character from Hell :-)

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  11. Re:Which fast food chain will be shilling for it? by unitron · · Score: 2
    "How many asaults on our intelligence does McDonalds feel is needed?"

    As many as their menu provides assaults on our appetites?

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  12. Re:This isn't P.C. by unitron · · Score: 2

    Elsewhere I suggested Jones and his dad in the European theater during WWII, but pre-Pearl Harbor run-ins with Imperial Japan would work too. Kind of like the old Brass Monkey bar scene.

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  13. Re:Lucas/Spielburg by unitron · · Score: 2
    "...otherwise the people of Atlantis might be Jar Jar's cousins."

    In which case the destruction and disappearance of Atlantis was a mercy from
    Divine Providence.

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  14. Re:The Last Last Crusade... MOO! by ocie · · Score: 2

    And no jar-jar. Although seeing the horrible things that get done to people in the Indiana Jones movies, maybe having a Jar-jar sacrifice would be a good idea.

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  15. Indy in a wheel chair by Archfeld · · Score: 2

    pushing his ancient dad in an Iron lung ? Somehow it looses its' appeal. Unless it is Indy staying at home and sending a younger assistant into the wilds to find stuff I am not buying it...

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    errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
    1. Re:Indy in a wheel chair by Bonker · · Score: 2

      I can agree with that. From the article, Harrison ford is 59. Sean, I'm guessing, is pushing what, 70? 75?

      Can we seriously epect a lot in the way of extreme exertion out of these two?

      Both Ford and Connery are in great shape, and they can do a hell of a lot wit' dem newfangled computer-thingies these days, but I would be kidding if I said I wasn't going to be watching a possible IJ4 the same way I watched Trek 6:

      "Damn, Deforest Kelly's gettin' up there. How long you think he has left?"

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  16. Re:Aging archeologists by DavidTC · · Score: 2

    Ah, yes, Harrison Ford, Sean Connery, George Lucas, and Steven Spielberg are working in secret on the movie. Riiiight.

    -David T. C.

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    If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  17. idle speculation by option8 · · Score: 2

    However, a spokeswoman at Paramount Pictures in Los Angeles told BBC News Online: "These rumours come round every couple of months. It's idle gossip."

    looks like a slow news day for slashdot and the BBC, both.

    next, you'll be posting an article about Apple being bought by Disney or some such...

  18. Re:Lets see... by option8 · · Score: 2

    excuse me, but we atlantans don't take kindly to idle talk of being bombed or enslaved... we've had some trouble with that in the past, and it's not nice to rile up those old feelings..

  19. Re:Lets see... by option8 · · Score: 2

    the olympic park bombing is what i was referring to, specifically, but being burned to the ground is another thing i had in mind

  20. I know the ending... by sharkey · · Score: 4

    Just don't let the Nazis test the oricalcum machine on you, Indy!

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  21. Re:Learn to spell, Taco by Polo · · Score: 2

    I really wish there were a way to quietly report typo-type errors without having to post a comment...

  22. I thought the setting... by Raleel · · Score: 2

    would be a nursing home

    Indiana Jones: Life with Arthritis

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  23. Re:That sounds familiar by jfunk · · Score: 2

    Yeah, I remember the rumour when that game was new.

    In fact, it was the first thing I thought of upon reading this story. I'll just file it in the "unlikely" pile in my brain.

    It would be cool to see that story in something other than 320x240, though.

  24. Re:That sounds familiar by jfunk · · Score: 2
    For those keeping score, that's yet another reason to consider the classic pre-dumbed-down SCUMM interface the pinnacle of adventure game UI design.


    Actually, I *loved* the interface. I spent more money in my Windows days on Lucasarts games than anything else. Every once in awhile, I attempt to play those games under DOSemu as I no longer have any trace of MS on my hard drive...

    I'm totally dissapointed that Loki releases nothing like it. There are way too many FPS games these days.

    I say this as an owner of 7 Loki games, too.
  25. imdb by boarder · · Score: 2

    And, according to IMDB, the hopes aren't very high for this sequel.

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  26. Look Closely... by boarder · · Score: 4
    I don't think this is a case of Lucas milking a dead cash cow. It looks like the studio execs (we all know how Krusty the Clown feels about them) are just kicking around the idea (as well as the dead horses). Lucas hasn't signed anything.

    The hopes don't seem so high from other sources... According to IMDB, the hopes aren't very high for this sequel. Also, according to the article from this BBC story, this is a very common rumor that pops up every few months.

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    IANAL, but I play one on /.
  27. Re:The last time Lucas made an Indiana Jones movie by cr0sh · · Score: 2

    No!

    This has to be the one IJ adventure that was most like old-Hollywood serials from the 30's and 40's - it even had the "look" (albeit in color) and the "campiness" reminiscent of that time.

    Of course, I also liked "The Mummy" (haven't seen "Returns" yet)...

    Worldcom - Generation Duh!

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  28. uhhh. The Fate of Atlantis maybe? by QuantumG · · Score: 2

    Played and finished the game, it was a few hours of entertainment, but a hell of a yawner. Why not come up with a decent plot? Or let the dead horse alone.

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    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:uhhh. The Fate of Atlantis maybe? by Tom7 · · Score: 2

      Really? This was one of my favorite adventure games. It was really cool all the different ways that you could complete it, and had some of the nicest pixel graphics I've seen...

  29. Hehe... by brogdon · · Score: 5

    Indiana Jones and the Broken Hip of Doom.

    Christ the guy's already 58 years old. By the time they start filming he'd be over 60!


    --Brogdon

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    1. Re:Hehe... by Dr_Cheeks · · Score: 2

      And Connery's going to turn 71 on August 25th (he must have been a very young father in the movie : ) - can you say "Stunt doubles"?

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    2. Re:Hehe... by Pinball+Wizard · · Score: 2
      (chuckle)

      usually someone else comes along and explains things, but no one else did, so here goes...

      Ernesto Miranda was murdered later in life. The only suspect in the case refused to testify, claiming his 'Miranda right' to remain silent. Thus, the irony. Miranda's murder and subsequent investigation have absolutely nothing to do with the case you refer to.

      Additionally, I get some pretty vicious replies to my sig, which make it all the more worthwhile. :)

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  30. related story? by po_boy · · Score: 2

    I read the previous story before this one, and I immediately thought of the Space Shuttle Atlantis as the setting. I know; I know. It's the space station, but still the stream of conciousness deal was a little weird. In fact, now I can hardly picture Indy in near weightlessness.

  31. More great action by L-Train8 · · Score: 5

    I had a chance to see the first one a couple months ago, and I was really surprised. I'd forgotten what a truly great action movie it was. Despite the fact that the action doesn't really let up, it never gets too much, as in a Indy wannabe like The Mummy Returns. The second and third were not as great overall, but both had some fun and exciting parts.

    I remember an interview with George Lucas, when he was making the Young Indian Jones TV series. He said that people were accusing him of milking the franchise for money. He said if he wanted to do that, he'd just make another sequel. Maybe Phantom Menace didn't do so well at the box office?

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  32. Indiana Jones 4 won't happen for a while though... by antdude · · Score: 2

    "Indiana Jones 4: The Calgary Sun talked with Steven Spielberg's producing partner Kathleen Kennedy who had some disheartening news for those eager to see a fourth Indy film: 'The truth is there has been a lot of discussion amongst all of us connected with the film but to be honest there is no script because there isn't even a writer in place. It sounds like a slam dunk to do another Indiana Jones but you have to get everyone available and committed and then you have to get a screenplay that excites everyone. In reality that could probably take years'." --http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/010703.htm (Dark Horizons; 7/3/2001)

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  33. Re:Lets see... by Speare · · Score: 2

    excuse me, but we atlantans don't take kindly to idle talk of being bombed or enslaved...

    Oh, but having commercials with McDonald's drive-through employees "talking" in that sacred tongue doesn't bother your image as an Atlantan, at all.

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  34. Lets see... by SIGFPE · · Score: 2

    He's made you feel guilty if you're German, American, white, human or even just 'orga' (for those who watched AI). What guilt trip could misanthropist Spielberg take you on in this movie? It's not like the Americans bombed the Atlantans, or the Atlantans were made slaves, or the Atlantans oppress teddy bears. My, my. Spielberg has a tough problem to solve here. But with the help of that genius scriptwriter George Lucas I'm sure they'll figure it out.
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    -- SIGFPE
    1. Re:Lets see... by SIGFPE · · Score: 2

      My my. I always though Atlanta was just a myth - but it has its own web site so it must be real. Indiana Jones will have to find another mythical place to visit. Does Kansas really exist?
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      -- SIGFPE
  35. For on Bravo by Crixus · · Score: 2
    I saw Harrison Ford on the Bravo show "Inside The Actors Studio" and he said that such a film would definitely happen.

    He had no time frame.

    Rich...

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  36. I don't know about the music... by zpengo · · Score: 2

    ...but I'm busy trying to figure what anime this was ripped-off from.

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  37. Quick Poll...Post Answers by zpengo · · Score: 2
    Which was the TRUE Indiana Jones movie?
    • Lost Ark
    • Temple of Doom
    • Holy Grail
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  38. Vaporcinema.... by zpengo · · Score: 3

    It's not news until it hits IMDB. Until then, it's just vaporcinema.

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  39. Re:That sounds familiar by Spire · · Score: 2

    That's 320x200. World of a difference (320x240 has a full 20% more pixels than 320x200!).

    Interestingly, the actual game area, if you subtract the area used for the verb-and-inventory UI, was far smaller: 320x143. That works out to a visual aspect ratio of 1.86:1, which is suspiciously close to 1.85:1, a standard aspect ratio used in many movies today. Fate of Atlantis was a bona-fide widescreen game, folks!

    For those keeping score, that's yet another reason to consider the classic pre-dumbed-down SCUMM interface the pinnacle of adventure game UI design.

    BTW, in case anyone was wondering, the Indy movies were all shot using Panavision, an anamorphic process that produces an even wider aspect ratio of 2.35:1.
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  40. Re:The thing I disliked most . . . by Spire · · Score: 2

    You're correct. There were eight Crusades, all in all. The one depicted in the movie would have been the ninth (and thus the last).
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  41. Re:That sounds familiar by Spire · · Score: 2

    Actually, I *loved* the interface.

    As did I! Perhaps you misunderstood my original post. I consider the Fate interface the pinnacle of adventure game UI design. This was before LucasArts decided to dumb things down (Sam and Max Hit the Road, Full Throttle, The Dig, and so on).

    The on-screen non-dismissable interface used in Fate and other classic LucasArts adventures may have taken up a significant amount of screen real estate, but it had the happy advantage of making the play area "widescreen", which made for a more cinematic experience. Clearly, this was intentional, because the aspect ratio was defined in a precise way, by dividing the screen at literally an odd point.
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  42. This is false. by Torke · · Score: 5

    Straight from the horses mouth: http://www.darkhorizons.com/news9/010703.htm

    Indiana Jones 4: The Calgary Sun talked with Steven Spielberg's producing partner Kathleen Kennedy who had some disheartening news for those eager to see a fourth Indy film: "The truth is there has been a lot of discussion amongst all of us connected with the film but to be honest there is no script because there isn't even a writer in place. It sounds like a slam dunk to do another Indiana Jones but you have to get everyone available and committed and then you have to get a screenplay that excites everyone. In reality that could probably take years".

    1. Re:This is false. by JFTaylor · · Score: 2

      It depends on when you ask Spielberg. In the Raiders 20th Anniversary issue of "Star Wars Insider", Spielberg's quoted as saying "I want to make a promise, Indiana Jones is coming back soon." Apparently, Lucas is the holdup (again). The "other movies" have been occupying his time. Ford, Connery, etc. all seem to be waiting for "those other movies" to be done. One of the writers on "The Last Crusade" apparently had a rough draft of the 4th screenplay all set before he passed away.
      So, in a few words: It's not entirely false.

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      ---- James
  43. Re:How is this going to fit in though? by Midnight+Ryder · · Score: 2

    More than that - you have to drink it EVERY DAY according to the novization. The reason why the knight had grown so old was from the times where his faith wavered, and he failed to drink from the Grail, which caused normal aging to resume.

    I don't think that part of the expliation made it into the movie - for some reason, the book adaptation managed to stick in my head better than the movie (which is saying something - I thought the movie was great!)

    As for Henry Jones, Jr (Indy) - if ya ever get the chance, check out the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles. He didn't age well at all, and is one seriously grumpy bastard.

    (Just noticed how bad my spelling sucked - the heck with the spell checker today...)

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  44. Re:Hehe... ya know... by Catbeller · · Score: 2

    Ya know... it is possible to be older than 29, and still walk and run. 'Sides, if you yunguns get too uppity, the oldsters can just shoot ya.

    Seriously, the revulsion (fear?) of the young for the old is getting to me a bit as I get older myself. It is possible to date, use computers, run, and even have an adventure or two after you turn thirty.

  45. Wonderful by maxxon · · Score: 2

    Perhaps Hollywood could concentrate on one or two original movies this decade?

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    max
  46. Atlantis by NatePWIII · · Score: 2

    What is with all the "atlantis" hype lately??

    Its kind of funny how every year there is a big hype in the movies about something or other, one year is was dinosaurs, then tornadoes, then meteors wiping out the earth, and then come the cheaper productions usually a year or so later which are based on one of these particular themes.

    Sometimes it can make you wonder about the creativity in Hollywood, I mean take a look at Tomb Raider, even it had something to do with Atlantis...

    Oh, well. A movie with Sean Connery and Harrison Ford can't be all that bad, their screen presence alone usually makes up for most of the flaws in the the theme or plot.

    Nathaniel P. Wilkerson
    .biz and .info for $13

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  47. Anybody watched Temple of Doom lately? by vex24 · · Score: 2

    I saw the film several months ago and realized how truly awful it is. I think the high point of hilarity is the one 70 mm shot they took of Ford on the rope bridge at the end... it sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the 35 mm scenes that surround it. Not to disparage the other two movies (which were quite good), but Temple of Doom could be repackaged by the MST3K folks for the next box set and some people might actually be able to enjoy it!

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    People shape laws. Not the other way around.

  48. Oh great... by vex24 · · Score: 3

    Oh great, another Indiana Jones movie, that's just terrific. Oh wait, that is good news! I suppose I've been reading too much /. lately. :)

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    People shape laws. Not the other way around.

  49. YES! by antis0c · · Score: 2

    YES!!! All I can say is, YES!!!!!. Now all we need is a 4th Back to the Future, which through rumors I hear may be coming.. unfortunately no M. J. Fox :(, and the rest of the Unbreakable trilogy and I will die a happy man.

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    ..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
  50. Re: Can you HERE the music. by ca1v1n · · Score: 2

    Actually, I was just whistling the theme before I loaded /. I wonder what will happen if I whistle the Titanic theme while visiting /. That would be an interesting sequel...

  51. Re:This is news? by Cryptnotic · · Score: 2
    Even before the LucasArts game "Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine", there was "Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis". FoA was an excellent game with great story on par with the Mokney Island series. FoA came out around 1991, I believe.

    Cryptnotic

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  52. Re:Atlantis?? by shokk · · Score: 2

    Before the video game in 1992, there was Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis in 1991.

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  53. They'll need to use lots of CGI effects... by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 2

    To conceal the age of the actors. Will Indy turn in his whip for a cane? I guess Connery will have to turn in his cane for a walker.

    Maybe the villains in this installment can all be members of the Rolling Stones...

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  54. Re:First 3 **STILL** not on DVD. Oh. Lucas. I Forg by MtViewGuy · · Score: 2

    Now that Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace is coming out on DVD, I think you will see the Indiana Jones movies on DVD within a year or so.

    If I remember correctly, one reason why Spielberg wouldn't release the movies he directed on DVD format for some years was the fact that they lacked DTS surround sound encoding. Now that DTS-encoded DVD discs are commonly available (and most good-quality A/V-receivers have DTS decoding built-in), you're starting to see Spielberg-directed movies on DVD.

  55. Re:The Last Last Crusade... MOO! by Xoro · · Score: 4

    Yep, but this one is worse. At least episode 1 could give us a new cast, but Ford isn't getting any younger. I'm picturing a fat old mess of an Indiana Jones, done up in a tuxedo in some Las Vegas dressing room... Gimme a stage, where this bull can rage...

    I have big fears this will turn out badly.

    Anyway, here are my top 10 picks for the title of the new movie:

    10. Indiana Jones and the Quest for Fiber

    9. Indiana Jones and Siegfried and Roy

    8. Indiana Jones Has Fallen and He Can't Get Up

    7. Indiana Jones and the Planet of the Apes

    6. Indiana Jones and the Tomb of Indiana Jones

    5. Indiana Jones and the Fat Paycheck

    4. Indiana Jones and the Stone of Kidneys

    3. Indiana Jones and the Kids Today, Oy! They Call That Music? What.

    2. Indiana Jones and the Lost Erection

    1. Grumpy Old Indiana Jones

    Good luck pulling this one off.

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    Kill, Tux, kill!
  56. Re:The Last Last Crusade... MOO! by SpryGuy · · Score: 2

    And no jar-jar.

    AND NO KATE CAPSHAW!! God, the Temple of Doom was hard to sit through... Ugh!

    - Spryguy

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    - Spryguy
    There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
  57. Re:Snakes, not rats by tswinzig · · Score: 2

    from the i-hate-rats dept.

    I know it's been 12 years since the last movie, but come on, it's snakes he hates, not rats. His father is the one who hated rats.


    Maybe CmdrTaco hates rats, too?

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    "And like that ... he's gone."
  58. Re:How is this going to fit in though? by DarkEdgeX · · Score: 2

    If you re-watch the flic you'll see that in order for the water to be effective, you have to keep drinking it over time, lest the effects wear off. As it so happens, Indie's dad got to drink it (and have it poured on him) once, and he never actually got to sip it or anything.

    Thus, Indiana Jones is fully mortal, and his dad's small drink probably didn't buy him enough years to even matter or look out of place.

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  59. oh great by unformed · · Score: 3

    Lucas is making it, can't watch it on my DVD player

    oh wait, yes i can, that's what we've got China for

  60. We named the dog Indiana... by spellcheckur · · Score: 2
    This is great! In the first film, Indy went looking for the Ark, fought Nazis and killed a bunch of them.
    In the second film, Indy went looking for a magic potato, fought the Thuggees and killed almost all of them.
    In the third film, Indy went looking for the holy grail and killed Nazis again.

    Now, in the fourth film, Indy can go find a lost underground continent and kill all the... Gungans!

  61. Re:Young Indy by ocbwilg · · Score: 2

    Nah. I'd vote for River Phoenix since he did such a good job at the beginning of "Last Crusade." Oh, wait a minnit...damn.

    Say "NO!" to tax money for religious groups.

  62. A few notes... by dasmegabyte · · Score: 2

    Indy in Atlantis isn't a reaction to recent interest in the subject due to Disney's well crafted (if incredibly stupid) adventure pic. It's been kicked around since Last Crusade...in fact, there was a LucasArts SCUMM(tm) game that stuck Indy in a search for atlantis...it might have been his best. At least the puzzles were intriguing and different, unlike those in the SCUMM Last Crusade. There was also a Fate of Atlantis novelization.

    As for Harrison being too old, it's been my understanding that he's supposed to play an aging IJ in the film, one who's starting to get a bit quirky but still able to throw down with whoever's in his path. I could see it being set easily in the mid 50s or early 60s, maybe with some serious cold war overtones (hell, get Tom Clancy to write it for a real Battle of the Adventure Flick Stars).

    Anyway, as long as he isn't playing young Han Solo in the third Star Wars pic, I think it's great to hear about Ford doing adventure. After all, he was one of the heros of my youth...hell, it's he and Rick Hunter that inspired me to grow this constantly scruffy hairdo.

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  63. On the news by r_j_prahad · · Score: 2
    One of the networks ran this story on the news this morning, along with a few recent clips of Harrison Ford at some unnamed Hollywood function.

    He looked old enough to play Sean Connery's father.

  64. Re:Aging archeologists by tb3 · · Score: 2
    There won't be any nazis. Speilberg has said he couldn't direct 'comic book' nazis after making "Schindler's List". He finally got a clue that these were evil SOBs, not cartoon character bad guys.

    So maybe it could be set post-war, in the late 40's; that would only make in ten years or so after the first three movies.

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  65. This is news? by BIGJIMSLATE · · Score: 4

    This has been kicked around for years.

    We've already heard every rumor under the sun, from M. Night Shyamalan writiting the script, to even Lucas himself directing it (after Episode III of course), and even that it would be released mid-2002 (too late!).

    Then when "Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine" came out, the rumors all focused on the game developers, and how they (falsely) hinted that the next Indy movie went beyond all the Nazi-bashing stuff from the first three (aw...killing Nazis was so much fun though...), and that it might take place in an African/Tropical climate, or even have something to do with the Cold War with Russia.

    But let's look at it this way, Speilberg and Ford are most likely booked for the next few years, and Lucas will almost definately be busy until 2005 or so. Maybe THEN the three of them will have enough time to write a decent script, get old Connery back (assuming he doesn't get arrested for shooting Lorn Michaels before then), and actually make this movie.

    So, I don't believe this is "newsworthy", especially since a PR Rep at Paramount put it so perfectly:

    "These rumours come round every couple of months. It's idle gossip."

  66. Snakes, not rats by bark76 · · Score: 5
    from the i-hate-rats dept.

    I know it's been 12 years since the last movie, but come on, it's snakes he hates, not rats. His father is the one who hated rats.