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RedHat 7.2 Beta: Roswell
LinuxNews.pl writes: "Few days ago RedHat uploaded new Beta release of their distro -
Roswell. If you want to find out more about it just go to the LinuxNews.pl"
And I won't even make a snide comment about how I haven't run Red Hat in 2 years!
If you don't like the compiler, take a look at http://www.bero.org/gcc296.html and then fix your applications.
;) ).
There are 2 reasons why we're still using 2.96 even though 3.0 has been released.
The first is binary compatibility - gcc 3.0 is not binary compatible with anything else, and we don't break binary compatibility between minor releases.
The second is that 2.96 is way more stable than the 3.0 release (though the current 3.0 branch in CVS works somewhat better). If you've ever tried compiling KDE with gcc 3.0, you'll know what I mean.
I don't think you can come up with any program that uses correct code and doesn't work with gcc 2.96 - if you can, report it so we can fix it. If you can't, don't complain.
The final will include KDE 2.2 and a proper compiler (namely 2.96
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I have done a few sudden power-off tests with XFS-SGI/RedHat and Reiser/Mandrake. I had disk corruption with Reiser once, but once is all it takes to ruin your weekend. XFS has been rock solid. My employer has been using XFS on SGI servers for years without problems. The XFS for Linux site is here: http://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/ I have only done one power-off test with ext3 and it performed as it should. I have not done any speed benchmarking between the different types yet.
Yeah apart from on the Slashdot SQL server...
Why ext3? I thought the only advantage of ext3 over other JFSs available for Linux was that it was easy to convert an ext2 partition to it. Does it provide an option to use ReiserFS, JFS, or XFS? I thought that all three of these offered better performance and more features than ext3.
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
Those of us who are "more experienced in Linux" know that you can get apt for rpm and use it to maintain a Red Hat system.
Please RedHat, if you're reading, please make your distributions from the very latest alpha and beta versions, preferrably from developer snapshots done the day of the release. In the past your releases based on beta-quality code were wonderful and I'd hate to see you become another SuSE or Mandrake.
-Kevin
Personally, I congratulate Rob for having the balls to at least be blunt about it instead of the thinly veiled digs routinely employed by the vast majority of you.
Now, whip out the -1, Troll or Offtopic marking for this as fast as possible and sit back satisfied that another dissenting opinion has been eliminated. It's your duty, isn't it?
---
Slashdot: News For Zealots. Stuff That's Hypocritical.
I seem to recall that Mandrake 7.0 or 7.1 would do that with postfix straight out of the box as well. You would have to manually go in and set it up if you wanted anything other than a workstation-only setup. I can't recall off-hand whether it would not listen to the network at all, but I know that it would set itself up as a pretty secure (from spam and other mail issues, including crackers) environment right out of the box. I always liked that a lot about Mandrake back in those days.
If you think Taco's an asshole, try being on the receiving end of the amount of crap email he has to reply to every day.
"Like a madman shooting firebrands or deadly arrows is a man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I was only joking!'" -- Proverbs 26:18-19
Sometimes the Bible is surprisingly relevant.
(BTW, this comment is not intended as a troll; it's just that few people know the Bible has anything to say about the whole "just kidding" thing. Though I fear I may spark a long offtopic thread anyway. Apologies in advance if such a thread ensues.)
Graham "Teach" Mitchell, computer science teacher, Leander HS
I installed it on a spare box a few days ago. The default filesystem is ext3. It also has migrations tools to convert existing ext2 partitions.
Sound card not detected at install, 'oh, that's easy to fix, run sndconfig at the shell' (what's a shell?), sound card gets detected and finally works (if it can detect it, why didn't it do it when I installed?)
We do autodetect PCI soundcards these days - ISA probing is always dangerous (can crash the machine), that's why we aren't doing that at installation time.
If you're using RHL >= 7.1 with KDE, you have the "kontrol-panel" link on the desktop (if you're not using KDE, install the kdeadmin package and run kontrol-panel manually) - it provides a link to all system configuration tools (including sndconfig).
Or bad x configuration (user error, whatever) that results in the GUI not working.
This is true - but it's all but easy to fix.
The fix that immediately comes to mind is using a framebuffer kernel and running X with the framebuffer driver only - that would get rid of this issue, but it would also get rid of nice features like XAA or DRI - so it's definitely not the right thing to do.
If you have a better suggestion to fix this, please let me know.
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KDE only releases source packages. Check the KDE Package Policy for more info. So bitch to whoever is doing the RedHat packages, or to RedHat itself to start doing packages. It's not KDE's problem.
.technomancer
7.1 was just released last month and runs quite well, 7.2 will probably also lag behind the x86 release. I seem to remember someone from RedHat stating that they wouldnt be officially supporting SPARC any more, but would continue to make RedHat available in some for the SPARC.
I guess I won't even make a snide comment about whan an asshole Rob is, then.
Actually, any news about a new Redhat for Alpha?
;)
7.1 was released, 7.2 will be. I could tell you the release date, but I'd have to kill you afterwards.
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In KDE, it's Konqueror - it's installed by default. (It's the file manager - simply right-click on a file)
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GNOME 1.4.x.. ... XFree 4.1.x.. nautulus(sp).. mozilla.. new config tools eventually phazing out linuxconf... easy GUI ISP dial tool..
I am running 7.1 right now and except for a few setup issues it is actually pretty good.
Hopefully they'll put mozill 9.3 in or the latest version of mozilla at the time of release...
Only 'flamers' flame!
Argh, you caught us! Of course, 7.2 is actually still 1.0, just with a higher version number so people with fat net connections can brag about having more current stuff.
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RedHat now denies that they have released another beta of their distro - Roswell. They say: "In reality it was just another one of our disaster recovery backups that we place offsite every month. There is no evidence that points to that this should have been a distro".
Meanwhile RedHat believers rush to FTP sites, trying to gather evidence that it indeed was a real distro that had entered these servers.
Another coverup? Only time will tell.
Frankly, ext3 is the better thought out of the journalling filesystems for Linux, simply because you can turn it on or off, just like logging on Solaris.
* As is generally the case, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
Why RedHat continues to support "gcc-2.96x" is beyond me
We don't want to break binary compatibility between to minor releases, and we need a stable compiler. 3.0 isn't one yet. Try compiling KDE (from CVS) with it, and you'll see.
Almost all of the improvements you listed are already in 2.96, by the way - in fact, they're the reasons we've decided to go with 2.96 rather than 2.95.x in 7.0.
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Jeez... I can't believe how many people fell for this. It was obviously a deliberately snide comment intended to produce posts exactly like yours. I've never seen a more obvious attempt to "rattle some cages" than this and /. editors routinely post flamebait on purpose!! You and 50,000 other /.ers seem to have fallen for it yet again.
Next time you see some ridiculously inflammatory comment by an editor (Apple and one button mice anyone?)... stop before you flame back and wonder if they aren't all laughing their asses off at the lot of you. I know I am. :)
This is really cool, I love open betas! Great way to try some newer versions of kde and gnome!
Most of my machines are running (patched) 7.1, but I do have a few still on 7.0. I'm really looking forward to 7.2 final, but I'll sure use the beta right away. One of my friends is still using 6.2, heh.
But I thought Linux was produced by persons doing it for the good of the computer community? Isn't that what Linux/GPL is all about? Do they really just want money?
Don't you mean Mandrake 9?
They always bump up their release numbers for no apparent reason, other than having the highest number ;-)
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
Funny, I submitted a story on PCI 3.0 (Intel's Arapahoe interface) to replace the existing PCI bus. His reason for rejecting it was "he had others who already submitted it, and was sitting on those waiting to post it." This was on Thursday of last week... I would have thought people would like to know what's going on for the future of computers, not just when Taco feels he needs to bash RedHat (even though Slackware is superior :-) ).
gcc 3.0 has been out for a long time already and there's no reason not to use it. 2.95 and the unoffical 2.96x are ancient by today's standards. 3.0 is the latest version and it works quite well. A bit faster, too.
Yeah yeah, I bought a few at today's low-low prices because I'm not out a whole lot if they go under and I think that of the Linux companies, they have a pretty good chance of success. I pity the people who got in at the IPO price and didn't sell when they went over $100, though...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Here is a list of gcc-3.0 improvements over gcc-2.95.3. As for myself, I really appreciate the libstdc++-3.0 support.
I am less than enthusiatic about the
New warnings for C code that may have undefined semantics because of violations of sequence point rules in the C standard (such as a = a++;, a[n] = b[n++]; and a[i++] = i;), included in -Wall.
OMS/LiVid code, in particular, trips this up.
Normally I try to ignore the biased comments that creep up in the stories here, but the snippy little comments, regardless of the topic, have become a bit much lately.
Why on Earth would you want to download an ISO over a dial-up connection? Just update the packages that have changed and you'll end up with the essentially the same thing as the new version. Or you could pay for it. $50 is a lot less than the cost in pain involved in downloading 650MB over a dial-up connection.
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
... is that X+1.0 will be around the corner! RedHat 8.0 probably won't be 100% stable, but it should be a cool new bit of software! I'll be installing 7.2 beta tonight, but what I'm really looking forward to will be the schweeet Red Hat 8.0 later this year!
He's a decent guy in person. I spent a couple of days around him, Chris Dibona, Krow, Pudge, and Patrick G. as well. They're all decent guys, and at least half of them are brilliant.
Maybe it's different 'cuz of my business dealings, but Malda sure wasn't a whiny prima-donna. He's got his opinions and all, but doesn't take himself too seriously (really!). I now have the impression half the stupid article comments are meant to poke fun at himself.
Besides that, he bought a round of drinks one night and supper another. (Of course, he probably did it to pay back Jim Gettys for the years of work on X11.)
I still wouldn't hire him to write software that anyone else would ever maintain, though.
how to invest, a novice's guide
After all, being a beta, if there are major bugs found, they may have to make enough significant changes that Ximian would spend too much time catching up. Better to wait until the release.
According to RedHat, ReiserFS still has one or two known data corruption problems, so they won't put it in the installer.
.technomancer
"And I won't even make a snide comment about how I haven't run Red Hat in 2 years! "
Snide: Expressive of contempt
You almost did. And besides, we don't give a flying fuck what you do, and do not use. Get over it.
-Shaunak.
;-)
I love the style of the writing of the press release:
Etc.Too bad we can't say the same about XP
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Its comments like that that hinder the growth of the linux community. Joe newbie finally gets on to an IRC linux help channel, asks about something he thinks is redhat related. He gets replies of "lamer, rtfm, redhat is gay." or, more in line with Taco's "Redhat, um, no comment, Redhat *snicker*"
/. post something so utterly condescending on what is probably the most popular linux distro for newbies, and The Best Known linux outside of the linux community.
The newbie feels dejected, sees the community as a bunch of arrogant geeks (i guess we mainly are?) and goes back to windows where Everyone is willing to help him.
While it seems most of the linux community is realizing this, and is starting to work together to make linux a more newbie friendly place, less distro fanaticism and more helping hands, its quite suprising to see
The X.2 releases of Redhat are usually pretty refined. There is not much ground breaking stuff in here, just evolution of the existing packages (gcc 3.0 is not used by default, just included in addition to 2.96).
2.4.6 is now included, as is Xfree 4.1.0 and Gnome 1.4
RH 7.1 is already a pretty nice distribution. It will be interesting to see what the installer changes look like.
Ahem... Responding to trolls is usually something I don't fall for, but:
GCC 2.96 is an unofficial version of the gcc 3.0 development code that Red Hat released because of their substantial ability to support the code (being as they employ a significant number of the world's gcc hackers) and their customers' demands for better standards support in C++. GCC 2.96 was unstable initially only in a few small areas, and they were fixed way back in 7.0 updates. I've never ever had a problem with 7.1.
If you want to hate Red Hat, I suppose its compiler is as good a place as any to start a rant, but it's not a broken or unstable compiler. In fact, it's a much better compiler than gcc 2.95 in some pretty dramatic areas (standards compliance, non-x86 support, etc).
I think you need to re-evaluate what you mean by "unstable" and "gcc", since gcc 2.96 did start life as an honest-to-goodness development snapshot of gcc, and was brought to you by the very same folks that gave you egcs.
LinuxNews.pl was the user who submitted it, CT was the one who posted it. What probably happened is that one of other the editors saw the artical dropped it, where as CT saw this one and posted it.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Exactly - KDE has set up usability.kde.org and the kde-usability@kde.org mailing list (subscribe by sending a message to kde-usability-request@kde.org with "subscribe" in the subject) just for that purpose.
You're all very welcome to join.
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Where, O where, is the source to kontrol-panel? I was building my own KDE from source the other day (yeah, before rawhide updated to 2.2-cvs) and I couldn't find the kontrol-panel source code anywhere for the life of me!
I know that SUSE is using the new LVM subsystem. It's amazing in that it's just like HP-UX - I just keep wondering where VxFS is.
Really, Red Hat's insistance upon ext3 has cost them dearly - Oracle going exclusively with SUSE, and SUSE using Reiser, really puts Red Hat's Reiser instability claims to the fire. I've used the XFS version from SGI, and the file system is just great. Why Red Hat didn't go with this, I will never be able to understand.
Because of the Oracle issue, I'm probably heading towards SUSE - just haven't had the time to research it and start the migrations. Red Hat has drug their feet on WAY too many issues for FAR too long.
You should usually not run a "normal" X server on top of a framebuffer-enabled kernel (check the READMEs in the kernel source).
If you do, a lot of odd things can happen, especially when switching back and forth between X and text mode.
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Roswell doesn't exist either...
l
;)
It's ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/beta/roswel
See? It's roswell!
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If you're using KDE or GNOME, simply click on the floppy icon.
/mnt/floppy
If you're in text mode,
mount
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This happens to be my fault.
;) We haven't come up with a way to work more than 24 hours a day, but I'll keep trying. ;)
Or rather, it's because I didn't have the time to build the packages when the beta was current (if you've ever worked for a linux distributor, you know there are more important things to do a couple of days before a feature freeze...), and I don't think it makes much sense to build them now (now that the beta is pretty much obsolete).
That's precisely why I chose to put a recent CVS snapshot that should be pretty close to the 2.2 release in Roswell.
If you don't like it, send some of your spare time to bero@redhat.com.
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OK - I'll bite... I've met Rob a couple of times over the last few years (most recently at last years' Geek Pride day in Boston), and I've generally found him pleasant and interesting to talk to. We chatted for around a half hour or so in Boston (mainly on mobile technology), and I didn't find him to be objectionable or arrogant at all. He can be a little prickly over /. (he wasn't that way to me, but I've seen evidence of that), but then again, that's "his baby" and it's not unreasonable for him to look at it a little stronger.
That said, I expect he has no recollection of me whatsoever, as I'm merely YATBG (Yet Another Tall Bearded Guy) to most.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Obviously, there are some new things, like filesystems, that frankly, won't affect me in the least.
My concerns lie more with some interface things that are holding me back from using Linux. Not having come from a Unix background, I have no experience compiling software, understanding file permissions, etc. Does 7.2 do anything to address the needs of newer users?
I have been running Linux since November or December of 1991. I've seen just about every distro that's ever been out starting with HJ Lu's boot/root floppies. Why myst people waste so much time an effors on distro bashing? It's Linux! That's all that matters. I have tried all of the "big 7" (see LWN's Distro page) from their early releases to date. When it comes down to what counts there is no significent difference between them! They all work and work well. They will do the job that needs to be done if you have a resonably compitent SysAdmin to run them. Just like any other *NIX. I've also used Free/Net/OpenBSD and Solaris any they also work. If all the energy that is currentlly used to rant about Distros/OS/Licenses was put towards constructive things the world would be saying "Micro-WHO?" right now.
I know no one is going to actually listen to me. But I'll keep tilting at windmills till I can't ride any more.
--
If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
Journaling filesystems are sort of the elite in the business. They're what filesystems like FAT and ext2 want to grow up into. They're also essential for big enterprise server where data integrity is a priority.
The idea behind journal filesystems comes from big databases like Oracle. Database operations quite often include several related and dependent sub-operations. The failure of any one operation means that the entire operation is invalid and any changes made to the database are rolled back. Journal filesystems use a similar system.
A journal log file is maintained on the partition. Filesystem writes are first written to the log file. If a write operation is interrupted due to the machine unexpectedly going down -- power failure, crash -- then at the next boot, the journal log file is read and operations are rolled back. This process takes only a few seconds to few minutes rather than the hours that a `fsck' can possibly take, on larger servers.
For more info on journaling read here -> http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue55/florido.html
Only 'flamers' flame!
Much like the Slack people releasing 'Version 8.0'. I think it is very funny, id love to see the slack guys make 'Version 42' or some-such for the next release... :)
May I assume that many of you are talking about running a journaling filesystem on your workstation? If so, why? It only slows you down. Unless you're talking about a server with 100G+ of disk space you're not going to speed up the boot process that much and I have been running without one for years without loosing any data (actually I do recall loosing files with 2.0 ext2 but I never have lost data with 2.2 ext2 and power has kicked off a few times).
From time to time Redhat adds people to their Beta testing cycle (and you get all the extra's - you get the CD's shipped internationally over express Air-Mail, you get the final version in a box set, etc) - specially if you are a hardware software vendor, or if you register while the beta period is open...
Check it out sometimes: www.beta.redhat.com
Hetz (Heunique)
I believe I read on dot.kde.org that gcc 3.1 will again break compatibility. Anyone know if this is true? I thought one of the main points of gcc 3 was a (finally) stable C++ ABI.
If so hopefully it will be out in time for Red Hat 8.0, so we won't have to go through another 3 releases with a compiler that is well behind the current. If they ship 8.0 with gcc3 and gcc3.1 ships in the middle of the year, they'll probably ship 8.1 and 8.2 with gcc3.0. That probably puts us into 2003. Ouch.
When I want to download a linux distro, I just use a download manager and content myself with downloading about fifty megs a night over my dial-up connection. It takes a couple weeks, but as long as I remember to start the download, it's fairly hassle-free, and far cheaper than buying the CDs.
I'm the stranger...posting to
"RedHat 8.0 probably won't be 100% stable, but it should be a cool new bit of software! "
How is that cool? Most linux users use it as a server OS, where stability is everything and coolness matters not a whit. Myself, I use Red Hat in "embedded-type" applications such as MP3 jukeboxes, really cheap pc-based DVD players, etc. And the big advantage Linux has over windows on the desktop is its improved stability. What is the point of unstable linux in the name of coolness?
I'm the stranger...posting to
Ladies and Gentlemen, I have said it before and I will say it again. Free discussion is what Slashdot is all about, but if you think this site is so terrible or that Taco and the other editors are such idiots/snobs/nazis/whatever, either keep it to yourself or just leave. Questioning their opinions is fine, and to be encourage, but personal comments are not. It's unprofessional, it takes away from the main topic of the discussion, and it's irritating. If Malda is being arrogant, there's no need to post that fact - we see it, and calling him an "asshole" is just childish.
Many of us are respected IT professionals, and many others like to think of ourselves as being intelligent, mature people. Let's try to act like it, eh?
I'm the stranger...posting to
Why does Red Hat hate us? Is it that not enough people are buying boxed distros? Hell, I'll buy one! I'll buy three! Whatever you want, guys, I'll buy it, just make the whining, screeching music not be shipped with Red Hat! For the love of decency, stop! (Collapses into pathetic crying fetal position)
I'm the stranger...posting to
I have to disagree with redhat...
/usr/local, and I use it with great frequency. I have had no problems with its binaries. I dont pass binaries from system to system so unless you make RPMS i dont think anyone really cares, particularly when it comes to workstation machines, we all hack our own the way we like, and no one hacks up stuff around 2.96 - at least i wouldnt.
:0)
:0)
I link to kgcc on all redhats I use. Yes, egcs/gcc 2.9.1/112. or whatever kgcc is.
The first reason is the linux kernel is recommended to be compiled with that release and the second is that 2.96 was an experimental 3.0alpha fork. It is broken, deprecated and gcc and stallman were so pissed redhat had used it in a wide release product.
I have redhat 7.1 with gcc 3.0 in
I like Slackware 8.0 for workstation use, at work we stuck with redhat 7.0 (with all the updates of course). I recommend that for server use (7.1 did some weird stuff around java). I also use kgcc -> gcc/cc sym links as the binaries produced by that compiler are "real," that 2.96 is a horror show.
The 3.0 gcc is also better at ansi/posix/whatever else, i currently have 2.4.7 running perfectly compiled from that, as well as xfree 4.1.0. I think KDE is a nice UI, but it has "dirty closed roots" and do not consider it a valid project (YET
CHeers to redhat for trying, but i vote NO one the lame 2.96 fork
-Z
Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.