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Finally, A Solution To The DMCA

morcego writes: "Well, finally someone came up with a solution to the DMCA problem. You can read it on the archive of the Humorix list." Well, combine this with my ULC Reverendship, and we're well underway *grin*.

122 of 465 comments (clear)

  1. Freedom of Religion? by Kenyaman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Freedom of Religion? How 'bout Freedom of Speech? We've already eroded freedom of religion to the point that kids have to fight hard to convince their school administrations to allow Bible clubs, even though such groups are explicitly legal. Oh well. :)

    1. Re:Freedom of Religion? by hey! · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The arguments aren't whether kids are allowed to form Bible clubs, but whether allowing the clubs to use school property constitutes state support of religion. My own view is that it does not, but reasonable people may differ on this point.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re:Freedom of Religion? by VivianC · · Score: 3, Offtopic

      Ah, but you see, the bible club parents pay the same school taxes that you do. You can't discriminate against clubs with a religous message solely on that ground. That would be the state forbidding the practice of religon and that is unconstitutional.

      I still want someone to show me where the constitution says there should be a separation between the church and state. Try and find it. I see where it says that the government can't establish an official religon or require yor membership for citizenship.

      Keep in mind that the constitution was written to be understood by common people in the 1700's. If it doesn't come right out and say something, it isn't in there.

      --
      Viv

      Gmail invites for ip
    3. Re:Freedom of Religion? by jmauro · · Score: 2

      Are you interested in privacy as well? Because according to your interpretation there is no guarentee that you'll have any privacy what so ever. It isn't in the constitution, so why would you expect it? The government can track your movement, everything you do and it will all be cool. No protections what so ever! Yea!

      There are a good deal of rights, not in the Constitution. It was never intended to be static, and they we're interpreting it from the begining. Things like overturning a law on Constitutional grounds was just completely made up. Don't be so strict, you'll really lose a lot of your freedoms.

    4. Re:Freedom of Religion? by flatrock · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The second ammendmnet to the US consittution:
      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

      If the school allows other clubs, then they should allow bible clubs equal access. Otherwise they are prohibiting the free exercise of religion, abridging those student's right to free speech, and preventing them from peaceably assembling on property that is available to others.

    5. Re:Freedom of Religion? by CrackElf · · Score: 2

      "the same school taxes that you do"

      And I feel that the use of any communal money should be agreed upon by all involved. Those that want to create special groups outside of the goverment (such as churches) are welcome to do so. Is it not enough that churches get a tax free status? Do you really think that everyone 'wants' to be involved in your religion? Do you feel that your religion is so special that others must be subjected to it and pay for it? I am sorry, but that is just on fair.

      The fact is that there are many different religions and, in fact, some of us are pretty a-religious, non-religious, or even anti-religious. Thus putting one ahead of the others is discrimination and favoritism. That is why there is such a back lash against it. I am suprised that you can actually claim that there is a valid reason for it to be otherwise.
      -CrackElf

      --
      "Blake is an idealist, Jenna. He cannot afford to think." - Kerr Avon, Star One, Blakes 7
    6. Re:Freedom of Religion? by digitalboi · · Score: 2, Informative

      Foolish me, but i thought the Second Amendment of the US Constitution pertained to the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

    7. Re:Freedom of Religion? by bnenning · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Because according to your interpretation there is no guarentee that you'll have any privacy what so ever. It isn't in the constitution, so why would you expect it?


      Because the Constitution does not grant rights. Instead, it enumerates the specific powers of the government. In theory, the government can exercise only those powers specifically named in the Constitution; all others are delegated to the states or the people. Of course this has not been the case for some time now.


      Don't be so strict, you'll really lose a lot of your freedoms.


      I'd argue that the "living document" view of the Constitution is responsible for far more damage to our freedoms. Look at how many laws and regulations have been passed using a bogus interpretation of the interstate commerce clause. Or consider the war on drugs; alcohol Prohibition correctly required a Constitutional amendment, yet somehow the federal government just asserted that it can throw people in prison for smoking pot.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    8. Re:Freedom of Religion? by cyberdonny · · Score: 2
      > Do you really think that everyone 'wants' to be involved in your religion? Do you feel that your religion is so special that others must be subjected to it and pay for it? I am sorry, but that is just on fair.

      The same thing could be said about just any (school sponsored) club. Do you really think that everyone enjoys playing chess? Using linux? Playing football? But we wouldn't use that fact for banning chess clubs, linux clubs or football clubs. Why should religion be considered any different?

      > The fact is that there are many different religions and, in fact, some of us are pretty a-religious, non-religious, or even anti-religious.

      Hey, many geeks are anti-jock, but most high-schools still have sports club. And on top of that, there is a significant peer pressure to join one of the sports clubs. If you apply your reasoning equally to all clubs, sports clubs would have to go before any religious clubs!

      > Thus putting one ahead of the others is discrimination and favoritism.

      No, it is not. Geeks may not be interested by sports clubs, but they have their chess or computer clubs. Non-discrimation does not mean that no special-interest groups should exist, it only means that each reasonably common interest should have the right to form a club. Forbidding only religious clubs, while allowing clubs for all other kinds of concerns would be anti-religious discrimation. And banning all clubs would be plain stoopid: why not put the classrooms to good use after school hours?

    9. Re:Freedom of Religion? by Fishstick · · Score: 2

      >That would be the state forbidding the practice of religon

      No, that would be the state refusing to _pay_ for the practice of religon with my tax money. (I don't personally have a problem with a group of kids reading the bible in a school after hours, but others might.)

      Prohibiting would be more like throwing you in jail if you are caught.

      The intent of the ammendment is probably more to keep the church from gaining control of the government or vice versa, but separating the two means separating any and all overlap, whether it really threatens freedom of religon or not.

      Or maybe not.

      --

      There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
      Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.

    10. Re:Freedom of Religion? by isomeme · · Score: 2

      The second ammendmnet to the US consittution:
      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion[...]


      Actually, that's the first amendment. The second amendment is the one that discourages Congress or the states from messing with the first one .

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a skull.
    11. Re:Freedom of Religion? by Oztun · · Score: 2

      Kids are in school to learn. Chess is an exercise of the brain. Religion is a brainwashing of the mind. Physically active sports exercise the body.

    12. Re:Freedom of Religion? by CrackElf · · Score: 2

      Religious organizations differ from your standard club in a few ways:

      Significant amounts of people are not opposed to the chess club, and the sports clubs. Whereas religion is a hotbed of debate. I support the other clubs. I do not support using the school as a place for any political or religious group to preach, indoctrinate, or recruit.

      Religious organizations have their own agenda's. While there have been few serious bids for world domination by the football club or the chess club, religions have tried (and at times succeeded) at controlling large amounts of power. And it has not always been used for good. I am not trying to cast judgment here, just trying to put forth a little perspective.

      Also, many religious organizations (especially the Christian religions) put forth their morality and attempt to enforce their 'code' on others. I do not believe that this is something that I want my tax dollars going to, just as I am fairly certain that most Christian parents would not want their money going towards the Hare Krishna or the Scientologists(sp?) (or any other cults for that matter). I am fairly certain that most proponents are not talking about the Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Native American, Satanist, African (multiple), Wiccan, Chineese, Japaneese, Celtic, or any of the plethora of other religions beliefs that exist.

      Why can religious groups not meet at their churches where they use (tax free) money that comes from within the religious communities that want the meeting? Seriously. Unless the idea is to recruit, or use the school as a place to indoctrinate, what reason is there to use the school?

      --
      "Blake is an idealist, Jenna. He cannot afford to think." - Kerr Avon, Star One, Blakes 7
    13. Re:Freedom of Religion? by Oztun · · Score: 2

      The same thing could be said about just any (school sponsored) club. Do you really think that everyone enjoys playing chess? Using linux? Playing football? But we wouldn't use that fact for banning chess clubs, linux clubs or football clubs. Why should religion be considered any different?

      Because religion is not an exercise of the body or mind I don't care how enlightened you may think christians are.

    14. Re:Freedom of Religion? by Sir+Tristam · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The Constitution itself promotes a strict interpretation. Congress in prohibited in Acticle I from making any ex post facto law; that is, a law that makes something illegal after the fact. Why? Simple; so that people would know the rules ahead of time, and only be punished if they break the rules that were in effect at the time that they committed a crime.

      If you look at the Declaration of Independence, making past actions illegal and then punishing the colonists for them was one of the tyranies that the colonists railed against when it was done by King George. That is why they made sure to include this restriction on the laws passed by Congress.

      However, if we then say that the Constitution itself is not to be interpreted strictly, but has a meaning that can change over time, then we are saying that people do not know the rules in advance; they find out that what they did was illegal when the courts "interpret" the Constitution. This smacks of the same tyranny that our founders were trying to escape.

      So, if we wish to summarize, interpreting the Constitution according to its "spirit" is against the spirit of the Constitution.

      Chris Beckenbach

    15. Re:Freedom of Religion? by Oztun · · Score: 2

      The problem lies in where you draw the line. If you want to use the room for something exercising the mind (chess, computers, etc.) thats fine. If you want to use it for something to exercise the body (sports) thats fine.

      Once you start using it to brainwash others with your beliefs then at what point do you stop? How far should they go to "spread" their beliefs to others. If all religions preached everyone should be accepted I wouldn't have a problem with it. When your meeting singles out everyone else as going to hell then I say your just a contributor to the worlds problems.

      Look at the muslim/jewish conflict, the christian crusades, or any other major (non-accepting) religions that cause people to die on a daily basis. Then tell me my kid should be subjected to that bullshit.

    16. Re:Freedom of Religion? by Mercuria · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In theory, the government can exercise only those powers specifically named in the Constitution; all others are delegated to the states or the people. Of course this has not been the case for some time now.

      Would you like to know exactly how long that's been? Since the end of the Civil War. As soon as the North won, suddenly "The United States of America" went from being a plural to a singular. Today we just think of it as the name of the country we live in, but once upon a time, people actually meant every individual word of that -- they spoke of a collection of almost independant entities, but Lincoln, by uniting a country divided on that very issue of state's rights (and don't let them tell you it was about slavery, that was a side effect) and winning it for Federalism, redefined the nation. Now it has a single currency, and more uniform laws. Yes, the federal government has done some pretty bogus things, like the war on drugs, but don't blame that on a loss of state's rights.

      As for the interpretation of the right to privacy, a supreme court decision discovered that nugget was in there, after the government had tried to push that particular envelope. Yes, the constitution states that it grants specific rights to the federal government and all others belong to the people. If that's true, why bother having the first amendment at all? or the forteenth? Heck, most of the bill of rights isn't granting the government powers the way the 18th did, it's limiting the extent of it. Those are the parts of the constitution that the Supreme Court found a right to privacy in the "penumbra" of.

    17. Re:Freedom of Religion? by volpe · · Score: 2
      There's also no reason that you couldn't have a Jewish club, and a Muslim club, etc.

      ... and a Satanic club, and a wiccan club, and an atheist club too, right? You weren't going to exclude any of them, were you?

    18. Re:Freedom of Religion? by MadAhab · · Score: 2
      Um, wrong amendment, but never mind.

      I actually agre with you... although Gay and Lesbian clubs, Satan Rules clubs, and the rest should be permitted as well.

      Frankly, the reason that such clubs are not permitted is that so many so-called conservatives tried for so long to pass laws that enforce the legitimacy of school prayer, which was a huge ethical, moral, and constitutional quagmire. These laws would have done nothing but make it legal for schools to provide a forum for one religion (Christianity) at the expense of others (and atheism IS a religion). Had said conservatives really wanted nothing more than to encourage prayer among the faithful and defend freedom of religion, they would have pushed the kind of "let's you and me pray and stick up for ourselves if anyone tries to stop us" prayer that's come into vogue in the last year or so. And they would have spared us 20 years of assaults on the Constitution.

      But they didn't do that. They spend 20 years trying to sneak in de facto state endorsement of religion; their aims were not honest, and their methods (stealth candidates) and agendas (school-led prayer; an answer to a problem that no one had) gave the lie to their alleged goals. Now they are paying the price in a backlash against anything that resembles their tactics, even when, as in the case of student bible clubs, there is no good reason to forbid them.

      So you should really be complaining to Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, et al..

      --
      Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
    19. Re:Freedom of Religion? by VivianC · · Score: 2
      You might not want to mention the Declaration of Independence. Under current theory of the wall between Church and State, it is unconstitutional:

      the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them

      We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

      appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions

      with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence


      People can make whatever ignorant claims they want. These are not the words of people who would ban bibles from public places. Let's do something novel and look at the First Amendment and how CrackElf would have you read it.

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

      So now, the (off)topic here is after school use of public property by a religious group. Mr. Elf feels that this is not allowed under the First Amendment. Let's assume he is correct (he isn't) and you will see what else isn't allowed under this interpretation:
      • Free Speech is not allowed on public property. It is listed second to religion so it can't be more important or deserving of more rights. Anyone practicing any Free Speech must do so on Private property at their own expense.
      • There is no Freedom of the Press allowed on public property. In fact, please keep the media investigators 100 yards from any public areas. The Press is only allowed to collect information on private land owned by the media or private people who have granted permission to the press.
      • You are not allowed to assemble on Public property. All protests, including strikes and marches must be conducted on private property after gaining permission from the owners.
      • Feel free to petition the Government at any time from the confines of your own property on your own dime. Do not come to Congress or any public property to ask us for something unless we invite you.


      I'll do the next nine amendments if you would like or someone else can do the Separation Bill of Rights. You'll find that some things don't change much. Maybe Mr. Elf would like to take a Crack at it?
      --
      Viv

      Gmail invites for ip
    20. Re:Freedom of Religion? by bnenning · · Score: 2
      Heck, most of the bill of rights isn't granting the government powers the way the 18th did, it's limiting the extent of it.


      An excellent point, and that's why many of the framers of the Constitution didn't want a Bill of Rights. Their reasoning was that if the Bill of Rights said that the government could not infringe certain rights, then it could be argued that any rights not listed didn't exist. The 9th and 10th amendments were intended to prevent this from happening, but they too have been ignored.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    21. Re:Freedom of Religion? by mpe · · Score: 2

      I think the second admendment says something about being able to bear large hand cannons or something like that...

      Actually as worded it covers everything from a rock to a 25MT bomb.

    22. Re:Freedom of Religion? by mpe · · Score: 2

      I'd argue that the "living document" view of the Constitution is responsible for far more damage to our freedoms. Look at how many laws and regulations have been passed using a bogus interpretation of the interstate commerce clause.

      Which effectivly neuters the 10th ammendment.
      Going back to the DMCA the same thing has been happening with the IP clause. With "limited time" being interpreted as "any finite length of time" and issues of furthering "science and useful arts" being downplayed.

    23. Re:Freedom of Religion? by mpe · · Score: 2

      Also, many religious organizations (especially the Christian religions) put forth their morality and attempt to enforce their 'code' on others.

      You then have to address the question of what is a "religion". Just as there are religious groups with political aspirations there are ostensivly political groups which rely on faith even more than religious...

    24. Re:Freedom of Religion? by Tetsujin28 · · Score: 2
      Significant amounts of people are not opposed to the chess club, and the sports clubs. Whereas religion is a hotbed of debate. ...

      I think that if the First Amendment stands for anything, it stands for the idea that no one's opposition to an idea should have any bearing on how the law treats the expression of that idea.

      --
      - - - -
      The real Tetsujin 28 is a giant robot.
    25. Re:Freedom of Religion? by jafac · · Score: 2

      I think that there are significant numbers of people who are opposed to sports, the obscene amount of money that is spent on sports in the public education system, the way atheletic students are given preferential treatment in matters of discipline as well as academic measurement, and financial aid.

      Sports has a number of very negative impacts on our society;
      Programs our children for agression and destructive or counterproductive competition. Costs BILLIONS a year in lost productivity due to "old sports injuries" or worker absenteeism to watch sporting events, or dissolved marriages due to spousal obsession with watching sporting events or spending money on sports paraphenalia, or purchasing inferior or defective products endorsed by sports personalities.
      Takes HUGE amounts of funding and manpower away from legitimate academic pursuits.
      Riots by fans at British soccer games.

      Why do Sports teams have to meet and practice on school property? Why can't sports enthusiasts spend their own money to secure funding for a separate stadium, locker room and showers? Why are students pulled away from their studies in their regular classes to attend brainwashing and propaganda ceremonies ("pep rallies")?

      We all know that football is a neo-facsist crypto-symbol for nuclear war.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    26. Re:Freedom of Religion? by volpe · · Score: 2

      That's a strawman. Find me one public school that teaches students that God doesn't exist. And don't try to claim that keeping religion out of the classroom is the same as teaching that God doesn't exist, because it isn't the same thing.

    27. Re:Freedom of Religion? by Vermifax · · Score: 2
      Nope....supreme court ruled that it would be prohibiting religion.

      "[I]f a State refused to let religious groups use facilities open to others, then it would demonstrate not neutrality but hostility toward religion." Justice O'connor Westside Community Schools v. Mergens, 496 U.S. 248 (1990).

      --

      Vermifax

      Logout
    28. Re:Freedom of Religion? by CrackElf · · Score: 2

      Just how many crusades and jihads were waged in the name of football (except perhaps during the super bowl). And how many in the name of religion.

      Now, do not get me wrong, I believe very firmly that most sports are a throwback to the days of the caveman, and are used by the elite in much the same way as in the great roman empire ... namely to distract the population from the problems of the day and from thinking for themselves. And sports may be a significant factor in aggression and the 'group' mentality that is a more socially acceptable form of the 'mob' or 'gang' mentality. On the other hand, it cordons them off bullies and thugs, and keeps them busy beating each others heads in. And the participants get colorful jackets that warn the rest of society that these people are closer to the missing link than they.

      Seriously though, religions have directly advocated genocide, persecution, war, and oppression. This is fact. This is not a deduction, a debatable theorem, an obscure statistical probability, or an opinion. This is a fact. Men, women, and children were sent to kill and die in the crusades. The middle east sees more death than anywhere else right now. All in the name of religion. Religion is a powerful political and military tool. And I do not want them recruiting, preaching and indoctrinating on my tax dollars. Especially since many religions do not have to pay taxes, lobby for political gain, and use their power to try to push agendas that are contrary to my beliefs.

      Did I mention that the nazi's oppression of the Jews was sanctioned by the catholic pope? A fact that many a catholic has tried to obfuscate and hide. There are several religions that are anti-choice, several that are anti-gay, several that are anti-woman. These are without a question a political agendas. I do not want my tax dollars supporting any (negative) -isms.

      The point of this is that religions have done many things that I do not want my tax dollars to support. Even if it were not worse in my opinion, how do two wrongs (funding football and religion) make it right?

      And you missed one of my essential points, which is that they have a place to gather. It is not the function of the school to provide this, it is the function of the church.

      --
      "Blake is an idealist, Jenna. He cannot afford to think." - Kerr Avon, Star One, Blakes 7
    29. Re:Freedom of Religion? by CrackElf · · Score: 2

      I am not opposed to the expression. I am opposed to cults recruiting on my tax dollars. They have the right to build churches, pass out pamphlets, lobby, and petition, all tax free. The fact is that many, and I dear say most , religions have a political agenda. Now, why should I have my taxes go towards their cause if I do Not agree with their message?

      I do not mind debate, I do not think that religion should be a condemned word in school. But I also do not think that I should be required to fund their recruiting, indoctrination, and political forays.

      These are not some poor group that has nowhere to meet, most of these religous communities have churches already, and the only reason that they want to be in the school is so that they can 'spread their word'. I seriously doubt that these groups will equally represent all religions, or even the majority of religions in the world. And will they even consider atheists? I think not.

      This is not about freedom of speech. People are free to say what they want. This is about groups trying to abuse the system even further to try and get funding and permission to use our schools as recruiting and training grounds.

      --
      "Blake is an idealist, Jenna. He cannot afford to think." - Kerr Avon, Star One, Blakes 7
    30. Re:Freedom of Religion? by flatrock · · Score: 2

      Oops, right words, wrong ammendment. That was the first ammendment. Guess I can't count.

    31. Re:Freedom of Religion? by Tetsujin28 · · Score: 2
      I am not opposed to the expression. I am opposed to cults recruiting on my tax dollars. ...

      This same "Not with my tax dollars!" logic could be used by others to block the teaching of evolution, sex education, racial equality...and pretty much anything else.

      Religion-oriented after-school clubs aren't about adding religion to the curriculum. They are voluntary.

      I'm not necessarily a big fan of such clubs. I just think they should have a right to exist, with standing no better or worse than any other group. And that goes for Wicca, Satanism and SubGenius clubs as much as it does for Chistian, Jewish and Muslim clubs.

      --
      - - - -
      The real Tetsujin 28 is a giant robot.
    32. Re:Freedom of Religion? by CrackElf · · Score: 2

      Well, you pretty much ignored the rest of my argument which is as follows:

      what I take as givens:
      -----
      1) religions have agendas, (eg: anti-choice / anti-woman / anti-gay / anti-aids victims / anti-other religion)
      2) religion has caused the middle east strife, contributed to the nazi pograms, and crusades/jihads. Did i forget to mention the inquisition?
      3) they already have a place to meet , namely the church.
      4) religions can and do pass out pamphlets, organize, lobby, organize and sponsor events, try to recruit powerful members of the government and communities, and preach on street corners.
      5) they already receive many government benefits ... a tax free status, and that is off the top of my head.
      6) many religions want to recruit more members
      7) many religions try to indoctrinate their members, and their potential members
      8) many religions use propaganda and indoctrination to archive 1) 6), and 7)
      9) it is My community to. (even if you want to disregard the fact that I pay taxes)
      10) I pay taxes, taxes are used to fund schools. Churches do not have to pay taxes.

      Logic (note this is English logic, and not strictly mathematical logic):
      -----

      because of 3, I conclude that their is an ulterior motive for wanting to be in schools.

      the most likely reasons (that I can think of) are 6, 7 and 8.

      because of 1 and 2 (among other things) I am wary of religions and their (ab)use of power.

      because of 9 and 10, I feel that it is my right to say that 3 and 5 are enough, and if they want to do 6, 7, and 8, then they can do it with 4, just as they have always done (even if I find some of it distasteful). I do not feel that they deserve (especially given 1 and 2) to have even more (than 5 and 4) special treatment, especially since it involves the recruiting and indoctrination of the youth at an impressionable and naive age (well, at least for some of them;).

      If there were to be any kind of direct involvement of churches in public schools, it should be in the form of an open minded discussion forum for all religions (and atheism), where none are 'pushed' and where tolerance is taught. Although finding people open minded enough to present all angles without letting their personal bias guide their actions is quite a challenge.

      Oh, yes, and sex education, evolution, and racial equality are not a faith based (by definition without any physical evidence) subject. Not to mention the agendas behind them (preventing std transmission and underage pregnancy, furthering science, promoting awareness of racial inequities and trying to prevent their reoccurrence) are all things that I pretty much agree with and condone.

      --
      "Blake is an idealist, Jenna. He cannot afford to think." - Kerr Avon, Star One, Blakes 7
    33. Re:Freedom of Religion? by Tetsujin28 · · Score: 2

      Your "givens" are so carefully selected/filtered to support your result, some to the point of irrelevance, that they make your logic hard for me to take seriously. But if "1" really describes your perception of religion, then I begin to uderstand why you hold the position you do, and why you defend it so strongly.

      --
      - - - -
      The real Tetsujin 28 is a giant robot.
    34. Re:Freedom of Religion? by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 2

      Actually, I understood true Athiesm to be more like: "There is no God, and you can't prove that there is, so I'm right. So there." Which sounds very similar to attitude you ascribed to religion :-)

      What you describe as athiesm, I call Skepticism: "There may or may not be (a) God(s) (or Goddess(es)), but unless you can come up with some test which will provide strong evidence either way, anything you conclude based on the existence or non-existence of such being(s) is pretty much meaningless."

      Not the most graceful way of stating things, but pretty much decribes my views on the matter.

    35. Re:Freedom of Religion? by CrackElf · · Score: 2

      I heard a funny comment on the news last night by an economist with a huge string of credentials about bush's faith based policies. Such as his faith that the economy will recover and that the national debt will not increase (lowering taxes) ... and his faith that the environment will get better with out any commitments by governments (kyoto). Heh.

      --
      "Blake is an idealist, Jenna. He cannot afford to think." - Kerr Avon, Star One, Blakes 7
  2. What a great idea by WinDoze · · Score: 3, Troll

    Also note that having sex with a dozen teenage chicks at a time is part of my religion.

    1. Re:What a great idea by frknfrk · · Score: 2

      actually, if the poster is also teenage, is there any real law prohibiting his actions? :)

      --
      The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
    2. Re:What a great idea by tbone1 · · Score: 3, Funny
      Also note that having sex with a dozen teenage chicks at a time is part of my religion.

      Ms. Poundstone, another outburst like that and I'll find you in contempt of court.

      --

      The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
  3. Article by viper21 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The article in question can be found here

    Hope this helps out. I always hate it when we slashdot a story this quickly.

  4. More Weight by virg_mattes · · Score: 2

    Your message would have more weight if you'd used a spell checker, or even a dictionary. Try "puerile" next time.

    You do realize this article is humor, right?

    Virg

  5. Sinful Confessions? by Deltan · · Score: 4, Funny

    Does this mean that if I sin & distribute DeCSS but confess to it in the DMCA house of god, the evidence can't be used against me in court?

  6. LOL!! by Telek · · Score: 4, Funny

    Then the Great Programmer leaned back in his executive chair, and gazed upon the newborn Universe.

    And frowned. He knew those sentient humans would be a problem. Even after He had sweated over a hot terminal for thirteen days, those humans were ungrateful. They called their place of existence the "Universe", not the "Great Programmer/Universe".


    Richard M Stallman, eat your heart out...!

    --

    If God gave us curiosity
    1. Re:LOL!! by Telek · · Score: 2

      You know, they call that account the Anonymous Coward for a good reason.

      --

      If God gave us curiosity
  7. Protected religious practices by gughunter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If American Indians can't eat peyote for religious rituals, I doubt this idea will fly either... but still, it's a nice thought.

    1. Re:Protected religious practices by fishebulb · · Score: 2, Informative

      actually they can on following certain laws, such as only on reservations etc.

    2. Re:Protected religious practices by Ryan_Terry · · Score: 2, Funny

      So thats what we do....

      We just need to have geek concentratio...errr reservations that we can put these religious fanatics in. Then we could monitor all of their movements, I mean so we could provide them with all the freedoms they desire.

      Then the DMCA could stay in effect for everyone else. I believe Utah has some extra space.

      --
      MessEdUp
      .sig
      #/var/www/v
    3. Re:Protected religious practices by nathanm · · Score: 2

      Not just on reservations. Even Navajos in the military must be allowed to use peyote for certain religious holidays. The chaplains are the ones that acquire the peyote for them. Although they're not allowed to use weapons or machinery or drive for a certain period afterwards.

  8. common sense. by codetalker · · Score: 2

    I remember a while back, here in Canada, a bunch of pot smokers made a religion up by saying that pot was god's method of showing us truth and beauty etc. Needless to say, nothing came of that. It's someone's right to refuse blood, but if a child is refused blood due to the religious beleifs of the parents, and death is possible our government would and has 'taken protective custody' of the child. I know that the DMCA is an American law and this loophole looks towards the American constitution, but governments all really think alike. I don't think the U.S. government would tolerate some of the things the Afghan Taliban does. Here, if your wife cheats on you and you kill her, you go to jail. They don't care what religious right you have. I realise the things a joke but we can dream can't we?

    --
    All a coder really wants, are fast cars, fast women and fast algorithms.
    1. Re:common sense. by tb3 · · Score: 2
      a religion[...] saying that pot was god's method of showing us truth and beauty


      Isn't that Rastafarian?

      --

      www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance

    2. Re:common sense. by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

      Most of the Native American beliefs view Tobacco as a way of being with the Spirits.

      The reason this is interesting is because we all now that if tobacco went up before the FDA today, it would never be approved for human consumption.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  9. the name of the Great Programmer... by faqBastard · · Score: 3, Funny
    Of course the news release doesn't give the name of the Great Programmer. (That would be sacrilege or something I suppose...)


    BILL GATES!!!


    NO!!!!!


    of course, that would explain why humans are so insecure and unstable....

    1. Re:the name of the Great Programmer... by Rimbo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "of course, that would explain why humans are so insecure and unstable...."

      Speak for yourself -- that's just for those of you who are made by Microsoft. We open-source humans, although lacking a user-friendly interface, are much more secure and stable, and when instabilities are encountered, patch our problems up in much less time!

      And our interfaces are improving rapidly, too...

    2. Re:the name of the Great Programmer... by Tackhead · · Score: 2
      > BILL GATES!!!

      Serves you right for running strings() on the results of a KERNEL32.EXE XOR'ed with a dump of vmlinux, doesn't it?

      There are Things that Man Was Not Meant To Know.

      (And now you know why there's that no-reverse-engineering, no-disassembly, no-lookee-at-the-executable clause in your EULA.)

    3. Re:the name of the Great Programmer... by Rimbo · · Score: 2

      But you never seem to have a very visually attractive user interface.

      I don't know, the KDE -- the Kosmetics Disguise Effectation -- can work wonders with even the ugliest of us. :)

    4. Re:the name of the Great Programmer... by unitron · · Score: 2

      Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "Go to hell".

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

  10. Bush Rulez! by graveyhead · · Score: 2

    Yeah! Then Bush will have to support it with his community/religion program. You are therefore compelled to "grep for the divine message" in order to receive Gov't help! This is excellent because it a) gives us a *real* reason to pirate American Pie, and b) pitts the gov't against the MPAA/RIAA in an all out rumble. Where's Jessie Ventura when we need him!

    --
    std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
    1. Re:Bush Rulez! by osu-neko · · Score: 3, Funny
      Where's Jessie Ventura when we need him!

      Annoying those of us who don't need him (e.g. the citizens of Minnesota)...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    2. Re:Bush Rulez! by NonSequor · · Score: 2

      Hey you! Join the Navy!

      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    3. Re:Bush Rulez! by LetterJ · · Score: 2

      Though it carries the bias of the paper itself, the St. Paul Pioneer Press has an archive page of Jesse news.

      http://www.pioneerplanet.com/archive/jesse/

  11. Where have i seen this before? by Overphiend · · Score: 5, Funny

    The P.I. believes that the holy document was actually written last Wednesday when the High Priest had a little too much to drink.

    This procedure for creating a religion seems pretty popular, I believe Scientology was created that way.

  12. Terminology by virg_mattes · · Score: 5, Funny

    > Also note that having sex with a dozen teenage chicks at a time is part of my religion.

    Actually, by the time they're teenaged, they're not "chicks" any more. They're just "chickens" at that point.

    Virg

    1. Re:Terminology by Skynet · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actually, by the time they're teenaged, they're not "chicks" any more. They're just "chickens" at that point.

      And if you want to get REALLY specific, they would be "hens." I don't think that guy would want to boff the rooster. ;-)

      --
      Execute? [Y/N] _
  13. Church of Pron by Alien54 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I can remember a pron theater many years ago in the city of Boston that tried to argue that they were a church, and that their films were part of the sacraments for their worshippers.

    Didn't go very far, but you had to admire their gusto.

    - - -
    Radio Free Nation
    "If You have a Story, We have a Soap Box"
    - - -

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
  14. code review by termchimp · · Score: 2, Funny
    Then the Great Programmer leaned back in his executive chair, and gazed upon the newborn Universe. And frowned. He knew those sentient humans would be a problem.

    That's what the Great Programmer gets for writing self-modifying code.

    --
    My spoon is too big!
  15. Re:cause I can not remember by UberOogie · · Score: 5, Informative
    It depends.

    In most cases (in America), you cannot break the law in the name of religion. Aztecs cannot sacrifice people, Mormons can't practice polygamy, White Power churches cannot lynch people and violate civil rights, Branch Davidians couldn't violate gun laws and practice statutory rape (depending on who you believe).

    However, there are a lot of exceptions, mostly cultural. Amish are except from certain mandatory schooling laws. Native tribes are excempt from prohibitions against hunting endangered animals. Underage Cattholics can drink alcohol as part of services.

    --
    "Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
  16. Religions by scott1853 · · Score: 2, Flamebait

    So what does it actually take to create your own religion? You obviously don't need proof of the existence of a higher power or every religion out there wouldn't be acknowledged. Can I start saying that my god is the "Great Programmer" and get away with stuff, or is there some sort of catch, like you must prove that your IQ is the same as a cabbage to be legally allowed to believe in such things.

    1. Re:Religions by twitter · · Score: 2
      It does not take too much more than followers, as can be seen from Scientology and Mormanism.

      It's funny how athiests think they are so clever. If they could stop worshiping themselves for a moment, get away from a computer, or get a life they might see some grandure in the world and imagine a creator. Religion might then make sense to them. Dimmer bulbs seem to always be blinded by their own light.

      --

      Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    2. Re:Religions by markmoss · · Score: 2
      The IRS has definite regulations for what constitutes a "church" for purposes of tax exemption. They should be on the IRS web site, if you think you can wade through the bureaucratese. I don't have time. I once read a translation of them into plain English, but since the source was biased, I'd like to see someone else's interpretation. According to this source, you've got to give up a lot of your freedoms to qualify, for instance the minister cannot preach against taxation...


      I don't know how closely the courts follow the IRS in determining whether something is a "religion" for other purposes. Certainly they aren't going to allow just any religious practice. You can dance nude around the oak tree on your own fenced land, but not around the oak tree in the city park, except maybe in some California cities. Human sacrifice is out. You can't burn heretics at the stake. If the Hashashin cult were still around, they just might get an exemption for their marijuana concentrates, but not for assassinating enemies of the faith...

  17. Re:Blasphemers! by NonSequor · · Score: 2

    Wrong, it's Lisp.

    --
    My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
  18. ULC eBook? by NitsujTPU · · Score: 2, Funny

    Ahh, as my first administration of the sacrement, I would like to decrypt the ULC eBook in order to gain access to the materials needed for an ordination in a box.

  19. dmca circumvention by Proud+Geek · · Score: 2

    Just encrypt your own transmissions violating the dmca using Really Obvious Encryption, then if someone charges you, you can countersue because they don't have a license from you.

    --

    Even Slashdot wants to hide some things

  20. Religion for geeks, nerds, whatever by mrgoat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Actually, I have been having some pretty serious discussions about this with friends of mine, most of whom are grads from divinity and transpersonal psych backgrounds, as well as with my tech friends (the two happen to coincide quite often as well).

    Truth is, freedom of religion pretty much trumps just about every other right in the US. There are exceptions, but in general, even those who have lost on gambles such as polygamy and controlled substances still have a pretty wide berth on just about anything else.

    As such, many of my friends thought that creating a religion that covers code as an expressive form of religion has come up very often. If you think about it, people who have a deep understanding (deep by the average citizens' point of view, shallow in the tech world) of computers and technology are pretty much regarded as witches by most folks out in the world. The best way, my friends and I thought, to fight this kind of mindset is simply to adopt a shroud of religion.

    Hey Joe, you got a problem with the fact that I know things you don't? Well, I know this because God says ITS OK TO KNOW IT. Join my religion, and you can know it too. Just follow the rules. All of the sudden, most of the arguements over whether it should be legal to even KNOW about system security or info sec goes out the window by most peoples' standards if a christian church says its ok, then maybe it isnt the work of the devil, or witches, or evil haxors. Its ok, because god says it can exist.

    Yeah, I know that there is some moral reckoning in how the above is presented that wouldn't wash with some knowledgeable and highly ethical people. I don't care. I care about not being picked out of a crowd because I know something other people don't. I care about having something besides the EFF to back my ass up when someone decides to sue me or press charges over something nobody really understands, but hey, THATS OK to press charges, HE knows TECH. He's GOT TO be a witch/evil haxor/apostate.

    Fact is, I really do think whatever force that holds it all together talks through us and what we do. I don't think that it would be too unusual to start a church or temple or whatever to back that up, and to spread more knowledge around. Yeah, there are the baptists down the street, they are having a bake sale; the Catholics are having roulette night...oh, look over there, that new church, they are having free computer lessons!

    Anyways, we never got around to getting that IDEA off the ground. It was a nice one. However, that may happen in the future. Essentially, at the time, nobody wanted to do the research to write the canon and background literature. Everybody was busy working. Well, now that the bubble has burst, we've got that time. Maybe it will happen, maybe not.

    But really think about it...not many organizations can pull off the kind of stunts that folks need when shit hits the fan. Maybe a religion might not be a bad idea, jokes aside.

    --

    'Hail Eris, baby, hail Eris...pfffffffttt.' *cough* 'Yeah.'
    1. Re:Religion for geeks, nerds, whatever by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

      computers and technology are pretty much regarded as witches by most folks out in the world


      This is more true than you know. The average person regards a computer as a magic box into which you must insert the Holy Offering (CD) begin the ritual incantation (run the installer,) hope that you've appeased it (pre-requisites) and pray for it to work (how many times have you seen somebody say something like "Please work, please work, come on, please work, oh God please work!") and, when things don't work, call upon the Holy Priesthood (sys admins and the like) who then do things which are beyond the ken of mere mortals.

      And how many people regard their computers as sentient and malevolent?
      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  21. Memo to the MPAA Membership from Jack Valenti by dinotrac · · Score: 3, Funny

    It has come to my attention that some of you think that we should incorporate ourselves as a religion based on tightly holding on to our intellectual property and trampling anyone who thinks their pitiful little rights matter.

    This would be pointless. I know that some of you are concerned because some religions have sprung up that worship free speech and such things.

    Just remember what happened years ago when John Lennon made the mistake of saying that the Beatles were bigger than Jesus.

    He was wrong. The Beatles weren't. We, however, are.

    Sincerely yours,

    Jack Valenti

  22. Re:Blasphemers! by VB · · Score: 2


    He would obviously pull out a rock and a pointy stick and code directly into punch cards...

    --
    www.dedserius.com
    VB != VisualBasic
  23. Re:Seperation of Church and State by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    The founding fathers did not have a problem with state sponsored religions, most of them were deeply religous men. At the time the Constitution was written several of the original states had official religions. The purpose of the 'separation of church and state' clause was to prevent the Federal government from sponsoring a religion.

    Official state religions slowly withered away in the years following the signing of the Constitution. Now people who have no knowledge of why that clause exists in the Constitution believe it means something totally orthogonal to its original meaning. Welcome to Amerika.


  24. Sounds like a forking from... by Black+Art · · Score: 5, Funny

    the First Disassembly of God church.

    In the First Disassembly of God church we seek to reverse engineer the nature of the cosmos and supply weekly diffs and patches at our worship services. (As well as debugging of the faithful, documenting the numberous ways of violating syntax, and distribution of the Wine libraries and /etc/hosts file.)

    --
    "Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
    1. Re:Sounds like a forking from... by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Funny
      > In the First Disassembly of God church we seek to reverse engineer the nature of the cosmos and supply weekly diffs and patches at our worship services.

      Actually, what you describe as the First Disassembly of God church goes back at least 2500 years.

      Its members are called "physicists".

      A guy in a bathtub started it. They named a screw after him. There was another guy who had an apple fall on his head. Another guy drew ellipses and shaded in sections of 'em. Then there was a bunch of devotees who played around with magnets and batteries, and following them, some folks with a thing for that glowing gunk that came out of pitchblende. Someone figured out that you can use the bits that fly off the glowing gunk to bash bits of non-glowing gunk, and that the non-glowing gunk is mostly empty space. You can even take the small bits of gunk that aren't empty space and bash 'em against each other, and see what they're made of. (Even if you can never measure precisely where the bits of gunk are, or how much momentum they have, at any given moment. Uh, we're still working on how God pulled that one off.)

      By the way, if anyone knows what any of this "small-bits-of-gunk-that-you-can't-measure-where-i t-is-and-sometimes-it-acts-like-a-wave hack" has to do with God's other weird hack - the one that makes heavy stuff like apples, move towards other heavy stuff like planets (unless some church member's head is in the way), please apply for membership ASAP. We're pretty stumped on this bit.

  25. But... by MO! · · Score: 2
    Will I be forgiven by The Great Programmer? For I have sinned... In my youth, I did codeth in COBOL!! [cries in fetal position] I knew not what I was doing!!!

    --
    I AM, therefore I THINK!
  26. Re:Protected religious practices...Congress Helps by darkPHi3er · · Score: 5, Funny

    WASHINGTON POSTTIMESHEARLD
    WASHINGTON, DC: Aug 30, 2001

    As Congress furiously discussed what to do with the newly discovered "First Church Of Digital Grepping" and its alleged dogma that requires its members to constantly search through copyrighted materials for sacred meaning and salvation, the lobbying organizations for the entertainment and publishing sprang into action.

    The entertainments' lawyer and lobbyists have already brought about a marked increase in donations of cash, luxury cars, booze, dope and the deployment of hookers.

    One crack addict in a poor neighborhood of DC told us today, "Man, you can't score any good shit with it all going to them Congressmen. We down here smoking Draino and hoping those lobbyists from the entertainment industment get whatever the hell it is they want so we can get our freak back on!"

    Another professional worker in the recreational sex business tells relates a similar story, "Geez, it's normally bad enough here with all these Congressmen around. Can't keep in they pants, anyway. You know how it is, if they ain't doing one of us out here, they doing the American people in there. But with all them lawyers and lobbyists working Congress about that Geek Religion thing, its nearly as bad for a sex worker as it is when they ain't no interns around. That's the worst, it's just every ho for themselves then and pray for new load of interns."

    Sources within the entertainment industry say their goal is the simple protection of the artists.

    One anonymous source said, "Look we all know that the actual artist, the creator who is the principal beneficiary of our actions here. We're going to ensure that the people who create the movies, music and books that we all love and cherish continue to receive their .0000001% of all our net net revenues. We're very serious about this."

    Another source said that perhaps a solution similar to the one used with Native American peoples would be effective in dealing with "The First Church Of Digital Grepping".

    That is, round all them up, march two thousand miles in the middle of winter. Take their computers and ATM cards away from them. Give them habitats in faroff remote Northern rural areas, and allow them to practice their supposed religion two or three times a year, under close Bureau of Geek Affairs supervision.

    --
    Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
  27. Re:So called "Great Programmer" by Xerithane · · Score: 2
    Every programmer knows the correct way to measure your greatness is to see how many lines you can write without getting any errors. (Syntax or logical).


    Hence, The Great Programmer really was probably a kid playing with Deity Basic his mom got him for christmas and now we're stuck living in his malformed world because he doesn't know proper techniques.


    But.. is it really a surprise thinking of it this way. This explains every natural disaster, problem, and why-do-bad-things-happen-to-good people.



    Karma.c:293:

    if ( entity.action() == K_GOOD )
    entity.karma(entity.karma()-1);

    ...

    if ( entity.karma()
    All because of a single typo.. damn I need a more productive job..

    --
    Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
  28. Re:how long? by room101 · · Score: 4, Funny

    ah, geez, and don't get me started on the "void main" thing.

    (that should be "int main")

    --
    room101 -- how much can you stand before they break you?
    (they always break you eventually)
  29. Re:cause I can not remember by UberOogie · · Score: 2
    It has more to do with legal standards on what is acceptable. For instance many indian tribes are allowed to use payote. But it also has to do with a community standard on what should be allowed to be done.

    My understanding is also that the church would have to have a precident to it. So a church that was created right after the DMCA was written specifically to override the DMCA wouldn't work at all. However, the catholics have a long established tradition of the sacrament. If memory serves many people in the 60s tried to argue that they couldn't be drafted because of a freedom of religion (they started a religion to avoid the draft). The courts held that one couldn't merely start a relegion to avoid a law.

    By the way, the mormon church gave up pologomy of their own accord before even joining the union. It's not a matter of the law telling them not to. - AC post above

    This was informative, and I didn't have mod points, and just wanted to make sure it got read.

    --
    "Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
  30. Re:Seperation of Church and State by ConsumedByTV · · Score: 2

    Its funny to argue this point with anyone but here goes....

    Satanic [or Satanists for that matter] clubs do not in anyway promote evil, killing or any other bad morals that would adversly affect a society. For the most part "Anton Le Vay" satanists are the perfect citizen because they only work for a better life here on earth instead of spirtual pipe dreams. I cannot think of a better club for school. I would hope that people would understand some day that Satanist's do not worship Satan. Most Satanists do not even believe in god. This is the offical stand point I have about myself, and what most other satanists have told me when I have met them.

    Back to the point here I think that if you allow one club, you should make room for all of them. I personaly found that my high school (back in the day here...) had a club called: C.H.A.O.S (Christ has all our anwsers) but to start a club you needed a teacher to sponser you. Needless to say that anyone that wanted a christian club could find a sponsor, but I could not get one for my club S.I.N. (Satanism is Natural), so I was allowed to have a club of this nature, but I wasnt allowed to have this club with out a sponsor. The lesson learned is leave the descrimination up to the teachers and you only get the type of clubs the teachers would join.

    --


    "Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness." - M
  31. Reverend-in-a-server-applet by BigBlockMopar · · Score: 2

    Hey! That ULC website is really cool. Now, I've got a prefix for my name.

    Anyone know of something like that for a Ph.D? Or, at least, a very easy mail-order or online course?

    "Dr. Lawrence Wade" suits my officious nature far more than "Rev. Lawrence Wade".

    --
    Fire and Meat. Yummy.
  32. Re:how long? by ink · · Score: 4, Funny

    That all depends on if He planned for the universe to ever exit(). We will need to consult the prophets to find the answer.

    --
    The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
  33. Re:Seperation of Church and State by ConsumedByTV · · Score: 2

    You cant win with someone that doesnt fight with facts.

    --


    "Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness." - M
  34. It's a valid question... by Danse · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Even if he did make it somewhat inflammatory. I'd like to know as well. What makes a religion "legitimate" in the eyes of the government?

    --
    It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    1. Re:It's a valid question... by Ondo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What makes a religion "legitimate" in the eyes of the government?

      Going totally from memory, it requires "sincere belief". There was some case of a prisoner claiming his religion required some sort of better treatment than he was getting, I think he wanted certain foods, or some such that way. It was pretty clearly a case (like this) of making up a religion for a specific purpose.

      I don't recall it real clearly, but it was something like that. Hopefully this is enough someone interested can find more info about it.

    2. Re:It's a valid question... by Danse · · Score: 2

      Sounds very subjective and prone to abuse. How is a judge or other official to know what someone sincerely believes? Where do they draw the line between someone who simply thinks or feels that they should follow a certain way of life and those that "sincerely believe" that they should follow a certain way of life?

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    3. Re:It's a valid question... by G27+Radio · · Score: 2

      Sounds very subjective and prone to abuse. How is a judge or other official to know what someone sincerely believes? Where do they draw the line between someone who simply thinks or feels that they should follow a certain way of life and those that "sincerely believe" that they should follow a certain way of life?

      A campaign contribution of $10 certainly would not indicate that the church is truly sincere about their cause. However a $100,000 campaign contribution probably would. How regularly contributions are made would also be a good indicator of the strength a church's beliefs. This simple formula has worked well for our leaders when determining what's right for citizens for years. I imagine it would apply to a religion just the same as any other group.

      In a courtroom they'd probably have to judge sincerity on the number of high-profile attornies representing you. If you show up with a public defender then you obviously don't care too much about the outcome.

  35. the mess the Founding Fathers wanted to avoid? by Gorimek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Were government run schools really around much when the constitution was written? I though they became the norm 50-100 years later.

    The best solution to this whole mess would be to get the governemnt out of the school business altogether. It's not like they're doing a good job or anything...

    1. Re:the mess the Founding Fathers wanted to avoid? by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 2

      What was the literacy rate in this country before public schools? What is the literacy rate in countries that lack them? They may not be doing as good a job as they used to do, and they are certainly not doing as good a job as we might like, but they are doing far, far better than nothing.

  36. Re:So called "Great Programmer" by Tackhead · · Score: 2
    > The Great Programmer really was probably a kid playing with Deity Basic his mom got him for christmas and now we're stuck living in his malformed world because he doesn't know proper techniques.

    Hmm, maybe that explains the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. He was using FDIVs on a Pentium to model the particle positions and momentum vectors.

    (Schrodinger's Cat is just the Excel spreadsheet that makes it show up in dollar amounts. Bell's Theorem is, uh... well, we're still trying to figure that one out. But it's pretty weird)

  37. Re:Seperation of Church and State by kilgore_47 · · Score: 2

    had a club called: C.H.A.O.S (Christ has all our anwsers)

    I remember that. But then they changed it to the C.I.A.: Christians in Action. They sang songs around the flagpole, put up posters with bible passages around school, and even got some airtime on the school P.A. now and then.

    I had a talk with the vice-principal about it. He agreed that they were probably crossing the line in some areas, but said it was "too popular to shut down". This is in sunny liberal california, btw.

    --
    ___
    The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
  38. Hmmm by twitter · · Score: 2
    try replacing Bible Clubs with Gay and Lesbian Student Aliance:

    The arguments aren't whether kids are allowed to form Gay and Lesbian Student Aliances, but whether allowing the clubs to use school property constitutes state support of homosexuality. My own view is that it does not, but reasonable people may differ on this point.

    Kinda falls on it's face when you apply it to someone else's pet group, don't it?

    Don't forget to recomend government restrictions on gun ownership because "militias" no longer serve a useful purpose now that constitutionally banned standing armies exist. Also, you might argue that the government should be alowed to billet those troops in your house because only criminals have things to hide. Reasonable people can differ, right?

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  39. The unclear part by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

    The unclear part is how to apply this when the each of these two adjacent sentence clauses (no establishment/no prohibition) contradict each other.

    It is unclear whether providing overhead (electricity, land, janitorial services etc) support for people egaged in religious activity constitutes a move, however tiny, towards the establishment of religion. Neither is it perfectly clear that forbidding equally all such support to all such groups effectively prohibits their right to excercise freedom of religion.

    People tend to see the issue as perfectly clear cut on one side or the other. It isn't, in my opinion. It is perfectly possible, in my view, that the framers left us with situations where those two adjacent phrases give us two contradictory imperatives, at least viewed using two valued logic.

    Let A be the proposition that letting the students meet on school property is kind of state establishment of religion. Let B be the proposition that not letting the students meet on school property limits their free excercise of religion.

    It's not a black and white issue. Propositions like this aren't true or false in the same way that "3 > 2" or "pi is irrational" are. They are matters of judgement, and can be somewhat true or somewhat false. I happen to think A is practically completely false (but to a tiny degree true); and B is mostly false (but considerably more true than A). Therefore, I favor the students being allowed to meet, but I can see how other people would have different opinions.

    Since neither A, nor B is anything like 50% true, I'm not going to get very worked up either way. Since there is not way to split the difference (the students are allowed to meet on the property or they are not), then either decision is somewhat good and somewhat bad.

    Now, if the policy where not applied equally to atheists, jews, pagans, muslims and christians, then I would definitely get very excited about it, since it would be a clear step towards establishment.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:The unclear part by tzanger · · Score: 2

      • Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

      The unclear part is how to apply this when the each of these two adjacent sentence clauses (no establishment/no prohibition) contradict each other.

      It is unclear whether providing overhead (electricity, land, janitorial services etc) support for people egaged in religious activity constitutes a move, however tiny, towards the establishment of religion. Neither is it perfectly clear that forbidding equally all such support to all such groups effectively prohibits their right to excercise freedom of religion.

      This is the old "reducing to absurdity" logical fallacy. You could argue that the use of a state park or parking lot constitues a move, however tiny, to the establishment of religion.

      There are times to nitpick and times not to. This is (to me) clearly a time not to do so. You take the law in the context it was meant to be in, instead of breaking it apart to this level. I believe there is a judicial term for this but I haven't got a clue what it is.

    2. Re:The unclear part by hey! · · Score: 2

      So you see, your quandry regarding the slippery slope to establishment is not neccesary.

      Not to criticize your well reasoned response, I wasn't arguing that there was a "slipperly slope". I was arguing that propositions of this sort are fuzzy. I don't believe that they become more true or less true over time.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  40. Re:cause I can not remember by coldmist · · Score: 2, Informative

    Please notice your examples and how they break down into two major camps: Ones that violate someone else's rights and ones that don't.

    Killing someone (even in Religion's name) is violating that person's right to life (whether it be voluntary or not is another question). Whereas an "underage" person taking the sacrament in the Catholic church is not violating anyone else's rights.

    Classic quote by Frederic Bastiat in The Law (1850):

    No society can exist unless the laws are respected to a certain degree. The safest way to make laws respected is to make them respectable. When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law. These two evils are of equal consequence, and it would be difficult for a person to choose between them. The nature of law is to maintain justice. This is so much the case that, in the minds of the people, law and justice are one and the same thing. There is in all of us a strong disposition to believe that anything lawful is also legitimate. This belief is so widespread that many persons have erroneously held that things are "just" because law makes them so.
    --
    Don't steal. The government hates competition.
  41. Just great! by Otto · · Score: 3, Funny

    We don't even have our own religion for a freakin' day and already it gets forked into splinter factions! Bah!

    --
    - Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  42. Re:knitpicking.... by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

    Good thing He didn't use Java; I don't think humanity would survive the garbage collection process. And lets face it, we're leaking resources and the Earth's going to GPF real soon now.

    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  43. Proof of a religion by Teancum · · Score: 2
    Except for exotic laws like was mentioned regarding the IRS, there are some more common-sense policies regarding if something is a religion or simply something contrived to get away with something.

    1. Number of Adherants - Face it, numbers count, and if you can provide a pile of registered voters, most politicians will stay out of your way. Mormonism and Scientology have both improved their polticial standing by increasing their numbers. Of course on a related note, money talks as well, but numbers bring money. In the case of Scientology, they have more clout than their numbers would indicate because their members tend to be wealthier.
    2. Standard Beliefs - If there are some clearly defined rules and "scriptures" to the religion. Clearly the Bible falls in the category, as well as the Book of Mormon, the Koran, books by L. Ron Hubbard, etc. I even heard of one person who got away with bringing the Lord of the Rings books into US Army basic training because he claimed that he was a "Tolkeinist", and worshiped the beings in those books. Oh, and because these "rules" or "commandments" are written down, it makes it harder for you to change your beliefs to fit the moment.
    3. Formal Organization - Again, this is something to do with the IRS, but you can apply for becoming a non-profit charitable organization (which doesn't even require professing a belief in god... some atheistic "social" organizations have been set up this way). Set up the by-laws of your group and prove to the IRS that you intend to spend every dime that comes into your organization. There are a few other regulations, but it isn't all that difficult.
    4. Tradition - It helps if you can prove that your organization was started before mankind kept records. Druids, Wicca, and Judiaism all seem to fit this rather well. Christianity is a somewhat recent upstart religion at just 2000 years. Of course claims to be a "modern" continuation of older rites are done by a number of religions as well.
    5. Break-off splinter groups - You aren't really a true religion until you have had your first major schism. People are fickle and don't want to necessarily follow the "orthodox" viewpoint. Now I'm not calling those splinter groups valid religions, but the ones they splintered off from can be looked on as such. Now just prove who is the splinter group?


    To be defined as a religion doesn't take all of these things, but the more you got, the more it helps. For the most part, judges will use "common sense" for something like proving is a belief system is a legitamate religion. This approach to worshiping code certain can take on many aspects though.

    BTW, using religion as an aspect of political protest has a much longer tradition than even non-violent protests that you see much more commonly, and tends to get neglicted by the ruling governments until they can't do anything about it. (C.F. Christianity and the Roman Empire, as well as the Catholic Church and Communism... especially in Poland and much of Eastern Europe).
  44. hey guys! by Eil · · Score: 2

    "The mission of the church is to make digital copies of
    every music CD, every movie DVD, and every printed book and
    then grep the digital version for any tell-tale signs of
    'The Meaning Of Life'."


    That won't be neccessary. I've got a copy of it on VHS that I'll loan you! (Warning: the flick is extremely British.)

  45. Re:how long? by Tackhead · · Score: 2
    > That all depends on if He planned for the universe to ever exit(). We will need to consult the prophets to find the answer.


    Why bother? Aren't we pretty sure the halting problem isn't solvable?


    (That is, even if you had the answer to the halting problem out of divine revelation from the Great Programmer, by Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, you'd never be able to prove it...)

  46. Re:cause I can not remember by mpe · · Score: 2

    You just can't have 5 people filing their taxes as "married" all to one person. Technically speaking, as far as the law was concerned, it *would* be adultery, but I don't think there's laws against that.

    Technically speaking, in the US, a constitutional ammendment (specifically modifying the 14th) would be required to even allow different income taxation for marrieds and non-marrieds.

  47. Re:Religions - Funny (curious) by r2ravens · · Score: 2

    Funny that the Universal Life Church, Inc. has been brought up repeatedly in this thread.

    The founder, Kirby J. Hensley, was a guy who didn't believe in tax-exempt status for churches. He fought this law for a long time, even including suing the IRS, and he lost at every turn - (big surprise, eh?).

    As an extreme effort, he figured that he might try to form his own church and make it profit oriented , but not so much that it would look like a disingenous effort. Then, when the IRS turned him down for tax-exempt status, he could use this as a precedent to fight again for repeal of the tax-exempt status of the more mainstream churches.

    Much to his surprise, the IRS granted him tax-exempt status. I think he folded at that point and I guess he figured, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

    At least that's the condensed version of the story I heard when I became a minister with the Universal Life Church, Inc. in 1979. Five bucks and I was a minister. I can marry people, bury people, and legally avoid the draft on concientious objector status. I qualify for any benefit that any other clergy would receive. (I even signed the certificate for my step-daughters marriage. My now ex-wife performed the Pagan ceremony.)

    Additionally, myself and two others can form a local chapter of the church, take a vow of poverty, donate all our secular income to our church (which then takes care of all our bills), and donate our home(s) to our chapter of the church - then the home comes off the property tax rolls as church property.

    The potential tax savings are incredible.

    What does it take to create your own religion? I guess if you follow in the footsteps of ULC, that should be close enough. If someone does, please let me know, I'd join up.

    Open Source Software - it's the difference between Trust and Anti-Trust.

    --
    War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. - George Orwell or George Bush?
  48. Re:Seperation of Church and State by ConsumedByTV · · Score: 2

    Because in our society, Satan represents the advesary in christian mythos. Satan represents what we do, Satan represents what america stands for. Free speech even when its against god, sex, the abilty to vote for the other party that isnt a christian. Satanism is what comes natural. Christianty is living like a monk for god. If your inbetween your confused.

    --


    "Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness." - M
  49. Nothing? by Gorimek · · Score: 2

    "Better than nothing" is a pretty low standard though. The alternative wouldn't be to replace them with nothing, but with competing private schools. Harry Brown puts the argument pretty well here.

    Oh, and comparing literacy rates from before public schools (1840?) and 2001 is of course of very litle value, since society has changed in 42 zillion other ways in between.

  50. Freedom of Religion vs. Corporate America by Maul · · Score: 2
    I wonder: If there was a really big battle in the courts between religion (any of the major ones in the US) and corporate greed, who would come out victorious? Both of these things are supposedly represented by the right wingers in Washington, right?


    Basically, for a large chunk of the republican party, their whole "morality" play is just a ploy to dupe the churchgoing population into voting for them. There are still LOTS of people who attend church (esp. in rural areas) and would like to see our government represent good morals. However, sooner or later, I believe that we'll see congress siding up with the businesses they are truly loyal to as opposed to the faithful.


    Might be something hard to percieve, but it isn't impossible. For instance, maybe a church group decides to protest outside of many movie theaters or the movie studio that they disagree with the content of a movie. The studio feels that the protesting is hurting their movie at the box office, and sues them, or lobbies congress for new laws to shut up "moral" protesters.


    Or perhaps a poor country church is accused by the RIAA of having a "public performance" of one of the songs "owned" by them without proper lisencing.


    These things have probably happened quietly in the past. But maybe the media corporations will try to squash out the religious types after they are done dealing with the "evil hacker" types. I'm sure parents who are trying to raise their kids to follow their faith rather than becoming zombie consumers are pretty annoying to media corps.


    BTW, Corporations want to convey the idea that file and intellectual property sharing == theft.
    Hmn, an interesting quote here....



    And all that believed were together, and had all things common

    And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.


    Acts 2:44-45 (KJV)


    Of course, this verse was written almost 2000 years ago, but it does pertain to the sharing of goods and possessions with other people in your church. During the days of the early Christians, there really was no such thing as Intellectual Property as far as it exists today. I guess if you were to read this one loosely then you could justify sharing of things such as software between church members if there was a need for it. Just a thought anyway.


    It is scary, however, how much we've let our rights get trampled over.


    We've pretty much already given up on the right to bear arms in this country. Now we've got all of these gun control laws in place that were put there comfort all of those who are foolish enough to trade freedom for a false sense of security.


    Let us not give up the rights guaranteed in the 1st. Ammendment just so we can stop the "evil hackers" out there from "stealing" from corporate fat cats. Congress is so sold out... if we sit here and let them, they WILL take away our other rights gradually if it benefits the corporations who bought them.

    --

    "You spoony bard!" -Tellah

  51. Re:how long? by vidarh · · Score: 2
    The halting problem is about the generic case, not a special case.

    That is, you can't find a way to prove that any program P will halt, but you can find infinite P for which you can decide whether it will halt or not.

  52. Re:how long? by mikera · · Score: 2

    Perhaps the Great Programmer is writing to something a little more powerful than a mere Turing Machine?

    My guess is that "Does [reg1] halt on [reg2]" is an one-cycle machine code instruction on His Almighty Box.

    Obviously, the registers are cabable of holding arbitrary length lambda expressions. Much more elegant than all this primitive finite state rubbish.

  53. Re:how long? by mikera · · Score: 2

    Other useful instructions:

    "Is function [reg1] equal to function [reg2]"

    We can't do this for general functions at the moment. Problem is caused by the fact that lots of different algorithms produce the same result for all possible input, and are therefore equal functions.

    "Calculate (possibly countable infinite) set determined by condition [reg1] on superset [reg2]"

    "return [reg1]th element of countable set [reg2] ordered by comparison function [reg3]"

    This would be handy for stuff like calculating the set of all primes.

    "Calculate maximum of function [reg1] on set [reg2]"

    Really, really useful.

  54. Re:Hmmm by hey! · · Score: 2

    [paraphrase]The arguments aren't whether kids are allowed to form Gay and Lesbian Student Aliances, but whether allowing the clubs to use school property constitutes state support of homosexuality. My own view is that it does not, but reasonable people may differ on this point. [paraphrase]

    Kinda falls on it's face when you apply it to someone else's pet group, don't it?


    Not really. I think it applies just as well to Christians, Gays, and Nazis equally.

    Why do you think I would have a problem with gays?

    It's funny how people seem to think I'm either a foaming at the mouth Christian zealot or a flaming secular humanist, because I can see both sides of the argument.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  55. Terminal-ology by virg_mattes · · Score: 2

    Think "teenaged" in chicken years.

    Virg

  56. Re:wow, it's just like you went to my school by kilgore_47 · · Score: 2

    Nothing to figure. You were just doing it to piss off the other students. You didn't really believe in anything good or bad, by your own admission you were just trying to cause trouble.

    So its in the hands of school administrators to decide who's faith is pure enough to be allowed in-school worship?
    Thats no good at all!

    --
    ___
    The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
  57. . . . a bit of Con Law by davebo · · Score: 2
    So, while you're correct in that the 2nd amendment mearly states what Congress may or may not do, the protections of the Bill of Rights have long since been extended to cover actions of State/Local governments through the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment.

    Feel free to check the rather in-depth anaylsis of this amendment at Findlaw. A search on Google will turn up some less-dense discussions of this amendment's implications as well.

  58. who cares what Hey thinks? by twitter · · Score: 2
    Your opinion is much less important than the law or allocation of resources, but I think you are either ignornant or a troll. The substitution of groups was designed to make you think, if you were simply ignorant. Either that failed and you need some more help, or you are a troll. Let me try to help some more so that you might see religious groups are generally humiliated against prevailing American tollerance.

    The fact is that Christian groups are not treated as well as homosexual organizations. School administrators frown on religious groups while promoting homosexual group activities. Just look at Chicago sometime where public money is spent on a seperate prom for homosexuals. Yet church groups are looked on as strange and subversive. This kind of treatment is not confined to Chicago. So much the better for homosexuals, as long as these events and clubs are not being used for the exploitation of children by their supposed gaurdians.

    It is perverse that the "establishment clause" which aims to protect religious expresion is used to opress religion. It seeks to protect religious expression in part by preventing the formation of a single state sponsored religion, but mosly by telling the state that no laws should be made against any religious activity or speach. People who prevent church groups from using public property by creating rules or laws against such use have clearly violated the constitution's spirit and letter.

    It's hard to model yourself as moderate and side with those who violate the rights of others. The framers of the constitution considered homosexuality such a perversion as to continue to keep it unlawful. America has become a more tollerant place than that. Why would you side with anyone less tollerant than the constitution's framers? To "see the both sides" there is to give legitimacy to oppresors.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:who cares what Hey thinks? by hey! · · Score: 2

      I think you are either ignornant or a troll.

      *sigh*.

      It's hard to model yourself as moderate and side with those who violate the rights of others.

      But I didn't side with the people who you disagree with. I actually sided with you. I just refused to demonize people who disagree with our common position.

      To "see the both sides" there is to give legitimacy to oppresors

      There's another phrase for "seeing both sides". It's called "open mindedness". Open mindedness doesn't mean you agree with everyone, it just means you try to understand why people who disagree with you take the position they do. Unfortunately, your post does little to advance the perception that one can be Christian and open minded as well.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  59. Re:Seperation of Church and State by ConsumedByTV · · Score: 2

    Yes I realise that this is true, however in Anton Le vay Satanism, Satan is called such because he is the advesary to god. To christianity's hipocrocy comes a figure agaisnt this, he is the opposite, he is Satan. He does what is correct in life, he follows what he says. After all its god that starves the little children after putting them here, right?

    --


    "Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness." - M
  60. Re:how long? by Tackhead · · Score: 2
    > Perhaps the Great Programmer is writing to something a little more powerful than a mere Turing Machine?
    >
    > My guess is that "Does [reg1] halt on [reg2]" is an one-cycle machine code instruction on His Almighty Box.

    Wow, could you imagine a Beowulf cluster of...

    ...nevermind, already been done - the Everett-Wheeler-Graham "many-worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics. ;)