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U.S. Attack -- More Updates
I'm trying to get stuff together, and post an update: The Pentagon, which evidently has partly collapsed with a chasm 200-300 feet across, and fires on six
stories, has ordered the USS JFK and George Washington into NYC. PLEASE GIVE BLOOD. Over 200 firemen are reported missing, and
reports of 50,000 dead in the WTC collapse are being bandied about. Dick Cheney has assumed control of the White House, and is in the situation room there. GWB is not returning to the White House until things have calmed down -- and has gone evidently to an undisclosed location. The [CDC] in Atlanta has largely evacuated but has activated their bioterrorism
units. American Airlines flight 11, the first to crash into the WTC, was going from BOS -> LAX. There are rumors of Akamai's founder being onboard on Flight 11, As well, the rumor is that the pilot of United Flight 193 flew it in
into the ground, outside Pittsburgh, rather then fly into the USX building, which if true, makes him a better person then I -- but there are also rumors that it was shot down by a F-16. United Flight 175 also crashed into the WTC, according to Boston.com, and originated from Boston -- so the WTC was both Boston
flights. Reports of a car bomb that was supposed to have gone off int front the State Department have been denied. In a statement, the Taliban government of Afghanistan has denied any involvement, and Yassar Arafat has denounced the attack. Remember: No one knows who did this yet, so don't make any assumptions -- remember what people
first thought about the OKC attack. In other news, the US - Mexico/Canada borders are being heavily screened; all air traffic has been grounded; nationwide federal
buildings are being evacuated; NATO personnel in Brussells have been sent home, Israeli embassies worldwide have been evacuated, all U.S. Disney parks shut down;
major parts of European cities, Britain in particular, are being shut down; stock trading is shut down in all major European and American exchanges. There are 50 flights still in the air, with 2
international flights that have yet to respond. F16s from the US Air Force has been instructed to shoot down flights in a no fly zone over NYC & DC - an AVI of the WTC plane or mpeg here.
More as we
know.Update: 09/11 18:10 PM GMT by H :I've heard on NPR that all flights and planes are now accounted for -- but that a fifth crash has occurred in an undisclosed location. As well, a car bomb did go off in front of the State Department, and there was a crash near Camp David. There's a well done timeline - we also had a report from someone who lives 3 miles away from the PA crash. Evidently the plane veered several times, and then smashed into an abandoned strip mine - which was luckily not near any people or anything.
FWIW, I'm not a citizen of the U.S. nor do I live there.
Violence induces more violence. Retaliation will only lead to more deaths. If you are a citizen of the U.S. of America, please write your representative right now and ask him to join a plea for peace. Historically the U.S. reaction to this kind of attack is to counter strike. It's highly probably that it's already being planned or even carried on. That will solve nothing. You might get even, but that achieves nothing. The death will not come back and the attack has been already recorded on the books of history. At this point in time, counter attacking is irrational and puts not only the lives of U.S. citizens at risk, but those of lots of people all arround the world, too.
People, give blood wherever you live, regardless of whether it's in California or in Rhode Island!
Michael C. Hollinger
As I write this preparations or underway to turn our studio into an emergency blood donation center for the American Red Cross. They need help. Business want to help but most do not have the advantage we (martial art schools across the US) do; lots of floor space for them to setup.
If you can't help this way please just go and donate blood today.
My prayers go out to the hundreds, if not thousands of families who lost a loved one today. NYC is my home town. All I can do from 1375 miles away I will.
Peace,
Sandor Urban
Prospecting Stinks. Stop Wasting Time on Cold Calling.
Nostradamus's predictions have been constantly discredited, being not only applicable to all sorts of events in past 500 years, but also originally written in an obscure version of french that was regularly mistranslated.
Please, put your doomsayer sandwichboards down and stop ringing the bells.
(Not you Diomedes, you talk sense)
Smid
This is certainly one of the worst things I have ever witnessed, and that includes being in London during IRA bombings.
I just have been thinking: who on Earth is going to take responsibility for this?? As soon as one has spoken up, yes, he will be a flat spot on the wall.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
"I fear all we have done is to wake a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve."
Japanese Admiral Yamamoto
After attack on Pearl Harbor
Quoted from http://www.nps.gov/fdrm/generation/ph.htm
First plane: American Airlines, Flight 11, Boston=>LA, 92 on board.
Second: UA, 175, Boston=>LA, ?.
Third (Pentagon): AA, 77, Dulles=>LA, 64.
Four: UA, 93, Newark=>SF, ?.
Five: UA, Camp David.
Six: (PA crash),
Seven: (CO crash?), UA?, 175, =>LA?
Many planes still in the air, none currently threatened.
Crash Five may be a rumour. I keep seeing it scroll by on the TV, but I've read that it's been denied.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
It's pretty easy for us on /. to decry law enforcement aids like facial recognition hardware and software when times are good. However, it's at times of senseless tragedy like this when we really need to stop and think about letting law enforcement have the tools they need to prevent wanton acts of distruction like this.
Abuses of those tools should be another discussion entirely -- an important discussion, but not a paranoid paralyzing one.
I'm usually fairly detached during times like this, but by myself, watching the coverage, and imagining the enormity of the loss of life, mental health, peace, property, and productivity -- I couldn't help but cry in frustration at not being able to do anything.
I'm sure I wasn't the only one. To those of you who felt likewise, don't forget that feeling. When the time comes when you're able to voice your support for tools and methods to stop these methods of terrorism, don't be silent.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
"An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind" - Ghandi
Are more dead people the answer here? Take a minute to think before screaming for vengence.
That footage of the South Tower getting hit by the 757(?) is just chilling.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Counter attacking is not a good solution, for several reasons. 1) We do not know who to blame, and blind lynching leads to many problems, 2) even if we did know who to blame, counter attacking stands a good chance of angering others, and perpetuating the cycle, 3) even if we knew which nation to attack, and could get away with it, it is still wrong to kill people for the actions of others--we would be no better than the terrorists.
On the other hand, doing nothing is likewise unacceptable. It will send the message that these actions can be taken with impunity, and likely lead to further assaults. Failing to stand up for yourself is the best way to become a victim.
So, logically, we need to do something that is not a counter attack.
This is where brains come in. What can we do that will reduce or eliminate this kind of threat but isn't a blind reprisal? That is the question we should be turning our brains to.
-- MarkusQ
First of all, I hope and pray for the safety of all involved, and commend the rescue workers who are putting their lives on the line to save others. These people are heroes in the truest sense, and deserve our undying admiration and respect.
Watching the news, all of the stations, particularly the military correspondents (Gen. Schwarzkopf included) talked about the complete failure of our intelligence community to provide us with any warning about this attack. Reporters asking "how could such a thing have happened with no warning," "haven't we infiltrated these groups," "how can you maintain secrecy on something this widespread," etc.
In a couple of weeks, I'm going to look like a prophet for this one. I predict that somebody will mention data security, including e-mail encryption. Whether correctly or not, somebody will propose it, and encryption, already a hot topic in National Security circles, will gain focus.
I predict that within a month, Congress will have drafted, and probably passed, a National Security Act to address the threat of terrorism. In that act, I fully expect to see severe restrictions on the use of secure data systems, including encryption of any form (e-mail, PGP file encryption/encrypted file systems, even SSH and SSL), anonymity (anonymous bulletin boards, including such things as Slashdot), and relaxation of wiretapping laws. E-mail will be required to be send in plaintext, Carnivore will be restored to active duty, and put on more servers with more keywords and more aggressive monitoring. Cell phones, already ruled to be not private, will be actively monitored by the government, as will landline phones--remember, cordless phones (you know you all have them) emit RF too, and the few that have scrambling systems are easily compromised.
Also expect to see civil liberties severely curtailed, at least for a while. Meeting with friends at odd hours (odd to the rest of the world, normal to geeks)? Suspicious. Phone calls to friends in other countries, or of other nationailities (particularly Middle Eastern)? Suspicious. Use of encryption/security? Suspicious squared--after all, what do you have to hide?
My big prediction, though, is that the American Sheeple will hail this as a Good Thing, and support it wholeheartedly. The Sheeple will automatically say that anything that improves security must be a Good Idea, and will fall into line without even considering the ramifications.
Mark my words, my friends: today has been one small step for terrorism, but one giant leap for the police state.
"Make it ten--I am only a poor corrupt official."
--Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), Casablanca
I'm watching CBC television, The National. The desk reporter is superlative, and I'll be writing CBC to give accolades.
Now that there's less action on the ground, we're getting all the "experts" in as talking heads.
And the unfortunate thing is that some of them are instigating racial hatred. Well, cultural hatred, at any rate.
The same thing is beginning to happen on Slashdot: wingnuts wanting to obliterate Palestian, and even some who want to nuke the entire mid-East.
GET A CLUE!
The US can't just walk in and kill every damn Muslim and Arab. That'd be a worse atrocity than the attack on the WTC -- and the retaliation would make today's events look like a trip to Disneyland.
There must be retaliation...but it must be rational!
Use your cluesticks with impunity. Contact your news stations and let them know that they're being destructive, not constructive; join the message boards and preach cautious, considered reactions; and remain calm.
[Please also note that more people die every day or two in traffic accidents, than were killed in the attack. It's a tragedy, but not much worse than the tragedy we live with every day... it's just that we don't expect terrorist attacks.]
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Attempting to destroy New York City is beyond politics- that's war. The response will be war.
But the _causes_ of this are politics. I've seen a few brave posters from outside the US saying, "Um, you really think this is unprovoked?" and they should be listened to.
In my opinion, we are obviously heading into a world where the nation-state is no longer the focus. I've heard the terrorist organisation responsible for this is multinational and extends all over the world. That's much like the corporations we have, which do things like try and sue Indian farmers over growing rice that was native to India in the first place, which try and tie economic relief to a political system, which try and inflict our screwed-up intellectual property notions on the rest of the world- and those guys are multinational too, and often with economic coercion to rival actual countries.
I'm not sure there is a country that could have done us as much damage, in a conventional military attack, as this multinational 'terrorist' organization did in its attack.
As to the democrat/republican thing: hell, I voted Green/Progressive, and lost. I believe if Gore had won, this day would still have happened. BOTH the Dems and Reps represent a particular type of American political system- one that obviously has insane, fanatical enemies.
The fact that the enemies are fanatics making suicide attacks does not make the American political system right. The fact that we need to fight back now does not make us blameless- we just happen to be the ones expected to deliver the counterstrike. When we've done that, we damn well better take a look at whether we're really 'all that and a bag of chips' ourselves. How can we face ourselves knowing that our country wields huge force in the world, and yet half of us won't even vote for _President_ much less pay attention to what our country is doing? That's got to stop- we've got to smarten up and take responsibility.
If we want all the world to _agree_ that we aren't 'the great satan', we have got to pay closer attention to what our country, our capitalist economic system, our political system, are doing out there. This didn't come out of nowhere. We've known about the resentment for a long time, over all sorts of things and in all sorts of ways, and mostly we've just flat out ignored anyone who dared to suggest we weren't the apex of creation.
Once we've got through this next bit, we have _got_ to grow up...
If you are in NYC and looking to donate blood, I would consider physically going to the site rather than using the phone. I am not in the city; those there should decide for themselves whether the transportation system or the phone lines are clogged up worse.
Also, if you are in the NYC area, consider seeing if these Red Cross chapters or anyone providing relief efforts to see if they need unskilled volunteers--setting up tents, manning the food lines, etc. See your local place of worship, regardless of your religious persuasions--many of them may be providing relief efforts.
--The basis of all love is respect
Washington Governor Arthur B. Langlie (1900-1966) made the following statement shortly the United States declared war:
"Your state government is prepared and ready to perform every defense task which has or will be assigned to it. The State of Washington is on the frontier of a great war. We do not know what the future holds in store for us. We do not know what trials we must go through or what sacrifices we will be called upon to make. We do know what is at stake. We know that our country, our liberties and our very homes are threatened. We are individually and as a nation being called upon to make good our pledge of allegiance to flag and country" (Seattle Star).
"All I can tell the "lesser of two evils" folks is that if they keep voting for evil, they'll keep getting evil."-Lp.org
There's been a lot of posts talking about how we need to strike back, and hard. I hope everyone here realizes that's what the terrorists want.
Terrorism is not about strategy or tacticts, these acts were not battles in a war. they served no strategic or tactical purpose, the group that perpetrated these acts is not going to move in and conquer, or anything like that. The purpose of terrorism is to generate fear and political tension.
All this commotion the politicians are making is exactly what the terrorists wanted. They have succeeded in the first steps of disrupting American lifestyle. By making huge reactions we're fulfilling the terrorists goals.
What we need to do is first keep calm and tend to our victims. Second we need to take a few days (at least) to cool off and evaluate ways we can improve security and information access (why was it so hard to figure out which planes crashed? can't we keep track of where a plane is in the air?). Finally, and most difficult, we need to figure how to go back about our lives. We need to show that terrorism is an impotent tool.
The ultimate plays for Madden 2006
Religion is NOT the cause of this crime. The criminals that did this have TWISTED thier religion to pretend that this is a Holy War.
Islam, at it's heart, is about peace. The killing of innocents is abhorent to Allah (God).
It could be Muslims. It could be Christians. It could be Athiests, (White|Black|Yellow|Red|Purple) supremacists, anarchists, fascists, disgruntled pilots, almost anybody. I am not blaming any of the above groups; I am demonstrating that we just don't know.
Here's what we do know. This was a group of people (at least four, one for each aircraft) rather than one person. Those who carried out the plan (rather than any possible planners we don't see yet) were willing to die for this. They were trained for this mission (highjacking an aircraft is not an easy job today, and the fact that we have heard of no failed hijacking attempts today implies that all attempts were successful; we didn't have four successes in sixteen attempts or whatever). This implies premeditation and weeks of planning. Note that this also implies that the act was not a Columbine-type killing. The rash of Columbine events in the past few years show a lot of premeditation, but not the level of skill needed to hijack an aircraft.
Going from here to the conclusion that it must be some turban-wearing, gun-toting radical Islamic militants is a huge leap to a conclusion, and symptomatic of some deep seated hatred.
Let's not try to pin this on somebody until we get some more facts.
--The basis of all love is respect
The worst thing about violence is that it causes people who were previously non-violent to become violent. Don't let the terrorists make you one of them!
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
I personally am mildly disgusted by some of the mainstream media coverage I've seen of the aftermath. I really hate when obnoxious camera crews stick cameras in the faces of obviously traumatized survivors and ask inane questions like 'were you scared?', 'did you see anyone die?', or 'does this make you angry?'
Sheesh, I wish the media would a) let these people have some dignity, and b) quit asking so many stupid Sally Jessy-esque questions.
In "Fight Club", the plot to take out the skyscrapers seemed cool and funny. And at the end, it seemed carefree and rewarding that the monoliths of capitalism were toppling, I'm sure everyone felt good about that.
Now seeing people jumping out of windows in terror, thousands crushed burned and killed, a city closed, an infrastructure disabled, and world on high-alert, it doesn't seem so cool anymore.
I feel the full effect of desensitization in the movies, and I am disturbed that I can't find the right words to communicate with friends who are in the midst of this crisis. Where can compassion be found? I'm not blaming the media for anything, I'm just sharply aware of the before and after I'm feeling toward fightclub vs. the real thing.
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
The terrorist group that has organized this attack is probably the largest and most organized. But how big are they? they are by no means in size and sophistication as the US, and cannot fight face to face, but will have instead prepared an other extreme action.
The attacks today were prime targets for 2 reasons. Casualties, and media impact. This has severely shocked America and the rest of the world. What must be done in the future to produce such horrific results?
[disclaimer: I'm Scots, posting from Scotland]
What's scary about this is that the perpetrators did not need access to a 'greater array of weaponry'. While the US President commits huge sums of money, and breaches solemn international treaty obligations, to develop missile defence, the perpetrators were able to use fifty tons of aviation fuel that they didn't even have to pay for. Who needs a suitcase bomb, when you've got domestic aircraft?
This was a superbly well organised and executed operation on the part of the perpetrators, whoever they were, but it was also an incredibly cheap one. I should be surprised if the whole budget for the operation exceeded $100,000.
So what can a government do in response to this? It's easy (and depressing) to predict what Dubya will do - just what so many here are urging him to do. And it's easy to see exactly why it will be counter productive. If the US Government lauches its predictable 'massive strike' against the assumed perpetrators, there will inevitably be enough 'colateral damage' to radicalise a whole new population of people who don't yet hate the US that much. And they'll get together and launch more strikes like todays, because (if you are sufficiently organised, disciplined, ruthless and security conscious) strikes like todays are cheap to mount out of all proportion to the damage they cause.
The US cannot run. It cannot hide. It cannot - ever - protect itself against this sort of thing. It has thousands of miles of coastline, thousands of miles of borders, which it can never effectively monitor. Today shows that wannabe terrorists don't have to smuggle in large quantities of explosives.
For the US as for the rest of the democracies of the world, the only solution to this problem is not to be hated that much. And the only way to not be hated that much is to not act unreasonably. Which means - among other things - that the response to today's event must be strictly limited to individuals who are provably in the direct chain of command to today's event - and not thousands of civilians who just happen to live in the same town.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
> This is an act of war against the United States.
No, it's not. It's an act of terrorism. There's an enormous difference, a lesson that Vietnam taught us, and that you've apparently forgotten.
> Peace did not stop Hitler; peace did not stop the Axis Powers.
This would be a great analogy if it was accurate, but it isn't. Nations cannot operate without infrastructure, but most terrorist organizations can. You're fighting a different animal, and the weapon that's most effective against one can be entirely ineffective against the other. Think of trying to use an elephant gun (good against elephants, naturally) to kill a swarm of bees, and you'll get the idea.
> If viable proof of guilt of Osama bin Laden is brought forth,
> and the Taliban refuses to turn him over to the United States, then
> they are an accomplice to an act of war and should be dealt with
> appropriately.
What if they aren't really harboring him? Or what if they are? What would be an appropriate response to that? Invasion? Do you really think that the rest of the world will stand idly by and watch us annex Afghanistan? Do you really think that this incident warrants a war against Iran and Iraq? How about Russia? How about China? Both world wars started over annexations of territory, and in both wars nations with no initial stake were eventually pulled in (like the U.S. in WWI, which we entered because of our alliance with Britain and France). The number of Americans that would die in World War III would eclipse the deaths today within weeks.
> There must be a message sent to the world that terrorist actions
> against the United States will be met with such an incredible and
> unimaginably horrific response, than no one sane, fanatical, insane,
> or otherwise would even conceive of the idea.
Get your temper back in check and read that again. Sane people don't use terrorism, and fanaticals and the insane don't care about consequences. So, our "horrific response" will only serve to turn the collateral damage victims into more enemies.
> It is time to obliterate those who would cause this to happen
> using every means at our disposal, including the most destructive
> and horrific weapons ever developed by man. If some civilians die
> along the way, they are unfortunate casualties of war.
It is almost astonishing that your comment reflects very closely the words used by Timothy McVeigh in describing his destruction of the Murrah building. But then, it's not that astonishing after all, in that you're advocating the same sort of terrorism as he was ("if the (fill-in-the-blank) government is going to protect people who commit crimes against the (fill-in-the-blank) people, then I'm justified in killing them and anyone else who happens to get in the way, and I'll call them "unfortunate casualties of war" because it soothes my sense of justice and makes my position less abhorrent").
Until you (and many more like you) realize that fighting terrorism isn't just about brute force, we as a nation are destined to suffer from more of these attacks. Fighting terrorism is a high art form, and it can be done with a high degree of success, but it's never perfect, and it's never about simple military might. Read more about counter-terrorism, and you'll be surprised (and educated) by what you find.
Virg
My position
I will write this in first person, as the thoughts and opinions here are expressed as mine only. When I say "you", I mean you personally, when I say USA, I mean the country as it exists in legal term. I strongly differentiate between the country that you live in and you personaly.
What do I see
I don't know who commited this crime, but I don't see them completely unprovoked. The choice of the day itself (international peace day) hints, that it might not be immediately connected to recent events on UN racism conference, but rather something that can be shown as direct result of USA policy of involving in every regional conflict in last decade. Playing the role of world police and trying to establish new world order isn't something that will go down lightly with vast majority of world population. Even if this resolves to be act of internal terrorism (like OC bombing was) it means that USA is growing more and more extremist by the day. Could you imagine something like this happening in the land of truly free?
What I think about it
For the most of the world I would say that it has it's feelings mixed. I, for one, am fed over my head with all of your freedom exports as of lately and think this might be clear signal that USA is trying to do what no country is (or ever should) be allowed to do. On the other hand I do not condone this way of acting in any way justifiable. World policing is something that UN was designed to do and internal freedoms and rights are something that USA seems to be failing in, but this kind of response is never justified.
What do I mean with mixed feelings
For one, I cheer, that civilians in USA are meeting the horror and uncertainty of war. UN general secretary Gali once said for Sarajevo, there's 13 places in the world were the have it worse. This time the civilians in USA for the first time in their history get the chance to experience the fact that there is no other place on Earth where it's worse. They are targeted to change the politics of their country. They are simply used as tools to achieve the goal. And at the end of the day, they are the only ones that could change the policy of the country as a whole. But before you cry that this is wrong and this will only achieve opposite effects, let me assure you, that you are right. This way of acting will never achieve the desired result unless the enemy is overhelmingly stronger. This time the enemy has showed it has weapon of FUD readily available and is capable of using it. Do you really think that you country (assuming your from the USA) really did something else when decided to bomb Yugoslavia? Can you honestly say you didn't target your war aginst civil population in order to destabilize the government? Can you really claim that power plants, car production lines, television station offices, bridges, and other things you managed to destroy or disable aren't civilian targets? In what way does USA justification of the way that it handled that war differ from justification that someone (be it international or internal) will use in its defence?
Since I'm so smart, what do you want us to do?
Can you honestly expect that harsh retaliation (while the bodies are still warm) will solve anything expect serve to prolong the conflict? If that someone will be taken to court, then things will have to be proven; exhibits A and B will be presented; judgement will be passed and sentence will be executed. This is the way things are done. This is the way that equality works. When taken to international stage, USA will probably act as sole judge, jury and executioner. What makes you think, that it morally can. If some country just did this and you're saying it's wrong, what makes you right? Rule of the mob?
And what would I do?
If I would be you (but I'm obviously not), I wouldn't be thinking about revenge (revenge for what exactly?), but I would rather be thinking abut helping those in need. I would be thinking about saying a pray for those dead. I would be thinking about correct course of action after taking care of this. If I would be president of USA, I wouldn't be talking about hunting down the enemy, I would be talking about helping those in need, I would be talking about rebuilding and healing. If I would have the power he has, I wouldn't want to help the thirst for blood, I would want to bring out the good in all the people. Only after that I would be looking to bring justice to whoever did this. Bring justice, not hunt down mind you. Headhunts and public lynch never helped anyone, but correctly executing the justice deterred other from getting help in commiting crimes.
And your point is?
Don't walk around, saying how good/bad this thing is, but the next time elections are around go to the voting booth and tell the country how do you want it to run the business. This will actualy mean that you will alter your behaviour based on some terrorist action, but think about the alternatives. Do you want to live in real FUD state (as in state of mind) or do you want to influence the politics to minimize the chances of this occuring again. The answer is yours. But bottom line is whether you would rather use this as an excuse to do something abou your whole society, or use this as the point of justifying more violence.
Don't go down the spiral of violence. Don't retaliate. Don't assume.
Act with thought. Seek international involvement. Check and present all the facts. Take the road of justice.
If you want to know why I put this in bold, it simply because USA haven't shown much it lately. Sometimes the biggest bully on the block just needs to take the cold shower and admit that fists don't solve everything.
To boldly invent more hot water.
To promise retaliation is not hubris, it's apporpriate.
no, its childish and immature - to retaliate, to lash out wildly is idiotic.
You make the mistake of assuming that people such as these terrorists are willing to come to the negotiation table. They are not.
The fact that they have reached a point that hijacking planes and crashing them into highly-populated office buildings seems like a good idea. Do you think they have any common ground with their targets? Do you think their greivances are so large that this kind of action can be justified?
Dancin Santa
I have been reading through the comments on this subject. I do not claim to have read them all.
It seems that many people, especially those outside the US, are susggesting that this attack was some sort of retaliation for crimes the US commits against the world. I am American. I am not always proud of everything the US does. It is stupidity to say that any country had this coming.
Comments about America inflicting itself can only be taken seriously to a point. Yes, many American companies are "invading" other countries. But the people there buy it. No one is forced to buy food at McDonalds or drink Coca-Cola. The same thing happens in the US. Businesses I previously patroned are dissappearing and being replaced by things like Starbucks and Blockbuster. I say the same thing applies here as anywhere else. If you don't like a business, don't give it your money. If you don't like Hollywood being "imposed" on your country, don't see any Hollywood films. Encourage others to do the same. In the end, the people get what they want. If they want Americanization, it will certainly find them. It is easier to blame America than it is to blame the people who let our evil nation "invade" yours.
I would also like to point out that every world power has been viewed negatively by the less powerfull. Before America it was the European Powers. It is always easy to tell America what to do when you only have to consider the consequences outside of America. If you are not American, you will not understand how the consequences will affect us.
you probably shouldn't have read this.
You make a very good point. Talk to someone Islamic. I am not Islamic, but a rather identify with the type of 'Reformed' Christianity espoused as websites like Antithesis.com and the Credenda Agenda.
That said, I know enough to know that it is ONLY the most radical and a minority of Islamics who preach violence. Most, if not all, condemn such CSCB terrorist acts. It would be victory for the chicken-shit-coward-bastard (CSCB)-terrorists if they could take these sad events and make us hate our Islamic neihbor.
While we may disagree about God and country, I would prefer to debate our differences over some cold beer and hummus, as opposed to hot lead and fire.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Okay, So it's probably safe to assume that a good amount of people in the WTC towers were wealthy investment banker-ish types. Many of these guys were probably the only source of income their families had (since they would probably make enough that their wives didn't have to work). They probably had 1 million+ dollar houses mortgaged, nice cars, etc. So it would probably be safe to assume that their life insurance policies were for several million dollars. Of course, we can't discount that there were also plenty of secretaries/sys admins/janitorial staff/deli proprietors etc. in thee towers as well. Most of them also probably had life insurance policies.
And of course we have the World Trade Center towers themselves, who are probably insured for billions.
Well, watching CNN and various other news channels, I keep seeing that many politicians and journalists are calling this "an act of war"
Folks, what is the one thing that almost no life or property insurance policies cover? You guessed it: WAR!
We're going to have possibly tens of thousands of families who depended upon a primary wage-earner to survive. These families could potentially be told by insurance companies, "Sorry, but we don't have to provide coverage for your loved ones. It was war...".
Additionally, we will have whatever group of investors counts on rental income from the WTC go completely to pot, because their property insurance on the buildings will echo the same sentiment.
As far as I'm concerned, this isn't an act of war, it's an act of terrorism. The "war" clause in insurance policies is there as a last resort... it's meant to protect the insurance companies if half the major cities in the US get nuked to the ground. But I have no doubt that many of these companies will try to use this clause to their advantage.
I'm going to be sending a letter to my Senators and Representatives in a few days (obviously they have more important things on their minds right now) urging them to pass a temporary law that prevents insurance companies from pulling these sorts of sh> igans. I urge everyone else to do the same.
Like many of you, I watched todays unfolding events with horror, disbelief, anger and sadness. And, there will be those who are jumping up and down in jubilation that the Great Satan has been hit.
But, let's look at this for what it is, pure cowardise designed to strike terror in the hearts of people who have done no harm to anyone. The dead and wounded are people who were going to work, visiting relatives, or going home. They are people, much like those who have experienced terror at the hands of fanatics simply for living in a land whose government the fanatics deplore. There is no rational for the killing of innocent people. Anyone who thinks otherwise are clearly not of sound mind or thinking in a manner that western civilization can not comprehend.
The United States takes a lot of blame for some of the stances it takes on many issues. The same United States provided food, shelter, medicine and other humanitarian assistance to many nations that are incapable of doing so themselves during a disaster or national emergency. The United States provides assistance to nations who fall prey to aggression from outside nations such as the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq or the killing of the Kurds by Iraq. They do so because of treaties, agreements, national interest or purely on moral grounds.
Where would these people be if the United States and other nations stood idly by and did absolutely nothing? What would happen if the United States simple turned a blind eye to the plights of millions because of a few ignorant or fanatical people?
I do not know who is responsible for this attrocity. And, I strongly feel that once the identity of the those response are discovered, that no expense be spared until they are either brought to justice of meet their maker. But, I also implore that we don't take to the streets and exact revenge on anyone simple because of their heritage. We need to rise above the feelings of anger and hate.
Let's find out who is truly responsible for this attack and then make it clear, by our very strong actions, that terrorism will not be tolerated. Let those governments and individuals that support terrorism know that we have had enough and we will exercise our might to erratic them at all costs.
But, for now, let's pray for those who perished and their families. Tomorrow, we fight back against those that did this to us. Then, it will be time to grieve and remember so that this does not happen again.
Just out of curiosity, since you seem to be so in favor of appeasing these criminals. If you walked into your house and watched your wife being raped, and your daughter was apparently next, would you consider it "childish and immature" to retaliate against them to keep them from further damaging your loved ones?
Or would you walk up to them and try to "negotiate" with them? Plead with them to just leave you alone?
Here's a gun. Would you just watch them as they began on your daughter?
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
This is not right. ALL radars show bad values near the radar station. This is not a dust cloud at all. (Unless you believe that there's also a huge dust cloud around, say, Nashville or Houston as well.)
The cloud wouldn't extend that far. However, papers from the blast were seen miles away, and a reporter ten blocks from the explosions said he could taste the dust in the air.
This is not state-based terrorism. This is a small group of fanatics. Your stupid, stupid tactic would make it a war.
Terrorism is cyclical, not a three step process. You are attacked, you get angry, you retaliate. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
Look at Ireland, the Middle East, etc. Do you want our grandchildren to still be fighting the same damn "war"?
We wait. We continue to work. We find the black boxes, the voice recorders, we investigate. Those that did it are on the run. They are in hiding, and think we don't know where they are. Let they sweat a little. When we have the evidence, when the world knows, then we act. Maybe not even violently - put them in front of the same court as Millosevich, make them stand trial.
Above all, we show that we are rational humans, and not dogs that bite because we were bit.
Perhaps the fire-supression system was inadequate in many respects. That said, how can you seriously blame the scale of this catastrophe on the fire-supression system? Who in their right mind would equip an office building with a fire-suppression system that could extinguish a fire caused by enough jet fuel to take a 767 across the continent?! I think that even if it were up to a higher standard, it would have been absurd for the designing engineers to say, "hey, let's put in a sprinkler system that could extinguish a fire caused by a 767 slamming into the building with a near-full load of fuel!"
--Ford Prefect
This is the worst attack on America. Ever. The destruction at Pearl Harbor can only begin to compare with the carnage that has taken place in America today. September 11, 2001 is a day that will live on in infamy. It is an unprovoked attack on American soil.
For those who don't seek vengeance, I can only say that you are likely not living in America. There will be a reckoning. Whoever did this, and it's looking like Bin Ladin, will be found an eradicated. Whoever is harboring them will be eradicated. Whoever defends them will be eradicated. War is now inevitable.
Good may eventually come of it, as good did eventually come from Pearl Harbor and WWII. But for the time being, we will be mobilizing, preparing for war. We were shocked. Now we are angry.
And anyone who says that we're going to war because "Bush is crzy enough to start one" as I've heard people say (though haven't looked closely on the forum here) is dead wrong. We will be going because it's the right thing to do. We need, firstly, to show the world that we will not be shaken by this, and to show the world what happens when you fsck with the USA. Any potential president, Bush, Gore, Nader, Bud Brown, Clinton, anyone would be looking for a perpetrator right now with the intent to kill. We can see this.
From a purely political standpoint, the nation is calling for vengeance. Any preisdent who sought re-election for himself or anyone in his party would commit political suicide otherwise.
This is edited slightly for content, mostly for length:
"The United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. The United States was at Peace with the world. We have been looking towards the maintenacne of world peace. This attack was deliberately planned days or even weeks ago. The attack on our cities has caused damage to civilians and economic centers. Very many America lives have been lost.
The facts, so far, today speak for themselves. The American people have already formed their opinions, and well undertstand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation. The commander in chief has directed our forces in our defense. Always, will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us.
No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the America people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory. We will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but we will make certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us again. We will gain the inevitable triumph, so help us God.
This was an unprovoked and dastardly attack on the united states."
Franklin D. Roosevelt, December 8, 1941
December 7, 1941. A day that has lived on in infamy. September 11, 2001 will live on in infamy now as well.
Never again. Never.
You still think like somebody who fears to die. They don't. They *want* to die for what they believe in.
The way you deal with terrorist soldiers is catch them, pry their kneecaps off with screwdrivers, stab them repeatedly, then leave them to die like they deserve to.
Thereby becoming a less-free society, which is exactly their goal. When the police begin to violate the laws, and everybody has less freedom, the terrorists have won.
And in the process, you've made some new martyrs for their cause. Do you really think death frightens people who are willing to kamikaze the WTC? Irrelevancy frightens them. Dying of old age in prison frightens them. Being killed by infidels makes them happy.