Slashdot Mirror
Mafiaboy Gets His Wrist Slapped
An anonymous reader writes: "Mafiaboy, the Canadian 'hacker' that did the DOS on Ebay, Amazon, Excite, CNN, etc. has gotten 8 months in a youth detention centre and 1 year probation. Prosecuters think this will be a message to 'hackers' that do this kind of thing. I say the message should be to the scriptkiddies who obviously don't know how to cover their tracks, to at least learn to do so before they download malicious software." The other message is that even if you get caught, your sentence will be ridiculously easy.
Seems to me 8 months in juvenile detention is not 'getting his wrist slapped'. At 17, 8 months is an eternity. This will n ot be nice for him.
Michael
---
BDOS ERR ON A:>
8 months for a scrawny nerd in a juvenile detention center? He's going to get the shit kicked out of him regularly, I would surmise. That's a pretty hard sentence for running some other idiot's code.
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
At least, this Mafiaboy has gotten a "bad boy!" message...
"Trust me - I know what I'm doing."
- Sledge Hammer
I don't know what you think is easy about it. I spent time in a youth detention center and now as an adult every body I know that spends time in jail for DUI or otherwise tells me they would rather be in an adult prison than a youth detention center. In jail you get a TV, a matress some luxuries. In a youth center you get a thin matress resting on a concrete slab and that's it. No bathroom in your cell, no TV nothing.
Also consider he will be surrounded by criminals who will likely kick the shit out of him regularly for being a "geek".
There is nothing easy about this. Adults have rights, youths do not as a matter of law. It's a kangaroo court system. They sentenced him to 8 months but that could eaily turn into 8 years as he is likely to make fuck ups in there and will have to defend himself against the others which will make his time harder and longer.
I feel sorry for him. Most people who go to a youth detention center often times become criminals as adults.
I don;t know the details, he may very well deserve this, but I honestly from a first hand perspective don't think anyone deserves what the youth detention centers dish out.
Keep in mind Canadian Law is goverened by the Young Offenders Act.
Maximum Sentence for ANYTHING (mass murder, etc) is three years.
By the standards of that act, he was punished very hard.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
I know, they dont even bring in any profits in the first place.In fact, by being offline for half a day, I think Mafiaboy saved them millions if anything. The combined quarterly revenues of those companys doesnt even equal that figure.
Jeff Knox
What kind of sentence do you want? Will you not be satisfied until his life is ruined?
8 months is a long time. Think of all you have done in the last 8 months, since January, and imagine being in a youth detention center instead.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
To incarcirate a hacker is stupid
I disagree. It sends a message that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated.
I personally think all hackers should only be on probation (WITH computer access)
What? That's like putting a drunk driver on probation with access to a to some liquor and a car. Denying a convicted hacker computer access is an appropriate form of punishment. It's like denying a child television when they disobey.
If Mafiaboy was a real smart computer nerd, he would have known that his actions were wrong and not did what he did.
"Mafiaboy, [...] has gotten 8 months in a youth detention centre and 1 year probation. [...] The [other] message is that even if you get caught, your sentence will be ridiculously easy. "
That seems fair to me, and in line with society's expectations. Was the crime so heinous that he needed to be tried as an adult? No. Was the crime so heinous that he needed a sentance as long as those handed down to rapists and murders? No. Please don't forgot, other countries aren't as keen as Americans seem to be when it comes to locking people up, and for how long they get locked away, e.g. murder in Britain might get you 20 years, but in the US life or even execution.
I spent 4 months in the San Jose Juvi. I was not a total geek, but I sure as hell was not a gang-banger... which is exactly what everyone else was in there. I only got into one fight, but fights are the least of your worries. Try to imagine what it's like to be surrounded by murderers and rapists all day long. I will assume that he is relatively bright, and will have to deal with being in a confined space with people who are not only ignorant and poorly educated, but also very intolerant of educated-types.
4 months was way too long for me, 8 months would be an eternity. Granted... he will likely not have to deal with the sort of racism I faced (I was 1 of 4 white people, our of 600) in San Jose, but he is definetly not getting off easy.
I just wanted to point out that By canadian Juvenile law, the 8 month sentence plus probation the kid got is quite severe! And let's not forget that Yahoo, eBay and company never even bothered to try and prove during the trial that they suffered any losses at all!! I guess they figured out they wouldn't get any of their money back... What's a judge to do? Give 5 years when nobody's really complaining??
Looking back to stories and posts about these types of offenders leads me to believe there is a serious double standard around here.
Think back and you'll remember everyone complaining that Kevin Mitnick received too harsh a sentence for his hacking/cracking actitivies. I even recall some posters mentioning that a rape/murder gets less time than Kevin's sentence. That was for an adult - maybe even the adult who is considered the *definitive* hacker's hacker, cracker's cracker and such; but that sentence was perceived as totally out of line.
Now we get this teen ager who is pretty much the poster child definition for the term "script kiddie" and a sentence of 8-9 months in juvie is too light a sentence..
Seems to me that the sentence should fit the crime. What he did is really the equivalent of spray painting the front of the local wal-mart - vandalism for sure but hardly a capital crime; he got a reasonable sentence.
h3110 l4mUrz,
1 4m a 15 yr 0ld h4X0r/cr4ckX0r, 4nd i th3nk th4t t3h s3nt1nce r1lly SUXX0RZ!!! i 4m more s/\/\a4tur then 4ll j00 0lde phart PUNKX0r S1S-4DMINZ c0mbinde!#% JOO PH33R MY 5K33LZ, i w1ll p1ngn00k joo and fr4ggX0r jur ARSE in c0uNtArStRiEk!!! i am 1337.. 4LL J00R B4S3 R B3L0NGZ 2 US!!!!!
---===[[[{{{N33T-0 31337-0}}}]]]===--- [xRc]
PHR33 MAPHIAB0Y!!!!!
/s
/save
/exit
/qut
/quit
h0w do i sa3v? th3si sint pien!!$ GRR!! greppin tarball
What does the outside world think of slashdot when one day everyone is yelling that Dmitry Sklyarov should be set free even though he violated the DMCA and created and sold illegal software. Then the next day a 17 year old script kiddy who DOS attacked a few sites and got a punishment of 8 months in a detention center, and everyone is angry that his punishment isn't enough? How could the common person get any understanding what slashdot's ideology is?
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
Lets look at the figures of damage supposedly caused by Mafiaboy and see if he deserves a rewards, not a prison sentance. The estimated figure of damage was 1.3Billion combined from eBay, Yahoo, and Amazon. Lets first look at revenue and losses of these companies. They dont make any profit, which is what will be my point. This information has been culled from finance.yahoo.com (Interesting how yhoo's profile on finance.yahoo.com is more flavorly and flattering then any other stocks).
Yahoo (per http://biz.yahoo.com/p/y/yhoo.html )
"For the six months ended 6/30/01, revenues decreased 28% to $362.4 million.
"Net loss totaled $60 million vs. an income of $120.9 million."
Ok. So in the first six months of this year they only had revenue of 362.4 million, and had a Net Loss of 60 million. Devide 60 million by (365/2/2, or 91.25, a figure for a half a day of revenue) and you get $657,534 dollars of Losses they did not have because their site was down. So in this case Yahoo loss 3.97 million in revenues, which would of resulted in $657,534 of losses. So Mafiaboy saved Yahoo $657,534 in all reality.
eBay (per http://biz.yahoo.com/p/e/ebay.html )
"For the six months ended 6/30/01, revenues rose 82% to $335 million."
"Net income totaled $45.7 million, up from $9.2 million."
Ok. So eBay is making a profit. So revenue losses in ebays case is very similar to yahoo at $3.67 million. And actually profit losses are $500,822. So their is real loss associated with his attack. $500,822 dollars in eBay's case (if at all, because in reality, the auctions still went on, and eBay still collected all their fees).
Amazon.com (per http://biz.yahoo.com/p/a/amzn.html )
"For the the six months ended 6/30/01, revenues increased 19% to $1.37 billion"
"Net loss before acct. change fell 37% to $392 million."
Amazon has a significantly higher revenue then eBay and Yahoo as we see. So revenue loss for that half day would be 15million. Net loss Amazon.com was saved from that 15 million, $4.3million.
Summary
Adding up the total half day losses of revenue for all the companies equals $22.64 million in loss revenue. Of that $4.96 million would of been losses, and only $500,822 thousand would be profit. So the net amount of money it could be considered that Mafiaboy saved these three companies is 4.45million dollars. If you add up the half year revenues of these companies it was only around 2 billion. And thats for HALF A YEAR. Amazon.com accounting for most of that. No way Mafiaboy caused 1.3 billion in damage, not matter how you look at it. I know their is more then revenue, such as employees over time and whatnot. But still looking at the figures 23 million of damage at best (because no one can say these companies actually ended up loosing sales, and in eBays case, it probably did not have much of a effect if any), or looking at it from another viewpoint, you could say Mafiaboy saved these companies over 4 million dollars.
PS. Dont take this as an approval of Mafiaboys actions. What he did was wrong, no matter what way you look at it.
Jeff Knox
Well, perhaps while attending school there, he will learn to spell correctly and to write grammatical sentences. These skills will undoubtedly be beneficial to him when he enters the job market. You can probably testify to that.
mp
"The secret to strong security: less reliance on secrets." -- Whitfield Diffie
Exactly what losses can a company claim when they are victim of a DOS attack? Damaged hardware? No. Theft of goods? No. The only "loss" one of these companies had is potential income for that short period of time. And even that is completely subjective. Realistically, if you were going to buy a book from Amazon and you couldn't get to their web site, chances are you'd just try again in a few hours. The same goes for all the other web sites - especially the portals. Would you change your home page if the site was down for a couple hours?
Also, consider that this was a 16 year old boy. For Christ's sake, do you remember how stupid you were when you were 16? How much time do you think a kid should serve for a foolish mistake that didn't really harm anyone?
Before judging on a sentence on a juvenile in the province of Quebec, you need a crash course on the approach that is prevalent here with kids, and works very well.
- Kids are NOT sent to jail. Whatever they commited. Why? Because jail is not where you learn about life as an adult.
- Juvenile centers are not vacation centers. My mother has been working in one for over 25 years, and the kids are severly watched, and most definitely not free to do what they want. They are locked in their rooms at night, and whenever they cause any kind of trouble. As long as they behave, they get to interact with other kids there, and they are forced to go to school.
Most of Canada wants tougher laws towards the kids, but Quebec's system has the lowest rate of kids being sentenced that commit other crimes when they grow up. By any means, 8 months is not a light sentence, and the kid will have that time to think about what he did, and perhaps find something else he is good at, instead of thinking how he will make society pay for his incarceration when he gets out of jail."I remember Y1K, every abacus had to get another bead"
Originally he was sentenced to correct Taco's grammar and spelling for a year, but it was deemed cruel & unusual punishment...
Slap on the wrist? Exactly how do you call this a 'slap on the wrist'?
Mafiaboy is a seventeen year old - a teenager, probably misplaced socially - who decided to see what he could do with his computer. What you deride as 'script kiddieism' is nothing more than curiosity travelling its logical path. The only reasons he didn't bury his nose in *nix programming like you probably did is because one, he's young, and two, it's boring.
This isn't to say he's any sort of innocent. Obviously he has some anger issues or something to work out, and these should be dealt with. Eight months in juvey is going to be a dragging hell for him as it is, and probably won't resolve any of his social aberrancy. It's not just harsh, it's ineffective.
What would you advise as an alternative to this 'slap on the wrist'? Throw him in prison and let him rot? I have to say, then, that you are one hard motherfucker. His crimes were economic, nonviolent, and those of youth: more annoyances than anything, and ones that show us that . It would immoral to steal his life to pay for what it can't.
Ideally, he should simply be seperated from technology and forced to work excessively in the community. Make him go out and meet people. Make him help people. This isn't an evil, violent person. Locking him in with his fellow misanthropes is going to help no one.
. . . . . . . [awg] http://acidwriting.org
As much as a surprise as this might be, there is no unifying Slashdot ideology. Being as how we're all capable of free thought, some people believe things that others don't.
I can't believe that I've had to state something so blindingly obvious.
-Waldo
certainly it's at a YDC and not at a federal, pound-you-in-the-ass penitentiary, but still, eight months.
that's a full year of school you'd have to miss, and take again with kids 2 years younger than you. and a year after _that_ you still wouldn't be able to leave the state or be out after curfew.
imagine you're back in high school, and remember the pain of persecution and social awkwardness of being a geek. add to that the weekly visits to your parole officer, and think that's not at least a little trying for a kid who, essentially, downloaded some software and ran it.
personally, i think it's light in comparison to the damage and loss of commerce in dollar amounts floating around from the "Attack" - and i hope his parole terms include not being able to use the Internet unsupervised - but considering the age of the of the offender with no priors (i presume) this isn't "ridiculously easy" or a wristslap. a wristslap would be a fine (which his parents have to pay) and maybe parole.
being confined to a cell, your movements and actions constantly under scrutiny for eight months, essentially without any liberties, is an appropriate sentence for someone who intentionally committed a severe act of vandalism. the travesty would be giving the same sentence, or less, to people who maim or kill while drunk behind the wheel of a car, which happens every day in the courts.
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
Maybe by American standards it is. But by Canadian laws in general, and Quebec's system in particular, it seems appropriate. The funny idea that people have around here is that kids that commit crimes are not yet beyond being brought back on the right track. The juvenile centers here are very supervised, but not by armed guards. The kids are followed by psychologists and educators, forced to go to school and get deprived of some of the few things they have when they get too bad results.
You may find it funny, but alot of the kids that get put through this find it very hard, and think twice about it. What's more, they can't just hide in their corner forever, they have to open up sooner or later. And not surprisingly to me, alot end up very good citizens afterwards.
So basically, different countries, different approaches. And I kinda like ours.
"I remember Y1K, every abacus had to get another bead"
on the other hand, hasn't he been in detention for about 1.5 years?
- passion
What you have to understand is this: you cannot compare this sentencing to the kind of sentencing he could have received had he been tried in the US or even in Ontario. Mafiaboy was not judged on US soil, by the US judicial system and under US laws.
If you compare sentencing in the US with sentencing in other countries of the industrialized occident, the US in no way comes out as an average nation. Comparatively speaking, the US judicial system is extremely harsh. Prison sentences are much more common and much, much longer. Another example of this harshness is the death penalty, which is much more widely used in (parts of) the US than in the rest of the industrialized occident.
Mafiaboy was judged and sentenced in Quebec, Canada. The Quebec judicial system operates on Canadian federal laws, but with largely distinct underlying values and interpretations. Whereas what is usually called "English Canada" generally wants to move towards a harsher, US-style judicial system, Quebec gererally wants to go towards prevention, leniency, and re-integration. This is especially true for young offenders. Young offenders in Quebec are not sentenced to five-year prison terms, even for violent crimes. Their anonymity is secured and they are sent to youth centers.
Interestingly, it seems that the efficiency argument is on the side of lenient Quebec in this case. Quebec has a very good track record at maintaining low crime and violence rates amoungst youngsters. Prevention and re-integration obviously fails in many cases (as we all know), but apparently works "often enough" or "well enough" to give Quebec very good results.
(My personal opinion? All other things being equal, I prefer shorter sentences. I will favor any solution which just works, but luckily, it seems that the one naturally prefer does precisely work. Yet if you must know, I am definitely for a "dangerous offender" clause which keeps total, dangerous lunatics off the streets for good.)
So whoever was expecting a 15-year prison sentence (or anything vaguely similar) is not very well-informed. That is of course understandable: Quebec and Canada are not very well known outside or... Quebec and Canada. Some would even say respectively. But the amount of surprise apparent here just goes to show how much many US citizens believe "their way" to be "the standard way."
And please remember: this is a DDOS attack; not a mass rape, not a murder, not a bloody beating. And if you stop thinking about magical, crime-banishing 25-year prison sentences for just a second, you might realize that 8 months in a youth detention actually is no small deal for a 17-year-old. I rather enjoyed beeing free during my teenage years.
That's not enough of a translation yet. Here is the final version:
Greetings to those for whom I hold some degree of low regard.
I am a young computing/networking enthusiast who is disappointed with the punishment assigned to a fellow enthusiast. I have come into knowledge that is not universal; and because I have few other avenues through which I can gather respect, I intend to use this knowledge to randomly punish others. To accomplish this, I intend to display my knowledge through both gaming and non-gaming-oriented activities. I am also assigning myself a title to indicate my status. My long-term goals include assuming ownership of all facilities where personnel and equipment are centrally gathered.
I shall now attempt to determine the correct usage of the program with which I am composing this message.
While I will refrain from commenting on this individual in this case, it must be said that we in a free society need to always be on our guard as to what the laws are, why they are, and how they are being carried out.
Why can a man in Virginia be throw in jail for going down on his wife in the privacy of their bedroom?
Why does crack cocaine have harder sentences than powder?
Why do blacks make up 15% of the US drug using population but 36% of the drug arrests?
Why can consenting adults be jailed for what they do behind closed doors? [ prostitution, assisted suicide, drug use, sodomy ]
Why, when people break the law, do we enroll them institutions that teach them how to harder criminals and then let them back into society?
Why do we say we are rehabilitating criminals when we only punish them?
The Price of Liberty is Eternal Vigilance.
Sheep like you are the reason things are the way they are.
America is so caught up in this "Punish them so they realize how dumb it was" phase. What they don't really realize is what putting someone away for 10 years (especially at the age mafiaboy is) can do to a person. Release a 25 year old who has been in jail for the past ten years, and they have no shot at a normal life. While some people say "Good, what he deserves," I honestly doubt if he has any brains he'll try something like this again.
Sure, the kid got a rise out of slowing the internet for a few days, but we all did stupid stuff when we were 15. Hell, some of my friends went out and threw rocks at cars off an overpass on the freeway. Sure, we realize how utterly dangerous this was now, but it seemed like something fun and rebellious in 8th grade. It's hardly a reason to take the rest of someone's life away. This kid is going to have a hard enough time getting a decent job or even into college with this on his record.
The point of prison is to pusnish, but I doubt any of you know how hard even eight months in a controlled environment like juvenile detention is. This is pretty harsh, I have a friend who were caught for posession of a rather large quantity of marijuana and only got 3 months probation because he was 16 and federal drug laws didn't apply (had he been 2 years older, the min. sentence is 25 years, which is absurd for having some ganja) The moral of this post? We as a country are so hell-bent on the punishment of criminals (I'm mainly talking about the non-violent ones) that we fail to see the punishment does more harm to society than the crime itself. I doubt many of you can fathom what jail is like. Even a year in jail is not something you forget easily.