Supreme Court Rejects Microsoft Appeal

Geoff writes "I assume you've gotten a few zillion of these already, but since I don't see it on the front page yet, the Supreme Court has rejected Microsoft's appeal of the antitrust verdict." It should be noted that this was expected.

Comments

No big deal...

[Quasar1999]

What? The Government actually works?? I love the legal system...

But wait, what does this really mean? Microsoft will continue on its merry way... Whats the punishment? Or are we still arguing over what the charges are...???

In other news....

[Gazelem]

the Supreme Court also ruled that Satan is evil.

Of course they rejected it. Thank you very much Chief Justice Obvious!

Guess MS has no choice but to appeal....

[mickeyreznor]

to the LEGION OF DOOM!

Lex Luthur has been said to be quite sympathic of the corporation's plight.

Re:Guess MS has no choice but to appeal....

[NecroPuppy]

Dunno...

Lex already had his computers infested by one evil pseudo-intelligence, that is, Braniac.

Why would he want another?

Good news... I guess

[huh69]

This seems like good news, but what, if anything, does this mean to the current findings of anti-competitive practices and what penalties will they be forced (if any) to pay. Seems to me that the jucicial system is willing to say that M$ is bad, but what are they doing to try and rectify the situation. Will they:

1) Force M$ to open the Windows source, 2) Force M$ to had the source to a couple of other companies to try and force competition with a set group of compatibility standards, 3) Change their minds and break the company up into an OS company and an application company, 4) Provide yet another solution, 5) Slap them on the wrist and tell them "Don't do this anymore"

M$ has so much history regarding their threat to competition, that the time has come to stop talking and start actually doing something to them. Maybe we need someone like Milo (Antitrust) to come along and bring them down... so to speak :-).

Re:Good news... I guess

[cavemanf16]

Breaking them up won't help - that will just create a Baby Bell situation where a couple (or lots) of MS Monopoly companies exist in each of their respective markets. What they need to do is enforce stiff monetary penalties (they are one of the richest companies on the planet) payable to the companies they screwed over (at least the ones named in the antitrust case). That would help force them to crank the price of WinXP (and their licensing schemes) to even more ridiculous price levels, thereby forcing companies to switch to a better, and cheaper OS.

The M$ problem goes away. SNAFU once again. ;)

Re:Good news... I guess

[mark_lybarger]

this has been said again and again. ms source is already open to anyone with a large checkbook. you can buy the source from them (although i'm sure there's a STRICT nda to sigh), and then they'll give you NO support for it (you've got the sources right). should a company be required to release openly all it's source code? i would think no more than a digital cable company who has a monopoly in a certain area should release the compression algoithms used for their channels. shouldn't anyone be able to build a box to decode those digital signals?

how about as an alternative, impose a LARGE fine which will go to competitors (that's who was ultimately hurt here right?), as well as strict rules that they can't do the anti-competitive practices (allow oem's to install other browsers customize os, etc).

Re:Good news... I guess

[mimbleton]

That is brilliant, pumpkin.

We need what amounts to forced action to make companies switch to "cheaper and better OS"
Is it really that better or cheaper when you have to force people into using it ?

Re:Good news... I guess

[cavemanf16]

Well, railroads died because there was better technology out there (personal automobiles) and because of antitrust suits IIRC, and the printing press took out the authoritarian control of the Catholic church and elitist monarchs and gave the power of understanding to the masses, so I don't see why this should be different.

Re:Good news... I guess

[MrAl]

Railroads died? Funny, but being in the business it looks to me like they're doing pretty well.

Re:Good news... I guess

[4of12]

What they need to do is enforce stiff monetary penalties (they are one of the richest companies on the planet) payable to the companies they screwed over (at least the ones named in the antitrust case). That would help force them to crank the price of WinXP (and their licensing schemes) to even more ridiculous price levels, thereby forcing companies to switch to a better, and cheaper OS.

Well, yes.

IIRC, MS has something on the order of $3e10 cash reserves, enough to make it the envy of every company that has sought a good credit rating from Standard & Poors.

What that means, though, is that the monetary penalties would have to be stiff to an almost unprecedented degree. Something on the order of the tobacco company settlements, to give you some idea of just how stiff.

They have enough of a market lock and cash reserves that it would take an extremely stiff penalty before they would raise the price of XP even more than they already have.

Besides, am I mistaken, or are most corporate IT departments facing unprecedented increases in costs for licenses from MS and, for all practical purposes, looking to take those lumps? Sure Linux exists, but to their eyes not so much as an alternative that they would really take but more as a bargaining chip when they sit down with MS to negotiate how much they have to pay for Enterprise License Agreements.

If I were a PC hardware manufacturer, especially in the current slump, I'd be pretty peeved that MS was about to swallow an even bigger piece of the pie from corporate IT budgets and leave the crumbs for hardware upgrades.

No, I think the only resolution is to pry open the clo$ed interfaces that have been abused. All Office formats (including rendering rules), win16 APIs, win32 APIs, HALs in NT need to be shown the light of day, free for anyone to implement and free for anyone to interface into without the need for purchasing any agreements or worrying that the interface will subtly break their app.

Let everyone innovate, and not just the company that happens to own the standards.

Let MS introduce .NET, but give them, or anyone else, a drastically curtailed time window of monopoly power on it. Once it is running an installed on 80% of computers or, say, 17 months, force it open also as a standard.

Let innovation be in implementations, with less emphasis upon the supposedly "new". Let's not accept the abuse of the term "innovation" as an excuse to lock down new technology indefinitely and to force payment for the right to use that technology long after it's innovative value has been established.

The MS of old had a lot more incentive to innovate (improve their product) when there viable competitors breathing down their necks. That's no longer the case and hasn't been for many years.

Actually, no court remedy would be necessary if a very large customer base, such as federal, state and local governments, mandated that all of their computing be done with precisely documented open interfaces. MS could choose to retain business from those clients if they were to open up, or else face the prospect of all those customers migrating to alternative platforms and applications based upon open standards. Such a move would seem logical, given how much ostensibly public business is locked up in proprietary .doc formats already. Imagine if the U.S. Constitution were only viewable from Word!

Not like it matters...

[RareHeintz]

Now that the DOJ has been ordered to back off, I can't see that the Supreme Court appeal is anything but a pro forma attempt to keep from having to negotiate which wrist gets slapped. Painful though it is to say, although I'd normally rejoice at Microsoft's misfortune, this barely even rates as news.

Microsoft: Who do you want to sell your domestic policy to today?

OK,
- B

Re:Not like it matters...

[NecroPuppy]

Remember, just because the DoJ has backed off, doesn't mean that the states can't seek independant remedies.

If they push hard enough, they might be able to impose their view of what punishment should be.

Re:Not like it matters...

[mwa]

Actually, now that they are absolutely decreed a monopoly, with no further opportunity for appeal, it opens the door wide open for civil suits by any company that their illegal behavior harmed financially.

Re:Not like it matters...

[Malcontent]

Who has the resources to sue MS and win and collect? Nobody that's who. Even if you won in the early going MS can drag the case on till you are dead or broke whichever comes first.

But it's not over

[iritant]

This ruling means most of Judge Jackson's findings of facts are upheld. It means that Microsoft broke the law. And it means that Bill Gates and the people in Seattle were, quite simply wrong.

But it doesn't mean a thing in terms of Microsoft's behavior, right now. Here comes Windows XP, clearly with Microsoft having set their sites on Real, Inc. Now we'll have to see what sort of a deal Bill can buy from the Bush administration.

Quite frankly I'm surprised that the Bush administration is arguing for oversight, rather than breakup. Fox watching the chickens? I hope not.

Re:But it's not over

[cpt kangarooski]

Perfectly good company? We're talking about MS here, you know. They've been found in court to be anything but a perfectly good company.

Re:But it's not over

[iritant]

> Why break up perfectly good company ?
> Don't we have enough problems already ?

I'm not an expert on law enforcement or corporate structure. However, I do believe in a free and fair market. I would rather have capitalism rule and people demonstrate the full extent of their creativity than to have to artificially limit that creativity because a company has grown too large. As it stands every large company that interacts with Microsoft's development process has got to be questioning how those interactions will be scrutinized by the government.

Here's another thought: in each case where a company's been broken up because they've gotten too big, the baby companies have gone on to be hugely successful for their stock holders. This was the case with Standard Oil, AT&T, and I see no reason to believe why it wouldn't be the case with Microsoft.

Re:But it's not over

[sheldon]

This isn't a ruling at all, it's simply a refusal to hear a case.

It was expected that this would be the case. But, again, nothing was upheld by the SCOTUS. The SCOTUS is simply stating, "Look, the appeals court appears to be dealing with this and we would rather let them do so for now. If that doesn't work out, then come talk to us again and we'll think about it some more."

You are reading way too much into it. It's pretty much a non issue, and the most important thing happening is the negotiations at the appeals level.

Re:But it's not over

[cpt kangarooski]

Well, if you don't like it, you're going to have to either 1)make an _AMAZING_ case to overturn a finding of fact, which almost never ever happens or 2)redesign the entire American legal system from the ground up.

Like it or lump it, trial courts find facts, and all any appellate court in the nation can do is to determine if the law was properly applied to those unchangable facts. No one really even bothers making arguments on appeal regarding the facts -- it's a guaranteed loser.

Deal with the fact that they are a monopoly. You want to defend them -- you're going to have to find some way to do it that accounts for that. It's entirely possible. ATT was a monopoly in the 20's IIRC, and lasted for ~60 years with no more problems than being denied the ability to move into different markets, and strict governmental regulation. Then they elected to go with a breakup route and discovered, to their chagrin, that competition was a damn lot better for everyone.

MS ought to be thrilled about the possibility of a breakup -- it's better in the long run. But I could live with merely handing over the reins to the courts and Congress, if I must.

Re:But it's not over

[terrywin]

Sheldon is correct. A denial of cert means
nothing.

"...this [Supreme] Court has rigorously insisted that such a denial [to hear a case] carries with it no implication whatever regarding the Court's
views on the merits of a case which it has declined to review. The Court has said this
again and again; again and again the admonition has to be repeated."

(Justice Frankfurter, Maryland v. Broadcast Radio Sho, Inc. 338 US 912, 1950)

Re:But it's not over

[WNight]

I don't give a fuck for MS's stockholders. They should know not to buy the stock of a company that's performing many illegal actions.

The people I care about are the stockholders and employees of the companies MS drove out of business with their monopolistic practices.

I support making stockholders liable for the criminal actions of the companies they own stock in, when any due dilligence would have uncovered these practices.

Re:But it's not over

[cpt kangarooski]

Well, two points.
1) Monopolies are not capitalistic. Their closest relationship could be analogized as perhaps cancerous. Monopolies are, by and large, not at all effected by supply/demand curves. Because of the lack of viable alternatives (e.g. if there were only one water company, the fact that it rains doesn't erase the monopoly; rain's not enough) price can be arbitrarily increased, supply arbitrarily restricted, and consumers will, against their best interests, be compelled to continue supporting it.

In order for capitalism to function properly, we need perfect competition. Fully interchangable vendors and consumers. The ability to take advantage of even the slightest niches. Precisely the opposite from what you get with a monopoly. Natural monopolies may be tolerated, but they're not particularly good, and as it turns out, perhaps not as inevitable even in their rare niches, as previously imagined.

2) Screw capitalism. Why do you want capitalism? I would vastly prefer an economic system that was perfectly compatable with notions of justice and humanity and societal goals than capitalism.

Capitalism may be, in part, the closest we have yet come, but it is inherently no more deserving of our support than anything else. That is, adopt a capitalistic approach in choosing economic models! ;) Don't give into brand loyalty if it is disadvantageous for you to do so.

Furthermore, because we have laws, and desires that may be quite divorced from those of a perfect capitalist (e.g. I have no desire to see children employed in factories because it is inhumane) and we have therefore, the ability to pick certain parts of capitalism that we like (the efficiencies afforded through vigorous total competition, for example) and throw out the bits we don't like (like monopolies) by, in effect, putting our thumb on the scales and weighting it to the side that we most favor.

Thus, not all capitalistic endeavors are permitted. Not because they make economic sense, but because social concerns may be of greater importance. (e.g. not letting people pollute, not letting drugs go out untested, workplace safety standards, antitrust laws, banking regulations....)

Re:But it's not over

[iritant]

You're right. It's not a ruling, per se, and no precedent is set. However, this represents finality as far as the findings of fact in the Microsoft case are concerned. They *did* violate the law, and there will be no further appeal on that matter.

Re:But it's not over

[sheldon]

You are still reading way to much into this.

This wasn't a ruling, they have not upheld the findings of fact. They've done nothing.

All they've said right now is that they're not going to hear the case at this time, instead they are defering the judgement to the current ongoing appeals court process and won't interfer at this time.

Later on they still have the right to throw the whole thing out, if they feel that it has been that badly bungled. It's possible, even if it's not probable.

Re:But it's not over

[Prior Restraint]

...they are defering the judgement to the current ongoing appeals court process...

But the case is already back in the District Court, i.e., the appeals process is over.

Maybe I'm missing something (which tends to happen). I was under the impression that if SCOTUS did this, the findings of fact stand. Are you saying that once the District Court issues a new penalty, MS will be able to contest elements of the original ruling again?

Re:But it's not over

[SurfsUp]

You are reading way too much into it. It's pretty much a non issue, and the most important thing happening is the negotiations at the appeals level.

Instead of taking your word for it, I'll go see what my favorite news site has to say about it:

Their decision at this stage is hardly unexpected, but knocks the stuffing out of the legal arguments Microsoft's lawyers have been hammering since Jackson put on his black cap. The Appeals Court caned Jackson for blabbing to the press, and threw him off the case, but decided that despite his (in their view) deplorable conduct his verdict hadn't been tainted by bias. Microsoft however embarked on a tortuous process of arguing that even the appearance of possible bias meant that the whole thing ought to be slung out, and that the merry dance should be started again.

That will not now happen.

Aw, too bad. My question for you is: does it hurt?

Re:But it's not over

[gdchinacat]

May be offtopic, but worth pointing out. Microsoft is not in Seattle. It is in Redmond, which is across Lake Washington from Seattle. It is still very close, but I in no way am wrong because Microsoft happens to be based in Redmond. I hope you don't have the mis-conception that all of Seattle support Microsoft (which I doubt you do since Real is ACTUALLY based in Seattle).

You gotta take what you get

[Red Aardvark House]

No matter what it is. Sure, this isn't major news, but at least the Supreme Court has the wisdom to see how Microsoft was conducting business was wrong.

Now, I figure it's back to the lower courts to see what kind of penalty is recommended.

Most likely, it won't fit the crime.

Re:You gotta take what you get

[metis]

The Supreme court had the wisdom to see that
overruling an 8-1 decision of a fairly conservative court will do no good to its
own, already fairly shaken, reputation.

It's good news because it means that the finding
of fact are now the official undisputable truth as
far as all US courts are concerned.

But there's a long way to go before we see anything good coming from the case. It is too soon to party and too soon to despair.

Re:You gotta take what you get

[Jburkholder]

>but at least the Supreme Court has the wisdom to see how Microsoft was conducting business was wrong.

...or maybe they just refused to even look at it.

The high court declined without any comment or dissent to review the June 28 ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals

So, the appeal papers came back with a big red 'REFUSED' stamped on them. It isn't like they spent months and months looking over the entire case and came back and upheld Jackson's finding of fact.

They didn't exercise much wisdom, they decided there wasn't enough merit in Microsoft's arguments to accept the appeal.

Re:You gotta take what you get

[sconest]

IMO, microsoft will be fined a few hundred millions dollars. Not very much for them. Meanwhile, they'll have launched windows xp.

Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[mplex]

This is the question I have been pondering for a long time now. There is no doubt that msft hurts other companies by integrating the best ideas in to the OS itself, but that must be a plus for the consumer. Yes, they will pay more for things they do 'not' need but I have found myself using most of the features in XP and I know I don't want to give them up. Integration with the OS is the key to their success, and you can not argue that you can do less with windows now than in the past. Anything that is gaining momentum towards universal acceptance like music and web browing belongs in the OS so the functionality can be extended across the board. Just look at all the places embedded ie is showing up for instance. Maybe they have put a lot of companies out of buisness, and maybe they need to open up more of their interfaces to spurt new ideas, but a breakup? I would be pissed. Despite what anyone says about microsoft stealing ideas, the best artists steal. In fact, linux is a unix clone. There is no reason not to use a good idea, in fact it should be the norm. It might even help the linux crowd after examining each programmers idea of the perfect interface. I don't think I could imagine something other than a monopoly controlling the operating system market. We don't need two or three different logic systems, one is complex enough.

PS: I did use linux for four years on the desktop and have given up hope in that arena.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[gmkeegan]

"Every mighty oak was once just a nut who stood his ground."

So are you saying you're a might oak now, or still just a nut?

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Ghengis]

Now, listen to what you've just said, and imagine only paying half of what you paid or even gettting all that for free. That's what competition can do for the consumer.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Alien54]

There is no doubt that msft hurts other companies by integrating the best ideas in to the OS itself, but that must be a plus for the consumer.

I've said this before, but this idea is very much the Frankenstein Model of Design, with a bit of this, a bit of that.

Your logic does not hold much water, since the implication is that the best way to build a company is buy using immoral, unethical, and sometimes illegal actions.

Of course, with people avocating a morality nuetral perspective of life and business, this is to be expected.

Which is lethally silly in the long run. You would expect survival and quality of life to be increased by improving judgement, not by suspending it. You can't just say "That stuff and those rules don't apply to us because this is just business."

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Anonymous Coward]

This may be obvious, but...

- Anticompetitive behavior prevents new ideas from ever reaching the market. Had MS not been around, there would have been more innovation for sure, but nobody can say exactly where, because it didn't happen that way. Blocking innovation harms consumers in a general sense, and you don't have to point to a specific blocked technology to prove it ('cuz you'll never know if that technology would've died on its own anyway).

- You can't imagine anything but a monopoly controlling the OS market? What a lack of imagination! How about hundreds of vendors offering OS's which are based on public, published, standard APIs, in which competition isn't based on compatibility/lack of compatibility, but on service, platform tuning, etc. Sounds like a healthier marketplace to me.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[HalfFlat]

Microsoft's abuse of its monopoly position has hurt consumers both directly and indirectly.

Firstly, and most easily quantified, is the cost people pay for the operating system. Somewhere buried in the analysis that was floating about at the time of the trial, were the figures which showed that per-unit profits were not only high, but increasing over time. The argument is that this would not be sustainable in a competitive environment. In this situation, the only people benefitting were those with stock or some other interest in Microsoft.

Secondly, past introduced incompatibilities have inconvenienced or cost consumers. Such things as the DR-DOS debacle, or the incompatibility of 'standard' Microsoft file formats, or even the apropriation of file name extensions have put pressure on consumers to go the whole Microsoft way. This costs more money (or encourages copyright violation!), wastes time and is generally unhelpful.

Thirdly, the efforts which Microsoft have engaged in have slowed or stopped competition on a number of fronts. This has had an indirect effect on consumers through lack of options and alternatives. The situation with OS/2 springs to mind.

One can trawl the archives for more quantitative data, and other ways in which this situation has hurt consumers.

Another class of people hurt are developers, systems administrators and the like. Windows has never played nice in a mixed environment, and on occasion has been downright nasty. Mix that with the stability problems that have plagued many Windows versions, the lack of emphasis on security and so on, and it's a nightmare from a support point of view.

Oh! And then there are Macro viruses, Outlook-propogated viruses, and so on. A whole bunch of daft security decisions that have very much hurt consumers. Why would people stick with such virus-prone software? Monopoly perhaps?

I've been modded down before for being anti-Microsoft, but honestly, this is all based on personal experience and that information which has come to light through the anti-trust trials. This isn't malicious slander, it's simply true.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[G Neric]

Does Microsoft hurt the consumer? This is the question I have been pondering for a long time now. There is no doubt that
msft hurts other companies by integrating the best ideas in to the OS itself, but that
must be a plus for the consumer.

well, pondering is often a good thing, but pondering "solved" problems from the standpoint of no education is eventually a waste of time.

it is mathematically provable that monopolies hurt consumers. The price that maximizes profit for the monopoly is not the price that maximizes happiness to the consumer. in a competitive marketplace, it is.

'K? it is mathematically provable. So, if your pondering does not lead to further understanding along those lines (or to an overturning of accepted theory :) then you've got to change your thinking, most effectively through learning. Microsoft makes fistfuls of dough at a very high ratio to money invested, and they do it without competition. It turns out that it is also mathematically provable that in competitive markets, no competitor will make fistfuls of dough at a high ratio to money invested.

So, anything Microsoft "gives away" as a "benefit to consumers" must be seen in the light of the stuff that they do not give away that they make so much money from. The final thing that is provable in economics is that excess money that monopolists extract from a market would ordinarily be money that would belong to other people. Furthermore, it's not just a reshuffling of assets that libertarians think is "ok". By charging excess prices, monopolists also shrink the overall size of the market, destroying value that would belong to society at large. How many small businesses don't upgrade their computers because prices are too high? how many working class kids don't have computers because prices are too high? How many small businesses that could serve those markets simply don't exist? Many Many Many.

stop pondering and take a class in microeconomics, preferably one that requires calculus as a prereq.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Raul Acevedo]

First off, Microsoft kills off competition. You will never quite find out how the consumers could have benefitted, because Microsoft has eliminated possible new advances that could have competed with them.

But more than anything, we are now seeing the most obvious, direct, and "see, they are clearly a monopoly" harm: raised prices. It's even worse than just raised prices; it's clear that the advances in Windows and Office are really slowing down, so Microsoft is essentially forcing you to pay more for less. Microsoft is simply milking its customers, and even threatening them to audit them if they don't move to the new program.

If that isn't consumer harm, then I don't know what is.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[vocaljess]

yes.

here's why:

it is pretty damn near impossible to buy a computer in a mainstream store that isn't loaded with unneccesary and clunky microsoft products

once you get said machine home and try to make any modifications to what is loaded on it or try to move anything around, the computer then crashes on an even more regular basis.

if you are one of those weirdos who likes netscape, you suffer slow operation of the program, can't look at all websites because many designers are short-sighted enough to only test them in i.e., and generally have to put up with a lot of crap just to use a program that isn't microsoft in a microsoft environment.

if you are barely computer literate and/or just want a computer to play around with, do homework on, etc, you are at the mercy of windows just because other operating systems seem daunting and microsoft is the most accessible system everywhere.

so, yes, microsoft hurts the consumer by eliminating choice, by dictating to the consumer what they can and cannot use on the consumer's computer, and by driving other companies out of business, and thereby eliminating jobs and healthy competition which would serve to control prices.

in short, bill gates is the devil. ;-)

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[mimbleton]

"Firstly, and most easily quantified, is the cost people pay for the operating system. "

Overall, it is still cheaper than systems from its biggest competitor Apple.

"Such things as the DR-DOS debacle, or the incompatibility of 'standard' Microsoft file formats, or even the apropriation of file name extensions have put pressure on consumers to go the whole Microsoft way."

Hmm ... and Unix world with its widespread competition and no single dominating vendor is such a beautiful picture of compatible standards and things smoothly working across different vendors.

"This has had an indirect effect on consumers through lack of options and alternatives. The situation with OS/2 springs to mind."

If a company bigger than MS is unable to market their OS then maybe, just maybe their OS wasn't as good as MS offering (as far as consumers were concerned.)

"Mix that with the stability problems that have plagued many Windows versions, the lack of emphasis on security and so on, and it's a nightmare from a support point of view."

Do something about it, don't buy their OS and switch to Unix or Linux.You have that freedom.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[BWJones]

"Maybe they have put a lot of companies out of buisness, and maybe they need to open up more of their interfaces to spurt new ideas, but a breakup?"

And this does not end up hurting the consumer? When companies are forced out of business we loose their productivity and the products that they could deliver to the consumer. And I am NOT going to buy the argument that M$ takes up that slack. If the product fits in with their overall goals, then yes it will be implemented (and typically quite badly). Otherwise it goes in the round file or get sat on if it competes.

"Despite what anyone says about microsoft stealing ideas, the best artists steal."

Is this a troll? I would argue that the best artists innovate and bring together disparate ideas to synthesize a new whole. M$ clearly does not do this.

"I don't think I could imagine something other than a monopoly controlling the operating system market. We don't need two or three different logic systems, one is complex enough."

How long have you been using computers? This is exactly what the morons in charge of the Navy's IT21 program thought when they decided to standardize on Windows. Look at all of the problems and cost that the security and stability issues have brought on. Tell me that does not harm the consumer with the increased tax dollars required.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[havardi]

excess money that monopolists extract from a market would ordinarily be money that would belong to other people

This is why I feel good about being a poor college student; the money that I *could* be making is distributed to the poor and needy and upper class... I feel quite charitable.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[PieceMaker]

But more than anything, we are now seeing the most obvious, direct, and "see, they are clearly a monopoly" harm: raised prices [cnet.com].

That is hardly proof that they are a monopoly. Gas prices have gone up (and now lately back down) over the past few months. When they went up, was that proof that the company I buy gas from is a monopoly? Prices for products change for a variety of reasons. When they go up, that is not proof that there is a monopoly.

It's even worse than just raised prices; it's clear that the advances in Windows and Office are really slowing down, so Microsoft is essentially forcing you to pay more for less.

How so? Are you really compelled to go out and buy Windows XP? I know I am not planning on buying it. On the other hand, if I change my mind and decide I want its features bad enough, I will go out and buy it if I think the price is fair. The decision rests with me.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Christopher Craig]

Overall, it is still cheaper than systems from its biggest competitor Apple.

So Microsoft, as a monopoly, has pressured nearly everyone else out of the market. Now, with all of the competition gone, they are cheaper than their remaining competitor and therefore have not cost the consumer by having prices higher than they would have had the competitors they put out of buisness still existed. Does this seem like faulty logic to anyone else?

Do something about it, don't buy their OS and switch to Unix or Linux.You have that freedom.

You have that freedom so long as you don't have to view documents from, or share documents with, the 95% of the world that insists on having everything in Word. You have that freedom so long as you never have to view a web page with proprietary IE or VB functionality. You have that freedom so long as you never have to use a Windows only application. You, in reality, rarely have that freedom. I have two Linux boxes and a Solaris box, but I still have to have Windows on my laptop at work to be able to operate in a modern, all microsoft, corporate environment.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[GooberToo]

Good for the consumer? What does XP cost? $250.00? According to the documents that came out during the trail, the top of the linux consumer OS should be no more than $40.00. That leaves $210.00 to invest in other significant software packages? If you assume the average consumer software package is what, $40 or $50, then that's still four or five significant add ons which would be developed in a competitive market which more than likely would of be a better, faster, stronger implementation than what already comes with XP.

Anyone that says that MS hasn't hurt the consumer is living in their own little dream world. That's not to say that they haven't had a good idea or two. They have. But the point is, they have failed to innovate anything. Everything that is MS is a rip-off or purchase from someone else. Again, squashing areas of growth and development which is not only bad for the consumer market but for the development market. You look elsewhere in other industries, you'll find three, four, and lots more, of groups competing and developing against each other, each trying to out due the other. With Microsoft in the picture, all of these jobs have been eliminated from the market place and the end result is a lesser product that you are now over paying for. Plain and simple. A monopoly is NEVER good for the consumer.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[vidarh]

In itself raised prices isn't a proof. But when production costs doesn't increase at the same rate as the prices, and the company in question has margins above practically anyone else in the industry, it's a pretty damn good proof that they are using their monopoly to milk consumers.

If you can find any company with any real competition that manage to get margins anywhere near Microsoft, then I'd like to hear about it...

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Raul Acevedo]

My point wasn't so much that only raising prices is proof of a monopoly. It is one of the indicators, but my point was simply that Microsoft is hurting the consumer by raising prices without raising the benefits.

Saying that you don't plan to buy Windows XP as proof that no one is being forced to buy Windows is the most naive thing I have ever heard. Who cares about individual buyers, especially the oh-so-few that actually have the knowledge to make a choice? The battle is among corporate customers, and they are pretty much forced into it, again because Microsoft has a monopoly.

Note that there's a similar problem even with the average consumer who must pay the Microsoft tax on a new computer.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Auckerman]

There is no denying that bundling helps consumers. Apple does it, Linux does it, FreeBSD does it, everyone does it. It's more of a matter of only having ONE vender for those bundled services. What if HP's customers DON'T want WMP, but instead need Quicktime as the default API for all multimedia services? Too bad, WMP must be the default. What if Dells customers don't want .Net on any of their machines and instead what a different service? Too bad, .NET must be prominent. Last but not least, as we have seen with a more recent worm that can be spread by merely opening a web page, there is little to no recourse you, I or and OEM has. In a choice driven market of bundled services, when a vender repeatedly bundles insecure services on their computers, their customers will have recourse and will be able to migrate to a more secure enviroment.

How is this acheived? Simple. Give OEM's the same right of first sale that everyeone else has. Let any OEM remove or add any service from Windows they feel their customers don't want or want, then let the market decide.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[mimbleton]

There are alternatives and MS is not forcing you or millions of others into using their software.
Most people find MS products superior for their needs ( they really do) and won't even switch to free alternative.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[clontzman]

I doubt it costs Adobe $995 for each iteration of Photoshop, and yet people are willing to pay that for the program and several hundred dollars for each incremental upgrade (in which, every often, the core functionality remains unchanged). Ditto for Macromedia, ditto for just about every software product.

Fact is, Windows is priced at a pretty competitive amount with its competition:
XP Home: $99
OS X: $129

No one can say that the software that runs your hardware, that browses the Web, that provides your networking, etc., isn't worth $100 unless you're an outrageous cheapskate.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[ChaosDiscordSimple]

Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

When did we stop being a nation of citizens and become a nation of consumers? The government is supposed to protect its citizens. Anyway...

There is no doubt that msft hurts other companies by integrating the best ideas in to the OS itself, but that must be a plus for the consumer.

There is more to helping consumers than just giving them (sorta) free stuff. Microsoft's tactics were designed to destroy competition. Competition is good for the public, it encourages lower prices, higher quality, and specialized products for different needs. Once a person or business is largely using Microsoft products, proprietary protocols and file formats create a prison that is very expensive to migrate out of.

Furthermore, integration isn't the only crime Microsoft commited. Microsoft repeated took steps to actively deny people options. Restrictive agreements with ISPs to limit end users from using competing web browsers. Apple wanted to ship only Netscape with new versions of MacOS, but Microsoft leveraged their office suite monopoly to force Apple to make IE the default browser. Several computer manufacturers wanted to ship additional functionality for customers on new systems, functionality like additional ISP options and Netscape Navigator, but Microsoft used restrictive license agreements to stop them.

Microsoft's tactics definately harmed consumers. The immediate gain of a web browser or similar additions doesn't outweight the cost.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[clontzman]

Now, listen to what you've just said, and imagine only paying half of what you paid or even gettting all that for free. That's what competition can do for the consumer.

Just because something's free doesn't mean that it's superior. In the real world, developers demand to be (and should be) paid for their services and the only way to reliably do that is charge for software. It's the only software business model that has been proven to work profitably over time.

You wouldn't depend purely on the kindness of others for your food or your shelter, nor should you do so for your software.

Besides, we've seen what happens when competition drives prices below what the market will sustain: companies go out of business and the whole cycle starts over again.

Getting everything for free isn't the answer... getting it for what it's worth is what drives our economy.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[piroshki]

The dilemma you are underlying is a very confusing one. Yes, better integration into the OS is better for consumers; No, companies going out of business because MS makes it's OS better is not better for consumers.

I think the problem with the way you position the problem is you assume several OSes is a bad scenario; I assume what is implied here is that developers will now have to develop 1 app for every OS... which clearly sucks. The core issue here is that you are being pushed into this reasoning because there IS no OS competition.

If you assume that we had 3 OSes with 33% of the market each - competition among them would be fierce. Indeed I believe they would strive to become the best platforms for the most valuable developers, and I don't believe they could do it without supporting some common platform. Every OS that would not support common interfaces would go under, and the other ones would be competing on performance, excecution, design and support - which is where we WANT them to compete.

where it gets difficult is when an operating system company also builds software. If the MS Word team were an independant company, they would have incredible leverage in forcing OS companies to adhere to (a) common standard(s).

If you take away the position of force MS is in, then the market starts dictacting what an OS should be, and it's no longer up to Bill.

that's a good thing imho :)

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[SIGFPE]

A monopoly isn't a total loss for the consumer. Microsoft can squash competition but in doing so the ideas those dead companies had do survive in MS products. However capitalism is about optimality. Capitalism is a great system for distributing resources and it's good at achieving optima. But there are some situations where it fails and one of those is a monopolistic market. With MS we are a long way from an optimum. There's nothing like a good bit of competition to lower prices and really speed up technological development. This situation simply doesn't exist in the case of MS.

So while MS's policies might be a plus for the consumer I'd personally like to see an even bigger plus.

I have found myself using most of the features in XP

This is a rare thing. I never bet. But today I will. I bet this is a false statement. I suspect you couldn't even list half of the features in XP. I suspect Bill Gates couldn't. So I doubt you have used 'most features'. Windows is big. Really BIG. But that's irrelevant.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[manyoso]

People won't switch because they are stuck trying to read other peoples documents encoded in MicroShaft's proprietary lock-in file format.

People won't switch because hardware manufacturers won't release drivers for other platforms because MicroShaft has a monopoly so why should they.

People won't switch because they have no choice when buying consumer grade, pre-built computers in all major retail outlets.

People won't switch because MicroShaft has a monopoly on Intel compatible desktop operating systems, not because of 'superior' microshaft crap software.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[arkanes]

Thats blatantly false - Microsoft products, as a whole, are not innately superior - they're superior because of the power MS is able to bring behind them. Proprietary APIs are a good example - noone can make a mass-appeal alternative to Office because MS likes to play games with the file formats and uses hidden API hooks into the OS. If other vendors were able to see into those hidden areas, they could easily make a product that matched Office. If vendors were able to remove and replace MS applications that ship with the OS, then Dell and HP and whatnot would be open to distribution agreements with the creators of this hypothetical suite.
This would be a perfect opportunity for the average consumer to realize that Microsoft isn't the only source for computing. Which of course is exactly what MS DOESN'T want, and what they use all the monopoly power to stop from happening.
Let me make this clear: No, MS thugs aren't beating down my doors, making me use windows. But, with thier monopoly posistion, they are able to use market forces as an alternative to competing themselves - so rather than making a superior product, they simply make an okay product that is the most visible and easily obtained. Thats a valid marketing strategy, but it wouldn't work if they couldn't leverage thier OS monopoly to power it.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[ethereal]

It's not worth $100 when I can get it for free. It's only worth $100 if you are too lazy to shop around for the best OS for your needs. Providing PC hardware control was maybe worth money in 1985, and network connectivity was maybe worth money in 1995. Sorry, that profit point has passed.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[hacker]

Oh! And then there are Macro viruses, Outlook-propogated viruses, and so on. A whole bunch of daft security decisions that have very much hurt consumers. Why would people stick with such virus-prone software? Monopoly perhaps?

..how about the fact that a little "security" problem here and there will increase calls to the Microsoft Support Center, and encourage "upgrade-itis". Once consumers get used to "going online" to get their patches, the whole .NET thing almost seems natural to them. People get used to going online to get their patches, a fix patches a hole in one thing, opens another in another thing. By the time you're done installing the 30+ patches and fixes, your system is basically XP or Win9x with XP underpinnings.

Additionally, haven't you noticed that you can no longer simply download the updates, service packs, and fixes? You have to have them "streamed" to you through IE to apply them. Yes, I know you can find them on the corporate site if you dig, but it's not tied to the "Windows Update" option in everyone's Start Menu.... just like file extensions.. you can find them, but it's not intuitive.

Don't be misled. These things are intentional.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Phill Hugo]

> PS: I did use linux for four years on the desktop and have given up hope in that arena

I assume this loss of hope to be recent so in this four years you've seen the KDE and GNOME projects grow to 2nd and 3rd generation, you've seen Free/Open software like Galeon, Konqueror, Nautilus, Evolution, GnomoVision ;), yada yada be released, grow through regular release, reach stability and become part of your adopted toolkit such that each month (or day for the Debian users) you update your machine and find the same apps filled with even more tweaks and features, stable enough for daily use and with no slowing in sight.

You watch StarOffice be GPLd and head toward being a Free Word and Excel compatible option for everyone. In part due to this, you've seen the ever growing interest in the corporate linux desktop and now, with the growth rate of Linux on a marked increase in yet another IT arena(*), you've given up.

(*) - aside LAN servers, web servers, clusters, embedded devices and development workstations.

Did you just keep a 1996 Slackware installation on your 120Mb parition for 4 years or what?

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[mimbleton]

Everyone is talking about them but am yet to see an example of these hidden APIs used in MS Office.
There are things that MS Office can do which other products won't get away with ( like introducing new common controls DLLs) but it is far cry from using hidden APIs.

"This would be a perfect opportunity for the average consumer to realize that Microsoft isn't the only source for computing"

Sure they can. It is not like stores selling Apple stuff are being prosecuted or singled out by MS war machine.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[mimbleton]

"People won't switch because they are stuck trying to read other peoples documents encoded in MicroShaft's proprietary lock-in file format."

Hell, there are very viable and working commercial toolkits allowing 3rd programs to read MS Office files.

"People won't switch because hardware manufacturers won't release drivers for other platforms because MicroShaft has a monopoly so why should they."

Whose fault is that ?

"People won't switch because they have no choice when buying consumer grade, pre-built computers in all major retail outlets."

They do. There are Apple computers available.
Furthermore, selling Linux based systems is not very viable business idea as recent problems with VA Linux demonstrated.
As I said, people do not want other stuff.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[ethereal]

Oh, if they had only named it "assport", the back orifice jokes would never end :)

I would say that perception does not necessarily equal reality. At places of business, I see a lot more supporting of Windows being needed with very little Linux support required. Although I'll admit that for home users this is reversed, so it's a good deal for OEMs because business customers will subsidize their own internal support whereas home users will call the OEM directly. I imagine the support calls you would get if you tried to migrate home users away from Windows would be fairly expensive, but on the other end it would be a lot easier for OEMs to leave a secure backdoor into customer systems that would allow them to login and fix things. So with the effort up front Linux could be more supportable by OEMs, but the switchover would be painful. Here's hoping that Microsoft keeps cranking up the Windows pain to make the decision for them...

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Prior Restraint]

Fact is, Windows is priced at a pretty competitive amount with its competition:
XP Home: $99
OS X: $129

Fact is, OS X isn't WinXP's competition. If you had bothered to follow the case that is supposed to be the topic at hand, you'd know that: A) the "relevant market" is x86 PCs; and B) the greatest price pressure on any recent version of Windows comes from the previous iteration. WinXP's "competition" is WinME.

No one can say that the software that runs your hardware, that browses the Web, that provides your networking, etc., isn't worth $100 unless you're an outrageous cheapskate.

Invalid argument. The $99 price is for an upgrade. In order to qualify for it, you already have to have software that runs your hardware, that browses the Web, that provides your networking, etc. Is it your position that only an outrageous cheapskate wouldn't pay $200 to acquire these things for the first time? Show me how upgrading from WinME to WinXP is obviously worth $100 to all but the outrageous cheapskates among us.

PS - Does anyone know if the OS X price quoted is an upgrade? Just curious.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Mr. Piccolo]

As far as I can tell, nope.

Plus you get "Classic" AKA Mac OS 9 FREE! That's TWO great OSes for ONE AMAZING LOW PRICE of just $129.99*!!!

*Macintosh computer not included. See box for details.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Prior Restraint]

Gas prices have gone up (and now lately back down) over the past few months. When they went up, was that proof that the company I buy gas from is a monopoly?

Ever hear of OPEC? They decided to lower production and -- surprise! -- gas prices went up. More recently (and especially after the events of 09-11), they decided to ramp up production and -- surprise! -- gas prices went down.

Next time, think your examples through.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[PieceMaker]

Ever hear of OPEC? They decided to lower production and -- surprise! -- gas prices went up. More recently (and especially after the events of 09-11), they decided to ramp up production and -- surprise! -- gas prices went down.

Uh, yeah, I've heard of OPEC. And, yeah, they can impact gas prices by acting as a cartel (i.e. a monopoly) and artificially restricting oil supplies and/or colluding to set prices per barrel. That does not invalidate my point. Prices go up and down for a variety of reasons, as a function of supply and demand. The events of 9/11 have caused a tremendous slackening of demand for oil due to people's increased fear of flying. That resulted in huge financial loses to the airlines, which then had to lay off something on the order of 100,000 people combined. In an already weakening economy, this created an even greater pessimism amongst consumers, who consequently are not buying at the high rates companies had hoped for. This means less demand for goods in general, which translates to a reduced need to manufacture and ship goods, which also means less demand for gas. The point? OPEC can impact the price of gas, but so can other factors. My original point still stands and is correct: increasing prices are not proof of monopolistic behaviour.

Next time, think your examples through.

Next time, follow your own advice.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Christopher Craig]

They do. There are Apple computers available. Furthermore, selling Linux based systems is not very viable business idea as recent problems with VA Linux demonstrated. As I said, people do not want other stuff.

You seem to be missing the entire point. You're right. Most people prefer Microsoft to the strawman competition that Microsoft has chosen to allow to remain in the marketplace. Of course they do. Do you really think that Microsoft would have bailed out Apple or ported Office and IE to the platform if they thought it was going to offer real competition? I don't understand how you can offer the majority's preference of Microsoft over Apple or Microsoft over what is still essentially a hobbist platform as proof that Microsoft's monopoly has been noninjurious. The question is not MS versus those not worthy of MS's consideration. The question is would consumers prefer the operating systems that would have come out of a competitive market to Microsoft's. The cheaper, faster systems that could have competed with Windows. The systems we will not see so long as Microsoft has a monopoly because they continue to crush anyone who might offer a superior platform.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[clontzman]

$129 for OS X is, by definition, an upgrade. You can only install it on Macintoshes and you can't buy a Macintosh without OS n, so anything you'd buy in the store would have to qualify as an upgrade.

Invalid argument. The $99 price is for an upgrade. In order to qualify for it, you already have to have software that runs your hardware, that browses the Web, that provides your networking, etc. Is it your position that only an outrageous cheapskate wouldn't pay $200 to acquire these things for the first time? Show me how upgrading from WinME to WinXP is obviously worth $100 to all but the outrageous cheapskates among us.

I think you're just being a bit pedantic there. Almost no one pays $200 to acquire the software the first time -- it's usually amortized into the cost of a new PC (and, no, it doesn't add $200 to the cost -- Dell machines with Linux cost about the same as those with Windows). Just about everyone who purchases Windows buys the upgrade copy which is $100, and if they don't want the new features (listen carefully...) they don't have to upgrade.

Re:Does Microsoft hurt the consumer?

[Prior Restraint]

$129 for OS X is, by definition, an upgrade. [Explains why.]

Good point. Thanks for the insight.

I think you're just being a bit pedantic there.

Isn't that the point of /.?

In all seriousness, though, I think I failed in explaining my position (mainly by being too confrontational; let me try a friendlier approach). You said, "No one can say that the software that runs your hardware, that browses the Web, that provides your networking, etc., isn't worth $100 unless you're an outrageous cheapskate." For the sake of amicability, I'll agree with this assertion. The problem is, an upgrade only gets you the "etc." Everyone already has the other stuff. You only "get" these other things when you buy the full version. Another way to put it is: Your statement seems to argue that $100 is a reasonable price for the full version, putting the upgrade somewhere in the $50-$60 range. In that context, I consider the price of WinXP to be far too high.

Re:Appeal to a higher court!

[Dutchmaan]

He already sent his ruling...

Our apathy and turning a blind eye to the business practices of MS has put MS where it is today and allowed them to almost freely abuse their power. IMHO it's basically a "hey, you did it to yourselves" kind of ruling.

(half tongue in cheek)

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[Jaysyn]

Is it just me or is something inherently wrong with that picture?

Jaysyn

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[Diabolical]

At least it will still take a while for this case to finish. In the mean time the current economy can strenghten again and the general feeling will be more altruistic.

MicroSoft lost this case but there are of course more to be fought. Let's see those before we begin whining.

Anyway. If MicroSoft continues to put out products as they do now they will themselves destroy what they created. Look at the last couple of weeks. All the bad press sure rings a few alarmbells over there. Gartner who has been very lenient (not pro but not contra as well) towards MS are now actively advising to drop MS products in the internet arena.

No... i'm not afraid of the future. MicroSoft will get what it deserves.. whatever it deserves.

Where's the DOJ comment of this ruling?

[hillct]

I've scoured the DOJ website and the wire services but can't find any response from the DOJ. Granted this is overshadowed by other issues they're focusing on atthe moment but surely they have a response... Anyone wnow what or where it is?

--CTH

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[FatRatBastard]

[BZZZZZZZ] Wrong... tell 'em what they're going home with Don Pardo.

So you're telling me that the tech market in the last 5 years has been technically sound and the ONLY thing that made them collapse was Microsoft? I think you may need to brush up on how the market works. Sure, bellweather stocks influence smaller stocks, but if a smaller stock is FUNDAMENTALLY SOUND it will survive.

So it wasn't the irrational exuberance of the telecom industry that fucked up Cisco, Lucent, et al, it was the gov't action against Microsoft? So it wasn't the fact that many pure dot.com companies were generating NO revenue that wasn't their downfall, it was the gov't action against Microsoft?
Nice troll. No clue.

Re:Appeal to a higher court!

[then, it was nigh]

Think God will listen to their case?

I imagine God would have to recuse Himself on the grounds of conflict of interest, considering that Microsoft owns his primary competitor.

Microsoft Offers New "Microsoft Court XP"

[melquiades]

REDMOND, October 21, 2001 -- Microsoft annouced today their new "Microsoft Court XP" software. The software settles legal claims using Microsoft Law XP technology, the company's new standard for legal systems. According to Microsoft's press release, the software is capable of establishing legal precedent, providing checks and balances against the "other three branches of government", and also "upholding the supreme law of the land."

The software, which will be bundled with all new pressings of Windows XP, is Microsoft's bid for entry in the competitive court market. Entry will prove difficult, but a Microsoft spokesperson expressed optimism. "We are confident that our innovative concept can compete. Just think about it: checks and balances, like, who'd come up with that shit? Innovation, baby! Can't touch this!"

According to the company's web site, Microsoft Law XP will be released under a "shared source" model in which selected plaintiffs and defendents using Microsoft Court will be allow to view the laws under which they are being tried, but not to modify or redistribute them. "We wanted to draw on the best of both worlds," said Microsoft spokesperson Craig Mundie. "We like the collaborative aspect of the Democratic model, but feel that its viral transmission of rights to all citizens constitutes a real threat to the intellectual assets of businesses."

Some critics charge that the release, which follows closely on the Supreme Court's rebuke of Microsoft on October 9, is an anti-competitive move by Microsoft, and an attempt to use monopoly power to take over the market for legal systems.

"This is more M$ FUD," said one post moderated +4 (Insightful) on Slashdot, "They're bundling this software with their OS, and the software keep reassociating itself with the 'legal action' file type. Sure, all the p0w3r u53rz will work around it, but most of those inept peons we call the public will file a suit, and end up using their software without even realizing they had an option."

Mundie vigorously denied these allegations, calling them "the unreasonable accusations of a vocal minority."

"I just want to emphasize Microsoft Law is an open standard," said Mundie.

A source at Microsoft, on condition of anonymity, told reporters, "All your law are belong to us."

Does killing ever help?

[#!/bin/allen]

Microsoft kills it's competition. How can that help the consumer. It is now beginning to see it's customers as competitors.

The real question is how much damage can it do before it self-destructs? We've been asking that question since the '80s.

Die Already

[mnordstr]

This is like a bug that keeps bugging you and just won't die. Get the case overwith already, this is getting annoying.

Re:YEAH!!! DOWN with the Evil Giant!!!

[dreamquick]

I'm always reminded of a quote from the simpsons in cases like this - "If I don't see it it's not illegal".

The best liars are those who are too stupid to know that what they are telling you is complete b/s - what percentage of MS sales staff have ever even tried *n?x, therefore don't know any better?

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[Cenuij]

'Each blow against MS was a blow against the tech market as a whole.' Jeesus wept...

Other possible remedies that would work

[DickBreath]

First look at what the Government does NOT want to do:

• Break MS up
• Constantly have to oversee (babysit) them
• (Presumably) prevent future abuses

So what remedies would accomplish these goals? (Assuming the third is also a goal?)

• Force MS to open up and document all APIs which they themselves use in any application
• Force MS to open up and document all file formats
• Force MS to open up and document all protocols

Now what does this accomplish? It doesn't force MS to give up their precious source code. It makes anyone free to compete with MS. MS can't complain -- they must play by different rules since they have the monopoly over the standards -- so they should document them. Just as the phone company should open up the plug-and-electrical-spec format for third party telephone equipment. Conversely, MS is free to compete with anyone else who chooses to compete with them. If MS can build a better office suite than joe blow, then great, they should win in the market. They should just not win because of their monopoly. They should sink or swim based on the merit of their product. But in doing so, they can't prevent others from competing.

Based on the remedies I describe above, others could build office suites, file servers, and Win32 programs on equal footing with MS. Who wins now comes down to product merit and marketing. But not strictly due to monopoly control.

Similarly to MS not having to give up their valuable impleentations of these specs, it is expensive for others to create interoperable implementations in order to compete.

These arguments all would make sense to the court.


(of course, it's hard to compete with free implementations. heh, heh.)

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[CyberGarp]

In regard to DickBreath's "remedies":

Force MS to open up and document all APIs which they themselves use in any application Force MS to open up and document all file formats Force MS to open up and document all protocols

And where does this lead? Microsoft goes of and grudgingly does this. A round of competition starts. Microsoft then releases a new OS with a revised tool set and a new set of "standards." And they make any use of the old "standards" heavily penalized in the new OS. The industry cries FOUL and the whole thing ends up back in court.

I heard a historical account of one of the first anti-trust lawsuits in us courts. It was about some shoe company that had monopolized the industry. It took the courts almost 20 years to get around to breaking up the shoe monopoly, with plenty of shennagians like this along the way.

So Jambie gives a prediction: Court comes out with ruling, Microsoft complies and then subverts intentions of ruling and twists it to their advantage, thus ending them in court again. Repeat this cycle until the courts get miffed enough to take severe action.

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[DickBreath]

I suppose I should have also mentioned...

• Document all future API's, protocols, and file formats as well

Documenting standards even if they are de-facto standards rather than o-fish-al standards from some standards body, can only be a good thing. MS doesn't have to give up any source code. They just have to compete on a level playing field. They can't play IBM's old change all the plugs and interfaces game of musical chairs. This year the disk drive is integrated into the CPU cabinet. Next year it isn't. Then it uses a different interface. etc., etc.

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[GooberToo]

So what remedies would accomplish these goals? (Assuming the third is also a goal?)

* Force MS to open up and document all APIs which they themselves use in any application
* Force MS to open up and document all file formats
* Force MS to open up and document all protocols



You forgot one of the most important ones. They should be prohibited from pre-announing ANY products. They should only be allowed to announce a product when it is within 30-days of it's release. Furthermore, if the product is not publically available at the end of the 30-day period, a million or two dollar fine should be imposed for each day as well as all product related profits for a period of 60-days once it is released (as it related to the announcement -- including service offerings) siezed for a competition development fund. The fund in turn, should be administrated by the government whereby, public companies, having no relationship with Microsoft, can obtain a development grant for competing products (of course, there should be a strict qualification process to get these funds). Of course, any public announcements to be made by Microsoft should first be proceeded by a document stating MS's initial advertising compaign costs and market focus, etc, to ensure that they do not try to back out on sales until after the 60-day "fine" window has gone by.

This measure and the fund would serve as a wonderful means to help keep Microsoft in check as well as helping fund smaller software companies to actually be able to compete with Microsoft.
Just imagine, a competing product paid for my Microsoft. Now, that's justice!

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[Milican]

Sounds alot like bullshit to me. Don't forget freedom of speech commie.

JOhn

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[CyberGarp]

Yes, but the fact that they are required to document even "all future API's, etc." doesn't change the fact that they are defining the playing field. As long as they have that advantage, they can switch the field as quickly as others can adapt. Even though it's more costly for them, it's still a wonderful monopolizing advantage.

They won't compete on a level field as long as they have any control over the field. I certainly wouldn't in their position. They don't view the market as a sport, they view it as a battle.

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[beme]

I like those remedies.
I'd also like to see the ol' "No more requiring OEMs to use the MS boot loader" remedy. That's the real biggie when it comes to alternative OS competition (which IMHO leads to improved competition everywhere).

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[Anonymous Coward]

Excellent suggestion. For reference, until very very recently, IBM had similar rules enacted against it for system 390 related products and annoucements. If it weren't for those consent decree's, we would all still be using 3270 terminals connected to mainframes to do our computing. Without antitrust against IBM, there would not have even BEEN a PC industry or Microsoft. Who knows what the opportunity cost of NOT punishing Microsoft is doing to our economy now.

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[DickBreath]

I agree with your comments about how Microsoft sees the game.

I don't think MS would stay in control of the field forever though. Right now, they own the desktop. You must run MS Office if you are serious. By opening the specs up, then other office suites get a fair chance to compete.

I believe that others can compete better. The only business model that MS knows is how to leverage monopolies. If MS could provide a better value product (either cheaper or better or both) then they deserve to win, pure and simple. My belief is that they don't know how to compete. Therefore they will fail in a competitive market. Therefore others will eventually set the standards. Perhaps -- gasp! -- either open standards, or maybe at least through industry cooperation based on recognition of the value of interoperability, or customer demand for it.

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[michael_cain]

Don't forget that the Appeals Court upheld the lower court ruling that "code mingling" between the OS and apps, and making MS apps non-removable, is illegal. Any meaningful remedy must address this, so that OEMs like Dell and HP, as well as end users, have the freedom to remove MS apps completely and put others in their place. I think that this is the real heart-and-soul of the case-- that there be a clean seperation of OS and apps.

While I would applaud MS making the Office file formats open (in the sense that they be completely documented and that there are no restrictions on others' use of that documentation), I think it's a big stretch to get from any of the activities that have been ruled illegal to forcing MS to open the application formats.

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[DickBreath]

"No more requiring OEMs to use the MS boot loader" remedy

I agree. But I would point out that if customers demand XXX-Office iinstead of MS-Office, then this problem will solve itself. Thus solving the compatibility with monopoly programs, that is Windows and Office, solves all the problems.

There can be competitive Office. Competitive Fileservers. Competitive WINE! In fact, competitive anything that MS makes. Quite an irony given today's situation where if you make anything MS will come and compete with you and then kill you.

Even, hypothetically, if the boot loader problem were not solved, this can be worked around. OEM ships a disk with two OSes loaded. The boot loader is MS's boot loader and will only load MS. But preinstalled on the desktop, or via. a floppy disk or CD is a program that boots into the alternative, which then replaces the boot loader. Or simply provide a bootable floppy that replaces the boot loader. What I'm saying is that this is not an insurmountable a problem as some paint it. But it would be worth fixing in the remedies for everyone's good (including Microsoft's).

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[DickBreath]

I think that this is the real heart-and-soul of the case -- that there be a clean seperation of OS and apps.

But without documented interfaces between those seperated pieces, they can keep us forever reverse engineering everything. What secret API's do they use? How does Word store revisions in it's documents? (only recently answered in Star Office 6.) What secret new nasty business do they sneak into SMB, Kerberos, etc., etc., etc.

So while I agree that your point is good, you must still open up the playing field to interoperability. That is one battle that MS must surely loose. They simply cannot play on a level playing field. But as long as there are no interoperable apps, then Dell, HP, etc. will continue to bundle Office, even though they have the choice not to.

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[DickBreath]

I think it's a big stretch to get from any of the activities that have been ruled illegal to forcing MS to open the application formats.

Not really. The purpose of a remedy is to repair the situation. Why would a breakup be a remedy? All you've done is create two mini monopolies: one for OSes and one for Office. It could also be argued that opening up formats/protocols, etc. is part of what is required to make unbundling work. Otherwise alternatives won't appear, and voluntary bundling will continue by OEM's.

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[Happy Monkey]

doesn't change the fact that they are defining the playing field.

Almost every word processor (for example) has their own file format. I'm not sure what remedy could stop that from happening. However, with a documented file format, format conversion utilities would be (almost) trivial. And with easy format conversions, competition becomes much more feasible, no matter how big Microsoft is.

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[GooberToo]

Hmmm.... Interesting. Considering this type of thing has been used before, including against big blue, I don't see how this could be a problem. Interesting that you consider a healthy competitive market place to be communistic.

I wonder if I should fear being black listed by the nut jobs of Hollywood now...nope...sure wouldn't want anyone to have an independant thought. Nope!

On the other hand, I can sure see how limiting MS' ability to steer the market place with vaporware announcements isn't in everyone's best interest. Sure. Makes sense. Thank you for making my vision clear. I'm healed! Thankfully I now understand that consumer protection and the health of our market is communistic.

Thankfully your,
Greg

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[GooberToo]

Simple. The charges leveled that they are a monopoly and that they have undue control of the desktop/consumer computer market place. Considering something like this was done with IBM, it would seemingly apply.

I think you forget that it is often enough for MS to state they will deliver "x" to the market place in a year but deliver it in 4. In the mean time, pretty much everyone in that field stopped developing for fear of being smashed. Of course, this also works to prevent MS from ALWAYS steering the standards too. If they can't prerelease their lies and abuse the market, it's much harder for them to minipulate it. If you can't see the connection now, I have serious concerns about you being a MS camper.

This is very realivant and hardly spurious.

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[GooberToo]

Thank you. Someone mod this up please. Wish you hadn't posted anonymously so it would of scored higher.

Greg

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[MrBogus]

I just want to point out that this discussion tree is all shoulda-coulda, and has nothing to do with the current state of the trial.

Force MS to open up and document all file formats

Did anyone mention Microsoft Office at any time, anywhere in the court proceedings? No. While it's true that MSO is probably a monopoly product, no court of law has determined that. Your desire to read Word documents on Unix is valid but irrelevant here.

Force MS to open up and document all APIs which they themselves use in any application

This is a very important point, specifically because of Microsoft's tendancy to introduce new APIs at the same time they ship a product that uses them. Furthermore, their internal applicaiton coders have at least read-only access to source code and access to preliminary documentation. It would makes sense to create an equal access situation (which is effectively what a breakup creates).

However, the Bush DOJ dropped the "comingling" portion of the case, and it won't happen. Sorry.

Really, what the current trial boils down to is Microsoft's OEM contracts. The best that could be hoped for is an open contract system where Microsoft can't order Compaq not to ship Netscape or OpenOffice. There's nothing preventing them (at this point) from using their OS as a distribution channel for web browsers and 'middleware' (like the .NET runtime).

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[GregWebb]

First off, I'm not an 'open source everything' person, as anyone who recognises me will know. And no, I'm not bigheaded enough to believe that more than a handful will recognise me, especially as I've recently changed signatures :-)

Anyway. By definition, an effective conduct remedy requires oversight. Telling them to play nice without checking they do is a total waste of time. Bush & Co don't want to break up but can't realistically do nothing, so they're overseeing.

Forcing open APIs, protocols and file formats is all well and good - but you need to check that they're accurate. Which means that someone needs to be able to get at the source and confirm that they're telling the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth.

If that's the case then, every time some new release is made then someone has to read the source, read the documentation and confirm that they're the same. This isn't going to be quick or simple. It requires a reasonable number of pretty well qualified staff to be employed by the US government, and it may well delay releases while they read and work with the source. It clearly slows Microsoft's business and so potentially harms their freedom to react, compete and innovate, while it's expensive for the government.

By far the simpler solution is to require the source to be open. Not necessarily under a modifiable license, read only would be fine. But, force the source to be visible and the compiler to be declared and available, and you can check all you want quickly, simply and easily. Compile the source, compare binaries...

I know it's going to be harder to get the information out from straight source than from documentation, so maybe more has to come out too. But that would seem the sensible baseline to work from. In terms of effectiveness and size of government involvement, it would seem to fit what the current US government would want.

Even if it has Microsoft sponsoring IOCC as a recruitment challenge ;-)

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[davkat]

You cat read ms word files use catdoc

catdoc(1)

NAME
catdoc - reads MS-Word file and puts its content
as plain text on standard output

Re:Other possible remedies that would work

[ClosedSource]

"Document all future API's, protocols, and file formats as well"

I think the courts may have a problem with imposing penalties that are open-ended like this. If MS lost their monopoly, this could be considered an anticompetitive solution in the long term.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[Amazing Quantum Man]

Nah. MS said that if they (Corporate America) didn't support MS, they'd have their licenses audited!

Oh, and back on topic... The whole licensing thing is an example of how MS being a monopoly is hurting consumers, not just competitors.

That's great. But they'll get the trust back.

[Rosonowski]

According to section 107 of the Security Systems Standards And Certification act, Microsoft (as the the most likely company to make the software to support the law) will have their good old monopoly like stranglehold on the market. It is unfortunate, but with the "Take any of my rights, just protect me!" attidtude inspired by recent events, this law has a pretty good shot at making it through if people don't say something about.

MS holds back advancement

[cnelzie]

About a year and a half ago, I read a piece regarding Intel's soon to be launched 64-bit processor. An Intel engineer/marketing person(?) said that they were simply waiting for Microsoft to launch their Win64 Operating System.

At the time, the Linux kernel and at least a few other operating systems were ready to go on the new IA-64 processor. Unfortunately, it didn't get launched. I believe that if Intel had launched the CPU then many of us would be posting to Slashdot with a 64-bit Linux/*BSD or other OS. As quick as possible Microsoft would then have released their Win64! product, which would have been buggy and filled with BSODs. After a few months patches would be released and things would begin to stabilize.

Instead, we are still here sitting on our 32-bit systems waiting for the day when we can have true 64-bit power for our desktops. I for one, would love to see the 3D worlds that could be created with such a system. The amount of RAM that could be supported, the hard drive sizes and the impressive speed at which 3D renderings could be done would be beyond impressive.

So, is Microsoft hurting the consumer? You could say that. I am a consumer, I would love to have my hands on an Intel IA-64 or an AMD Sledgehammer processor. In a way Microsoft is hurting me by keeping the 64-bit technology outside of my grasp. Of course, I could buy a "Developer's" workstation, only thing is, I don't have that kind of money.

Then there is the idea of choice. I should be able to choose which components I want to run on the operating system I run. Of course, this option should be a choice available for power users. What if I want to rid my system of using Explorer for file management? What if I wanted to completly remove Internet Explorer? There are to many What-if's to put in here. Suffice to say, if Windows had more customizable features/services, similiar to Linux many people would be happier with the OS.

--
.sig seperator
--

You miss the point.

[neo]

Microsoft's integration on the OS level is just being used to leverage an advantage. Applauding their supposed innovation ingores the obvious problems of single providers. Let's take music as an example.

If we assumed that Microsoft would integrate music into their OS, then no other company would be foolish enough to create a music solution. It would crash and burn before the might of Microsoft. (There is the possibility that many companies might attempt to be bought out by Microsoft... but this is a different issue.)

Now with only Microsoft as a provider, we are hindered by one development path. No one will innovate because there is no profit in innovation if Microsoft can simply copy what you have with an army of programmers.

The end result is a single attempt at a solution where everyone must use Microsofts results regardless of merit.

Contrast this to a system where the OS level is simply a layer and a music solution could be created by anyone and you see quickly that competition would give a better result. With many developers taking risks for the possiblity of profit, variety results in a better population of products. Eventually a winner emerges. Nothing had to change in the OS to make this happen... it's already in place with a seperation of OS and applications.

Integration could easily be made possible for all developers, but this bites into Microsofts profits. They wont open integration to other developers because it's a huge advantage for their own products.

I hope this explains it well enough.

Re:You miss the point.

[treellama]

This doesn't just apply to Microsoft. I worry that apple is moving in the same direction with iTunes and iDVD and all that. Just as WMP hurts Real, Disc Burner/Disk Copy in OS X 10.1 hurts Roxio. Of course, Apple isn't as huge as Microsoft, but they have a monopoly on Macs!

I think things that aren't part of the OS (media players, web browsers, instant messengers) should not ship with the default install. Fine to make them free, just include them on a separate CD or custom install, just something so the user consciously has to decide which product he wants to install and use.

But maybe I've been using netbsd too much.

Re:You miss the point.

[compugeek007]

I agree - you are right on the money. I feel your statements of "Simple OS Layer" and Microsoft opening integration are indirect cries for MS to FINALLY open source on its kernal(s).

Imagine, what a cheap cost effective way for the goevernment to hand down punishment - instead of breaking up a company, or executing oversight committees - just say "open your source for windows by Friday" and shut the door on them.

If Microsoft was worth its brass in development engineering, they would want open source kernals for Windows, so then everyone would have a platform to run their truly advanced software that integrates into Windows that makes it so unique and special - software like A MP3 player!! and A WEB BROWESER (oohhhh!!) oh wait A LOG IN WITH PICTURES!!!!

Of course, MS could just be 95% marketing and 5% actual innovation..

--cgeek--

Re:You miss the point.

[dillon_rinker]

By "open source" I assume you mean that all customers who purchased a license to execute their binaries would also have the right to view all source code for all binaries, and Microsoft would be obligated to distribute that source with the binaries, as well as make available for a nominal charge a compiler which would produce the provided binaries from the provided source.

When MS says that revealing their source reveals their trade secrets, they're lying - all the secrets are right their in the binaries.

Re:You miss the point.

[MrBogus]

For years, Apple has been ripped by 3rd party developers whenever they tried to release software that advanced their platform. "Waa! How can I sell my Asswriter shareware when MacWrite is free! Wah!"

It looks like Jobs finally looked over the fence at the Windows world, where Microsoft competes with almost everyone and they still all write software for Windows.

As others have pointed out Roxio essentially sells device drivers. They're doomed no matter what (PC OEMs don't want to pay the Roxio tax any more than Apple does.)

A much better example is Final Cut Pro which competes directly with Adobe Premiere. Apple realized if they were going to stay promienant in that particular submarket, they were going to have to be proactive and not sit on thier hands and let a cross-platform 3rd party product do the heavy lifting. The result is that Final Cut has sold more Macs than Premiere ever did.

Re:You miss the point.

[Vonatar]

As others have pointed out Roxio essentially sells device drivers. They're doomed no matter what (PC OEMs don't want to pay the Roxio tax any more than Apple does.)

Didn't Microsoft license Roxio's software for Windows XP cd-writing?

Re:You miss the point.

[MrBogus]

I think it was a deal comparable to MS's licencing of ScanDisk and Defrag for DOS 6.0 -- Roxio got peanuts, but it was better than nothing.

Note that Adaptec was smart, saw the writing on the wall a couple years ago, and spun Roxio off as a seperate company so that they could quietly die.

Re:You miss the point.

[Trejus]

No one will innovate because there is no profit in innovation if Microsoft can simply copy what you have with an army of programmers.

Yeah, by that logic Mircosoft would never innovate cuz a larger army of Open Source coders would simply copy thier enhancements. oh wait....

Re:You miss the point.

[dheeraj]

I worry that apple is moving in the same direction with iTunes and iDVD and all that. Just as WMP hurts Real, Disc Burner/Disk Copy in OS X 10.1 hurts Roxio.

Except that Apple seems to be taking special care not to allow their built-in burning options be too capable. Toast can write lots more CD formats, makes CD copying a trivial task, and (from my experience) seems to operate faster. I'm quite sure Apple could incorporate all of Toast's functionality, but they chose instead to be good citizens.

iTunes, on the other hand -- you may be on to something there.

iDVD -- who, really, was the competition in the first place for a consumer-oriented DVD authoring package?

You and I may not need all the extra cruft that comes with OS's, but Joe Sixpack isn't likely to know how to, or want to, go out of his way to download the stuff he needs. And being a user of both OS X and Windows XP, I see a lot less cruft (and more useful stuff, like Apache and Sendmail) included in OS X.

Re:You miss the point.

[Fesh]

When MS says that revealing their source reveals their trade secrets, they're lying - all the secrets are right their in the binaries.

Except that the copyrighted work, their source code, is protected by an encryption system known as "compiling"...

Supremes: The Facts Stay Solid

[eschasi]

One of the most critical items here is that the Supreme Court `without comment or dissent' declined to overturn Judge Jacksons findings of fact that MS is a monopoly and acts in anticompetetive ways.

This is important, people!

It means that the last door on this ruling has now closed for good (well, as much as anything closes for good in the legal system). That opens up two critical items.

First, the case that is now before the new judge is no longer contaminated by any doubt about the facts. MS, which might have been taking a delaying tactic in hopes of still getting the facts overturned, has lost that hope. That doesn't mean they won't delay as much as possible, but it does mean that they're now limited. As long as there was a possibility of overturning the findings of facts, they could spin delays to their hearts content. If a settlement was imposed, an injunction would almost certianly have been granted while the findings of fact were still in question. That finding is no longer in legitimate question, so that avenue is gone.

Second, and probably more important in the long term, the solidification of the findings of fact opens the door for damage suits against MS. IMHO it was not a co-incidence that MS settled with DR shortly after the initial finding. But there are many more suits pending, and some of the plaintiffs have no reason to hold back.

Re:Supremes: The Facts Stay Solid

[sheldon]

"It means that the last door on this ruling has now closed for good"

No it doesn't. It means the Supreme Court feels at this time that the Appeals court is properly handling the case and they are going to let them continue.

If the situation changes, if the Appeals court comes down with some ruling, whatever. Microsoft can appeal to the Supreme Court again.

Re:Supremes: The Facts Stay Solid

[mattdm]

If the situation changes, if the Appeals court comes down with some ruling, whatever. Microsoft can appeal to the Supreme Court again.

On a new ruling, sure. But not on the findings of fact, which is what the post you're replying to was talking about.

Re:Supremes: The Facts Stay Solid

[terrymr]

No it means the findings of fact have been appealed to the highest court in the land and upheld there will be no further appeal on the findings of fact.

There may be an appeal against the remedy ordered by the court but only an idiot would leave that in the judges hands right now - microsofts best hope is to start talking seriously about a settlement before the court imposes a remedy on them.

Re:Supremes: The Facts Stay Solid

[sheldon]

No it doesn't.

Until the SCOTUS has actually heard a case and issued an opinion, you cannot assume to know what they are thinking.

This refusal to hear a case means absolutely nothing at this time.

Re:Supremes: The Facts Stay Solid

[Jason Earl]

Yes, assuming, of course, that Microsoft can talk the Supreme Court into listening to their case later. It also means that the current judge can go ahead with the penalty phase of the trial. That's a big deal. Microsoft has been prancing around pretending that nothing was going to happen, and now it will.

They might be able to get the Supreme court to reverse the decision later, but by the time that happens they will already be under sentence. Then delays and stalling tactics will work in favor of the DOJ. And once again, it assumes that the Supreme Court might be interested in hearing the case in the future. There is a very good chance they won't ever be interested.

Microsoft is rapidly running out of escape avenues, and the Findings of Fact still stand.

Re:Supremes: The Facts Stay Solid

[SurfsUp]

This refusal to hear a case means absolutely nothing at this time.

You'd like to believe that, wouldn't you? It means your whole "Mommy! He called me names!" defense goes out the window.

Huh?

[Raul Acevedo]

Err, as far as I can tell, all Microsoft is doing is pissing off customers. Some are even considering leaving the Microsoft desktop...

Re:Huh?

[kindbud]

Nice one, good link. Mod up the parent.

"You're constantly looking for a balance, of how you're balancing the complexity and the simplicity in the time we need," he (Microsoft spokesman Dan Leach ) said. "The fact so many customers are showing up, at least in this survey, having concerns or confusion shows just in part how complicated it has become. That's one reason we're trying to make the program simpler, easier to understand and easier to administer."

Well let's see, in the case of RedHat, you go down to the local CDROM store, buy a single copy, and install it at your leisure on as many machines as you care to. When it makes sense to do so, upgrade.

How complicated does it need to be? You're buying software, not aerobraking into Mars orbit.

Re:Huh?

[The Milky Bar Kid]

Err, as far as I can tell, all Microsoft is doing is pissing off customers [cnet.com]. Some are even considering leaving the Microsoft desktop...

I love this bit...

But in recent years, companies have been upgrading less frequently, compelling Microsoft to adjust its licensing program accordingly.

Oh - people don't want to buy our new software. How about we include genuine innovation and enhancement, so people are interested in buying it? Nah, let's just make the licences even more restricitve, turn out the same old crap, and then wonder why people don't like us. I wonder if they have a sign up in the coding department: "The beatings will continue until morale improves...."

Europe, too

[Mdog]

Lest we forget the European union. They could also greatly change things.

"no comment"?

[sparkane]

What does it mean that the SC didn't comment?

They believe their decision is practically self-evident, requiring no comment?

They don't want to get into this can-o-worms?

Other?

Re:"no comment"?

[underwhelm]

IIRC, most cases appealed to the SC are denied cert without comment. Their action "speaks for itself" in that there's little to infer from it.

Settlement?!?

[gehrehmee]

IANAL, but from the occasional TV drivel I've caught, I've picked up on one important part of legal stratagy:

Settlments have a place before the ruling, right? I mean... The DOJ won, that's just been re-re-clarified again (redundancy intended). When a party is found guilty, what would possibly possess the prosecution to settle for a lower penalty? If Microsoft DOES end up with a slap on the wrist, it's going the be the definitive large scale failure of a "blind" justice system.

As Solid as NT

[da5idnetlimit.com]

Could you please repeat that one ?

1 /NT is not "solid"
NT only has so many patches you could remove the OS and the patchs will hold the machine running.

2 / Multiple login exists since Win3.11 (sigh, best MS OS ever 8)

3 / Linux isn't meant to be easy to use. It is meant to be set up and forgot for a few years (or until HDD suicides)and still work the same.

To mix different supposition you approched, may I remind you that the longuest standing NT station lasts for 180 jours before self collapsing (a server with Nt on it, no connections, wait 6 month and it dies of sheer boredom 8)

4 / Firewalling the Nics. Ohh, you mean hiding the Mac Adress? Gosh, what will they invent next.

XP IS a great backdoor to my HDD, a very good introduction to .NET and the best way Bill has to F*$k a few billion people at the same time (so maybe next version will be called "PendOver" or "MS Gang with a Bang" 8p )

Yes I want to play MP3 and No I don't want to use Media Player
Yes I want to play DivX and No, I don't want WMP to tell me about bad (unofficial) codec, or lose sound synchro)
Yes I want to still use my PII 350. So I stick to 98 and wait for a driver for my M3309 DvD card under Linux.

Then I will swat 98 and be a happy Linuxer !

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[AndyChrist]

If investors are that stupid, maybe they don't DESERVE to have a strong market.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[Flower]

Ummm, no. People lost faith in the tech stocks because investors and dotcoms made rock stupid decisions. Hell, even Steve Ballmer stated that MS' stock price was overvalued during its height. Sorry, but MS ain't the world and your analysis of the situation is so vacuous and simplistic that it is completely without merit.

And why don't you ask laid off tech workers why management thought everybody in the company, including the janitor, required a cell phone and Palm? Or how about companies with no business model? Or how about "Oh yeah, we're a computer manufacturer but we're special because we install linux on our machines." Yeah, that's going to save them from the razor-thin profit margins that plague all the other well established big names out there. But it certainly didn't stop investors from pushing the IPO price up so high that it would take 20 years of growth before shareholders saw a return.

But, of course, because investors created a new vocabulary and started using buzzwords like "eyeballs" to explain the vaulted "New Economy" every insane investment they threw money at was going to make people rich. 150 years of economic history and lessons (tulips anyone?) could be thrown out the window because this new industry is digital.

But of course you are right, MS is just so big (bigger than IBM even! Not.) that picking on them is just going to throw the market into chaos.

Please. Get a refund on your next version of Office and go buy a clue.

This is very important news.

[stonewolf]

Microsoft has lost their last hope of delaying a judgement. They have, with out a doubt, been convicted of being a destructive monopoly.

This means they have no choice but to play nice with the current judge. If they try the kind of tricks they used in the trial Bill could wind up in jail. This also means that in any future suit filed against Microsoft they will go into court with Microsoft having to prove they weren't doing any of the things they did to get convicted the first time. This puts Microsoft at a HUGE disadvantage in court.

This leads to the possibility that Microsoft will be placed under judicial supervision to ensure they do not repeat any of their crimes. How would you like it if Microsoft was forced to release complete details of all interfaces and be forced to make all net interface definitions public for 6 months before they could release an product that implements them? Happened to the US phone companies. It could happen to Microsoft.

Don't underestimate the importance of this ruling.

Stonewolf

Re:This is very important news.

[Chris Johnson]

Oh, but they won't (play nice). You are assuming that they, viewed as a 'corporate personality', are rational. They're not playing it like a court case, they're playing it like a crusade. What would you have said the odds were that they would fabricate evidence in court with so much at stake? And yet they did. Are you suggesting they will change?

What I'm wondering is: given that Microsoft will almost certainly do something just as outrageous in the new court, will this present a problem for the new judge? It's almost as if they are intentionally behaving so outrageously that no judge could fail to be deeply offended- and then expecting to use the offended judge as an argument for their innocence. Though that would be a rational ploy, just a very cynical one- and I think that Microsoft actually means well, but is completely insane and to THEM, faking video evidence (thank you, David Boies) is 'higher truth' because the real truth is whatever they want it to be.

Which means it's pointless to look for signs of cynicism from the Microsoft camp- indeed, they are doing all this 'in good faith'- and instead, the thing to do is keep an eye out for fits of insanity, and 'truths' that are wildly irrational and psychotic. And I think we'll be seeing more of those.

Hell, if _I_ was trying to defend them I'd cop an insanity plea at this point. *G* for me, not for them! ;)

Re:This is very important news.

[stonewolf]

Oh! I agree with you. Microsoft is insane. They will not play nice. They will piss off the judge. This judge will stay quiet and nail Microsoft to the wall.

I've been told by Microsofties during business meetings that if they don't get what they want in court they will move the company so they can ignore the ruling. This is of course insane. Even if they are not inside the US they sell in the US and they could be barred from selling in the US if they ignore the court.

Stonewolf

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[jayhawk88]

Believe it or not, many companies were very successful at business years before Microsoft was created.

Yes, an industry leader having their stock tank can pull down the rest of their industry, but that's not what happened here (at least not fully). For the better part of the 90's, companies with shaky business plans and few revenue opportunities fooled Wall Street into thinking they were good deals, with the help of a lot of Internet buzzwords. Eventually, Wall Street got wise, though, and the market fell as a result.

The market does not rise and fall on the whims of one company, no matter how powerful it is. Joe Techie isn't out of work because the DOJ has a mad-on with MS; he's out of work because the economy is experiencing a downturn after 10+ years of growth.

Microsoft's Claws

[daitengu]

Looks like Microsoft has their claws tightened around Yahoo's throat too... the Reuters link is here

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[gorilla]

I think that a part of the problem is delayed effects from Y2k. A lot of companies threw out perfectly good equipment and replaced it with new stuff because of Y2k concerns. The whole supply chain grew because of this, and had to collapse when demand fell to lower than normal levels.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[jazman_777]

Dang, FatRatBastard, you are being downright subsersive by advocating the free market! I mean, don't we all know that central planning and socialism are the wave of the future? And that companies like Microsoft prove that the free market doesn't always work? And that some elite government bureaucrat, whose favorite color is gray, should reign in the folly of those stupid unwashed mass of users?

MS != the market...

[Svartalf]

This has NOTHING to do with MS' stock falling.

It has everything to do with the loss in confidence in the dot-bombs, which then led to a loss in confidence in the tech stocks. Please take note: Most of the technology infrastructure of the world, let alone of this country doesn't run on MS products- it runs on things like Unix/Linux, OS/MVS. OS/400, etc. Funny that most of the tech stocks have more to do with that stuff than MS.

Hopefully the new judge is more intelligent.

[IamLarryboy]

Ya lets hope s/he is as smart as Slashdot.

Re:Hopefully the new judge is more intelligent.

[Happy Monkey]

I know a former judge who knows her. He seems hopeful.

Re:Hopefully the new judge is more intelligent.

[The Milky Bar Kid]

Ya lets hope s/he is as smart as Slashdot.

I can just hear the trial proceedings now..
Judge: You may cross-examine the witness.
Defence Lawyer: So, how important is innovation to Windows XP?
Bill: Innovation is very important...
Prosecution Lawyer: Objection - Troll!
Judge: Sustained. The jury is instructed to mod that comment down.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[Prior Restraint]

The whole supply chain grew because of [Y2k], and had to collapse when demand fell to lower than normal levels.

Indeed. I've never seen so many consultants warming the bench as I have this year.

Educate the masses

[kin_korn_karn]

The problem is that the majority of the world, i.e. your grandma with her new Compaq, don't see why Microsoft having a monopoly is a big deal. They DON'T CARE about what OS is on their PC, as long as it runs and emails their photos of their grandchildren and does their taxes without having to pay an accountant. Windows does that, so they're happy.

I'd go so far to say that, to them, competition in OSes is a BAD thing, because they might have to learn something different. In general, people hate to learn, as all of you tech support and TA folks know.

Let me emphasize this: We, meaning power users and geeks, are the ONLY people who care about this!!!

Until the rest of the world knows a) what an OS is and b) why it's good to have more of them, will the M$ case mean anything. Until then it's a political liability for the feds, as they risk a populist backlash because "they made the computer harder to use".

- Josh

Re:Educate the masses

[Ozric]

Then it is our job to make the world safe for our
children. I hate to say it but you grandmums time it past. Just because the uninformed don't
see the problems here, does not make it ok. This is a REPUBLIC not a DEMOCRACY. We live by the rule of LAW. And the LAW is what MSFT has broken and must be held accountable for.

Re:Educate the masses

[kin_korn_karn]

Do I appear to be taking MSFT's side? I'm certainly not. But don't overestimate the effect this will have on the consumer computing public. On the whole it will have very little. My parents are still chugging by with their original Win98 install on their cheap gateway that they bought for mailing pictures around and surfing the web. They don't care if they have a state-of-the-art OS, as long as it does what they want. They don't play with BIOS settings and OS tweaks for fun.

The bright spot is that corporate IT also understand what the MSFT case means, and it helps them. They're the ones that really drive the PC market, so it's overall a good thing.

- Josh

But SSSCA and W3C RAND are waiting in the wings

[dpilot]

No matter what the Supremes may say, SSSCA and W3C RAND have the essential effect of cementing Microsoft's monopoly and removing the only effective competition the marketplace has produced in the past 5 years.

Re:Nigga please.

[Znork]

So throw together a class action lawsuit against the Microsoft execs and lawyers who knowingly broke the law repeatedly, and the stock analysts who reccomended that people buy into a company they knew were engaged in illegal practices. Microsofts violations arent exactly news, nor would they take anyone with an inkling of knowledge about antitrust law by surprise, at least since the early to mid 90's.

Yes, the fall of a company engaging in illegal practices can have an effect on the stockmarket if it is large enough. However, this is a flaw in the company itself, and their SEC filings should probably contain "Since we are violating the law left and right and lying in court, our future ability to sustain profit levels through illegal practices may be hampered by the application of law".

Re:Nigga please.

[FatRatBastard]

Oh that's right. I didn't.

Neither did I but...

But to sit here and deny that this case has had a horrible effect on the economy of this country is short-sighted and ludicrous

isn't true either. One company does not have that much sway on an entire industry. Had no action been leveled at Microsoft we'd still be looking at the same market conditions now.

Again, how did this action against Microsoft case the Telecom industry to go into the toilet? How would have NOT doing anything to MS keep all of those unprofitable dot-coms afloat?

Where did he say that?

[Juju]

I think you should re-read the previous posting.
He clearly said that many people think going after Microsoft is not so wise considering the situation of the tech market...

People like Dell and HP hope that Microsoft will get XP out ASAP. They hope that it's increased demand on memory and CPU will force people to buy new PCs. They are more worried about their income now, than about the restriction Microsoft was putting on OEMs.

You could also say that the US citizens are worried about penalysing one of the most successful US companies.

Re:Where did he say that?

[FatRatBastard]

Please learn something about how the market works. When MS's stock first fell after they were threatened with a possible breakup, the market began to fall. Each blow against MS was a blow against the tech market as a whole. When people lost faith in MS stock they lost faith in the tech stocks. As the tech stocks fell so did the rest of the market as people begin to panic.

Was the orig post. The insinuation was that "each blow" to MS caused more damage to the tech stocks than the general state of the industry, which is complete bullshit. As I said before, a small company with good fundamentals may have their stock price influenced by a bellweather in the industry, but if its a sound company it will NOT go under. Regardless of what was done to MS (and I'm not arguing that what was done was good or bad) the tech market would still be in the crapper today. The action against MS did not have that much effect on the tech market as a whole (remember, just 3 years ago we were reading a lot of articles by analysts saying MS were dinosaurs...)

Re:Where did he say that?

[ilikedonuts]

People like Dell and HP hope that Microsoft will get XP out ASAP. They hope that it's increased demand on memory and CPU will force people to buy new PCs. They are more worried about their income now, than about the restriction Microsoft was putting on OEMs.


Hello trees, where's the forest?

If Microsoft wasn't a monopolist, then maybe there would be more innovation in the PC Market, which would maybe create an environment where PCs aren't a commodity. Maybe not. Its a commodity business and their relentless price cutting as the predominant marketing mechanism has brought them to this point. This is why there are anti-monopoly laws- because while in short run they can be beneficial, over the long run they damage the tenets of a free-market economy.

But beyond all that, who cares whether people WANT the federal courts to lay off of Microsoft because the economy. Are they any less rule breakers because we're in a recession. We have a government that separates the judicial branch for expressly the purpose of not caving in to popular opinion. The judicial branch doesn't get to make the laws, they only get to rule on them. Congress gets to make laws but doesn't get to decide their enforceability.

Finally recession was more likely caused by factors more related to the tech market upswing than its downfall. Rising wages and overspending by consumers are likely to cause significant inflation. Since the Fed is heavily concerned with reducing inflationary tendencies it raised interest rates in an attempt to slow down spending and investment (interest rates on credit cards go up and the cost of capital for corporate investment increases). This causes the economy to slow its expansion- slow the expansion too much and it can actually reverse and cause a rapid contraction. Consumer spending falters, business cut costs, etc.

Or maybe the entire economy really is tethered to the Nasdaq.

Re:Where did he say that?

[oliphaunt]

You could also say that the US citizens are worried about penalysing one of the most successful US companies.

You could say that, but you'd sound like an idiot. What Americans are currently worried about is Islamic militants blowing things up
in another public place. People also seem to be pretty worried about getting on a plane.

It is a real stretch for you to suggest that the American people as a whole feel the need to protect Bill's ability to pull down another cool couple of billion dollars by foisting off another crappy product, and then using strongarm tactics to force its adoption.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[Greyfox]

Mmm. In the rapid growth with those clueless dotcoms, a lot of developers were rapidly promoted to high level management positions. Many of them could not manage their way out of a paper bag -- I experienced that at the last company I worked for and a co-worker tells a similar tale after having been laid off from Exodus (I've got $20. We should stage a /. hostile takeover of Exodus...)

It's going to be more of the same until we put a muzzle on Microsoft AND the Entertainment industry which is now in bed with them.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[NDPTAL85]

Well, actually it is progress and correctness.

so how much longer will this go on?

[Rai]

they have been found guilty. their appeal has been denied. where's the penalty already? or will post-trial debates continue for another decade while microsoft continues to release software that secures their monopoly. btw, how's XP sales doing?

NY Times Article

[cbowland]

The New York Times - no registration needed

How much do you get paid by M$ to post this crap?

[Petronius]

I have found myself using most of the features in XP

which ones? CTRL-ALT-DEL?

Troll you are!

Re:Nigga please.

[ichimunki]

This case has almost nothing to do with the economy of this country (assuming you mean the USA). Tech stocks as an equity sector may have felt some hit as confidence in all tech stocks waivered-- but consider that many newer companies were flying high on promises and failed to deliver the results, also consider that major chip makers and other manufacturers reported decreases in earnings completely unrelated to the government action against Microsoft.

Then finally consider that the equities market is only an aspect of the economy, which is heavily affected by foreign trade, currency inflation, government debt, personal debt, shopping habits, and a hundred other things. And you want to say that the Microsoft case overwhelms all these other factors in importance? Half the people in this country don't even own computers or use them that regularly (see http://www.epf.org/forecasts/2001/tf20010111.pdf)! Yet a single computer software company is driving the economy? I doubt it. Much more likely that companies like food goods, automotives, banks, petroleum products and the like are driving the economy. The price of energy and health care are more likely to cause ripple effects than the price of Microsoft stock or software.

But I wouldn't expect a 20 year old college sophomore CSci student to understand a complex system like the economy. :)

Great News!

[small_dick]

Although I have always disliked MS for it's illegal business practices, there are far bigger reasons why this is especially important in this decade.

In the next few years, the basic methods used to pipe IP around and assuure digital rights will be implemented and deployed.

I have to admit, I am one of those crazy people who hoped that the internet would create a much more sane way of producing and distributing media, one that would eventually weaken the major corps that currently control the audio and video space (bertelsmann, vivendi, etc.)

Yet dominance of a single entity in software infrastructure makes it (structurally) easy for other monopolies to join in or meld with that infrastructure.

The idea of BMG and Microsoft teaming up on digital rights, with no competition, is an unpleasant thought. Regualr consumers, artists, midlevel producers, alternative producers...all left in the cold unless they want to play with (and pay) this media giant.

The court decision opens the door to serious conduct remedies, including "fast track" government/legal action (without a trial) when future complaints are made.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[Sloppy]

If nothing else, there is a current wave of feeling in the business community (at least if I read all the executives I know correctly) that breaking up Microsoft or imposing stiff penalties on them is innapropriate because it would hurt the already weakened economy.

People are stupid. Lots of people think that more jobs, more spending, etc == good for economy, regardless of whether it's real production, or waste. I guess these people will be happy with the consequences of the WTC destruction, hurricanes, etc. since there will be so many construction jobs and immense amounts of money moving around. Likewise, they would think the introduction of Mr Fusion would be an economic disaster.

Microsoft operations == destruction of capital. Nothing useful ever comes of it.

Remedy Announced Today

[Queer Boy]

REUTERS

After the rejection of Microsoft's appeal in the historic antitrust trial, the case was sent back to lower courts for rememdy solutions. Lower court judge Bete Shitekopf brought down the heavy hand of the law. "I decided after much deliberation and consultation that the only fair thing to do would be to force Microsoft to give away copies of Windows XP and Office XP to anyone who wanted one. This clearly is the only solution to help consumers hurt by this monopoly."

Itanium is available now

[Animats]

You can buy an Itanium workstation right now from Dell. You can run a beta version of Windows XP, or several versions of Linux. Also, Windows NT ran on 64-bit systems years ago. Remember the DEC Alpha? That used to be supported. There's no "innovation" issue with the OS.

I'm not an Itanium fan, because very long instruction word machines require a near-omniscient optimizing compiler to find enough concurrency in the code to keep the hardware busy. (Smart people are, at this moment, beating their heads against the wall on that problem. Assuming, of course, that the HP compiler team didn't get laid off.) Respected CPU architecture designers have looked at the thing and groaned. It's viewed as a move by Intel to move the industry from an open CPU architecture to a proprietary one over which Intel has a monopoly. Intel has enough patents on the Itanium to prevent cloning. The architecture is so wierd that it requires lots of new inventions to make it work, so Intel can get strong intellectual property rights by going this route. (By comparison, the AMD Sledgehammer 64-bit architecture is a straightforward extension of IA-32, minus some of the cruft.)

But if you want an Itanium machine, you can get one. Although, unusually for Dell, the Dell product page doesn't mention price or have a "Buy" button, so Dell isn't serious about selling it.

Re:Itanium is available now

[cnelzie]

I am aware that NT had run on the Alpha processor. However, Windows was never designed to be an easily ported OS. Linux and several other operating systems, have been designed to be easily ported to other architectures and thus would have easily adapted to the newer 64-bit technologies.

Yes, there is an "innovation" issue with the Windows OS. The paper that I read mentioned that Intel was WAITING for Microsoft to be ready because they were having trouble with getting a Win64 OS to function. If Windows had been developed to be a portable OS, then we would, more than likely, be using 64-bit machines today and would be able to buy those from everywhere.

I am also aware that I can run the beta XP on the IA-64 and several versions of Linux. However, the price is way outside of my range, as I mentioned above.

--
.sig seperator
--

Re:Itanium is available now

[MrBogus]

If you weren't talking out of your goatse, you would know that Windows NT *was* designed to be an easily ported OS, at least to 32-bit CPUs.

Read any account of the development of the OS -- originally it wasn't even supposed to run on i386, and Microsoft like many others thought that x86 wouldn't scale, and wanted to get a RISC-compatible product on the market. (This was a huge problem with OS/2 and it's mass of x86 asm.)

As to the difficulty of Win64, nobody really knows. Microsoft did talk about shipping a 64-bit Alpha NT4 port back in 97-98. Whether they could have is buried in Axis (MS - Intel - DEC - Compaq) poltics. Other than that, Win64 is pretty much tied market-wise to IA64, both of which just shipped.

(Intel's problems with Itanic have been well documented -- they certain weren't waiting for MS. In fact they seem to be expecting Linux to carry the water in that market, at least at first.)

Re:Itanium is available now

[Animats]

f you weren't talking out of your goatse, you would know that Windows NT *was* designed to be an easily ported OS, at least to 32-bit CPUs.

NT was origiinally developed on MIPS machines. NT originally supported MIPS, Alpha, Intel 386 (IA-32), and PowerPC. Over time, all the non-Intel architectures were dropped. So was Dave Cutler, who architected NT and directed the project through NT 3.51.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[Petrol]

The very foundation of your argument is faulty.

An open and fair market is what capitalism is based on. Only through competition can we determine what the appropriate price of any good or service should be; it's called "Fair market value" and assume a free and open market.

If you do not have thriving competition, you do not know what the price should be. MS holds 92% of the market, their prices are not determined by a frre and open market, but rather by what the company feels they can charge without causing undue attention... rest assured their prices will creep up slowly enough to not create too much alarm and rest assured the 'dictate' the price.

Take as an example the 'niche market' of Linux. Look at the varying prices between distros. $30-$40 for a basic distro, $70 for some bells and whistles, $110 for a complete package... I can think of 4 different distros off the top of my head. *This* is a free and open market.

Prices for these essentially identical products are detrmined by what the seller can get in a competitive market, not by dictate.

If the price of Windows (TM) changes, it is because MS feels like it, not because they feel competitve pressure, or need to raise it.

Nope - OEMs are the key

[throx]

I think things that aren't part of the OS (media players, web browsers, instant messengers) should not ship with the default install.

I think Microsoft should be pretty much allowed to ship what they like with the retail box version of Windows. It's the OEM licenses that are the key, and ANY application should be permitted to be removed from the default lineup if the OEM desires.

That simple effect removes any ability for Microsoft to push their own apps on their monopoly platform and forces them to compete with other application retailers for OEM shippings.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[Dave_bsr]

#if_unsaid // to avoid repeating the things someone else already said
#say:

MS products are more expensive than linux. MS products are more commonly used than linux, especially proprietary office/etc. MS is raising prices and pushing for its winXP to get out, to make it the de facto standard, to again force people to buy the "standard".

We know that MS products are more user-friendly but less functional than Linux to Person Off_the_street. i.e. they look pretty and stuff are easy to navigate, but only because we are used to them perhaps? Linux stuff is stable, robust,and cheap. why not choose it? Compatibility. If enough people push another standard, then ground can be made, perhaps.

MS is obviously doing what any semi-intelligent company would do in its position. et on top, and fight-to-kill all challengers. That is the point. Survival. Real just wants money, too. Neither company really cares about consumers. Real isn't perfect either...remember the privacy issue? Consumerism is like voting, you have to deal with the decisions of others. If big companies choose MS over better solutions, that is their stupidity. If MS really benefits the customer, then so be it, everyone who chooses Microsoft will benefit.

For myself, I'll use some of both, to suit my needs, while paying a minimum because of my small, non-business budget. What has MS done, really, to hurt consumers? Provide integrated tools that eliminate the need for other software. This is beneficial, in a way...free instead of paid-for. However, it eliminates something very important to a free market economy: freedom. Eventually, when there is no choice but MS, it can start charging for these "free" integrations, like IE and WMP and TCP/IP, for that matter, which I hear used to cost money to use (I'm only 19 now...). At that point, MS will be such a standard that there will be no competition, and so integrated that it cannot be removed from technology. That is what MS is aiming for, the ultimate for any business: to be a necessity.

I think MS has hurt consumers and needs to be punished strongly, to let the people in charge there know that this will not be tolerated. Their monopolizing efforts have hurt many companies, and can do nothing but continue to hurt everyone. MS, in a way, is already neccessary...try playing a videogame or buying a PC from a big-name company without an MSN product. But their actions can be curbed, and that is what is needed.

#endif

And why did Ballmer say that?

[Frank Sullivan]

Yes, Ballmer said Microsoft stock was overpriced. Why?

At that time, Microsoft made a significant portion of its earnings (like 10%) buying and selling Microsoft stock. When Ballmer made his announcement, the stock immediately dropped several points. Microsoft buys. A few days later, the market forgets, and its back where it was before. Microsoft sells, pocketing a hefty pile of money. Follow vaporware product announcements and other market-manipulating crap they do, and watch Microsoft make billions because they KNOW which direction their stock will go on any given day.

You were suckered, my friend.

Is this really necessary?

[David David]

While I find the content of this thread interesting, I don't see the point of evoking racial slurs in the subject line. What's up with that? Completely uncalled for, that's what.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[hacker]

MS said that if they (Corporate America) didn't support MS, they'd have their licenses audited!

Let's also not forget to thank Microsoft for helping these companies move to Linux.

I know of at least 10 large companies who have begun looking into linux for several reasons:

Microsoft forces people to audit their licensing policies.

What Microsoft wants:

1. Scare people into thinking that continuing down the path of "piracy" will get them into trouble, so they should license legally, now!
2. Heavy fines for infractions
3. More units sold for "legitimate" copies

What Microsoft doesn't quite calculate into this is that most of their desktop volume and "market share" came from pirated copies of Windows of one version or another. Do you really think everyone (or even a majority of people) actually would be running Windows, if they had to pay $249.00 per copy? If they did, Microsoft would have many more billions in it's coffers. Let's let them crack down on the piraters, and watch their dollars, market share, and volume decrease dramatically. Let's step up our development efforts in the open source space to compensate. They're helping us gain back users, let's encourage that.

What really happened:

1. Companies began auditing their own internal (legitimate) Microsoft licensing policies, and noticed the millions of dollars they spend to maintain these licensed, per-unit costs, and support contracts
2. Linux was considered due to stability, security, and cost to outweigh these heavy budget items
3. With the downturn of the economy in recent times, Linux is going to be more and more attractive, since many of these companies are not going to be moving to XP. Many of them are just moving to Windows 2000 from NT4, if at all. Using Linux saves them money where their key budgets can be better spent on keeping the company alive, not maintaining existing expensive licensing contracts.

Thank you Microsoft, for supporting the Open Source community so strongly on all fronts.

Re:YEAH!!! DOWN with the Evil Giant!!!

[dreamquick]

God i hate having to feed the trolls but...

I believe my point was that you have to have experienced the alternatives to actually understand if your product is good or bad, simply saying product X is great because of feature Y is an empty gesture because you can't appreciate why it makes product X great.

If they understood their competitors better they might be able to find a meaningful reason why their feature is better, or equally they might find that feature Y is actually crappy and really shouldn't be promoted.

But how can they be "forced" -- bounties?

[Noel]

I agree that forcing MS to open their APIs/formats/protocols is the best solution for now. But I'm a little puzzled as to how the government could force that without having to establish a complete interface oversight committee that would be heavily overworked.

One wild idea I've had, though, is to try to use the customer community as the oversight committee: establish a bounty for anyone who finds an undocumented interface being used by MS. It could work something like this:

• Someone reports the undocumented interface publically (to a web site or whatever), including the basics of how it works (code or whatever)
• Once reported, others can test and verify the existence of the undocumented interface
• Others have the opportunity to verify or refute the undocumented interface, or to point to existing documentation.
• If a given number of verifications have been received, and no one has refuted the existence or lack of documentation, the first person reporting it receives $X from MS, and everyone testing/verifying receives $Y (< $X) from MS
• If it cannot be verified, then no one receives anything
• Once it has been verified, MS get a given amount of time (say 4 weeks) to provide public documentation for the interface.
• If MS does not provide public documentation within the specified time, the discoverer and testers each get an additional increasing weekly bounty (maybe increasing exponentially, like $X*(wk^2)/8) for each week after the deadline.

I see a few advantages to this:

• The oversight committee is made up of anyone who is interested in/affected by the MS interface, rather than limited to a small pre-selected group
• The oversight is done publically, and verified publically, so it is available to anyone
• There would be no need to take MS to court for each undocumented/misdocumented interface -- the user community would effectively be the court, and would be more effective and efficient on technological matters like this than would the US court system
• MS would not be "forced" to document their products, but would be forced to pay a penalty for not documenting
• The penalty paid by MS would go directly to those who are harmed by the lack of documentation
• Even if MS refuses to document an interface, this would give the users a common place to provide unofficial documentation

• • Does this sound like it might work, or is it just silly dreaming?

Expected?

[dman123]

"It should be noted that this was expected."

No, I didn't expect them to decline to review the case. What was expected was Slashdot screwing up the headline (along with Yahoo tm and Slashdotters, aside from sheldon, claiming victory for the SC ruling correctly for once.

Count me as a troll or redundant. I don't care. At least I can read past the headline.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[walt-sjc]

We know that MS products are more user-friendly but less functional than Linux to Person Off_the_street.

True when you qualify that with "Base OS Only", but with Office software, nobody else provides all the functionality or stability of MS products. Gnumeric, Abiword, Koffice, Staroffice, netscape, mozilla, etc. ALL crash easily, and more frequently than MS office products. Basically, Linux offerings are of beta quality. Slowly they are getting better, but don't match MS yet.

I don't need the DOJ / courts to break up MS, but I would like them to force MS to open up ALL protocols and file formats, and require free licensing of MS patents related to those proprietary file formats and protocols.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[walt-sjc]

Take as an example the 'niche market' of Linux. Look at the varying prices between distros. $30-$40 for a basic distro, $70 for some bells and whistles, $110 for a complete package... I can think of 4 different distros off the top of my head. *This* is a free and open market.

True, but no Linux company has NEAR the engineering staff of MS's OS division either. They are for the most part selling what others have created and given away. Also the fact that you can download the ISO's for all the distros, makes sure that they can't charge too much if they want to sell anything at all.

Look further, and companies like Sun give the base OS away for free too (just charge for media). MS being a software company can't do that.
In this case, I think Sun was beginning to see the light and realized that if they wanted to sell overpriced hardware, they couldn't add mega bucks on for the software too or the cost / benefit would favor Windows.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[byran lei]

>neccessary...try playing a videogame or buying a PC from a big-name
>company without an MSN product. But their actions can be curbed, and
>that is what is needed.

My Playstation 2 certainly doesn't have any MSN products.

Microsoft will subvert that so easily

[jonabbey]

As long as Microsoft has any patents or copyrights that they could commingle with their products, they can fend off any obligation for true interoperability.

I.e., with Samba, they might document their protocols, but hold onto their patent for (really bad) password hashing and use that to exact licensing fees to interoperate with Microsoft servers.

Or, with Word, they can document that you need to use some kind of ActiveX technology (monikers? ActiveX ClassID's?) to do document embedding. And yes, you can be free to support this file format as long as you happen to be reading the file on a platform that supports ActiveX and the Win32 API on an IA32 Instruction Set compatible system to execute the ActiveX components needed.

There are so many ways that software can be designed and structured that Microsoft will always be able to entangle things in a way that will spoil the intent of open file formats and open protocols, and which will require massive oversight.

OT: do I know you?

[AME]

Did you ever go to school in Lyons, Oregon?

Re:OT: do I know you?

[GooberToo]

No. Houston. Sorry.

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[Sniser]

Haha, if M$ vanished, the software/OS industry would benefit and bloom. In the long run, of course. And that's what it's all about, isn't it?

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[Petrol]

My apology, I should have clarified that I was addressing the Value-add of the distrobution and support, not the actual OS. There are true free-market affects acting on those prices. Taking me as an example, as a newbie to Linux, i had a choice of several distros and i *need* the support they offer to learn how to work with the OS.

Much like others in my position. MS still has their monopoly to leverage their presence... Red Hat does not.

Re:public opinion

[maxpublic]

And something like 90% of the US public show favor for one of the most brain-dead presidents in U.S. history.

Yep, that public opinion is something special....

Max

Re:Growing tide of MS support..

[maxpublic]

Stability? Are you joking? MS Office crashes regularly and in such a great variety of ways I'm still seeing new ways for it to die, after all of these years.

I work with several hundred Win machines every day - don't tell *me* that Office is more stable than Linux-based offerings; in my experience it's quite a bit *less* stable than the Linux equivalents. And while my evidence may be anecdotal it's in complete contradiction to your statements.

Of course, if you have some empirical evidence to offer up in support of your claims....

Max

don't break up MS

[maxpublic]

I used to be a great proponent of breaking up MS, but after reviewing anti-trust action history I don't think it'd amount to a hill of beans. MS (in all of its various parts) would still go about acting as a single company, violating more laws and generating more court cases along the way. And after our last presidential election I've pretty much lost faith in the court system anyway.

Rather, I hope the U.S. government does nothing more than let MS off with a stern warning. Why? Because *Microsoft is it's own worst enemy*. Just take a look at the pricing scheme for Windows XP, the silly anti-piracy activation scheme, and the attempt to lock everyone into using certain MS-approved media formats. All of these things *piss people off*. If Microsoft thinks it can get away with this crap then it will continue to piss people off even more as time goes by.

The more people that get pissed off, the more around the fringes that dump MS and move to Linux. As the annoyances wear on this fringe gets bigger and bigger until...eventually the hundredth monkey is reached. And MS finds itself in a world of hurt as even those who've put up with it's crap for years jump ship, eroding away all but the staunchest of user bases.

Let MS do the dirty deeds. They may turn a profit in the short run, but in the long they'll do more to destroy themselves than any anti-trust action ever could. MS, like the RIAA and others, has already provent that it can't adapt; let it flail against the asteroid until it hits ground zero.

Max

Breaking up is not the answer...

[core_dump_0]

I really don't think that breaking up Microsoft is the answer. It won't do anything.

Microsoft needs to be criminally punished. A company break up into an applications and windows division is pointless, not to mention that it won't work.

I used to support Microsoft in the trial, but ever since the other guy took over for Bill Gates, they have just gone too far.

Microsoft needs to be criminally punished with fines, not break-ups.

Actually, a breakup would be best (long)

[jcast]

First look at what the Government does NOT want to do:

* Break MS up

Actually, I think this is probably the best solution, from all of: the market's POV, competitor's POV, Bill Gate's POV, and Bush's POV. However, don't break M$ up into systems and apps! Instead, force M$ to donate all existing code to the public domain (they don't have to publish it, it's just that, if you get a copy of it, you can re-distriute that.) Split M$ up into two companies, with the following restrictions:

1. M$ Patents are evenly divided between the two companies; however, each company must license the patents it receives from M$ royalty-free to the other.
2. Neither company is allowed to sue the other for use of trademarks held by M$ at the time of the breakup.
3. For the period of 5 years after the breakup, no-one is allowed to own more than, say, 80% combined of both companies. E.g., if Bill Gates owns 50% of Micros~1, he can only own 30% of Micros~2. This still allows him to own 80% of Micros~1 + Micros~2, which is almost certainly more than what he owns currently. (Other restrictions should prevent abuse if Bill Gates holds a controlling interest in both companies).
4. For the period of 5 years after the breakup, neither company is allowed more than 50% market share in any given market. However, products already marketed by M$ at the time of the breakup do not count toward this quota, for either company. Note that this restriction allows the two companies together to gain 100% market share; other restrictions will prevent abuse
5. For the period of 5 years, any IP (defined as Copyright, Patent, or Trademark) rights licensed by one company to the other, or by any heir of one company to any heir of the other, except as provided for in these terms, must be licensed royalty-free for all purposes to all third parties. This is to prevent collaboration; note, however, that each company may still inovate, and may still keep it's innovations private. Furthermore, anyone can hedge his bets by buying stock in both companies.

At the end of 5 years, the court will review the situation. If the court finds that there is a strong probability that, if these restrictions are relaxed, Micros~1 and Micros~2 will successfully return to predatory, monopolistic practices, the court will extend these sanctions for another 5 years. Repeat as needed.

-- End of Conditions --

These conditions are, in fact, best for M$'s customers. Since the total of the two companies' market shares will be ~ 90%, and the maximum of either will be set at 50%, both companies will have market shares varying between 40% and 50%. Both companies, of course, will have strong incentives to be the 50% company. This is the solution to the M$ monopoly--force M$ to compete against itself.

Note that, if one company withdraws from the desktop market, that leaves 40% of that market open to completely non-M$ solutions. So, if Micros~2 stays in the desktop OS market, it provides Micros~1 with a powerful foe to compete with; if Micros~2 leaves, it creates a vacuum for non-M$ companies to fill. So, either way, the mechanism is set up for M$ to permanently (more or less) lose its monopoly. This, of course, forces Micros~1 and/or Micros~2 to compete, which is good for competitors.

This solution is also, for the same reasons, good for M$'s competitors. If both Micros~1 and Micros~2 stay in a market, the competitors merely have to compete with a weakened version of M$ with no more than 50% market share; if one or both companies leave a market, competitors merely have to fill a vacuum.

This solution is better for Bill Gates than any other serious solution, because it allows Bill Gates's combined possetions in the two companies to equal 100% market share (a real monopoly), if his companies prove they are realy worth 50% market share apiece. In other words, if all that M$ has been saying about innovation is true, Bill Gates will win under this situation. If not, he'll just have to find some programmers to match his marketers.

Finally, this is the best solution for Bush. Bush can accurately claim that with this solution that he has: eliminated the possibility of monopoly abuses by M$, and at the same time protected and encouraged innovation, even proprietary innovation! Surely this is a position that he cannot gain any other way; however, it is also a most admirable position.

That's why I'm in favor of a breakup.