German Parliament Considers Linux

daramannen writes ""The committee is examining whether switching the Bundestag's more than 5,000 computers to open source would improve stability and security, as well as save money, Schroer said. By the committee's estimate, implementing open source software throughout the federal government could result in savings of 250 million marks (US$116 million)." "

Comments

Choice?

[Quasar1999]

I don't think using Microsoft products is an option for them... They aren't on very good terms to begin with (since their dispute over Microsoft's EULA).

Re:Choice?

[Unknown Bovine Group]

Obviously, they're waiting to hear David Hasselhoff's opinion. Becase as we all know...

<Norm MacDonald>Germans LOVE David Hasselhoff.</Norm MacDonald>

Re:Choice?

[Rogerborg]

• They aren't on very good terms to begin with (since their dispute over Microsoft's EULA

In the EULA case, the government wasn't involved, it was (IIRC) a civil case where a reseller took on Microsoft and won hands down in court. The verdict couldn't have been clearer. Microsoft was instructed in no uncertain terms that they would not be bullying anyone in Germany with extra-legal EULA's. I don't honestly know how they dealt with that, it's in stark contrast to the convoluted and toothless conduct remedies that they have become used to arguing against or just ignoring in the US.

Interestingly, Microsoft have already voluntarily modified Windows to remove a component with very tenuous links to Scientology to head off any trouble in Germany.

No, Microsoft and Germany really don't see eye to eye at all.

Re:Choice?

[CaptainZapp]

To the best of my knowledge that wasn't about the EULA per se, but about the right, to sell those pesky OEM copies of Windows for the right price.

The German supreme court decided, that MS has no right, to distinguish into retail- and OEM-copies, regardless how often they stamp Only for sale with a new computer on the package.

Might be one of the reasons, why MS introduced those wretched recovery CD's (yeah right, recovery)

Microsoft will come to its senses

[tsa]

With all this news about large organisations thinking about switching to Linux, I predict that Microsoft will reconsider their new licensing scheme and go back to their 'old' way of doing business. They're digging their own grave if they don't. One thing that interests me is that the 'the main cost is in the maintenancei, not in the price of the licences' argument against Linux doesn't seem to work anymore.

Re:Microsoft will come to its senses

[MeNeXT]

They need to do better than that. Prices need to drop. MS Office should retail under $100. The reality is that the sofware hasn't changed much in over 5 year but the prices seem to be going up with every new release.

Unfortunately they have reached desktop maturity and the shareholders will not accept a reduction in revenue growth.

I hope they keep their eyes closed for another year then Linux on the desktop will be a new reality and much harder to combat.

Re:Microsoft will come to its senses

[motherhead]

I would like to think that Microsoft will come to it's senses and reevaluate it's licensing policies, but you have to remember the main driving force behind Microsoft's greed and avarice.

Microsoft is not self-destructive or blind with arrogance. They are just screwed by their own success. The sins of the past have come to haunt them, Microsoft has a hell of a lot of shareholders that depend on them to maintain to some degree of the same meteoric levels of growth and prosperity that they have enjoyed in the past. We all know how dirty Microsoft has been in the last fifteen years and that evil business model propelled them to the most important tech stock in most people's portfolio. The reason that they are fighting so hard to be allowed to maintain these bullshit business models is that they need them to survive. Lets laugh together at the notion of Office's success if it was denied access to the OS division (and visa versa to some degree).

So now it's 2001 and what do they have? They have an oversaturated market, there is almost no compelling reason for any offices to upgrade Office, there are scant reasons to upgrade to Microsoft XP. Microsoft is banging it's head into every area it can find (ie. Xbox, PocketPC, DirectTV, etc etc...) trying to build new revenue models, but at this point the money is not coming in yet.

When I found myself explaining to my brother the other day (a longtime Microsoft shareholder) how the OfficeXP and WindowsXP EULA worked his response was, "why the hell are they nickel and dimeing now?".

He understood that there is a huge difference between the guy that installs WindowsXP on both his desktop and his laptop and the huge duplicating plant in Malaysia that is duping knockoffs replete with holograms at 100,000 units per day.

My response was that I am starting to think they have to.

Re:Microsoft will come to its senses

[Malcontent]

" They need to do better than that. Prices need to drop. MS Office should retail under $100. The reality is that the sofware hasn't changed much in over 5 year but the prices seem to be going up with every new release."

If that is not proof of a monopoly I don't know what is.

Patriotic?

[squaretorus]

Even if they need 5x the number of support techs to run on Open Source, this has to be A Good Thing for the German economy. Why spend all that money on a foreign product when you can spend it on your own engineers? Quality jobs instead of low quality imports.

Any government could use that as a driving reason for change - especially with a downturn happening around us. Every little helps!

Re:Patriotic?

[armb]

> If they get linux from redhat the money is going to an US firm.

And if they buy it (and support) from SuSE, it doesn't.
http://www.suse.de/de/services/support/index.htm l

Re:Patriotic?

[ChristTrekker]

Gov't jobs don't really add anything to the economy, though. Gov't money comes from taxpayers, so more gov't jobs means more drag on the private sector that is actually producing something. Gov't is a necessary evil, and should be no larger than necessary. The private sector can usually do the same job better, cheaper, and faster.

Re:Patriotic?

[KenSeymour]

So you don't think that the ability of the post office to deliver your bills and payments
helps the economy?

The private sector is not even interested in carrying letters.

Even if you do your ordering and bill payment online,
the highways and roads that the government
builds and maintains help companies deliver
the goods you ordered.

And if you think that the private sector is usually better, cheaper, faster, then you have not worked
for a large corporation.

How many industries would not even exist if there was no public investment in infrastructure.
That goes for roads and for the Internet as well.

Re:Patriotic?

[dgroskind]

The private sector can usually do the same job better, cheaper, and faster.

Now is a peculiar time to be making this assertion.

One need only look at the issue of airport security before 9/11 for an example of how delivering services at a low cost is not a relevant consideration.

Apologists for corporate efficiency simply slough off the recent dotcom debacle as the price one pays for a free market.

Government certainly has failures but all organizations do. Bankruptcy is endemic in small businesses. Virtually none of the original Dow Jones 30 companies, the strongest companies in the economy, are still in business.

The idea that corporations deliver services better than government is mostly a product of selective use of evidence, bad cost accounting and corporate propaganda.

Re:Patriotic?

[SurfsUp]

Gov't jobs don't really add anything to the economy, though. Gov't money comes from taxpayers, so more gov't jobs means more drag on the private sector that is actually producing something.

So you think it's better to just ship the money out of the country? Right.

Gov't is a necessary evil, and should be no larger than necessary. The private sector can usually do the same job better, cheaper, and faster.

Most probably, the private sector *is* going to do this Linux support. So what's your point?

Re:Patriotic?

[dgroskind]

I think this is a darn good incentive for airlines to listen to consumer demand and start providing better security in order to regain business!

The free market system you described failed completely. The reason it failed is because it was skewed toward providing services at a low price rather than providing services consumers deserved. That problem is inherent in the free market. Inevitably, private security agencies are going to provide the least service they can get away with.

The only way to adjust the system is through government regulation with government inspectors or by the government taking it over. Notice that it may be more expensive but cost of delivery is not the issue.

You need a system similar to the National Transportation Safety Board that enforces airline maintenance regulations. Under this system, you don't wait for airplanes to crash before checking their maintenance records and auditing their procedures.

If enough people demanded a safety feature in their car...

Once again, you are describing a free market mechanism that doesn't always work. Every safety feature in a car from padded dashboards to air bags have been mandated by law and over the objections of auto industry lobbiest. Tens of thousands of people died from poorly designed cars while you were waiting for the free market to work its magic. Much better to just pass the safety legislation and save the lives.

People can legitimately make their demands known through their elected representatives as well as through their buying habits.

The free market has it virtues but it also has its limits. Government has a role to play when the free market fails and it fails often.

Re:Patriotic?

[Malcontent]

"Weird. I better catch that UPS guy real quick, cause he obviously won't deliever my letter."

It depends on where you live.

Re:Patriotic?

[Malcontent]

One out of three businesses fail. Imagine if that criterea was applied to the govt. What if one out three govt agencies could simply declare bankrupcy fold the tent and go home. All those veterans with no benefits, all those farmers with no crop insurance, all those elderly with no social security. The reason the corporation does better is because it does less. Corporations don't serve everybody only those who can pay (and usually the ones who can pay the most). The govt works under different rules. Govt programs have to serve without discrimination and they can't simply fail.

Imagine if UPS or fedex was forced to deliver to anyplace in america (including remote places like alaska and hawaii) for the same cost. Coudl they do it more efficiently? I'd doubt it.

Re:Patriotic?

[Malcontent]

There is a difference here. If you employ one german tech and send the rest of your money to redmond your country may not be better off (even if the total cost is less). Those 5 techs are going to be german and the money will stay in germany. It will eventually get back to the govt in taxes (some of it anyways) and it will support many other businesses in the meantime. The money sent to Bill Gates will never get spent in germany and probably will never be invested in germany either.

Re:Patriotic?

[squaretorus]

One need only look at the issue of airport security before 9/11for an example of how delivering services at a low cost is not a relevant consideration.
This is a much cited example at the moment, but does NOT in any way imply that governments would operate a better airline business. It simply points out that the US government was complacent about the threat of hijacking on domestic flights. Government should have established the core safety, security and decency boundaries with impartiality - they did not - they listened to the airlines and passengers talk about cost, waiting times, and a million other things. Are you seriously suggesting the average US citizen would be better served by a government run airline, if not this is irrelevent.

Apologists for corporate efficiency simply slough off the recent dotcom debacle as the price one pays for a free market.
Very few of the companies involved were to blame, it was the financial institutions that caused the dot com bubble. You could argue that government, again, should have imposed tougher regulations on speculative trading.

Virtually none of the original Dow Jones 30 companies, the strongest companies in the economy, are still in business.
This is a key STRENGTH of the open market. As a company loses its edge it is got rid of, people simply stop using it. If true market forces were at work in the UK Health market the government run NHS would no longer exist. It did a fantastic job well into the late 60s, early 70s, but since then other providers have lept ahead of it.
An organisation does not have to be long lived to be great. Is Ali any lesser a boxer because he retired? No.
We do not, however, have the opportunity to close down most government institutions, meaning all the dead wood just keeps slowing them down.

Re:Patriotic?

[squaretorus]

In response to some of the feedback to my original post:

My proposition was along these lines.

Lets assume Windows costs 300Euros per machine
Lets assume Linux costs 0Euros per machine

Lets assume we have 5000 machines - thats a total of 1.5M Euros saved

Lets assume support for some flavour of Linux can be sourced locally, from a smaller company, or by directly hiring a pool of techs.

Whoever these guys n gals work for they are local, and get paid, and then spend the money locally. THAT is how this adds to the local economy - instead of shipping barrels of cash over to the US you spend it on local grunts. So long as the computers are as effective for the money this is the right thing to do.

Simple

Re:Patriotic?

[Malcontent]

It depends on the market. In the OS market Gemany has a HUGE trade deficit. If they stop buying MS products AND encourage their citizens not to buy it then they could put a dent in that deficit.

Re:Patriotic?

[Malcontent]

Oh yes those business which fail were very competent and efficient right? Lets face ti businesses are horribly inefficient. Like I said one out of three go under that's a horrible batting record. Imagine if you doctor killed one out of three patients. As for the remaining that make it one third of them are on corporate welfare of some sort or another. And guess what not one of them cares about the public at large or the well being of the citizenry. They just want your money that's all they don;t give a shit if you live or die and certainly don't give a shit if they are killing you by pumping poisons down your wells.

Yes let's turn all of our lives to corporations and give up this silly experiment called representive democracy.

Good for them!

[einhverfr]

I think that it is great that foreign governments are considering Linux seriously. It makes it harder for legislation in America, such as the SSSCA to kill the OS and makes it more likely to succeed in the long run.

And it will probably save them a bundle of money for as long as they get decent support contracts or have the people in house. This will be a great thing for SuSE...

Re:Good for them!

[imadork]

It makes it harder for legislation in America, such as the SSSCA to kill the OS and makes it more likely to succeed in the long run.

The optimist in me wants to believe you, but the pessimist in me thinks that lawmakers in the USA won't care, and will watch as the rest of the world migrates away from US-based DRM-enabled OS's. It might even turn into our patriotic duty to Buy American when it comes to OS's!

Just because the OS may get outlawed in the U.S. doesn't mean that the rest of the world can't use it (to their competitive advantage).

Re:Good for them!

[einhverfr]

I never said it would guarentee Linux's survival but rather that it would increase the chances of its survival. Otherwise, the survival of Linux would hinge on the developing nations...

There is a difference between guaranteed survival and an increase in the chances.

That being said, I think that it still maintain that this sort of thing is helpful and necessary. The really troubling thing would be if it was NOT being looked at. Then we would really be in trouble.

That would be a nice coup... but

[Delrin]

I could actually imagine the German government using SuSe Linux, it would be a great coup! But I am sceptical still, the bigger the organization, the less likely they are to adopt an open-standard for their system. I would love to be proven wrong, but ever here at my company (banking industry) there is a lot of reluctance towards linux... Not everyone wants to move away from a commercial solution, be it for maintenance reasons, or just maintaining a standard with other companies. We'll that's my two cents for whatever they are worth

Re:That would be a nice coup... but

[Snootch]

But I am sceptical still, the bigger the organization, the less likely they are to adopt an open-standard for their system.

True, but if anyone can pull it off, the Gerans can. I mean, what kind of a country can go from the devastation of WW1 to damn nearly winning WW2, and then from the devastation originating there into its current dominating position in Europe? I think that they would make good trailblazers - they have the best chance of success with this, and then people would start seeing that it is in fact possible...

Re:That would be a nice coup... but

[opkool]

Actually, you can get a pretty expensive support contract qith a commercial company.

Yes, SuSE Gmbh is a commercial company that provides solutions for companies in forms of:

-24/7 support
-training
-selling of products
-software customization

and all those goodies and security nets that a big company is used to.

Also, get some zSeries mainframes from IBM Corp were SuSE is te distribution of choice. They will have reliable hardware for a (comparative) cheap price. Do you recall the article about cost savings while running a Mainframe instead a server farm? Here's one: in this link

And, of course, if they do not like SuSE, because the product is OpenSource, the German Government can hire and train their own team to support themselves the whole thing.

Big government organizations in Europe tend to have tight budgets. I know because I used to work in one of them. And that organization is right now, as we speak, evaluating the full migration towards Linux-based solutions. Yes, tehy cannot afford in any way the new Microsoft pricing policy, so they have decided to go the Penguin way. Too bad they did that after I left.

All the best,
OpKool

Re:That would be a nice coup... but

[Snootch]

ust look at eastern Germany , they were just as German as the rest of the country yet somehow their "Germanic" status did not protect them from ending up just as bad as the rest of soviet block.

That's just because Lenin/Stalinism is, in practice, very inefficient, and they had humungous labour problems, as anyone who could escaped westward. Once reunited and under a democratic government - guess what? United Germany has bounced back as a cohesiv whole - and the time for them to do that is very short indeed.

Pinky to mouth....

[Teancom]

"116 *Million* Dollars".....

At least now we know where they are getting the money to fund the Sphinx.
Anways, I'm packing my bags and moving to Germany. Seems like they are the current holders of the Free World torch :-)

Re:Pinky to mouth....

[dgroskind]

"116 *Million* Dollars".....

It is a meaningless number. The article doesn't even say if the savings are annual or not.

Even if the savings are annual and they include transition costs such as training and temporarily maintaining two incompatible systems, redeveloping some programs, etc., they would be such a small percentage of the annual computing costs as to make it not worth the disruption. A poor transition strategy could completely cancel out the cost savings.

Rather than considering a wholesale transition, making a system by system analysis usually yields the best results. This type of analysis is usually technical and is beyond the ability of a parliamentary committee to have an informed opinion.

It's good that open source platforms have intruded into the decisions of government committees, but, as the article suggests, cost is the last issue they should consider.

This is very good...

[Snootch]

...and it it (predictably) Germany that got there first. German has always been the second language of the Internet as far as I can see (large quantities of KDE are commented in german - took me a lot of time with the dictionary, that did). Germany is establishing itself as a very technologically-conscious country.

Even relative technophobes are less inhibited about using an out-of-the-box Linux installation. Germany is where it's all happening in the computing world...

Re:This is very good...

[sphealey]

"Germany is establishing itself as a very technologically-conscious country"

Yeah, since about 1840 or so...

sPh

Re:This is very good...

[Snootch]

"Germany is establishing itself as a very technologically-conscious country"

Yeah, since about 1840 or so...

sPh


OK, so that's what I get for not making myself clear. What i meant was computer-type technology. I know they've been doing it for a while, but the gap is really getting startlingly wide by now.

Re:This is very good...

[Arthur Dent 75]

OK, so that's what I get for not making myself clear. What i meant was computer-type technology. I know they've been doing it for a while, but the gap is really getting startlingly wide by now.

You really want to see me burst in tears? Here in Germany everyone fears to be outpaced by the US as far as technology and economy in general are concerned. The US are still far ahead in the usage of the internet and electronic services in general as an everyday means of communication.

Somehow everyone is frightened to stay behind in the global game.

Arthur

consider the costs

[Kallahar]

It's a good thing in the long run, but what are the costs of switching that many people over? Sure the OS is free, but all that tech support time is quite expensive, especially in the beginning. How long would it take for them to recoup in savings the loss for the switchover?

Re:consider the costs

[oddjob]

If the tech support costs are paid to German IT workers, that's much better than paying a US company for software from a political standpoint even without any overall savings.

Microsoft vs. Germany?

[Bonker]

Steve Ballmer Says: 'So, you think you can get avay vith abandoning the reich, eh? Don't be so sure. Ve haff vays of makink you upgrade...'

Re:Microsoft vs. Germany?

[grytpype]

"Zo? Do you haff your lizence papiers? WHY DO YOU NOT HAVE ZE PAPIERS?"

Re:Microsoft vs. Germany?

[sharkey]

"Ballmer ist alive!? Ve heard dot you vas kaput mit der Ballhog!"

NSA Backdoors

[isa-kuruption]

Among the arguments in favor of Linux: reports that some versions of Windows contain backdoors designed to grant the U.S. National Security Agency access to users' data.

You mean.. the NSA isn't gonna be able to figure out how the Germans engineer such wonderful cars anymore? This is an outrage! What else does the German gov't have to offer, anyway?

Re:NSA Backdoors

[Rogerborg]

• What else does the German gov't have to offer, anyway?

Information on all European Union internal policies and planning? Incriminating evidence of them cheating on trade deals?

The US and the EU are of comparable size in population and economy, and are in fierce competition in many areas. Things like banana trade wars might sound like a bad comedy sketch, but it's a serious multi-million dollar dispute, and there's plenty more of them out there.

So, how would you feel about Germany monitoring your financial dealings through their own version of Echelon? Wouldn't you want the NSA to protect you from that? There's a valid (though specious) counter-intelligence excuse for putting in back doors in popular products, to spy on those who might be spying on you.

Not that I'm buying that this is actually going on, but there's plenty of reasons why it might be, and why it's better to be Open than sorry.

Consider that the new generation of US warships will be running Windows for Warfare. You can damn well bet your life that the US Navy is going to want to evaluate every line of code that goes into those systems. They aren't just going to take Microsoft's word for it, especially as MS subcontract work out to third parties, some of them in countries where a little bribery would go a long way.

Similarly, no sensible government (including the US!) should be using closed binaries for critical functions.

Re:NSA Backdoors

[Rogerborg]

• Actually, the Navy will NOT be checking every line of code. That is why the battleship had to be towed already

I honestly find that very hard to believe. I'm not claiming that Navy guys will do it, but at the very least, they should have it checked by a third party consultancy firm.

It's certainly an interesting topic. Got references to any evidence?

Imagine if $100 million of the savings....

[MeNeXT]

were to be reinvested in oupn source solutions.

It's sad that they are willing to spend on certain solutions and not others. Why must free be FREE? Why do we need an invoice to justify an expense?

Don't get me wrong, this is good news for Open Source, but if you can't give back in one way why not give back in another. If Linux was not there they would be traped in spending these funds.

The german govt. is already OSS friendly

[steve.m]

the German Federal Ministry of Economics and Technology help fund the development of GnuPG.
Check out the press release.

SuSE

[FortKnox]

Seeing that suse wasn't in the greatest of shape, supporting the German Gov't will definately boost its profits!

Germans sponsering open source

[pyretic22]

Well I remember germany sponsering GPG development, and lately encryption extensions to both kmail and mutt. This seems like one giant step forward in this process.

Probably the result of consideration is determined

[Kruemelmo]

It is a good thing that they consider this, but can you see this happening?

If the Bundestag administration is not able to print .doc documents as they were shown in someone else's Word 2K (with correct table dimenstions, bullets, idents and images), it would make people laugh hard at them. If they give a Linux desktop solution a try, Bundestag staff will probably make Linux go away again because they will get many problems they didn't have before.

They won't do it, I say. They'll buy WinXP. Maybe they are just trying to get a good price for it.

Oooh look a reference point

[M_Talon]

If this actually happens and succeeds, techies worldwide will have something they can show their bosses during debates on whether they should switch to Linux or not. I really hope it works, for the future of Open Source. Even if it fails, it won't set us back that far. We simply review what went wrong and figure ways to improve it.

Gotta agree with one poster though, the EU seems to be more "modern" in terms of the digital era than America. They seem to actually be ruled by common sense and a willingness to look at the big picture. This is of course in contrast to the USA's approach of "oh, a big company says it's good then it must be good".

Re:Oooh look a reference point

[M_Talon]

Technologically speaking, we're the cream of the digital era crop. However, when you get into laws, policies, and general perception, the United States seems to be getting more and more short sighted. Corporate interests and "the bottom line" have more influence than what's best for the industry and the people.

That one misguided law has opened the door for more just like it, and no one seems willing to stand in the doorway to stop it. The governement shouldn't be influenced by companies, it should be influenced by people. Companies should be doing what's right for their customers, not what's right for their checkbooks and customers be damned. However, both groups have been acting like they forgot that in the end they answer to us the consumers and citizens. We make them, and we can break them if there's enough of us.

Until we actually stand up and quit letting the corporations buy laws that screw our rights, we are going to be behind and we're going to stay behind. You're right, we made the digital era. We're also in danger of watching it pass us by.

Re:Oooh look a reference point

[Troed]

Yeah, right. If it wasn't for the USA, all the Europeans would still be sending messages by carrier pigeon.

We made the damn digital era.

*laughing* .. another US citizen that hasn't got a clue on what happens (and has happened) out there in the big world outside of the little US-borders. I really feel pity for you, because even when someone tells you that you're wrong, you're just likely to respond with some US-fed propaganda.

Here's a few clues: The US is _way_ behind in telecom and wireless. WAY behind.

(oh, and look up who Charles Babbage was :D

Re:Oooh look a reference point

[DickBreath]

It just amazes me that one misguided law gets passed and everyone thinks that the US Government has taken away all of our personal rights.

I couldn't agree more.

It will take at least several more misguided laws before we loose all of our rights. We still have some left. So people should quit complaining about one misguided law. Other misguided laws aren't on the books, only mere drafts.

Re:Oooh look a reference point

[M_Talon]

Exactly my point, and well said. I have a major beef with corporate interests like Microsoft and RIAA who use their vast financial backing to twist legal regulations to force the consumer to play their game and their game alone, then charge inappropriate amounts for their product. Hence why I do not buy RIAA-sponsored music and avoid buying MS software unless it ships on a computer I purchase (can't avoid that one). I use StarOffice at home, for example, and it serves my purpose.

That's why it's really important when an organization like the German parliment backs an alternative product. It shows that consumers do still have a choice, and if we actually banded together to vote with our wallets and our ballots we can put an end to the corporatized legislation.

Re:Oooh look a reference point

[Oniros]

In 1989, at the European Particle Physics Laboratory in Geneva, Switzerland, Berners-Lee first proposed a "global hypertext project" to be known as the World Wide Web.

I guess the USA didn't invent everything, eh? (And where does Linus come from again? :)

Science and technology is a big collaborative developpement between people from many nations and it feels really silly to have to mention this here.

fearing espionage / some states alread switched

[eMago]

The administration of the state
Schleswig Holstein already switched to Linux some time ago.
Other administrations (or parts of them) are switching currently.

The main reason is not the money but Germans fear that there are hidden backdors in US commercial software. After Echelon they don't trust
US closed source software anymore.
There are rumors (and proofed facts) that the US is doing economic espionage on German firms.
The administration could be the next target...
So they try to become independant.

Re:fearing espionage / some states alread switched

[michael_cain]

The main reason is not the money but Germans fear that there are hidden backdors in US commercial software.

Does this fear extend to productivity software and other applications, or just to the operating system? Would Office for Linux, similar in spirit to Office for Mac, be acceptable? Would MS be interested in half a loaf, rather than losing it all?

Tech support problem

[Xerithane]

First off. You know that they are going to be purchasing a lot of supportive documentation. This could be good for SuSE or whatever distribution they choose. Secondly, I can imagine that a lot of college and high school kids over there would jump at the chance to do an install fest for the government. Not only would this be a cool event just to go hang out at and have fun, but it would look great on a resume. To handle security measures, it would be rather simple to ensure that all the boxes are setup correctly (bulk NMAP compared with a perl script to ensure proper connectivity, along with a package management system... all of which can be done by "quick hacks" and only hiring one or two people to maintain).

I'd really like to see more governments harnessing the zeal of open source advocates and realizing that we actually like doing this stuff and would do it for a resume addon or certificate. Just my thoughts on the issue.

Re:Tech support problem

[BluePenguin]

I think (having worked IT in a High School) that I'd be a little nervous letting High School (or even some college) students do an "install fest" for a government installation.

But the idea does have a lot of merit. Goverments have traditionally farmed all sorts of research out to Universities. Why not propose a sort of competition. Allow seniors with a Computer Science major to design a complete open source solution to fit the government's needs. The government could furnish a list of required capabilities and see what emerges. Winning student not only gets to know his solution is implemented... but (s)he probably gets a job too!

:q!

Re:Tech support problem

[Xerithane]

That is probably a little bit more "fail-safe". The issue with high school students is very valid. I have to say I wouldn't allow myself to hire my high-school self to do anything like this in all honesty.

Using college students however would be a much better idea, exchange for college credits and also college students have much on the line if they do something on the shady side of the fence. Hopefully they will utilize the huge edjucation base instead of hiring a bunch of consultants.

Transatlantic OS Split

[dackroyd]

If the Germans lead the European governments into using Linux (or any other Open Source OS) and the US goverment makes it illegal to own any non-trusted (non-Microsoft) OS through the SSSCA, then it is possible that people on different sides of the Atlantic would be split to using different computer systems.

Personally I think this would be great for European software companies as they would have opportunities that US companies would normally go for.

Not so great for any non-Microsoft software companies in America though, if they aren't allowed to write non-secure software for Europe and M$ keeps forcing other companies out of the market place by bundling features with the OS.

What about those poor windows only techies?

[humps]

Sure its a good news. But wouldn't ANY organization migrating to linux (assume they were with M$) need to get rid of those linux incapable support staff and hire new ones. Or need to x-train the old ones? Leading to job cuts.... well their hire some people else....

no suprise that Govt is looking at linux

[Lumpy]

Consider the history of government computing, They still run old mainfraimes because of the software they built decades ago, Tax and voting software is still running on hardware fom the 1970's and 1980's. Why? because re-writing something that works is economically dumb. Plus they have the source code so if a modification is needed, hire a programmer or use the in-house programmer to change it, no vendor needed, no more "at the mercy" of other companies. you can impliment changes and new projects in-house without having to spend another $2.9 million in order to upgrade the OS again.

Linux has that advantage... The source code, and you OWN it. Hey, I have linux and noone can take it away from me,
Linus cant stand up and say "everyone with the last name that starts with A can no longer run linux" like microsoft can, or IBM can or Apple can, or SCO, etc....

This isnt about the software, it's about the licesnes' The german govt cant tell everyone to "go to hell in a handbasket" if they use a open source system. Noone can sue them for contract breach, charge them millions for illegal search and seizure (Microsoft audit) or be blackmailed (Microsoft audit)

Any company or Government that has any brains would see that geting out from under the control of another entity will save thousands and even millions. and hiring Linux guru's at a paltry $60K USD each saves even more money.

as for user training... XP is coming out and will require the SAME amount of training... so that point is only typical Microsoft FUD.

Re:no suprise that Govt is looking at linux

[Lumpy]

That is the current Myth running around, but I know 1 of the programmers at the local city (not the one I live in but the bordering neighbor.) he writes apps all the time. Mostly C or fortran apps with a smattering of pascal and cobol (YUCK!) but he keeps tryin to get C on every platform. (They still have a PDP11 in the basement... it's retired but kept because of the data that resides on the platter may be needed sometime within the next century and they wont spend money to allow my friend to write an app to retrieve the data and convert it.... It's "safer" where it is.

The state of michigan has 5 programmers, one of which I met and is 25 years old...

Nasa has awesome programmers, and the military and US govt does also.

Today, programmers are cheap. espically those that spend 50% of their time as administrators for the servers.

remember these programmers are code grunts, not the prima-donnas that we all had to deal with during the past 5-10 years, getting $190K a year and a fararri from the company. there are plenty of great programmers starving and happy to get $60-90K a year.

There is no glory in writing a sort program for the 30th time... but someone has to do it every day

Governments of the future .. tech saavy?

[SirSlud]

If the buying public continues to blindly lick the boots of MS, while governments move to *nix (for the desktop) solutions due to costs (and as well they should .. I prefer my taxes going to something like social programs rather than MS), they might just find themselves aligned with *nix geeks. Who else thinks governments would find themselves in a very good spot if they became a main source of employment for OS and *nix pundits? I don't want the tech infrastructure of my government to depend on MS's marketing strategies rather than actual need and opportunity for IS improvement.

Yeah, if I was spending $23,000 per PC

[JohnTheFisherman]

....I'd look for alternatives too. I'm just curious what the heck they ARE spending it on. $23 THOUSAND dollars a PC. Hmmmm..... something smells fishy. I've never experienced anything near that kind of cost for downtime, data loss, support, or licensing fees, pretty much always working in a Windows environment.

Re:Yeah, if I was spending $23,000 per PC

[JanneM]

You misread the article... The discussion was about replacing the 5000 seats in the Bundestag (approx. house of representatives); the $116 million figure was the projected savings if the entire federal government were to switch.

It'd be a remarkably efficient federal government to need just 5000 desktops... :)

/Janne

This is the model...

[Sturm]

This is how a successful switch to Linux could be accomplished. It's hard for 3 people in an organisation of 100 people to switch to Linux and live comfortably. But if the entire government switches to Linux, there won't be any issues with doc/data compatibility. And their support network will find it much earier to support Linux if it's the only desktop/server platform. I hope this works out on this large of a scale. Maybe it really will get Microsoft's attention.

Don't think so.

[einhverfr]

The basic problem is that the PC market is saturating. Perhaps the server market too but that is not so sure. If Microsoft continues in their "old way" I think that they will have to raise prices substantially. This is why they are going to the new scheme. It is not so much a lack of competition as it is an inability to meet their current revenue needs as the market shifts.

This is the great strength of open source. Proprietary software requires that one company absorb all the R&D costs and then distribute that cost on to their customers. Fewer customers means higher overhead, and this is a very steep trend because R&D is such a large cost. Open source on the other hand, distributes the cost of development by distributing the development and thereby passing the cost on to the consumer without needing to rely on sales. In essence, it is a strategy where needs are met at a price, and any need can be met.

OK. So how is this on topic? If the German government wants to save money and retain quality as this industry continues to saturate, they have no reasonable alternative than to go to open source solutions. FreeBSD is great and all, but my experience is that the Linux Documentation Project is far enough along to make Linux a real compelling buy. And much of the material is either available in German or could be easily translated. And Linux is to the Windows desktop at least what DOS was to the Mac desktop (since when has ease of use really been a defining factor, and I have found that when properly set up, Linux can result in less reliance on tech support than a new version of Windows when given to beginners).

Linux is the obvious choice.

Re:Don't think so.

[opkool]

Proprietary software requires that one company absorb all the R&D costs and then distribute that cost on to their customers.


Actualy, for Microsoft, the biggest cost is Marketing. You want to read this article and learn about the cost of launching WindowsXP ($1 billion!!!!!!).

Have in mind that WindowsXp has no real new features. Just some outrageous theme ontop of Windows2000 core and then some code merginf from the WindowsME tree. Really.

Re:Don't think so.

[donutello]

Actualy, for Microsoft, the biggest cost is Marketing. You want to read this article [cnet.com] and learn about the cost of launching WindowsXP ($1 billion!!!!!!).

No, you moron. Microsoft spent nearly $5 billion on R&D last year. And if you think about the fact that the WindowsXP launch is a once-in-a-few-years event, you will quickly realize that marketing is not even close to being the biggest cost.

Have in mind that WindowsXp has no real new features. Just some outrageous theme ontop of Windows2000 core and then some code merginf from the WindowsME tree. Really.

Only on /. would an uninformed flamebait like that get modded up as insightful. I use XP on a daily basis and there are several features I don't want to do without.

Re:Don't think so.

[opkool]

C'mo on.

The point is how much Microsoft is expending on Marketing for 1 product. The same amount that IBM is spending to integrate Linux into all its product lines!!! 1! billion!!!

And WinXP innovation... Well, read your InfoWorld Magazine (here and here)and you will discover that Brian Livingstone, the author of Windows 95 secrets, Windows 98 secrets, WindowsMe secrets, Windows 2000 secrets... has explicitely said that he is not gong to upgrade to WindowsXP. Also, he is not going to write WindowsXP secrets.

This sure means something, isn't it?

Re:Don't think so.

[Red Avenger]

Internet Connection Firewall, DualHead, Integrated CD Burner, Integrated Zip Utility, Integrated Themes, Integrated Icon Chooser, Different views for folders, Windows Messenger, etc. etc. etc...

I could go on and on. So go ahead and mod me up as insightful.

Re:Don't think so.

[kinkie]

Care to detail what those features are?

One I can think of is the ability to join forests (which has some advantage if two enterprises both already running MS Windows 2k merge).

Luna is a step backwards IMO in that it MIGHT be easier for novices, but it's definitely more cumbersome for power users and requires more CPU. Luckily it can be turned off.
Some benchmark demonstrated that IPC (via pipes) is horrible under MS-WinXP as compared to MS-Win2k.
What then? Internet Explorer 6? *cough cough* MS-Smarttags.
The ability to emulate a MS-Win9X registry? Definitely maybe if you use it for games, useless garbage otherwise.
It's ability to force Microsoft's software over the competitors' with Digital cameras? Or the bundling of Media Player (for which Microsoft is risking a $1billion fine from the EU)?

Okay, I'm flamebaiting and I'll stop now, but the question is sincere. What features are you talking about?

Re:Don't think so.

[donutello]

How about you look at their financial statement from the last quarter or look at news reports like this before asserting that they didn't spend that much money?

this is wonderful but too bad it won't happen here

[lyapunov]

I really think that is wonderful. It will show that there is a great deal of savings to be had in these types of solutions. The bad part of it is is that microsoft has catered to spoon feeding people for so long, i doubt that the majority of our people in the US will have the technical wherewithall to run linux on a day to day basis. It takes everyone a little time to get people aware of things like permissions, using the command line to copy or move files, etc... If they did try to switch they would probably whine enough to make it a nonviable solution.

Information about international contracts

[Per Abrahamsen]

The government often "back" international trade contracts, and therefore likely have inside information. Some of these compete with US companies, who would just love to know what their german competitors are bidding on a contract.

More to the point of NSA (or CIA), Germany traditionally have a more arab-friendly foreign policy that the US. The US government would probably like to know any changes (like e.g. lifting the embarco against Iraq) in the German policiy before it becomes official.

Governments have a way with things...

[Svartalf]

For the longest time, if you want to work with the US Armed Forces, you couldn't submit anything but Wordperfect documents to them- if you did, it got filed in the bit-bucket. Same goes now for the Legal profession. Most courts will not accept anything but Wordperfect documents. An MS Word document will get a request for a resubmission in Wordperfect format.

All it would take is the German government insisting that they don't accept Word/Excel 2000 documents from ANYONE and the people will have to deal.

Work for the advocates

[mAsterdam]

Yes. Linux for the german parliament. That is a Good Thing (TM). But wait. There is no decision yet. It is under consideration. Under consideration only. No doubt the party who's not gaining from such a deal (now who would that be) will put much effort into convincing the german parliament that it should decide otherwise.

A few months ago there was talk of Linux for educational institutions in Mexico. Where are we now?
So ... advocates: Do your thing and do it well. And hurry!

study shows Germans major Open Source developers

[pjones]

A study, we did at UNC in 1999. Showed that .de is the second most common email ending of open source contributors following only .com

European mail endings accounted for 37% of all contributions!
http://www.ibiblio.org/osrt/develpro.html
for more including graphs.

Re:Probably the result of consideration is determi

[cloudmaster]

Yes, ha ha, that document created in one crappy program doesn't open right in another program. Ha ha ha. Ha ha.

Maybe they'll laugh hard at the people who created the docs in a non-portable format instead. Maybe they'll require that documents get converted to a useful standard. Yeah, that's what will happen.

Re:Will the training eat up the savings?

[sqlrob]

Pretty much anyone who uses a PC day to day can configure and control a Windows box on Day 1

Configure and control yes, but configure and control correctly? How many shares are on the net? How many home users got NIMDA / Code Red?

I would guess that about the same level of knowledge is needed to configure a Linux box correctly as to configure a Windows box correctly.

MS "upgrade treadmill"

[schon]

I'm a bit curious as to how they're going to save all that money. If they just stop using whatever software they already have paid for, will they get a refund? Or do they spend huge amounts of money each year on licenses, and that figure represents the savings over several years?

The article mentions that.

They currently use NT. In a year (or so) MS will stop supporting NT, so they'll have to go with XP, or switch to Linux. (You can't have government computers running an unsupported proprietary OS - someone creates the next NIMDA, and there is no way to patch the hole.)

The cost savings mentioned are projected across the entire federal government, (presumably) for MS licenses.

Do the math...

[clinko]

"more than 5,000 computers"

I'll say 8,000 to be nice...

"federal government could result in savings of 250 million marks (US$116 million)"

That comes out to $14,500 a computer... I built my linux box for about 500 bucks and it's nearly top of the line...

Re:Do the math...

[bperkins]

The Bundestag is just the German lower house of parliament, there are certainly other computers in the German government.

The wording of the article is a bit confusing, but I think they mean to try it out in the Bundestag before trying to implement a government wide policy of using Linux, which could save as much as $116 million.

Re:No more i love yous...

[delcielo]

Great. Now I have Annie Lennox stuck in my head.

Re:Probably the result of consideration is determi

[Rogerborg]

• If the Bundestag administration is not able to print .doc documents as they were shown in someone else's Word 2K (with correct table dimenstions, bullets, idents and images), it would make people laugh hard at them

Have a look at StarOffice 6 beta. I'm having no issues at all moving .doc documents between it and MS Word 97 and MS Word 2000. My company IT department is currently taking a serious look at StarOffice as a drop in replacement for Microsoft Office. It really is a lovely piece of work.

Re:this is wonderful but too bad it won't happen h

[Rogerborg]

• It takes everyone a little time to get people aware of things like permissions, using the command line to copy or move files, etc

It's possible to set up KDE (haven't used GNOME for a year, so can't comment) so that it looks and works almost indistinguishably from any M$ GUI you care to specify. The biggest difference is finding and fiddling with system settings (which Joe Government won't need to do, that's what IT training is for) and dealing with mounts instead of drives. I honestly think that it's do-able.

Less training than you might think.

[schon]

Pretty much anyone who uses a PC day to day can configure and control a Windows box

This is not as much of an issue as you might think.

First off, in any decent organization, individual users DO NOT configure their own workstations - that's IT's job - there is just too much of a mess that a "regular" user could make, that they are not allowed to do it. So for configuration, the only people that need to be retrained are the IT staff.

Second, "controlling" KDE is pretty much the same as Windows - mouse moves the pointer, click on the icons, etc. Put the appropriate icons on the desktop, and minimal training is required. Apps training is even less of an issue, as all WYSIWYG word processors work basically the same way.

Yes, the biggest hiccup is data transfer - this will consume the largest amount of time and money, but most governments use some form of indexed central storage, which may not need to be changed right away. If they have a database of scanned images (ie. dead-tree paperwork that has been scanned and filed) then the transfer would be pretty painless.

It's IDG.Net

[sulli]

They need to inflate TCO to make their CIO-wannabe readers think they're saving money when they buy whatever's being advertised.

Also some cities in Finland

[magi]

Also my city, Turku (in South-West Finland) is seriously considering switching all city computers to Linux and OpenOffice. This would mean about 3000 computers. The topic has been discussed in many news.

The simple reason is that with new Windows and Office licensing, the software costs would be about 1-2 million euros per year.

"The Microsoft has changed its licensing policy from stealing to plain robbing. Cities simply can't afford to make such contracts," says the information management officer of the city.

"Finland is nowadays a Microsoft nation. This sort of changes would create certain kinds of problems."

Turku will not pay any licensing fees to Microsoft before the examination about Linux is finished before the end of this year.

At least 20 other cities are waiting for the City of Turku decision, and will follow its strategy. Turku has about 160,000 citizens.

Re:Also some cities in Finland

[magi]

Yeah, yeah ... bunch of outside consultants will determine that switching to Linux would be more costly.

So true. For example, the government of Denmark used an analysis from the Gartner consultancy, which said that transition to Linux would not be profitable.

Government linux

[kisak]

I see these kinds of stories -- "gov't organisation x is considering linux" -- more and more in different european countries these days. And not only on "linux web-sites" like slashdot, but in local papers and national papers, both here in Scandinavia and many other EU countries I visit. In Germany and France there seem to be politicians aware of linux, mostly in local gov't but also on national level, and they are two of the biggest and most influential countries of EU (they are also the "homeland" of SuSe and Mandrake).

Still, there seems to be a lot of inertia to overcome to move away from MS dependency. The articles are usually full of keywords like considering, debating, testing. But I would think that the signal effect of a German government switch to linux could be huge. All these local politicians/activist could win over enough support the day they can point to Germany as a success story of open source. Germany is known as a fairly conservative society that don't jump into changes with out thinking about it, so if "the Germans do it, we can do it".

It feels a bit like the Borg is starting to cave in, when you see all these signs of change in mentality and then on top of it all a friends stop by and ask for help to install Mandrake 8.1. His company is considering to move to linux after hearing about new licenses from Seattle. I think MS can wake up with a bad hang over after introducing XP...

Re:Government linux

[ThufirHawat]

I believe that many slashdotters are missing the point: should the Bundestag take the decision to switch to Linux, this would be a powerful signal. Don't forget that while Microslob is getting out of trouble nearly unscathed in the US, thanks to a justice system which is overtly partisan (and now swings with G W B), the European Commission investigation on Microsoft is not over yet.
I think that showing that in Europe not everybody has to play by the MS tune is very important.
Should Americans like to see how their government fanatically preaches free market but acts otherwise, go here: http://europa.eu.int/comm/trade/pdf/usrbt2001.pdf and see how you have been fooled so far...

Motives of government spending

[dgb2n]

While this could well be adopted in Germany, such a move would stand virtually no chance of adoption in the US. Legislators from both American political parties recognize that government spending has at least two intended consequences.

1. Provide a needed service to the citizens

2. Provide an economic benefit to the area/region/local in which the spending occurs.

The commercial software industry in the United States (led by Microserf, Oracle, Sun and others) has been one of the major economic success stories in the US. It is a major source of export income for the nation and a significant source of wealth.

Despite the obvious technical advantages of adopting open source solutions, the business case at the macroeconomic level makes the decision to employ open source software far less clear cut.

It may make economic sense in Germany or other countries that are net importers of operating system and application software. It makes far less economic sense in the United States.

We are a nation that continues to pour money into federal road projects in West Virginia because the populace depends on the jobs that are created (regardless of the amount of traffic on those roads). Don't underestimate the loyalty of those same politicians to the commercial software industry.

Re:Motives of government spending

[TeknoHog]

Argv! I thought the aim of governments is to get things done securely and reliably, without going BSOD, and for a reasonable price. Also, M$ is not exactly a charity that needs to be supported by the government to survive.

If the changeover in Germay takes place, there will probably be a substantial number of jobs created for opensource hackers. In that case, not all the M$ license money is saved, but at least the money goes for those who need it.

In other news,

[tmark]

Billy Joe is considering installing Linux on his home LAN : "I won't be saving anything, since Windows came installed on my machines anyways, but I figure the additional security and stability are worth the free download", he said, before asking how to properly secure a Linux box.

His wife Bobby Sue, on the other hand, steadfastly continues to use Windows on her desktop, but says she "is seriously considering switching from Notepad to Emacs".

Son Billy Joe Jr indicated that he will be staying with his "Speak and Spell" until Linux incorporates speech synthesis into the kernel.

Re:Will the training eat up the savings?

[opkool]

From a business point of view: Use "Linux Terminal Server". Yes, get a fat machine to serve all the applications to your users. This way, to modify/update/change/configure.... all the clients means working in a single machine: the fat server.

This is that the city of Largo has done. This is what Linux at schools project is doing.

Actualy, any distribution will do. But I will recommend you to look for a
"support contract" from RedHat, SuSE, Mandarke...

Some links:

Linux Terminal Server Project. You will see that they have packages for any distribution

Linux in Schools. Although it is oriented for schools, school needs are the same as Your Big Comany or Government.

The City of Largo uses Linux as desktop. So it is possible for plain clerks and secretaries to learn and be productive on Linux Desktops.

A worker just needs a working desktop, so he/she can use a word processor and an spreadsheet program. The "configuration and control" must be done byt he Support Team.

And my mom is unable to properly use Windows98. She's not a moronic mom. She is smart. But she has never been trained as computer specialist. But she can use word processing and spreadsheets. Yes, she uses or has used AmiPro, Office, WordPerfect... they are all the same in the end. No FUD about "difficult StarOffice". But when Windows crashes, she enters in panic mode. delete Windows, add Linux and you get no panic mode.

Do not extend FUD.

Use OpenOffice. Fairly soon should be available as a non-beta product.

Easy to use stuff? Try KDE and make it pretty with themes.

Use KDE as the desktop. Easy transition from any user. Install the "Acqua" or "Acqua-Graphite" Theme & "MacOS Loon'n'feel" with top desktop menu for your MacOS users.

Install the Win2000 Theme & "Win2000 Look'n'Feel for your Windows users.

My 2 cents

Bad Translation

[4of12]

You've got to do better to interpret context in your translations from other languages.

The correct translation is obvious to anyone that has been involved in negotiating Enterprise Licenses with Microsoft lately and bringing up the issue of Linux or any other option to Windows.

In case you still missed it, it is

"We want a lower price on our next agreement."

Re:Probably the result of consideration is determi

[Spruitje]

f the Bundestag administration is not able to print .doc documents as they were shown in someone else's Word 2K (with correct table dimenstions, bullets, idents and images), it would make people laugh hard at them. If they give a Linux desktop solution a try, Bundestag staff will probably make Linux go away again because they will get many problems they didn't have before.


Poor sod, never heard about staroffice or koffice.
Well, the only "problem" they will have is that they will miss their daily systemcrash.
But overall, I don't think that they will miss them that much.
On the other hand, they don't have to change their mailsystem.
They are using Lotus notes now and when they'll switch to linux they still can use lotus notes.
The biggest problem will be that most windoze games won't run under Linux.
And that can be a bad thing ((-;
But the fact is, that it will save them a lot money, problems and virus infections.
No more nimda, i love you and other crap means no more downtime and lost work.
That's also a big plus.

Economics help put linux in intl Govements

[GodSpiral]

Beyond simply comparing financial outlays between the MS and open source alternatives, a highly relevant factor for governements is WHERE that money is spent.

Each $ spent locally has say 25cents recuperated in taxes, of the remaining 75 cents, it is likely spent on something else that generates 25% taxes and so on, and so on. Some of the money leaks out of the govt controlled economy, but most of it doesn't. A $ spent on imports is gone foreever.

For international governments, each $ they spend on MS licenses is probably worth $3-$5 spent locally.

I expect Germany to go through with the linux conversion.

They just want to lower the price of MS-Stuff

[rainer_d]

Believe me,

there may be a (substantial) fraction of people
inside the German government and administration
that wants to go the open-source route.

But in the end, they just want to hit Microsoft with a big stick and threat them into lower
licence-costs. :-)

They have already strong-armed them into a special upgrade program with "confidental" price-reductions that allows to minimize the impact of the subscription-model that is now slowly moving in.

I'll believe it when I see it.

The price of a free market

[roystgnr]

Apologists for corporate efficiency simply slough off the recent dotcom debacle as the price one pays for a free market.

Yes, indeed, if millions of people simultaneously make stupid business decisions, you will indeed see economic failures like the dot-com bubble. Do you have a better idea? Would you care to point out to me the specific congressmen who were acting as the voice of warning, whom you trust enough to make the members of the Committee for Central Planning? Would you point out to me the authors of reasonable, technologically literate legislation whom you trust enough to be in direct control of the evolution of computers and computer networks in the future?

I'd like to see it. As bad as it is to live with an economy that can be easily trashed by 5 million idiots, I suspect an economy that could be easily trashed by 500 idiots would be worse.

Besides, it's a somewhat self-correcting problem. When someone in the private sector wastes his company's or his investors' money, he doesn't usually get the chance to repeat the process.

When someone in Congress wastes the nation's money, we call him an "incumbent".

Re:The price of a free market

[prizog]

"When someone in the private sector wastes his
company's or his investors' money, he doesn't usually get the chance to repeat the process. "

Think again

Re:The price of a free market

[dgroskind]

...he doesn't usually get the chance to repeat the process.

On the contrary, he usually gets the chance to repeat the process.

Case in point is the chief financial officer of Nortel Networks succeeding the president of Nortel after overseeing the largest corporate losses in history.

Furthermore, the board of directors of corporations remains constant from one disaster to the next. The CEO often takes the fall but he's provided with a handsome severance package despite the company's dismal results.

If a failed corporate executive doesn't get a second chance, it's because he doesn't need the work.

It's investors who have their money squandered by managers and directors who may not get a second chance.

Re:The price of a free market

[dgroskind]

As bad as it is to live with an economy that can be easily trashed by 5 million idiots...

I don't think the economy was trashed by the idiots, although a segment of the stock market took a beating. The dotcom debacle merely points out that the free market system has glaring deficiencies and cannot claim to be wiser than government agencies in every instance.

When someone in the private sector wastes his company's or his investors' money, he doesn't usually get the chance to repeat the process.

On the contrary, he usually gets the chance to repeat the process.

Case in point is the chief financial officer of Nortel Networks succeeding the president of Nortel after overseeing the largest corporate losses in history.

Furthermore, the board of directors of corporations remains constant from one disaster to the next. The CEO often takes the fall but he's provided with a handsome severance package despite the company's dismal results.

If a failed corporate executive doesn't get a second chance, it's because he doesn't need the work.

Re:The price of a free market

[gorilla]

Sometimes the exec gets a chance to jump just before the trouble hits. For example, if you are an exec in Lucent, you can jump to HP just before it's obvious that the paper earnings are artifically inflated because you're loaning customers money to buy equipment. Did I mention it was mainly her program?

Re:Those savings...

[WNight]

Simple. They'll sell their old licenses on eBay.

In a related story..

[jcr]

Linus was heard muttering: "Today Germany, tomorrow, the world!"

-jcr

OpenBSD?

[Dwonis]

Since SE-Linux isn't ready yet (and is far from being mature), maybe the .de parliament should examine OpenBSD as an option. After all, it's got integrated crypto and it's a solid, stable OS.

Of course, paying people to make Linux secure and solid would be fine, too. :-)

Re:Hooray for Germany!

[Zontar The Mindless]

Doesn't anybody have to take history classes anymore?

The bit about "from the Maas to the Memel" just might conceivably upset the Poles, Lithuanians, and Russians just a tad, considering that they acquired the bits of Germany east of the latter river and west of the Oder in 1945. Note that one of the prerequisites for German reunification was that united Germany was required to renounce for all time any claim whatsoever to those territories. In fact (IIRC) a clause stupulating this was added to the Grundgesetz (Basic Law, i.e. Constitution).

I suppose one could make a case for changing it to "from the Maas to the Oder" but I imagine it would still leave a bitter taste in the mouths of those whose nations were intended to provide Lebensraum in the Nazis' Drang nach Osten.

Re:Troll ... trawl ?

[Snootch]

Well, since you're being pedantic, I will be too :-)

I belive "troll" and "trawl" share a root. "Trolling" is a method of fishing, too. Sprang out of "trolling for newbies" on Usenet. The ogre-like creature is an added benefit :-)