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Ellison's ID Card Plan Gets More Attention
fredbox writes: "A Mercury News article reports Oracle CEO Larry Ellison and John Ashcroft have been meeting to discuss creation of a national ID database including fingerprints, facial scans, etc. Other supporters include Sen. Dianne Feinstein, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, Sun Microsystems CEO Scott McNealy. They claim these cards would be 'voluntary', much as the act of leaving your home or purchasing groceries are voluntary activities." Update: 10/18 01:48 GMT by M : Hah! btempleton writes: "Here is a prototype of Larry Ellison's new national ID card."
I'd rather just have a chip implanted in my neck. Or maybe a nice barcode tattoo.
I write trance music.
Voluntary? Whats the point then? A Drivers license is voluntary.
Yeah, it'll be really cute when you can't fly on a plane, ride a train, get a credit card, open a bank account, or get a job without one...
Not to mention have email...
Dear Mr. Ashcroft,
I would be willing to enroll in your new National ID program, surrending my fingerprints and facial scan in exchange for a sworn affidavit from you that the reources of the FBI will be spent chasing criminals and not harmless copyright infringement. That is to say, no more working for RIAA, MPAA, Adobe or any other monopolistic commercial interest.
Sincerely,
John Q Public.
Income-tax in Canada is also 'voluntary'.
If I'm really good and I turn in lots of bad, bad terrorists will the government bump me up to Platinum card status?
And if so, can I get mine with Pokemon or my favorite sport's team emblazoned across it?
And how many of those things (not counting email) do you do without using a driver's license or a social security number?
It's not about the cards. It's about the system.
This system would cost many billions of dollars to implement, and would give no real gain.
>creation of a national ID database including fingerprints, facial scans, etc.
:) )
ETC????
God what more do you want with that!? Anal probing? if so, I suggest Larry himself does the Quality Assurance testing part... you know... to be sure it gets it right the first time... maybe after a few dozens of tries (you know how buggy those things are), he'll resort to something less 1984-ish...
... then again, I know a lot of people that would stick anything "up theirs" to get a few M $ worth of contracts... some of you pervers reading this are actually doing it for free (or fun, you pick any
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
Just please educate me. What is so wrong about the card? If you would like to have an ID card, something that the US do _NOT_ have, and it carries your picture and your fingerprint, what again is so wrong with that. In my homecountry, Germany, you have to register with the city you live in, tell them where you live and, if you move, unregister with your old city and register in the new one. They can always track you. You have to have an ID card. It carries your address, height, weight, place of birth and your picture. If you move within the country (see above) you have to have it updated. True, it does not carry your fingerprint, but it has a nice little code that gets scanned when you travel by airplane, etc. It is compatible with the electronic readers at immigration that you guys might be familiar with. And I even think there is a fine if you do not carry it with you. So how is the proposed ID card so much different? I personally would like it if people have to register in a more thorough way if they travel with me on an airplane. Please do not get me wrong, systems can be abused and there are enough examples of that, but I do not see that coming with a national ID card system.
Voluntary... wonderful.
Of course jobs and colleges will eventually require them, so its only "voluntary" if you want to be uneducated and unemployed.. just like eating is a "voluntary" activity for people who don't want to live more than a couple weeks, I suppose?
I don't mean to sound like a troll, but I don't think calling this "voluntary" makes much sense.
--TheOrangeSquid Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive
Could someone in the press pleas at least ask the damn question? To wit: how exactly would these ID cards have prevented the events of 9/11? The terrorists didn't have to lie about their names to get on the airplanes, they just had to buy the tickets!
And the brethren went away edified.
It doesn't sound like too bad of an idea. The problem would come from the limitations of the system. Or more precisely, what it would limit people from doing. It may be voluntary to have such an ID card, but if it's too inconveniencing NOT to have one, it's essentially mandatory.
If it's simply for ID purposes in high-risk areas, then that's fine. If I want to get on board a plane filled with tons of jet fuel and with hundreds of other people, it's okay to check and see that I'm not "dangerous." (Who defines "dangerous" here, also?)
But if I'm going to go buy some liquor, cigarettes, pr0n, or _Catcher in the Rye_, I don't want to have to use my ID. I could care less about who knows I'm buying what, but do you REALLY need to know?
The other interesting point I'd like to bring up is: Fakes. How hard would these things be to fake? No matter how hard you try, someone with enough time and money will find a way to make a fake. I mean, there's high school kids with fake drivers licenses now.
Where the wind blows, the tumbleweed goes.
The basic premise of 'National ID' systems is that if we build a database of all law-abiding trustworthy citizens, anybody who does not exist in this database must be a 'prohibited person'.
This premise is also one of the biggest dangers of a national ID, and the primary objection raised by civil libertarians and the ultra paranoid.
The 'Brady Bill' background check law was written with a safeguard- all records of 'successful' checks were to be deleted. In reality, the Clinton administration ignored this limitation, holding records indefinitely.
The same sort of behavior can be expected regarding any safeguards built into a 'National ID' system.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
I know this may sound like a silly thing to quibble over in such an important plan, but I think we (like all special interest groups) have a right to be heard.
-- MarkusQ
P.S. I am quite relieved to see that they dropped the idea of trying to track mod-points real-time. That would have been a nightmare!
..Is somebody spreading this through the mail? How do you prevent forgery? Make a law against it? It's nice to know that 'our way of life' is being so staunchly defended by those that would have us bolted down, tattoed and tracked 'for our own protection'.
air and light and time and space
The cards also would be instantly checked against a new national database. That database would base would link existing criminal and immigration data to screen out potential terrorists.
But AFAIK, none of the terrorists HAD criminal records. They were perfectly good citizens as far as anyone knew up until getting on those planes. So criminal data's no good.
Ah, but they did just emigrate from Afghanistan, or Iraq. That would show up on the immigration data.
So what this suggests to me, is that if you've just immigrated from Iraq or Afghanistan, I'd be allowing another thirty minutes at the airport, to deal with all those 'are you a terrorist' questions. Because that's the only thing that separated all those terrorists from the rest of the travellers.
It'd be good to see a policy from the US that didn't assume that terrorists have a big flashing sign on their forehead that says "I AM A TERRORIST." Because that's how I think they're planning on telling Osama Bin Laden from all the other robed, bearded guys carrying AK47s in Afghanistan.
-- This post is about truth, beauty, freedom, and above all things, Karma
The best place is clearly in the right hand or in the forehead. This has been well documented for centuries.
Breakfast served all day!
When was the last time you heard of any US citizen being able to do much without presenting their social security number?
How long before Feinstein sells (ahem, I mean, "legislates") access to this database to major publishers and media conglomerates? After all, with all the talk of encryption crippling and government-mandated copy-prevention lately, perhaps the mysterious terrorists are financing their operations by selling bootleg DVDs (perhaps even with secret terrorist messages steganographically embedded in the signal! Gasp!) and using hacked no-back-door versions of commercial encryption software, so, just in case, we should probably let MPAA and BSA use the database to correlate with any 'suspicious' activity they might notice...
You know, as recent as a year or so ago, the above would have sounded like paranoid ranting to me. It worries me that it no longer does...
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
but what if something you say today, gets held against you in 5 years do to changing political climate?
What if something that you do now is legal, but becomes illegal, and the go after people retroactivly?(something ashcroft wants to do)
In America there was a period of time called Macarthism whre those very things happened.
The old, if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide adage has always led to abuse , and has given rise to dictorships.
This isn't theoretical, it has happened.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
On that note, does anybody know what kinds of legislative action really would be needed to put this together? It strikes me as requiring a pretty close-coupling of business and government interests, OR the federalization of a whole lot of currently private organizations.
-schussat
The hour of noon has passed. Let us go and get some Kentucky Fried Chicken.
Let me see if I get this straight.
We, the slaves, in order to more perfectly serve our corporate masters, consent by not doing anything to the removal of our constitutional rights to Liberty, Freedom, and the Pursuit of Happiness. In addition, we agree to the suspension of our constitutional rights to freedom from unusual search and seizure, the lack of proper posted warrants in the removal of those rights, and the extensions of patents and copyrights beyond the time periods specified in that Constitution.
I don't think so.
You have to fight for your right to party!
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
No matter what, after Sept. 11, there will be some serious security measures on airports and other problematic zones. These national ID cards are actually a convenient way how to avoid these. It will NOT cost money, it will actually save money, because the less people will go through these thorough checks every day, the less it will cost overall. The legislation that will place these checks in place is what takes your freedom, not this card. This card may make implementation of this new comming legislation economically possible. Thats it.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
That's what you think. By a strict definition of crime, that is, causing harm to another person (and even then "harm" is fuzzy), neither am I. But what about those web sites you visited lately? Slashdot is known as attracting quite the subversive crowd. And I'm sure that there might be something suspicious about that lye you bought a few days ago. You bought a copy of Fight Club, I see. Well, well, you also have bought a copy of the hacker OS linux? On top of all that, your grandfather is Arab! This isn't good at all; clearly something is going down. In the best interests of preserving our liberty and tradition of small-government, I'm detaining you indefinity on suspicion of being a terrorist.
I know, this post should probably be scored -1, redundant, but I had to post it. It's not the collection of the information that's the bad thing, it's the amassing of information in the hands of the paranoid that will result from this anti-terrorist initiative.
Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
If Ashcroft and Fienstien both like it, it HAS to be a REALLY bad idea. Come on, I can't think of many people who have worse records when it comes to undermining the Bill of Rights than those two.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
I don't really see the problem with such a system, per se. I do have a problem with the proponents of such a system being such unabashed opportunistic pigs. Remeber Oracle's haste to post their earnings after the WTC tragedy? For shame.
Look, you've got driver's licenses, social security numbers, fingerprints, license photos, criminal records, FBI records, etc. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to assemble and relate these components in a database.
This could be very useful. This could be abused. Sounds pretty much like any technical endeavor. Do we stick our heads in the sand, and hope the bogeyman will go away, or do we deal?
The problem isn't the technology, it's the abuse of technology. This is precisely why such systems shouldn't be trusted to proprietary vendors such as Oracle or Sun. Our government should not become beholden to anyone's private interests.
A national identity database would be an extraordinarily useful tool for law enforcement. Does it further empower our government? Of course it does. Of course such a system will need to be monitored and carefully crafted to prevent abuse. But that does not mean we have to go so far as to dismiss the idea entirely. Our government controls nuclear warheads also. Are you afraid that they will be dropped on your head? Call me crazy, but I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Just don't let Larry upgrade his Learjet with my tax dollars.
--Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
i jerk off a lot, its not illegal, but i dont want george bush to watch either.
"i was saying gnu-rd"
The card would contain basic information about the holder, including Social Security number, and would be linked to a federal database containing detailed personal data, including digital records of the person's thumbprint, palm print, face or eyes.
Later of course we could expand it for more specific information like your health records, financial status, political slant, religious affiliations and employment history. Of course you would not have to provide this to anyone else, but then again they would not have to hire you, provide products or services, and extend credit to you.
To handle these issues I am certain we will be asked to trust them. And should it prove to be an issue You they will take it up in a future bill.
I am reminded of the principle of SAM (Specific, Attainable, and Measurable). I then ask the simple question (the same I posed for cryptography "back doors"), "If this was in place on 9/11, would it have stopped the terrorists?" Ding-ding-ding, I am sorry, but at last count something like 14 of the hijackers were unknown to anyone. They would have had cards that allowed them to get on without an issue.
"But what about the others? They would have been stopped." No, they would not have been on to begin with, or they would have paid someone to create or reprogram cards.
So what will work? With regards to planes, no one on a plane will believe a hijacker is anything but suicidal. Even if they are not, and really just want money. Sorry, we are going to be looking out for ourselves and each other. The best security you can ever hope to find.
All of the terrorists were required to show valid ID to get on the plane. Most of them have VALID ID (would have had one of these cards issued by the government) and as a foriegn agent entering the country I don't see how this can be very difficult to get. For that matter, this would only cover US citizens, not visitors, people on short business trips (to get trained to fly planes maybe) or anything else...
What I do see this becoming is a simple way for the government to track me, potentially businesses tracking me (they will now have access to a single point of data on every trasaction now) as I purchase goods and services from them. How will I as John Q. Public, know that this database isn't hackable (remember brought to you by the people who brought you Oracle 11i), won't reveal more information to the person swiping the card than is needed (I mean just because I swipe, will that mean that my whole database file is available to the swipee ???) and the data in the database is accurate (who gets to put it in, do I get a chance to audit my file and replace inacuracies etc.) I just love having to deal with my credit card files now... What a pain
The proposal is meant for non-US citizens entering the United States. For US citizens it would not be mandated.
My own speculation here now, why would it be useful? Well, for one, if I recall correctly, 6 out of the 19 hijackers on September 11 were already listed on FBI/CIA watchlists. Yet they entered the country legally, using legal visas, bought airline tickets, did all their activities, and at no time during their daily activities they were flagged against these watchlists. The ID itself is secondary, but the principal goal is to have an efficient way to check a name against a database of suspects
Of course, there would be all sorts of ways your Average Joe Terrorist might go about avoiding these things, including a fake id. But that sort of stuff would have to be considered as part of the design. If this were to be done.
Benbox
not living in a police state where any petty official may demand "Zeigen Sie Ihre Papiere, Kameraden!".
Yes, systems can be abused,and in the long run, all systems will be abused. If we create the necessary infrastructure for the government and corporations to track us today, they may not use it for less noble purposes now. But under a more conservative administration, after a more distressing terrorist event, they will use the database we build today to empower the big brother of tomorrow.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. What's in it for him is a death-grip on the identities of the entire country. What's in it for him is becoming as important as a public utility, but having all the benefits of a for-profit corporation. What's in it for him is that this is the only way he'll ever get richer and more important than Bill Gates, and he's got a woody the size of Florida.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
If you push for this national ID card, I will give money to support the campaign of any person who runs against you.
I consider myself a liberal Democrat, but don't let that concern you. I will support your opponent regardless of his or her stances on any other issues, just as long as they advocate doing away with the national ID. They could be a member of the KKK an an advocate of dumping cyanide in our drinking water, and I'll still give them money.
Why, you ask? Simple: to punish you for selling the freedom of the people of the United States down the river.
Sincerely,
MAXOMENOS of Slashdot.
Finding God in a Dog
For your first l33t hacking job on this onerous and invasive abortion of an idea, I recommend cloning Larry Ellison's ID card.
Imagine the ease with which we can catch all terrorists and thugs since they'll all be named "Larry". What a great concept! Thanks for your assistance in this matter.
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
``Wouldn't you feel better if everyone who walked into an airport showed their ID card and put their thumb in the scanner and you knew they were who they said they were?''
No Larry, I would not feel better. I might feel safer, but not by very much. Besides, is what we want to feel better about flying, or do we want to feel safer about flying? Or do we want to actually BE safer while flying?
How about that for a novel approach? Instead of trying to get the public to be willing to board a plane, why not improve safety for real? Put those National Guardsmen to work checking bags.
Do you realize that STILL, 9 out of 10 checked bags are placed into the cargo compartment of commercial jets, without so much as a passing glance? It's true.
You can also STILL check a bag on a flight, and then not get on that flight, and your bag will be carried anyway. You think we were caught with our pants down on 9/11? What will our leaders tell us about air safety when the next attack is a classical bomb-in-checked-bag-but-terrorist-missed-flight, like the Lockerbie disaster?
Edith Keeler Must Die
Uh, no. That's unconstitutional, directly contradicting Article I, Section 9 of the United States Constitution regarding Congress:
No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
and Article I, Section 10 of the United States Constitution regarding the States:
No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.
Look up "ex post facto" if you haven't learned what it is in 11th grade Government class yet. I'm sure you completely hate Ashcroft and will criticize everything he does, but don't falsify what he wants. He's not out to throw out the Constitution. I don't always agree with what he says (I absolutely abhor the idea of a national ID card), but saying a remark like that is just ridiculous.
I'll agree. This is plainly inflammatory. You have no proof that Ashcroft wants to do anything but ensure the internal security of the United States. His is not the check. The Congress is. That is to say, he should want to go overboard, and have the Supreme Court and the Congress say what is or isn't legal.
And for all those who say, "has always led to abuse", please inform me of a free society which devolved into a dictatorship *after* national identity was required. The Nazis had it, but they were always fascists. The Russians had it, but they were always fascists/socialists (same deal, different words).
And who says that the National ID card is a means of spying? It's simply a way to conglomerate the vast amount of personal data on you (at the Credit Agencies, at the DMV, and at the hospital) which exists, and whose current diverse storage mechanism is hindering the efforts of those trying to root out terrorism.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, THINGS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CHANGE. How a National ID card takes away freedom is beyond me. You already have a Social Security Card. You already have a license. You already have all of these things. Why is this conglomerate card any different?
On the other hand, this sounds suspiciously like Revelation 13:16-17: "He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name."
If this war lasts 42 months I will be very very frightened.
Sure,
It may make you *feel* safe, but when it comes down to it, anyone with a card or a good eBay rating can really screw you over.
By all accounts, many of the terrorists were quiet, neighborly people. An ID card will only allow for these people to be registered. Secuirty is not something that exists. This card is just something to make us think that it does.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
Do I get a Yellow Card as a warning, and a Red Card when I'm about to be thrown out of the country?
sulli
RTFJ.
I do not know if alternate solutions can meet your criteria. Security and Freedom are mutually exclusive.
However, failing to have a better solution does not make this solution a good one. No more than telling you your house is in fire is useless unless I have a firehose. (You may still want to get out)
If we do not set a standard for what is acceptable, we will get the worst of all options. Unfortunately, in times of high stress, sound reasoning rarely prevails.
Not yet. As AT&T used to say, "You will".
This is a dangerous approach to take. If we actually need a 'National ID system' to solve a specific problem (many Americans are unconvinced) then it should be designed and implemented in such a way as to solve the problem at hand, with inherent safeguards to prevent abuse, now or in the future.
If we build a system that has the potential to be abused by individuals, by corporations, or by the state, then it will be abused.
As little trust I have in our current government, I have even less reason to trust in a future administration's response to future threats.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
AGENT #1: What were you doing on that plane.
TERRORIST: Nothing...
AGENT #2: Are you a Terrorist?
TERRORIST: Yes... err NO. Shit, I always get that one wrong.
Rod Taylor
As long as people are allowed to leave the country, most things are voluntary...
Perhaps a re-read of either my post or the Constitution is in order. Article I, Section 9 addresses Congress passing ex post facto laws, and Article I, Section 10 addresses the States' passage of ex post facto laws. Both realms of power are addressed under the Constitution.
Except that's not how the courts have interperated it in the past, or at least that's not how it has ever been used before. You'd have a hell of a uphill case to prove elsewise.
I'm sure you're going to mention that "separation of church and state" are also explicitly stated in the Constitution, but this isn't what we're talking about, I'm sure (if I'm imagining what issues you're digressing with Ashcroft about). "God Bless America", IMHO (and that's why I present this - it's an OPINION, unlike Article I, Section 9), is NOT a federal sponsorship of religion, and to do so is foolish.
Also, if you think it's not so ridiculous that he'd try to go against Article I, Section 9, please cite where you (and the original poster) get the idea that he'd like to start passing ex post facto laws. It seems to me that all you are trying to do is just criticize anything Ashcroft does because he's not on the same side of the political spectrum as yourself.
...unless you, the people, fight like grim death against it.
Here in Australia we had a proposal for the `Australia Card' -- basically the same as this proposal, only not as technologically sophisticated. It was put to the people's vote (referendum or an election issue? I don't remember) and the people's response was to tell the proposers how to fold it into sharp corners, and where to stick it afterwards. That's Ok, though, because then they introduced the Tax File Number, which is a wannabe SSN -- you need it to earn an income (failure to provide a TFN is not illegal, but automatically results in you being taxed at 49.5%), to open a bank account, or just about anywhere else where you are using money in a non-trivial way.
The TFN was possible because we (the Australian population) had just fought furiously and won against a more draconian scheme, and were tired. Also, this almost slipped under the radar without comment, as the parliament rushed it through with very little debate, in the house or in public.
This may turn out to be another High Aim Tactic. Ask for something which is absolutely ridiculous, and let yourself be beaten back to what you wanted in the first place. Even if Ellison is serious (surely not...?) his overtures can -- and probably will -- be used by others with the same barrow to push.
The question is where to draw the line. How much freedom from surveillance do you want? Once you have figured that out, don't settle for one jot less! As soon as you rationalise that `I don't really need to be able to X' and bargain away the right to be able to do so, then you have just lost something precious which you will never get back.
Of course, things are rarely that simple, and some things are obviously stupid. (Such as, eg, `I demand the right to stockpile Anthrax spores'.) But the apparatchiks will use these examples to persuade you that the right to freely assemble, for example, is just too dangerous for you to have. It will not be put to you like that. It will be that some travel may have to be restricted, or that restrictions based on profiling [Hmm, you have travelled in the middle east, your family name is arabic, and you talk funny...] will be instituted `for the time being'.
If history teaches us anything, it is that `for the time being' can be translated `for the foreseeable future', and that just means `until it is no longer profitable to do so'.
Wasn't it a Founding Father who said `the Price of Liberty is Eternal Vigilance'?
"This is a Hollywood movie: when it comes to the Laws of Physics, they're lucky if they get Gravity!" --- my wife
It is really sad to see the leaders of this country jumping onto any idea any joker out there proposes, especially one who stands to gain much power with his offering.
The USSR was always Socialist, the Nazis were always facist. Facism and Socialism are completely different on the political spectrum (everyone's "equal" in socialism, only the upper class has power in facism), but the original poster wasn't talking ideology behind the two governments, he was talking about implementation. In essence, both socialism and facism result in no freedoms for the people, despite their friendly definition.
...if this is some type of way for Oracle/Sun to head off part of Passport's raison d'etre. With a national ID card registry, building services on top of that database would be easier than building against a proprietary .Net architecture.
Ever lived in a college town? I know of lots of wine shops who check ID, um, less than vigorously. And I think it should stay that way!
sulli
RTFJ.
Has anyone read the FAQ on ID Cards?
d _faq.html
http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/idcar
Click for Larry's Card
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
Well, I'm sure you do too, and I'm sure plenty of people disagree with the Constitution (gun control advocates come to mind, but so do income tax abolitionists, or heck, even people who think 18 year olds shouldn't vote). That's okay. I can't fathom an example when Ashcroft has tried to use his disagreement with a position by the Constitution or any Amendment (note, I can't think of any disagreements with the Constitution that Ashcroft has). But if he were to do so, it would never get enacted into law, and if that happened, it would be overturned. Remember, checks and balances.
Now, since I have a keen ability to anticipate what liberals are thinking, I know exactly what you're thinking now. (DMCA!!) The problem is, in the eyes of the law (and by law, I mean the judges who interpret the law), reverse-engineering defenses and free speech on code was rejected. Remember, the First Amendment is explicitly vague in its definitions of speech, and almost every Supreme Court case has struck down cases of extreme matters of the First Amendment. I'm not saying I agree with the ruling, but it's not directly in violation of the Constitution (as the specific Amendment is open to interpretation).
The actual text of the Income Tax Act actually stipulates that payment of Income Tax is on a 'voluntary' basis.
WHta they don't do, of course, is define what 'voluntary' means.
It appears the normal interpretation means 'you are suppoed to file your taxes on your own.. if you don't, we'll do it for you'. ie: voluntary. I think that's wrong, though.
Secondly.. the Income Tax Act never received Royal Assent.. yet somehow it's considered law. To become law, a bill MUST have royal assent (signed by the Gov' General, ie: the Queen)
Thirdly.. the income tax act was supposd to be a temporary measure.
And since the at least one Supreme (Santra Day O'Connor) has indicated that "some freedoms will be lost" (or something like that); who's to say how things work out? After all, as a practical matter, the Constitution says whatever the Supremes say it says. Not what a plain common-sense reading of that document might say (this was already the case even before this new bill).
Right now, many of our elites (media, goverment, business) are scared shitless (in fact, more scared than the rest of us, since they have been explicitly targeted). They don't care about any damage to the fabric of our freedoms, they just want to be "safe".
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
An esoteric scratched itch:
Homeworld Map Maker Tool
Have a drivers license? Registered to vote? Registered for the draft? I rest my case. Whats one more little card we have to carry around going to matter?
Okay, what parts of the world produce the best expertise in fake IDs? Where is the best market for them? Do products follow their markets? How much can someone on the inside make for inserting a few dozen fake records? How much was bin Laden able to afford for pilot training?
Yup, those four guys ahead of you just zipped onto the plane because their cards were clear ... feel safe now?
Or would you rather have a system where trained government agents use their human intelligence to sort out who is suspicious? Idealism about "no racial profiling" is lovely. But you're about to get on that plane ...
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
``Wouldn't you feel better if everyone who walked into an airport showed their ID card and put their thumb in the scanner and you knew they were who they said they were?''
Where in the hell did this asinine premise that perps will behave as long as they've been positively identified come about?
Well, no. As it happens, the perps who attacked the WTC were NOT travelling incognito. As it happens, I *have* travelled under someone else's name in order to use a return ticket that they didn't need, which was no skin off anyone's nose, and certainly didn't present a danger to my fellow passengers.
If someone is willing to commit suicide, what in the world makes Ellison imagine that he can be deterred by having his name in a database?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
A man is on a train, reading his paper, sipping his coffee. A uniformed man with a gun and badge approaches him.
"ID card please."
"Excuse me, sir?"
"Your ID card please," he repeats with an gleam in his eye.
"I..I.. I think it's in my wallet, hold on." Man fumbles with his wallet as the uniformed man caresses the butt of his weapon.
"Ah, yes, this is it." The man hands it over tot he uniformed man, who checks it over.
"Where are you going, sir?"
"Well, I don't see how that's any of your business-"
"EVERYTHING is my business, sir. I'm trying to protect America from terrorists. So, WHERE are you going?"
"Why, that's preposterous! I don't have to answer that! Ever since Black Tuesday, our freedoms have been taken from us! Why, we used to never have to have our ID cards and an approval stamp to travel across the state!"
"That's enough of that!" Uniformed man blows his whistle and pulls out his gun.
"No, people, can't you understand! Help me! Help yourselves! We're being taken over by fascists! Help--"
The man falls limp. The Uniformed man wipes the butt of his weapon ont he man's shirt, after having used it as a club. The other people in the car pretend not to see anything.
"Yes sir, God Bless America. These terrorists are just like Pokemon, gotta catch em all."
Another uniformed man is going through the man's luggage.
"Hey, Joe, look at this. His laptop runs Linux. Yep, he's a terrorist all right."
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
We've already had ex post fact laws passed and *enforced* in this country, so don't imagine that just because the constitution prohibits them, that it won't happen.
For another example of blatant disregard for the Constitution, have a look at the "Gold and Silver" clause.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I'm concerned about the vast information available to authorities ALREADY at the local level without tapping the ridiculous amount of potentially derogatory or negatively influential information available to federal agencies.
This issue comes up again and again when police officers are asked to consider criminal records when taking actions for otherwise minor infractions. This scares me on Orwellian levels. How can anyone expect fair treatment from authorities when now the federal government can be expected to constantly track their movements? What kind of information do local authorities really need to be able to tap in to? Racial profiling was bad, eh? Try criminal profiling. The answer isn't "if you aren't doing anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about." The probative value of having a federally-endorsed NATIONAL database of citizens including all types of unspecified information is FAR outweighed by the potential negative impact on the common citizen. Filing "suspicions" of criminal involvement in a database that you have no right to view is pretty fuckin scary, if you ask me.
Making an important decision with very long-term and very serious repercussions when one is scared shitless is not a good idea.
Now that we've been nastily welcomed to the real world, the US public is generally scared shitless (and violently angry, and etc). Rather than demanding that our reps do something, anything, ASAP, this is when they should be moving most carefully.
"A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures." - Daniel Webster
Tell that to everyone who doesn't have access to music from the twenties, thirties, and forties, because they retroactively changed the term of copyright.
The lawyers make the claim (I will not call it "Jesuitical" because they do not deserve that kind of insult) that the prohibition of "ex post facto" only applies to criminal law. Somehow they're inventing extra words I can't find in the Constitution.
According to them, as long as they don't make it a criminal offense, it's perfectly OK if they impose a ten million dollar excise tax on your behavior, ten years after the fact.
We once had a Constitutional republic, a government of laws not of men. Now we have a tyranny of lawyer-politicians.
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
"both socialism and facism result in no freedoms for the people"
Have you ever been to Sweden? Heard of it? It's a country with lots of beautiful women and a democratically elected socialist government that is ultra-liberal in some respects, and amazingly middle-america-ish in others. There's not a lot of War Communist stalinist policy flying around.
My Karma is so good, I'm the Dalai Lama...or something.
...they hate the competition.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Your SSN is also known as your TaxPayer Identification Number. This number is necessary for a job so your employer can file your income taxes withheld and your Social Security payments correctly. If you have an interest bearing account at a bank, the bank must file with the government the amount of interest you earned (over $10) through the year, again needing your SSN (TIN).
Credit Reports are filed under SSNs, which I think is a bad idea.
Of course my father is retired Army. It took while after he retired to get used to NOT having an ID card.
Linux User #296508 Get Counted!
Huh? Huh? Can I?
...on second thought high slashdot karma might be considered an indicator of reactionary thinking and be an indicator of a propensity to commit acts of "terrorism" (such as stealing MP3's or DoSing RIAA).
BTW Brad Templeton's sample Larry Ellison card has his mother's maiden name as (unwed)...does that mean he's a bastard in more ways than just his attitude?
You're using her as bait, Master!
What is the point in this proposal? Is it to make the country more secure against illegal aliens that might be dormant terrorists? Is it to prevent criminals from usurping other people's ID?
If these are indeed the goals, then I'd suggest to take a look at developed countries that already have implemented nation-wide ID cards. Namely, Europe. Why, it's fascinating.
Because you see, illegal immigration is totally out of control in Europe. As for terrorism, Spain (Basque Separatist movements), France (Corsican Separatists, Basques, Muslims), UK (IRA), as well as Greece, Italy and Germany have had severe terrorist attacks in the 1990s in spite of strict ID card policies.
How come these countries can harbor terrorists in spite of mandatory ID cards, you ask? It's because ID cards are not a silver bullet against crime. First, they can be forged. Always. France recently replaced its obsolete ID card with an embossed, hologramed, specially printed ID card, the deployment of which was a very expensive program. All this achieved was to raise the cost of a fake ID to about 5000FF ($600-700) on the black market. The best forgeries come of course from corrupt officials who fabricated cards with fake IDs using the state-approved machines.
So unless you have totally non-corrupt officials, all you're going to achieve is put terrorism out of reach of poor students. That's a tempting solution considering what is said in some literature circles after a few vodkas. But I don't think it will be the best one.
Look at Europe, for Heaven's sake, because they already did all the stupid things before us!
--
Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/
I submitted this story long before this one got posted, it was denied in about 5 seconds, what's up with that? The only difference was that I wasn't slamming the idea of a voluntary national ID card (because it doesn't bother me, since privacy is a myth). I was concerned about the fact that although Larry Ellison was offering Oracle software for free, the government would still have to pay for upgrades and maintenance. Quote "I don't think the government has any trouble paying for the labor associated with the software." Beware of geeks bearing gifts, as they say...
But I guess if you aren't a knee-jerk libertarian on the right stories you don't get posted. It's hardly news to say it, but slashdot is definitely biased. It ain't just the stories, it's the stories you choose to run...
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
That'd be a plus, especially for the afternoon commute (and other times),like when that asshole cuts you off, then immediately jams on his brakes and signals a left turn (-1) or that idiot that forgot to turn off his cell phone before coming into the theatre (-2) or...
You're using her as bait, Master!
Uh-huh, right after the war on drugs.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
How does one equate the proposal of a national database comprised of information already available at the state level with allowing searches of a person and/or his property without a warrant?
Seriously, I do not see why the national ID card is so objectionable.
I also do not see how it would help either.
To maximize the usefulness of the National ID card it pretty clear it should have a smart chip embedded. That way airport security / police officers / DMV / IRS agents / toll booths / librarians can simply wave your ID cards over a reader to automatically access any personal data they think might useful. If it is decided that you are a hijacker / criminal / overdue parking tickets / toll dodger / overdue books then that duely authorized government representative can immediate update the data on your ID card to appropriately deny you the right to access the relevant services.
As an interactive digital device, all ID cards will naturally be required to include RIAA/MPAA approved Digital Rights Management Technology.
3 months later...
Heay - wait a minute! When did all of my CD's, my walkman, library withdrawals, video rentals, fax, copier, camcorder, cell phone, and my computer operating system become keyed to my ID card?
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
It's the sound of the American far right. They're shooting target practice. Maybe Bin Laden was right--we will create more Usamas. It's just that we won't create them in the Middle East. We will create them in our own back yard. Anybody wanna go into the mountains of Wyoming, Idaho, Montanna, and West Virginia to fingerprint them Bible-believin', gun-toten, God-fearen' good-ol boys and give them a number so that they "may neither buy nor sell"? Volunteers? Janet Reno? Anybody?
Maybe some wealthy Saudis will end up funding our mujahidin. Yes!!! Now it all makes sense. Their plan is for that to happen, so that the Arabs can experience "blow-back". Wow! It's pure genius. Carry on, fellas.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
You have a point, but so did my message, thus my message was not flamebait.
Actually, one person wasted their modpoint by modding the post down as 'flamebait' where they would have been better served by modding your comment up.
The situation friday2k describes sure sounds like a police state to me: (emphasis mine)
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
In the works of Robert Heinlein, "When a society reaches the point where it requires an ID card of all its citizens, it's time to find a new planet."
Damnit! We need another planet!
Reboot macht Frei.
"I think 99.99 percent of Americans will want these ID cards," Ellison said. "Wouldn't you feel better if everyone who walked into an airport showed their ID card and put their thumb in the scanner and you knew they were who they said they were?"
No. I would feel exactly the same. How is knowing the true identity of a person going to guarantee you that they're not a suicide terrorist? It doesn't. I don't really appreciate it when a multi-billionaire with vested interests tries to guess what me, Mr. Joe Schmoe, wants. Hell, if Ellison manufactured door locks, he'd probably lobby to get door locks for all the cockpits. That I might support.
"There has to be some ID," Feinstein said. "We have had a major catastrophe. This is a very serious time. The country is at war. The purpose here is to protect ourselves."
I don't know if Swine-stein could have made any less sense. How does being at war, seriousness of the times, or need for protection equal a need for identification? One, we aren't at war. Two, today is no less/more serious than two years ago. Three, who needs protection, Members of Congress? I don't feel any need to be protected.
Maybe we should lock all members of Congress into an air tight room for their safety. When they start kicking off, we would hold elections. You solve a lot of problems that way. You get term limits, you ensure that only the most dedicated people run, and you don't have goofballs like Swine-stein making assinine proposals because she's scared of the bogeyman.
Rotenberg and other opponents, including the American Civil Liberties Union, worry it could be required to board buses, apply for jobs, or even enter cities facing terrorist threats.
But supporters say those concerns are overblown.
Yes. Corporations and the government have never abused the power that we relinquished to them. Never ever.
"I've had a military ID card since I was a cadet at West Point and I haven't lost any freedom," [Schwarzkopf] told a cheering crowd.
Right. And I suppose being in the military wasn't a restriction of freedom. You're the property of the United States, and you get to be an unwitting guinea pig for exciting new drugs like LSD and who knows what else. And of course people cheered. Who could boo the Gerber baby?
"Four Arab-looking guys reading the Koran are much less suspicious if they have the cards and can just slash them through card readers," [Dershowitz] said.
Four arab-looking guys reading the Koran are much less suspicious if you get your head out of your ass and realize that the arab-terrorist to arab-non-terrorist ratio is extremely low. If the average American would talk to more than the 3 people he sees at the water cooler everyday, he might realize that there's a whole world of non-threatening people out there.
Ellison said that if he does donate the software, maintenance and upgrades won't be free.
I'll give you some crack, but I won't support your habit. Thanks. Now I don't have to buy anything from Oracle anymore. Makes my life simpler.
In vaguely related news , don't bother mailing your Congressman about this as he's not going to open it anyway. He'll either get 'Net-savvy or just ignore his constituents (as usual).
Ack! Thppt!
"I think 99.99 percent of Americans will want these ID cards"
... after we make them mandatory for obtaining any form of food, water or shelter."
Hey Ellison, don't drop your crack pipe!
Next time, quote a remotely believable number; 99.99% means 1 in 10,000. This would make ID cards the most decisive decision in the history of mankind.
Hang on, oh now I get it, he must have left something out. What he was going to say was, "I think that 99.99% of Americans will want these cards
Yet, even under these circumstances 99.99% is a stretch. Far more than more than 1 in 10,000 people would choose to die rather than get an ID just so they could survive. (This is very likely given that in 1999 0.01% of Americans were successful in their decision to not continue with life.) That 99.99% must also not include those whom were issued a faulty ID and slowly died of starvation while Ellison and Co. were busy trying to find and correct the error.
I submit that a national ID would, in the end, prove disasterous for Oracle. Does Ellison have any idea how much a universal ID would *reduce* the demand for databases? The database industry is as large as it is because of data redundancy. Every business or government agency that wants to store peoples' information has to store the same stuff such as name, address and phone number. With a national ID a lot of this redundant information would be eliminated. Does Ellison think he will make more money selling fewer, albeit bigger, systems to the govenment? I can't think of a situation where the profit margin improves when more companies chase fewer customers. I would think data storage companies would oppose a national ID for the same reason. Conversely, one of the biggest benefactors would be the telco's and telecom equipment makers since everybody would now just "dial in" for the info they needed.
And finally, if we do get a national ID forced upon us, I'd really like to see somebody get a hold of Ellison's and Feinstien's ID number and post it all over the world. The next thing I'd like to see is myself sitting on the jury.
Count one. Not guilty.
Count two. Not guilty.
I see all these "Bush looks like a Chimp" pages, but looking at that faked up card (which is IMHO quite funny) makes me realize just how much dear old Larry looks like one.
Let's see some "Larry Ellison... or CHIMP?" pages, people!
-Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
What did you expect? It seems that all of the "intellectuals" in America are either ignorant about history, or worse, know full well about what has happened in the past, and somehow delude themselves (And hence, much of America) into believing that "This time it'll be different. We've learned from this mistake" -- and then go and make the same mistake, the same way.
And what's worse, is an even larger number of people in America don't even bother to learn history, believing it to be completely irrelevant to their lives. So, they trust these people on TV (Whether some so-called intellectual, or the reporter) because they must know what they're talking about, they don't interview the clueless. So they are led like sheep-- straight into a mistake centuries old, known and documented.
I truly do pity people who somehow believe that 'humanity has evolved' since then. The only thing that's changed is the technology-- but people still do the same rotten things to each other, for the same reasons, and use the same sad excuses. (Kill your neighbor, terrorize the town, and claim it's 'god's will' that these things be done.)
No religion can claim to be exempt from this; saying that your deeds are "gods will" is as old as any concept of religion. And religion is not the only scapegoat used to hide behind.
Take "National Security" for example. Such things as an ID card may actually help; but at what cost?
And, finally, some forgotten massacres in history that many "intelectuals" choose to forget, ignore, and then eventually fight to allow in the name of peace:
13 Million Armenians: The Turks roughly during the peroid of World War I (Who still talks nowdays of the extermination of the Armenians? -- Adolf Hitler)
6 Million Jews, 6 Million additional "unwanted" others: Nazis during World War II.
Up to 40 Million (estimated): Stalin and Soviet Union's hospitality.
Between 32.25 and 61.7 million people --Mao Zedung (or whatever you spell it like) According to a 1971 report by the US Judiciary Comittee. (estimate started in 1949) Current estimates are higher.
8 Million Cambodians: 1975-1979. Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge. After the Vietnamese chased Pol Pot & Co. to Thailand, many western contries (Including the US, Canada, and Japan) supplied the thugs with food, shelter, and health care.
500,000 dead Hutus: Killed by the Tutsis starting during 1971 in Rwanda and Burundi. It took 15 years for anybody to give it much attention.
Croatia and Serbia -- No complete record exists.
Pacifists and intellectuals will gloss over these, and lie to try to convince you to join their cause. It's the same old story. It's happened before. It will happen again. Humanity has not evolved.
Just as some are trying to convince you that a National ID is a 'good thing', people have made very similar arguments for the massacres listed above.
Learn history for yourself, and do what you can to educate others. Please.
-- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
All this achieved was to raise the cost of a fake ID to about 5000FF ($600-700) on the black market. The best forgeries come of course from corrupt officials who fabricated cards with fake IDs using the state-approved machines.
My goodness... physical security is not a good means of preventing copying. A well run ID system with enough memory on the card to do real cryptographic signatures would provide both security and tracability making forgeries nearly impossible to do.
A good ID card would contain a very small memory chip on it which contained a cryptographically signed message including the person who issued the ID, expiry time, issue time, distinguishing characteristics and possibly a photograph that was directly linked to a read-only id number embedded on every card to prevent the transfer of the information and signature to another card.
Information about each applicant would be captured on a machine which generated it's own cryptographic signature to ensure tracability. If in the case of a falsified record being entered into the system, you could expire every single ID card on the back-end and require each applicant to come back in.
You of course make providing false records a felony in federal courts punishable by a hefty amount of jail time.
These kinds of cards could eliminate drivers licenses and social security cards and as long as there was no physical printed number on the card itself and the readers for such cards were only issued to specific areas (aiports, police cars, etc), corporate interests would not be able to ask you for the information.
The only way to forge this particular type of cards requires either cracking the key, social engineering or some level of corruption.
Cracking the key is unlikely, but the nice thing about a realtime lookup system is you can do things like revoke CA keys and make IDs invalid. You then proceed to stagger the issue of cards with different signing keys so that the number of cards you'd invalidate if worst came to worst would be kept to a minimum.
Social engineering is a problem, but again, with a nice lookup system you could not ever get two IDs with different names. Once you registered, your biometic information would be checked against a master database to insure you haven't registered before. Obviously, registering under the wrong information the first time would lead to some rather nasty concequences down the road in case you actually wanted to have a life.
Corruption is a harder problem to deal with, but as stated before, revoking cards is not a problem with this type of system. You also have a nice paper trail which would make corruption very risky. Obviously paying the people who have control over the system well would help immensely.
The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
What if something that you do now is legal, but becomes illegal, and the go after people retroactivly?(something ashcroft wants to do)
Sorry. That is unconstitutional and probably would not hold up in court. The constitution is very clear that new crimes cannot be prosecuted retroactively (whether they can be re-sentences, as in the ATA act, is another story).
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
``I don't think the government has any trouble paying for the labor associated with the software,'' he said. ``I made this offer not because the government can't afford to pay for the software, but because I shut up the critics who were saying, `Gee, Larry Ellison wants to build a national database because he wants to sell more databases,' which is pretty cynical and bizarre. What's in it for me is the same thing that's in it for you: a safer America.''
Hmmm... Oracle has a reputation for selling broken software at a loss and then charging LOTS of money on services, maintenance, and upgrades... Donated Oracle licenses are about like money donated by the mob....
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Just don't let Larry upgrade his Learjet with my tax dollars.
Does anyone else feel a tad nervous about a jet aircraft in the hands of a known narcissistic scofflaw? How much fuel does that thing carry, anyway?
How do we know he's not going to crash it into a football stadium if he gets in a snit the next time Bill makes ten billion more than he does?
I remember Dennis Miller saying that Bill Gates is just a persian cat and a monocle short of being the villain in a James Bond flick, but Ellison worries me far more.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Pull your head out of your ass you moron. Freedom? Highschool kids going through metal detectors in school? 3 times more lawyers than engineers? Corporate States of America? Get mugged once a week, and killed every other month? Free speech gets you in jail because of whatever DMCA related bullshit corporate-sponsored law?
A long long time ago, when you made beautiful cars and put men on the moon and the American Dream actually meant something, yes, then you inspired people. Right now, noone wants to go NEAR the US and we're just waiting for it to implode and hope it will do as little damage to the rest of the world as possible.
And PS, if a German politician would go on TV *nowadays* and say "yeah we bombed the UN, the Red Cross and various civilians and 10 years after the Gulf War we STILL cant make a smart bomb smart enough to not miss by a mile sometimes but hey, them's the breaks" he'd be lynched on the streets. It's your "our civilians are worth inifitely more than yours" attitude that guarantees you will be haunted by terrorism until you get your act together.
Terrorists dont fear freedom, and are not jealous of it. What you sow you reap. And you've sown an awful lot of hate. Now you're reaping. And you know what? You haven't even *started*.
When was the last time any of you checked the personal databases that are on you?
Social Security, your Credit report. Both are guarenteed to have errors, your credit report is guarenteed to have huge errors.
Get those errors fixed? No way bucko. You have to spend almost a year to fix a credit report, getting something removed is like pulling teeth, adding a black bark against anybody? super easy to do, you can do it yourself for about $125.00 at any credit reporting agency, they dont even ask for proof.
Your criminal record, (Yes everyone has one, just most are blank) get something errornous reported there? hell to get it removed, and then wait years for that information to trickle down. One friend of mine has the same name as a dude in a different county that likes to drink and race cops. it was wrongly reportd on my friends report, and then finally deleted. This was 5 years ago, he applied for a security job and was sent away for felony convictions that wre still on his report that were supposedly cleaned. (background check companies, BUY the database and never maintain them.)
No thank you, if all of slashdot doesn't start civil unrest over this "national card" mail thousands of letters to every government official and basically scream in the streets that we will be looking for senators heads if this even get's entertained then all is lost.
Oh wait this is slashdot, all is lost. Not one of you will waste your precious time to write a letter, email AND call/fax all your represenatives and the president,vice president.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
A NATIONAL ID CARD SYSTEM WOULD NOT HAVE PREVENTED THE ACTS OF SEPTEMBER 11th!
I think you're the one missing the major point here. The purpose of this is not to stop the acts of September 11th. Nothing can stop the acts of September 11th, they already happened. Feel free to discuss this on its own merits, but don't throw up some strawman about something that this wasn't designed to stop.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
Great! You might then expect the current INS data to do the trick. No need for a new ID card, right? The fact that the INS can't make good use of the data they already have is not convincing evidince that further intrusions will help.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Larry Ellison penned an editorial in the Wall Street Journal last week, and it made it to today's free web-based opinion page, Opinion Journal. You can find it here. He makes the argument that everyone's tracking us anyway, so why not just compile it all into one database? Thanks, Larry, but no thanks.
I'm a Canadian student doing an internship in the US.
My proof of eligibility to work requires the presentation of ALL of:
Stamped Canadian passport.
Letter paper sized form.
Entry card (conveniently bigger than my passport)
Social Security card
Confirmation letter from visa sponsor.
Confirmation letter from host company.
The piece of paper alone costs $500 to replace. The entry card is irreplacable. The passport requires visiting the embassy.
If they got a national card that can functionally replace these in the US, plus using my fingerprints to prevent it from being usable by a thief, I'd be first in line!
Gimme one!
"Pull your head out of your ass you moron. Freedom? Highschool kids going through metal detectors in school? 3 times more lawyers than engineers? Corporate States of America? Get mugged once a week, and killed every other month? Free speech gets you in jail because of whatever DMCA related bullshit corporate-sponsored law?"
I never said things were perfect. But that is why we have a Supreme Court. Eventually screwed up stuff like that gets to them, and a level head prevails, and things straighten out. Some things take time. As far as muggings and killings go, those happen everywhere.
"A long long time ago, when you made beautiful cars and put men on the moon and the American Dream actually meant something, yes, then you inspired people. Right now, noone wants to go NEAR the US and we're just waiting for it to implode and hope it will do as little damage to the rest of the world as possible."
We inspired people then? When Joe McCarthy was ruining lives of numerous people by accusing them of communism and blacks were second-class citizens? America is now more free than ever. As for people not wanting to get near the US, ask our coast guard and border patrol about that, they spend billions of dollars a year keeping people out because we have more immigrants trying to get in than the country can handle.
"
And PS, if a German politician would go on TV *nowadays* and say "yeah we bombed the UN, the Red Cross and various civilians and 10 years after the Gulf War we STILL cant make a smart bomb smart enough to not miss by a mile sometimes but hey, them's the breaks" he'd be lynched on the streets. It's your "our civilians are worth inifitely more than yours" attitude that guarantees you will be haunted by terrorism until you get your act together."
If another group of people threatens us, our civilians ARE worth more than theirs. Our lives and freedom are no good to us if we allow ourselves to be the victims of terrorism. European and Asian nations have long tried negotiating with terrorists and their supporters, and it never stops anything. If the only way to protect ourselves is to stop worrying about our enemies lives, and the lives of those unfortunate enough to be caught inbetween, so be it. Better them than me.
That said, we often do put ourselves in harm's way for others. We went into the Persian Gulf to help our Kuwaiti Allies retake their nation from the forces of a tyrant. We went into Somalia, trying to save the lives of the poor and helpless, because we could not bear to watch them starve when renegades and warlords stole the food we sent there, and we left because they decided killing our soldiers was more important than eating. Against the wishes of many nations, and our own people, we went to Bosnia/Croatia/Serbia to save the lives of muslim civilians from a holocaust by a lunatic tyrant mafia leader, and people hate us for it. No nation on earth gives more money, food, and jobs to foreign civilians than ours.
"Terrorists dont fear freedom, and are not jealous of it. What you sow you reap. And you've sown an awful lot of hate. Now you're reaping. And you know what? You haven't even *started*."
Keep dreaming. Terrorists hate the US because we give the people they try to opress a bastion of hope. These fanatics try so hard to quash those who do not agree with them in their own countries, and yet still cannot crush their spirits. When it comes to freedom, there is no greater symbol of freedom. So they attack us, call us dogs, burn our flag, all to try and make us look weak. Instead our armed forces will show them the true meaning of weakness. Terrorists will know weakness when we cut them down in droves with our guns and bombs. Our special forces agents will exploits their weaknesses when they silently slit throats of terrorist guards, slipping into mountain caves to destroy the cowardly terrorist leaders, who hide away because they know that their lives are running short. And the rest of the world shall know strength, because they will benefit from this. At some point, people will no longer try to take hostages in European hotels. India will not release murderous terrorists to placate airline hijackers. Suicide bombers will realize that their leaders are unconscionable madmen. America's strength will be shown to the world, and used to protect the world.
Pretty much. If we really wanted to, we could have colonized the entire middle east and destroy anyone who tried to stop us (And no, we would not get vaporized back because the French and the Russians would not give a good goddamn if we colonized half the planet, as long as we left them alone.).
This is a great improvement over the old days, when it took a lot of inking, cutting, and retouching to convert someone into a non-person.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
fascists/socialists (same deal, different words)
Can someone mod this ignorant McCarth-ite off as flaimbait.
For fuck's sake, he's quoting the goddamned bible. Your valuable and important opinion is based on what? Faith? Unquestioned belief in a moral structure, a mythos, that your told not to challenge? A set of ideas that you were born into? Wouldnt your opinion be different - and your conviction equally adament - if you had been born a Hindu or Muslim? You think your fairy-tales hold any weight in any relevant realm? ARE YOU INSANE! All cultures invent religion - its a natural response to explain away the world you dont understand - as our culture has matured, a great deal of people (30% in N.A.) have relized they *cant really* believe in these fairy tales any more than SantaClaus - and you want to use it as a self-evident truth to shore up your arguments... Here's what that should have read:
Revelation 13:16-17: "He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. Believe. Have faith. Do as your told."
For this is the word of God... hehehehehahahahhehehahehahehhahe really man, do you believe this stuff?
If this war lasts 42 months I will be very very frightened.
Im scared that ignorant, scared-of-the-dark morons like yourself walk amoungst the rest of us. Ever hear of The Crusades? The Inquisition? Catholics are in no position to be smug at present day Radical-Islam, the present is no different than the past: Cult-followers dilluted to the point of hysteria.
"The world will never be free until the last king is strangled in the entrails of the last priest." Diderot
"History shows no example of a free and priest-ridden people." (sic) - ?Unknown? (Jefferson?)
Go Cats!
Oh, and a sports fan too.... perfect. You just love those MentalMcNuggets for the Masses eh, how 'bout this one, ever hear of the guy who got a rat in his kentucky-fried-chicken? Yeah, its true. Did you know that Microsoft and Nike are conducting a test of Email systems? They will track every email you send, and give you $22311231.01 for EACH EMAIL! I know! Its true, I got a check for $123121231.2121 yesterday!
Mod me off as flaimbait, ill just repost this - Ive got Karma to burn, and this issue, which is; the fact that as long as their are "organized religions" - ALL FORMS - will only guarantee a future of radical-WTC-bombings-and-other-bullshit..
Dont agree? What is the difference between The Crusades and al Qaeda?
Im sorry, but once I hear someone has faith - in any religion (save a few without the fairy-tale-dogma) i cannot listen to him - my mind races about the FOUNDATIONS of his decisions, his justification and his ability to reason. I honestly feel that when I hear something like this above, that my taking this person seriously would be like my taking advice from a paranoid-schitzophrenic(sp) whos talking to himself on the street.... he has about as much attachment to reality, and equal amounts of credibility.
Whenever a driver's license is accepted for ID, a non-driver ID from the DMV is also accepted (except for where proof of driving privilege is required - it is proof of identity). The non-driver ID is just like a drivers license, except it does NOT grant one the right to drive.
Anyone that doesn't have a drivers license can get a non-driver ID, even if they have are too young, blind, never passed a test, or have been convicted for driving 100 mph in a school zone, while drunk and on speed, 6 dozen times.
So people without a drivers license have the ability to get a proof of identity that is just as good - that's how many non-drivers get beer and other things they need ID for.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
For tracking purposes, yes. It's absolutely absurd to think that with current technology you can track an entire populous through every action that they do. 350 million rows a week. That seems like a lot, over a month we have 1.5B. Now, for it to be real tracking software you really do need to have some trend data don't you? So it's hard to come up with a weeding algorithm. And, how big are each rows.. well, you'd have to link to every store in america or keep replicating store information.
Besides, the Veriphone processing system is more of a distributed history system. All they do is just collect numbers and bill. Providian, Aria, Capital One, etc are the ones who actually track. This reduces the load down significantly. Which, in analogy, is the same system we have now. Every state is a different credit card processing company. Now, tell me how a centralized database system that grows by over a billion rows a month is supposed to be managed.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Seriously though, why not?
I think that it's pretty obvious that there are tons of wonderful reasons why we should be opposed to these cards. I'm opposed to them from a moral, civil liberties, and privacy standpoint. The government already knows more about me than they should. And big business knows even more about me than the government! Why?
How much extra effort would it take for those airlines to run a second check against their own internal databases when you scan your card? Now big business has a record of your travelling, and they can market to you just like they do in grocery stores who use the club cards. Next, the grocery stores abandon club cards in favor of governemnt ID cards because they'll want an extra level of ID verification before accepting your check or your (possibly stolen) credit card. The potential abuses for this are endless, just like they were for the SSN cards.
If you really want this idea to be killed before it ever gets off the ground, we have to turn the majority of the American population against it, and make sure that they are vocally opoosed to it. Now I'm not a religious man by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think that we could potentially use the "crutch" of religion to fight this issue.
All you would have to do is convince some large, gullible religious groups (Jerry Falwell's church, the Southern Baptists, etc...) that this ID card is the "Mark of the Beast" from the bible, and blammo! They'll all oppose it with every ounce of their being. Not only that, they'll oppose the election of candidates that support such "evil plans". Granted, the average Slashdotter is probably not likely to want to align themselves with fundamentalist religious groups, but I think that this is one case where we can use the enemy against itself and actually win!
So what do you think?
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Not really - it's too slow. A card with an embedded chip can be scanned in an instant, but PCR and electrophoresis and/or sequencing would take hours, at best. Plus, what do you do about hemophiliacs? "How were we to know he'd bleed to death while we waited for the sequencing to finish? We thought he was just resisting because he was a terrorist..."
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
So, you're accepting it as given that this national ID card system was NOT designed to stop plane hijacking terrorist acts. What the FUCK is it designed to stop then??
I don't think it's really designed to stop anything as much as save money rather than tracking people through completely unintegrated DMV records in the individual states. Could a national ID card system stop some terrorist acts? Yes. Will it stop all of them? No. Nothing will. What I don't understand is what the problem is with it. Assume it's only given to people who already have ID anyway, such as a drivers licence or non-driver ID card.
The fingerprinting part I think is bad though, because that's not already out there.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
Good thing our old pal Larry's offering to give the DB away for free. Oracle is fine for general purpose DBs, but really sucks at high-end data warehouse apps like this. Hm... maybe we should all lobby the govt to run it on big Windows server farms too! Nothing to worry about then, it'll be going up and down faster than a bridegroom's bum!
The next thing you know, we might turn around and demand that every world citizen have to have one of OUR ID cards, because they are so cool and high tech and all. We'd have all kinds of reasons, probably backed up by more terrorist attacks, but the bottom line would be that we would be presenting the world with an ultimatum, while it looked down the barrel of our military force and observed the twitchiness of our collective trigger finger.
The LAST thing we need is more defenses for Bunker USA. The LAST thing we need is support for our tendency to be the empire builder. And this is antithetical to our dearest values anyhow- hell, we were formed through _rebellion_ against an Empire, and now the best we can do is attempt another one? What the hell does that have to do with liberty?
I think that at least some of the resistance to this idea comes not from ignorance, but from self-understanding. We're good at a lot of things, we Americans. But we're not wise. But we sure have a lot of energy. Now we have ten times the energy and hysteria that we used to have, and a bunch of vulturelike capitalist types trying to invent information systems to make us feel safer- and also to get much more detailed control and surveillance over our lives, for the sake of that one guy who might be a terrorist undercover. Look at our history, at what even our Presidents have done to seek control (I'm thinking Nixon here, primarily).
If we have surveillance over all aspects of our lives, I want it to be some British person, quieted by the knowledge of lost empires, taking a more Continental pace, a more England-sized ambition to the job. I do NOT want our own merry little capitalists and politicians, hot for empire and world domination, manning the cameras and policing the checkpoints, and neither should you- because I'm telling you, what gives you the idea it would stop there, within our borders?
After the terrorist attacks on the WTC, I got to see some of my fellow Americans, not wise ones but not monsters either, talking with perfect poise and seriousness about the desirability of our invading Canada and Mexico to expand our territory for our own protection. About invading any troublesome Middle East country and simply annexing it. And this is from people who _weren't_ looking for the 'glass parking lot' approach! Something was wrong inside their heads- they honestly felt, in defiance of all history, that the best chance for world peace was an American Empire, like Rome and Britain before it. Some of our leaders feel the same way.
Look- whatever you do, remember this one thing: we are not wise, and we are not always safe to be around. We need to be cajoled and cuddled and soothed into the modern world, and the terrorists are NOT HELPING. Neither are our captains of industry- empire by another name can be empire all the same, you Europeans know that, we _don't_.
Stop trusting us! Smile, soothe, and be freakin' smart, because it's going to take a while for us to be rational, or have any clue about being a world citizen.
-Chris Johnson