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OroborOSX: XDarwin Aqua-Like Window Manager
UnanimousCoward writes: "I've just downloaded OroborOSX, "A modified Oroborus-based X11 window manager for use with XFree86 and XDarwin on Mac OS X." It's truly a wm worthy of standing side-by-side with Aqua in rootless mode. Here are some screenshots from Jonathan Tyzack (I'm too lazy to create my own, but my experience is the same). Using MacGimp under OroborOSX is awesome ..." The original Oroborus looks interesting as well; the original author has discontinued work on Oroborus, but it looks like the code has found a nice new application.
Any bets on when Apple will discontinue this project? :-)
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
I am saying 2 weeks. Should be the next slashdot poll.
ostiguy
.sigh. yet another bloated and slow wm. stick to twm for all your needs ...
- Penguin kicker
Just try throwing that line into your next after-dinner party.
Extra points if you can keep a straight face , and saying it at LAN parties doesn't count
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
Does it work on an x86 processor as well with linux?
Note that you will need to be running OSX (or Darwin?) to build or run this; it is a Carbon app. This isn't immediately obvious from the web page... I just assumed they hadn't tried it on anything but OSX.
Ah, well, back to E...
Crash course in popup (images)
for ignorant web designers
<A> tags
<a href="#" onClick="return popup('document')">
WRONG!
<a href="javascript:void(0)" onClick="return popup('document')">
WRONG!
<a href="javascript:popup('document')" onClick="return popup('document')">
WRONG!
<a href="document" onClick="return popup('document')">
YES! YES!! You have just ensured that your popups will work on browsers with popups DISABLED !! AMAZING!!
Another working example:
<a href="images/whatever.jpg" onClick="return popup('view.php?pic=whatever.jpg')"><img src="images/whatever_thumb.jpg"></a>
Yeah, if all you want to do is to open a terminal window. Why do you bother with X at all, you luddite? Text screens not cool enough?
I love the Aqua interface and am running Xfree86 with Enlightment and different themes to produce the same interface. It's really nice, and looks like the original.
Check out this screenshot.
Remove the picture in the URL and you'll see how it's done.
Ciryon
It looks pretty much like any other GUI to me. But then, I never get all excited the look of a GUI anyway.
I know a lot of people think that anybody should have the right to make a window manager that looks like Aqua, since Apple doesn't own the idea of a "liquid-looking" interface. However, I think this attitude misses an important point.
Would any of the Aqua rip-offs have been created if Apple hadn't created Aqua? Would Microsoft's Luna look like it does without Apple's Aqua? Of course not, they would have continued with the chiselled grayness look that they did for years.
It's easy to take the excellent work someone else has done, tweak it, and then claim it's original work. It's a lot harder to start from scratch and build something truly original. Sure, everybody is influenced by something, but the important thing is to make sure that the influence isn't completely obvious. When it is obvious, that's the sign of simply derivative work. If the influence is not obvious, then you've got creative work. And Apple should have the right to sue the hell out of anyone who creates derivitive works that dilute their own stuff. That means, if it isn't running on Apple hardware running Mac OS X, it shouldn't look like Aqua.
The general consensus at Slashdot seems to be: (1) Aqua sucks, (2) but looky, I can recreate it as a Window manager for my putty colored, 15-mouse-button-equipped, hand-assembled computer, (3) and Apple doesn't have the right to protect their look/feel anyway.
Not intended to be a flame; it's just too early in the morning for me.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
maybe I'm just too dumb or no freesoftware-everywhere fanatic, but I don't see why you should'nt use the original MacOSX interface?
Boycot? Blackout? Subscriptions?
I don't care!
I think X11 window managers should provide smooth shadows, some transparency, and attached dialog boxes, because they can make UIs genuinely easier to use. But that isn't "ripping off Apple", it is using well-known UI techniques. The liberal use of gumdrops and color in Aqua, OTOH, are actually not such a good idea and it is best not to duplicate them.
Is that a... lawsuit I smell?
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
Come on - admit it. For a "newbie" aqua is a pretty cool look and feel. Try convincing the office secretaries that they should be using linux/FreeBSD by showing them gnome or kde and then try convincing them showing them Aqua (if it could be run on linux/bsd.
Even I'd rather run Aqua than gnome/kde. Why? Because it's more purdy and is probably better with regards to ease of use (and shove your "cli rules" where the sun don't shine, and learn to use the right tool for the right job; if this can't be achieved, try putting your computer together using only a sledgehammer next time around).
Hell - if it worked properly I'd probably even pay for it.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
I don't care for the Aqua style theme personally but the tranparency in those screen shots are very cool. The only transparency I've seen in Linux/XFree86 is transparency to the desktop... (Which is achieved by automatically copying a pixmap of the desktop into the window of your terminal program.)
People, people. It's a window manager that makes X programs fit in better with OS X programs visually. Sure, technically, it could be used on an x86 port of darwin but that really doesn't exist at least in any useable variety.
So why would apple give a flying fuck? It's making apps that run only on it's hardware platform a little prettier. Whoopie.
Ya know, sometimes I think the /. editors enjoy watching us fill in the blanks of their half-assed reporting. Then again I guess that's part of the charm of this site..
Trolls, it must be cool to be that bored.
I'm very lame and will be flamed for being such an uninformed person, but here is a chance for someone who is smarter than me to explain something.
:) But the second half of this e-mail might be irrelevant if someone tells me that this is just another dock-like window switcher that runs on a little bit of the true Aqua's screen real-estate.
Is this thing running *with* OS X on a Mac OS X machine... -or- is this thing running on a non-OS X box like a PC?
I've read that tools like Gimp and X-Windows can run side by side with OS X just about seemlessly. So is this just a window switching menu or something? Or is this like something that runs on Linux and is just somebody replacing their own interface widgets with Apple's widgets (i.e. window close buttons, scroll bars, etc.).
One other point - if this *is* someone just modifying some other window manager to use Apple's widgets, then I can assure you that the beauty is only skin deep. Can this thing run Mac software? Does it have a one-mouse-click install? Does it support FireWire? Does it run Adobe Photoslop and Microsloth Office? Is it easy enough for a grandmother but "deep" enough for an expert? Keep in mind, these questions are only for people who think that some other window manager that's just been prettied up with OS X graphics is on par with the true Aqua/OS X combo.
Don't want to sound hostile, just saying it like I see it.
Daenka.
Flippa Dippa
Finally a way to get rootless Xfree86 and Themes running in a carbon app with better interoperability with OS X apps.
Nowm I wonder how it handles with Fink (similiar to apt-get for OS X)..
Could someone tell me what this has to do with BSD?
Oroborus was actually started as a replacement for sawfish, with linux as the primary target. BSD, Darwin, etc, can all run Oroborus easily though.
The OroborOSX theme/style for Oroborus runs on Oroborus. It runs on BSD yes, but it also runs on everything oroborus runs on.
BSD isn't dead, but it sure as hell doesn't need our charity. It does what it does - well. And that's all anyone could hope to have said about himself.
I wonder if this is really a Carbon app under X. (Note the titlebar font differences -- why would they be present in an Aqua-enabled app??)
Having said that, I'm wondering: How difficult would it be to write a Carbon or Cocoa based X11 window manager -- even it means just hacking up twm? I'd personally be interested in something that really uses Aqua in rootless mode (like Tenon's competing X server). All the wm would really need to do is (I think) translate Aqua events to X events (e.g. window resize) wherever relevant (e.g. no need to minimize/iconify a window if it just shrinks into the Dock).
Reader beware: My knowledge of Cocoa and X window mgrs is pretty shallow to say the least, so there's a distinct chance that I'm talking out of my ass.
Thoughts?
. . . Mac user would ever allow that to be the background image of their box. The dust/crud and that white thingy on the front paw would have been Photoshopped out long ago.
Dirt doesn't need luck.
...it looks hideous matched with the unixy-flat grey and squared off buttons inside the pretty Aqua window borders. It's like if someone putting leather seats inside of a Yugo and thinking it stands side by side with his neighbor's Lexus. It comes off as a half-assed knockoff.
I hear people all the time saying that Linux (and it's most popular apps)are not at all original but merely doing its best to ape other OSes (Linux-Unix, KDE-Windows, GIMP-Photoshop, StarOffice-MS Office). Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Linux but things like this seem lame and add weight to thier perceptions.
I really don't think apple has what it takes to be a dwarfer... They care way to much about how things look, for one thing.
XDarwin is a very nice and very easy-to-install implementation of XFree86 which runs on top of OS X. You have now the choice of "rootless" operation where the various X windows lie around, mingling with the normal Aqua windows on your OS X desktop, or the "take-over-the-screen" mode, where it is just like running X with your favorite window manager (several available, as well as the usual X toys like xeyes, etc.) It is available for download at osxgnu.org which also has various window manager systems, including Enlightenment, AfterStep, and more. These are good, easy-to-use installers, and there is also the fink installer which works great.
It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
Just like they did the Aqua for Mozilla on OS X; their point being he'd be free to use the Aqua look and feel if he called the Carbon or Cocoa libraries to create the widgets, transparencies, and so on. I don't think he does (please correct me if I'm wrong!).
:)
If he isn't, than anyone can recompile it for a Linux box and then use the Aqua look and feel, which is gonna get Apple's panties in a twist.
Someone said two weeks; we'll see
It should be a Slashdot poll.
GPL Deconstructed
sorry, that looks nothing like my OSX desktop. it looks like a badly hacked together cut-and-paste frankenstein collage of the GUI being imitated. i'm also betting that the desktop doesn't *feel* anything like an OSX desktop.
:).
:)).
i have to use a linux desktop at work, but at least i don't try to fake better GUI's. mwm, several xterms, xemacs, ddd and netscape 4 gets the job done for me. it is ugly as all hell but at least its honest
there's still a lot of work to be done on UNIX's desktop UI's. while the functionality is there, there is a total lack of emphasis on look and feel. adding the ability to use shaped pixmaps instead of hardcoded widgets is not the answer. new button textures won't change the fact that things like konqueror's toolbar are brutally ugly. as a coding community, we tend to add bells and whistles before stopping, and just trying to concentrate on refining the user experience for a good while. i'm personally worried that the "UNIX philosophy" is incompatible for the increased refinement of the user experience (or some would argue that it is refined in other ways
bleh, i'm done rambling. opinions, anyone?
That's lovely, but how come he couldn't use simple HREF tags instead of javascript in order to show the full-size images? The whole page is user-hostile, or at least Mozilla-user-hostile; call me back when I can actually see the screenshots.
looks nice, i like the fact that you can roll up windows. but resizing x application windows with this window manager is painful. i've tweaked windowmaker to the point where i like it just fine on os x. also, windowmaker comes up a lot faster than this thing.
I have Gnome running on MacOS X, and I like having a foreign-looking window manager running. In comparison, I use the banned Aqua X Kaliedoscope theme for my Classic windows, it makes classic windows look just like standard Aqua MacOS X windows. They function so similar to the standard Aqua windows but sometimes it is confusing when you are fooled by the appearance and go for an Aqua feature that isn't available in Classic. But doing this with X Windows is another thing altogether. X Windows functions so radically different that it would be perilous to use an Aqua theme.
Apple knows the Aqua UI is very important to the sale of OS X, and hence they try to squash Aqua clones for competing platforms, as people would just say "Why buy OS X? I already have an Aqua-like UI". However, since this is meant mainly for people running X on their OS X box, it will not take away from Apple's sales, and thus Apple's not going to go after it.
Look, guys, stepping over the limits of trade dress and product configuration is a really bad idea. Little is gained by doing it, and ultimately much credibility of the virtues of what we do is lost thereby. Vested commercial interests, the real bad guys, like RIAA, MPAA and others have effectively and completely marginalized the technical community, making laws like DMCA and the SCCCA possible.
Formerly strong political lobbies in technical matters, like those of the ACM and IEEE are now losing credibility in key political circles, and for what? To cock a snoot or two at apple? Puh-leze.
The screenshot web page, in particular, is very dangerous for a prospective defendant. Particularly by the use of the apple logo at the very bottom, it invites summary responses. And nobody should be surprised or offended when they happen.
This is bad for Apple, but worse for open source. Apple has the law on its side for this one, and we gain little.
A recent trademark case in the 11th Circuit made clear that use of a trademark together with open source software (Coolmail) is use in commerce, and this is a GOOD THING. In that case, the basis for the holding resulted in sustaining a trademark owned by the open source coder, and holding that the GPL didn't abandon the mark.
To defend this use of trade dress/product configuration as non-commercial use basically seeks to gives away and undercut a very important ruling that benefits real developers of real open source product. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
I'm going to do the same in about 1 hour, with the slightly different approach of using some "professional services", and lots of belgium beer
Does this mean we'll now see the X-Windows version of StarOffice for OSX soon?
Don't see why Apple should mind.
These days you see as many apps that have Win32 and X-Windows versions as you used to see that had Win32 and Mac versions. If X-windows apps can (mostly) seemlessly integrate with native Mac apps, that can only be good, right?
Unless Apple wants to force developers to code to their API's only. But it's kind of too late in the game for that.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
Of course what everybody is ignoring is that X11 apps do not behave like mac apps.
It's just another facade
>80 column hard wrapped e-mail is not a sign of intelligent
>life
Such hair-splitting (though entirely true and accurate) doesn't make a slight bit of difference, because the overall effect is to create in a casual observer a likelihood of confusion. The issue isn't a question of what "is, is," as one might begin a defamation analysis, but rather one of the overall commercial impact of the page.
In short, given the broad-based customer base that Apple has, if more than 50% of surveyed non-geek customers would answer that the page suggests affiliation, connection, association, origin, sponsorship or approval, count yourself a loser in court. See 15 U.S.C. s. 1125(a).
The logo at the bottom doesn't make the case, it just makes proving the case trivial -- however helpful it might seem to point out that the use of the logotype there was an honest one. The overall impact to the marketplace representative (who is hardly as savvy as you), is going to be one leading not only likely to lead to a finding of infringement, but additionally one of willfulness.
I've been using this and its earlier versions for a while.
The latest version is a real mac OS X app, i.e. not something of interest to non-mac users (but of great great interest to mac users! Get it!). However, if you go back to a previous version (I can't say which since the site is slashdotted) it will be a normal Xwindow wm. On the other hand, it's really meant to be run in rootless mode on OSX and I don't think anyone would like it much as a wm on its own.
In response to another response to this post, he drew all the graphics himself; nothing is Apple's.
1) The website is currently down because the power to the building which contains the server has been switched off for building work to go ahead -it will be back at about 6-7pm (UK time);
;-)
2) The window frame (and widgets) are not 'true' Aqua -they are pixmaps. I want to use "the real thing", but there are issues at the moment (like OroborOSX does not actually 'own' the windows -XDarwin does, so XDarwin would have to be the one to use 'true' Aqua). Having said that, I'm hoping to hack my way round that at some point and actually use the real thing rather than this pixmap ripoff stuff...
3) The pixmaps were not originally done by me -they are taken from the 'agua' theme that comes with the 'standard' version of oroborus (v1.14.0). However, that only has two window widgets -red and yellow. I took the yellow one and 'flushed out' the blue part to make a green one. The widgets with the "x - +" symbols for mouseovers were based on these original agua ones, but I added the symbols over the top. The only widget I really did myself was the triangular one for resizing;
4) There is no way to use the 'real' versions of OroborOSX on anything other than Mac OS X. It is a Carbon-based life-form(!) and taps into the Mac OS X framework (the dock, the menu etc.) to acheive its primary goals (with many more to come!);
5) As mentioned here, the very first early pre-release was a 'standard' window manager -it could be compiled on just about anything (though why you would want to use it is beyond me -it does not really give anything but an attempt at the look of Aqua window widgets -a complete faade in comparison to true OS X behaviour!)
Finally, the point of OroborOSX is not to have 'pretty-looking' (well, getting there...) window frames that 'match' the look of Aqua. It is more than a window manager -it is an attempt to turn X11 apps into something that a 'normal' Mac OS X user would expect (at least, as far as possible). It's far from perfect, and there are glaring differences... but, it's early days and I have lots more ideas to come.
Step by step, I'm dragging my X11 desktop towards integration with the rest of the OS X experience. That's my goal... whatever I achieve of that I will make available for others to try -and if you don't like it, don't use it!!
Hope that helps!
Adrian Umpleby
(who can't be bothered to create an account, and is quite happy to be known as Anonymous Coward
I know this is probably highly unlikely, but if enough people start using XFree86 on their Macs, rootless or not, perhaps Apple, or a bright individual or two at Apple could see fit to make their own x-window manager, complete with a working aqua theme, for use in rootless mode. The sight of a truly seamless xfree86/Aqua experience would more than likely impress Apple techs enough to allow the project to carry on, and be officially supported. Of course, it goes without saying.... the windowmanager and theme would be proprietary, and not opensource, and would of course somehow require OSX to run. I know that will anger people, but I'm just being realistic here folks. Apple isn't going to give away their look and feel to anyone but people that buy Apple hardware, we all know this. Despite that, I think this would be a great idea, as well as one more way to market the OS, especially to scientific/academic types. Thoughts? Suggestions? Flames?
Time for some tasty Shiner Bock!
Has anyone had problems with backspace when using Mac Gimp or NEdit on OS X with OroborOSX? On my PBG4 it seems that the Delete key (where the backspace key is on PCs... to the right of the += key and above |\ key) acts as a delete key and not backspace... i.e. it deletes the character to the right of the cursor, not the left like it should... its pretty annoying... I would like to use NEdit for the color syntax highlighting but this problem is too annoying so I'm still using emacs (which is fine, I like emacs but it seems the terminal version that ships with OS X does not support color! and I REALLY like color syntax highlighting). Anyway, anyone noticed this? Is there a solution? Thanks
sudo eat my shorts
Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered *BSD community when last month IDC confirmed that *BSD accounts for less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as further exemplified by failing dead last in th recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. Arecent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyist dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.
*BSD is dying
It runs on GNU/Darwin, as well as Apple OS X. As is said in the above article. Scince there is no real demand for GNU/Darwin though (Linux is faster, better IMO), Apple might not go after it until someone uses it for something more main-stream.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
1. You don't like Command line utilities.
2. You don't mind paying for a GUI.
3. You don't mind this GUI being closed source.
The only reason I can see that you wouldn't just use OS X, is that you hate PPC hardware (which isn't really bad, it's pricey).
But we aren't talking about a desktop envirenment, we're talking about a window manager. If I thought your brain could handle it, I'd give some differences.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14