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Red Hat Proposes Alternative Settlement To MSFT
cwsulliv writes "Red Hat, Inc. has proposed an alternative settlement to the Microsoft class-action lawsuit in Maryland. Microsoft originally proposed supplying a limited number of poorer school districts in the US with PC hardware and limited-license Microsoft software.
The alternative proposal submitted by Red Hat would have Microsoft supply NO software but dramatically increase the number of school districts receiving hardware. Red Hat in turn would supply ALL the software (Open Source) and unlimited support via their Red hat Network.
"
And when Microsoft viciously declines, it will give more fuel to their anti-competetive practices.
Not that I don't think this is a generous offer on Red Hat's part, but it'll be interesting to see if all the posters who ranted at Microsoft's arrogance yesterday say the same thing today about Redhat.
At least Red Hat sees what's going on: Microsoft's "punishment" is hardly a punishment, instead it's just an expanded advertising campaign that can lay the groundwork for a MS-addiction of enormous proportions once this phase of the punishment runs out.
What's too bad, though, is that MS had the foresight to see what a golden opportunity this sort of punishment was, and Red Hat is only seeing it now that MS has suggested it (and frantically scrambling to make sure it doesn't go through). I was livid when I heard about what a cop-out this whole thing turned out to be, but I was also a little peeved that none of the Linux vendors realized what a potentially important market this could be to invest in.
Have to hand it to Microsoft. Satan himself runs the show, but Satan is no dummy.
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Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
I'm sure I'm not the only one who sniggered when I read this. I'm also probably not the only one who doubts it'll happen.
The question is: why? When Microsoft get their way, this move is merely an investment for a few years down the road, when every donated OS will need to be upgraded at great expense. So how is the Justice Department going to justify not accepting Red Hat's offer?
Introduce the kids at an early age to Linux so that they'll demand it on their parents' machines! What a diabolical scheme! *calls the tabloids*
I guess they learned from the best. (Microsoft)
:)
Do you like German cars?
Sorry Hemos, Michael beat you to it in the update to this story.
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What will the kids run? What educational software is there for Linux? I mean REALLY? Sure, there is some, but it's not even close to what is available for Windows.
Let's not forget, these are students and teachers. These aren't Unix geeks running this stuff. Do we really expect them to run and get around in Linux? Anyone else remember how well the computers were supported in school? Almost not at all. If it wasn't spelled out in a book word for word they couldn't do it.
Also, The Red Hat Network is nice..but it's not what I'd call full support. Microsoft's support would go further than Windows Update, which is the equivelant of RHN.
Nice marketing ploy though..doubt it'll see much press.
How is this going to help the kids? People don't want MS to give the software cause it is a tax write-off and will force kids to learn Windows based OSes. It seems that RedHat wants the same thing: a tax break and to force kids to learn RedHat based OSes (Linux). Why not let the schools decide what would be best for their kids to learn? I think it will look bad for the OSS community to force schools to use OSS. Maybe a 50/50 split? This way kids can learn Windows (which is a valuable skill, despite what some people think of MS) and will learn Linux (which is an equaly valuable skill, despite what some people think of Linux).
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Jesus, that is quite a few PCs.
I for one hope this happens. I find it kinda amusing that Microsoft's proposed settlement includes extending their monopoly into schools, tying a generation or two to Microsoft products.
Judge: For the unlawful shooting of a Police Officer, I sentance you to be thrown in jail for 3 years!
Microsoft: I've got a better idea, why don't I kill 3 more? Then you can let me off!!1
More at The Register
If Microsoft gave something tangible away such as hardware with no strings attached to what operating system must be installed on them, then I think the settlement would be more fair to competition such as RedHat. Microsoft needs to prove that competition can viably exist, not the other way around, in order to achieve a settlement.
Now, I'm not sure that RedHat should be the only company in on the agreement. This smells of opportunism. Like I said, whomever gets this deal is effectively advertising to the school children and teachers. What about making Microsoft pay for some iMacs too?
Does Red Hat think the schools just sit around and take whatever people give? In order for this Red Hat deal to mean anything, the schools have to WANT Linux. Why would they want it? What educational software that they use is going to be work on it?
Once again, it has to be pointed out: People use applications, not operating systems.
People can whine all they want about Microsoft, but it doesn't change the fact that Windows is the industry standard operating system. Schools are a lot better off having something useful, than some empty political gesture that will gather dust in the corner.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Happy holidays anyhow
o/~ Join us now and share the software
This is a styme on Microsoft as they are probably depending on accounting for the full cost of the licencing on the software that they will provide to come up with a huge number for the settlement.
Each machine is probably around $1000, but they will get them for significantly cheaper, but they can install $1000 worth of software on those systems for almost free.
I like RedHat's point. I'd really like to see the actual numbers on this, e.g. the percentage of the settlement that results from hardware versus software expenses. Also, the limited licences are a scam.
I didn't see anything in the proposal about Microsoft not being allowed to provide their software, only that they also allow a competitor to provide software.
It's not a proposal for *only* Red Hat to provide the software, but for Red Hat to *also* provide software.
If competitors are excluded from the action, then it can hardly be called restitution for anti-competitive behavior!
MSIE: The world's most standards-complaint web browser.
Well, if you're learning about computers, EVERY program on a Linux box is educational!
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
Explain how giving away a "limited" license for software that already monopolizes the desktop so that the schools can, presumably, buy a full featured license harms MS? Is giving Windows to schools really doing much of anything? It sounds like a pay off. I mean politicians can now say "we bullied MS into benefiting education." I must have missed this definition of justice.
$1 billion = 1 million PC's
Red Hat is going to support 1 million PC's for free. How much would that cost? How many do they currently support? Do they realize the beating these machines take? Do they think that school teachers and librarians (who usually do the first line support) have any computer knowledge?
Red hat is going to support 1 million installations of RED HAT LINUX for free.
This is insane. It's just a PR stunt.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
Why not make Microsoft purchase Apple hardware for schools? That way the 90% monopoly MS has outside of schools can start to get broken down starting inside the school system, by teaching kids Apple hardware and OS X is just as good as intel hardware and Unix.
And it's good PR for Red Hat. Nobody will take them up on the offer (though it would mean serious money for Red Hat in the long run if they did), and they get to look like they're even more strongly "for the children" than Microsoft. Nicely played!
``Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.'' -- Richard Dawkins
Fantastic Idea, but with the amount of Windows boxen out there... is it ok to be teaching kids to use Linux? I mean really... how many of them are going to run into that platform in the workplace...
I am sure to be modded down for trolling, but I think this is a valid point.
I am become Troll, destroyer of threads
Teach the kids on Linux rather than Windows. It's a better OS, though the real world generally uses a crappier one.
Teach the kids Esperanto rather than English. It's a better language, though the real world generally uses a crappier one.
You can run some Windows applications on Linux, using various methods. Chances are that at least some of the educational software will run.
Have you investigated what educational software does or does not run under the various solutions for running Windows apps on Linux?
Microsoft doesn't care about providing a platform for educational software; they want the kids to be hooked on their proprietary operating system and applications. Mass indoctrination of future Microserfs is the key to their survival. So this action can hardly be called an act of restitution for anti-competitive behavior.
RedHat is going to use that donation as a big tax write-off. A tax write-off of that size would be wonderful for a company in RedHat's position.
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I have no qualms with Microsoft or RedHat (or any Linux distributor for that matter), but putting Linux on 1 millions machines is not going to help the children. Windows-based products will still be on the majority of computers in businesses when these kids get out of school. Knowing Linux, but not knowing Microsoft products isn't going to help them one bit. Granted, I've never used Linux (Windows works just fine for my games, FTP server, etc. Don't screw with settings and you're fine. It is when you start tinkering with the settings and forget what originally was there is when you have problems. Why people can't understand this, I'll never know.). I doubt that any software suites for Linux are 100% like Microsoft's products. What we need for the schools is a universal system (and one where the kernel doesn't need recompiled daily.) that can be easily used.
Alive Contains A Lie
Niether settlement is good in my books.
First, Redhat is just piggybacking on it. I do not thinking giving redhat a big boost this way is 'fair' to others, OR to Microsoft.
Second, Microsoft getting off the hook at all by simply donating some stuff does not address the issue.
We simply need to ensure that microsoft can't stay on the top by bullying people with their size. If they want to stay on top with good software, let them.
one of the problems I have using Linux is that I grew up using Windowsy stuff. Linux is VERY different. You need to think about things differently because the OS operates in a very different way.
If kids start with Linux they will A) have no problem learning it and B) be more sophisticated about how computers work. And, most people would agree, they'll have no problem working in Windows. On top of this, Linux offers a sophisticated development environment where kids can learn about programming. Without paying $500 per seat for Visual C++
children learn new things very easily, regardless of how complex they are. Look at how quickly they pick up languages for an example.
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
This isn't about helping the kids. This is about punishing Microsoft for illegal acts of which they've been convicted. They're proposing their own slap-on-the-wrist punishment couched in "helping the kids" rhetoric, but really what they want to do is escape having to actually really pay for anything. Microsoft's allegedly 1.1 billion dollar plan actualy consists mostly of donated software, which in real terms costs them nothing. Red Hat is just calling them on this bluff -- if MS had to buy hardware, they'd actually have to spend real money. Of course, even then, 1.1 billion is nothing to a company with 36 billion in the bank.
Noble intentions? It's not like they woke up one morning, and offered what they did out of the goodness of their hearts. It's being proposed as a punishment, and everyone knows it.
..
MS and Bill Gates, despite their business practices, are still fairly active in the charity community, however, so I don't think you can paint this one black and white.
All I know, is that, if I were a teacher in a poor school, I'd be livid that it takes a mammoth corperation to engage in anti-competative business practices, in order to receive new equipment. I guess we really have forgotten what the government and taxes are for
I really don't think anyone needs to be sold a 'nice' image of Microsoft. Microsoft is successful because their software is the best at helping the computer illiterate at actually accomplishing some tasks (and/or making them think it is), in the same way that Titanic and Ammargeddon were successful because those movies are good at helping the culturally illiterate sit through a movie.
If you don't know what questions to ask, you'll probably be satisfied with whatever answer is thrown at you. Anything more, that might cause you to re-evaluate your own motives and tasks you wish to accomplish (or culture and values with respect to movies) will drive away people en masse.
"Old man yells at systemd"
This has nothing to do with the Government, this is a result of the Private Class Action Lawsuits brought against them, NOT The DoJ Anti-Trust Trial.
This proposal put forward by one of the Plaintiff 's Lawyers, NOT Microsoft as so many people here seem to think it was.
Here are relevant quotes from the Wired Article:
Michael Hausfeld, representing a group of private plaintiffs in Washington, D.C., said he thought of the unorthodox settlement idea about nine months ago after realizing that each of the 65 million computer buyers eligible to gain from a $1 billion settlement would receive little more than $10.
Hausfeld and other lawyers consulted with academics and other education experts, then worked with Microsoft to hammer out final terms of the deal, he said.
So again, this "deal" was proposed by the Plaintiff's Lawyers, not Microsoft, and it pertains to the Private Class Action Lawsuits, NOT The DoJ Anti-Trust Trial.
it's own software is so patently ridiculous... even more amazing is the limitless gall Microsoft has in presenting this "remedy".
I'd be walking around with a paper bag over my face even if I was only remotely affiliated the the legal team persuing the settlement in this deal.
I wonder if I could convince my bank to accept in-lieu of hard cash this handy little program:
void main()
{
while(1)
printf("Look mom! A program!\n");
}
Yes yes.. I know this doesn't do much, but you will concede the loop closely models the average behavior of some MS software that comes to mind... like MS Outlook; in particular: it doesn't do anything particularly useful and uses up insane processor resources... also, I will counter argue that since you have the source, you can take some time to make it useful.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
Okay, I like RedHat, but that is completely self-serving. RH isn't even involved in this...
I'm not saying that M$ came up with a good settlement offer - and we sure as hell know they aren't going to do more than laugh at the RH offer.
That being said - cool idea...
BlackNova Traders
Hrm, could this have a *little something* to do with the fact that Microsoft has had a monopoly in the schools. With 980,000 or so potential Linux computers in schools, software development companies might consider making their educational software cross-platform, or maybe even some Linux-specific offerings. Until now there was been no motivation for them to create education software for Linux, so a major ramification of going with RedHat's proposed settlement would be to get the ball rolling in this area. That is, of course, a very good effect of a punitive monopoly settlement, giving the competition a jump start.
Does this not equate to a RedHat mononopoly in much the same way as a microsoft monopoly? Surely schools should have a range of hetregenous systems - Max, Unix, Windows, etc
You can't sit kids down at a computer and yell at them that they better start learning to spell. As an educational tool, computers suck tremendously. Correctly used, ie for information retrieval and similar things, they are a great asset. Teaching is best to leave to the teachers.
War is one of the most horrible things a human can be exposed to. And one of the worlds largest industries.
The subject of my email is an African proverb that refers to the fact that when largeer than life entities do battle (e.g. kings at war), it's typically the little people in the middle who suffer the most. Having spent time as a mentor at a poor school in inner city Atlanta I think both proposals are self-serving, misguided and will provide less benefit than is being touted.
First of all about computers and software in schools. Studies have shown that the benefits of computers in school range from minor to non-existent especially when compared to tried and proven practices like increasing class sizes, upping teachers pay and engaging students in extracurricular activiteis like field trips. Secondly, in situations where computers proved to be beneficial it took an average of 3 years for the teacher to successfully integrate computers into the curricullum. Considering that the average lifespan of PC hardware is 3 - 5 years, this makes any push for computers in school a decision that should be weighed heavily before being taken.
As for having the students use Linux instead of Windows, I can't see how this is a good idea in either case. On the one hand, you have poor schools that are faced with having to find cash to pay for MSFT products after a certain time period expires and they have become used to using them and on the other you have places where middle school students struggle with concepts like "multiplication" (many teenage students I mentored did multiplications on their fingers) and "quadrilaterals" (and this was after repeated prepping by teachers in preparation for one of many standardized tests that students had to take) who are expected to learn how to use Linux. I hardly see that as Win-Win but instead Lose-Win where the winner is either Red Hat or Microsoft
Cmon little joey... surely you can optimize that algorithm better. What? GET YOUR VIRTUAL METHODS OUT OF SUZI'S HAIR!!
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So, RedHat's proposal is moot? Does RedHat's proposal have this in it?
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What evidence do you have that the software is going to run better on Windows? What does it mean to run better on Windows? Can you cite an example of an educational software package that does run on Windows and Linux, but runs ``better'' on Windows? What experience do you have with this? Or are you just guessing again?
Secondly, you are backpedalling now. First you said that it's about the applications, such as educational applications.
Now you are saying that ``schools WANT Windows and don't want Linux''.
So which is it, educational applications? Or the operating systems?
Regarding what people want: how *can* they want any alternatives, when those alternatives are shut out from the market by a monopoly? Of course Windows is what many people want. You can't want what you haven't seen. That's a consequence of the monopolistic practices which are supposed to be *punished* here, remember?
Is RedHat really a good idea? Sure, it's easy to install, but if history is any guide, it's pretty easy to own, too. Why not a more secure linux distribution, or even (ducking) FreeBSD?
Also, I don't think most parents would go for it, because their sprog won't be getting any computer (read: Microsoft) skills.
What will the kids run? What educational software is there for Linux? I mean REALLY? Sure, there is some, but it's not even close to what is available for Windows.
I've been hearing this argument since the 80s, except then the status quo was the Apple II and the scary technical alternative was the PC. Then, 'everything' schools ran worked on their 10-year-old Apple 2s, and there was nothing running on Windows 3.1 or DOS that they were interested in. In reality, 'everything' was "The Oregon Trail", "Print Shop", and some crappy home-made software written in Basic. Now, the same attitude exists about Windows. What is all this 'educational' software, anyways? The crap book publishers "give" away to entice administrators to buy their book? The question isn't "what will the kids run if they have to use Linux", but "What are they running now that they need windows for?"
No kidding. What more is really needed besides the web, usenet and email? Maybe IRC or an instant messaging program. Those are *the* killer apps for human interaction, and hence education.
As a technical employee of a school district, I can say this would be a good thing, especially with the Unlimited support available to them. We have quite a bit of linux expertise, but if we were to ever have a staff turnover, and the higher-ups didn't hire Linux people, they would be in a world of hurt. This would increase Linux penetration, as well as help out significantly more schools.
Trying is the First Step to Failing --Homer Simpson
If you don't activate it after 30 days, you can't login to the system. When logging in, it gives you the opportunity to activate, but if you don't it puts you right back at the login screen.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
Perhaps those children who grow up to be scientists or researchers will start submitting journal papers in Word format instead of TeX? For what it's worth, I wrote a book, and didn't touch Word once. (Admittedly disingenuous on my part, as most of the publishing industry *does* expect authors to use Word. vim + DocBook worked for me, though.)
how to invest, a novice's guide
...but it wouldn't really be unprecedented.
They might be planning to supply the schools with a free RedHat OS and free support. The RedHat package they get will include free, RedHat-made commercial software, too - stuff which you pay for on the open market. (Let us name one such example "RedHat Office Pro 20xx".) Kinda like a 100% discount version of the college student discounts you find on software in campus computer stores.
There would be a catch - again, not without precedent: said discounted commercial software cannot be purchased or used by non students, and the student agrees to pay for a license upgrade once they graduate - or if they don't, then return it and uninstall it off their system.
Since these kids were hooked on RedHat Office Pro 20xx since they were wee lil tots or whatever, and RedHat has usurped Microsoft as the sole maker of industry-used word processors, databases and spreadsheets, etc., there'll be MS Office and RedHat Office Pro standing as giants in the office world, just like Apple & the PC (before Microsoft killed Apple). He will gladly pay for a copy of RH-Office Pro so he can have this necessary tool for his adult, employed life. (Just as many people went and bought the next version of MS Office at full price after they had graduated.)
RedHat could make RedHat Office 20xx a GPL'd thing at first, and then pull a VA Software, and fork it. And worse, they could cease doing any further development on the GPL'd RedHat Office. Everyone else would be free to take the source code and TRY and keep up with RH Office Pro via reverse engineering and what not. But it would be a road fraught with incompatibilities and missing features, to say the least. (See: MS Office vs Word Perfect 8 vs Star Office vs KOffice vs Abiword...)
RedHat seems to be saying they would not do that to us now, but with all the kids hooked on their software at a young age, and with the chance that they could rip half the market out of MS' hands (by properly exploiting this Macintosh-esque opportunity), they would have you over a barrel.
And of course when you graduate from college RedHat will make you pay for support.
And being a company that is publicly traded and not privately owned, they creditors - aka share holders - to answer to. You cannot ultimately predict what your creditors/share holders will demand, and as different people come and go who own large slices of RedHat debt (er, um stock), who knows what their agendas will be? I am sure Bob Young does not own 51% of his own debt/stocks. If he doesn't, his stockholders could forcibly usurp him by calling in the debt (selling their shares). Even if he has 51%, jeez, if angry stockholders sold their, say, 30%, Bob would be screwed bad.
My point is, RedHat COULD pull an Apple computer here, and make money off getting people hooked on them as kids, and while they are being altruistic now, RedHat has shareholders - and eventually the shareholders will not be so altruistic.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
What will the kids run?
Wolfenstein! Thats what I was running during my computer classes 10 years ago, and now it runs under Linux as well...
Seriously.. any computer in schools will mostly (My guess is at least 95 percent) be used for simple word processing and surfing. That you can do perfectly well under Linux.
The trick with publicly accessible computers in schools (with no support personell), is to get them to work most of the time. The standard configuration you use on your personal computer isnt really such an good idea. Take a look at projects like Linux Terminal Server Project for Schools.Its not perfect yet, but it is a much better aproach to the problem than simply installing WindowsXP on all the computers.
If RedHat was allowed to put their software in such a number of computer (of course, nobody seriously believes they ever will), I think they could come up with something OK.
apple put itself in schools and captured a market that is still loyal to them. microsoft then came in and captured a bigger market. this won't go through the same way for Red Hat. reason being that the business world uses microsoft more than linux. and schools are these days more concerned with sedning out good workers that know how to use the software that the business world uses. the schools will refuse the linux software on the basis that is doesn't properly prepare the students. and the teachers don't know how to use linux or teach it.
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it's just a matter of being familiar with one system or the other. microsoft only wants to groom our children to be windows users, and this is the only reason they would come up with a deal like that.
I do tech support for an isp, I get windows calls all day, and in one 8 hour shift, I spend more time waiting for customers windows OS to reboot than I do in a whole year on my home system. Win2k/XP may be a bit better in this respect, but Linux is still far ahead of what windows offeres as a usable environment. Who's going to pay to update virus software on all these 200,000 windows boxes?
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
If Redhat wants to donate millions to charity, then will, they dont need a microsoft settlement to do it.
How we know is more important than what we know.
I've rarely seen so splendid *GOTCHA* as this one from Redhat. It will really show Microsoft's double-faced behaviour.
Sadly, of course Microsoft will not accept it, and the court will accept Microsoft's proposal. This kind of settlement would be just too adventurous for the justice system, I'm afraid.
And the public will not care a bit, but all children of America will praise Microsoft's generosity and kind-heartness. That's the saddest thing. TANJ.
I also don't quite believe Redhat's proposal. I doubt they would be delivering 1 million Redhat boxed packages with printed manuals and everything. Perhaps one for each school, or maybe just a CD set, or just "here's the URL."
This is one aspect which might make the proposal less appealing.
Great, then wine can faithfully reproduce all those windows inovations like the blue screen of death and the paperclip. Thanks.
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
...or just open up 2,000,000 insecure default Red Hat installs on the world. That would look just GREAT for everyone if they put 2 million Red Hat Linux boxes in schools and all of them were compromised within days. The pro-M$ crowd would stand up and say "See? This wouldn't have happened to a WINDOWS machine!"
Red Hat had better be prepared for a LOT of seemingly mundane support issues to come flooding through their doors. It would also behoove them to actually get in touch with LUGs in the area to see how they can assist with the training/support/etc of these 2 mil. RH boxes.
This is a very nice thing of them to offer, but it could also backfire in a huge way if not done correctly.
On the other hand, has it occurred to anyone that perhaps they have the same motives as Microsoft, when it comes to getting their software distributed to schools? It would give Red Hat a serious competitive advantage over other Linux distributions, just as it would give Microsoft an advantage over other software vendors in general.
Perhaps it is wise to rally around Red Hat at the moment, as maybe the most serious commercial contender "our camp" has to offer (though that's debatable, even, given their slim lead in actual market share)... or maybe it makes more sense to make deals with multiple software vendors (Apple, various Linux companies, and maybe even Microsoft), and force Microsoft to provide hardware from varying vendors (Apple again, Dell, Gateway, Sun, whoever). This may be difficult due to the price differences among these companies, but I'm sure they'd bend a little.
This way, you don't indoctrinate the children at a million schools in the use of a single vendor's products (diversity is good!), and you make Microsoft dish out some money to its various competitors (competition is good!)
Mix it up a little.
Go find out what the schools actually use. Then post links to the Linux version / equivalent of each.
I don't think you can do it, but I'm not just being negative. Even if you don't succeed, the results of any such attempt should be publicized, because they could eventually lead to success.
The two big problems schools face are funding and expertise. Schools don't have enough money to buy fancy commercial hardware and software and keep it up to date, and teachers are rarely above the level of the most naive consumer user, but they're on their own.
The Linux suggestion does a great job at dealing with the funding problem. That just leaves the problem of making these free systems do what schools need to do and completely admin'able by a very naive consumer-level user.
Making Linux systems easy enough for schoolteachers to use has never been any kind of priority for the Linux community.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
Under Red Hat's plan, all of these schools would get a massive amount of hardware. Some of these schools may not even have computers in the first place or have decrepit 486s. Who cares what OS they're running? It's all about the hardware.
- the schools might already have licenses to windows software, what's stopping them from installing windows on the newly donated hardware? Also, if they at some point in time scrounge up enough loot for the MS software, what's stopping them from installing it then? Hardware would just be one less thing to buy.
-the schools might not have hardware in the first place (we're talking poorer areas here) and maybe, just maybe a hard to use by the layperson (but ultimately rewarding) computer is better than no computer at all. Am I right or am I right?
There are a few things I can think of right off the bat that schools could use under linux.
Star Office/Open Office, GIMP, the INTERNET for crying out loud, various programming languages (high school mostly). Shit, they could even get MAYA if they had the cash. I'm sure there's plenty more. The only thing lacking would be the kiddie "educational" and "edutainment" software.
These would be very usable computers no matter what OS they end up running.
I don't think this is going to happen but it would be really, really nice.
I got a fever...and the only cure is more cowbell!
They should be teaching computer use and literacy- there's a big difference there. Windows isn't everywhere, like many would hope that it is. There's mainframes, unix servers and workstations, etc. They DON'T work like Windows- and they're not getting displaced anytime soon.
The argument of "teaching" Windows because that's what is out there is bogus because there's much, much more than Windows out there in the world. There's much more than MS Office out there.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
What educational software is there for Linux? I mean REALLY?
Creatures is pretty popular, so is Simcity 3000 and Civ:CTP / FreeCiv, and Tux Math, and Tux Type, etc.
No, kids need to learn how to use computers. The differences between Windows and Linux (at least as far as the apps that kids would use) are miniscule. Netscape vs. IE, StarOffice vs. MS-Office... any kid could switch from one to the other in about 30 minutes. The main difference schools would see (IMHO) with Linux would be a sharp decrease in downtime and administrative overhead, since the Linux machines could provide some semblance of stability and security (as opposed to the virus-ridden, self-destructing, endless reinstall hell that is Windows)
Jeremy
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
[dimator@chernobyl]$ fortune
Menu, n.:
A list of dishes which the restaurant has just run out of.
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
if the lab is well supported. big if. if the teachers have an understanding. another big if. i know not all teachers are morons but a great majority of them are. as for the interchangability of routine in a program. forget it. in browsers sure it might be doable but spreadsheet programs and word processors bewilder folks enough as it is. just changing the colors on a program is enough to make some folks lose their way. don't put so much faith in the ability of people to do what we can all do so easily. outside the sheltered world of /. most pc users are completely lost. i wish they weren't.
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What about a compromise where Microsoft would be required to set up dual boot Windows/Linux systems for the schools?
Personally, I think this would be of a lot more benefit to the schools, and students.
1. Kids should learn how to program. Nothing will help more to learn how to program and understand what an OS does than an Open Source OS like Linux, and yes, it should be Red Hat, because Red Hat is the only company, who might be able to handle the task at hand.
2. Teachers should learn to program and learn to teach how to program. Nothing will help more to understand how to program and how to teach it as having well developed tutorials on CD or online designed to help teachers and students to learn it. Red Hat has started their Training and E-Learning programs and seems to be very well equipped to produce such specific training services and software for schools.
3. Red Hat SHOULD IN NO WAY give up to make a profit on the long run in providing services and e-learning services to schools. Red Hat is a company and may be one of the few left who might make it, which has philosphically stood stead fast for opened source code software.
I consider anybody a hypocrite, who for whatever "uncool" reason thinks that Red Hat is not allowed to make money with what they do. The kids, which will be educated in programming in highschools, are the future programmers, who will go on and become the professionals of the future. They might want to write open source software again. I want them to find a successful company like Red Hat, which is capable of hiring them. So, please, your lovable slashdotting fathers out there, if you want your sons to find a job in programming in the future, don't be so darn stupid to deny Red Hat to make money.
It really doesn't hurt to have high school students knowing a bit of shell scripting and to have an understanding about a *nix based OS. Not only highschools should use Red Hat, but also colleges. It's ridiculous to deny ANY student to look at the source code of a program on their own computer and force them to use a proprietary OS.
4. The argument that there is not enough "educational" software running on Linux written for kids is a phony argument. Linux in itself IS educational. Because kids can discover by themselves how to program, they might develop themselves faster than you think their own "educational programs".
And what the heck are you waiting for ? Can't YOU write the educational software, which might still be missing ?
What more do you want ? Do you want them "TO SURF THE NET", "CUT AND PASTE", "COPY", "STEAL", "CHAT" at school ???? Heaven's sake I rather would teach my kids at home than to let them deteriorate into ADD kids flipping from website to website.
In short, why isn't there an open letter to sign for anybody who would like to give their support for Red Hat's proposal.
Smart Heads need Red Hats.
you're right, linux isn't (currently?) up to the task, primarialy because of software base (questions about Linux's suitability for non-geek desktops aside). but Red Hat's offer still has some good ideas in it. helping the schools is always nice, since no government in the US gives them the cash they should have, and the counter-offer does take M$'s obviously self-serving ploy and turn it into something really punative. targeting the poorest schools is also a nice move (on the part of M$ and Red Hat). and, most importantly, it's likely to have some lasting effect as it may (hopefully) encourage a viable long-term competitor to M$.
so, if it's a good idea, but RH and Linux can't pull it off, who can? simple: Apple. they've already got a good reputation in the education sector, they've got good app support, and it's their traditional strong suit anyway. it'd also avoid subsidizing one of M$'s biggest de facto partners (Intel), who've also benefited quite a bit from M$ abusing their monopoly.
so, how 'bout it, Apple? wanna step up to bat for the kids, put M$ in their place, and improve your long-term prospects for years to come, just for the cost of some support?
i speak for myself and those who like what i say.
I did clerical work in a completely MS-dependent company over the summer. The database front-end I spent 90% of my time in was written in-house anyway (probably attached to an Access DB, but I didn't need to know that), so no advantage in me knowing MS software there.
Interestingly, their multi-line phone system ran on a Unix box (I don't know which Unix, could be Linux, or not), which they could access from a couple of retired, too-slow-for-Office Win95 PCs running Exceed (an X implementation for Windows). The staff there seemed to cope fine with what looked (to me) suspiciously like twm and Tk...
IMO, in an ideal world schools would have at least Macs, some sort of Unix, and Windows (yes, I know this is unrealistic from an admin point of view, I'm talking hypothetically here). It's easy to fall into the trap of "because it's not the same as Windows, it's wrong" if Windows is too ubiqutous. As I remember, when I was at primary and secondary school, we didn't get too confused moving from BBC Micros to Acorn Archimedes to Windows PCs (and yes, my secondary school did just about have all those in active use by pupils, simultaneously!)
- M$'s monopoly has helped keep Linux out of schools
- Linux not being in schools discouraged edu. app writers from porting to or writing for Linux
- putting Linux into schools would encourage greater edu. app support for Linux
- this would increase Linux' momentum, impacting M$'s monopoly
- this would acomplish the real goal here, punishing M$ and preventing future offenses.
all this is true, entirely logical, and valid reasoning. the problem here is that it would, until the software companies catch up, very much degrade the usefulness of those computers to the schools that recieve them. while it's certainly a huge improvement over M$'s "offer", something that doesn't diminish the positive effects would be even better.to which i'd propose swapping Apple for Linux. administratively, it's much more familiar to the people who'll be running these boxes, Apple can absorb the support costs better than Red Hat, and Apple's already got both a very positive reputation and good app support in the education sector. and, of course, Apple's been hurt probably much worse than Linux (since they've been abused my M$'s monopoly before Linux was a concern), so it's a further improvement to the punative nature of the settlement.
i speak for myself and those who like what i say.
Why haven't we heard from Apple regarding this? One of the main reason that you can't use inmates as cheap labor is that it will unfairly distort the economy. Why does this not apply to this "Remedy" They are the dominant supplier of platforms incl. OS to the educational sector. This proposal will severely hurt Apples business forcing them to counter act with price reduction. How can this Remedy be acceptable to them?
Help fight continental drift.
redhat needs to do thins right now. Start shipping to the Schools NOW. send a nice letter stating they have free support forever and a nice infographic that shows how much microsoft is costing the school in fees and administration costs.
Bew sure to have big bold letters that state... REdhat is 100% free to your school and will be that way for the next 99 years. In fact we give you the right to give copies of the operating system to your students, faculity, parents, and stranges on the street for as long as you like. now sweeten the pot, offer to train and certify 1 person at each school district in redhat.
Microsoft wont know what hit them....
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
when I first read that Microsoft offered to put computers and their software in schools as their settlement, I thought that it was a really bastardly thing for them to suggest.
1) It makes them look like their looking out for the children and therefore makes them look like the good guys.
2) It would be almost no punishment at all! Especially when you consider that all the software would cost them nothing because they'd be supplying their own!
The Redhat idea for Microsoft to supply the hardware and Redhat supply the software is quite an interesting idea.
Upsides:
1) Microsoft gets a bigger punishment because they aren't just taking money from one of their pockets and putting it in the other.
2) More schools benefit because the money will be going into the hardware and not the software.
3) The schools would get "unlimited support" from Redhat.
4) A generation of people maybe would learn to not be quite as afraid/ignorant of the mysterious entity known as Linux.
Downsides:
1) As much as I'd hate to say it... let's me honest: A large percentage of those children are not going to ever use Linux (or any other Unix) other than in school. They're going to be using Windows, cause that's what they probably have at home, that's what they'll be using in their entry level jobs.
2) Not to take any credit away from the teachers but... most teachers (even computer teachers) would not have prior experience with Linux. This would mean that training would be required.
3) Let's face it: people are bitchy by nature. I could picture the uproar that the parents of these children would be in because their children are being taught how to use something other than Windows.
In the defense of Non-Windows software:
In theory it shouldn't matter what OS the students are using because
a) a GUI should be intuitive and
b) because most programs are layed out and function that exact same whether it's a program for windows or for something else.
EG: Basic Word Processor. If you know how to use one word processor then it's not going to be a stretch to use another word processor.
just my two cents (cdn)
A new feature is just a bug waiting to happen. And vice versa.
give them a mix of linux, windows and mac. Just like it is in the real world. Have a mix of applications on each. Have them learn the strenghts and weaknesses of each. This is what the real world is like.
Have a mix of them in the library for internet use and accessing the library catalog(often via web-interface these days). Show them that it doesn't really matter so long as standards are adhered to.
Seriously I doubt that any kid would have a problem sitting down at a KDE desktop for the first time. They'll just click on things till it breaks or works. And lets face it kids will often use the one which looks the coolest. Even a default KDE desktop looks pretty sweet (just change win-deco to laptop).
And after the license free period is over I imagine all the windows boxes will dissappear. Either that or MS will chase em down and eat them alive.
'Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson...'
If every school in the country started using it, the amount of educational software for Linux would suddenly grow substantially. Also, don't forget that one of the biggest pieces of educational software is already available for linux:
THE INTERNET
:)
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
They need to be used properly. And I don't mean administered or installed properly. If a student does not want to learn, you have bigger problems than simply increasing productivity. You need to actually get involved and motivate the people (AKA students, yes, they're people too). Of course, this leads to a lot more things that people don't want to hear about, like making schools useful for more than extended advertising campaigns, and paying teachers competetive salaries (and most likely STILL not compensating them properly for what they do).
These types of issues should be the a priority. Not that we shouldn't be working on making computers useful as learning tools, we (should) have enough resources that we can dedicate something to that too. But our priority should be the foundation.
funny munging
Why do we need Red Hat Network when we have all software we need thru Debian GNU CDs, mirrors network, dpkg package manager with full dependency management, apt to get all this software and install it, everything documented and supported?
What's more, Debian creates communities.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
Why should the court specify what the schools are going to get? If this is a penalty, it should be a blank check donation that schools can spend on anything they want, as long as it's non-Microsoft. It's not a penalty unless some of Microsoft's money and market share goes to their competitors. If a school already has a Linux setup, they'll want more stuff to go with that; if they already have Apple stuff with PowerSchool and carts of iBooks, then they will want more of that. If they have all Microsoft stuff, in part because of Microsoft's illegal actions, then they will have an opportunity to see what they've been missing with some other stuff.
Also, it would be a good penalty to have Microsoft pay for a UNIX/Mac training course that's offered free to MSCE's that want it. In other words, you paid to become an MSCE before Microsoft's actions were brought to light, and now you have a free way to upgrade your skills to other tech and round out your knowledge and maybe stop pushing MS kit because it's all you know.
Another penalty would be free Windows 3.11 for any machine that can run it. These machines are out there, and often they are junk only because of software licensing. They ALL had DOS because of Microsoft's illegal licensing (pay for DOS whether you want it or not), so it's not like Microsoft didn't already get a cut of the cost of these machines originally. Apple has offered System 7.5.5 for free for years, and that is much higher functionality than Windows 3.11. That's why there are so many old Macs still doing functional work, and even being sold around on eBay to do functional work. The equivalent PC's (late 486's and early Pentiums) are going to the dump, or sitting in the basements of office buildings. Microsoft recently hassled a charity for collecting these and putting Windows 3.11 on them for kids. That's not right. If their software weren't so much more fragile than the hardware, these machines would still be functional (in other words, you'd turn them on and they'd be as good as the day they first went into service).
First, if Red Hat's offer does nothing else, it points out the duplicitous nature of Microsoft's offer.
Second, if the point is to introduce the students to the principles of computer science, then Linux is perfectly adequate to the task. We aren't out to create a generation of Word-using stenographers, we are out to expand the minds of the students.
Third, there is no reason for any school to keep Linux on their machines if they choose not to. They can install any OS they like. True, they may have to pay for it. The cost-free option remains theirs, but they can go and install BeOS if they choose.
Fourth, the benefit of this proposal is not that Microsoft gets punnished for their evil deeds. It is not that they get their monopolistic plans thwarted. It is not that Red Hat gets to capture the hearts and minds of the students. The real benefit is that 800,000 more kids get to sit in front of 800,000 more monitors and tap away on 800,000 more keyboards than the original proposal. Five times as many kids get access to five times as many computers, running a capable, highly reliable, highly efficient operating system that can be utilized at no extra cost, or replaced with the OS of their choice (should they decide to do so) for far less than the cost of acquiring the equivilent systems themselves.
What a pity it won't happen!
That's great, but most kids don't use computers in school to learn about computers, nor should they be expected to. They use computers to run educational software to learn about other things -- mathematics, language arts, etc., and secondarily to familiarize themselves with the One True Office Suite that will be inflicted upon them in the workplace. Beyond a certain basic understanding (which I will be the first to say is sadly neglected), the average student, like the average user, doesn't need to understand computers. Most of them are, after all, going to grow up to be something other than software developers or electrical engineers.
And unfortunately, near as I can tell, there is still vastly more educational software available for the Apple II than there is for all flavors of Unix combined.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
> Back when I was in high school, all we had were Apple IIs. The software we didn't
> have, we made -- hand-coded with AppleSoft BASIC. That was quite a learning
> experience, though I doubt it rubbed off on that many potential programmers.
<yorkshireman>Luxury.
When I were a lad we had to bang two rocks together to get ones and zeros. And we were LUCKY!
</yorkshireman>
dave
Well..for those of us who can read. Redhat is offering to stick Linux on these systems and provide unlimited support for the hardware MS buys. KDE and GNOME look alot like Windows and in many cases act alot like it. As long as the installation is kept pretty compact it shouldn't confuse anybody. You click the button at the bottom to get to your applications. Nautilus is a pretty workable GUI file manager desktop icons pretty easily get people to the media devices they want to use. It isn't like the schools have to admin the boxes themselves anyways. They call up RH if there is ever a problem and if the boxes have even modest internet connectivity an RH trouble shooter can run stuff remotely to fix the system.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
I'll donate my dual sidewinder to anybody.
Please.
Someone take it away.
It's turtles all the way down.
A lot of folks here have been hammering on RHAT for proposing what they did. I'm frankly stunned. No school is forced to install Red Hat Linux, but if they're going to get a free copy of the software (saves them the download) and free RHN access (saves them the constant checking for downloads), this would be pretty sweet for the schools. They could certainly opt out, and buy a competing OS.
;-)
The key thing is that in most schools, no one would go out and install Red Hat on all of their systems for fear of the backlash from "concerned parents" who see this as teaching the students with second-best (e.g. cheaper) tools in order to save. No one is going to question the installation of Red Hat, if it's being provided to the schools as part of a major settlement. It would, after all, be a substantial waste of resources to turn it down
I really hope that something like this happens, but I don't know what, besides issuing a press release, RHAT is doing to move this idea forward.
Yes, AC, it was a dumb reply because it was meant in humour - a sense of which you clearly lack.
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
anyone. It's simple, plug everything together and plop a floppy in the drive.
turn it on and it works...
Just like a toaster.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I don't even think the schools really need to install RH on the systems because it can be done by whoever MS buys the boxes from (Dell or Compaq most likely) so it can be as easily done as writing an image onto the drive. That also works for maintaining the systems. The school's can be given disks with live images on them which are just dd'ed onto the hard drives. As long as there is a modicum of password security so people don't get to run around as root it'd be hard for anyone to really fuck up an installation anyways.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
It's worth mentioning that the famous Lego Mindstorms product is the result of a sort of intellectual collision between some media lab people and the Lego company. As with all Logo systems, there's an emphasis on creating visual results (though in this case the visual results have a rather high Cool Factor!). But what makes Mindstorms interesting (and also the Media Lab "programmable brick) is that the programming environment is itself visual. Probably has a lot to do with this being the most successful commercial robot "toy".