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XBox Netplay Already
ElectusUnum writes "Well, it's been a little while since the XBox was released and people are already playing online! The folks at xboxgw.com have written a program to create an ethernet bridge between xbox's over the net, fooling the xbox's into thinking they're on a LAN. 1v1 seems to create no major lag and reports have come in like this one that claim up to four xbox's work fine. It seems a DSL connection is preferred for hosting the server." I want an X-Box so bad, or as I would call it, a DOA3-Box.
There goes the revenue I'm sure they were hoping to get off online gamers. How much do you want to bet future games won't work like this? Or even have any LAN support at all.
While it's true that developers can do whatever they want, I doubt Microsoft would let them use the system however they want (after all, do you think Sony would be very happy if someone released a 'game' that let people pirate PS2 games easily?)
This hack is pretty sweet, though. It would be really cool to play online games with people across the country (or world) without going through some stupid intermediary.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I mean, this is cool and all if you want to play with someone you know across the country or something, but it's not really that useful until there are actual servers up with gamespy type software. I mean, you can only fight the same people so many times, you know?
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I'm getting more and more tempted into getting one of these things now. Anandtech reported the DVD playback was better than the PS2s which boosts its cred. All that is needed are some great games (i'd like to see midtown madness and maybe championship manager for it) and a crack to play multi-region DVDs, then I should be begging for one.
After this they just need to buy up bleem and release it so I can play my old PS games on the machine. If they can get EA, Namco and Capcom to support them they should make a killing.
The problem is that in America there is no price differential between the PS2 and XBox (both $299 me thinks). In the UK the Xbox should be coming out at £299, with the PS2 already at £199. There seems to be no incentive in the US for people to favour the PS2. But even over here I'm wanting a Xbox now. Oh well - only have to wait till next spring!
Free Mac Mini
I like how the download is an RPM. That'll make Bill G happy. Besides, without him we couldn't have things like RPMs anyway.
"If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
Halo is visually quite nice, and has a decent plot to it.
My main complaint is I finished it in two days, and I did *not* stay up all night to do it. I actually went outside, talked to people, and generally lived my life.
A little annoying, given the hype surrounding it.
if taco wants an xbox then wtf doesn't he buy one? It's not like he's poor.
:P
Have you seen VA's stock price lately?
Actualy, yeh that surprized me to. You can get them on ebay these days for like $350
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
It's nice to see so many people interested in this. I have been on the development team and would just like to let you all know where this project is headed. We are currently working on a matching server to hook people up to each other. The software is highly stable and fast. I just finished a 3xbox game less than a half hour ago. Pings were about 150ms, and there was NO lag. We are also working to implement chat. Expect another release in the next couple of days.
You don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer. - Winston Churchill
After beating halo on easy and a roommate beating the game on normal, I have to say In my opinion i'm pretty dissapointed with HALO. Yes it's very pretty and i like that there are checkpoints frequently, and it can be very difficult at times. It was missing gameplay though. I was dissapointed by the lack of weapons, mobs, unique level design and the ending was very lackluster.
SPOILER
No big final bosses, just a 4 minute crazy ride on the warthog through mobs of chittering Covenant and Flood. Surviving this gives you a short cinematic in which you fly off into the universe in search of a sequel.
so all in all, probably the smoothest and prettiest Console first person shooter i've played, but the hype and potential far succeded the end product.
Several days ago I posted a note about a friend of mine who got in trouble with Sony after posting home programming tools to the Internet. To revise my previous post, I believe it was a tool that allowed someone to write a PlayStation boot sector on a CD. My friend used it for writing his own programs to run on a PlayStation but perhaps Sony was understandably concerned it might lead to the copying of their games.
I just want to say how fascinating I find this culture of console hacking and programming. Here is Japan in the home of the console, I wish we had a more active community, but it does not seem to be so. I am not sure why not, especially since consoles are nearly uniform in popularity among all age groups and such.
My only fear is for these programmers. Microsoft is well know for its business practices, and I worry that they will disaprove of this Xbox net-play project. I do not see how this will hurt them but I still think they will not like it. Too bad since it will only make their console more popular.
R. Suzuka
Now the trick would be to get it so that when some of these games are ported to Windows, to have them able to play against eachother across the internet. That would be the real gem in the Xbox and online gaming. I wonder if this would be even possible due to the obviously differences in the controls and the games themselves, but it would still be worth a try to get it to work.
Gizmo
So if you can't wait or would rather tweak and hack (and we are /.'ers right?) then the Xbox Gateway project is utterly fantastic..
Remember, the Xbox was only released 9 days ago... just wait another month, there will be so many mods and services added (think Gamespy-like) that once again, M$ will be behind the 8-ball just like they were with that 'internet' thing.
using the standard TAP/TUN driver for linux, I was able to set up an ethernet TAP tunnel between my friends house and mine. (128K ISDN links).
Just pop the ethernet cards into promisc mode, set up a kernel IP filter to filter out any unnecessary traffic, and bridge the TAP to the ethernet card! works great! no noticible lag!
Time to set up?? It took me almost 5 (yes, FIVE) minutes to set up an xboxgw game for the first time. I just stuck the boot floppies from their web site into my spare PC, ran the appropriate ethernet cables between my router / hub / xbox / linuxbox, and it was done. My only problem with XBoxGW so far is the lag, as Halo has no anti-lag code for clientside movement so theres actually a delay between you pressing forward and your character actually moving.
How many game studios are being told that, if they want the SDK's early, or even at all, that they must sign exclusivity contracts with M$ ? My prediction for sure, is this. No game released for Xbox will ever be released for linux. My 80% sure prediction is this... no game released for Xbox will be released for ANYTHING else.
Sega is gone. It's possible Nintendo is hurting. How far can they be pushed, before they have to give up too? Even Sony might have to pull out, if M$ behaves as I've suggested. Bingo. Video Game Industry Monopoly.
But... it gets worse. The powers that be have always HATED people building their own computers, upgrading them. Here is a viable PC platform, that is almost completely sealed. Even a bigger hard drive might be impossible for a user to install, if M$ wants to really cheat. If they release this as a home pc, or even business... and Office XP2 is released for it, what then? "People buy the Xbox, it's the end to all those hardware conflicts, software too!". Compaq(HP?), Dell, Gateway... their days are numbered.
Bingo. PC Industry Monopoly.
Won't affect you, you say? "I'll always buy my own, and build as I chooose!". Noble thoughts. But the fact is, the prices you pay for hardware are in part subsidized by the fact that everyone else is doing the same. People like you and I might be left paying prices similar to those that corporate enterprise purchasers are paying, since they will be the only other market that won't be able to use a sealed system like Xbox. The future looks grim, my friend.
Yeah, lord knows, for example, that you can run out and buy an Athlon with a Unified Memory Architecture.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
And the GameCube has a PPC processor and an ATI video card. AFAIK, all modern consoles have parts not made by the company that sells them. The XBox is no different.
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
This can be taken two ways: 1) Linux screws over M$'s plans for the future, or 2) The Linux community is going to help capitalize on M$'s plans to move into the game community. This post may seem a little redundant, but I'll make some points here that I haven't seen scrolling through previous comments:
:-D
* The gateway may not be the best thing to see for those that would rather see the X-Box go away. This only strengthens its position for anyone with broadband; immediately jumping into the online world where Sega and possibly Sony have already entered, and Nintendo is lagging behind... I haven't heard about its broadband, but Nintendo best have something.
* This little Linux program should allow for more than JUST X-Box -- especially if other services out there can too be taken away and allow for more of a P2P gaming experience. No middle man for Phantasy Star Online, for example. I feel if it gets more fanfare it'll spark more projects to be done for other consoles, which is totally a Good Thing(TM).
* Misc. points: It would as been said before spark a Game Spy-ish service, but I would not be suprised of Game Spy themselves took intrest in tapping into this market for consoles if we got more of a P2P way of finding games. I know I would have some intrest along with my brother and our PS2's to be able to find opponents in say, Tekken Tag that we have sitting there collecting dust because we've beat all our friends in it.
Oh well, in the end Billy G. may get shafted out of another subcription service
Karma whorin' since 1999
It uses a stripped-down version of the Win2k kernel optimized for a console (i.e. everything runs in ring 0 at the kernel level, etc).
That was for piping IPX traffic over TCP/IP. This is for piping whatever comes out of an XBox (lan TCP/IP, I'd expect) over internet TCP/IP. Same idea, different protocol.
See, essentially you just wrap all the packets coming from the XBox in a TCP/IP packet, and throw 'em over the internet. On the other end, you unwrap 'em and send 'em on. Not too difficult. (in theory..)
Main problems are looking after people joining and quitting, and the problem of finding other people to play against. These are reasons why services like Battle.net and Kali took off; not so much because of the software, but because of the meet-others service that they provided.
First thing... the Xbox is not going to replace the pc market. It is going to play games... and there will always be a market for PCs. There are businesses out there that have to buy PCs. Programmers that have to bu PCs. Server people that have to buy servers.... hooked up to PCs.
If the computer revolution has taught us anything, it is that computers got more complex, interchangeable, and personlized. In the beginning you had Texas Instruments and Commodore. Now how many technology manufacturers are there? You theory is that the marketplace will become less diverse. People will all line up to get the same system... under someone else's idea of what services they want. That is insane. People have been bucking M$ for years. And their product does pracitcally anything the user friendlies want on their computer.
This topic alone is counter to your argument.
There you show your Xbox, the universal computer replacement, and IN DAYS people are already customizing it. Making it more diverse. Making it to their liking. Cracking it. They aren't lining up to do all the same things, they're breaking out.
So the ideas that everyone will be planting the Xbox4 in the bowels of their home next to the washing machine is preposterous. The world will never dance to the tune of one drummer forever.
There is always Planetside . It's going to be what HALO was supposed to, or at least that's what I keep telling myself.
Ah, but it's not a celeron. You'd know this, had you read Anandtech's article yesterday. And while it is an nVidia video card, it's not one you can go out and buy for your PC. Sure, it's somewhere between the GF3 and GF3ti500 in terms of clock and memory speed, but that's ignoring the extra shaders on the card. And it's also ignoring the fact that the XBox IS A CONSOLE. What that means is that it's hardware that won't change for 5+ years. Developers can write directly to that hardware, and do many other programming tricks that they can't do with a PC because they don't know what hardware their game will run on. Yes, it uses some PC hardware. That doesn't make it a PC (if that were the case, then the GameCube is a Macintosh).
And the XBox IS different than the PC, where the games are concerned. While you might find Halo on a PC, you're not going to find Munch's Oddysey, Amped, DOA3, Cel Damage, SSX Trickey, and more. And as far as Halo goes, the XBox isn't the only console to have FPS games on it (nor is it the first). Hell, the old Super Nintendo had a port of Wolf3D. The PS2 has ports of NOLF and Half-Life , among many others. So just because you think that the FPS is the realm of computers doesn't make it so. But rarely will you play a fighting game or party game, for instance, on a PC. Oh, and you might want to go re-price HDTV's. You can get good ones for $2000 or so these days.
And play Halo before you write off the XBox for good. Then again, there's nothing saying you can't have both an XBox and a PS2. or an XBox and a Gamecube, or PS2 and Gamecube, or even all three.
They are *all* going to be sold, one way or another, for the next year or more. If you don't believe that, you're deluding yourself. So the worst case for MS is if those boxes go to people who aren't going to subsequently buy games.
consoles were never meant for online gaming. It just doesn't make sense.
Well here's my 2 cents.
Consoles are far more convenient and more simple than a computer. How are they more convenient? They are small, light, and very portable. How are they more simple? Plug in a cartridge or put in your CD, press the power button and you're done. No installation required. I'm not suggesting that it's difficult to install a game, at least it isn't for most people, but not doing something is always easier than doing something.
Personally I think it would be great to have the simplicity of a console and the power, graphical quality, and networking capabilities of a PC all combined into one small, light weight, and portable machine.
I love getting together with friends for a weekend of LAN gaming at someones house, but I hate lugging my computer over there. On the other hand, if I had a console system like the GameCube (6x6x4.3 inches), it certainly would make LAN gaming a lot easier. A console and an LCD panel would be very portable.
Furthermore, if games were no longer any kind of a priority for my Desktop PC, I could save a fortune on PC parts. You wouldn't need to spend $350 for a ti500 GeForce3 video card. A $29 8MB AGP card would be fine for most people who just need to display 1280x1024 at 85Hz or less on a 19" monitor. Of course if you have other reasons for needing 3D power, like CAD, then this wouldn't be a factor for you. I also wouldn't be as quick about upgrading the rest of my PC parts if games weren't a factor. Games require more computing power than any other software for the most part.
Bottom line for me - I'm not willing to give up the awesome networking ability of PC gaming so until consoles can match the ability of PC's in that respect, I will continue to play games on the PC. But I would have no reservations at all about dropping PC gaming in favor of consoles when that day comes. So I think it's cool to see a project like this even if it is for the XBox.
I think you are right to say that "consoles were never meant for online gaming"... That's true in terms of all past consoles... But moving forward, I think consoles will be meant for online gaming and IMHO, it does make sense.
Let the flame begin.
This program is a godsend. I have a feeling MS wont have a netplay service set up for some time, and now i can play with my friends full screen w/o having to drag TVs and such over to one persons house. The XBOX may have 4 controller ports, but playing 4 to a screen really doesnt compare to haveing a screen to yourself. Console NET gaming will take off. SEGA made huge headway in to this arena, and it will only get more popular. XBox is going to be hacked left and right, and i cant wait =)
And to gaming bigots - I am an avid collector of consoles, and have a PC and MAC for gaming as well, and what ticks me off more then anything is people who have some blind attachment to one way of gaming, usually because its what they blew 300 bucks on. Heres the point, for all those who still dont get it:
ITS ABOUT THE GAMES STUPID
Finally, about seeing Xbox games directly playable on PC... its going to be a while if ever. Fist reason is MS wont want to cannibalize their own market(although a lot of games will be ports, the strength will be original titles, and XBox first titles, to drive sales). The second is a technical hurdle: XBox on the surface may look just like a PC with a gForce3, but, it has one very important advantage: the programmers have ONE target spec to reach the whole audiance. This has always been a console advantage from a game making standpoint. So while on paper its looks like less then a high end pc, in then end you have better looking games because programmers write games to take full advantage of what resources are available, the target output is a TV (relativly low resolution and a constant), and no huge OS overhead.
"Stuff... In my home!? NEVER!" - Zim on Invader Zim
"I want the toilet seat!" - Little Dog on Two Stupid Dogs
All software runs in kernel mode, unified memory means the CPU and GPU get equal access to textures & vertex data, a second vertex pipe & some other fancy texture stuff on the GPU, specialised controllers - none of that exists in the PC space, and would all have to be emulated.
Of course, it'll be much easier to port an Xbox game to Windows & vice versa, compared to a PS2, but it's still far too different to just run.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
how this is any different than, say, setting up an ethernet bridge?
How is this specific to the xbox?
...yet no one mentions Squaresoft. Why do I have a PS2? Squaresoft. They make some *real* kick-ass games, especially RPG. These guys always get the attention of the hard-core gamers because of how they use the platform they design for, their story plots, and how much fun their console RPGs really are! Seems to me the critical company is Squaresoft, and Sony's got them. Not M$, not Nintendo, and certainly not Sega. Nintendo had their chance to keep them for the N64, but since Nintendo wanted to dictate to them their releases, Squaresoft jumped ship and went to Sony's camp. Let that be a lesson to Sony so they don't lose out on a critial player in their age market, because M$ will be more than happy to take them in and take a seige at the market.
Personally, if M$ can't get Squaresoft, they can't dominate. This isn't the OS industry, M$ -- you can't do it all in-house; you need a huge backing.
Karma whorin' since 1999
PC = lets say 64 megs of RAM, 64 megs of Video RAM and an AGP bus that lets you copy between the two (think having two buckets and a hose) Unified Memory Arch = 64 megs of RAM which both your video chips and processor are plugged into. Note that originally AGP was designed to work as a poor man's UMA; the card would go directly to system RAM over the AGP bus, obviating the need for on-board RAM. Nobody actually does this. :-)
So lets say you want to create a texture on the fly. On the PC, your processor creates it, dumps it in RAM, and it's then copied (and this is the bit that takes time) over to the video card's RAM, where it's read and displayed.
On a UMA machine, the processor creates it, dumps it in RAM, and the video card reads it and displays it.
Now, IIRC, the PlayStation2 does this the exact opposite way; lots of little bitty cup sized RAM caches, and a firehose of a bus. The idea being grab some data, use it, get rid of it. You need it later? Just grab it again, you've got bandwidth to spare.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Tony Hawk 3 is compatible with a bunch of USB ethernet adapters (check out the review at ps2.ign.com ... I think they listed them there). I'm not sure whether this is a feature of the ps2 or if it's due to work by the team that created tony hawk 2 though. It seems sensical for sony to make a USB ethernet add on though... I can't see where else it'd plug in.
"...unified memory means the CPU and GPU get equal access to textures & vertex data..."
This is where AGP comes in it was originally designed so the GPU can access system RAM I don't know how hard it would be it implement due to no one using AGP this way and as for running in kernel mode I know enough to BS about how to get around that...
"specialised controllers"
They are USB but w/ a different connector and I'm sure someone could figure out how to use a CompUSA USB controller and remap the buttons or rewire the connector to a USB connector... I'm not saying I know how to do this but theirs a lot of people out their and I haven't seen anything talking about running xbox games on a regular win2k box or something similar
This must be Thursday, I never could get the hang of Thursdays.
I want an X-Box so bad, or as I would call it, a DOA3-Box.
who are you and what the hell have you done with rob malda?
"I hope I don't make a mistake and manage to remain a virgin." - Britney Spears
Are you sure you wouldn't rather have Mandrake Gaming edition
Somewhere in the heavens... they are waiting.
1. Bleem is dead - look at their web site.
2. Go ahead - try to make a bootable DVD - you'll need it to be bootable from the 2nd layer, not the first one..
Hetz (Heunique)
Wow, that was a quick turnaround. I've been arguing for the benefits of an XBox in the living room for awhile (one of my posts during the release day Slashdot article generated over 20 replies), but I never expected Taco to become a convert.
Makes you wonder, though, if he has some kind of syndrome? :) Swings from one technology canvas to another. There should be something in the DSVIV for CmdrTacoism.
How is building an ethernet bridge something new? I mean, great that they packaged it up like this...
but this is nothing new.
Some mention KALI.. kali was based on bridging IPX I believe....
Of course, MS could always just make the damn game support tcp/ip in the first place...
Perhaps this is more a reflection on you than the game.... our little Zorkon is growing up!
Read the review at IGN.com. While some of the features are better (zoom from 1x to 10x!), one thing it lacks is - DVD progressive scan output!! That's right, while the games will output in progressive scan movies will not.
Also, they do not seem to have more than 2x FF. When will these idiot console makers wake up and give me a 2x - 100x FF?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I can safely say that these launch titles were not supposed to be on the Internet in the first place. Now, I have a cable modem, which is second tier to the DSL's I was running agianst. I realize this. But, the game was created with LAN play in mind, with 1ms ping times. However, when I was getting a 350ms ping time (awful, I know), it wasn't compensating at all.
For instance, you can look around when you lag, but can't move or shoot in Halo. Since there's no error detection built into these games, you wind up in strange places when you resync with the server, and then get blown to bits. Many times.
The server doesn't lag, obviously. But the clients do.
Now, the game isn't bad multiplayer, but it was made with a LAN in mind. So, before everybody goes out and buys XBox's because of this, have that in mind. The programmers didn't think they would have to deal with Internet Latency in Halo, so there is nothing to help you if you have a high ping.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I like that there are no "bosses" in the game, having bosses seems so contrived adn very 8-bit Nintendo-ish.
Even if MS sold only 300K units, they will be selling an aweful lot next year. You know why? Because the average game targeted at the XBox is much greater than the average nintendo game. At least for people older than 12 years. (which is also the target audience for the PS2). Nintendo lives because of the pokemon hype. So buying a gamecube will limit your choice in games. I think a lot of people will understand that soon :)
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
So the 1996 implementation of tech A is beaten by the 2000 implementation of tech B. What about the 2001 implementation of tech A?
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
And yeah, I'm sure the controllers could be very easily adapted to fit a standard USB port. AFAIK it's only the physical connector that's different - all the interface chips are normal USB, to take advantage of economies of scale (like the rest of the hardware). Of course, that doesn't mean your target market will have one...
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?