SonicBlue Going w/ReplayTV 4000 Despite Lawsuit

Ughhgu writes "Looks like SonicBlue is going to go ahead and start shipping. The Cnet article even has a quote from SonicBlue. It seems they can't understand why the industry would sue them. Sign me up for one!" I'd dearly love to test one of these.

Comments

Play Ball!!

[Bonkers54]

Let the lawsuits begin!

It's the future man...

[Romeozulu]

ReplayTV changed my life. These PVR are here to stay and the TV networks need to learn how to use them to their advantage.

RZ

Excuse my ignorance...

[PoiBoy]

The only high tech thing I have with my TV is a remote control.

How is a SonicBlue any different from TiVo. Isn't Tivo just a digital video recorder?

Re:Excuse my ignorance...

[kochsr]

replay tv allows you to send the copy of the show that you recorded to someone else with a replay over a broadband internet connection... tivo just records... you can't get the digital file off the box.

Re:Excuse my ignorance...

[kingdon]

replay tv allows you to send the copy of the show that you recorded to someone else with a replay over a broadband internet connection

No wonder the TV industry doesn't like it. Another difference is that the Replay TV has a "skip forward 30 seconds" button, and the Tivo doesn't. Both of these are examples of how Replay TV is just trying to please the consumer and doesn't really care what the TV industry thinks of them (which I guess is how we got the VCR), whereas Tivo is trying to get the industry on board, chiefly by holding out the carrot of being able to get much more detailed information than Nielson provides about who is watching what (not on individuals, but in aggregates).

Re:Excuse my ignorance...

[maniac11]

Not entirely true. TiVos have been hacked to support ISA ethernet cards... making it possible to move, edit, burn, etc. your recorded TV.

Re:Excuse my ignorance...

[amuro98]

Both Tivo and ReplayTV are DVRs, but have slightly different feature sets.

Some prefer ReplayTV, others Tivo. Competition is a good thing...

(BTW, I prefer Tivo, mainly for its UI and ease of use.)

Re:Excuse my ignorance...

[Stormin]

The bottom line is, I think TiVo is doing a very good job of making both the viewer and the network happy. The sonicBlue box can share over the internet out of the box - on the TiVo, mods are necessary that put this out of the reach of Joe Blow on the street. And TiVo underground has "secret" remote sequences.. once of which gets you a 30 second skip button on your TiVo. I've actually gone back to using the Fast Forward button instead. The automatic backup when you exit makes it easier.

Re:Excuse my ignorance...

[amuro98]

If you're into hacking, you can add a 10mbps ethernet port to your Tivo, get bash running, and use ExactStream to pull programs off your Tivo, so you can burn them to a CDR.

I personally think this whole "Send your friends TV shows over broadband" feature of ReplayTV needs some serious rethinking. At its lowest quality setting, an hour of TV takes up around 1.2GB of disk space on your Tivo. At the best quality (called "Best" :), this same show takes up over 9GB of space. I can't imagine trying to send something this large over broadband.

More than likely, ReplayTV is hoping to use this connection so they can push commercials and other promotional video clips to your unit (if you check ReplayTV's website, they say you *must* have broadband and you *must* make your box accessible from the internet - meaning you can't put it behind your firewall or NAT box.)

Re:Excuse my ignorance...

[jrockway]

> you *must* have broadband and you *must* make your box accessible from the internet

Oops. I didn't. Damn. What the hell are they gonna do about it?

Re:Excuse my ignorance...

[Anonymous Coward]

pull programs off your Tivo, so you can burn them to a CDR. [snip] an hour of TV takes up around 1.2GB of disk space

that's too much to put on a CDR. Are you turning them into VCDs?

Re:Excuse my ignorance...

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't Tivo just a digital video recorder?

Isn't a car just a carriage with a missing horse?

Isn't PC just an electronic abacus?

Isn't your girlfriend just a heap of subatomic particles?

Isn't the WWW just another filesystem?

Isn't sex just masturbation with an extra person somehow involved in there somewhere?

Isn't a TV just a lightbulb?

ReplayTV 4000 official site

[Black Acid]

For more information on ReplayTV 4000, see the official site. Interestingly, it's the only networked digital video recorder with broadband connectivity.

Re:ReplayTV 4000 official site

[updatelee]

Accually the Tivo has a hack so you can add a ne2000 ethernet card to the tivo or directtv tvio.

http://www.9thtee.com/tivonet.htm

dont worry about version 2.5 rom, upload a hack 2.5 rom and your away.

not near as nice as replayTV's but it works, allowing you to download the recorded movies from the tvio to your computer.

Chris Lee
lee@mediawaveonline.com

Ever heard of "capitalism"?

[Logic Bomb]

Such devices, the suit contends, deprive the networks of revenue and reduce their incentive to produce new shows.

Translation: "Our business model is antiquated, and instead of trying to find a new way we're just going to sue anyone who takes advantage of it." Methinks the networks want immunity from the darwinian aspect of capitalism. As I'm sure has been said on /. before, perhaps it's just time to find a better way.

Re:Ever heard of "capitalism"?

[0WaitState]

Um, that *is* capitalism. Big winners in capitalism have always depended on external factors such as royal charters, exclusive government contracts, legal restrictions, monopolies (technology or geography-based), knee-breaking thugs, and so on.

I'm not sure there's every been an era of "pure" capitalism, which actually makes me hopeful that by historical standards, the current attempts to create competitive advantage by outlawing actions and ideas anathema to the established corps isn't so bad. Right.

Re:Ever heard of "capitalism"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny how it somehow harms broadcast networks to have their programs be seen. I'm still a bit confused on this issue if anyone would like to explain.

Re:Ever heard of "capitalism"?

[Nate B.]

Such devices, the suit contends, deprive the networks of revenue and reduce their incentive to produce new shows.

We could only hope! Network TV is a black hole of intelligence so the sooner these dinosaurs disappear from the landscape, the better. Of course the networks are only pleasing their viewers. All the smart viewers have gone elsewhere...

I'd rather see these major media companies bleed through their network outlets and not have the profits to pour into further eroding individual rights and freedom. Hopefully, devices like this can get a marketplace foothold such that a legal block is impossible.

But then, I dream a lot lately!

Re:Ever heard of "capitalism"?

[fscking_coward_2001]

Um ... asserting that "big winners in capitalism have always depended on external factors such as royal charters ..." is insightful ?

Re:Ever heard of "capitalism"?

[Moofie]

...and it hasn't occured to you that that is exactly what's wrong with capitalism as it's practiced today? Surely I'm misunderstanding your argument.

VCR

[talonyx]

I suppose VCR's are illegal too... oh wait, FAIR USE.

When is the industry going to realize that the only difference between digital and analog, in the eyes of the consumer, is ease of use?

I mean, given a VCR and some electronics skill, it would be a simple enough task to send video over a phone line, 100% analog, right?

This is the same idea.

And how do the networks lose money if people record their shows?

The only "bad" feature, as far as I can tell, is the commercial skipping option. If it were removed, I'm sure there would be nothing even remotely illegal in there. Of course, that won't stop a lawsuit :D

Re:VCR

[ruvreve]

The networks may consider commercial skipping a bad feature but how is that illegal? Oh wait its stealing money, ya thats it.

Re:VCR

[monkeyserver.com]

I don't know why the same argument that worked for BetaMax (Sony) back in '84 won't hold up here, it's just simple precidence (sp?):

...a 1984 Supreme Court case where the movie industry sued Sony, Inc., trying to stop the production of their BetaMax, which was an early version of the VCR.
In that case, the movie industry argued that VCRs would signal the end of the movie industry by allowing VCR owners to copy movies without paying royalties, in violation of copyright laws. The Court in that case ruled that the VCR had "substantial non-infringing uses," which made the new technology legal. What that means is that, while it is true that VCRs can be used to pirate copyrighted work, they also have substantial beneficial uses which have nothing to do with those illegal uses.
VCRs, as the Court pointed out, can be used to play legally purchased or rented movies. They can also be used to record non-copyrighted works including home movies made by the VCR owner. These "non-infringing uses" were substantial enough that the new technology should be released to the public, instead of held back for the protection of copyright owners.

taken from http://www.apca.com/112000.html (no permission :)

But we all know how big money..err..companies owns the legal system now <Insert MS jibe>

Re:VCR

[Computer suck!]

if it is illagel, am I commiting a crime when I hit the pause button on my VCR?
Also if it's illagel (alowing me to digital record and reporduce(sp?)) is my WinTV card?

CS, confused.

Re:VCR

[ralfp]

If you could send a VHS quality video signal over a phone line in real time, everyone would be doing it, and every electronics store would sell "video over phone" boxes.

The bandwidth of a POTS line is less than 4kHz (limited by ADCs and DACs in the central office, which sample 8bits at 8kHz; the effective bandwidth is about 3kHz), whereas an NTSC video signal (broadcast quality) is about 6MHz. You would need 2000 "100% analog" POTS lines to send a video signal. One POTS line would get a full-resolution frame in just over one minute (67 seconds per frame versus 30 frames per second). Remember home video phones and how successful they were?

Even the best compression algorithms and the fastest modems still produce really crappy video over phone lines. DSL gets higher speed by bypassing the ADCs/DACs. Even high speed DSL connections use an effective analog bandwidth of about 1MHz.

Re:VCR

[Rick the Red]

When is the industry going to realize that the only difference between digital and analog, in the eyes of the consumer, is ease of use?

Never, because that's not the only difference. If it was the only difference, I wouldn't have two copies of several movies, one on VHS and the other on DVD. Digital is better. It looks better and it sounds better. To Hell with the bonus material -- they could sell us most of it on a 2nd VHS tape if they really wanted -- I buy DVD for the digital sound and picture.

As for ease of use, VHS is better, because I fast-forward through the FBI warning and commercials, then note the time on the counter and write that on the label. From then on I just FF to 10:15 or whatever and press Play. So it's:

DVD: Insert disk, press Play, wait through the warnings and ads, watch video.

VHS: Insert tape, FF through the warnings and ads, press Play, watch video.

Same difference, really.

Re:VCR

[talonyx]

I'm not going to get into the whole vinyl vs cd arguement, but suffice it to say that digital is NOT higher quality by definition - it is in the case of VCR's of course, but I'm sure an analog video system could be made better than a DVD, and a digital system could be made better than that too. The two are on equal terms when ti comes to quality, save for the longevity of digital.

In fact, you'd think the industry would be happier with formats that only lasted a few years as opposed to DVDs which might last 20 years or more.

By ease of use I meant the easy ability to modify, copy, and otherwise deal with digital information as opposed to analog.

Re:VCR

[pa-guy]

Ham's use slow scan tv, which would not do the trick (5-15 seconds/frame), but given enough bandwidth I guess it could be done. It'd still be damn slow though.

Re:VCR

[Anonymous Coward]

Ease of use is about responsiveness and usability. Sending 3hours of uncompressed VHS quality analog video over a telephone line would take more than two weeks. Your analogy is flawed though let's pash anyway.

Re:VCR

[ralfp]

This has been repeated ad nauseam, but the media's (Disney, etc.) main concern, as talonyx stated, is the "easy ability to... copy".

Digital is not inherently better than analog, but digital copies are perfect copies. You can make a copy of a copy of a copy, etc. and the 1000th copy is exactly the same as the original. Try doing that with a VCR.

Of course, the TV stations are already broadcasting the original analog data over the air for everyone to see for free. They wouldn't be making much money if they weren't doing this.

Things would kinda suck if everyone had one of these SonicBlue PVRs, since there would be no advertising revenue, so TV would no longer be free.

Re:VCR

[Webmoth]

It seems to me that the media companies are not so much opposed to copying for personal use, perhaps not even copying to share with friends at no profit, but rather are opposed to high quality copies lacking the artifacts that analog devices inherently leave behind when making multi-generation copies.

VHS to VHS ulitimately makes a poorer-quality copy that few people are willing to pay money for (except before release on VHS format). Digital to digital (any form factor) results in perfect copies. People don't have to give up quality for a lower price like they do in analog.

The media companies fear, and I think it is a valid fear, that perfect copies will cut into their profits to a much greater degree than the analog formats of days past.

Where this fear loses its foundation is when you consider that most people who purchase pirated copies of media (digital, analog, software, videos, music, books, whatever) probably would not purchase the item if the (cheap or free) copy was not available.

Put another way, I will never buy a legal copy of Microsoft Office. In my opinion, the quality of the product is not commensurate with its price (I have a legally licensed copy of WordPerfect Office 2000 that I am very happy with). On the other hand, if a copy were made available to me at a low price (read: free), I may consider it. Profits be damned.

But then, it's none of your business how I spend my money, now is it?

Re:VCR

[ocie]

In fact, you'd think the industry would be happier with formats that only lasted a few years as opposed to DVDs which might last 20 years or more.

Even this industry has to be a little concerned about what the consumer wants. Remember the failure of DIVX and the self-mutilating DVDs. Once consumers have something (like long-lasting CDs) they don't want to go back to something inferior (VHS tapes that wear out), but they will go to something better. DVDs last a long time like CDs, but also have the capacity to store movies like VHS tapes. The industry can't turn back, it can only limit how slowly it moves forward.

Re:VCR

[dAzED1]

"I'm not going to get into the whole vinyl vs cd arguement, but suffice it to say that digital is NOT higher quality by definition "
If you're not goign to get into it, why did you bring it up? This isn't a vynil vrs cd convo, its a digital vrs analog. CD's sample rate is 44100. Records sample rate is 48000. Ok, so vynil will sound better the first few times...and?
Also, note that the whole "analog is better" arguement ends once a single conversion is made. If, at any point, its been converted to digital...then putting it back to analog is pointless. For "true" sound yes...analog is better. But its hard to find things that are analog and have never been digital.
And to make my point clear...how do you think most methods of saving video occur? Think its analog? Nope. Guess again. So your post is pointless. And...another clue for ya: digital can most certainly handle the quality of feed you get from your TV antenae

Re:VCR

[grammar fascist]

Never, because that's not the only difference.

Actually, the biggest difference, in the eyes of the huge media companies, is something that too many Slashdotters tend to dismiss as an invalid argument: you can make perfect copies of digital material, with no loss.

Before anybody dismisses it: try to think like a big media company for a minute. You have rights over works that you've bought or hired people to produce, called "copyrights." They're exclusive, with certain exceptions. (You'd like to forget the exceptions of course, but that's beside the point right now.) One nice thing about the current media formats (a few years ago) is that copies degrade, even without copy protection measures. Books are really hard to copy cheaply (so anyone who does it likely has deep pockets and is quite sueable), and audio and video tapes get noticeably worse with each generation.

If anyone was going to pay for the material in the first place, they'd want a good copy, so they'd get it from your publishers. You can almost forget about the pirates' fair use excuses - nearly no impact on you, right?

So along comes the digital media. It looks and sounds great forever! But...you can copy it! Perfectly! No degradation! All of the sudden, you have a new brand of pirates: the ones that don't have much money. And there are a lot of them, at least potentially, and they're really, really hard to track down.

Now, I'm not saying that all of their actions and arguments are excusable, justified, and sane. I am saying that, at least in this one thing - the difference between analog and digital - they have a good point. It's something more people in the tech crowd should at least acknowledge if they don't want to look like punk 13-year-olds when they argue copyright issues.

Re:VCR

[Alan Partridge]

"records sample rate is 48000" ??? - what on earth do you THINK you mean by this? Absolute nonsense! Vinyl records are absolutely riven with harmonic distortion and noise, from any remotely scientific perspective they provide an inferior copy of the master from which they were pressed than does a CD, particularly as that master is 99.9% certain to be digital itself. You clearly know fuck all.

Re:VCR

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a perfect copy...look at how crappy the picture for analog cable is. It's terrible!

It's amazing that the cable companies make money piping that Shiite into our houses to begin with.

Re:VCR

[Mr. Piccolo]

then how come vinyl sounds better? HUH? HUH?

Explain THAT, Mr. Meter Man!

Re:VCR

[Alan Partridge]

than what? A baby screaming at 3am or someone draggig their nails down a blackboard? How about a car alarm? You'll be telling me that Pepsi tastes better than Budvar next...

Re:VCR

[Invalidator]

Why does it have to be sent over a phone line? How is it any different (legally) if you just pack the tape in a box and mail it? Of even just go to your friend's house and drop it off?

Re:VCR

[dAzED1]

"records sample rate is 48000" ??? - what on earth do you THINK you mean by this? Absolute nonsense! Vinyl records are absolutely riven with harmonic distortion and noise, from any remotely scientific perspective they provide an inferior copy of the master from which they were pressed than does a CD, particularly as that master is 99.9% certain to be digital itself. You clearly know fuck all.

HEY..I got an idea...if you don't know what I'm talking about, then TRY DOING SOME RESEARCH

You see, vynil records used a sample rate of 48,000 (samples per second). CD's use 44,100. If you bothered to even glance through my post, I clearly said that a record's higher quality would only last the first few plays...after that, due to the whole physical contact thing (and being ground down by a diamond) a record loses its quality very quickly.
But yes...records have a higher sample rate. It matters not after playing it twice (then you just have lots of noise samples). If something was recorded at a sample rate of 44,100, trying to save it at a higher rate is pointless.

Here...since you obviously don't know how to look up "sample rate" in a search engine (do you know what a search engine is, little boy?) I've included a URL for you here. Think you can handle following a link?

Also, notethat in my first post I brought up on my own (thank you) that the media could never be better than the original...that was the very point of my post, idiot. If you're getting the signal from a TV station, there's no reason to squabble over quality...its already poor. But no, you obviously don't have the ability to comprehend anything that requires more than a knee-jerk reaction, do you...you'd miss points like that.

looks cool to me

[phreakinb]

i wonder if you have to sign up for a service?

Re:looks cool to me

[Black Acid]

Unfortunately, it appears you do have to sign up to use their server. According to the ReplayTV 4000 product page:

SONICblue reserves the right to automatically add, modify, or disable any features in the operating software when your ReplayTV 4000 connects to our server.

Fishy policy, I'd say...

Re:looks cool to me

[cnkeller]

Fishy policy, I'd say...

Actually, what caught my attention first was the previous line that you left out.

When in use, the Commercial Advance(TM) feature may not skip all commercials.

I wonder what that means...you just bought a $1700 appliance that selectively skips commercials? It doesn't skip the ones that are produced by companies affiliated with Sonic Blue I bet...

Re:looks cool to me

[Happy Monkey]

It probably means: "When the networks figure out how Commercial Advance(TM) works, and it gets popular, they'll figure out how to mess with it. Plus, the algorithm isn't exact, anyway."

Re:looks cool to me

[jbarr]

First, "our server" refers to the service that the ReplayTV boxes connect to to download both program information and software updates. This is an automated process and is no different from TiVo's process or their current dial-in process. The only difference is that it will be done over a broadband connection instead of dial-up.

Second, they are saying because you are purchasing a box that can be dynamically updated, they reserve the right to control what features your box will or will not have. While this may not set well with the /. community, you have to put some trust into the fact that Sonic|Blue will not do anything that would negativly impact their business. Yes, you will have complaints from some users if a feature disappears, but you will aslo get praises as new features are added.

Yeah baby!

[WD_40]

No more downloading crappy VHS rips of Simpsons and Seinfeld. Make some nice DivX AVI's out of 'em. Perfect digital quality baby!

*jizz*

Re:Yeah baby!

[Anonymous Coward]

you are obviously as dumb as a box of rocks.

Perfect digital quality? so you have 30Gigs to hold 1 simpsons episode do you? Oh wait you said divix.. something that is marginally better than VCD.... so how is over-pixelated video encoded from a off-the-air signal that is crappy to begin with perfect?

it's far from perfect and you cant capture off of cable or Disk better than good VHS quality.

Try getting a clue next time before you go spouting about things you havent a clue about or even the crainial capacity to understand.

Re:Yeah baby!

[psamuels]

Make some nice DivX AVI's out of 'em. Perfect digital quality baby!

Excuse me, I think my screen must have gone blurry or something. Did you just say "DivX AVI's" and "perfect digital quality" in the same context?

Look up the term "lossy compression" some time. (:

Where do I go to buy one?

[vrmlguy]

The article doesn't list any sellers, but I want to buy one quick, before Disney stormtroopers sweep down and confiscate them from the stores.

Re:Where do I go to buy one?

[Coward, Anonymous]

You can buy it directly from ReplayTV.

Re:Where do I go to buy one?

[Anonymous Coward]

you don't.
they are sold as mailorder only.
1-877-ReplayTV (1-877-737-5298)
call 'em. i could not believe it.
unless you know someone with one or live in Santa Clara, they expect you to buy on faith.

pardon the overused phrase,
What the hell is up with that!!

Get rid of your TV

[Anonymous Coward]

Read a book! Go hiking! Learn to cook! Become a viking!

Fix that squeaky door hinge. Eat a banana. Buy a Japanese orange. Lay into some sweet ill-nana.

Log onto the web. Shave your head. Watch the tides flow and ebb. Don't be caught dead

watching that damned tv.

Life is waiting.

Re:Get rid of your TV

[Anonymous Coward]

does anyone else remember "stop watching TV and do something more intersting instead" (I think that was its name...

Ahh TV from ones child hold...

Re:Get rid of your TV

[ndpatel]

'Fix that squeaky door hinge...Buy a Japanese orange."

i gotta say, that's the best rhyme i've ever seen for 'orange.'

and they told me in third grade it couldn't be done!

Re:Get rid of your TV

[GMac]

Yeah TV ain't what it used to be, there are occasionally some good programs on now adays! Man some of those educational courses are actual college courses!

I watch TV while browsing the web, listening to mp3's and doing development ->
1000x800 jpeg

Re:Get rid of your TV

[nosferatu1001]

Why don't You!!!!

*sigh* many years ago....

Re:Get rid of your TV

[damipoo]

Last week I red 4 books, spent 5 hours hiking, cooked 2 4-person meals and ate a few bananas.... ans still got enough free time to watch a couple of movies and the last simpsons show...

If you don't like TV don't watch it... let us be happy our way... not yours

"Pretend" ReplayTV

[irregular_hero]

Preface: The way things are posted here is really confusing to me, even though I've been a user for years. Seems to me like I submitted this one a long time ago. Anyway...

These units have the capability to send shows from one ReplayTV unit to another. There's not a whole lot of detail given about this functionality, but I wonder whether it can be fooled into thinking your PC is a ReplayTV unit. I slobber uncontrollably when I think about a DVR that would let me archive shows to my file server.

I've been a Tivo owner for almost a couple of years now, and in that time I've modified mine with extra disk space, a web interface, an ethernet port, and a shell prompt on a serial port. :> And there is some work going on right now to play raw video streams from the unit streamed over the network (Andrew Tridgell of Samba fame is the main culprit there), but something like this -- and the stand that SonicBlue is taking on this issue -- makes me sorta want a ReplayTV 4000.

For those interested, there's very little information on the "Send Show" functionality listed on the ReplayTV web site, but I am curious how a user with multiple ReplayTV units and a broadband hardware firewall would allow people to send video to them. I assume it's a TCP session and let-'er-rip, but the site is annoyingly lacking on details. I'd love to know.

Re:"Pretend" ReplayTV

[pjl5602]

I slobber uncontrollably when I think about a DVR that would let me archive shows to my file server.

You mean like a stand-alone Tivo with a network card added along with a web server running on it?&nbsp Then you can make an MPEG-2 file from the data stored on the Tivo.&nbsp The downside is that there currently isn't a way to get the data back to the Tivo for viewing.

Re:"Pretend" ReplayTV

[entrigant]

It's not as if we lack the hardware needed to convert a decent computer system into a similar unit. First off you have the hauppauge WinTV-PVR card, although I've heard it's mpeg2 compression quality leaves a bit to be desired. Apparantly the Kfir chip it uses is capable of much better, so it must just be the design of the card or the drivers. Linux drivers are not yet ready but are being developed at pvr.sourceforge.net.

Then there's the REALMagic DVR board which costs a pretty penny but I hear has incredible quality, though ultra sensitive macrovision detection. That is unfortunate however there are ways, albeit expensive ways to get around that. I also do not believe this card has much in the way of linux support, however I believe it uses the same decoding chip as the Hollywood+ board, so the linux drivers for that card may work with this one for mpeg2 decompression (including dvd support). The website mentions that this board also does the audio in hardware which the hollywood+ does not, however software audio is still of course possible. The mpeg encoder chip is the Kfir chip the wintv-pvr uses, and pvr.sourceforge.net looks to be coming along pretty well now. Figuring out the audio encoding hardware however is probably yet to be done. Full linux support looks quite possible, but it's a good ways away I'm willing to bet just by how few people I'm sure own this card.

Then there is a card being made per order by some german company I believe.. (I read this on an old article so I'm not sure of the current status). There was information on it on the video4linux website. This card was built especially for linux. It comes with nothing but the card in the package, and drivers may be downloaded from the video4linux website. Again I'm still not sure of the availability of this card and it may be rather expensive. I also believe that this card falls somewhere inbetween the wintv-pvr and the sigma designs DVR in quality. I'm not sure of this cards audio capabilities.

Put this hardware together with some good software (you will most likely need to write it yourself), and you've got a nice PVR system of your own to do with as you please.

I do however realize these set top units have their advantages, such as not having to be in the same room as the computer. I'm just making sure that people realize these other options do exist =).

Re:"Pretend" ReplayTV

[ReplayPatrick]

For those interested, there's very little information on the "Send Show" functionality listed on the ReplayTV [replaytv.com] web site, but I am curious how a user with multiple ReplayTV units and a broadband hardware firewall would allow people to send video to them. I assume it's a TCP session and let-'er-rip, but the site is annoyingly lacking on details. I'd love to know.

With a firewall you will have to forward a port to the RTV4000 in order to make use of the "Send Show" feature.

Controling trade...

[ackthpt]

Ironic that ABC/Disney has backed away from the internet (Go.com), MS-NBC is a weak presence, CBS/Viacom is almost nonexistent in influence and the only company capable of enforcing through medium (any metering or blocking of content exchange) is TW/AOL.

I find it interesting that many of these companies could be throttling this sort of device as an oligarchy, yet have little or no influence on the use of the technology. Actually that's a good thing, because of many concerns about there eventually being only a few companies, some years down the road, through which internet service will be provided and dictating what technology would be available and how it could be used by consumers.

I'll buy it when...

[hoggoth]

I'll buy it when I can use a SMB or NFS drive over my network to store an amount of video only limited by my hard drives, and I can access the files from my PC (to play on the PC, to extract clips, whatever I feel like doing).

Re:I'll buy it when...

[Chairboy]

No you won't. Like most people, you're trying to throw the virtual weight of your 'maybe dollars' around to influence people.

If you are REALLY interested in change, put your actual money where your mouth is. Identify a company that is going in a direction you like and purchase their products. The only person a company listens to is someone it has a financial relationship with, not just a 'potential'.

When the first thoughts of networking computers was realized, the US Government did not say 'well... I'll fund this only if it does super reallistic streaming video.' They decided that they liked the potential that a non-centralized communication system had, so they put their money into developing something that originally could barely send plain text.

Look where we are now? Bottom line, spend money, don't make vague demands.

Re:I'll buy it when...

[amuro98]

You can easily add space (up to 240GB) to your Tivo and ReplayTV has a 300+ hour model...just how many hours of TV do you need, anyways? With many shows coming out on DVD, there's not the need to archive TV shows yourself anymore.

Re:I'll buy it when...

[Happy Monkey]

just how many hours of TV do you need, anyways?

Well, Babylon 5 is 110 hours, the B5 movies add another 8, and Crusade is 13. Plus, there is a new B5 movie coming out. And then there's Buffy...

With many shows coming out on DVD, there's not the need to archive TV shows yourself anymore.

I'll believe it when I see it. (Yes, I've preordered the first B5 DVD.)

Re:I'll buy it when...

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah! You miss the big picture. You only record a small amount right now, because that's what you've been limited to. With this unit, you can program it to record entire seasons of shows. You can query based on an actors' name, and THEN select the movies you'd like to record.

After recording an entire season of Sopranos, you can then dump the entire thing down to your VCR. As for the DVD solution, I'm still waiting for the third season of Sopranos to come out. Wish I woulda had one of these units back then.

Re:I'll buy it when...

[Anonymous Coward]

"With this unit, you can program it to record entire seasons of shows."
with a Tivo, 344 hours of video.

http://pvrhack.sonnik.com/tivo/tivoking.asp

Re:I'll buy it when...

[Anonymous Coward]

"No you won't."

Oh really. I'd like one of those brain scanners you have please.

"Like most people, you're trying to throw the virtual weight of your 'maybe dollars' around to influence people."

If this weight is 'virtual' then it is not real and there is no need for comment on it is there?

"If you are REALLY interested in change, put your actual money where your mouth is. Identify a company that is going in a direction you like and purchase their products. The only person a company listens to is someone it has a financial relationship with, not just a 'potential'."

Bullshit. The only companies that don't care about potential customers are those that have monopolies or damn near such.

"When the first thoughts of networking computers was realized, the US Government did not say 'well... I'll fund this only if it does super reallistic streaming video.' They decided that they liked the potential that a non-centralized communication system had, so they put their money into developing something that originally could barely send plain text. Look where we are now? Bottom line, spend money, don't make vague demands."

And besides, it's your patriotic duty! Jesus wept. The gov got lottery-level lucky with the internet becoming what it did. Don't kid yourself. And his demands were pretty non-vague if you ask me.

Sue me, whip me, mod me down, whatever...but FUCK dude you're condescending. And mostly wrong.
LEXX

Re:I'll buy it when...

[hoggoth]

> No you won't.

Umm... Yes I will. I thought I was pretty clear.

> Like most people, you're trying to throw the virtual weight of your 'maybe dollars' around to influence people.

Umm... No I'm not. I'm not trying to influence anybody. I'm stating what product I will buy if it ever becomes available. Wow, you're really not good at this mind reading thing, are you?

> Identify a company that is going in a direction you like and purchase their products.

I think a personal-use orbital-capable vehicle would be really neat. Do I have to buy a Space Shuttle now? It's not what I want, but it's going in a direction I like.

> When the first thoughts of networking computers was realized, the US Government did not say 'well... I'll fund this only if it does super reallistic streaming video.' They decided that they liked the potential that a non-centralized communication system had, so they put their money into developing something that originally could barely send plain text. Look where we are now?

Yeah, they paid for and got exactly the product they wanted. A network that was non-centralized and could be routed around nuclear destruction. Many years later the new technology in it evolved into something even better than what they paid for. I'll buy a PVR that uses network drives and many years later maybe it's descendents will do holograms.

> Bottom line, spend money, don't make vague demands.

Vague? How much more specific can I be? Record and play video on an SMB or NFS mounted disk. Do you want specs for SMB and NFS?

Do you always tell people what to do?

Re:I'll buy it when...

[Anonymous Coward]

When the products you want don't exist, "maybe dollars" are the only dollars that can be spent. At present, nobody is asking for my real dollars.

Linux?

[nexex]

is ReplayTV based on linux as tivo is? (thereby making it easy to add space)

Re:Linux?

[Reikk]

ReplayTV is not based on Linux, I believe it is based on it's own proprietary operating system. However, additional drives can be added to the system. You can find information on how to do at http://rtvpatch.sourceforge.net/linux_single_drive _upgrade.html

Just another in a long chain...

[ajuda]

MP3 players were supposed to be the end of music companies, VCRs were supposed to be the end of movie theatres, Photocopy machines were supposed to be the end of books, Radio was supposed to be the end of newspapers. You know what? None of them created the destruction that people feared they would. This will all blow over like the fears surrounding the RIO.

Re:Just another in a long chain...

[hamjudo]

The managers at the big companies may be evil, but they aren't entirely stupid. As the new technologies come through, they reshape the business world. New technologies make some companies grow, and other companies fail. So, which movie companies shrank as a result of VCRs, and which ones prospered?

As we all know, VCRs helped most of the movie companies prosper. Now look at the executives. Video sales and rentals helped a bunch of executives climb the movie company corporate ladders. Which means turnover at the top.

The folks choosing to bring the lawsuits, might be afraid that their company will suffer, or more likely, they're afraid that they personally will suffer.

Re:Just another in a long chain...

[Anonymous Coward]

The car was supposed to be the downfall of the horse and cart/the railroad. Turned out to be true.

Past examples don't necessarily apply to all situations. Sooner or later, there will be a technology that brings about the end of a previously dominant one.

forgive my ignorance...

[GPB]

but shouldn't the networks be going after the individuals who utilize the features of replayTV to violate copyright and not replayTV itself? Just because replayTV has the capabilities to allow users to violate copyright, it doesn't mean that all users will or that relayTV is forcing them to. Sure, going after users is difficult and expensive, but they are the ones actually breaking the law.

I guess the same argument could be made for Napster, and look where that ended up.

-B

Re:forgive my ignorance...

[entrigant]

Two terms. Contributary and Vicarious Copyright Infringment. My Spelling my not be 100% accurate, but look them up. Napster was guilty as charged, and so will ReplayTV be.

Tv Commercials, namezero.com style

[Anonymous Coward]

what scares the hell out of me is the tought of tv ads geocities style, or even worse, namezero style.

TiVo on steroids

[TedCheshireAcad]

The coolest part about this thing is that it lets you skip commercials in replayed shows. I want one of these things, if anything, it will make my TV experience more enjoyable. Plus, how many of us are going to share 200MB+ TV show recordings over the internet? Can't we just set our SonicBlue to record the show instead of downloading it? Seems like over-paranioa by the industry.

Re:TiVo on steroids

[kvigor]

Five years ago, the idea of people downloading fifty whole meg of MP3s to listen an album probably seemed pretty damn funny too.

MEEPT!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to say:

(The following)

However, the following is but a summary.

This a a poem that I constructed, while dancing on a wall. The poeple passing by did not notice me.

The poem:

meepts old friends:

You are all right in your head.
However, you are all an exercise in
cognitive dissonance

the end.

This poem is in in tribute to to the glorious meept's contribution to slashdot in it's formative years.

Anybody who remembers meept can at least visit the website:

http://www.thegloriousmeept.com

Maybe someday, the meept shall have an audience.

Thank you, don't get up.

Hackability?

[RedX]

As a veteran TiVo user, I'm very intrigued by the ReplayTV4000 since it adds a few of the features out of the box that many TiVo users have been hoping for (yes, I'm completely aware of TivoNet). That said, unless there is a way to hack the software I won't be wasting my money on this product that very likely will be pulled from the market in its current form at some point thanks to the wonderful judicial system in the US.

What is needed is a way to have a fully functional system that doesn't take the software upgrades that will inevitably be coming to disable the sharing features and other features that the networks are complaining about. To compare it to TiVo, to use the full TiVo features you must leave a phoneline plugged in to "phone home" and take whatever software upgrades are forced on you. Pull the phone line for more than 30 days and you basically have yourself a glorified VCR. At some point in SonicBlue is going to be forced to send a software update to disable or alter some of the features of the 4000. Unless there is a way to hack the software to have a fully functional system without taking software updates, you're just wasting your money on this.

Re:Hackability?

[Suidae]

As much as people want to hack these sort of boxes, I wonder why more people don't put together their own.

On the windows side I've found ShowShifter, which does pretty much everything, provided you have a supported card (which is stupid, the whole point of having drivers is so you don't have to worry about what the specific hardware is). Even supports the use of an IR remote control.

I've tried ShowShifter and its pretty slick, although it has difficult with my Matrox G200TV, as the closest model it supports is the G400TV. Still, very nice to see a commercial product that runs on standard hardware and doesn't require a subscription.

The biggest complaints against using regular PCs for this that I've run across are the noise of the fan and the look of the case. Noise is easily addressed with high quality fans, insulation and placement. Look? Well, hide it, or customize it I guess.

The other drawback is lack of a directory service. I'd be suprised if some scripting work and an internet connection couldn't take care of that tho.

So, what are some more options for the DIYer? ShowShifter is pretty complete, but windows and propritary. Any GPL solutions that are reasonably complete and don't require excessive hacking to get a setup similar to the commercial products?

Re:Hackability?

[Vairon]

When I get one, which I will. Just before I replace the 40hr hard drive with a bigger one, I will be backing up the drive with "Partition Image" http://freshmeat.net/projects/partimage/ or Powerquest's "Drive Image" http://www.powerquest.com/driveimage/. That way I can migrate the OS to the new hard drive AND have a backup in case a "upgrade" comes down the line in the future, that removes a feature.

Re:Hackability?

[updatelee]

accually there are publicly avalible scripts that modify the system files to make them beleive they have allready dialed out, and there will be no need to dial out again, ever.

now this means that your not going to be getting your guide anymore, unless your using directtv tivo because the guide comes right in the data stream. directtv tivo only dials out to get system upgrades, not the guide. so disable dialing out.

http://www.dssforums.ca/vb/forumdisplay.php?s=95 1d ef91033c9f7c1cc0b83fe4f97319&forumid=67
http://www.9thtee.com/tivonet.htm
http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum

Chris Lee
lee@mediawaveonline.com

Re:Hackability?

[RedX]

accually there are publicly avalible scripts that modify the system files to make them beleive they have allready dialed out, and there will be no need to dial out again, ever.

These scripts that you speak of are only for TiVo boxes and DirecTV/TiVo combo boxes, although they do work wonderfully. The dealdatabase.com link you provided is a very good resource for anyone interested in doing some advanced hacking on their DirecTiVo box.

Inaccurate summary

[Compulawyer]

Hey Hemos -- the story does NOT state that Sonic Blue "can't understand why the industry would sue them. It DOES say that they don't think they should be viewed by the industry as an enemy but rather as a partner. Keep it objective.

Re:Inaccurate summary

[GregGardner]

The way things work here on Slashdot is that when you see an article and it starts out with:

So-and-so states: "I hate Microsoft". How about that.

That stuff in italics is actually what the submitter wrote. So Hemos himself isn't actually responsible for the statement "It seems they can't understand why the industry would sue them," the submitter of the article is. Now Hemos could have possibly corrected the submitter in the part after the italics, but he didn't. I don't know that I would say that he was being subjective by not taking the time to correct the subjective statement of the submitter...

Re:Inaccurate summary

[TDO]

Of course it was Ughhgu who said that, not Hemos. All Hemos said was "I'd dearly love to test one of these."

Re:Inaccurate summary

[Compulawyer]

I know the way things work here. If Hemos posts the article, it implies that he thinks that this particular article, selected from among the numerous submissions he gets, is somehting the /. community is interested in. As we know, not everyone reads every article and many more do not bother to read the source article.

IMHO, when /. staffers post articles, they have an obligation to do a little further digging to ensure that the summary they post (which is all many on /. see) is accurate. Conclusion: even though Hemos is not the drafter of that statement, he is responsible by posting it.

It is not a question of being subjective versus objective - those terms are properly applied only to opinions and analyses. It is merely a matter of being factually accurate.

Re:Inaccurate summary

[Compulawyer]

See my reply to the other comment similar to yours.

Umm...

[dimator]

Sonicblue's DVRs range from $700 to $2,000, depending on the size of the hard drive, which can hold 40 hours to 320 hours of programming.


Ya... exactly which hard drive costs over $1,000?

Re:Umm...

[amuro98]

I'm pretty sure the higher end models use two disks, not just one.

But yeah, the prices are still a bit high for essentially the same hardware as the low end model, with a larger HD.

Assuming you can modify ReplayTV as easily as you can Tivo, there would be nothing stopping you from buying the low end, then modifying it to your heart's desire.

Re:Umm...

[tunah]

This one.

Re:Umm...

[Monte]

Ya... exactly which hard drive costs over $1,000?

My guess would be one that's got enough speed to be able record, play, send and recieve video all at once, while keeping cool enough that you don't &lta&gt have to install a noisy annoying fan, or &ltb&gt melt the case.

Just my guess :-)

The why

[1155]

Not knowing what this was exactly, I went to the site linked in this article that slashdot had on it's site. I then went to the site that was linked on that article. These are two quotes that I guess would sum it all up for the companies suing.


" Unlike its competitors, Sonicblue will not charge a monthly service fee. "

"The boxes will display digital photos and skip commercials automatically, which differs from the ability in current ReplayTV boxes to fast-forward through commercials"


The first statement, that they would not charge, would knock tivo down. The second would literally destroy the way that television content is paid for and profitable. Nuts, but true. Just thought I would point out as to why the companies are suing, although I do love the idea and plan to get one as soon as it hits the market.

Re:The why

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really, you can buy a tivo (or at least we did) for much less than one of these replay tv things without any monthly fees, with the "Lifetime" subscription.

I dont hack my tivo either, I like having a warranty.

Re:The why

[jrockway]

Interestingly, I can get up and take a shit rather than watch comercials. Nobody's sued me yet :)

Re:The why

[JohnDonagher]

The original ReplayTV units from a few years back had no monthly fee either. They made it up in the cost of the unit, and it looks like they will continue that tradition. Their units were always a couple hundred dollars more than the comparable TiVo unit.

Re:The why

[base3]

Not really, you can buy a tivo (or at least we did) for much less than one of these replay tv things without any monthly fees, with the "Lifetime" subscription.

For the benefit of those not familiar with Tivo that might be reading this, that "lifetime" is the lifetime of the box, not the owner. IOW, if the box dies a day after the warranty is up, you're out the cost of the "lifetime" subscription. IMO, it's pretty damn deceptive to use the word "lifetime" in that way. IIRC, the subscription is also technically non-transferable, even if you sell the box.

Re:The why

[Anonymous Coward]

The press release from SONICblue regarding the law firm they retained states:

"The networks claim that the product's CommercialAdvance feature, which allows consumers to skip commercials automatically and SendShow feature, which allows them to send TV programs to friends who missed them, contribute to copyright infringement."

I'm a little confused because I own a JVC VCR (HR-S9500U) that among other features has CommercialAdvance and MovieAdvance. Since the CommercialAdvance has the same name and JVC has a patent on the technology, I assume that SONICblue licensed the technology. The way CommercialAdvance works on this VCR is that after a program is recorded, it will fairly quickly rewind and go back through the show and mark where it thinks the commercials are. Then when you finally play the program, it will quickly advance over the commercials. The MovieAdvance is a feature where it will skip over all the FBI notices and advertisement and such at the beginning of a movie tape automatically. Both these features work fairly well, but not perfectly.

I use the CommercialAdvance some of the time when I'm in a hurry. Sometimes I don't have time to watch commercials, but sometimes I do. I'm a little annoyed that I pay for my TV (cable) and still get commercials. It would seem logical that if I pay for TV, then I shouldn't be forced to get the commercials (which is how free TV pays for itself). But that's another issue.

What I want to know is if I'm going to have to give up my VCR if the TV people win this lawsuit? I've had this VCR for over 2 years. They sold these features on several models, but they seem to have stopped including them on their current models. Why? Maybe because it's only 96% effective?

I never saw anything about JVC being sued when its CommercialAdvance feature shipped.

As for the SendShow feature, while it's nice, I can live without it. But it might be cool so long as it doesn't take forever to send a show.

Re:The why

[Monte]

The first statement, that they would not charge, would knock tivo down.

It hasn't yet - Replay has never charged for their service: it comes out of the box with a lifetime (of the unit) subscription to the service. This is also why Replays cost more than Tivo out of the box. However, when you add the price of a lifetime subscription to the Tivo price, the Replay starts looking pretty good.

Re:The why

[Sax Maniac]

The second would literally destroy the way that television content is paid for and profitable. Nuts, but true.

That's pure bullshit. It might do this, not would, if almost everyone who watches TV bought that exact unit and time-shifted 100% of their TV viewing. That's a big honking, un-fscking-likely IF.

First, I doubt Sonic Blue has the capacity to provide a unit for all the TVs in the world. Second, not everyone wants to spend $600-$2000 per TV when you can get a VCR and TV for $100.

My wife and I are avid time-shifters, and even we only shift maybe 40% of the shows we watch. It goes like this- if we happen to be home when it's on, we usually watch it. But that doesn't always happen!

How about when you're over a friend's house, watching TV? We see the commercials.

How about when I'm watching TV in a public area, like sitting in the hospital waiting room? I see the commercials.

How about all the people who buy the unit who can't find the knob to turn off commericals, or simply don't care to turn it on? (Don't laugh, how many of you know people who can't set the VCR clock? It's a lot of people.)

How about when nothing compelling is on, and I'm channel surfing? I'm not watching anything in particular, it's unplanned viewing. I see the commercials.

Or when it's a premiere that you just can't want to wait to see, so you watch it live.

If you think about it, even if this unit is smashing success and "everybody" has it, there still will be PLENTY of ads seen by all. It wouldn't make a single stinking difference in the money the networks make.

Popularity

[ruvreve]

I just hope that this doesn't become popular. It seems things that become extremely popular get "attacked" and usually changed for the worse by the select few who don't like said product/service. Napster is of course the most recent example and don't forget about compact discs. CD's were not $19.95 a pop when I first started buying them. Its after they became popular that the price changed dramatically.

Re:Popularity

[Anonymous Coward]

Pricing on CD's has changed dramatically? Have you been in a music store lately? Goody still Got It for $19.95. The only difference is that the music companies pocket more cash now that media is so damn cheap to produce...

What we need is another mass Divx revolt to repel the bastards who are trying to own our tv viewing and music listening experiences.

And talking about harming the revenue stream??? Last time I checked, TV signals were broadcast free and clear (yah yah, except for cable). As long as Sonic Blue doesn't allow you to send your Pay-per-view movies to someone who didn't pay for it, then what's the problem?

I'll say it again...

[albeit unknown]

SonicBlue is made out of people!

Re:I'll say it again...

[sethdelackner]

Mad props. On topic: Why are slashdotters so into TV recording? What are you all watching that is worth the time? I watch the Simpsons on sunday. Half an hour, no Tivo or ReplayTV required!

Re:I'll say it again...

[aka-ed]

Card Captor Sakura. Kero is reallly cute!!!

Re:I'll say it again...

[Sentry21]

Here's what I watch, and why I want a DVR:

Monday: Stargate SG-1
Tuesday: 24
Wednesday: Enterprise, The Amazing Race
Thursday: Survivor
Friday: whatever
Saturday: whatever
Sunday: Stargate SG-1 repeats, Simpsons

Friday and Saturday, there's nothing on. Most other days, there's all of an hour of TV.

There are also TV shows I watch when I'm bored, or nothing else is on, or I'm paging through the channel list and see them, and nothing else is on, or are on every day.

Earth: Final Conflict, Andromeda, Relic Hunter, CounterSpin, the CBC National news.

The thing is, these are really good shows, but are not good enough to justify rearranging my schedule. Likewise with the X-Files, which I just stopped caring about.

If I had a DVR, I would record these TV shows when they were on (during the day, middle of the night, etc); as well I would record movies that were on Movie Central (there are quite a few good movies on this month, but never when I want to watch them, it seems).

After I had them recorded, I could then watch them whenever I wanted. Lazy days off, while working at home, when my favourite shows are pre-empted by hockey games, and so forth.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to convert some things to MPEG-2/DivX and store them long-term, but the vast majority of things I would do this for are CounterSpin (like CrossFire on CNN or HardTalk on BBC, only better), and the national news.

I honestly don't think the CBC, which is largely funded by my tax dollars anyway, would object to me storing news for the long-term. It's not exactly a hot trading item on IRC fservs, and it won't get me any accounts on hotline, to be sure.

Also, I would like to use such a feature to store television shows that I -cannot- buy seasons of on DVD. I'd rather buy a season on DVD than record, encode, and store (on hard drive or via iDVD), but if necessary, I would buy an 80 gig hard drive (or three, and RAID them) to store these episodes.

It would also be nice if they stopped charging so much for the damned DVDs. I mean, they cost me more than VHS tapes and they probably cost about $0.50 to press. Come on, cut me some slack here!

--Dan

Re:I'll say it again...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh. Recomending a fine program like Card Captor Sakura is 0:offtopic but crap like Stargate and Survivor (below) merits its 2 rating!!???!!??

j'accuse! Moderation abuse! Ow! Oww! Owwww!

Re:I'll say it again...

[Anonymous Coward]

The whole point of the box is that you can watch the Simpsons at 4am on Tuesday, and in 22 minutes!
The cool part is that you told the box three months ago to record the Simpsons when available and keep four episodes in storage at all times.

Re:I'll say it again...

[Anonymous Coward]

One problem is that digital cable boxes and PVRs don't play nice together. Both of them want to be the tuner.

The PVRs have their own channel guide (through a subscription service), and tune to the required channel to record the selected show when it comes on. This doesn't work so well when the show you want to watch is coming from a digital box that only outputs on channel 3.

The PVR would need to tell the digital box to tune to a particular channel, and this isn't possible right now.

I understand that their are industry initiatives to allow these types of devices to communicate in this manner, but I suspect that it is some ways off. Also, the "s" on the word "initiatives" is disconcerting. It means that one brand might not work with another because they use different protocols.

Re:I'll say it again...

[drsquare]

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's nothing that can't be done with any decent video recorder, or computer with a TV card.

Adn what's all this about it taking 22 minutes? Since when has the Simpsons taken any other length of time? Do you live in some strange universe where it takes 3 hours to view?

Re:I'll say it again...

[drsquare]

Monday: Stargate SG-1
Tuesday: 24
Wednesday: Enterprise, The Amazing Race
Thursday: Survivor
Friday: whatever
Saturday: whatever
Sunday: Stargate SG-1 repeats, Simpsons

See: just crap programs, or repeats. Hardly anything worth investing thousands of pounds into.

There are also TV shows I watch when I'm bored, or nothing else is on, or I'm paging through the channel list and see them, and nothing else is on, or are on every day.

Exactly. Is it worth spending all that time and money just to watch a couple of programs when you're bored? Haven't you heard of things such as hobbies?

It sometimes seems like people here's lives revolve around the telly. The only thing that's worth watching nowadays is the Simpsons and the football.

Re:I'll say it again...

[Sentry21]

I don't usually reply to Anonymous Coward posts, but I will in this case because the poster is incorrect.

The PVR would need to tell the digital box to tune to a particular
channel, and this isn't possible right now.

This is not true, in fact. My digital cable box has a serial port that the TiVo can connect to and change the channel via. Interesting technology. Now, if only the TiVo could get the channel lists via this port (but that would lose them subscription dollahs, wouldn't it?)

--Dan

Re:I'll say it again...

[Sentry21]

See: just crap programs, or repeats. Hardly anything worth investing
thousands of pounds into.

Well excuse me, but I happen to like my crap programs and repeats.

Haven't you heard of things such as hobbies?

I have several hobbies, but when one comes home from work (or in my case, is working at home), one does not necessarily feel like going kickboxing or learning a new language. Television, music, and books are the three easiest, lowest-energy ways to relax, and I can listen to music and read books whenever I want. WHy can't I watch TV whenever I want?

Yeha, it's a luxury that I don't need, but so's my computer, so's my stereo, so are my books. Doesn't mean I'm not going to give up on literature.

--Dan

Dork!

[jabber]

Click on the link.. Then type "www.replaytv.com or "www.sonicblue.com" into your browser, and find out.

Moderators, this is not Flamebait, it's common (freaking) sense.

Sonic sent emails Tuesday...

[Tide]

From the email they sent me:

Dear SONICblue customer,

Thank you for pre-ordering the ReplayTV 4000. A customer service representative will be contacting you shortly to confirm the specific details of your pre-order. In order to expedite the shipment of your ReplayTV 4000 model DVR, you are encouraged to call us toll-free at 1-877-ReplayTV (1-877-737-5298) to verify your desired shipping method and other details.

Our Sales department can be reached Monday through Friday, 5:00AM to 5:30PM (PST).

Thank you and Happy Holidays!
SONICblue Customer Care

I immediately called and waited about 20 minutes on hold. The main options for shipping ran $22 (ground) $55 (2nd day) and$80 for Next day, though he mentioned that they ship friday so next day would be Mon at the earliest. CA residents need to pay taxes.

is it censorship?

[Anonymous Coward]

Double woa!

MEEPT!!

Also,

The truth!!

work-arounds for ad-skipping

[jamienk]

* Ban the programatic detection and elimination of ads. Do this either with laws, or de-facto, by owning media "browsers"

* Make ads use non-standard and random time lengths, sizes, volumes, ect., so that ads cannot be programatically detected

* Interrupt TV, web pages, and even music CDs and movies with ads at irregular intervals so that ads cannot be even generally anticipated

* Supperimpose ads on the sidelines of shows, web pages, CD covers etc. with a constant, nagging presence so that it is difficult to escape from ads even after they have been identified

* Work ads into the background of the action of shows, web pages, etc. to make it more difficult to mentally "tune out" the ads' presenece

* Work ads into the hearts of the plots of fictions, the comments of characters, and the opinions of pundits so that it becomes difficult to even distinguish ads from non-ads

* Replace entertainment, information, opinion, and art with ads wholesale; completely removes the troubling burden of somehow "integrating" ads with non-ads

* Attempt to ban the use of all mass media except for ads; eliminates non-ad competition

What will they think of next?

Re:work-arounds for ad-skipping

[haruharaharu]

And of course, most of that stuff will just drive me away from mass media entirely.

Re:work-arounds for ad-skipping

[Anonymous Coward]

* Replace entertainment, information, opinion, and art with ads wholesale; completely removes the troubling burden of somehow "integrating" ads with non-ads
Don't all the home shopping channels do this already?

What they're really scared of...

[Cresferthip]

What they're really scared of is that with devices like this in the hands of the consumer, the networks' plans for pay-per-view replays go out the window.

What the networks want is to get more money from the consumer by charging for video on demand replays of TV shows. Keep in mind that they're pushing for "locks" on digitally delivered programs so they can mark programs as "unrecordable" and "protected" at which point your VCR/whatever will refuse to record/show the time-shifted broadcast.

The only reason they could want something like this is to be able to charge you for a time-shifted showing.

"Not home for the big game? Well, you can't record it, but we'll let you watch it as video on demand for a small fee! Suck it down!"

With a network of digital recorders that can share programs you no longer have to ask of family and friends, "hey, did you tape ER on thurs.? I missed it and forgot to tape it." Instead you search and download...and if people can do that, why would they buy a rebroadcast from the network?

This isn't about protecting an old and out of date business model, this is about changing current laws and controlling the technology so that a new business model can take off.

Re:What they're really scared of...

[Wesley Felter]

What they're really scared of is that with devices like this in the hands of the consumer, the networks' plans for pay-per-view replays go out the window.

I don't agree. As I've said before, I think 99% of people would prefer pay-per-view video-on-demand over a PVR, because there's no several-hundred-dollar upfront hardware cost.

Re:What they're really scared of...

[Cresferthip]

Very true. But keep in mind the mentality of a lot of these corporations...

If they don't control the whole thing and have an absolute "monopoly" on it they feel very insecure about the whole thing.

Napster could have been easily defeated by offering cheap, fast, high-quality, flexible (as in one song, not the whole album), reliable downloads from sites...but instead they sued Napster out of existance and launched their own music distribution services that weren't cheap, flexible, or easy to use.

Re:What they're really scared of...

[jacoplane]

I think what most people would prefer is a video-on-demand system which would still let them store the video for later viewing. Wait a minute, that's my PC connected to the internet with TV-out. Now if only there was a legal way of obtaining content.

Re:What they're really scared of...

[The_Rook]

actually, judging from the replay 4000's capabilities, i'd say that pay per view video on demand is going to be one of the replay's business models. if the thing can transfer video over the internet, it won't be too difficult for sonic blue to develop a service where customers could order a video to be delivered over the internet for a fee. and it's a sure bet that these videos on demand won't be copyable.

Re:What they're really scared of...

[flollywebfrog]

This isn't about protecting an old and out of date business model, this is about changing current laws and controlling the technology so that a new business model can take off.

A few times in this thread a new business model had been referred to... Can someone articulate what this business model is? Will these new business' be able to create profits in ways that don't conflict with current copyright laws? I recognize that many see the television networks as companies that are scared their model of business will face increased competition. But why does that make their business model outdated?

Regards.

Re:What they're really scared of...

[aka-ed]

Now if only there was a legal way of obtaining content.

It's called video capture, and it's 100% legal for your own use; sharing with a friend is only slightly gray (though sharing with strangers, via newsgroups, for instance, is almost certainly illegal).

The nvidia "Personal Cinema" and ATI's latest Radeon 8500 "All In Wonder" provide much better TiVo/Replay functionality than previous low-end capture solutions, and will probably continue to improve. With a sufficiently powerful system, these cards can capture as well as a TiVo or Replay; with the right software (like PowerVCR), commercial skipping is available as well.

Unfortunately, no existing programming guide gives click-and-record programming capabilities for these devices, but "sharing" -- and archival recording -- is a hell of a lot easier!

Wait, wait

[Anonymous Coward]

"We believe we should be thought of as a potential partner in expanding the industry, not as an adversary of content creators." Partner? Does this mean he wants the TV companies to pay them certain premiums that stops you from skipping certain commercials?

Sham on the Television industry.

[pigeonhed]

5 Networks all in the business of making money. I can imagine millions of american families paying upwards of $500 a pop for a service like this.

How do they miss this as a source of revenue? First they allow the cable industry to bite into the pie now another group of companies giving their "customers" services they would be more than happy to pay for. Sounds like just bad business moves.

Is the product illegal or wrong. Of course not. There is plenty of FREE TO DISTRIBUTE TV available. The local channels and PBS. A product cannot be illegal if it does not break the law simply by exsisting. The only real crime here as that their own "customers" will be going to companies that actually offer a piece of hardware for their services. A purchase of a TV and VCR can provide the same services they object to.

It is all about the money involved in our purchasing habits. American culture is constantly wanting more and more entertainment by digital means. The TV industry looks like a lame investment of money. Wake up and offer what the people ask for. Otherwise the product exists and it will continue. The american dollar always can purchase.

This is soooo typical

[Exmet Paff Daxx]

"Industry experts said the suit by ABC owner Walt Disney, CBS owner Viacom and NBC owner General Electric"

Well there it is; their chips are on the table. The same manufacturers who own a controlling stake in Tivo and Microsoft's DVR are using the straw man of "high speed digital piracy" to try to maintain their death grip on the way television is distributed.

The fanatical devotion of these companies is amazing; look at the lengths that Hughes has gone to to shut down all 12 of the DirectTV hackers who are "pirating" the satellite signal that Hughes is shining through their houses. Here we have the same concept, large corporations trying to control what consumers do with the radiation that is being beamed through the walls of private property. It's not just insulting, it's absurd.

And let's look at the players here. Viacom, owner of MTV, the most "liberal" espousing network in existence turns out to be managed by conservative, nearly fascist "intellectual property" zealots. Disney, well, their CEO Michael Eisner - and please don't take this the wrong way - but this is just another example of why money is green. Another jew trying to pick it before it's ripe. And finally General Electric, the pioneer of corporate dominance.

Yes sir, a real winners circle right there. I just hope the consumers get enough of these on the market before the product is destroyed that there will at least be an outcry, like there was with Napster.

Re:This is soooo typical

[barfy]

DANGIT... I have no moderation points, will SOMEONE PLEASE give this the flamebait that this deserves.

It is wrong, racist, and well flamebait.

Re:This is soooo typical

[hearingaid]

look at the lengths that Hughes has gone to to shut down all 12 of the DirectTV hackers who are "pirating" the satellite signal that Hughes is shining through their houses

Which universe do you live in? Hell, I know more than 12 DirecTV hackers myself. There are thousands of 'em.

Re:This is soooo typical

[egomaniac]

Here we have the same concept, large corporations trying to control what consumers do with the radiation that is being beamed through the walls of private property.

I want some of what you're smoking. Hughes is beaming the signal, at their cost -- and you think it's unreasonable for them to want to get paid for it?

Launching a multi-million-dollar satellite into space isn't free, nor is keeping it running and fed with data. If they weren't paid for it, then nobody would have satellite TV.

If you want the shit to be free, you build the frickin' satellite, put it in orbit, and let everybody in North America use it for free. Otherwise, give it a rest. This "information wants to be free" crap is getting pretty old when all it really means is "I don't like paying for anything".

Re:This is soooo typical

[Happy Monkey]

I want some of what you're smoking. Hughes is beaming the signal, at their cost -- and you think it's unreasonable for them to want to get paid for it?

If I mail something to you unsolicited, I can't require that you pay for it, even if you actually want it and decide to keep it.

Re:This is soooo typical

[egomaniac]

If I mail something to you unsolicited, I can't require that you pay for it, even if you actually want it and decide to keep it.

And this is ... what? A reason why it should be legal to steal satellite TV?

I'll try to use smaller words this time.

If - nobody - pays - for - satellite - TV - there - will - be - no - satellite - TV.

That's all I'm saying. If stealing the signal (i.e. decoding it without paying for it) were legalized, the net result would be that satellite TV would instantly disappear. It would no longer be in anybody's interest to broadcast it. Unless you're arguing that the world would be a better place if this happened, or expounding upon a scenario in which it wouldn't happen like that, you aren't making a useful point.

People need to make money, folks. They provide a useful service, you pay 'em for it. If you don't want to pay them, you'd better not expect service. This isn't a new phenomenon.

Re:This is soooo typical

[cpt kangarooski]

People don't need to make money where they're being thoroughly artificially propped up, however. I'd be perfectly happy to see cancer eliminated, even though it would be quite a blow to oncologists. People do _not_ have a natural right to make money. People do _not_ have a natural right to copyrights.

I suspect that were decryption of the signal legal, some bright fellow would still figure out a way to make money off of it. Maybe not as _much_, but enough to keep it all going. Remember, profits are inefficiencies in the system... razor-thin margins are ideal.

Re:This is soooo typical

[Happy Monkey]

If I mail something to you unsolicited, I can't require that you pay for it, even if you actually want it and decide to keep it.

And this is ... what? A reason why it should be legal to steal satellite TV?

I'll try to use smaller words this time.

If - nobody - pays - for - satellite - TV - there - will - be - no - satellite - TV.


That is true of the business plan I described as well, but it doesn't make it a good business plan.

Re:This is soooo typical

[Anonymous Coward]

We're your satellite company. We make money the old-fashioned way...we have laws passed that make it illegal for you to decode our signal without paying us.

It doesn't matter that it costs the satellite company money to launch satellites and buy programming, etc. Boo hoo hoo! Poor little company. Try reducing your margins rather than incarcerating people who don't pay you.

If the service were priced more reasonably, then there would be very little reason for me to buy an "illegal" descrambler. A lower price would mean more customers. More customers would mean more money for them. No law required.

Now they'll start charging us

[WiggyWack]

So ad revenues will go down because less people are watching the commercials and soon I'll have to pay a buck every time I want to watch The X-Files. Yay.

Re:Now they'll start charging us

[Anonymous Coward]

Better than me paying every time I buy groceries just so you can watch it for free.

I'm happy with the HBO model, and they have better shows too.

Re:Ever heard of "Obnoxious"?

[HamNRye]

The banner ad died, we cheered. Then came the pop-under, the flash ad between pages, etc.

Yes, perhaps the idea of putiing commercials into breaks in the programming so that it does not interfere with the content is over. Commercials will be integrated into the program so that it cannot be skipped without skipping the program.

Yes, we now get to see a station badge in the lower right corner, and now we will have a marquee running across our shows too. "Make 7 Up Yours!"

Hammy

Nice DVR...only one thing missing.

[A_Non_Moose]

Shows worth watching.

An episode of *anything* more than 5 years old that hasn't been butchered (think MASH) to the point of unwatchability.

Intelligent commercials...some of the producers or whatever should be flogged with their own film...camera still atttached.

It was inevitable a device such as this came about...for all the talk years ago of V chips (violence chips) none of these idiots ever thought of a Commercial chip...well, here it is.

And maybe I am too much of a geek, ethernet is nice...what it really needs is a RAID tower and LVD 360M scsi...OOoooo.

Re:Ever heard of "Obnoxious"?

[Syberghost]

Perhaps worse; we're all getting widescreen TVs now. How about instead of widescreen versions of the shows, HDTV ends up carrying a 4:3 show in the middle of the screen with ads on either side?

Not broadcast material they are worried about.

[barfy]

Ok, slashdotters, think outside the "box" will ya...

Ok, it is a little about broadcast material. It will allow transfer of information outside the advertisor's area. (look at the SHIVA laws regarding protection of local broadcast rights and the effect it is going to have on picture quality of DBS systems)...

But here is where it really matters. ALL PAY PER VIEW material. This includes Actual PPV, Premium Channels, DVD's, and Video's from blockbuster. Since the Replay will be able to record anything coming in on a given channel (like channel 3) at high resolution, and then distributed across the Internet to those that have not payed for the privelage, a technology like this, will result in less potential income to content producers. Less money to HBO, less to Disney, Less to Don King, less to the WWF.

The biggest difference between this and VCR is convenience and distribution. Distribution of Video tapes is so limited to not really matter in terms of money. When distribution becomes "easy" (And in this case, Napster is an appropriate analog), then non-payment use of PPV material becomes rampant and uncontrolled.

In this case it will only be a matter of creating "replay" groups that will create material that will be "easy" to get... "Hey, I missed the last episode of the Soprano's can someone send it to me?" "Does, any one have "Shrek?""

Fair use laws never intended to allow easy distribution of copies of material in a fashion that allows use outside of the intended commercial distribution method. It is meant to allow fair personal use.

IANAL but I think that they can demonstrate that this moves from personal use, to extra-commercial distribution of intellectual property, without compensation to the owners of that property.

Re:Not broadcast material they are worried about.

[Anonymous Coward]

SonicBlue addresses that with the 4000s. It obeys Macrovision controls, so tapes and DVDs can be recorded into the box, but the copy cannot be sent, and it will have Macrovision on the output if you try to play it to a VCR and tape it.

It also obeys CGCS (Content Guidance Control System, I think) that is an inband broadcast control of whether a program can be copied. If it is in the signal, the program can be recorded, but not sent to someone. So, Pay Per View channels should always broadcast in CGCS, and other channels pick and choose. I could see HBO doing Sopranos CGCS off and feature movies CGCS on.

Distribution: Max sending of 15 copies to friends, if Macrovision or CGCS does not block. That attempts to kill the Napster analogy.

Convience: Medium quality = 2 GB/hour or 4.5 Mbps of bandwidth. So a T1 saturates for 3x the duration of the video, and ISDN would crawl at 36 hours transfer time for 1 hour of video. Not very convienent.

ObOldQuote: What's the bandwidth of a van loaded with 9 track tapes?

Re:Not broadcast material they are worried about.

[aka-ed]

In this case it will only be a matter of creating "replay" groups that will create material that will be "easy" to get... "Hey, I missed the last episode of the Soprano's can someone send it to me?" "Does, any one have "Shrek?""

The newsgroup alt.binaries.multimedia is already bloated with traffic from people capturing and uploading tv episodes. Go here and search for "Enterprise" or "Buffy" in that group. You don't even need a Replay or a capture card to download every episode of these series, with patience.

The barn door is already wide open. If they shoot down Replay, will they go after my "Personal Cinema" card next?

Re:Not broadcast material they are worried about.

[ReplayPatrick]

It also obeys CGCS (Content Guidance Control System, I think) that is an inband broadcast control of whether a program can be copied.

It's CGMS - Content Generation Management System, and yes, both it and Macrovision are honored and disallow outside-the-home sharing of content.

Re:Ever heard of "Obnoxious"?

[haruharaharu]

that's fine - i'll grab a widescreen to 4:3 converter that chops off the sides.

Hackability

[Lumpy]

anyone have a clue to the hackability? The thing that's been holding me back on these is the required "service" to just see schedule or set the clock. I want my pvr to talk to my server which gather's show information from the net via perl scripts.

Free info, and my control. control of my viewing habit data.

Re:Hackability

[AaronW]

The service is obtained over the Ethernet connection, so it should go through your server and automatically download the information. I would guess that since the data is going over the Ethernet it will be reverse engineered (unless they encrypt the data). If you use your server as a firewall (or even if you don't) it is a simple matter to look at all the data.

As for the required "service", I don't understand your complaint, because unlike TiVo the service is included with the product with no service fee.

Also, if it is like my current Replay box (which I hacked by adding a second hard drive :) the TV listings also include various categories, and you can update your settings and selections via a web portal. I can see what my Replay is set to record and can change it via the web from work and the next time my box dials in it will get the updated settings. I would guess that this box will be even more powerful since it uses a broadband connection, where you should be able to access it directly.

-Aaron

Must have (Can't Have)

[actappan]

Great, the list of stuff my wife won't let me buy (but that I REALLY need) gets longer.

Congrats to SonicBlue for their bravery. Be very afraid of the IP Lawyers. Be Very Afraid.

CPRM Disks ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Any ideas on how CPRM (Content Protection for Recordable Media) enableddisks might affect these types of recorders ?

Pause Technology Owns PVR Patent - Suing TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

They've not yet been sued by Pause Technology who owns the patent on PVR - pausing live TV for subsequent playback. Motorola has licensed the technolgoy from Pause Technology. More at Pause Technology Commences Patent Infringement Lawsuit Against TiVo.

Re:Pause Technology Owns PVR Patent - Suing TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should they, until they know how the Tivo case turns out? This patent is a pretty trivial and obvious "invention" so maybe they think Tivo will win. And if Tivo wins, these guys win.

Re:Ever heard of "Obnoxious"?

[Syberghost]

Congratulations, you now have a 50" widescreen TV with a 19" 4:3 picture. For a couple grand, plus the cost of your converter.

It'd be cheaper to just tape a couple of pieces of paper over the screen.

Truth in advertising...

[tswinzig]

At some point in SonicBlue is going to be forced to send a software update to disable or alter some of the features of the 4000. Unless there is a way to hack the software to have a fully functional system without taking software updates, you're just wasting your money on this.

If SonicBlue ever sends down an update that takes away functionality that is advertised (printed on the box, mentioned on their website, etc), then they would do this at their own peril. It'd be like shouting, "I hope all of our customers get together and file a class action lawsuit against us!"

I think the MPAA or similar organization could get an injunction stopping the sale of these units, but could they force SonicBlue to send out an update taking away functionality that was promised to the customer during the sale?

Talk about prompting a backlash... yeesh.

Re:Truth in advertising...

[RedX]

If SonicBlue ever sends down an update that takes away functionality that is advertised (printed on the box, mentioned on their website, etc), then they would do this at their own peril. It'd be like shouting, "I hope all of our customers get together and file a class action lawsuit against us!"

As someone else pointed out in this thread, the legalease on their site states "SONICblue reserves the right to automatically add, modify, or disable any features in the operating software when your ReplayTV 4000 connects to our server."

What I envision happening at some point is a judge declaring that ReplayTV 4000 can only share programs that the networks allow them to, sort of an opt-in for the networks. So technically Sonicblue wouldn't be guilty of false advertising since you can still share *some* programs. At any rate, the disclaimer above seems to cover them removing features as they please.

Re:Truth in advertising...

[Monte]

If SonicBlue ever sends down an update that takes away functionality that is advertised (printed on the box, mentioned on their website, etc), then they would do this at their own peril.

If they do it at all, it will be because the court orders them to. You don't like it? Talk to the judge.

As a current Replay owner I was offered (via the wonderful "pause commercials") a deal where I could get one at $100 and not have to pay until May 2002. As much as I'm drooling over the 4000 series, I have serious reservations about paying for something that might be taken away later.

God, how I want one though...

Bandwidth for these things?

[Doppler00]

I'd rather not see the average consumer wasting any bandwidth of the internet sending episodes of soap operas to each other. Besides wouldn't an hour of high quality video require sending something like 500MB to 2.0GB of data anyway?

It's a hail mary pass for SonicBlue

[steevo.com]

Of course they are going to release Replay - they don't have much of a choice.

They have invested truck loads of money in R&D into many products that have not seen the light of day. Their investment in RePlay was a gamble... and did not have a diverse enough product line that would absorb a failure from the Replay investment.

If they didn't release it, it is likely they would be toast. They are hoping that the strategy used with the Rio works for them. If they lose the suit, they are toast as well. If they win, they stay alive.

I have karma to burn

[aka-ed]

I'd dearly love to test one of these.

So buy one, you cheap bastard, instead of whoring around for free samples with a /. submission.

Why don't they use it to their advantage?

[Lewis Daggart]

Here's a question: Instead of trying to STOP progress...Why don't Disney and them just make their own recorder? They could even integrate this into ABC somehow: If you have this specific recorder at this time, you will receave this special bonus footage of whatever instead of a commercial break. Something like that. It seems reasonable to me, and is certainly an improvement over bannig anyhing that could hin the lining of their pockets.
Anyway, just a thought.

on the other hand

[Lord Omlette]

You can watch TV while studying, while doing your homework, while programming, while reading, while chatting over the net, while playing Pokémon, while playing chess, while building a lego robot, while listening to music, while painting, while cuddling with your sweety...

It's all good, and stuff...

Mind yourself....

[moonboy]

Perhaps I don't like to go outside.
Needlessly dirtying my hide.

Perhaps I have better things to do.
Inside warm and cozy too.

I don't understand all of the fuss.
The outdoors may not be for all of us.

Television is great and entertains.
I'll watch if I want despite your complaints.

Leave me alone, be on your way.
I'm watching TV, right here I'll stay.

Not how I always feel, but I just couldn't resist! ;)

Re:Mind yourself....

[Anonymous Coward]

You can sit on your ass inside and read a book too...

LEXX

What happens if they go out of business?

[Anonymous Coward]

I called SonicBlue and asked them, since I am buying a $2k piece of equipment:

Q1. What happens if (when?) they go out of business, and my $2000 unit can no longer contact the Replay-TV server?

A1: The only functionality that would be gone would be the "online guide". The units will fully function without broadband access, but only as a Digital Record/Playback device.

Q2: Can I take the unit to my mother's house and use it without Broadband?

A2: Like I said, the unit is fully functional as a recording/playback device without Broadband or net access. And the programming guides are stored a week at a time, so you have a week before the guides are obsolete. But you cannot share video or use any advanced features without a network connection.

Q3: Will the unit work behind my Firewall/Router.

A3: Absolutely.

Now, I don't know if the guy had a clue, and maybe he was lying to me - but those are the responses I got. Why don't more of us call them and ask, and see how consistant the answers are?

Would this swapping work with HDTV ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I`d like to see anyone swap an hours worth of HDTV programming (if they release a HDTV version) without falling asleep - whats the future for these types of machines ?

big point everyone's missing...

[Anonymous Coward]

...sharing video files over the internet isn't going to be practical for quite some time. The .mpgs and .avis we're all downloading now are teeny tiny things compared to the size of even a 1/2 hour program recorded at the lowest quality on a ReplayTV. We're talking hours and hours and hours just to download one half-hour of programming.

I can see the networks worrying about future abuses, but it isn't really going to be anything to worry about until the 'net gets much much faster than it is now for Joe Sixpack.

I already do that with my Linux computer + PVR!!!

[GMac]

Well not the downloading, but I can remote control the beast and watch it on my computer. Why do I need to store the stuff on my computer, that's what the PVR is for!

A/V Control from your Linux Machine

Sigh

[Anonymous Coward]

The ReplayTV is required to be connected to the Internet.

If SonicBlue loses a court battle over some feature, owners will wake up to find that a midnight ``upgrade'' has occurred, removing the feature.

As long as they sell a significant portion of their `limited quantity' before their first loss, what do they care?

Unless SonicBlue racks up some serious wins, or better yet people start publishing reverse engineered specs, I'm not going near them. Fortunately, most of the boxes will be deployed directly on geeks' home networks, so with luck the reverse engineering will be early and often. Without luck, SonicBlue actually hired somebody intelligent enough to download OpenSSL or the protocol is otherwise encrypted with something more than the typical corporate stupidity.

ReplayTV today, doorstop tomorrow.

[Anonymous Coward]

I found this in the tech specs:

SONICblue reserves the right to automatically add, modify, or disable any features in the operating software when your ReplayTV 4000 connects to our server.

I'm sure it will come into play if they have an unfavorable day in court!

Re:ReplayTV today, doorstop tomorrow.

[base3]

Someone needs to emphasize that (perhaps by modding it up?). Tivo got crapped on big time for disabling features with an update (and rightfully so), but here's their competitor explicitly claiming the right to do the same thing.

Commercial TV vs Pay TV

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of fighting people who don't want to watch commercials, why don't the networks offer alternatives? For example, if you want to watch ABC without commercials, you pay $12 a month, like HBO. I don't know about you guys, but I only watch a few channels. I would be willing to pay for commercial-free TV. In fact, I do. I own a Tivo and skip through the commercials. If commercial-free tv was available, I may not have bought one.

Just a thought.

Sonic Blue Support

[Anonymous Coward]

Before you even think about buying a Replay 4000, visit the Replay web site and see what your support options are.

The Sonic Blue attitude seems to be we don't give a shit about our customers. There is no support contact information posted. None.

Signed

A Replay customer with a problem.

make your own Videos and destribute them!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can buy a video capture card.
I can buy a reciever.

But I can't buy the two bundled on one board?

The networks don't own the spectrum in which they broadcast it, they don't even pay for it either. It is really owned by the public. So anything put into that spectrum ought to be public domain.

Networks put out garbage. Why do I want their stuff? What I don't understand is why they think what they produce is really worth anything. If we pay them what it is worth, then we will pay them nothing.

They were given $40 billion in free spectrum for HDTV. Oh great, now I get to see pimples on game show contestants.

These mafias that run the brain-wash industry are so corrupt as to believe their own lies. Thus will they fall, and fall hard when they do. So go get that video capture card and start distributing your own video. It's gotta be better than the mind-fudge put out by the heroin adicts in the New York and LA television mafias. Even if it's a video of the camera laying on the floor and ascue, it would be better.

; )

another bandwidth nazi

[Anonymous Coward]

what business is it of yours how much bandwidth others use? If your connection is slow, then get a wider one.

How do you know that they don't transmit on that new secret network that even slash-dot doesn't know about? So they aren't even using the network as you know it.

It's pretty cool having a direct connection at 100 based T speeds. Good thing that the FCC doesn't know about this. And it is spreding like wildfire. Soon we will all be free of these telecom and entertainment mafias.

And will do it all and all of the fasholes won't even know.

HOO HOO HOO HOOO HOO.

privledge and power are OBSOLETE

GE Carousel of Progress

[calidoscope]

For some fun, check out http://www.yesterland.com - especially the section on the Carousel of Progress. Be sure to pay attention to the dates.

Ironic in that GE (now parent of NBC) and Disney (now parent of ABC) were promoting the use of video tape recorders for recording TV broadcasts. It doesn't take too much of a stretch for someone to just hand a tape over to some friends.

OT

[Anonymous Coward]

We're talking hours and hours and hours just to download one half-hour of programming.

(I'm not addressing your point.)

Isn't it interesting that it takes hours and hours to transmit from one person to another, and yet it can gbe transmitted from the cable company to someone, in exactly half an hour?

There's something wrong happening, I just can't figure out what it is.

...

[Anonymous Coward]

On Oct. 31, ABC, CBS, NBC and their parent companies filed suit against Sonicblue, alleging the devices allow consumers "to make perfect digital copies of the plaintiffs' copyrighted programs" and distribute them to others through high-speed Internet connections.

or

On Oct. 31, ABC, CBS, NBC and their parent companies filed suit against Dell, alleging the devices allow consumers "to make perfect digital copies of the plaintiffs' copyrighted programs" and distribute them to others through high-speed Internet connections.

make iffy uses disabled by default

[DABANSHEE]

All they have to do is sell it with the contentious fanctions disabled by default.

Then make it easy for the end purchaser or retailer to enable those contentious functions by having say a mini screw switch on the PCB acessed by a tiny round hole in the back one could sloyt a csrew driver down.

Just like DVD players in Oz are virtually all sold with multi-region re-enabled, even though officially they are all only region 4 capable.

Kfir card

[Empty Sands]

I think you mean.

There is also who have a linux based bt878 tv tuner card and a MJEG encoder card.

Not sure what the quality is like on either of those solutions.

Same As A VCR, But Easier

[Anonymous Coward]

If I own a ReplayTV, I can record a show on it. If you own a ReplayTV, you can record the same show on it.

Since we both own them, if you forget to record a show, I can send it to you. You had the chance to record it yourself anyway.

People have been trading video tapes like this for years. If I borrow a tape from a friend of a show I missed, I skip the commercials. If I want a copy of it, I make a copy. With $50 VCRs, having two is pretty common.

By comparison, the barrier to entry for ReplayTV copying is much higher. You actually have to KNOW OTHER PEOPLE that own one, and you both need to have high-speed Internet access. This greatly limits the number of people that will have one for the next couple of years.

Status quo, but digital. What's the big deal?

Here is another box...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.bokks.net/

How is this different from PC TV cards?

[jb_nizet]

OK, so with this box, you can record a TV program on your hard drive, do whatever you want with the program, and send it to friends over the internet.

How's this different from TV cards plugged into your PC? And if there is no difference, why don't ABC, CBS and NBC sue the TV cards manufacturers?

Perhaps they already did and these cards don't exist in the US, but here in Europe, they're perfectly legal...

Yes : Just another in a long chain...

[clarkie.mg]

from your comment :
VCRs were supposed to be the end of movie theatres, Photocopy machines were supposed to be the end of books

Yeah, and books were supposed to be the end of people stupidity. It didn't succeed.

Humour aside, any tool that gives more power to the average people regarding the way they use information is a progress. Books - printing, in fact - mark the start of the renaissance, this computing age is the start of God knows what.

This just DRIVES QUALITY

[squaretorus]

VCRs were supposed to be the end of movie theatres

In fact, VCR IMPROVED attendance at movie theatres overall. It widened the scope for the movies, bringing a wholenew audience in. I'm not a huge movies fan, but watching crappy VHS copies just kind of makes you want to go to the BIG SCREEN and soak the thing in. It improved the possibility of getting a small film funded because the direct to video revenue stream was viable.

What broadcasters need to do is produce better BROADCAST television, so we find some benefit from watching live / watching through their hardware. Other than sporting events I cannot think of an example of a TV show I'd pay extra to watch 'live'

OR they need to find a different charging mechanism than subscription / advertising.

Actually. All TeeVee should be funded like the BBC. The BBC is great!

"DVRs don't infringe, people infringe"

[Hard_Code]

"We feel very strongly that this product violates copyright laws, and we intend to pursue our case vigorously," she said.

Just remember - DVRs don't infringe copyright, people infringe copyright.

Re:Ever heard of "Obnoxious"?

[Giggles Of Doom]

Don't give them any ideas!

Re:Ever heard of "Obnoxious"?

[Myko]

And, you get screen burn on the sides to boot so when you DO watch a widescreen movie, the sides have crappy contrast from the burn you stupidly allowed to occur by always having the side bars up when watching TV...

Replay 4000: The Ultimate Pr0n Machine

[Monte]

There was discussion on a DVR board about the ability of the 4000 series to download content from the Internet - why not? You've got the web connection, you've got the hard drive, let's go. Think about that - content delivered on-demand (well, overnight most likely) with the press of a few buttons. No network censorship, no national boundries... we all know what that means.

PORN! And lots of it! Porn drives all the new technologies, it will drive the 4000 to be wildly popular. Pay a buck or two, and download LIVE GOATSE.CX!!! onto you Replay, to enjoy in the privacy of your own home.

This is a marvelous advance in home pr0n delivery. Thank you, Sonic Blue!

hmmm....hook this up to a wireless network and

[EdmondDantes]

you are now a (re)broadcaster! Now all my neighbors can have Play Boy chanel!

Has anyone actually bothered to do the math?

[jbarr]

A two hour show recorded at high quality on a ReplayTV box (regardless of model) uses about 3GB per hour or 6GB of disk space. Given that my AT&T broadband connection is capped at 128k upload speeds (which is common, I understand), it would take about 12 hours to transfer a show.

While this would definatly be useful for certain cases, do you really think that shows are going to be really be sent that often?

Yes, it's ultimatly a bandwidth issue, but given current infrastructure, this "feature" may not be so enticing.

It is a VCR!

[Grax]

That's just silly. It is simply a modern VCR. Toss out the case and move on.

Does anyone have one yet?

[Duitama]

I was wondering if any one has one of the 4000 units yet? They should have shipped by now and some may have arrived on consumers door steps.

Any initial reviews?