SGI Sets Sights On Turnaround

grub wrote to us about an article about SGI, and its ongoing battles to turn its corporate fortunes around. The company's been doing interesting stuff for a long time - here's to hoping they stay around.

Comments

I do believe

[Anonymous Coward]

that this would be my first can of air. I mean post.

Re:I do believe

[Svencer]

..second isn't quite as good.

Re:I do believe

[Anonymous Coward]

what about bronze? At least we get medals -Admin SplashBlob

Doing interesting stuff?

[Axe]

Doing interesting stuff for a time? You mean, dropping good products, laying people off and trying to jump into PC business, cause their CEO reads magazines that say Dell is genious and everybody should be doing like Dell.. And then said CEO just leaves, after ruining the company? Interesting stuff indeed..

If they want a turn around - get the old name back for a start.. It always was Silicon Graphics for me, not a nameless TLA...

Re:Doing interesting stuff?

[DivineOb]

Psychopathologist
Find this song on Sheet music, CD

Effervescing entrails corroding after years
The stench of the canker brings me no tears
Festering tumours of cancerous decay
Gnawed and chewed by maggots with malicious hate

I like to slide my hand inside your stomach
And rip out the putrid remains,
Drink the pus and munch on the internal organs
Until all the casket is drained.
It's fun being a pathologist - slicing up corpses
Especially when they have just been exhumed,
I like doing autopsies on festering carcasses -
I get high sniffing on all the fumes

(Solo: Inquisitive Brutality)

The sound of rancid juices sloshing around your coffin
The mould and the gore remind me of that you're rotting
Congealed blood clotted around both sets of veins
The beautiful colour of your decomposing brain

Re:Doing interesting stuff?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think they are talking about AFTER the
nutty events your talking about.

Re:Doing interesting stuff?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right. Certain CEOs have done extreme damage to SGI by making horrible focus changes to the company.

its SGI now and not silicon graphics because their desktop type graphics machine sales are down. They have some high end graphics solutions, but overall they're gaining market share elsewhere.

first post

[Jowr]

first post

Re:first post

[Anonymous Coward]

Attention: jowrsdf.lonestar.org, please stop first post nonsense.

Re:first post

[Anonymous Coward]

Oops. I screwed up on my demunging. :-)

Attention: jowr@sdf.lonestar.org, please stop first post nonsense.

sgi & windows...

[Prolixium]

I think SGI was better off when they only made IRIX/MIPS-based systems. I don't know why they started to make WINTEL systems anyway...seems like such a waste...

Re:sgi & windows...

[skotte]

While i cant agree more about MIPS/IRIX being their best idea to date ... i gotta say, the wintel boxes they made are/were the best i'd ever used. we had a visual workstation 230 and a 320 in the office, both running NT, and they totally ran circles around any other windows machine in the building (comapqs and HPs mostly)

so yeah .. NT was their worst idea to date .. but boy they did it right.

oh yeah -- did i mention they came with DETAILED instructions on how to setup a dual boot? probably my fFavorite part :)

Re:sgi & windows...

[skotte]

you know -- if i may be so bold as to reply to my own post -- their leap to wintel should be a good clue to others about the total inefficiency of the wintel platform.

pretty simple corrollary really: use wintel, lose money.

sure sure .. there's more fFactors than that at work here. like a down market, and the fFact that they were trying to get a giant hold in a somewhat fFlooded market.

but this, too, pushes the statement: if you are going to sell wintel, be prepared to lose a LOT of money in trying to make your mark.

Re:sgi & windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is my opinion not that of my employeer (yes I work for SGI). We have stopped producing the NT boxen and although still supported it is very unlikely we will produce any more IA-32 boxes. IA-64 however is a different story with the 750 still and ongoing concern

Re:sgi & windows...

[PotatoHead]

I am using one right now. They are *nice* boxes. They were built using the same design methodology as their current IRIX/MIPS boxes are. System level PROM, custom HAL for NT, nicely intergrated GFX, Audio, and Video I/O. All for $4000 or so if you bought the right configuration. Kind of like a next generation O2 that runs NT.

UMA design on the GFX allow insane amounts of texture with little performance loss. (500Mb texture is no problem on these little boxes.)

Maybe they were too good. I do know at the time you could not find another NT machine that offered the features at anywhere near the price of the 320.

Anyway, they were not canned because the market did not accept them. They were canned because they were litigated and dealt out of existance. From the legal issues surrounding the boot-loader partially owned by M$ and their M$ deal for GFX, they were locked into win32 only, or give up their plans for the line.

These machines were supposed to run Linux with full 3D support for an awesome chipset. Shown at Siggraph 99. This combined with the proposed library and system software ports would have made a very nice workstation. Linux would have benefited nicely from this a couple years ahead of schedule. It is well known that Microsoft does not want anyone selling windows to sell anything else particularly on machines that make the process easy, so...

Between that legal mess and some reluctance on the Open Source communities part to accept SGI work, owners of these machines are left with a very nice non-upgradable win2000 box. (Not that I ever want XP, but I DO WANT 3D LINUX dammit.)

help, please

[Sam4522]

Dudes, I have something really important to tell you guys. I'm NOT trying to sound like a troll, so PLEASE don't take me as one. Just listen to what I have to say. This morning while I was eating breakfast and watching TV, I had a vision. I normally don't have visions and I'm not crazy, okay. In this vision I saw three red lights swirling around. They were like forming a circle as they swirled faster and faster. Then the lights moved closer together and formed a single light that turned blue. I noticed the light was the bottom of a spaceship. The blue light moved down like it was landing and I saw trees and a grass field. Then the spaceship started talking to me...like, the people inside the spaceship were talking to me even though I couldn't see them, only the ship I could see. I didn't really understand what they were saying. It sounded like whispers and jibberish. Then, all of a sudden, I woke up from the vision and was sitting at my kitchen table again. I don't understand what happened. I'm am absolutely serious about this. Can somebody help me understand what happened? PLEASE?

Re:help, please

[Prolixium]

it's just a preview of some new special-effects that SGI is showing off...

shouldn't it be posted in another area? come on

Re:help, please

[DivineOb]

Defenestration
Find this song on Sheet music, CD
Lyrics by Lord Worm
Oh what a gal!
She seems such a perfect victim:
This I can tell, for if beauty by guilt,
she's guilty

Ordinarily,
I'd not wish to frighten her or hurt her,
But such beauty inspires one
to give the gift of murder

She's the kind of girl you want to
run up and tackle through a window some floors up
and spatter you both to hell

Come and get it;
your stuffed bunny's at the window,
But not that far out...
Reach little one! Reach!...

Tantalized a child is want to
take a ill-considered
course of action; such is life:
is experience not bitter?

Leaning too far
out the open attic casement window,
baby plummets
to a messy death not so far below

Rend your flesh to ribbons
on shards of broken glass,
fading screams and abruptly:

Defenestration

page lengthening post!

[Anonymous Coward]

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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Re:page lengthening post!

[Anonymous Coward]

why hasn't this been modded down to -1 yet? At least give the people reading at 0 a chance...

Re:page lengthening post!

[Retarded_One]

+1, INSIGHTFULL!!!!!

Re:page lengthening post!

[Retarded_One]

Leave the artiste alone. You just don't understand /art.

No mention of linux

[barneyfoo]

I'm really surprised that linux wasn't mentioned a single time in this article, despite that fact that the competitive landscape of hollwywood rendering farms was "analyzed". Seems very fishy, considering that SGI is putting alot of man hours into making linux more enterprise ready, and leveraging it into commodity servers.

.... Or am I reading SGI wrong? What is SGI's relationship to linux, and why doesn't this article mention linux once? Just wondering.

Re:No mention of linux

[Jay Carlson]

I'm really surprised that linux wasn't mentioned a single time in this article, ...

Willard said the company's exit from the commodity NT server business was a good one. Its current strategy, to focus on its proprietary, high-end systems running Irix, its version of the Unix operating system and Linux, makes sense.

Well, it was mentioned *once*....

Re:No mention of linux

[barneyfoo]

yeah, but that's basicly no mention at all. What investor (seems like it's geared towards) wouldn't know about a relationship between SGI and linux? Come on, put some more meat on them bones, article writer.

Re:No mention of linux

[DivineOb]

Yes, but they do listen to death metal there

Vomited Anal Tract
Find this song on Sheet music, CD

Oral eruption
Rectal extroversion...

Your vagus implodes, as nausea strikes
Savaging your body in terminal retch
Violent spasms and decaying enzymes
Engulf your throat as you belch

Intestinal disturbance, your ileum turns inside-out
Your duodenum is thrust up towards your mouth
Your pancreas excretes stale septic pus
Your whole digestive system is now a sticky mush

Rectal vomit in your thorax
Retch your anal tract

Liquidized oesophagus mixes with bloodied excretion
As you pathetically gasp for breath
The stench of hot faeces scorch your nose
As you violently vomit to death

Your intestines are rising, up towards your throat
Stale bile escaping through your bloodied nose
Your colon digested into acidic slush
Your tongue gargling on your dislocated anus

(Solo: Grotesque Anal Disgorgement)

Re:No mention of linux

[Anonymous Coward]

What is SGI's relationship to linux, and why doesn't this article mention linux once?

I'm posting this anonymously because I don't wanna get in trouble in case any of this is confidential. I don't think it is, but you never know.

SGI's official relationship to Linux is this: none whatsoever. At one time, there were some pretty serious plans to port core OS libraries, build abstraction layers and shims, and phase out the IRIX kernel in favor of Linux. It was thought to be easier to turn Linux into a real commercial-quality kernel (not my words; don't flame me!) than to port 60-odd million lines of IRIX to the then-proposed IA-64-based Origin 3000 variant. These plans have been informally shelved, meaning SN-IA is still a product on the roadmap, but nobody is working on it. It seems to have been put in the "maybe after McKinley" category.

(Take all of this as unofficial comment, of course, but this paragraph is total speculation on my part. I wonder if part of the reason IA-64 isn't really going anywhere in this market is because of the lack of a really good Fortran compiler for it. The MIPSpro Fortran 77 compiler, which I've worked with a lot, kicks ass, and I understand the F90 one does as well. Getting all of that tuned, optimized Fortran code to run on IA-64s seems to be a challenge for a lot of folks that are long-time die-hard SGI customers.)

SGI is officially committed to continuing to develop and ship systems based on the MIPS processors (R12000, R14000, and the upcoming R16K, and R20K) with the IRIX OS until further notice, which is to say that they're not opposed to exploring other options, but there just isn't any reason to switch that plan right now. The Origin 3000 server is a great piece of work, and the new lower-end Origin 300 is selling nicely, too. On the workstation side, believe it or not the humble little O2 is still selling briskly-- now with R7000 or R12000 processors, painted purple, and called O2+. Octane2 kicks ass, and a new workstation to be announced in January or February is also going to be based on MIPS/IRIX, combining Octane2 graphics with Origin 3000-style architecture.

So the official story is MIPS/IRIX forever.

Unofficially, SGI loves Linux. Check out oss.sgi.com sometime to see what SGI is doing with respect to Linux specifically (XFS, kdb, bigmem, NUMA, STP, etc) and Open Source in general (GLX, Inventor, Performer, etc).

Re:No mention of linux

[skotte]

Nice post. well spoken. i have one point of difference tho. this is old information, but it's information.

about a year ago, when SGI fFirst started pushing linux, they held a number of meet-n-greet seminars about linux and what it can do fFor you .. you know, bring people in, talk all morning, give people coffee and donuts and some cheap handouts. all that. and of course they talked a great deal about oss.sgi.com.

After the event, I asked one of the event organizers whether linux was to replace IRIX. he told me fFlat out, "oh no, IRIX will always be the big engine. it handles larger machines .. yadda yadda .. Linux will be fFor desktops, and small networks."

so, according to what i know, they werent going to replace IRIX, just accompany it.

But i dont know your sources or their reliability. :) hell, you might be Bob Bishop hisself :) in which case, it's safe to say your source is better than mine :)

Re:No mention of linux

[Anonymous Coward]

You wrote: After the event, I asked one of the event organizers whether linux was to replace IRIX. he told me fFlat out, "oh no, IRIX will always be the big engine. it handles larger machines .. yadda yadda .. Linux will be fFor desktops, and small networks."

Heh. I remember saying something like that when asked. I worked on a number of these events for SGI during my tenure there. It was true, then.

SN-IA was still an evil glint in an engineers eye. But most of engineering thought it would be the next-big-thing. Some of us were attempting to point out that not only wasnt it the next big thing, that even if it did occur, uptake would be very slow. Far outside of the rapid revenue we needed. We nay-sayers were generally castigated by senior management and ignored.

Mere months after releasing the 1U server, SGI yanked that and all other IA-32 products off the market. I would not be suprised to learn that they yank the IA-64 products as well. Considering these were the target for Linux, well, how much linux work could they do then? Currently they have 1 linux product, the 750. After that goes away (or gets yanked) I expect them to exit the linux market.

Re:No mention of linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, there's nothing more to say. Linux just isn't interesting nor is Linux in any way a big deal.

Re:No mention of linux

[InsaneGeek]

The reason why they "yanked" the IA-32 line was because they were all OEM'd VA-linux systems. VA-Linux doesn't produce them anymore and the margins weren't there on the IA-32 line to try and find another provider (making 10 bucks per system wasn't making it worth while).

Re:No mention of linux

[Anonymous Coward]

About your capital F's They really look weird. Very distracting. Behold the fF!!! Why the hell do you do that?

Re:No mention of linux

[foobar104]

The reason why they "yanked" the IA-32 line was because they were all OEM'd VA-linux systems.

Not entirely. The 1400, 1450, 1200, and 1100 were all OEM machines-- I'm not sure by whom; maybe VA Linux or maybe somebody else-- and they were cancelled. The 230, 330, and 550 were also OEM systems-- definitely not by VA Linux; I think by Acer, maybe?-- and they were cancelled.

But SGI had also just recently acquired the Zx10 product line from Intergraph, and that stuff was all killed, too.

The IA-32 shutdown was complete and total, across all of SGI's products, not just the OEM servers.

Re:No mention of linux

[Reikk]

To be honest, Irix 6.5 is really THE best Unix operating system in the world. It is incredibly scalable and stable. Graphics (SGI invented OpenGL, and are still the masters), guaranteed I/O, realtime video manipulation, HDTV, stable XFS filesystem, clustering, the digital media libraries, and more.

SGI has done so much to try to help Linux. They've ported the awesome XFS filesystem. And the Linux community is ignoring it (ext3, reiserfs? give me a break!). They've written a linux kernel debugger. Linus has refused to include a debugger in the Linux kernel because he doesn't believe in debuggers!!

Linux will not become a viable option for many in the enterprise until they find someone with leadship skills (ie. not Linus, RMS, and Alan Cox). Perhaps Linux will find what it needs in Redhat, IBM, or some other commercial distribution.

My advice to SGI is to ignore Linux like the plague. Instead of developing features sorely lacking from Linux, spend the time to continue to improve Irix (though that may be hard since Irix is nearly perfect), and continue making faster hardware.

Re:No mention of linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Hollywood rendering farms will probably end up running on linux. Ironic how linux will be used to render movies, that open source will make movies more cheaply and then they're going to do whatever they can to support "digital rights management". Maybe the GPL should be rewritten to exclude certain markets from profiting.

SGIs relationship to linux is small now and shrinking. They, first, went into the whole adventure from a management standpoint and not an engineer standpoint. They dont understand open source and they never got the recognition they wanted. Open Source also bit back, go do a search on this site and you'll see an article about the Apache project refusing code from SGI. SGI also did work in cool areas that were not 'obviously sexy'. So it turned into a bad investment for them, and when it came time for layoffs guess who got cut. SGI wanted to be a player with linux, but it just didn't turn out well. You also have to remember that there are a good number of things about their system design which are considered IP and making linux run on those machines would mean publishing details. So linux was never planned for the high end MIPS line.

Re:No mention of linux

[ThatComputerGuy]

Dude, what the hell is up with yout fF's?

Re:No mention of linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Their originial x86 workstations, the 320 and 540, were almost completely developed in house. They dropped the BIOS in favour of some other kind of firmware and developed their own graphics chipset called Cobalt. Those were some of the most remarkable x86 workstations ever.

Re:No mention of linux

[pallotta]

www.sgi.com/linux/ and
www.sgi.com/developers/technology/linux/.
Certainly doesn't look like it's over yet...

Re:No mention of linux

[barneyfoo]

Then why is microsoft trying to destroy the linux community? And if not that, why do they care so much about linux? As a foist against the DOJ?

Re:No mention of linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking as someone who works in a scientific research environment, the lack of a really good Fortran compiler is a deal breaker. There's still too many programs out there (ok, here) in Fortran to do without it.

Another reason the IA-64 isn't doing well may be that it has no application where it stands out. If I need flat-out, nut-busting speed, I will get an Alpha based machine. If I need ungodly numbers of cpu's and memory in one machine, I would get a SGI-MIPS or an Alpha based machine. If I need one or two cpu's, x86, and Linux, or a cluster, I'm getting an Athlon. What app would I buy an Itanium for?

-M

Re:No mention of linux

[Beowulf_Boy]

/me pimp slaps the AC
You idiot, so I'm guessing that Redhat 7.2 XFS CD .iso somehow mysteriously got onto their site?

page lengthening post!

[Klerck]

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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page lengthening post!

[iamklerck]

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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page lengthening post!

[Gay Linux Conspiracy]

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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page lengthening post!

[Page Lengthening Tro]

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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page lengthening post!

[Klerck]

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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page lengthening post!

[Page Lengthening Tro]

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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1

The demise of corporatized Linux

[b.foster]

Having been on the internet since the late 1980s, and a Linux user since 1993, I have seen many changes that Linux has brought to the computing world. I saw Linux grow, from an alternative server OS to a viable contender for the desktop; I saw mindshare grow, from my niche LUG to Wall Street to the audience of Jay Leno's show. Change is often good, and I wouldn't trade the resources that our community has today for the comfort of the close, friendly Linux community of yesteryear.

Unfortunately, the economics of a capitalist society are changing things, and the results are a mixed bag. On one hand, far fewer professional programmers will be employed, full time, to develop open source software that everyone can use for free. On the other hand, though, Corporate America will no longer control key parts of the Linux development effort. As it stands right now, many Linux coders are dependent on corporations for their paychecks; and these corporations choose which projects the open source coders get to work on, and how those projects are to develop. The funding is always welcome, but it has come at the expense of independence from the capitalist society that we shun. Linux was never about money; it was about coders developing the best product they can out of pride and the desire to make their hard work available to everyone.

Companies like SGI, Corel, and LNUX have corrupted the open source ideal. Money is power and power corrupts. Although SGI's contributions to Linux development cannot be understated, nor can their influence be ignored. And when they inevitably go out of business, it will be another nail in the coffin of high end computer graphics, and another notch for freedom in the axe of the open source movement. But life is often bittersweet.

Bill

Re:The demise of corporatized Linux

[wljones]

B. Foster has missed one of the points about free softwae that escapes many. Programmer L. User is hired by Bigbucks Megacorp to write a program for internal use. The programmer, being a cheapskate and idealist, does everything GPL. The company owns the program they bought from him, including the terms of the GPL license. If they share the code, or sell it, to anyone, they must Include all of the source and allow free use, modification, and redistribution. Nothing in the GPL says they must offer their specialized, in-house program to anyone. They can load it on their own computers, file the source, and tell corporate spies to take a flying leap. L. User can write a similar program for the competitor, and charge whatever the market will bear. What cannot be done is force the code to be secret. That is a buyer decision, and L. User has no right to tell a customer to release a purchased program, only that if released, it must be GPL.

Re:The demise of corporatized Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux was never about money; it was about coders developing the best product they can out of pride and the desire to make their hard work available to everyone.

The best product for what purpose?

Re:The demise of corporatized Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

The funding is always welcome, but it has come at the expense of independence from the
capitalist society that we shun.Money is power and power corrupts.

WTF, what is it with this anti-money BS around
free Unix? That is why real money and real power
shun the bunch of dweebs and geeks that hang
around technology. That is why real money and
real power take advantage (justly so!!!) of this
same sort of animal.

You've never been poor, I can tell. NEVER, I bet,
have you had real hunger or watched someone die
because there was no money to help them. So easy
for dumb dweebs to talk about some idealist non-
sense in light of the reality of the situation,
which is, we compete, we struggle, some win,
some lose, SO BE ON THE WINNING SIDE AND F%$K
POVERTY, because it sucks.

Just the sort of lame socialist icehole that I
beat up every year in the fall at college campuses
as they tell me that our sorry asses in the
third world would be better served by socialist
or marxist dogma. Nuke you!!!! Enemy.

CNN article on SGI's Military Contracts

[instinctdesign]

The Silicon Valley article mentions SGI's recent military involvement, but you can also check out this article from CNN which provides a few more interesting details.

page lengthening post!

[Klerck]

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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Irix and Linux

[Shadowin]

Willard said the company's exit from the commodity NT server business was a good one. Its current strategy, to focus on its proprietary, high-end systems running Irix, its version of the Unix operating system and Linux, makes sense.

Hmm, must be a misplaced comma. They offer systems running Linux, but I'm fairly certain that Irix doesn't contain GPLed code. Good move getting away from the NT market.

Re:Irix and Linux

[Xandis]

I think the comma is left-out rather than misplaced since the comma after Linux is fine (I think). Add a comma after 'Unix operating system' and you get that they are focusing on Irix and Linux...rather than having Irix being a version of Linux !!

They have moved from NT but the problem for SGI is that they have also lost time and money with their misguided attempts at doing "other things." Hopefully, the new demand (and money) from government will give them an extra lease on life that can be properly used to build a solid profitable company.

Since the stock is so cheap, it would be nice for some heavy hitters to buy them and make it a private company and some time in the future, if ever, they can take the company public.

SGI needs to do a lot more R&D to ensure that it doesn't lose to others with deep pockets and they also need a clear strategy to determine the proper future of Irix vis a vis Linux.

Being private will take a lot of pressure off their shoulders and allow them to focus on building something sustainable. I wouldn't be surprised if their best bet is to become a smaller research focused software company and letting hardware be handled by others.

page lengthening post!

[iamklerck]

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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first death metal post

[DivineOb]

Excoriating Abdominal Emanation
Find this song on Sheet music, CD

Vilely I defile, chastise, humiliate
Writhing, agonised as I violate to impregnate
With lathering soaps and suds I slowly emenize
Innards gurgulate as they're sickly baptized...

Your rectum I will flood
With bleach, detergents and suds...

Rupturing your gall-blader
Liver bleached and soaked
Lungs now flooded
With bicarbonates and boiling soap
Orifices pumped and plugged
Rectal membrane split
Evaporating your bowels
Anal muscle rips...

I grope in the grime, the evaporating motions slush
Pulverising your gut, in my rubber boots and gloves
Your nates purple and raw, brillo pads scour and cleanse
Sticking plasters on abrased organs, to try and make amends...

...Scour...abrase...scrub...erase....

Your innards I corrode
This process you will loathe
Your innards I evacuate
With my crude methods of hate
(Solo: rectal intubation with intolerable hot enema)

Anal track acidically removed
Along with rotten entrails and stools
Disembowelling in my rage
in your colostomy you suffocate

...Scour...abrase...scrub...erase....

Sadistically sodomizing with my instruments of grime
Force-feeding it down your throat if I find the time
Vaseline and talc soothe the gored ano-obliteration
Sardonically I gloat on your rectal dislocation

Seething with carnage lust
As the plastic tubing in enthrust...

Rupturing your gall-blader
Liver bleached and soaked
Lungs now flooded
With bicarbonates and boiling soap
Orifices pumped and plugged
Rectal membrane split
Evaporating your bowels
Anal muscle rips...

The anus sucked inside out, my victim now distraught
Rectal tissue I scald, as I boil the inner core
The orifice now clean - sanitised, red and raw
Brutally impaling your rectum, this process I adore....
...Scour...abrase...scrub...erase....

Your innards I corrode
This process you will loathe
Your innards I evacuate
With my crude methods of hate
Anal track acidically removed
Along with rotten entrails and stools
Disembowelling in my rage
in your colostomy you suffocate

Save SGI!

[Renraku]

Since SGI obviously has some workings in the field of graphics and chip manufacturing, what if they were to join up with one of the companies like Nvidia or AMD? We could see some much more powerful chips at much lower prices if they did that. They could even write Linux/open source drivers, making the hardware much more compatable with different machines.

Re:Save SGI!

[Temkin]

like Nvidia

It's my understanding Nvidia was originally largely made up of fed-up and/or layed off SGI engineers. Which probably explains why my Nvidia board works so well under the various *nix's.

Temkin

Re:Save SGI!

[castlan]

SGI already did the co-operation thing with NVidia... that's where NVidia's binary XFree drivers came from. That is also how much of the DRI structuring for Xfree86 4.x came about.

As Temkin said, NVidia was largely composed of former SGI people, which explains why the NVidia graphics chips are so perfomant. In fact, the hardware was too good... much of the technology violated SGI patents.

As part of the resolution, they teamed up for the SGI 230 and 540 series of "Visual Workstations" which were basically standard ia32 PCs with professional higher end versions of the geForce called Quadro. They got the best silicon, and what was left was user for the consumer NVidia cards.

The Octane 2 has "much more powerful chips at much lower prices" as a result, it is basically an NVidia graphics chip welded to the Octane's crossbar architecture. Of course, when you talk about SGI/MIPS workstations, "lower prices" is still a relative term.

So your "what if" questions got answered... commodity hardware running free GNU variants supporting free accelerated X11 capable of running immersive 3d environments worthy of Classic SGI demos like Performer Perfly, or even Quake!

-castlan

Re:Save SGI!

[Anonymous Coward]

whoa!!

there are no nVidia chips in an octane 2.
trust me.

Re:Save SGI!

[castlan]

Perhaps you are correct, as I have not actually examined the Octane 2's innards to see for myself, but the documentation for both systems refer to "VPro graphics". I may have assumed too much here, so I recant. But I would like clarification.

Of course!

[nihilist_1137]

Its due to their great songs! get them while their hot. SGI is #15 and they have 5 songs.

"i have a dream, and it's called a graphics pipe/ it really works, and it's not just pc hype".

Re:Of course!

[foobar104]

Its due to their great songs!

I have an original, still-in-the-jewel-case "Octane: The Sound Track" CD. These five classic songs make a great addition to any collection.

1. Ignite Your Mind
2. I Have a Dream
3. OCTANE Swing (featuring the can't-get-it-out-of-your-head lines, "Octane / you're gonna rock-tane!" and "Competition is in shock-tane!" and "Octane, danke shoen!")
4. Retro OCTANE
5. Knee Deep in 3D

I wouldn't part with this disc for all the tea in China, but I'll encode it and send you the files for the right price. ;-)

Re:Of course!

[PotatoHead]

I have this one too. Cool stuff. Just how many other workstation manufacturers do this sort of thing. Might be part of the problem, but I think it shows some extra spunk that make the products great.

SGI

[Chardish]

SGI used to be a real innovator in the field of graphics. Now it seems like companies like ATI and Nvidia are actaully doing more for that field.

I've been thouroughly unimpressed with SGI in recent years.

-Evan.

Re:SGI

[foobar104]

SGI used to be a real innovator in the field of graphics. Now it seems like companies like ATI and Nvidia are actaully doing more for that field.

You know, that's the funny thing about SGI's graphics hardware. InfiniteReality graphics first came out in January, 1996. Since then, SGI has put the same graphics processors on a new system interface for the Onyx2, and tweaked some components in the system twice (called IR2 and IR3, even though the changes were very minor).

InfiniteReality--apart from having the coolest name of any graphics subsystem--has remained essentially unchanged since 1996. IR today has slightly faster geometry processors and much more TRAM than the original IR, but in every other way it is identical.

That's six year old technology, baby. And the rest of the world is just now starting to catch up.

Guess that's why SGI has been selling the same graphics hardware for all this time. Because they can.

Re:SGI

[pqbon]

Given how the company is doing... I would say they can't. They just didn't know they couldn't...

Re:SGI

[skotte]

nah. they just didnt know they couldnt sell wintel.

in fFact.. get this: the visual workstation 320 came out fFirst, a couple years ago. solid kick ass machine. hardwired kick ass graphics card, the whole nine yards. one problem tho: if you wanted a different graphics card, you basically couldnt, or it was a lot of work. and the add-ons and stunning graphics made it fFairly expensive, and hard to sell. so -- and this is the fFunny part -- they downgraded the next year's models, put in slower dumber cards, and actually dropped the system's version number to 230 indicating it's a lesser machine.

thats right.. their intended equipment was actually TOO GOOD. not many companies can seriously claim this.

even if the wintel strategy was a bad move, by golly they did it up right

Re:SGI

[Anonymous Coward]

You wrote That's six year old technology, baby. And the rest of the world is just now starting to catch up. Guess that's why SGI has been selling the same graphics hardware for all this time. Because they can.

I am reminded of the saying "Never attribute to malice that which may be attributed to stupidity."

SGI sold the same stuff for years for several simple reasons. I know, I was there watching this drama unfold. Basically the issues were as follows:

• followon project mismanagment: It took how many years to get odyssey out the door? Bali never really made it out. The 6 year old technology is being sold because the followon technology never got to a salable point
  
• an insane merger: causing SGI to focus inward on battles it should have never fought, and made it take its eyes off the market. In 1995 they commented that they had the largest number of web servers around, and didnt understand why. Amazing.
  
• lossage of quality people: competing with the Dot-Bombs was hard.
  
• layoffs of large fractions of unpopular teams: So if your VP lost some turf wars, during the layoff penalty phase, your team got whacked.
  
• general cluelessness and management malaise: Why SGI hired some of its senior management... I will never know. It seems as if they wanted to fail. Mr. Coleman was the prime example of this.
  
• product transitions: such as when they transitioned the odyssey team to nVidia, and they all left.
  

No, SGI sold 6 year old technology because it had no other choice, not because it could. I remember some benchmarks towards the end where PC's with simple graphics cards from nVidia were completely destroying the Octane on graphics and computing intensive tasks at a major OEM customer of SGI's. I can run performer town on my laptop in 1280x1024 mode faster than I can on my old O2. Inventor screams on my desktop, on par with my old Octane2.

In short, SGI was lapped. They never got a clue once they lost it, and they thought their shit didnt stink. The reality is that their products are slower than PCs in many cases, and most of their competitors are better/faster/more likely to survive. The only real thing that SGI has going for it these days is its large scale graphics, which no one else can do. They can drive display centers like no one else.

But then again, in typical SGI fashion, they will be sitting on their collective asses waiting for the business to find them, rather than hunting down the business. Right now their CEO is running around telling the world that "we are doing better". Not "Hey world, we have the best visualization technology around, so we have help you solve your problems before they get to be problems". Only one of these is a sales pitch intro. The other is begging for handouts.

Re:SGI

[FyRE666]

...thats right.. their intended equipment was actually TOO GOOD...

Well, after having used a 320 at work for over 2 years, the phrase "TOO GOOD" hardly springs to mind. Sure, the OpenGL performance is quite good (though nothing close to a GF2, never mind more recent gfx cards) but given the extortionate prices charged for the machines, it's no wonder they couldn't compete with standard PC boxes.

SGI took the idea of a PC, decided to mess with the voltages in the PCI slots for no apparent reason, rendering it virtually impossible to upgrade with confidence. They then added slightly non-standard USB ports (can damage equipment and anyone wishing to use USB devices other than the mouse+keyboard supplied should buy a new USB card). Added prohibitively expensive proprietory RAM, (shared memory) and topped this off with a seriously wierd boot sequence that makes installing anything other than Microsoft NT/2000 extremely difficult.

Hmm, can't see how that failed, can you? If you're going to build a PC, build a PC! Don't screw people over with some half-hearted attempt to break into an established market by depending upon your name alone.

Re:SGI

[abdulla]

what happened to the reality engine?

Re:SGI

[foobar104]

what happened to the reality engine?

Reality Engine and Reality Engine 2 were predecessors to InfiniteReality. Around '96 there was a stripped down version of InfiniteReality, called, simply, Reality, that kind of took the place of RE2 in the product line, but that was only available in the Onyx2 deskside, so not too many were sold compared to IR systems.

Re:SGI

[castlan]

I would have say that "too good" was a poor choice of words, but the sentiment was correct. Perhaps "ahead of their time" is more accurate.
Sgi tends to be ahead of their time, which can be a good thing in their standard market of high end machines, but disasterous in the commodity world of ia32 PCs.

That they decided to "mess with the voltages for no apparent reason" is understandable unless you are comming from the commodity PC world. Standard x86 processors were all depended on 5V connections. Later, to aid in effeciency and higher clock speeds, they were reduced to 3.3V. You may remember the trouble with "Overdrive" enabled motherboards that were intended to be Pentium compatible before the Pentium part was available. By the time Pentiums were common, they used 3.3V, and so did their motherboards. Overdrive MBs needed to buy specific Overdrive CPUs that ran at 5V.

Well, as part of the PCI2.1 spec, there can be "2x" 66MHz connections, as well as 64 bit as opposed to the "standard" 32 bit connections. PCI boards need to be keyed to fit in the properly keyed PCI slots... there can be Universal cards that work at either 5V or 3.3V connections. Unfortunately for the 320 and 540, commodity low PCI cards didn't yet have enough reason to put out 3.3v wide or double speed compliant PCI cards. From SGI's end of the spectrum, the more performant cards were already standard, as they were necessary for e.g. gigabit ethernet, FDDI and other technologies in wide use by SGI consumers.

I've never heard anything like what you describe with USB... but I can't discount it outright because at the time I wasn't aware of very many USB consumer devices available on the market yet. But as for "firewire" ieee standard, SGI was again ahead of their time. They wanted the cutting edge connector on their hardware, but unfortunately the machine shipped before the standard was formalized, so there were inoperative ports on the visual workstations. If you needed those ports for digital video, then they would have shipped you the (high performance) pci cards for free.

As for the proprietary RAM, it was a shame that it was so expensive. But, it was sweet, and still nothing to sneeze at to have a system with 2 gigs of RAM. And though most pc lusers (like myself) still don't need such high performance ECC ram, it was a UMA system, meaning you could tell NT that you would like to allocate a chunk of it to display hardware. To date I'm not aware of NVidia shipping anything capable of 512 Megs of video ram. Having the Graphics hardware as tightly integrated into the system meant that it was capable of some impressive throughput, much like the O2. Unfortunately, tying yourself that thouroughly into your prediction of the future can be problematic, especially in the commodity technology arena when the main competetor is comprised of many of your own ex-engineers. No amount of RAM will make up for the lack of Transform and Lighting hardware for real time rendering, and they should have put more of their Reality Engine tech into the 320 and 540 Visual workstation. That would have made their much more profitable O2 Visual workstation obsolete, and so they crippled the x86 Visual workstation line. Too bad they didn't integrate (at least one) AGP slot, which at 1x didn't have to be much more difficult than a standard 2x PCI slot.

They gave up on it with their later line of 230 Visual Workstations, which cooperated with the commodity vendors NVidia by using commodiry motherboards.

But one thing that they got faulted for, more than any other, should have generated MUCH praise. That "seriously weird boot sequence" is something I'm dying for today, as It would make booting Linux much better unified across different platforms. SGI's GUI PROM bootloader is infinitely superior to the common pc's archaic and proprietary BIOS. As you may recall, the BIOS was IBM proprietary. While Compaq was able to reverse engineer, it is still the same crufty inflexible system that we started out with, virtually unchanged from 1980. Not because it was so good, but because it was so difficult to hack around and still be backwards compatible with the "IBM PC". Consider such nonsense as IRQs and CHS. IRQs got hacked up to 15, still not good enough, so there are elaborate IRQ sharing schemes in place... lets hope you don't need more expansion then that will allow. As for CHS, nobody needs more than 500 MB of disk, right? oh, well just invent an elaborate translation scheme where each subsystem thinks that any given disk block is located in a different place... that will give 2 Gigs. Oh, that can be expanded too, just as long as you don't need to boot from it.

Lilo is far from the ideal Linux booter. Grub is much more flexible, but it's no OpenFirmware. Both Apple and Sun have this far superior facility for bootstrapping their system. SGIs elegant PROM made LILO apparent as the crufty hack it was; you could use your mouse to navigate, or you could use a remote console via serial port, you specify where the Linux Kernel was located, or NT would specify it for you during the install. No other bootloader, not even GRUB, can boot both NT and Linux.

Yes, SGI screwed up with locking in the graphics hardware, which was summarily leapfrogged by their own T&L tech embodied in NVidia. They overestimated PCI card makers and jumped the gun connectivity wise, be it PCI2.1, LVD SCSI, openLVI or "firewire", the opportunity to free us from our cursed "established market" standard PC BIOS should have been a breath of fresh air, and was hardly an attempt to screw us over. It is a loss I mourn at least once month as I wait, still hoping that GRUB, or openBIOS, or something better comes along with which to boot my system.

Maybe I should just get more money and buy a Mac. Or even more money for a Sun. Or I could hit the lottery and buy a post-Octane 2 Unix workstation. Guess I'll just suck it up with El-torito, GRUB, and LBA addressing.

Re:SGI

[Yunzil]

That's six year old technology, baby. And the rest of the world is just now starting to catch up.

That's a nice theory, but it's wrong. SGI hasn't been able to hold a candle to high-end PC graphics boards for probably 3 years, and they [used to] cost ~10x as much. I know because we used to use SGIs exclusively at work, now we use Linux-based PCs.

Re:SGI

[foobar104]

SGI hasn't been able to hold a candle to high-end PC graphics boards for probably 3 years, and they [used to] cost ~10x as much. I know because we used to use SGIs exclusively at work, now we use Linux-based PCs.

What, exactly, do you do? If you have replaced your SGI systems with PCs, good for you, but that probably means the thing you're doing isn't terribly difficult.

Give me a nine-channel system, each channel 4000x3000 RGBA double-buffered. Oh, and I use shared memory arenas for my IPC, so it has to be a single system image. I'll need, let's see, two procs each for each channel (cull/draw), plus a proc for the router and a proc for the database pager. Plus a proc for the app, and one for the serial device handlers.

Shouldn't be a problem, right? PCs can do that. I just need a 22-processor Athlon motherboard with 9 Geforce 3 cards. 'Scuse me while I dash off to Fry's. Back in a flash.

page lengthening post!

[Klerck]

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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First children of bodom post

[DivineOb]

Downfall
Find this song on Sheet music, CD

The night of timeless fire is drawing near
I flee... Throughout the years of throe
Watching through a mirror, as I fall apart
I see a wreck, I'm burning

I see angels burning, falling down in ruins
Looking down I see me, I'm my own enemy

Watching myself decaying, falling from high spirits
I flee... Throughout the ruins of me
Longing for finding my way out
Leaving myself, there's nothing left for me
The ruins are about to crumble down.

The flame is dying by shivery winds of jet black skies
It reflects hatred in my eyes

I see angels burning, falling down in ruins
Looking down I see my ashes scattered around my grave

Angels whispering fire, no longer I'm alive
Settled down I'm done with the trip to my kingdom come

page lengthening post!

[Gay Linux Conspiracy]

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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SGI was killed by it's greedy salesmen

[K8Fan]

I used to demo software for an SGI dealer, and learned to loath the company. The special hard drive mounting bracket for an Indy would cost more than the drive. The knob box cost $1500. Nutty prices.

But the thing that sealed their doom was when they didn't take the opportunity offered by Nintendo purchasing a huge number of R4000 chips. They could have taken the volumes offered by this to start selling MIPS chips to PC video card makers. They could have owned the entire video card market, and not suffered the brain drain that found all their best people working for competitors. Instead, their fat-cat sales force ruled against that move. They liked selling expensive workstations and servers to big clients for big bucks.

If they had played this card correctly, Nvidia would have never happened. Who wouldn't have wanted a "Silicon Graphics" game card? Instead, they were stupid greedy and they'll die. And they'll deserve to die.

Re:SGI was killed by it's greedy salesmen

[foobar104]

But the thing that sealed their doom was when they didn't take the opportunity offered by Nintendo purchasing a huge number of R4000 chips.

The Nintendo 64 was built around the MIPS R4300i embedded processor. It had limited R4000 instruction-set compatibility and a 64-bit execution unit, but it wasn't really related to the chips SGI used at the time at all.

So while selling tons more embedded processors would have been a nice bonus for SGI's MIPS subsidiary, it wouldn't have affected their core business on bit.

Re:SGI was killed by it's greedy salesmen

[Retarded_One]

MICROSOFT has a very different story from yours. They talk about the gaping gaps in coverage with sgi's salesforce.

Re:SGI was killed by it's greedy salesmen

[hetz]

I really don't know if that wouldn't affect their financial bottom line - look at the upcoming ATI Q4 profits - they made nice amount of money with their contract with Nintendo about the graphics chip.

Case in point - SGI got some great hardware, totally impressive machine, and I haven't heard many flames about Irix. Yet it reminds me what was written by a british computer magazine about the Amiga 1000 - Dream machine - Nightmare price - I guess it's the same for SGI.

So - you could think "ahh, market conditions now are not the best, they'll lower their prices on their workstations/servers" - well, you are more then welcome to look at the prices of their Visual Workstation machine's prices - FAR and ABOVE any competition! who would be nuts to buy at those prices?!?!?

Re:SGI was killed by it's greedy salesmen

[Anonymous Coward]

Please refrain from using the word "gaping" in your future posts. It's a positively disgusting word and leads only to the posting of these links.

Thank you.

Re:SGI was killed by it's greedy salesmen

[Howie]

Huh? The MIPS R4000 is a CPU, not a graphics processor. The whole point of SGIs workstations is that all the graphics work is offloaded into specialised hardware (not so revolutionary now, but pretty nifty when they first started doing it). That and some really clever memory and I/O architecture in the higher-end (Octane and up) systems.

Re:SGI was killed by it's greedy salesmen

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and I really dig spending $3k on a 2X SCSI CDrom drive, when PCs are shipping with 4X IDE drives for $150 OEM. Totally amazing. I totally agree on your point. Sad, really.

Re:SGI was killed by it's greedy salesmen

[PotatoHead]

Get a Plextor CD-Writer. Works as good as an 'SGI' CD-ROM and can write CD's a well. On the external model there is a block size switch on the back. Flip that and you are set for using the drive even to load the OS from Prom. Cheaper too.

Re:SGI was killed by it's greedy salesmen

[K8Fan]

The folks complaining that the specific chip used in the Nintendo wasn't a graphics chip are missing the point. It didn't matter if the 4600i would have any application to comsumer graphics cards. What mattered is that it caused MIPS to build a much larger fab. And, most importantly, it should have shown the management at SGI that there was a massive consumer market that wanted SGI chips. They had a demand and an opportunity and ignored them both.

Market woes

[Waffle Iron]

Well, its going to be hard to sell pure number crunching at high prices when you can get a 1GHz PC at Best Buy for $599. (Imagine a you-know-what of those.) It's kind of like selling $18 CDs after Napster.

Anyway, I hope they stay in business. Their web site is the easiest place to remember when you need to look up something in the STL Programmer's Reference.

Re:Market woes

[MrDelSarto]

SGI equipment is not and never was in the same ballpark as a $AU1200 PC. A Beowulf cluster of 1024 PC's is not the same as an Origin 3000 of 1024 processors. Read about ccNUMA.

In terms of desktop processing, the I/O bandwidth of an O2/Ocatane can not be compared to a PC. In essence, that's where they differ from a PC with a GeForce. That's not to mention the video/audio hardware that comes built in that is well integrated into IRIX and for the most part well documented.

In general, with SGI you get what you pay for.

SGI is a great company (I've worked there) that's built on a culture of doing cool things with technology. They just seem to have made a lot of bad decisions. They seem to be returning to their core business now, i hope it works -- how many quaters have then been going to turn a profit next quater now?

Re:Market woes

[Queer Boy]

I used to have an Indigo 2, not that I had any need for an Indigo 2, I just had the opportunity to get one in a swap for a PowerCC Mac Clone. It had Elan graphics which is great for medeling, but you even threaten it with a texture and it goes into convulsive fits. The thing about sgi is that the machines have the bandwidth . They are designed to move large amounts of graphics data. Well, really just any data that is bandwidth intensive. Plus the hardware just looks so damn cool.

Re:Market woes

[Rogain]

uhhh, 18 dollar CD sellers are doing just fine.

Re:Market woes

[Anonymous Coward]

Are they? I have seen them complaining in the press about dropping sales for the last 6 months.

Re:Market woes

[Waffle Iron]

uhhh, 18 dollar CD sellers are doing just fine.

Or maybe not, according to this article: CD prices set to take a plunge

This is good news to here...

[jschmerge]

It's good to here some good news come from SGI... I've been a fan of pretty much everything that they've ever done. I find Irix to have the sweetest desktop out there of any Unixes I've ever used (Gnome and KDE pundits may repectfully disagree). Hell, even the cases they put their machines in are works of art.

Anyway, although I am rather happy to hear that they will be recieving a financial shot in the arm from the new wave of government spending, I am a little worried, given the track record for stability of Irix, that these machines will be running fighter jets (can anyone say kernel panic at 30,000 feet)?

Re:This is good news to here...

[skotte]

amen to the case bit, dood. SGI was making kick ass cases ages before apple thought of it. The octane is one bad lookin mutha :)
and actually, SGI was really pioneering in the fFireld of case design. many of the interesting new design elements of most comapnies today are directly ripped fFrom what SGI has been doing fFor years. compaq is the worst thief in this area, with large removable sections of the CPU, bent wavy fFront panel designs (which compaq totally fFucked up) hell, they were even making fFlat panels look good before anyone else.

because looking cool matters.

And they should die like this...

[DivineOb]

Oxidised Razor Masticator
Find this song on Sheet music, CD

Chomping and splicing, your gums sliced to shreds
Tattered bloody ribbons, incisored skin is shred
Scraping on sore teeth, cracking and chipping
Shredding and mincing raw nerve endings

Salivating - sanguis, phlegm, froth and foam
Masticating - your mandible stripped to the bone

Mangling your tongue, bloody torn and dripping
The swollen savage muscle frayed and blistering
Your vocal chords severed, your lips are mutilated
Masticating carved palate as your mouth is grated

Only raw gargles croak from your throat
A trickling death-rasp as you choke
A silly grin carved from ear to ear
Spurting mucus and tongue as your wind-pipe tears

Gaping and sore
The rusty razors bore
Skin hangs and seeps
Peptic ulcers bleed

Your mouth is a sea of cartilage, rabid saliva bleeds
Swallowing shredded tongue and pulverized, crunching teeth
Respirating a bolus of rusty razor blades
Asphyxiating bloody garotte, tearing your jugular vein

Bad news on the horizon

[dfeldman]

One of my buddies is a manager at SGI and he's not quite as optimistic as the P.R. folks are. He said that there were several reasons for their business slowdown, and none of them were easy to solve:

• Consumer-grade video hardware has quickly outpaced SGI's best offerings. A GeForce3 has the same processing power as their best offerings from just two years ago, and doesn't cost as much as a new car.
• Management issues cripple the company. The lack of profits through the year 2000 weren't a result of low demand; they were a result of running a bloated, disorganized company that didn't know what their resources were or how to use them.
• Morale is at an all-time low. Coupled with the fact that the market for high end hardware is very weak headed into 2002, they are going to have at least a few more rough quarters.
• Expenses are killing them. They spend millions of dollars a year supporting Windows NT clients, open source efforts, and R&D into doomed technologies like the Itanium. Since few of these things will ever pay off in our lifetime, the money is as good as wasted.

The market has spoken, and the message is clear: proprietary technologies are on the way out. Even Sun, the mother of all vendor lock-in schemes, has started to use standard PC components in building their machines. SGI can still sell to their niche market, but they need to severely narrow their focus and cut a good deal of fat before they can be profitable again.

df

Re:Bad news on the horizon

[guacamole]

About the only Sun system that is full of PC parts are the low-end Blade100 and Netra X1 ystems (well, and Ultra5/10 but those are on the way out). Sun's core business is still based on selling proprietary systems (granted, they don't mind using industry standard technologies like PCI, etc where it makes sense).

Re:Bad news on the horizon

[davecb]

dfeldman wrote:
They spend millions of dollars a year supporting Windows NT clients, open source efforts, and R&D into doomed technologies... Since few of these things will ever pay off in our lifetime, the money is as good as wasted. The money they spent supporting Samba, on the other hand, made them a very credible fileserver for Windows clients. This sold and sells servers.

Re:Bad news on the horizon

[be-fan]

Consumer-grade video hardware has quickly outpaced SGI's best offerings. A GeForce3 has the same processing power as their best offerings from just two years ago, and doesn't cost as much as a new car.
>>>>>>>>>>
Yea, isn't it ironic that SGI now uses NVIDIA hardware in their low-end workstations?

Re:Bad news on the horizon

[DeadMonkey]

Yeah, really ironic considering the deal between SGI and NVIDIA.

http://www.sgi.com/newsroom/press_releases/1999/au gust/nvidia.html

It's not like they're using vanilla GeForce cards or anything.... still high-end stuff.

Re:Bad news on the horizon

[Anonymous Coward]

I pity the Fo who bought an SGI as a fileserver. (Seriously, if your normal 'doze infrastructure isn't holding up, buy a cluster from Novell, not a big Unix box.)

Re:Bad news on the horizon

[be-fan]

Actually, according to SGI's own docs The VPro cards are just rebranded Quadros, which, in fact, *ARE* vanilla GeForce cards with some special features enabled in the hardware (like line-AA). All it takes is a change to one resistor to turn a "vanilla" GeForce into an SGI "VPro"

SGI still around?

[BWJones]

Other than its ability to run on cheap (price and often quality) hardware, I still don't understand SGI's movement to Linux. I guess that I am showing my ignorance here, but it seems to me that Apple and SGI are in similar situations right now in some respects. Both companies historically have relied on income from the hardware side of things while making a closed OS/hardware system that for each of their respective markets is very effective. The difference between Apple and SGI however is that SGI already has a UNIX OS with a GUI (however difficult it is to manage but VERY extensible and powerful), and Apple is developing UNIX with a GUI (easier to manage, more powerful in some respects, etc etc etc...). Both companies need major transitions to survive, but why Linux/Intel? IRIX is already mature, stable, fast, with great graphics capabilities and IO capabilities, so I ask again, why move to Linux and Intel?

Both companies obviously want to benefit from the open source paradigm while still remaining in business with proprietary OS's. (I am guessing here for SGI as I assume that they will make their OS on a proprietary linux model) The approach Apple is taking certainly makes sense to me by developing a UNIX OS that includes the opensource Darwin, but I am totally clueless as to what SGI is doing here. What makes Linux more attractive than simply continuing to develop IRIX and putting more effort into improving, simplifying some features, and pushing development for IRIX on perhaps less expensive hardware? (among other changes to their business model) Again it seems to me that SGI is making another crucial mistake here as the developers that have tapered off work for IRIX have not for the most part started developing for Linux (although I know of a few examples), primarily they have lost ground to Wintel. (thus
their misguided attempt at Wintel/SGI boxes I guess)

In short it appears that they are trying to make Linux/Intel into what they already have in IRIX/MIPS, only with cheaper hardware which seems awfully dangerous to me for both end users and the company.

I believe that by 2005 SGI will no longer be in the low to mid-range workstation market. This market will belong to perhaps Linux/Intel or OSX/PowerPC. Right now for what my maintenance contracts cost me for a single SGI Octane, I can purchase a new G4 WITH a 22in Cinema display YEARLY! This is not even talking about the $40k initial acquisition costs.

SGI will survive in the server market and high end visualization market if they are not acquired by someone else. After all SGI's market cap is only around 585 million last time I checked.

Re:SGI still around?

[foobar104]

I believe that by 2005 SGI will no longer be in the low to mid-range workstation market.

I'm not sure how you define that market, but for my money SGI isn't in it now.

SGI's workstation products include O2+ (a special purpose machine), Octane2 (definitely high end), and Onyx 3000 (the highest of the high). There's going to be a new product coming early next year-- this is not a secret, although the details and case color are-- that sits below Octane2 on the price graph, but it isn't going to be a low- or mid-range desktop computer either.

Re:SGI still around?

[skotte]

I still don't understand SGI's movement to Linux

hey, here's a couple reasons fFor a company to move to linux:

1) sales fForce: "it looks good! it costs nothing to buy, and you only make money on selling it!"

2) marketting: "it's The Next Big Thing, and we wouldnt want to miss out on it, now would we?"

3) management: "surveys say more people know what linux is, than irix. let's go with the established winner!"

Re:SGI still around?

[Sinical]

My understanding is that it will be part of their move away from MIPS to IA-64 (Itanium):
I believe that IRIX is so tied up in the MIPS architecture that a stable/usable port
would be impossible (especially for things like sprocs -- their proprietary
threading-type model).

Also, why not move to Linux if you're no longer using a processor like MIPS?
You'll get all the development stuff for free, you will be buzzword-compliant,
and the additions you'll want to add (like massive pre-emptiblity -- I believe
there is already a Linux patch for this) could get major testing in the real world.
Hell, your patches might even get written for you.

Besides, SGI is not in the software business: they build high-end computing boxes
where you need a number of at least reasonable powerful CPUs coordinating their
tasks tightly (at least that's what we use our various 8-way boxes for: simulations
with a 1kHZ frame rate).

Re:SGI still around?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I still don't understand SGI's movement to Linux.

Famous urban myth #1. SGI is not moving to Linux.
They're adding IA64/Linux to their MIPS/IRIX
lineup, but the nature of the beasts aren't
the same (I doubt we'll have a McKinley 4P box
with the O300 form factor soon ;) ) even though
SGI is fanatical about reusing components in
both product lines.

to the trolls

[rebug]

this is totally ot, so mod down as appropriate. -1 would be ideal, since this article has already been ruined.

I can't imagine anything more losing than sitting and waiting for new slashdot news you can ruin. Some of your posts are undeniably funny, though.

What aren't funny are your posts that fuck up the page. Page lengthening. How amusing. I'm very impressed that you can get past the lameness filter, and I'm sure you feel you've accomplished something. Go you.

These posts leave me no choice but to browse at 0. There are some posts that get modded down unfairly, and I end up missing them. Thanks bunches.

This may be among the more pointless bitches of all time, I know, but I felt like bitching.

Re:to the trolls

[DivineOb]

I agree with you

Rapture
Find this song on Sheet music, CD

Confront me unholy ones
Bastard saints scorn of the earth
I summon thee now poison me
Death under will burn in my soul

Exalt me enemies of the lamb
Intrude - We are of one
Under will, I walk the path of sin
With your spells I die again

Raise me from mortal
My will be your will
My words speak your words
Your pains raise me to bliss

What of this anger now
Received to lance your enemy
I feel the energy
The poison moves in me
I spill blood

Scorn of the earth, I witness
In rapture I'm born again
Scorn of the light, I bear scorn
In rapture I'm reborn

Re:to the trolls

[Retarded_One]

The page-lengthening posts are courtesy of Klerck.

He is our resident troll-performance artist. If you do not like it, please fuck off and go read the zdnet forums. Even
Yahoo! has an article about him, you phillistine.

Re:to the trolls

[Anonymous Coward]

What's a Philistine?

Re:to the trolls

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like a real dirty person.

I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[jcr]

SGI is caught in the classic problem that killed DEC, and is killing Tandem, Stratus, DG, and many others: the performance of the lowend is improving so quickly that we can do things on $1K machines that used to require $1M machines.

I have a friend who had an idea that could have saved them. When he was at SGI, he pointed out that machines that were optimized for graphics had to have great I/O performance, which would also make them great performers in another I/O intensive task: running RDMS engines like Oracle and Sybase. SGI management wasn't interested.

So, SGI employees and stockholders lose out, and the rest of us gain another lesson in the dangers of rigid thinking.

-jcr

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[foobar104]

SGI is caught in the classic problem that killed DEC, and is killing Tandem, Stratus, DG, and many others: the performance of the lowend is improving so quickly that we can do things on $1K machines that used to require $1M machines.

In a way, you're right. Every day I deal with the fact that SGI computers aren't cost-effective for general purpose tasks like file serving or database applications.

But at the same time, you've pointed out the reason why SGI is trying to do what they're trying to do. Some tasks that could previously only be done on SGI workstations can now be done on cheap(er) PC-type computers. I'm thinking of 3D modeling and image exploitation specifically, but there are lots of other examples, too.

So okay, SGI needs to get out of the desktop workstation business except where they can justify it. So they're doing that.

But there are some tasks that you've never been able to do cost-effectively on a PC-type system. Like high-definition or film compositing and editing. Sure, you can do film-resolution work with After Effects or Final Cut Pro, but it'd be so slow that you couldn't turn a profit doing it. So instead you buy a half-million-dollar Onyx and go to sleep every night on a big pile of money.

Now, for the first time, there's a desktop workstation that's capable of doing most of what an Onyx can do: Octane2. So now SGI is going to a lot of those customers that have Onyxes and asking them if they'd like to buy three or four smaller systems that do 80% of what the Onyx can do to augment their existing stuff. And many of them are saying yes, because (and this is the key) they already know they can be profitable doing it.

Of course, when SGI pushes down too far into the market space, they tend to get spanked a little. If you're doing standard-definition video editing, or god forbid compressed, you can do most of what you need with an Avid or Final Cut Pro on a G4. So SGI loses a lot there.

The trick: find the sweet spot, where the market is broad enough that you have a lot of customers to call on but not so broad that you get beat on price-performance, and sit there.

At the other end of the spectrum, there's the really high end. The Grand Challenge type stuff, like the project that motivated ASCI Blue Mountain at Los Alamos. If you're going to try to simulate a nuclear explosion instead of just setting one off and watching the pretty colors, you're going to need a computer that is several hundred times bigger than anything that had ever been built before. So there's an opportunity there to sell some of your big iron to the government, and (more importantly) to fund some R&D that will then trickle down to your commercial products so you can get back to beating the competition on features instead of fighting over price.

So yeah, in a way you're right. The low end keeps getting better. But as it does, we keep thinking of things to do-- both commercially and in the sciences-- that the low end can't handle. It's like swimming in the ocean. The waves are moving under you, and if you just sit still you're going to get dunked. But if you swim in the right direction at the right speed you can stay at the crest of the wave. That's the trick: to stay on the crest of the technology wave.

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[MrDelSarto]

Your friend was right, but SGI is in this market and have been pushing it for a long time. Origin's are a good solution for huge databases and data warehousing, and are used as such. They are all about I/O and processing performance -- only one application is to put graphics head(s) on them and create visualisations. Oracle and Sybase are available for IRIX and work fine, and are used.

SGI can be criticised for much, but not for a lack of database/warehousing solutions.

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[Anonymous Coward]

SGI have and continue to put a huge effort
into I/O performance including XFS and CXFS
(Clustered XFS) and they get additional benefits
from the ccNUMA architecture as well.

A few years ago they had a demo at trade shows
showing a live backup of a 1TB database in one
hour to tape.

The CEO is always talking about managing and
processing big data.

So I think you need to have another talk to
your friend?

On your other point, the parallels to DG are
scary.

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[jcr]

Your friend was right, but SGI is in this market and have been pushing it for a long time.

The incident I mentioned took place about six years ago.

-jcr

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[Yes]

Agreed. It was easy to sell visual UNIX workstations when the PCs could not do hardware accelerated 3D at all. The low end visual workstations has been taken by cheapo PCs. This shift has basically created a totally new market in the industry (that is where I'm).

Well, low end sucked anyway and SGI is consentrating on the highest of high end. Unfortunately, the high end is probably not growing that fast. Yes, there will never be enough computing power. To do what? Most engineers and researchers I know are happy with PCs. What are you going to do with $1M - $10M system? Simulate the universe or something similar? Good, if you are happy with only a handful of customers.

Maybe SGI should start targetting rich people and entertainment markets (e.g. LustReality).

I think Sun's workstations will also be in trouble. Just check their workstation prices (Blade 1000). Ridiculous. You can get a 900Mhz Blade 1000 at $10,995. Adding another processor to your configuration will cost you $9,995. Adding another 36-GB 10000 RPM FC-AL hard disk will cost you, $2,300. Fuck, you get more if you just buy two machines and stick them together.

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[V.P.]

Uhm, hello? There is no Tandem to kill. Tandem has been acquired by Compaq more than four years ago Of course Compaq managed to f@&k this up just as they did with Digital shortly afterwards.

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[hetz]

Oh yes, that reminds me...

When SGI bought Cray super computers corp., they sold some parts, one of the parts was sold to Sun microsystems, and Sun renamed it to Sun E10000...

I'm sure that few people know about Sun E10K, and I'm sure Sun sold tons of these machines at huge prices and got a very nice profit from them...

Who the hell made this stupid decision to sell it to Sun???

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[Tet]

the classic problem that killed DEC, and is killing Tandem, Stratus, DG, and many others: the performance of the lowend is improving so quickly that we can do things on $1K machines that used to require $1M machines.

Actually, that's not true. Commodity PC hardware can't do what a DG NUMA box, or a Tandem or Stratus box could do, either from a technical competence or a performance point of view. But it can do a close enough approximation that most people don't care. No, the PC hardware won't give you five nines reliability. Nor will it allow you to have a single system image across 64 or more CPUs. But most people are prepared to tolerate an occasional reboot, and a loss of performance to save themselves a bucket load of cash. And that's the problem. Why spend big bucks, when you can get 90% of what you want for a couple of grand? Sure, as a techie, I'd love to have a DG AV35000 to play with, but realistically, unless I'm running insane amounts of Oracle, I don't need it. I can get the job done with a high end PC. Not as quickly, sure, but quickly enough to satisfy my business requirements.

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[Anonymous Coward]

Pick which one you want, 5 9's, or 64 way SMP. The large boxes at LANL and elsewhere had MTBFs measured in hours.

As for performance, right now on linear algebra codes you will be hard pressed to beat a P4 with any RISC hardware. Alpha is about the only thing that can do it over a very wide range of benchmarks, and there you are looking at 10% differences in wall clock. On chem and bio codes, the winner is the AMD Athlon in most cases. Single CPU to single CPU, it is 2-3 x the performance of the current SGI offerings, which are within a factor of 2 of all the rest of the RISC pack.

It is very very hard for the RISC crowd (I used to be one of them) to believe it. They have been lapped. Its not gonna get any better.

As noted elsewhere, you can accept reality, or do what SGI did. SGI closed reality.

I have benchmark after benchmark after benchmark, real customer benchmarks that is, on real codes, with real problems, which illustrate what is said above. But you can go on denying it.

Cray denied it for a long time. Look where it got them.

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[Anonymous Coward]

You should ask Oracle and Sybase about their continuing support for IRIX in their latest products. The story is very different than you might be hearing from SGI.

Many molecular biology and other large database applications depend upon Oracle, which is the defacto database of life science. Oracle has quitely told all of the ISVs that have been on IRIX using their tools/databases to pick another platform. My company was told this and we are looking at ABI (anything but IRIX) for our next port.

It was fun while it lasted.

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the hell made this stupid decision to sell it to Sun???

A Crayon named Bo Ewald. Now head of a defunct dot-bomb or something like that. Between this guy and Coleman, they took a great company with awesome products and turned it into a sniveling weeping mere shadow of its former self.

The Cray purchase has got to go down as the stupidist thing that we ever did. We were stealing their marketshare from below. The PowerChallenge was called internally the J90 killer. And it did do that. Then we got insane and bought the company. What the F*CK were we thinking...

I think it is criminal that Bo Ewald was not listed as a liability on the merger sheet. Coleman too.

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[Scareduck]

I have a friend who had an idea that could have saved them. When he was at SGI, he pointed out that machines that were optimized for graphics had to have great I/O performance, which would also make them great performers in another I/O intensive task: running RDMS engines like Oracle and Sybase. SGI management wasn't interested.

I used to work for a company that actually made a product that ran a (badly underutilized) Oracle as part of its core functionality. In fact, the only thing this application was about was I/O performance. (We wrote train control software, so the major tasks were acquiring data and shoving it back out to the controlled devices.) There were several things that basically zilched their prospects in this area:

• Oracle never took Irix all that seriously. Oracle has an internal order in which they build and release their servers; at the top of the pecking order are Windows and SPARC Solaris. Somewhere in the middle/bottom comes Irix. This means you're always behind on releases if you choose to use Irix.
• SGI machines were unreliable compared to most comparable machines. This is from memory, but we lost Indy after Indy due to power supply failures and hard drive overheating problems. We had to buy support, even if it meant going through a third party to do it. The same was true of their Challenge series machines, which were basically Onyxes minus the graphics pipes.
• Because of the small Oracle/Irix installed base, the combination was buggier than others. Again, from memory, but we had far more problems than we did once we moved to (then-) DEC Alpha.

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[green pizza]

I have a friend who had an idea that could have saved them. When he was at SGI, he pointed out that machines that were optimized for graphics had to have great I/O performance, which would also make them great performers in another I/O intensive task: running RDMS engines like Oracle and Sybase. SGI management wasn't interested.

Indeed true and indeed sad. Management ignored databases, stating that their focus was on the "technical and creative professional". Seems they ignored the fact that said pros need to store their data somewhere. Q: Where does PIXAR or ILM store its vast amounts of models, textures, and scenes? (Hint: it's not in a bunch of basic directories on a generic filesystem).

SGI failed to realize that databases are *big*, *everywhere*. Oracle on SGI IRIX is dead, but that's almost ok... Oracle 8 was nothing more than a quick port with zero optimization (other than some basic compiler flags -- hardly "optimized"). Sybase is a different story. Its IRIX version has risen from the ashes and is quite zippy. Current version makes good use of O200/O2K/O300/O3K architecture and future version will be even better.

It's looking up, but ever so slowly.

Re:I just don't see a way for them to do it..

[green pizza]

Oracle on IRIX is dead. Sybase is a totally different story. Sybase is excited about IRIX once again and they've been doing some impressive optimizations. I personally like Sybase better anyway, but it doesn't have the "impress the clients" ring that Oracle does. It's up to the PHB to decide what our next DB machine will be.

Underpants problem

[Anonymous Coward]

My underpants smell of piss.

Why? I don't know. Really.

Troll???

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not a troll. It is legitimate concern over SGI's motives. Somebody mod the parent up please!

Re:Troll???

[DivineOb]

My cock, your ass
My dick, your cash

Re:Troll???

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not a troll. It is legitimate concern over SGI's motives.

what ar3 you talking about? the post expresses dissatisfaction with the capitalist system. it's a troll by definition, and nowadays probably also an act of terrorism.

FASP

[Ralph JewHater Nader]

Shameful first posts. I hereby make the FIRST ANTI-SEMITIC POST!

Re:FASP

[Retarded_One]

You are very dedicated. Kudos.

Paging THE TURD REPORT

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition to having untreated hemorrhoids for over two months now, my stool has been an almost black color with a greenish hue and has the viscous consistency of thick mud. It takes a heavy amount of wiping to remove the feces from my anus, and I sometimes have to return to the bathroom to wipe again after I notice a crusty feeling in my butt crack.

Also, I leave skidmarks on the toilet seat behind my butt crack, and I sometimes have to wipe my ass after I pee, since I let out a greasy fart that leaves a stain inside my butt crack.

Help!

Re:Paging THE TURD REPORT

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not The Turd Report but I believe I can aid you with your problem.

Firstly, if your abnormal defecation has been persisting for 2 months then you should visit your doctor. As well as hemorrhoids you may have lesions or ruptures in your rectum or bowels. It is also possible that you have an undiagnosed parasitic infestation. Intestinal parasites are not uncommon, even in the industrialized world.

Have you been eating lots of fibre? Fibre contained in leafy green vegetables and cereals is essential for healthy feces. The undigestable fibre adds bulk to your feces and also helps give it traction on its journey through your digestive tract.

You should also cut down on any excessive coffee or alcohol consumption that may be upsetting your stomach or interfering with proper digestion.

For proper cleanliness and hygiene, might I suggest wiping with a moist disposable cloth (a J-cloth ripped in half would work fine) after you have gotten most of the feces off of your anus and from your butt crack. This will also ensure that your ass hair gets properly clean and will reduce any stench associated with a dirty ass. If all else fails you should consider showering after defecating. For the skid marks on the toilet seat you should clean the seat afterwards with a bleach based cleaner. Feces contains large amounts of potentially harmful bacteria including the sometimes lethal E. Coli.

I hope you have healthy feces in the near future!

Re:Paging THE TURD REPORT

[Rogain]

Clearly you need to adopt the Spray Method of Anal Cleaning and Health. After every crap and messy fart you must jump into the shower and spray out your grimey crack with one of those nifty showerheads. Keep to this practice and soon you shall enjoy wonderful ass health. Many of these messy farts will simply stop occuring. You will feel better and project a more sophisticated and successful image at work, home and during your leisure hours. Unencumbered by a sticky, itchy, or crusty buttock, your real personality can shine through.

Love to hate SGI...

[thanq]

On September 13th I was looking at SGI's stock at $0.33 a share, and I was thinking about buying some of it.

I thought that the company had good prospects, even though it was failing at customer service, shipping ordered products, selling short and losgin a lot of money on a number of their x86 intel-based workstations.

They had built some amazing supercomputers for the national weather service, providing boxes for render farms for final fantasy, monster inc., and a bunch of other movie prodcutions (sorry, no time to look for links).

It seemed that it was the 'market analysts' and some disrgruntled customers and amazingly a lot of fear of 'restructuring' the company, that brought the stock price so low.

Somehow, I ended up not buying any. Now their stock is at around $2.14 a share.

I will be kicking my ass till I die that I didn't buy those shares.

It definately shows how much hype goes into inflating or deflating the stock prices and might not show the actual company value, performance, or ability to bring money to the stockholders.

I believe that SGI will come out on top after all.

Re:Love to hate SGI...

[jcr]

I will be kicking my ass till I die that I didn't buy those shares.

Not the shares, dude: the $.50 December calls..

-jcr

Re:Love to hate SGI...

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if, you couldn't have made money in the long-run. Even at $2 it is still a penny stock, and your strategy is (as you admit) just based on hype, which is just as likely to cause you to lose as win.

takeover candidate = ibm? Re:SGI still around?

[StandardDeviant]

A takeover of SGI does seem pretty likely at this point. Here's some reasons why I suspect IBM would snap them up:

1. IBM has a much larger market cap and a fairly healthy balance sheet (this gives them the resources)
2. One of IBM's most profitable business sectors (or so a little birdy told me) outside of consulting is big iron and high performance computing, which is right up SGI's alley.
3. IBM has a large product base and customer base that center around Unix already
4. if IBM is serious about a Linux push, SGI is a source of skilled engineers who have also been working on Linux in the enterprise
5. it'd be one less competitor for all those cushy big-gov/big-edu contracts that IBM loves

Just idle speculation on my part. Sun is more of a pure-play Unix vendor, and thus might seem more appropriate as a takeover initiator, but I don't think their financial reserves are high enough to do it. Further, they're more of a "one-os, one-platform" company than IBM and would probably have a harder time assimilating the SGI folks/products.

Jeez, if SGI goes tits up, how many Unix (commercial) vendors will be left? Both HP and Compaq seem to be treating their unix offerings as an afterthought compated to cheap shitty PCs and winprinters. I guess just Solaris and AIX. God save us all from AIX being the only Unix out there...;-)

Re:takeover candidate = ibm? Re:SGI still around?

[hetz]

Go ahead and ask Sun, HP, Compaq, IBM about the server market share and who are their competitors - SGI is listen way down in the bottom...

This sounds just like old Digital - great products (ok, not the Digital PC's that they tried to sell - yuck!) - horrible sales division.

Re:takeover candidate = ibm? Re:SGI still around?

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM has a debt (long term and short term) of around $28 Billion. The have roughly $4 Billion in cash and $25 Billion in outstanding leases.

Their NET cash position is roughly Zero.

Re:takeover candidate = ibm? Re:SGI still around?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony may buy them up. Their gaming systems have been two popular gaming sytems both use MIPS chips.

Re:takeover candidate = ibm? Re:SGI still around?

[Temkin]

Just idle speculation on my part. Sun is more of a pure-play Unix vendor, and thus might seem more appropriate as a takeover initiator, but I don't think their financial reserves are high enough to do it.

Sun still has several billion dollars lying around for just such uses. Given their current market cap, it would be a simple matter of convincing SGI shareholders. But you have to stop and ask, what would Sun aquire from SGI that it doesn't already have, or is able to create from COTS chips in a short period of time? Sun got what it wanted from SGI when it aquired the Cray SPARC assets. There's probably some nifty software, and some nifty graphics code to be had, but for the most part there's nothing at SGI that Sun couldn't create in-house in a short period of time, and without picking up the fiscal hit of absorbing their support contracts, etc...

One of the dirty little secrets regarding SGI & the movie industry... The graphics may be displayed on SGI's and printed to film, but unless things have changed recently, many of the render farms are Sun's.

Temkin

Re:takeover candidate = ibm? Re:SGI still around?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only major graphics house that still uses Suns in their renderfarm is Pixar. Everyone else has dumped them for cheap PCs running Linux, since its so much more cost effective.

The only reason its still cost effective for Pixar to use Suns is that Sun practically gives them to them, for publicity and marketing purposes.

I hope they stay

[Sk3lt]

SGI is a very big business in terms of CGI and I really hope they don't collapse since they were always the one who discovered break-throughs in graphical technology.

WARNER BROS.!!!!!

[Retarded_One]

Dude, WARNER BROS. has announced that they will switch to SGI gear exlusively for their CG stuff!!!

Re:WARNER BROS.!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

>by Retarded_One

Yup. You most certainly are.

Get a clue, numbnuts.

[Retarded_One]

The CG crew over at WARNER BROS. is going on, ad naseaum, about their shiny-looking Linux/SGI setup. Massive machines. Try not to spout so much bullshit in the future.

Even better...

[Retarded_One]

There is an in-depth look at SGI's new role in the war against terrorism over at TIME MAGAZINE

Lack of reliability did them in ...

[morven2]

or at least, their reputation for such.

One place I worked at had SGI webservers/application servers alongside SUN equivalents. The SGIs had approximately an order of magnitude higher failure rate. Granted, this was their low-end systems, but it wasn't encouraging -- and many sites would try low end systems first to get the feel of a company's products.

SGI's Failing Points

[Lethyos]

Yes, I definitely agree that SGI has done some killer things. They revolutionized the graphics industry and demonstrated that computers can be made to do visual effects never dreamed of. Their systems are powerful tools for research. All in all, they've been quite swell.

But, we don't need them anymore. Nor do we want them.

SGI offers big, expensive, proprietary solutions, that like Microsoft, lock you into their product line with little or no hope of escape. Let's discuss the reasons.

1. Lack of extensibility. SGI boxen typically do not scale well, and if they do, much of your hardware has to be replaced to accomplish any scaling. Ever try to upgrade an Indy? And O2!? I certainly understand that in any upgrade, sacrifices of existing hardware must be made, but they are no champions of modularity.

2. Proprietary hardware. SGI hardware, for its consumer price-level equivalents is not all that great. You can spend $16,000 on one or maybe two decent SGI systems, or you can buy 10-15 high-powered PC's and cluster them. You get the advantages of redundancy too. Another problem here is repair work. Nobody but SGI and SGI certified technicians can repair their hardware. Worse still, only SGI and a few licensed vendors manufacture SGI hardware replacements. More money here. And then there is Irix...

3. Proprietary OS and software. Irix is a disgrace. Certainly, it's a great performer, but because it's geared specifically to SGI hardware. Take Linux and optimise it to the same level and write good drivers, and you'd have not just a strong contender, but a superior OS. However, it's just not there and SGI doesn't want it to be. They're too proud of their OS and they want Irix tools to remain Irix-only so SGI software vendors can't take their products to other markets without tough costs. Since everyone does servers these days, SGI doesn't mind having Linux run on Challenge or other volume servers. Besides, everyone who wants Big Iron for www.hugefuckingcompany.com uses Sun anyway.

All in all, what SGI does for huge costs can be done in the PC scene with a fraction of the price. Perhaps not in Linux yet, but certainly in Windows with products from NewTek and ReelMagic for example. With nVidia around pumping out killer graphics hardware, what do we really need SGI for? I guess the only reason I can see is that they produce big solutions (who else will build a C.A.V.E. for you?). Can anyone clue me in on what it is exactly SGI does that we can't do everywhere else these days?

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Anonymous Coward]

> I meta-moderate negative ratings to unfair. Use points on good comments, not trolls who get drown out anyway

You're a meta-moderation terrorist. Not to mention a complete fucking cocksmoking fuckwad. I mean, where the FUCK do you get off meta-moderating negative ratings as unfair? Are you saying things like Klerck's page-lengthening posts should be left at a default posting level of 1 (which it would be, if nobody moderated down).

You are such a cocksmoking motherfucker if I knew where to find you in real life I'd shove a 747 up your ass.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm posting ananymously to avoid trouble however I really do have to respond to this as and SGI employee (Standard legal disclamer I speak for myself not employer etc...)

1. Lack of extensibility.

There is a difference between upgrading and scalability. Scalability is not about adding an extra harddrive it is about adding CPU's and IO. Take the 3800 for example. That goes to 1024 CPUS' running off one kernel. That looks like it scales well to me. Yes you pay but it sure is impressive

2 & 3 Proprietary OS/Hardware. So what? Sun does and get aways with it. So does HP/IBM and every other UNIX manufacture. The hardware is designed for certain function and the SGI does it very well.

Adding preformance to a system is not as easy as you think. Its not about just writing some code and say look how great this is. Look at from the point os Sparc Linux for Sun. The scsi layer get only arouind 1/2 the performace of Solaris. Why? Because solaris is designed to make the most of the hardware

I think you should wait to see what SGI can really do

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[green pizza]

Proprietary OS and software.

It's UNIX. Sure, it's a *flavor* of UNIX, but its genetic makeup is 99% indentical to every other flavor out there. Golly, even the "SGI GUI" is just a modified version of Motif plus HTML and vector icon libraries, all of which are well documented. Over the past 10 years I've ported code (graphical, non-graphical, and device drivers) to and from IRIX with very few problems. And heck, most of the problems had to deal with REACT, SGI's real-time kernel extensions... something that nobody else in the UNIX arena had at the time (they're just now catching up).

SGI hardware isn't cheap, but it's worth every penny to those that need it. The same goes for the support contracts (which are cheap if you consider the short response times and 24/7 electronic monitoring). And for the high-dollar customers, SGI Custom Engineering is actually a bargain if you compare their services to that of other companies. For almost any user, the SGI developer program (www.sgi.com) offers A LOT for the price (nothing, it's free)... compilers, 40% - 70% hardware discounts, support & training discounts, and gobs of co-marketing opportunities. Plus they listen. Aside from two less-than-satasfactory incidents, my group has had no trouble talking to real SGI engineers when their help was needed. SGI management and executives have also always been willing to lend an ear. Of course... listening and *doing* are two totally different things, but I think the company is finally pulling its head out of its rear.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[alen]

Some organizations with money need the power of SGI. And when it's upgrade time they just buy a new system. This isn't for the average script kiddie who likes building his own systems.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Genady]

1. Lack of extensibility.

EXCUSE ME?!?! Have you ever seen an O3000? Where you can add disk, or processor, or memory just by buying the appropriate Brick? The really cool stuff just hasn't tickled down to the desktop level yet, but it sounds like the new Octane will share some of these features.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[(H)elix1]

3. Proprietary OS and software. Irix is a disgrace.

While networking Irix was a beast (way back when), my Indy is what I cut my teeth on for comercial coding and really learned vi (grin). We had RS/6000's running AIX too, so all the C code had to run on both platforms. C is C - if you stay away from hardware specific libraries, and for serious number crunching it was hard to beat what the Irix C compiler cranked out. Yes a Linux box can do Unix , but when you start hitting the _BIG_NUMBER_ stuff, there is a reason (beyond support contracts) why we have Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, and even Irix. Yup, people have used Linux for rendering farms, but that is only one application.

Irix has fallen out of favor with even SGI, however, so its days are numbered. Real or not, that perception feeds the downward spiral. I suspect the same thing is happening with HP-UX. Course SGI did a lot of dumb things, like trying to switch everything over to NT and Intel - botching it, then jumping to Linux - TBD....

SGI had unholy graphics powers in the early 90's - It was just a pleasure to do molecular biology work on them. Compaired to my personal 486dx2/50 w/4M or the Mac in our lab, they set the high end of the delta between "workstation" and "personal" class computers for me.

As for upgrading - you ever see them "upgrade" an AIX box? They gut the thing and drop in all new parts. While you may get to stick some RAM in your sunblade 100, that's about it as you move into systems that the vendor has there but on the line from an uptime service agreement....

But ya, I'll miss them too. Every time I see an old Indy sitting unloved in one of those computer graveyard stores, I have to fight off the urge. From a comercial standpoint, they don't make the list anymore for the stuff I do today.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Anonymous Coward]

For almost any user, the SGI developer program (www.sgi.com) offers A LOT for the price (nothing, it's free)... compilers, 40% - 70% hardware discounts, support & training discounts, and gobs of co-marketing opportunities. Plus they listen.

While I agree that SGI's Developer program is a great thing, and often very helpful, I respectfully disagree also. I'm a CS/EE student, and have been fond of SGI since probably 1990. Wow, they really did some amazing things back in the day. But, as a (high school) student, just try to get ahold of any of their equipment. They (salesmen, I suppose) totally blow off anyone who isn't at a big uni.

When I finally got an opportunity to get some (used) SGI hardware (O2 and Indigo2 Max Impact), they wanted to screw me over for IRIX 6.5 (I had 6.3 and 6.2 respectfully) and whatever MIPSPro CC was current. 600$+ for IRIX, and 2700$ somehting for CC and Fortran was the asking price (the full commercial price, essentially). The salesman said that only UNI students with a special number for the department could get any sort of discount. I eventually sprung for IRIX 6.5, and used GCC (somewhat successfully--having MIPS Pro would have been much, much, MUCH better).

All the while, SUN was shipping their latest OS for the price of shipping, and students could easily come across a great deal for the C/Fortran compilers they offered, amongst other things.

I really like SGI as a company, but so many of their business moves made them bend over an take it in the ass. To totally blow off prospective profits from students (in the long term, admittedly) is idiotic--plain and simple. Sun realizes this. I can put up paying for the equipment to a degree, but to fork over so much for a set of CDs (especially when they cost about half of what the hardware cost)? How much money does it really take to sell a student a set of CDs, that could cause net profits when said student would like to use said hardware xx years down the road?

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Graymalkin]

What the fuck are you talking about? Do you know anything about SGI hardware or software?

1. Saying SGI boxes do not scale completely invalidates any thought you've ever had in your life. Have you ever seen an Onyx/Origin system before? You add a brick and have twice the processing horse power or add 10 PCI (or any periphrial connection you ca nthink of) slots to do anything you want. You don't even have to turn the system off to add anything to it. Origins scale from 2 processor to 128 processor systems at the drop of a fucking hat. Using the Indy and O2 for your examples is just jackassery. Neither of which were designed for easy upgrades. Later revisions of the O2 when the Octane was released were easy as could be to upgrade. You turn the system off and slide out a processor modules and replace it with a new one. Voila.

2. Clusters fucking suck. Jesus get it through your Beowulf worshiping head that clusters are not the answer to all computation problems. LANL might build a bix cluster of PC systems to solve some embarrassingly redundant set of equations big fucking whoop. The big SGI systems are cache coherent and have messaging latencies measured in nanoseconds. A processor on one end of a 512 processor machine can talk to another processor with similar latency that a PC based system can talk to its own RAM. It is trivial to write software that spawns processes onto multiple nodes in a cluster, ccNUMA systems run as if their far flunt components were a single machine.

3. Linux cannot do that. If it COULD do that it would no longer be Linux and certainly would not be portable outside of SGI's hardware. Do you seriously think you can get good performance out of off the shelf software? Hell no. Optimizing software and good drivers doesn't mean anything. You've bitten far too deeply into Linux hype if you think it is even a contender to the grand daddy Unix systems.

Bringing up NewTek and ReelMagic cards is just fucking ridiculous. Wow you can have a hardware video processor that uses a PCI bus. That's rad...until you've seen an Origin in action running more than a dozen pipelines feeding 8 display channels. Try that with a PCI bus and see what happens. Nobody buys SGI for the logo.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Vegeta99]

I jus read your signature. While this may be off-topic, why the fuck would you do that? You help nobody and hurt moderators who DO THEIR JOB.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Anonymous Coward]

You wrote:

1. Saying SGI boxes do not scale completely invalidates any thought you've ever had in your life. Have you ever seen an Onyx/Origin system before? You add a brick and have twice the processing horse power or add 10 PCI (or any periphrial connection you ca nthink of) slots to do anything you want. You don't even have to turn the system off to add anything to it.

This is of course not true. You have to power the system off to let it rebuild the hardware connection map/tree. If you add processors, you need to turn it off it you expect these processors be recognized. At least it was this way 8 months ago. Dont think much has changed. Partitioning never really worked well.

2. Clusters fucking suck. Jesus get it through your Beowulf worshiping head that clusters are not the answer to all computation problems. LANL might build a bix cluster of PC systems to solve some embarrassingly redundant set of equations big fucking whoop. The big SGI systems are cache coherent and have messaging latencies measured in nanoseconds. A processor on one end of a 512 processor machine can talk to another processor with similar latency that a PC based system can talk to its own RAM. It is trivial to write software that spawns processes onto multiple nodes in a cluster, ccNUMA systems run as if their far flunt components were a single machine.

And everything comes at a price. The price for this (not just the monetary) is that you are

• locked into IRIX
• stuck with the MTBF on these systems (ask LANL how much they like this aspect... or NASA)

You wind up paying for a really fast high speed interconnect, and a "bios" that fakes shared memory for you (it is DSM) and your OS. You have an awesome IO network. And a version of UNIX that makes porting painful. With many codes these days being written to operate on a distributed machine, you need to ask what is the cost/benefit of using an origin versus a cluster. In all but one or two cases I have worked on, the cluster came out way ahead in the overall analysis. One bad DIMM can render your massive SMP unusable. Doesnt do so for the cluster. MPI is generally not designed to be highly available anyway.

In the end it all comes down to how wide you need your application to run, how much you are willing to spend to get performance, and your run time needs. Except in the massive memory or IO case, all other cases point towards clusters.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you really don't know SGI hardware.

Here is the 9-1-1:

The Origin 2000 scales to 256 processors with a single system image.

The Origin 3000 scales to 1024 processors with a single system image.

When we upgraded our O2K from 8 CPUs to 16 PCUs we just purchased new modules and added the additional 8 CPUs. We didn't throw anything out.

Same when we upgraded from 16 CPUs to 32 CPUs.

Read it again: we didn't throw anything out. Nothing.

Try that with Sun.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Graymalkin]

Uh..with the ccNUMA structure of Origins a bad DIMM doesn't do much more than you're minus that many megs of memory overall. It is a switched architecture, the failure of one part of the system doesn't mean the whole thing is dead. If a processor module dies you just need to replace it. Have you seen the insides of C-Bricks? Unplug, unhook, slide out, slide in, hook, plug, done. You also make it seem like Irix is somehow a shitty OS on SGI hardware. Wow I want to spend a cool million of a huge Onyx and try to port Linux to it. Right. As for code being written for distributed machines that's just bullshit. Most if not everybody who's buying a system with more than 32 processors is writing their own software to run on it. Saying they are going to buy a MPP machine and partition it to run as a cluster is ridiculous. That is another point you are missing, Onyx and origin systems are NOT SMP systems, they are MPP (massively parallel processor) systems. SMP is where a couple processors populate a bus or have crossbar connects to one another. An individual C-Bick in an Origin might be considered an SMP system but the Origin itself is not. I'd really love to see you build a cluster than can do even half the things an Onyx system can. Renderfarms are just a bunch of retarded nodes that take individual frames and render them which is easily clustered. You don't buy an Onyx just to batch render a bunch of video frames. Your final point just doesn't make sense. When isn't an application based on the amount of memory and IO of a system? Who cares if an Athlon has a higher SPECfp score than a R12k. Clusters can't manipulate enormous datasets in realtime like MPP systems can.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Anonymous Coward]

Try this one again.

In the middle of a month long run on your SMP, a dimm fails. What happens? I can show you the kernel logs for the correctable errors, but the uncorrectable errors crash the machine.

Have I seen the insides? Hell yeah. I used to work at SGI, specifically O2k/O3k.

Is IRIX shitty? Only if you need to port to it, or from it. It is a royal pain in the ass to get most ordinary software to compile/run. Once again, I know, as that was part of what I did for customers while at SGI. The compilers were great. The rest of the OS sucked as far as getting software that worked well on other machines operational.

You raise points about people buying more than 32 P machines to write code. Funny, what are all those people running Fluent, StarCD, Turbomole, etc. doing then? Or NAMD, etc. Short answer is, no, you are generalizing, and you are incorrect.

As for the buy the machine and cluster it bit, this was in the external presentations I gave to customers. You see, customers who use machines know that single failures become more probable the more components you have. The partitioning was designed to allow for failure isolation. Some customers insisted upon it. It never worked, but they wanted it.

I am going to ignore most of the rest of your babble here. You seem to be unaware of what O2k/O3k's are. The architecture, adapted from the Stanford DASH project, is a DISTRIBUTED SHARED MEMORY architecture. IRIX sees what the boot system presents it as a contiguous address space. It builds a nice device/resource tree during boot. Using this tree, the OS maps the tree into the requisite devices and makes the entire tree visible to the OS, and hence to all processors. Memory is mapped across this tree. You may argue that it is not "true SMP" but that is rather irrelevant, the point being that ALL processors have unencumbered access to all memory. Except across partitions. The bus was replaced with a switch and a transport fabric in a standard hypercube architecture. Memory access is non-uniform, but (apart from partitions), the CPUs do not care about this.

On to the points you didnt understand. SGIs are good at two things. 1) really really big memory work. You can theoretically malloc the entire memory (most of it) for a single process, that in a fully configured system, could be in the terabyte size. That is big memory. The problem is as mentioned, the MTBF is a bitch. Ask NASA/LLNL. 2) really large IO. To match the router fabric is an IO fabric. You need more IO? Build a bigger fabric. You can build GB/s disk systems easily (I know, I have built systems from 200 MB/s to 800 MB/s) on these units.

And as I noted, which you overlooked, ignored, whatever... the P4 and Athlon beat the O3k single CPU to single CPU on REAL WORLD APPLICATION CODES, not artificial benchmarks like Spec, or streams, etc. That is, a customer wants to run StarCD. Which is faster, a cluster of N CPUs of P4 or N cpus of O3k? The answer seems to piss you off. Tough.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Graymalkin]

You're ignoring just about everything I said, that being big shared memory systems are better than clustered systems for particular jobs. If you want to serve half a gillion web pages or run a bunch of copies of FLUENT buy the Athlon cluster. Same with a big renderfarm doing batch rendering. If you want a realtime system you need a real computer. You said it yourself, you can malloc just about the entire system's memory for a single process. If say you need to run FLUENT with really big datasets clustering may or may not give you a price performance advantage. Instead of FLUENT I was thinking more along the lines of realtime video where an Onyx is feeding several channels of video each with specific content.

It seems to piss you off that somebody might suggest clustered systems are not the end all be all of computing. You seem to assume I know shit about Origin/Onyx systems when in fact I've read several essays written by SGI's engineers about them. I've also used older Origin systems (pre 3k systems) as well as lots of O2s doing realtime video work. I know the history of the XIO switching and the advent of the ccNUMA stuff. This doesn't make me an engineer but I'm also not talking out of my ass. I've seen plenty of specs for big and fancy Ethernet based Athlon clusters but they are dumb renderfarms. Its fine if you can break down some big problem into a bunch of easily digested packets for a cluster to munch on, in fact that's cool in my book if you can.

The P4 and Athlon beat out most other processors if compared CPU to CPU but after that they fail to scale. Adding N processors to a Ethernet based cluster does not scale well in terms of bandwidth and eventually you end up with diminishing returns and lots of wasted cycles because your cluster just doesn't feed its processors with enough data. It certainly won't process anything near realtime like a big iron system will. You should know this from experience and not ignore the failing of clusters in several cases.

Irix works well on the hardware it was written for. The original post claimed Irix was a POS and Linux could somehow magically be made for fill its role. I contend that Linux cannot and will not be made to fit this role because Irix has become too well adapted to its task. Trying to do the same with Linux would be damn near impossible if your goal was to make a Linux system that looks like a normal Linux system yet is running a 512 processor behemoth. I also didn't say anyone bought 32 processor machines to write code, they buy them to run code. Specifically code they've written. Shit man how many of your customers came to you saying "we've got this Fortran program we need to run in X amount of time, what do you suggest"? If the answer pisses YOU off then tough. Don't get your panties in a bunch because somebody didn't pee their pants when somebody said the word cluster.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Anonymous Coward]

Somehow I dont remember you using the qualifier for particular jobs. You made rather general claims, specifically:

• that clusters suck ass or something to that effect
• that people who buy more than 32 CPUs write their own code all the time,
• other generalizations that are not worth going into here

You also write how you were involved with reading about these systems, and you have used them. Well, golly gee. I worked on building and debugging them, writing codes and optimizing for them, running benchmarks, teaching customers about them, giving talks on them at international shows. You may be reading material I wrote for all you know.

Nobody suggested clusters are the be all of computing. That is, apart from your message here. The fail to scale argument is simply ludicrous. I can show you Amdahl law curves that place the parallel fraction of clusters at the same or better than the curves for the O3k. The problem is when multiple CPUs try hitting a single page. You wind up with the DSM equivalent of the false sharing problem for caches. You have many hits on a single page, which means that page is a hotspot in the code, and the architecture fundamentally limits the bandwidth to that page. This is ONLY a problem for shared memory systems such as DSM found on O2/3k. The MPI implementation for O3k makes use of shared memory. You have many folks trying to write into or read from a particular page, and you get this odd bit of false sharing performance. Basically you see the Amdahl law curve flatten out early, and as you add more processors, the speedup gets worse due to contention.

How to solve it. Page migration. In fact there are many directives that you can tweak, and tools you can use to mitigate some of this pain. The default is not to use these tools automatically.

Understand that shared memory is NOT the best thing since sliced bread, and it doesnt make the programming any better. Hotspots, and poor scalable design are just as bad on a SMP/DSM machine as they are on a cluster. They are actually somewhat worse on the SMP/DSM, as the fundamental assumption is that you can code without going out over the network. So the code is tighter, and the assumed latencies are smaller. When you have contention, this is simply not the case.

Run your favorite parallel code which doesnt scale well with

perfex -a -y -x -mp binary

someday to see what I mean. Look at the external invalidations (other CPUs telling your CPU that it has the cache it needs). There are other tools you can grab the router status information from so you can see the hotspots.

As for real time, who cares. Real time is not a high performance computing market. It is a simulator market, and people who play awesome videogames market. HPC places specific requirements on the system. Single CPU to Single CPU matters tremendously here, as does memory latency, memory bandwidth, and so forth. In this world, no one cares about real time. This is the market I played in, and the one I have been writing about.

IRIX is a royal pain in the ass. I have used it for 12 years. I wish 4Dwm were on Linux. It is the most painful version of Unix next to HPUX/AIX I have used. Getting external software to run properly on it is a lesson in frustration. I know, I did many ports, once again, you may be using my work for all I know.

As for the question of Shit man how many of your customers came to you saying "we've got this Fortran program we need to run in X amount of time, what do you suggest"? is THE VAST MAJORITY OF MY CUSTOMERS DO THAT. The tell me what their needs are, give us the decks and we go from there. And rarely is the answer something like an O3k. When it is, we tell em. When it isnt, we tell em. There are advantages to this.

Re:SGI's Failing Points

[Nailer]

Nobody buys SGI for the logo.

Well, not the new logo anyway...

Just kidding. ;)

military $

[puffinbirdy]

i'm not so impressed that sgi's "recovery" is basically linked to war-based activities. here, outside the usa, many people roll their eyes when they hear about how much the usa spends "in the interest of national security" (read "keeping the rest of the world as fucked as possible") and how few americans benefit from this (for example, those with shares in SGI and the other big companies who benefit from war-making). i don't really care who makes the soft-tech (missile guidance software for example) or the hard-tech (cruise milliles) -- they're the same type of sucker on the ass of real americans. oh wait, i don't see any real americans on my yankee-doodle-ized media, so maybe they don't exist ...

Re:military $

[Rogain]

Quick, somebody call Attorney General John Ashcroft, before we know it this kid could one day crash a hijacked airliner into SGI's head quarters or perhaps shootup his high school!

Re:military $

[tjb]

Dude, that's probably the most clueless thing I've ever read.

First of all lots of real americans do benefit from defense spending. I grew up in a blue-collar, rural area and this area, and many, many more just like it were very dependent on defense spending. Of the 10000 people in my hometown, around 1500 worked at the local foundries, forges, and steel mills. They had good paying union jobs and unemployment hovered around 0 in the area.

However, these companies did 60-90% of their business for the defense industry (US firms just aren't competitive for commercial products, but are necessary for defense products). When the defense build-up of the 80's ended, the area went into a severe depression. *All* of the foundries, forges, mills, and machine shops went bankrupt. Everybody, from the owners to the guys grinding castings, was out of a job. By 1994, unemployment was around 25% and the population had been reduced to less than 4000.

And people wonder why rural areas vote republican? I consider myself and my family pretty average americans that benefitted immensely from military spending. Later, while the coasts were enjoying the boom of the late 90's, rural areas were struggling to keep their unemployment under 15%.

Secondly, this isn't just make-work. There are tangible benfits from having a strong military and the industrial capacity to bolster it in case of, you know, an actual major war. With the US foundry and forge industries completely decimated, it'll be extremely tough if there actually is a need to crank out new planes on a daily basis to replace ones getting shot down.

Also, the reason the rest of the US friendly world has the luxury of not spending money on their militaries is that the US does it for them. Do you really think the Soviets would have felt constrained from taking the rest of Europe if the NATO didn't have massive amounts of US armor to make it a risky propostition? Do you think that the French could hold stop anyone given the current state of their military?

Tim

Re:military $

[deaddrunk]

Also, the reason the rest of the US friendly world has the luxury of not spending money on their militaries is that the US does it for them.

That is such a hilarious fallacy, I've just got to answer it. The US most certainly does not possess the only army, the only navy, the only airforce and the only nuclear weapons in the western world. Perhaps you should try reading a bit more foreign news, not just the bits that allow you to insult the French. As for the Cold War, there was plenty of European equipment stationed in West Germany too. The Soviets would have had a major fight on their hands even had the Americans not been there.

Amen.

[SaDan]

Enough is enough. Stick to fantasizing about Natalie Portman and grits. That was at least original and funny!

I agree, the page lengthening crap is highly annoying. You have succeeded in pissing us all off.

Here's a poster of Natalie and a bowl of grits... Please go play somewhere else for a while.

This must be fantasy

[snake_dad]

I really don't understand how anyone can take this seriously. All these plans must be imaginary, since SGI has cancelled reality. It was a big story here some months ago.

Penis for my vagina

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this a place where I could get a big, thick penis for my vagina?

It's...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hemos: Guide to usage, its vs. it's.

"It's" is a contraction of "it is". I know "'s" implies possession, and it would seem that the way to construct "belonging to it" is to tack "'s" onto the end, but that's simply not the case.

"Its" means "belonging to it". Think of it as the neuter version of the masculine "his" and the feminine "her" (the genitive "her", not the accusative "her"), neither of which has an apostrophe.

Does it make any more intuitive sense now?

No. This place is for hot gay man sex

[Anonymous Coward]

10 Rules of Anal Sex
by Jack Morin

Jack Morin, PhD, a San Francisco sex therapist and researcher, is the author of Anal Pleasure and Health.

Anal Eroticism is surrounded by a powerful taboo. Yet millions of men and women - straight, gay and bisexual - are experimenting with anal sex. The anus, richly endowed with nerve endings and interconnected with the main pelvic muscles, is the closest erogenous neighbor of the genitals and contracts rhythmically during orgasm. Thirty-five years ago, Kinsey stated that the anal region had erotic significance for about half of the population. In a survey of 100,000 Playboy readers, 47 percent of the men and 61 percent of the women admitted to having tried anal intercourse.

Yet the anal taboo inhibits most people from thinking, talking and learning about the sexual use of the anus. Listed here are the ten things most men and women still do not know about anal sex.

1. Anal intercourse is the least practiced form of anal sex.

There are many ways to enjoy the anus erotically. The most common techniques include touching the anal opening while masturbating or stimulating a partner's anus during intercourse or oral sex.

Some people enjoy the sensation of a finger - their own or a lover's - insinuated into their anal opening and gently rotated. Others may prefer the insertion of a dildo or vibrator beyond the anal opening and short anal canal into the larger rectum. Many men, including hetereosexuals, prefer this form of penetration.

Oral-anal lovemaking is popularly known as rimming. The very idea disgusts some people. Others enjoy performing it or allowing themselves to be probed in this special way.

2. Anal stimulation, including intercourse, is not painful if done properly.

The belief that anal stimulation, especially intercourse, has to hurt is a persistent and dangerous myth. Just as pain anywhere in the body indicates that something is wrong, so is the same true of the anal area. With its high concentration of nerve endings, the anus can produce extreme agony when it is mistreated. Yet it can be a source of great pleasure.

When a finger, object or penis is intorduced into the anus, the anal muscles go into spasm, as if fighting off an invasion. Pain will result if the partners do not wait for these muscles to relax. Under sufficient stress they will eventually collapse and the pain subside, unless further damage is done. But, any 'pleasure' afforded from this kind of activity derives mostly from the absence of discomfort.

Maximum anal pleasure requires the elimination of all pain or physical trauma from the anal experience. Self-protection on the part of the passive partner involves being ready to say "no" until he or she is ready to proceed. Readiness is a combination of physical relaxation, usually helped along by plenty of leisurely anal touching, and desire.

Occasionally the anal muscles are relaxes, but the passive partner is still not in the mood. Stimulation should mount only in proportion to the degree of receptivity.

3. Anal sex can be enjoyed even if it has been consistently uncomfortable in the past.

Sufficient desire alone does not necessarily guarantee pleasurable anal sex. Nor is an uncomfortable previous experience always the reason for a lack of interest in or desire for anal sex.

Chronic anal tension is the most common cause of anal discomfort during sex. Hemorrhoids and constipation are usually a sign of this condition. Tension can be relieved by touching the anus and becoming more familiar with it. An ideal time to explore the anal opening is while taking a shower or bath. Deep breathing also affects the anal muscles. Tensing the anus and the letting go in another way of learning to relax it. Anyone who enjoys masturbation might want to experiment with some form of anal stimulation, though he or she should stop if any discomfort occurs.

For many people the turning point in anal sex is when they allow a partner to massage the anus with the understanding that intercourse will not be attempted. Then the recipient of anal caresses can concentrate solely on the pleasure that this erogenous zone is capable of generating.

4. Two muscle rings called sphincters surround the anal opening. Each functions independently.

If you insert a finger about one half-inch into your anus and press your fingertip against the side, you can clearly feel the two sphincter muscles. There is less than a quarter-inch between them. The external sphincter is controlled by the central nervous system - just like the muscles of the hand, for example. You can readily tense and relax this sphincter whenever you want.

The internal sphincter is quite different. This muscle is controlled by the involuntary or autonomic part of the nervous system, which governs such functions as heartbeat and stress response.

The internal sphincter reflects and responds to fear and anxiety during anal sex. It will cause the anus to tense up automatically even if the passive partner is trying to relax. Thus, precautions about safety and comfort are essential here.

Even if a person does feel comfortable during anal sex, he or she may still need to learn voluntary control over his or her internal sphincter in order to relax it at will. Doing so requires regularly inserting a finger, perhaps in the shower each day, and feeling the internal sphincter. The muscle changes spontaneously and in response to behavior. In this instance, simply paying attention is more important than trying to relax. Anyone can gradually learn to control the internal sphincter at will.

5. Anal stimulation provides many kinds of pleasure

The highest concentration of nerve endings is around the anal opening itself. A finger can focus on them especailly effectively. When an object or penis is inserted beyond the anal opening into the rectum, other pleasures are involved. The outer protion of the rectum, like the vagina, has several nerve endings. The inner portion responds mostly to pressure.

Some people enjoy the feelings of pressure and fullness once they understand that these sensations do not presage an impending bowel movement. Rectal pressure is especially important to enthusiasts of "fisting," a form of anal sex in which several fingers or een the entire hand and forearm are inserted into the rectum and sometimes into the lower colon.

In men, the protate - which is just beyond the rectal wall, a few inches in, towards the front of the body - can be a source of pleasure when massaged by a finger, an object, or a penis. Also, the lower end of the penis, or "bulb," is near the anal opening opening. It is stimulated indirectly by most types of anal sex.

Anal pleasure can be psychological as well as physical. The anal taboo adds to the thrill of the forbidden. The most common anti-anal message (it's dirty!) sometimes returns as a source of raunchy, sleazy excitement. Rimming enthusiasts may enjoy the feeling that they are being disgustingly - and delightfully - perverse. Other people regard the anus as a secret, special place. Sharing it with a partner is an act of openness and giving.

6. Anal stimulation can lead to orgasm

A minority of men and women can respond orgasmically to anal sex without direct genital stimulation. Women probably do so through pelvic muscle contractions - and a small minority even though the sheer excitement of being anally penetrated. When men expereience an orgasm from anal stimulation, they tend to focus on the prostate. No doubt they are also responding to indirect stimulation of the penile bulb.

Orgasms from anal stimulation are most likely to occur when the participants become thoroughly absorbed in their sensations and fantasies. An lmost certain way to prevent such an orgasm is to be become determined to have one. Seeking an anal orgasm will create new pressures and disrupt the pleasure.

It must be remembered that most people require direct genital stimulation in order to climax. On the other hand, a few people have orgasms only with anal stimulation.

7. Diet contributes to the enjoyment of anal sex

Regular bowel movements are the major function of the anus and rectum. There must be sufficient fiber in a person's diet to make his or her feces soft, bulky and well formed. This allows a bowel movement to be produced without force or effort. Forced evacuations irritate anal tissues, causing discomfort and adding to muscular tensions. Fresh fruits, vegetables, whole grains or unprocessed bran are important sources of fiber.

8. Different rules of hygiene apply to the vagina and rectum

Since intercourse can be vaginal or rectal, many people assume the the same rules apply for the penetration of the vagina and rectum. Although both are lined with soft tissue and are capable of expanding, they are radically dissimilar.

The rectum is not straight. After the short anal canal which connects the anal opening to the rectum, the rectum tilts toward the front of the body. A few inches in, it curves back - sometimes as much as 90 degrees. Then, after a few more inches, it swoops toward the front of the body once again. A person can learn about the shape of his or her rectum by gently inserting a soft object, trying different angles and body positions and concentrating on how it feels. Make sure the object has a flared base so that if you loose your grip, it won't slip into the rectum and become irretrievable.

The rectum does not produce lubrication like the vagina but only a small amount of mucus. Therefore, rectal penetration always requires a lubricant. Chemical additives should be avoided. Water-based lubricants are latex-compatible.

The main function of the rectum is to act as a passageway for feces. But feces are not normally stored in the rectum except just prior to a bowel movement. Yet small amounts may remain in the rectum, expecially if the feces are not well formed. Anal douching before lovemaking will help some people especailly concerned with cleanliness to relax. For others the idea of dirtiness heightens the joy of the forbidden; for them, douching is anti-erotic.

9. Anal intercourse is not necessarily an act of dominance and submission.

The top-bottom imagery associated with anal intercourse is widespread. No doubt the belief that anal sex has to hurt contributes to this notion. And in fact some people are intensely excited by top-bottom fantasies about anal sex. The thought that they are submitting to such a degrading act is a terrific thrill. However, actual, not fantasized, anal pain can lead to trouble.

For others, the enjoyment of anal sex is inhibited by top-bottom imagery. The idea of surrendering control, and perhaps submitting to humiliation, causes immediate, protective tensing of the anal muscles. These individuals are more likely to relax and enjoy themselves if they can learn to regard anal sex as pleasurable rather than as an expression of power.

10. Anal sex can be perfectly safe, even beneficial.

The taboo against anal eroticism is perpetuated by the almost universal belief among physicians that anal sex is inevitably dangerous. No physical injury from anal stimulation results if both partners refuse to tolerate pain, never use force and avoid the use of drugs.

All the other risks center on sexually transmitted diseases. Each of the common STDs - gonorrhea, syphillis, herpes - can affect the anus. Intestinal parasites, bacteria or tiny bugs are usually passed along when fecal matter finds its way into someone's mouth or vagina, most likely through rimming.

AIDS has complicated the matter. The HIV virus can pass from the semen or blood of an infected person to the bloodstream of a partner through a tiny break in the rectal tissue during anal intercourse.

To avoid this risk, anal intercourse and rimming should not be practiced casually. Those who do enjoy anal intercourse should always use a condom. Rimming should always be accomplished by a latex barrier. Of course, in a monogamous realtionship with two healthy people, the risk of disease transmitted anally is reduced.

Thousands of men and women with chronic anal medical problems have restored their anal health by challenging their negative attitudes. This approach is indespensible for full erotic enjoyment of the anus.

Re:No. This place is for hot gay man sex

[Anonymous Coward]

Tension can be relieved by touching the anus and becoming more familiar with it. An ideal time to explore the anal opening is while taking a shower or bath.

Now that was pretty funny! I wonder though if the goatse guy has taken it a little bit too far...

Want a new car for free?

[Anonymous Coward]

Our car-manufacturing company has developed a new revolutionary business model for making cars.

We give away the cars for free and then we sell services for those cars! If you want to we can clean your car, wax it or you can use some of our other services.

We get cash from a couple of VC's, the rest of them simple don't "get it". If we need more we just call "the suits".

Win a new SGI workstation...

[Anonymous Coward]

This looks pretty cool and I'm thinking it's the workstation that someone else mentioned will be based on the Origin 3000 architecture. Pretty cool. If OpenGL code ports to IRIX easily, then I think I'll be entering. Looks like you need to be present to win, good thing I'm in the SF Bay area!

http://www.sgi.com/developers/

Re:Win a new SGI workstation...

[green pizza]

Reminds me of the "Indizone" 3D games contests SGI had years ago (from 1993 to 1995, I belive... in conjunction with Indy and Indigo2 marketing).

Cool that they're actually recognizing hobbyists and the fun that once accompanied SGI and its products.

Maybe there's still a chance the fun can return...

SGI and marketing, wow factor

[green pizza]

SGI has always had a hard time trying to market itself. They've typically made endless incorrect assumptions and end up preaching to the choir. And yet, the wow factor that made the company and it's little cube logo a legend in the late 1980s is still there, abeit in a slightly different manner.

True, not everyone needs 512 or 1024 CPUs running on a single system under a single kernel. Or 16 graphics pipelines. But there are those that do. Which is why, shortly after the introduction of the Origin 3000 two years ago, an entire convoy of the machines were sent to Fort Meade.

It's almost as though SGI has gotten used to the high end, as though their technology (HW, SW, APIs, SDKs) no longer impress themsleves. Nowhere else, not even E&S, can a person find a platform that can drive up to 128 display channels (16 pipes x 8 channels per pipe) with perfect sync, or even at all. O2K and O3K (and more recently, O300 and Octane2) can drive multiple displays from one or more graphics pipelines. Raw, per-CPU performance isn't anything to write home about, but the thruput and latencies are perfect for generating insane 3D and mixing it with streams of HDTV... or anything. Think of a way-cool use of video and 3D. Now increase the complexity and choose, oh, 4 camera viewpoints. Maybe an additional display for stats and another for an "operators station". Easy with O2K/O3K (aka "Onyx" when gfx are invloved). It can be done and it's proven. They've been doing this sort of thing since you and I were using our "cutting edge" unaccelerated 2D graphics cards running at an "insane" 1024x768.

A pair of old demos SGI likes to show off are sometimes called "from space to your face", in which over 500 GB of sat photo textures are shuffled thru one or more InfiniteReality graphics pipes to provide a realtime "bungie jump" from the moon to earth and back. INSANE. 60fps/60hz locked. 4 huge disk RAIDs composed of dozens of drives grinding away like mad to keep the textures coming. WILD STUFF. All in a day's work.

SGI isn't about buzzwords or about wizbang marketing. It's about providing modular solutions to some of the most challenging problems. They've been there to provide HW and SW to those wishing to work on the cutting edge. In 1988 they were selling 3D workstations. In 1991 folks were doing crazy 3D and video mixing. Today their hardware can be used to drive gobs of displays and to shuffle huge amounts of data. Sure, the desktop PC in 2007 will be able to do the same thing. By then, PCs will be able to drive gobs of high end gfx subsystems, and even a cheap graphics card won't sneeze at several GB of textures loading and unloading every second... but until then, for those that need this TODAY, there's SiliconGraphics.

Let's hope SGI is here tomorrow to show us even more cool things.

Re:SGI and marketing, wow factor

[foobar104]

They've been doing this sort of thing since you and I were using our "cutting edge" unaccelerated 2D graphics cards running at an "insane" 1024x768.

A simulator project I worked on in '98-'99 used a 32-processor Onyx2 with eight pipes (4 RMs each) to drive seven out-the-window channels at 3200x3400@60 plus a heads-up display.

Not a type: 3,200 pixels across, 3,400 pixels down, 60 frames per second. Times seven channels.

I've been doing this for a while, and it made me stop and say, "Holy crap."

Commander Taco's Foot Odor

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are Commander Taco's feet so smelly?

Re:Commander Taco's Foot Odor

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the smell of stale jizz between his toes. From all those snotting sessions, you know.

IRIX reliability

[green pizza]

In all honesty, I have never had a problem with IRIX stability. I have only experienced two kernel panics: one was related to failing hardware, the other to a brand-new graphics subsystem that had a major known bug (and subsequently fixed in the next quarterly OS release... there may already even been a patch for it at the time).

Thinking back on IRIX history, only a few issues come to mind... ballooning RAM usage starting with IRIX 5.X (gee, IRIX swaps to disk on machines with less than 32 MB of RAM) and patch dependancy hell starting with IRIX 4.X but fixed in 1998 with the IRIX 6.5.X quarterly release stream. There have been a few minor regressions over the years and some software issues with brand-new hardware, but almost all have been fixed within a month or two. Anyone deploying mission-critical hardware will fully test their setup before deployment and work closely with the vendor. Heck, I would trust IRIX just as much as any other UNIX flavor... maybe even moreso. As with any other OS, stability issues should be worked out with the vendor, not ignored.

MOD PARENT DOWN

[Anonymous Coward]

Ffuck you, motherFfucker.

Does SGI have a "Marketing Department" ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Knock Knock Knock -- anyone home?

Why isn't SGI trumpeting around telling (and showing!) the world that they are still the king of massive visualization?? For the most part, SGI is no longer a performance leader on the desktop, or for anything running on a single display or on fewer than 4 CPUs. But... SGI is all about the "big data". Nobody else can even come close to their offerings for single large systems or multi-pipe graphics. Nobody else can drive as many displays or such a diverse set of display technologies from one single machine. 2D, 3D, SD video, HD video... several streams of each. One monitor, two monitors... 8 projectors, each with a different point-of-view... all genlocked and in stereo. No problem for SGI. But does the world know about this? No.

SGI has been licked on the desktop, but they are still THE LEADER in display centers. Hell, even the best CAVE is childs play for a modern multipipe SGI. And this is on InfiniteReality class graphics. SGI killed one potential successor to IR several years ago. The stuff that's to come will be even hotter and support even more channels. It's wild, but they act like is a secret.

Re:Does SGI have a "Marketing Department" ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Late in August 1987, I fixed a communications problem between an early SGI workstation, and an IBM PC, and found myself instantly admitted into RPI for grad school. I spent most of my free time the next year playing flight sim on that workstation, and then moved on to grad school elsewhere.

At the next grad school, I admined two 4D/220s, and eventually ended up performing minor repairs when the technician realized he could save himself the 100 mile drive, and the minor abrasions, by sending boards to me rather than installing them himself. I loved those machines, and I delighted in spending countless hours locating hardware and software bugs with my graphics demos. Those machines were magic boxes.

This year, I walked around SGI's display at SIGGRAPH. It was depressing. I would ask the various booth drones technical questions about displays, polgyon rates, and prices, and I mostly got blank stares.

They had a gigantic cool pseudo-VR display of walkthoughs of various geological sites, but even that somehow lacked the energy it should have had.

I think everyone at SGI who knew anything about marketing has long since moved on.

Shiznit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Kill

all

sporks.



Immediatement.

Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

Bali and Odyssey -- Two reasons right there why we no longer use SGI (and really, why we're now in a totally different line of business).

When we bought our first Octanes in 1997, we were excited about the totally new gfx due in "about 18 months". Shucks, the only upgrade we got for YEARS was the simple "e series" speed tweak. By the time Odyssey gfx (VPro) shipped, we had already shifted gears and changed platforms.

Same goes for Onyx2 and its graphics. At the time we bought our first Onyx2, it came with original IR (InfiniteReality) graphics. We were told that IR2 was due soon, and to be followed by something totally groundbreaking (Bali). Hell, Bali never did ship. Bali was never even finished. Here we are at the end of 2001 and the current high end graphics offering is just IR3, another minor speed boost.

SGI can build some damned impressive machines, offering GOBS of thruput--bandwidth from hell. But what can we use it for? Only Bill Gates could afford enough disk subsystems to swamp that much bandwidth, and person can only make use of so many HDTV I/O streams. My company used to work on "photorealistic" 3D simulations for a wide variety of clients. Over the years we had used and abused many different platforms, constantly desiring more performance. Our Onyx2 systems served us well, but the lack of a real graphics upgrade left us scratching for more. We tried E&S, we tried 3DLbas, we tried nVidia. Some speed boosts, many new features, but total kluges when it came to driving more than one display or trying to feed the graphics pipeline. For us, there really was no solution. SGI canceled Bali and the only other alternatives were halfbaked. After a stint with non-realtime (rendered) graphics, we eventually branched off into the world of physics sims.

Cutting edge graphics, where did you go? Please tell me there's more to the 3D world than IR, WildCat II, and GeForce3. Has *nothing* (other than cost) really changed over the past five years? It's almost as though I haven't missed anything in the 28 months I've been away from 3D.

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember visiting a particular customer and promising the power Indigo2 Impact system. Remember Impact graphics? Showed up in the Indigo2 using an R4400/R10k? Well it was supposed to show up in the Power Indigo2 line as well. We had actually sold about 100 to a customer.

Turns out there was demand.

Management killed it before it was produced. Customer nearly sued us. We wound up giving them 100 of the R10k based Indigo2 Impact systems for free in order to stop the legal action.

Hellofa way to make money.

As one engineer at SGI once said "We ship the worlds fastest broken hardware", and sometimes we sold hardware we decided later on not to productize.

Bali, Odyssey, and many other projects were victims of Forest Baskett and the rest of the SGI management "decision" making process, stick your head in the sand and wait for the decision to become irrelevant. Then you have made your decision.

My favorite failed projects were The Beast and Alien. Man, if Baskett hadn't killed those, we would have had some major league whup-ass CPUs, in 99 or 00 at latest. The Beast was a floating point and bandwidth monster. Hellaciously fast. Stuff coming out of HP/IBM/Compaq today isnt as fast as what The Beast was supposed to be. Alien was Beast on steriods. Those were monster-freaking-processors. They would have given an incredible advantage on the performance side.

Instead, SGI management put on the kneepads, and serviced Intel's current abortion, the IA64. Gee, lets scrap this kick-ass, compatible, freaking fast processor for this wet dream of a technology that has failed in the past (think Trace Multiflow).

Even today, with EV7 doing serious damage on the 64 bit front though not for long, and AMD doing damage on the 32 bit front, these guys are sticking with the 4th generation of R10k. From what I have seen, R14, R12, etc are all simply die shrinks and speed bumps to a 5 year old processor. They blew their last load on IA64, and from what I have heard, IA64 is now dead in the engineering groups. All that is left are die shrinks and speed bumps.

A shame, because the Origin architecture is one of the best out there. Crappy CPU, but great underlying architecture. This is why SGI is semi-relevant today. Not for long though.

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

SGI sank $100 million into Bali, it slipped and slipped. The best engineers jumped ship for places like NVIDIA, and in the end someone decided it was impossible to build it in any reasonable timeframe with the people left. Attrition killed Bali.

Sheer unmitigated incompetence hurt Odyssey, it slipped and slipped, then in the end it had serious bugs. Attrition played a part there too.

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[John Carmack]

>Cutting edge graphics, where did you go? Please tell me there's more to the 3D world than IR,
>WildCat II, and GeForce3. Has *nothing* (other than cost) really changed over the past five
>years? It's almost as though I haven't missed anything in the 28 months I've been away from 3D

Dependent texture reads are the only really new thing in the last year or two (and only really got worked out right in the Radeon 8500), but next year is going to see floating point pixel formats, which was going to be one of Bali's truly important points. We should also see highly scalable boards built on consumer chips, which has been promised for years, but (with the exception of some 3dfx high end systems) not delivered properly.

John Carmack

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow - John Carmack replied to an AC!

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[green pizza]

Given the history of Bali and Odyssey, it's hard to feel good about the future of SGI gfx pipes. IR4 won't be much of an upgrade and still isn't due for awhile. Nothing about Tyhpon impresses me. *Sigh*. All that I/O and 6-year-old gfx subsystems running on it. And shoot, even on a brand-new O3K, the IR3 pipe are interfaced thru O2K-era Xtown rather than O3K-era Xtown2. *sigh*

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

John ownez!

Can't wait for the new DOOM :)

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

Get back to work fool! I need something to play! :P

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

There's been much more than dependant texture reads in the past few years. I design hardware, and my company has put more than that in our last few products.

New texture blend modes, like dot product for bumpmapping were added. Texture compression support is universal now. Cubic environment maps also hit hardware, useful for reflections and phong-like lighting among other things.

The latest n' greatest feature are the programmable pipelines. Vertex and pixel shaders are here, which can enable all sorts of new effects.

What hasn't changed in the past few years is opengl, which has been stuck in committee. One really needs to look at the extensions by the various vendors, or check out the dx8 sdk from MS to understand where graphics has been going.

There's more than floating point pixel formats in the near future as well. Displacement maps, bi-cubic texture filtering, and adaptive tesselation of high order primitives. Of course, the bandwidth internally and externally will make a leap to support these features.

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how long away it is till realistic body damage comes into play..like now in games when you shoot someone its a headshot, legshot, or just some damange liek blood coming off body. But when can you shoot off certain body parts like ears, arms, legs, and actully be realistic looking? Then you can walk up the the guy you filling for of buchshot, and see all the little hools in him, or actully see the hole in the head you got from snipin him across screen!

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah that would be so l33t !! i wish they make a Counte-strike mod to the new doom !

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's called Soldier of Fortune, and SOF 2 is coming soon.

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

Yo foo, are u saying JC dont know his thang? Man j00 r one crazy mofo. JC is like teh dude in da chair and damn ur just some nobody. You dont know shit k? JC = main brian k?

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[madshi]

Hi John, would you care to tell us your opinion about the Radeon 8500? Thank you... :-) Regards, Madshi.

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

Ehm, who would want that in a game? That is just snuff stuff, not a good game experience imo.

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Fragman]

hello mr carmack, make you things or effects with your new engine, wich will do not activate on boards like g3 or readon 8500? in an older interview you talk about your trinity engine about things you cannot make in realtime, such level morphing , you talk about voxel engines (volumes) and about the hardware evolution, that the trinity engine cannot accelerate with the current graphic hardware at the time . any changes with the current hardware like g3, readon 8500 or the future hardware. will we see trinity engine or is this plan dead, because the hardware goes in another direction? e.g. voxel cannot accelerate by dx8 feature set i mean. happy new year, Holger Tesch ps: sorry my english, i come from germany

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

no problem, I didnt understand JC's sentence either ;P

something I understood though.. the radeon is better than the gf3 on something? should I rather buy a radeon then? hmm I didnt even understand what it's better for, dependent texture reads ? isnt it what is used for the effect that was labelled environmental bump mapping?

I wonder how the new Doom engine will compare to Unreal 2 in term of particle effects ( heard it is pretty advanced compared to everything I have seen so far..
also wonder if shader effects will be more dynamic in the future... vertex deformation when polygons 'enter a zone of deformation' for instance, as opposed to be hardcoded in shader scripts

Re:Bali and Odyssey... *sigh*

[Fragman]

i 'd seen a video from doom3, where you can see the new partikel effects (the video was on an magazine dvd), and it lokks very realistic, fire is to see and it is amazing, better when the partikel effects i'd seen from unreal 2 pictures. from unreal2 i'd seen the fog effekt, when bullits hit steam, and the steam "separate" around the bullit, looks very good and realistic

10 Rules of Masturbation

[Sarcasm_Orgasm]

10 Rules of Masturbation
by Anonymous Jack

1. Faster
2. Faster
3. Faster
4. Faster
5. Faster
6. Faster
7. Faster
8. Faster
9. Faster
drum roll...
10. Faster

O you probally saw #10 cumming, didn't you?

SGI no longer owns it's own graphics patents.

[Anonymous Coward]

SGI's dirty little secret is that it has SOLD all of it's graphics patents to Microsoft for $62.5 million. They haven't informed anyone of this except in the most vague and general terms.

God knows what's next, it seems like the death spiral will only continue, they are carrying a lot of debt and are still losing cash. Even when selling the family silver they burn through cash like it was firewood. Their board and management really are miserably incompetent.

Re:SGI no longer owns it's own graphics patents.

[presearch]

Belluzzo was sent in specifically by Microsoft to rape SGI. Mission accomplished, he was rewarded with a top M$ exec job.
Thus was born DirectX 3D.
If Microsoft knocks on your door and you let them in, it's like taking a big hit of mil-grade anthrax.

Re:SGI no longer owns it's own graphics patents.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. D3D predates Rocket Rick. He did a lot of damage but your chronology is slightly skewed.

Re:SGI no longer owns it's own graphics patents.

[Jeremy Allison - Sam]

I was at SGI during the Belluzzo years. I have to agree with this comment. How this man escaped criminal proceedings against him is beyond me....

The best comment I read on the SGI mailing lists when Belluzzo went to Microsoft (at about the same time that Start Wars, Episode one was released) was "so now it is revealed, there are always two, a master *and* an apprentice...".

:-) :-).

Great place to work though - GO SGI !!!!!

Jeremy.

Why not Apple?

[swb]

I've always liked Apple as a suitor to SGI.

Apple won't or can't compete in the commodity corporate desktop world and trying to expand that market would be a waste of time and money. The niche markets they do dominate, such as print production, are suffering to some extent from stagnation. The markets aren't growing bigger and with the general softness in the ad markets, I can tell you (as an ad industry employee) that budgets to replace B&W G3s with G4s wholesale aren't going to be there like they were 2-3 years ago when G3s rapidly replaced earlier PPC Macs -- there's little end user demand and ZERO management push.

Buying SGI would provide Apple with an entry into a world of higher-end computing than they currently have and would enable them to provide a much more vertically integrated solution to markets that are somewhat out of reach for them in terms of software and hardware -- high end film production, animation, and scientific visualization. From a technology perspective, it would give a credibility boost to Apple's nascent Unix and allow them to have hardware unified by a single OS.

It may be arguable that Apple's credibility in creative circles, early-to-market product offerings, and increasingly high performance machines will give it the bottom third of the video production market by default, and that SGIs technology is rapidly being obsoleteed by commodity hardware.

However, I don't think that there's nearly the growth prospect in desktop video that there was in desktop publishing or the huge edge over x86, either. And own its own, Apple still can't escape the low-end niche it sits in.

Re:Why not Apple?

[BWJones]

Apple certainly might be able to do it. Comparing market cap rates, SGI is around 585 Million whereas, Apple is around 6.8 Billion with 4Billion in cash. One of many issues is how would one go about integrating SGI into Apple safely without bringing Apples share price down significantly. And finally integrating the different corporate strategies, management, engineers etc... would be difficult. My guess is that much of SGI's sales force has already been eliminated, but I am not sure about that. If Apple did purchase SGI, they could 1) sell/dump/can the NT thing, saving many $$'s 2) Integrate IRIX and the SGI developed Linux technology into OSX, and forget all further development of SGI Linux, and IRIX saving redundant development $$'s 3) Integrate the storage and server divisions into Apple to aggressively go after the business market, 4) create migration paths from IRIX to move the workstation segment to OSX and G4/G5 making the workstations more affordable,easier to support, and more flexible, 5) eventually power their visualization systems by OSX (if feasible) or spin the visualization business off into its own division for federal, university, and large corporate users.

I am not quite sure how one would market this, considering that Apple has (two perhaps three?) principal markets right now. Consumer (web, personal management, games), professional (multimedia types), some science users (utilizing many areas). The acquisition of SGI would really present another two or three markets to play to, but the technology could eventually end up merging many potential markets given cheap enough hardware/software, and powerful enough systems. As it is right now, most consumers do not need the power that most computer firms are touting. (My in-laws are still using a 7100/66 for web, email, and writing letters. It is a totally useable machine, however I think I will replace it with a flat panel iMac this year.) At any rate, the consumer Mac line could go forward, with the G4/5 line integrating technology from SGI's workstation market essentially blending two to three markets right there while the server and visualization markets could add one or two for a total of 3-4 markets with which to focus on eliminating lots of redundancy and decreasing costs.

As for support, I would guess that Apple would have to support IRIX for a decade or more given the mission critical applications that rely upon it. This would be one of the costs/risks associated with an acquisition of SGI. In the computer industry, planning 5 years down the road is hard enough, but 10?!?!

they will never do the obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

SGI need to bring the silicon grafic name back, buy back BeOS from Palm, build hardware accelerated voxel+raytracing video card. All that around cheap PC part (exept for the video part)

Make a pretty case, sell on the name.

[Snowfox]

Is it just me, or should SGI still be able to sell based on the name, if they take a rational desktop approach?

A pretty, curvy plastic case with the SGI logo prominently displayed, and they could probably compete with Dell for workstation products, while adding 10-15% just for the name.

I work in video games. Many of us, especially my artist coworkers, have worked with SGI extensively in the past. They miss the SGI platform, many with a fondness on par with that of the typical Linux, Mac or Amiga fanatic. And these people do have a voice when it comes to purchasing. If these guys thought they could get "An SGI that runs Windows," but at a sane price (they missed this part with their Windows endeavors), they'd jump on it.

Hell, I'd probably get one too, just for the novelty of it. A bona-fide SGI running Linux just feels cooler than generic PC hardware, even if I know the internals are identical.

There's probably a lot of money to be made in selling branded PC hardware. When Gateway bought Amiga, they could have probably sold thousands more units just by replacing front panels with something stylish and Amiga-esque, flashing a set of BIOSes with a snazzy "Amiga Phoenix" or similar logo & tossing a UAE CD and a Boing! mug in the box. There was no need for them to look into reinventing the PC, just like it was silly of SGI to go about trying to reinvent the PC when they tried shipping Windows products. Commodity hardware is rocketing forward so fast that most any attempt at creating custom hardware for your own PC products is purely daft. It's all about presentation.

Certainly, pretty cases wouldn't have to be SGI's only business line, but it could certainly be a source of safe & easy revenue to help turn things around.

MOD THIS UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sombody mod this up! I know this is slashdot, but at least try to separate the wheat from the chaff, this has REAL INFORMATION in it.

The demise of Unix companies ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... started the day they started charging for the
'C' compiler. Good-bye IBM, HP, SCO, SGI, DEC, etc. Viva Linux!

The reason why SGI will never die

[GoofyBoy]

I haven't read the above article but SGI will never die because its too important to the US military.

Its like the US having no gun makers or no airplane makers. The military needs a domestic supplier.

Re: I/O performance for non-graphics tasks

[petej]

In 1994 I was working for a big company where an SGI salesman came in and gave us exactly this pitch. He said that if they had enough I/O bandwidth to animate dinosaurs (referring to the original Jurassic Park), they had plenty of bandwidth for DB apps, and claimed Yahoo! as an early company who had bought in to the idea (at one time, Yahoo! and Netscape were big SGI shops).

It's bizarre to hear that your friend was behind the curve of what the salesfolk were pitching.

Cool cases and such

[saintlupus]

I find Irix to have the sweetest desktop out there of any Unixes I've ever used (Gnome and KDE pundits may repectfully disagree). Hell, even the cases they put their machines in are works of art.


Sigh. And every CS student I've got interning for me says I'm a clueless pansy for using an iMac with OS X at home.

Double standards rock, eh?

--saint

HewCom PackPaq.

[saintlupus]

Both HP and Compaq seem to be treating their unix offerings as an afterthought compated to cheap shitty PCs and winprinters.

A friend of mine just ordered a copy of Tru64 for the Alpha he bought on eBay -- took him almost an hour to explain to the Compaq sales droid on the phone what Tru64 was and what hardware it ran on.

When pretty much every architecture but the PowerPC and the x86 went tits-up, I knew things were getting bad. But when someone from the company that now owns DEC didn't know what "Unix" was, that's when I realized how boring this industry has really gotten.

--saint

Really interesting: FAM: file alteration monitor

[fanatic]

SGI has created the file alteration monitor and ported it to linux. (This shows up as '/etc/xinetd.d/sgi_fam' in RH7.2.) This allows apps to request a central daemon to monitor files and directories for modification, so that the apps can be notified when this happens. I've started playing with this and it looks cool. This helps provide real-time auditing of file activities on critical files - helps mollify the security types, which is important in a corporate setting.

Moderators..please stop moderating this fuck

[Anonymous Coward]

this guy is a known troll. check his posting history. also, isn't it just a bit convenient that he has a buddy at sgi? just like how it was convenient he was a certified electrician, linux coder, sysadmin, and everything under the sun when some story came up. i would not believe a single word of what this fucktard says.

When will I see a SGI graphics card...

[Gat1024]

for my pee cee?

Hell, "graphics" is in their name! What's wrong with giving NVidia and ATI a little competition, especially at the gamer and prosumer level? How about a sub $1,000 card that does digital video in and out, accelerates OpenGL with *precision* and spanks NVidia at games?

Hell they can tweak on of their old boards and milk it all it's worth. And it shouldn't cut into their fat margin business.

Who needs SGI? Go OS X!

[Anonymous Coward]

SGI - Overpriced, underperforming junk. Ugly cases. Just a dressed-up UNIX with a terrible GUI.

Linux - Runs on PeeCee and Alpha (glorified PeeCee from Compaq). Not even worth mentioning.

Mac OS X - A REAL OS (based on BSD and NeXT), running on yummy hardware (Apple Mac G4) and soon to be the SGI-Linux killer!

most user friendly unix ever

[small_dick]

they sure had a nice finder and environment, especially for the day.

i've heard the main reason for migrating to Linux is a variety of shortcomings in the Unix/Irix code base that are irreperable, but not too sure about that.

i think it would be neat for them to have a partnership with Sony and make a hot-rod linux/MIPS PS2 and put the SGI badge on it.

My gut feeling is that the PC box makers are going to be under a huge cloud as Microsoft starts using next generation Xboxes to get around the court ordered OEM restrictions.

that makes the low-end market very open to ew styles and configurations of consoles.

They're doomed.

[mallan]

SGI keeps making mistake after mistake. I don't see how they have a snowball's chance in hell unless they axe their entire marketing team.

They came out with a pretty nice IA32 Linux workstation, the 330. Performance was good, the graphics smoked the O2's, and old IRIX customers were interested in porting to Linux. The machines were a little more expensive than what you could get from Dell, but SGI was fully supporting their machines. They provided documentation and APIs to help customers port from IRIX to Linux. The extent of Dell Linux support is "it should work on our machines."

The government and special effects industries have been two of SGI's biggest customers for years. Not only did SGI kill their IA32 Linux line before the government had a chance to buy them (the bulk of government spending comes at the end of the government's fiscal year. SGI dropped the 330 about a month before then), they killed their Linux line a couple of months before ILM decided to dump 600 O2 workstations in favor of Linux boxes.

They kept the 330 on the market for less than one year. People who wanted to get SGI AI32 Linux workstations never had an opportunity to buy them. If they had just kept their 330's on the market for another 3 months, they would have been selling them like hotcakes to former IRIX shops.

They're doomed. They've effectively handed away the Linux graphics workstation market to Dell, HP and custom shops.

A nice app or two wouldn't hurt either

[Anonymous Coward]

We were running a a series of O2K's when our main software vendor said they supported us, not SGI. So we were given a time table to move to the new Corp Dictate, SUN. Our Sun system will be comparable to the IRIX system, once we get up to Soalris 8, and replace our E450's with something that can handle the load, like a 6800's, and once we double our networks because Sun can't handle the number of connections. I don't want to even mention internal bandwidth issues or ecache issues. It's enough to make a unix admin switch to Oracle.

sgi - Silicon Graphics

[Anonymous Coward]

bring back the Silicon Graphics name!it seems that my indigo 2 now belongs to a company that dosent exist anymore. and besides there old logo is much much better than just SGI!

But SGI isn't what the military needs now...

[wagadog]

Whiz-bang graphics goes over great with the majors and generals in times of peace, when VR training is the only kinda combat experience the kids are going to see (thank god).

But even then Duke Nukem beat the pants off of Army MODSAF running on an SGI for urban combat training. Why was that? Big cushy military contracts don't necessarily create the best product for the job, that's why.

Now SGI thinks it's going to return to the good old days of impressing majors and generals with wiz-bang graphics, and being able to charge through the nose -- but that's not what's going to happen.

Why? Two reasons:

1. Nobody's impressed with SGI's graphics any more. They get good enough realism and 3D on a PC -- good enough for government work -- even for flight simulators.
2. What the War On Terror needs isn't wiz-bang graphics: it's Database Integration and Biometrics . The name of the game is "Where's Waldo," not "The Red Baron."

Anyway, what killed SGI wasn't so much their market position -- it was their shite compilers that *never* kept up with gcc, and complete lack of compatibility with *anything* else in the *nix world.

Re:But SGI isn't what the military needs now...

[Anonymous Coward]

You are incorrect.

The SGI C compiler produces machine code that is more optimized than the machine code produced by gcc.

The SGI C compiler will also parallelize your code.

Re:But SGI isn't what the military needs now...

[Anonymous Coward]

You are misinformed about graphics.

Visual simulation requires more than an single channel. IRIX is real time and support APIs that let me (not you I assume) describe a scene and then put 'views' around it. So if I create a visual simulation for a fighter jet I can concentrate on coding the world and the SGI system will take care of correctly displaying multiple 'views' of this world on several different displays. Like left right up down et cetera. Your PC can't. Not even close.

"Here's a nickle, son, buy yourself a better computer"

Re:But SGI isn't what the military needs now...

[green pizza]

The name of the game is "Where's Waldo"

Exactly why you need a machine with gobs of bandwidth and the ability to sift through terabytes of textures as fast as your pentium can sift thru megabytes of text.

interesting?

[Anonymous Coward]

you're joking, right?

all the engineers left in 1996.

now they want to sell linux/ia64 boxes, because it's a potential money maker they can still get at without actually having any engineers.

that's interesting?

The darling of the tech industry

[Anonymous Coward]

The ignoarance of /. readers amazes me. SGI's big business is in military applications and they generate billions of dollars of revenue from this.

Some of the posts here claiman nVidia solution on todays PC's can compete with SGI. Not on your life. I have seen demos of SGI workstations capturing and morphing video in real time..ie stretching a face and all subsequent captured frames keep the stretched aspect. Absolutely truly amazing stuff and you are not going to do this with some off the shelf capture card and any $300 Nvidia card.

And to the Linux howler monkeys. IRIX is a RTOS, Linux is not and until there is Real Time Lixux, Linux is not even in the same league.

SGI flew high when tech on Wall Street menat innovatation and computers doing amazing things. Wall Sstreet redefined tech to mean AOL, MSFT and consumer grade crap. SGI was pressured into offering wintel platforms intot he consumer market to appease the Wall Street analysts. Well it is a good thing that everyone found out how much of jackasses Wall Street analysts were and technology gems like SGI just might shine bright again.

(OT...)

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious... any specific reason for the "fF"-artifact -- conscious, or software-caused?

SGI Logo

[abdulla]

i think you need to update the logo :)

Re:SGI Logo

[PotatoHead]

No way. That cube logo is the best. It represents what SGI should be getting back to instead of where it went with the new logo. Hope the cube stays...

MIPS and SGI

[abdulla]

at one time sgi had a passion for acquiring other companies (cray, etc), did they also own mips at one time? and could the whole acquisition and former micorosft man stumble be attributed to sgi's downfall?

SGI, in search of a purpose

[Animats]

SGI, as others mentioned, has the basic problem that the low end ate the high end in graphics and servers. They're a high-margin company in a business that went low-margin. Few companies survive that.

SGI has changed direction so many times in the past five years (moving into servers, deemphasizing graphics, selling NT workstations, deemphasizing servers, dumping the NT workstation line, reemphasizing graphics, acquiring Intergraph's line of overpriced NT workstations...) that customers can't rely on them following through on anything. And that doesn't even include the Cray acquisition and dismantling.

I noticed the remark in the article: "In its cost-cutting measures, SGI sold its nine buildings and leased back six of them." That's so SGI. This is right after they finished the new, zowie HQ building in Mountain View, and emptied out the fancy Silicon Studios building.

One big SGI success is Alias/Wavefront's Maya. That's one of the very few examples in the history of high-tech when a company bought two technology companies and actually got them to work together. Maya was a major advance, and dethroned Softimage|3D as the lead package in high-end animation. That's an incredible result from a merger.

Of course, they had to sell Maya on NT to make any money. So it didn't do much for SGI's hardware business.

[Meta] Moderation?

[lovelace]

Why is this comment moderated to -1? It is not a troll. Rather, it is someone expressing his view on a particular situation that is relevant to the post it is attached to. Please, someone with moderation points mod this up at least a little bit...

Justifying My Metamoderating...

[Lethyos]

You're a meta-moderation terrorist. Not to mention a complete fucking cocksmoking fuckwad. I mean, where the FUCK do you get off meta-moderating negative ratings as unfair? Are you saying things like Klerck's page-lengthening posts should be left at a default posting level of 1 (which it would be, if nobody moderated down).

And the risk of feeding a hungry troll, let me justify why I don't give credit to moderators who waste their points on people like you.

First of all, take your average /. story submission. After the first 24 hours, you're probably looking at a ballpark figure of 200-400 replies. Often in this range, you'll get anywhere between 0 and 10 posts that get moderated up to a score 4 or 5. By this time, the default reading level collapses posts of 3 points or less, and filters AC's who have start with a score of 0.

Now, given that when you are chosen to do a moderation on this system, you get five points. If you pick 5 good posts, you can raise all 5 of them above the cacophony of the discussion. However, if you take your 5 points, and find 5 trolls out of hundreds, you accomplish absolutely nothing but indirectly censor 5 people who deserve to have their comments read.

I've seen dozens of really awesome, insightful posts that only made it to 3, and thus get collapsed (making reading more of a hassle), but in the same forum, there are some trolls with a whole lot of negative moderations. (They ONLY have to be modded down ONCE people, and they don't lose more karma after they've hit -1.) So, as you can see, moderating ANYONE down is inherently unfair because it only hurts the people who post intelligent comments.

Think about it.

Re:Justifying My Metamoderating...

[srvivn21]

Ironic isn't it? I found your post, because it was one I got to meta-moderate.

Anyways, I have to write to disagree. Meta-moding every negative post as unfair without even checking the contents seems to me to be as productive as marking the first five comments you see "Insightful" regardless of content.

I take meta-moding seriously. I take moderating seriously. I choose to not use my moderation points to "punish" bad posts, but I can respect those who do. Sure I find the whole downgrading AC posts wasteful, but I choose not to do it.

True, once a troll post has hit -1, the poster doesn't loose any more Karma, but enough -1 mods (of non "Offtopic" or "Redundant" nature) and their IP gets banned from posting. Perhaps that puts negative moderation in a different light?

I'm in agreement with you that negative posting is wasteful, but I also don't feel that it is completly evil.

Re:Who needs SGI? Go OS X!

[Anonymous Coward]

This poster is a waste of skin ...

compilers via Developer Plus

[Anonymous Coward]

While I can't speak for the OS, you can get the full compiler and debugger suite as part of "DeveloperPlus" membership.

SGI has two levels to the developer program: DeveloperOnline and DeveloperPlus. The former for anyone (gives access to info online), and the latter to those meeting certain criteria. Both are free, but only DeveloperPlus includes the goodies.

Before you get discouraged, keep in mind that the requirements for DeveloperPlus were written with businesses in mind and don't really apply to Joe Student. **BUT** SGI is willing to make exceptions to hobbyists and students that could make use of the commercial compilers and tools (MIPSpro C, C++, F77, F90... ProDev Workshop [speedshop, etc]). The fellow that helped me is Robert Green, green@sgi.com. Fill out the DeveloperPlus application (www.sgi.com/developers) the best you can, then email Robert and explain your situation. No promises, but it's worth a shot.

And for those looking for gcc, GNOME, etc... hop on over to http://freeware.sgi.com. Most is for IRIX 6.5, but in their FTP site is an archive of the freeware site from about a year ago, when everything worked fine on 6.2 and up.

Hope this helps...

Um, no they couldnt

[autopr0n]

The MIPS R4k chip is a CPU, not a graphics processor. I have a PDA with an R4k as well, but they don't do 3d. It wouldn't really have made much sense to put them on GFX cards. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Hahahaha

[autopr0n]

So, one billion dollars is "rougly zero"? (4g cash + 25g owed = 29g total)

Reason SGI will die...

[djcdplaya]

SGI will fall due not to technical dificulties, but due to the problems in acquiring a system.

If I want a new Compaq or HP, I can go to the other Evil Empire (wal-mart) or to some electronic retailer. If I want a Dell or IBM, I can hop on their website and configure one (which you can do on SGI's website) and then purchase it right there (which you can't do on SGI's site).

With SGI, you have to go through salesmen. How many of you want to put up with that?

Re:Reason SGI will die...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure many of us order multi-million dollar systems online.

Yeah right.... Will that be visa or mastercard?

That's really the lamest comment I've read today.

One word: Itanium

[fm6]

Other than its ability to run on cheap (price and often quality) hardware, I still don't understand SGI's movement to Linux.

They're not getting into Linux for its own sake. It's a hardware thing. SGI needs to sell more commodity-processor system -- lower costs, bigger software base. But what OS to use? They basically have three choices:

1. Port IRIX to the Itanium. Expensive, and not a good way to grow their customer base. People who prefer IRIX will want to run it on MIPS-based systems anyway.
2. NT. License fees, scalability. They've actually done an NT workstation or two, but the market was underwealmed. SGI just no longer has a role in the low-end workstation market.
3. Linux. No license fees. There are scalability issues here too, but the source is open, and the Linux community is more than happy to accomodate SGI's needs. Especially after they contributed a few nice toys, like XFS.

Before the layoffs, I would have pointed out that SGI's customer support division is one of the few operations making actual money, so perhaps they hope to sell support and integration contracts for other people's hardware. When I worked there two years ago, all the support people were studying every Linux distro they could find, not just SGI Linux. But that division was hit bad by the layoffs. Perhaps Linux support isn't the cash cow they'd hopped. Perhaps they just needed to get their head count down, and screw the business plan.

Re:SGI compilers, compatability

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyway, what killed SGI wasn't so much their market position -- it was their shite compilers that *never* kept up with gcc,

The SGI C and C++ compilers are quite ISO standards conformant, and SGI takes me seriously when I report minor transgressions.

The overall optimization levels of the compilers is very good. There are a couple of constructs that gcc does better, but only a few, and SGI takes all the other bouts.

SGI's checking for invalid, non-standard, and depreciated constructs, is much better than gcc's. SGI's compilers often find many errors in programs that pass gcc's checking completely cleanly. These are not spurious warnings, either: I have hardcopies of the C and C++ standards, and the problems highlighted by the SGI compilers are real ones.

It is true, though, that SGI's compilers "never kept up with gcc" -- when what you are talking about is extensions to the language. SGI does not tend to impliment the latest gcc-isms.

SGI's compilers have been well-suited to my workplace -- but then our policy is to create clean standards-conformant code, avoiding non-portable extensions.

and complete lack of compatibility with *anything* else in the *nix world.

SGI's IRIX is a hybrid of BSD and System V. I have had very little trouble in importing a wide variety of applications-level code, or lower-level code that makes an attempt to be standards conformant. Again, though, SGI does not particularily attempt to imitate the latest Linux kernel mods.

If riding the forefront of gcc and Linux changes is what is important to you, then IRIX will undoubtedly seem quite pedestrian. For us, IRIX functions spendidly as a tool -- a tool we can rely on to work very solidly to underpin our scientific work. We want our developers to concentrate on their biomedical research, not on which jagged edge of gcc is going to skewer them next.