The Euro

Dizer writes: "Today sees the historic introduction of the new European Currency (Euro) into European hands. The Eurozone market, with a population of 300 million people, will be cashing in their Punts, Francs and Deutschmarks in favour of the new common Euro currency. This is the biggest currency transition in history, vive l'Europe! See stories on ireland.com or the BBC."

Comments

Simple question..

[dj28]

Why did Britain (the country with the most stable currecny) opt out of using the Euro?

Re:Simple question..

[Lemmy Caution]

Partially, I think you answered your own question: the stability of the pound, and the fact that it often outperforms the dollar, makes it easier to maintain as a separate currency.

Also, there's a lot of political resistence to Europeanization in the UK. Many there seem to still think of the Continent as chaotic, unreliable, and irrational. There is an ongoing political pressure to slow down the UK's entry into the EU.

Ireland, on the other hand, has done extraordinarily well with European integration, and the Irish pound has been replaced by the Euro.

Re:Simple question..

[NoOneInParticular]

Not really, before the euro, the deutchmark was the most stable currency. Remember 199x (x &lt 5), when the British pound was forced out of the EMU (monetary union) by Soros (amongst others). At that time, which was not too far in the past, the pound was the weakest currency, a state they shared with the Italian lire.

Re:Simple question..

[mESSDan]

The fact that Ireland has done extraordinarily well with European integration is probably NOT why it is using the Euro. Ireland has had more than its share of problems with the English, and probably welcome any changes that lead it away from English dependence.

Re:Simple question..

[Anonymous Coward]

The UK opted out of joining the party back in the early 90s while the Conservatives were in power. The current 'New' Labour government has promised a referendum - they want us to join the Eurozone but prefer to leave it to the voters to take the blame for either joining or staying out.
The UK government's policy right now is that we should join the Eurozone "when the time is right" and "when certain conditions are met". The media are now bored with asking what the conditions are, because Blair refuses to state the conditions, just in case we happen to meet them, and then he'd have to make a decision.
Personally, I think Blair will wait about 6 months so that we can see that the Euro hasn't blown up in French and German faces, and then he'll set a date for the referendum.
Current opinion polls suggest us Brits don't want to adopt the Euro. However, I'd guess that 90% of the public are clueless about the implications, and all they see are rabid tabloid headlines that make it look more like a Martian invasion than a currency change.
The primary objection from those in the know is that losing the pound means losing control over setting interest rates. The primary objection from those without a clue is the change from pounds and pence to using Monopoly money.

Re:Simple question..

[Lemmy Caution]

The Republic of Ireland as a political entity has reasonably amicable relations with the UK, and its monetary policy is almost certainly not dictated by a need to distance itself from London. Ireland's current economic success depend partially on a very well-educated but less expensive English-speaking workforce, and some good economic policies. Ireland could have maintained its old currency and still have not a whit of dependence on the UK - it might, however, have lost its strength as a bridge between the European and the US economies.

Re:Simple question..

[Alan Partridge]

As a Briton, even I would have to say that the D-mark was the strongest currency in the EU by FAR, possibly with Sterling coming second. In purely economic terms, Germany outranks the UK easily. Go ask the OECD, UK and France are fairly even with Italy and Spain next. For comparison purposes, the Spanish economy is around the same size as Mexico's. If you think of European states as you would American ones, then Germany, the UK and France all outrank California or NY.

Re:Simple question..

[Jabes]

As the Chancellor said in his October 1997 statement, the Five Economic Tests will define whether a clear and unambiguous case can be made. The Five Tests are:

* sustainable convergence between Britain and the economies of a single currency;

* whether there is sufficient flexibility to cope with economic change;

* the effect on investment;

* the impact on our financial services industry;

and

* whether it is good for employment.

Some comentators have suggested that these conditions are so vague that it would be easy to claim we have met them, or haven't as required. Unfortunately I don't understand the economics enough.

What I will say though, is as a Director of UK software company that exports to Europe, and as a frequent traveller to Europe, the quicker we get the Euro the better.

Re:Simple question..

[Zeinfeld]

Why did Britain (the country with the most stable currecny) opt out of using the Euro?

Because of the internal divisions in the Conservative (Tory) party.

The history is that the Major government took over from Thatcher after she had been governing the country for 11 years and had become amazingly unpopular. The economy was in a mess and headed for a recession, people were fed up with crackpot schemes such as the poll tax, unemployment was high and the public services were collapsing. In many ways the 1992 election was similar to the 2000 US election, the right won an election that on all political calculations they should have lost. But they did so on a minority of the vote and with a very small majority in the Commons.

One of the reasons Thatcher had become unpopular in the party was that she had become anti-European and had refused to countenance going into the then ERM, a currency board that predated the Euro. When Major as Chancellor finally persuaded Thatcher to let him take the country in the pound was unrealistically high. This then led in part to the economic crisis that would peak a few years later in 1993. a bunch of speculators led by Goerge Sorros realised that HMG could not sustain the pound at its then level in the ERM, it was simply unsustainable. But Major and co refused to countenance a devaluation. Finaly the markets won and the pound fell out of the ERM. This had the immediate effect of ending the recession caused by an over-valued pound. The cost however was the Major government's credibility since they had spent $20 billion trying to sustain the higher level - equivalent to the cost of running the air force at the time.

The longer term effect was that a sizable faction in the Tory party began to use anti-Europeanism as a means to snipe at Major. A hard core of about a dozen rebels lost the party whip, but they had a large number of sympathisers. More importantly they were better organized in the constituency parties which are typically racist and reactionary.

In the 1997 election the Tory party was virtually anahilated, loosing 200 seats. That is their worst performance since universal suffrage. As always in the UK the MPs to loose their seats were the ones in the most marginal constituencies. These were also by and large the ones that were industrial rather than agricultural and as a result the ones most likely to have Europhile MPs.

By 1997 there was no prospect of the UK entering the Euro in the first wave even thought the pragmatic Blair administration supported the idea. That meant that there was no prospect of entering in that parliament. By now the Tory party was virulently opposed to the Euro and had made it practically their only campaign issue. If there was a referendum and the Tory party was to win a No vote it could easily allow the Tories to recover their lost momentum, possibly winning the next election. The political cost of negotiating to enter the Euro was consequently high and the benefit negligible since it could not be completed in one parliament.

The political calculation at this point is rather different. It now makes little difference whether the UK joins in 2003 or 2008, having missed the opportunity to set the ground rules the UK might as well watch what happens. The current Euro exchange rate is absurdly low and so a more equitable exchange rate to the pound and dollar is likely to sort itself out. It is likely that HMG will choose that moment to declare some form of currency peg. Over time the peg will become more permanent leading eventually to the UK entering the Euro.

The political advantage to doing so early remains low, the cost high. This is particularly so since 60% of the UK media market is controlled by Rupert Murdoch, an Austrailian with no particular concern for the UK or its inhabitants but a considerable and justified fear of the European Union curtailing his ambitions through anti-monopoly (trust) regulation.

Re:Simple question..

[Asic Eng]

No disagreements, just want to add something here: One of the results of having not joined the Euro, is that the European Central Bank is now located in Frankfurt, instead of London.

London is the number one financial place in Europe, it would have been pretty hard for another country to get this institution, if Britain had joined right away.

Re:Simple question..

[jackal!]

Why did Britain (the country with the most stable currecny) opt out of using the Euro?

Actually, you just answered your own question. One of the biggest reasons for Europe to unite under one currency is larger stability for all. Since the pound is pretty solid, this sales point doesn't mean much to the old Empire.

Re:Simple question..

[Zeinfeld]

Initially I thought this was a good way of looking at it, but now I think you're not quite right. The Conservatives won the 1992 election simply because the Labour government of the time (Socialist, blatantly Left Wing) was unpalatable to the majority of the electorate..

Actually the election was far more finely balanced. The Tories benefitted from an unexpectedly high turnout which was largely due to the weather, it was the first fine day of spring. The margin was very narrow, less than 2000 votes in 20 seats. In fact had the 50 seats with the smallest majorities gone 50:50 to Tory/Labour then Labour would have won narrowly.

The voter perception of Labour policy was largely fuelled by the Murdoch press. What Major offered was a Conservative government minus Thatcher. The mistake the Labour party had made was that by daemonising Thatcher they allowed the Tories to get re-elected simply by putting a new face at the helm. The Labour policy changes from 1992 through 1997 were of presentaion, not substance.

The major change was not in the Labour party but in the Conservatives. Racked with open internal warfare few of the cabinet made any attempt to conceal their contempt for their party leader. The numerous corruption scandals, starting with sex and ending with peculation and perjury erased any remaining vesigest of respect for the party.

The main similarity between 1992 and 2000 is the extent to which a viciously partisan press tipped the balance in favour of the right. Bush was consistently praised despite his obvious deficiencies while every opportunity was taken to attack Gore. So Bush got a bye for lying about driving while drunk while Gore was called a liar for mistakenly saying he visited Texas with the head of FEMA when it was the deputy head, he having visited 19 other states with the head one might think it an innocent mistake. The list goes on.

The relevance to the Euro is that but for the campaign against it in the Murdoch press it is unlikely that UK opposition would be anything like as great.

We will see if the end result is the same, before 9/11 that looked very likely. The ecconomy was in recession, the administration had lost control of the Senate due to crass political judgement, the California energy crisis caused by blatant market manipulation by Bush's texas cronies at Enron. Of course the hil Bush now needs to climb is that the press loves nothing better than making history repeat. So just as the Clinton years were spent trying to repeat Watergate, the press will now be trying to tie Bush II to the script of Bush I.

Re:Simple question..

[Zeinfeld]

Rupert Murdoch gave up his .au citizenship some years ago to comply with US media ownership rules when he took over FOX

Actually he acquired US citizenship and through political chicanery was able to keep his .au citizenship, thus allowing him to keep his vast .au holdings.

Re:Simple question..

[Zeinfeld]

Sadly for them, they've failed, and London is still the financial capital of the world (with the debatable exception of NY; though I think the fact that we own the Bond, Gold, FX, Swap and Euromarkets settles it).

I would agree, except that due to the timezone differences, the London markets are more complimentary to the US rather than competing. The trading day starts somewhere in Asia (once Tokyo, someday soon HK as a proxy for Bejing), transfers to London and from there to NYC. To be a major player you have to be in both London and NYC.

The argument that the UK should go in for the sake of the city is specious however. In the first place the city will use any currency they care to, the commodity markets may well switch to the Euro without parliament. But the city will always have to use the dollar and the Euro until there is world government and a true single currency.

The city will do fine with or without the UK in the Euro. If the govt. were to do anything for the city, getting rid of some of the culture of old bufferism would have greater effect. Of course we all believe in self regulation until we have a lloyds style catastrophe, then we go to HMG for a bailout.

Re:Simple question..

[Tony Hoyle]

In general the majority of the british population see the 'foreigners' as either peasants/pig farmers or 'militant french farmers' (who for some bizarre reason every time they have a problem with their government they blockade calais... I suspect they don't like us either...)

Also one of the most powerful countries in the EU is Germany. British people don't trust germans - even the under 30's who you wouldn't think would bother about a war fought 60 years ago have this inherited distrust from their parents and grandparents.

And, well, *everybody* hates the French :-)

Personally I can't see it happening in my lifetime. Heck it took us 200 years to decimalize...

Re:Simple question..

[biglig2]

True. The point is that we didn't elect all of them. Analogy for the Americans: The distinction between Federal and state government. I imagine most of you prefer stuff to be decided at the state level, rather than Federal, so that the decisions are made as close to you as possible.

I must take issue with your statement that increased federalism is unrelated to the Euro.

Firstly, membership of the Eurozone prevents governments using certain financial controls to run their economy. So already theres a loss of sovreignty.

Secondly, shared currencies are bound to lead to tighter integration. It's a small step to, for example, harmonizing tax. (actually already on the way - but the euro makes it a simpler proposition)

Re:Simple question..

[Jon Peterson]

Hmmm, let me see, we vote for an EU parliament, which then chooses a president that then chooses a commission. So, the comission is already two steps away from democratic accountability.

Now, if the commission were a purely operational body that would be fine, but IT IS NOT. The EU commission is THE MOST POWERFULL PART OF THE EU POLITICAL MACHINE. Isn't that scary? Doesn't it worry you that ALL EU policy initiatives must originate in the Commission, a body which, in case you've forgotten, had EVERY SINGLE ONE of it's commissioners resign a few years ago over a corruption scandal.

That's a bit like every single head civil servant and the entire cabinet of a country resigning simultaneously. Isn't that scary? Doesn't it terrify you that we (Britain) are handing more and more power to these people?

Jeez.

Re:Simple question..

[tdye]

That said, I think the US government under Clinton was probably one of the best examples of government seen in the West in many many many years, if not ever. They made few changes to laws, and generally kept their nose out of public business (and especially the Internet).

Whoa... where were you? Clinton started in '92 with the Clipper chip, then went on to CDA and several other laws they proposed and argued for in the Supreme Ct... DMCA for one, but there were many others. Clintons proposed a national health system which was rejected, and they practically went to war against freeing crypto for export. It's only because of Gingritch and the coalition he put together to block net sales tax that it didn't happen.

Clinton's administration spent 8 years trying frantically to drive things to the left with only limited success (because of the GOP congress), and waged war against freedom on the internet the entire time.

Re:Simple question..

[RFC959]

...the monetary symbol "£", which of course originally means lire...

No it did not. It comes from the Latin "libra", which probably is also the origin of "lira", but the £ does not /mean/ lira.

Re:Simple question..

[gowen]

That's a bit like every single head civil servant and the entire cabinet of a country resigning simultaneously. Isn't that scary? Doesn't it terrify you that we (Britain) are handing more and more power to these people?

I thought you said they resigned? How can anyone hand power to people who have resigned...

Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[EnglishTim]

Read the Story.

Ireland *has* changed over to the Euro.

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[Lemmy Caution]

ireland is more or less a part of britain

Wow, you could get so very very beaten up for saying that. It would be like saying "Texas is really just part of New York, and tends to follow their policies." Not only wrong, but it would piss off both a lot of New Yorkers and even more Texans.

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[EnglishTim]

Ireland is not part of Britain. It is a completely seperate country which *has* now gone over to using the Euro. Perhaps you are confusing it with Northern Ireland, which is probably best described as a self-governing part of Britain.

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[squiggleslash]

The Republic of Ireland, home to the Irish Times, gained independence in 1945, and has (until today) used its own independent current (the punt) since. Northern Ireland is still part of the UK.

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[stripes]

ireland is more or less a part of britain, and follows their economic policy

Really? Practice this one: "Pesky Canada found to have it's own laws, customs"

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[pmc]

To think Ireland would use a different currency than the rest of the U.K.

Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom. It's straightforward:

Ireland is a nation. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a nation. This was formed for seperate nations, principalities, and provinces - England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. Most of Ireland left, leaving Northern Ireland. Meanwhile Great Britain is an island, which contains most of, but not all, of Scotland, England and Wales. Ireland is also an island, but doesn't only contain Ireland. The British Isles is an archipeligo, which contains Great Britain and all the smaller islands that go to make up the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and Ireland, and the Isle of Man. The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but is a dependancy. The Isle of Man is in the Irish Sea. The Channel Islands are not part of the British Isles, but are dependancies like the Isle of Man.

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, the names of the actual major islands in the British Isles are "Britannia" and "Hibernia".

Hibernia presently has 2 nations on it - The "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" and "Eire" (The Republic of Ireland).

Britannia has 3 nations on it - Scotland, Wales, and England, together known, rather grandly, as "Great Britain".

Note that up until the 10th century, confusingly, the nation on Hibernia was called "Scota Major", often mistranslated as Scotland, and the nation presently called Scotland was "Scota Minor". This situation arose because some of the ancestors of the present-day Irish living on Hibernia, the Scot Gaels, invaded Britannia and settled in Scotland (alternately killing/displacing/marrying, the previous inhabitants, the Picts). So, while the English later invaded Hibernia and inflicted Northern Ireland on the Irish, the Irish had already inflicted Scotland on the English... :-).

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[Alan Partridge]

Britannia has 3 nations on it - Scotland, Wales, and England, together known, rather grandly, as "Great Britain". Rather grandly? Great Britain is so-named because it derives from "Grand Bretagne" which distinguishes it from "Bretagne" proper in the Norman mind and tongue. It may not be considered so now, but England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland were all taken by the Normans.

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[ksheff]

The Republic of Ireland has been a soverign country since 1921. Maybe your are thinking of its withdrawl from the British Commonwealth in 1948.

Products in Ireland have had prices in euros and punts on them since at least 2000. Ireland is also a country that several US companies have chosen to be the location of their European subsidaries/offices since the population speaks English, is a part of the EU, and has realtively low taxes compared to the UK. I wouldn't mind living there.

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[mindstrm]

Ireland is not part of the British isles...

And what are these 'special priviles' in the UK granted to Irish citizens? I'm just curious.

To say that Ireland is 'dominated' by the UK , well, thems fighting words.
You seem to speak of Ireland like it's no different than the North, or Wales, or Scotland, or whatnot... but that's just not the case. Or if it is, everyone I met in Ireland forgot to tell me (which is quite possible I guess)

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[biglig2]

Closer to saying Mexico is part of New York. Ireland is an entirely indepenant country with very much their own ideas of how to run their country.

As an example...let me see... oh yes, Ireland has entered the Eurozone and the UK hasn't. can't get much more fundamental that that.

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[biglig2]

Er... we do have nukes, you know? And we are a pioneer of biological warfare? And I seem to recall us holding Hitler back single-handedly for quite a while...

Sure, you could slap us down eventually, probably by killing all of us, but you'd be missing a few cities and 40% of your population before you were done.

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[ksheff]

When I checked into it, the income tax hit that I would take wasn't much more than what I'm hit with here in the US (including FICA). I'm not sure if Dublin included their own special set of taxes or not (wasn't interested in that area anyway). The Brits that I talked to in Ireland said they paid less in taxes. According to this Ireland tax page and this UK income tax page, it could be a toss up depending on how much you make. I do know that the petrol taxes are much lower, while the VAT is a bit higher.

Re:Ireland *has* changed to the Euro

[ksheff]

Besides, when does a corporation really care how much its employees have to pay? How much it has to pay is all they ever really take into account. The top guys making the decision already have found ways to weasel out of paying as much as they can, so they don't care.

Ireland *is* part of the Euro-Zone !

[defender]

Ahem, Ireland is part of the Euro Zone...
The UK was EuroSceptic and opted out. But the attitude seems to be changing...
The countries partaking in the Euro:

• Germany
• Ireland
• Norway
• Greece
• France
• Luxemburg
• Austria
• Finland
• Belgium
• Italy
• Portugal
• Spain

The official (non-responding) Euro website: http://www.euro.ecb.int/ ...

Re:Ireland *is* part of the Euro-Zone !

[ostiguy]

Uh no. Norway is not in the EU. The Dutch who live in the Netherlands, and apparently include you, with a .nl url in his profile, are in the EU, *is* converting to the Euro.

sheesh!

ostiguy

Re:Ireland *is* part of the Euro-Zone !

[Rob Kaper]

Norway is not (yet) part of the Euro-zone. The Netherlands are. Byebye guilder.

Interesting to note...

[Jon Abbott]

...is that there are already reports of homeless people saying, "Willing to spare a Euro?"

Re:So what ASCII value will the Euro be?

[laurens]

I think it's alt+numeric 0128: Yup :-)

Re:Will slashdot change?

[Lemmy Caution]

After all, all they have to do is turn the Quake II icon sideways.

Re:So the storys...

[Majix]

The countries using the euro are:

Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal and Spain.

Also, some small states like San Marino, Monaco, the Vatican etc. will be using the euro, and Cuba (the government at least). Major chains in the UK will also accept the euro.

Picture of bills with US bill

[Therlin]

I was able to get a hold of a couple Euros and I took a picture with the only bill I had at home at the moment (a $2 bill)

Picture of a 5 Euro bill, 10 Euro bill, 1 Euro coin

They are pretty cool looking.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[AnalogBoy]

I want my money to look like a MS Software License too!!! :)

Actually those look really cool.. I wonder why the US keeps this drab, slashdot theme with the currency.. I know! lets convert to the Euro too! :)

I wish I understood the principles of economics.. I didn't have any classes in school about it (That i was awake for, long story).. I'm sure there is one or fifty /.ites (/.ians?) who would be willing to share their totally objective view.. i just have to say something inflammatory and utterly unfounded.. lets try this:

The US could transition over to the Euro overnight! It would have NO impact on our economy, and would make the world a better place, fostering peace between nations.. and bill gates would have another economy to help!

okay. that should do it.
:)

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[phillymjs]

They do in fact exist. They are just not so common.

Which, if you have a sense of humor like mine, makes it great, great fun to use them to pay for things when the cashier is too young to know they exist, or older and obviously uneducated.

~Philly

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[Ami Ganguli]

Well, there are certain advantages to having your own currency. The big thing is that interest rates, and the exchange rates are adjusted to your economy, not somebody elses.

Witness what's happening in Argentina right now. They pegged their currency to the U.S. dollar - in all practical terms that means they adopted the U.S. dollar. But the U.S. dollar kept gaining value as the American economy grew, so that Argentinian exports became too expensive and the economy suffered. A free-floating Peso would have devalued to keep things in balance.

This probably won't happen in Europe because European countries have been integrating their economies over the last half decade. With common regulations, and free-flowing goods, the economies should grow (or shrink) together. As long as that's true things should work out.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[snake_dad]

Hmm... overnight? That hurt, you flaming [fill in the blank]! :-)

I really, really hope for you that your country never switches currencies. These past 2 years, and especially the last couple of months have been hell, putting a lot of effort in adapting some real old software packages to a different currency, converting millions of records to the new values, dealing with rounding errors, and trying to find out where critical errors may come up.

The economy will not be affected very much imho, but for us IT people it has not been fun.

btw, you were right. That did it indeed :-)

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[Ami Ganguli]

Dunno. Time will tell I guess. But I don't see why the differences between European states should be greater than the differences between (for example) American states. Labour, goods, and capital move freely, so when one part of the Eurozone becomes undervalued investors should come in and snap up the bargains.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[Reality Master 101]

I wonder why the US keeps this drab, slashdot theme with the currency..

I hear this lament sometimes, and personally I like the US's drab money. All other countries make their money look like colorful "disney dollars". The US's money looks like serious money, dignified, beefy and substantial. There's no mistaking that the bill is a serious document.

Which is actually the problem I have with the newer currency. The artwork is a bit lighter weight, and just doesn't seem to have the "oomph" that the old currency had.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[Sloppy]

The US could transition over to the Euro overnight!

I see no reason for switching from one form of corruption and theft, to another. At least, right now, the theft is perpretrated by my own government, and I at least get a little bit back in services. If EU does it instead, I lose even more.

If US switches currencies, it should be to gold, silver, or something else that can't be so easily artificially messed with. The economy shouldn't be the government's business.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[avdp]

To further clarify your statement, the coins have two sides. One side is common to all countries, the other is country specific and show something country specific. For example, the Belgian Euro coins show a profile of the King - as every Belgian has always done for as far back as I can remember. Think of them as the new quarters in the US.

they of course all have the same weigh, shape, etc so that you can use any of them in vending machines, etc.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[Derwen]

They are pretty cool looking.

Just a slight problem with reality, though?

On US (and much other) currency the buildings are national monuments symbolic of a nation's power and/or aspirations...
However the bridges and arches to nowhere on the Toytown Euro cash are entirely imagined
By the time the USA had fully standardised on the dollar (1870s - iirc - when it finally had the reserves to back it up) they certainly had enough symbols of national identity.
The Euro is part of the project to impose 'nationhood' on the united states of Europe, despite their being no such nation - and thus no symbolic bridges and buildings upon which everyone can agree :-(

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[cowbutt]

The US's money looks like serious money, dignified, beefy and substantial.

OTOH, I prefer knowing that my european "disney dollars" and British pounds have substantial anti-counterfeiting measures which mean that although they may look insubstantial, they're actually more likely to be real money than a random US dollar bill... :-P

--

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[thogard]

Most of the unneeded work was because that some power hungry idiots decided they couldn't use a symbol that was already in the ASCII chart and picked a new one.

Remember the process of spending an E$ is called euronating.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[spudnic]

Then why don't they all just agree to put American images on their money?

Seriously, why didn't they do the 2 side thing for the bills like they did for the coins? It seems that it would help make the transition easier for traditionalists, and also create a market for collectors.

.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[uradu]

> Seriously, why didn't they do the 2 side thing for the bills like they did for the coins?

Well, perhaps they were afraid that the French would put nudie pictures and such on their bills, raising the ire (amongst other things) of more staid nations.

-

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[uradu]

> I think the primary motivation behind the colors of the euro notes is helping vision
> impaired people recognise them.

Following the successful introduction of the RFID, we now bring you--the talking Euro bill. Gently rub the bill and it will speak its value.

-

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[dgroskind]

They pegged their currency to the U.S. dollar - in all practical terms that means they adopted the U.S. dollar. But the U.S. dollar kept gaining value as the American economy grew, so that Argentinian exports became too expensive and the economy suffered.

Ecuador adopted the U.S. dollar as its national currency in March, 2000, and now, according to the Economist, "Ecuador is now Latin America's fastest-growing economy, its GDP set to expand by over 5% this year. Much of the social unrest of recent years has died down."

When a country can't control its own monetary policy, it is more likely a symptom of a serious problem, not a cause.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[rcs1000]

I won't get any Karma for this - but hey, I gave up whoring ages ago...

There are two common fallacies about sharing currencies between countries:

(1) It is necessary to have a shared government. Monetary integration *must* lead to political integration;
(2) Entering a 'common currency' is a once-and-for-all measure.

Both these can be countered by recent history.

Ireland and the UK.
Until the mid-1970s Ireland and the UK shared a currency - the British pound. This situation began with Irish independence at the beginning of the Century. Yet Ireland was not subsumed inside some British super-state. Ireland's independence as a country was never in doubt.

Ireland decided to go its own monetary way following the start of the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland. The Irish government made the, no doubt politically correct, decision that breaking from a currency agreement with a country responsible for 'Bloody Sunday' when tens of Catholic (Northern) Irish citizens were killed would not harm its electoral chances.

If anything, Ireland and the UK had less interlinked economies than most of the Eurozone (cf the figures for Ireland's exports as a % of GDP in the 1970s, esp. pre its entry into the EU - then the EEC.) Add in the almost complete lack of Ireland/UK trade resolution agreements - don't forget that one of Ireland's two major political parties was against the partion of Ireland - and it becomes clear that there is no reason why countries cannot share a currency without sharing a government.

Belgium and Luxembourg:
OK, they're both small. But the point remains.

France and the 'Convertible Franc':
Interesting one this, and one which I don't know as much as I should. (Reminder, read books on the subject.) France's ex-colonial 'possesions' in Africa share/shared with their previous overlord, a semi-convertible currency, even as 'colonial ties' were being increasinly relaxed. No greater disparity between the (predominantly) African economies of the former colonies and their erstwhile masters can be imagined. Yet, these countries regarded the convertible franc as the one beneficial legacy of colonialism.

I don't know how this has changed since the 'creation' of the Euro. Nor can I point to any noted economic successes in Africa. (Although, I would say - largely without any hard evidence - they have done no worse than peers.) So, it is not necessarily a great example.

BUT - they do go some way to demonstrate that a 'sovreign federal' body is hardly a necessity to a working currency.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[Menthos]

Since when should the ASCII chart decide what a new currency symbol should be? The ASCII chart is not more than a mediocre excuse for a character table that lacked a lot of needed characters even when it was new, and has been unmodern ever since. It doesn't even include all characters needed for English! Replace with a Unicode character set as soon as possible wherever possible, if you have the chance.

Also, usually all characters already have a defined meaning. Adding an additional meaning to a character would most likely only cause confusion. Clearly a new symbol has its place, it's after all one of the world's most powerful currencies. If you question why Euro needs its own symbol, you should also ask yourself why the US Dollar or the British Pound need their own symbols.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[MtViewGuy]

I think at the rate the North American economy is going (especially with the introduction of NAFTA), we may get a currency that has something akin to the Euro within 10-14 years.

Imagine something called the North American Dollar, which replaces the US Dollar, Canadian Dollar, Mexican Peso, and every local national currency in Central America and the Caribbean. The $100, $50, $20, $10, $5 and $1 bills will be truly multi-colored with architectural and landscape scenes from North America, Central America and the Caribbean, and $1, 50 cents, 25 cents, 10 cents, 5 cents and 1 cent coins will have representations of famous people from North American, Central American and Caribbean history. The paper bills regardless of denomination will be sized the same as the current US dollar.

The Euro is actually a pretty interesting concept in theory, though there are still question marks about how it will affect the various national economies of Europe over the next 15 years.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[piecewise]

That's just because OUR currency is the only currency really WORTH being counterfeitted.

;-)

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[snake_dad]

The Pound doesn't need its own symbol. The brits should use EUR (or ) too. :P

<duck>

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[mpe]

Actually those look really cool.. I wonder why the US keeps this drab, slashdot theme with the currency..

One of the most unusual things about the US doller is how all the paper currency is the same size and colour scheme. (though at least the more recent issues have metal strips in different places.)

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[PurpleBob]

Or, for something more amusing, this.

http://www.milk.com/wall-o-shame/two_dollars.html.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[uebernewby]

IIRC, one of the reasons why the Dutch guy "lost" was that his design couldn't be manufactured in each country - some printing firms simply were unable to produce each and every one of the anti-counterfeiting measures put in his designs. Which is why euro bills are way more secure than their dollar counterparts, but still very unsafe compared to recent Dutch bills.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[sphealey]

Labour, goods, and capital move freely, so when one part of the Eurozone becomes undervalued investors should come in and snap up the bargains.

Not based on my experience. (US) Americans do have a tendency to stay close to where they grew up, like all people, but if push comes to shove and the Midwest economy (say) goes down the tubes, Americans will pick up and move from Illinois to Texas, California, Washington State, or wherever jobs can be found. I have a very hard time picturing the average Brit picking up and moving to Greece because more jobs are available there.

sPh

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[ZigMonty]

A pound is worth more than a US dollar.

Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[gorilla]

The US Dollar doesn't have it's own symbol. The $ sign can mean US Dollars, Canadian Dollars, or Australian Dollars.

We can...

[EnglishTim]

We can get jobs in other Euro-zone coutries. We have been able to for some time, even though (here in Britain) we have not opted to become part of the single currency.

Re:We can...

[ostiguy]

How many unemployed farmers from Southern Italy have moved to Ireland during the celtic tiger's boom?

See, just because you *legally* can, doesn't mean that there aren't significant cultural barriers impeding the free flow of labor across borders. The US, as a integrated currency zone for comparative purposes, have far fewer limitations.

ostiguy

Re:We can...

[singularity]

So, by the same analogy, a lot of unemployed farmers in the Midwest and auto-workers in the Great Lakes area moved and now make up Silicon Valley?

And with NAFTA, a lot of high-tech industries suddenly moved south of the U.S.-Mexico border to take advantage of cheaper labor?

There are other factors to consider when you talk about people moving for jobs.

In addition, we have the same problems in the U.S. Coming from the South (U.S.), for example, I find that a lot of people have an aversion to moving "up East" (Northeast/New England) or "out West" (California, etc.) because of culture.

Re:We can...

[ostiguy]

I did not refer to industry - I simply referred to people moving from one place to another, which is exactly was does happen every day in the US. Massachusetts has lost at least two US Congressional seats in the last 20 years because people are moving southernly and westernly. NY state has lost at least 3 house seats from redistricting after the 90 and 2000 censuses.

I am afraid that there is a wealth of evidence that supports my position re: US migratory patterns. Americans are in fact willing to move and do so at a pretty regular clip.

ostiguy

Re:We can...

[_ganja_]

I'm British but live in Holland right now but I still have to go with ostiguy on this one. Moving around in europe is no where near as easy as it is in the states for one simple reason, the language barriers. Yes, people do speak English and this is especially true of most the working population in Holland but a lot of companies still operate mainly in Dutch hence, job advertisiments require Dutch speakers. In comparison, you never see job ads in the states "must have New York accent".

Re:We can...

[clare-ents]

On the other hand, having to go to Holland for three weeks for a client visit left me obtaining a replacement passport in three hours to go to work and the two indian group members huddled in the cold infront of the embassy waiting for a work visa for which they applied six weeks ago.

Work forces are already becoming more mobile across countries now. If you wish to work in a different country it's now quite easy to do so - at least for short periods of time.

Re:We can...

[gorilla]

But there are jobs in the US where you have to be a Spanish speaker or an English speaker.

conversion

[qqtortqq]

1 euro is equal to the following: Austrian Schillings = 13.7603 Belgian Francs = 40.3399 Dutch Guilders = 2.20371 Finnish Markka = 5.94573 French Francs = 6.55957 German Marks = 1.95583 Greek Drachmas = 340.750 Irish Pound (Púnt) = 0.787564 Italian Lira = 1936.27 Luxembourg Francs = 40.3399 Portugese Escudo = 200.482 Spanish Pesetas = 166.386

Are we becoming like star trek?

[alen]

First we have international trade and monetary agreements like nafta, european union, european common market and the upcoming north and south america trade zone. How far away are we from a one world federal union? Europe is already moving to a common legislature and and some common agencies like approving corporate mergers.

I think in the next 20 years as trade zones evolve we will see the union of trade zones until there is true free world trade. Then in our lifetimes we may see the start of a common world government.

Re:Are we becoming like star trek?

[Cato]

I've just read Non-Zero, by Robert Wright, which explains how the size of groupings has grown over the millenia (from hunter-gatherer bands to villages, chiefdoms, kingdoms and now nation states) - this is all driven by the benefits of cooperating with other groups for the purposes of hunting, farming, trade, etc, and by the need to defend or attack others by allying with nearby groups. His approach is to apply game theory (zero-sum vs. non-zero sum games) and a scientific outlook to explaining the big picture of history - as someone who hated history at school for its arbitrariness, I find this 'unified theory' approach very appealing. See www.nonzero.org for the author's website, which includes excerpts from most chapters.

The nation state is a relatively recent invention (about 500 years old) - since there are various free trade areas that are similar to the earlier stages of what is now the European Union (e.g. the Gulf Cooperation Council is a free-trade area that plans to have a single currency in 2010), it's not unreasonable to expect many nation states to be subsumed into something close to a 'world government'. Clearly this is something that must be done right (a despotic world government would be far worse than a similar national government, which is normally removed indirectly or directly by competition from freer nations that develop much faster), but some form of closer world governance (not necessarily a government) is probably essential to combat bioterrorism (e.g. alliances for highly detailed investigations into bioterror suspects), global warming, slave trading, abuse of workers, etc.

Re:Are we becoming like star trek?

[Cato]

The US and all other industrialised countries are highly interdependent with poorer countries, for trade reasons and more importantly because technology and suicide terrorism has made it possible for terrorists to inflict huge casualties on developed countries at a very low cost. Read www.nonzero.org - the book on which this site is based was written before Sept 11, and included the prediction that by 2020 a terrorist will be able to kill 50,000 people in a Western city using bioterrorism. Because we are so interdependent with developing countries, we simply have to pay attention to reducing the pool of disaffected haters of the US and other developing countries - only by reducing the support for terrorism will we reduce the frequency of such acts. Of course, you also need to go after the terrorists themselves, but in a way that doesn't further increase their support (see the essay about how many Afghan civilian casualties are acceptable in US eyes...).

By the way, Britain is part of the EU and is going to join the Euro in the next few years - we have no alternative really, given that inward investment is already beginning to divert to the Euro zone for economic reasons. I don't think it makes any sense for the US to join the EU, but it's quite possible that NAFTA will deepen to become somewhat like the EU, and perhaps add Latin American members as well.

Sovereign nations were invented about 500 years ago - before that, we had city states. There's no reason why they can't be (largely) superseded by larger groupings, though IMO the nation state will survive in some form for a long time, as part of supranational groupings. The protection of human rights in the US comes from the constitution, but also from the courts throwing out unconstitutional laws (which doesn't seem to be happening with recent anti-terrorism legislation). The EU has its own Human Rights legislation and a court dedicated to such cases - by joining the EU and adopting this legislation, the UK (which has no written constitution) has actually improved the human rights position for its citizens. I'm not a big fan of the EU (it tends to be overly bureaucratic, typical 'big government') but it is economically sensible and overall is doing a reasonable job.

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[fidget42]

I agree 150%. In the US, we have problems where states compete against each other for business and the political backlash that causes (S. Carolina gives incentives to pull corporations from Verginia, etc.). Here, there is a stable overseeing government to keep things civil, but the EC does not have that sort of power. I expect the next five years to be very uncomfortable in Europe as nationalism gets entered into the equasion.

It's actually...

[root_42]

...hex 0xA4 or 164 decimal. And it's not really ASCII but it's part of the ISO 8859-15 character set. That's also what you've got to tell all your X11 applications. And you must have ISO 8859-15 aware fonts installed, which is the case with recent Linux distribution (e.g. SuSE 7.3 is fully Euro enabled).

Different versions of the Euro...

[wavecentral]

Interestingly enough, each member of the EU has a series of euro coins for their own countries. Sort of like how the US has produced quarters for different states. It's quite nice and still perserves the autonomy.

Also, an interesting note, is that the EU states will still need to produce their own stamps but put them in the EURO currency pricing, which will be nice for collectors and more autonomy.

FYI, I was over in Germany for three weeks and spoke to a couple of folks about how they viewed the EURO. Alot of the older folks were worried about how non-assest items will be valued. For example, appraisals. Something that use to be appraised for 5.500 DM, will it be assessed at 2,811 EUROS come a couple months down the road?

Re:Different versions of the Euro...

[mindstrm]

How does it preserve autonomy? It lulls people into a perception that the currency is 'local' to their country; nothing more.

The euro means the economies of the member states are regulated as a whole, not individually.

I, for one, am thankful I got the opportunity to spend some Pesetas and Escudos, and Punts before the Euro was brought in. The different currencies really were one of the beautiful and wonderful things about travelling through europe.

Now, of course, the euro WILL make travelling easier.

Re:Different versions of the Euro...

[j7953]

Interestingly enough, each member of the EU has a series of euro coins for their own countries. Sort of like how the US has produced quarters for different states. It's quite nice and still perserves the autonomy.

Yes. I got some euro coins in december already (so-called "starter kits"), and they all show "German" symbols on the backside: an acorn leaf, the Brandenburg Gate, and the Bundesadler (federal eagle). The front is the same all over europe.

I had hoped to see at least some "foreign" coins in the starter kit. But on the other hand, now I am looking forward to getting some of the other coins over time.

Something that use to be appraised for 5.500 DM, will it be assessed at 2,811 EUROS

I guess you meant 5500 DM, not 5 point 5 DM? Yes, that's now 2812.11 EUR. But what's wrong about that? Over time, things will adapt to the new currency, e.g. the appraisal might become 2800 EUR or 2850 EUR.

One nice effect is that most of the tresholds for taxes etc. have been adapted to nice-looking numbers to the benefit of the taxpayer (at least in Germany).

Re:Different versions of the Euro...

[rbeattie]

About traveling, basically you're fucking nuts.

You LIKED getting ripped off at change booths as you entered and left each country? Getting nailed with both a fee and percentage? You liked getting stuck with spare coins from one country that no-one will change in any other country and thus is transformed instantly into stamped scrap metal? Or do you like going from the Drachma with it's low-numbered system to the Lira where a 1,000,000 liras is about $500? You'd be traveling through a country and just about get a hang of the money just as you're leaving - but not before getting ripped off by any and every small merchant and taxi driver who knows you don't know the local system. This appeals to you somehow? Or admit it, you just liked the pretty pictures. Ooooh, gee! Look! The Francs look like they're colored with crayons. Golly.

Fuck that. Travelling through Europe will be much better without this hassle. Get back to the real world, hey?

-Russ

Re:Different versions of the Euro...

[j7953]

I knew that, but the original poster wrote "5.500 DM" and "2,811 EUROS," i.e. he mixed the two conventions. That's why I asked.

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[nchip]

When the factories in Detroit lay people off they can move to Dallas, LA, etc. But when people are layed off in Paris they won't be able to chase jobs to Berlin.

uh. labor CAN move freely within EU. try learning facts of the world outside USA before bashing. could be enlightening exprience.

Xenophobia and pig headedness ?

[MosesJones]

Is one answer, there are others, our economy is out of step with that of Europe, we have very different tax rules.

But IMO as a Brit the real reason is that we hate the fact that someone else came up with a better idea. Personally I can't wait to use the Euro in the UK as then it will make getting a mortgage or a loan from A.N. Other country much easier and I can pick the rates in a much more competative way.

The next few years should be great for the UK as we aren't going into recession (touch wood) so we'll hopefully steal a march. We could steal a much bigger march as the strongest fish in the Euro.

Re:Xenophobia and pig headedness ?

[SerpentMage]

Me as a German and having lived in the UK, I thank God that there are Brits in the EU. Because without the Brits the EU would have gone to hell in hand-basket. Sure the Brits sometimes challenge too much. But very often the Brits are a sounding board of reason. If the EU were mainly run by Germany and France there would be NO EU!!!!

So maybe this with the Brits sitting it out may be a funny thing. But eventually things will be different. Until then the EU would do well to listen more often to the Brits...

Re:Xenophobia and pig headedness ?

[SerpentMage]

Again let me re-iterate that I am German who is a French wanna-be. And I love my EU counterparts with all heart... BUT the following could be said.

Well if the EU were a vehicle and the individual members in the car we'd have the following:

1) Germans steering the vehicle saying "We are Germans our cars are meant for high speed and we can handle the curves. It vill work alvays."
2) Italians stepping on the gas peddle saying "Speed is in our blood, faster is better"
3) French every now and then stepping on the clutch in full speed saying "Philosphically we are the cultural backbone of the union and hence stepping on the clutch makes it possible to assess whether or not the car is driving in the right direction on the correct road in the proper weather conditions that are best for fostering a cooperative system of interacting people at a higher plane of conditioning" (if you understand that you must be French ;) ) 4) The spaniard would constantly be fiddling with the rear view mirror and asking "Do I look good, is my hair in the right order?"
5) The Finn would twiddle with the onboard GPS system equipped with GPRS, RDS, CD, MP3 and proudly say "Hey guys no idea where we are, but guess what I just sent an SMS to my buddy in Sweden stating we are somewhere in Europe"
6) The Greek would be relegated to the trunk of the car and while the car is parked will have changed summer tires to winter tires, filled the gas tank, and checked the oil. Afterwards the rest of the troup asks why the Greek did not refill the windshield wiper fluid and moan at how critical it was that they have a filled windshield wiper fluid tank.
7) The Irish will be neatly dressed and organized and ready to rock and roll. But then moan out load that the Dutch is smoking pot beside him.
8) And finally the Brit seeing this mess of people decides to join the bunch "because it seems like the right thing to do and we would not want to stand out of the crowd". But realizing the mess takes control of the key turns off the car "yelling there is a bloody curve that cannot be handled at 300 KPH" and yet everybody looks blankly at the Brit as if the Brit came from another planet...

Sorry for not including the others, but I ran out of time...

Re:Xenophobia and pig headedness ?

[spectecjr]

The next few years should be great for the UK as we aren't going into recession (touch wood) so we'll hopefully steal a march.

According to every single one of my friends and family members, the UK is already *in* a recession. Which is why I'm trying to find a job in the US instead of just giving up and going home.

Simon

Re:Xenophobia and pig headedness ?

[sql*kitten]

But IMO as a Brit the real reason is that we hate the fact that someone else came up with a better idea. Personally I can't wait to use the Euro in the UK as then it will make getting a mortgage or a loan from A.N. Other country much easier and I can pick the rates in a much more competative way.

The problem with that argument is that the Euro makes no economic sense at all, it's a purely political decision. Look at Greece and Germany: one's economy is more about agriculture and tourism, ones is about manufacturing and heavy industry. Can a single monetary policy suit both?

Germany's unemployment is rising, and they are going into recession. What's the Bundesbank doing to help? Nothing, there is no Bundesbank any more! Low interest rates are fuelling inflation in Ireland (which is in trouble with the EU over its deficit) and Holland - where are their central banks? There aren't any!

What good does a low mortgage rate do you, Mr Andersen, if you don't have a job?

In Britain, we have a hard enough time setting an economic policy that even worked in both the North and South of England. Look at the events in Argentina, that is a graphic illustration of what happens when a weak currency is forced into alignment with a strong one.

The ECB is going to be faced with a choice sooner or later, a monetary policy that favors Germany and France (leading to rebellion in the South) or one which tries to compromise, leading to rebellion in the North. But we shall see.

We could steal a much bigger march as the strongest fish in the Euro.

That simply isn't true. For example, the UK has an independent voice at the IMF and World Bank - all 12 Euro nations share a single seat. The UK is the 4th largest economy in the world - no one suggests that Canada needs to merge with the US to survive, do they?

The Euro is a political tool for an eventual federal superstate. Whether you feel that would be a good or bad thing, you must at least admit it.

the coin route

[Stone Rhino]

Its interesting to see that they issued a 1 euro coin from the start, as canada does with its dollar, rather than attempting to introduce a coin later, as the united states has unsuccessfully tried to do again and again with first the silver dollar and then the golden dollar.
Since 1 euro coins are likely to see more circulation than larger denominations, it makes sense to use coins, because coins will last longer and so have lower replacement costs.

Re:the coin route

[mindstrm]

Regarding the 'unsuccesful' attempt to release a coin in the US.
To release a $1 coin successfully, all you have to do is... drumrolll please... make coins, and stop making $1 bills. Period. Instant success.

Silver dollar? Golden dollar? What were these? Actually putting $1 worth of gold in the mix for the coin? Or are you referring to something else.

Re:the coin route

[BluBrick]

To release a $1 coin successfully, all you have to do is... drumrolll please... make coins, and stop making $1 bills. Period. Instant success.

That's exactly how it happened here in .au with the 1 and 2 dollar coins, and surprise, surprise... It works!

That's also what we did with the plastic notes (that's right, our "paper" money is actually printed on plastic film). No biggie. Numismatists took care of keeping some of the better condition paper notes out of circulation, and the reserve bank took care of the rest. It's all still legal tender, but I haven't seen a paper note for about 3 years now.

Changing the physical implementation of currency is easy. Changing the currency itself would be a major PITA. I've never experienced it myself, being far too young to even know about money when .au went from pounds to dollars in 1966.

Re:the coin route

[mindstrm]

Yes.. I'm Canadian, I was there....
Yes, it's a pain. Sure, everyone whined about it. Sure people say 'Look at all this change'.

The reality, though.. is this.
Everyone gets by; it's not really an inconvenience, and it saves the country money.
It's mostly psychological.

Better for the government becuase of longevity? That means better for the taxpayer, as it costs less.

As for saying 'Poeple here have never had a prevalent $1 coin'.. well.. of course not. We never had one in Canada either, until the day we dropped the bill and used the Loonie.

Yes.. people would go out of their way to reqeust bills.. that's out of a neurotic compulsion to keep things the same. In the end, though, there are no more $1 bills. And lots of loonies.

As for pockets full of change.. I find I have no more or less change because of the loonie. If it's in my pocket after one transaction, it's gone at the next.

Re:the coin route

[mindstrm]

Exactly.
It's just money, whatever form it's in.

I will say.. I do miss paper money..

I have coworkers from venezuela.. where, up until recently, there were no coins (or nobody used them). THe smallest denomination bill was worth something like a penny or two. Consequently, you tended to have huge piles of cash around.

Re:the coin route

[Hobbex]

Actually nowhere do people have as much change in their pockets all the time as in the US, because merchants in America set their prices without adding VAT, so you are always paying prices like $1.08 because the advertised price was rounded to $1, wheeras elsewhere the prices are rounded off with the VAT already added. Compared to that, the move from dollar notes to coins is negligable.

Re:the coin route

[spudnic]

That's why I don't like the $1 coins. It makes me feel like I don't have any money, just change. I know the value is the same, but it's a huge psychological difference. It devalues the dollar in the American psyche.

I could have $2 in change scattered on the floor of my bedroom, but that dollar in my wallet just feels more valuable.

.

Re:the coin route

[InigoMontoya(tm)]

In the end, though, there are no more $1 bills. And lots of loonies.

Well, that's Canada in a nutshell right there.

(ducking thrown CN tower)

Hey, it was only a joke!

InigoMontoya(tm)

Re:the coin route

[weave]

Amen to that. I live in Delaware with no sales tax. Most prices are set in even multiples of .05. Everytime I go out of state, I end up with a pocket full of useless change and shit loads of pennies. I never have that problem in my home state.

It's a real pain.

Re:the coin route

[DerekLyons]

Its interesting to see that they issued a 1 euro coin from the start, as canada does with its dollar, rather than attempting to introduce a coin later, as the united states has unsuccessfully tried to do again and again with first the silver dollar and then the golden dollar.

Actually the US has had a dollar coin in circulation as public tender for decades if not centuries. The issue isn't the goverment, but lack of public acceptance.

Another poster writes:
Regarding the 'unsuccesful' attempt to release a coin in the US.
To release a $1 coin successfully, all you have to do is... drumrolll please... make coins, and stop making $1 bills. Period. Instant success.

Right, if you choose to ignore the extensive economic costs of changing * millions * of cash handling systems across the country, from something as humble as the cash drawer at my small store to extensive installations in Mints, Amusement Parks, Grocery stores and other places that handles coins by the ton everyday.

Re:the coin route

[epsalon]

Here in Israel, we have 10NIS ~ $2.70 coins, that were introduced several years ago. There is no problem using these larger denomination coins. You don't keep your change in your pocket, you keep it in your wallet because it's real money. Then, you can always pay with a coin.

Re:the coin route

[Tachys]

In Australia they have a $2 dollar coin that is actually smaller then their $1 dollar coin.

This is annoying because you don't think you have much money because it is small change, but find they a $2 coins so you are actually rich

Re:the coin route

[gorilla]

Right, if you choose to ignore the extensive economic costs of changing * millions * of cash handling systems across the country,

Almost everyone doesn't need to do any changes. For those few who do, the costs are easily countered by the cost of maintaining bill readers on vending machines, which are very unreliable compared to coin readers.

Re:the coin route

[DerekLyons]

Almost everyone doesn't need to do any changes.

Oh? Only those businesses that don't handle cash.. Oh, right, that is the vast majority of businesses.

For those few who do, the costs are easily countered by the cost of maintaining bill readers on vending machines, which are very unreliable compared to coin readers

Oh? The cost of replacing my cashboxes will countered by reducing maintenance costs on something I don't own? Oh, right, you don't realize that there are businesses other than vending machines...

How does devaluing happen now??

[thesolo]

I just have one question about this switch--since they are all using the same currency, how does the currency become devalued in one country?

All of these countries have different values to their money; some of them are currently very strong, and others are currently very weak. So what happens to your Euro when you go from say Ireland to Italy? Do they just inflate/deflate the price of goods/services to compensate?

I'm honestly not sure how it will work, since there is no longer a currency exchange between these countries. Is it just me, or does this seem like it's not the brightest idea on the surface??

Re:How does devaluing happen now??

[ostiguy]

All of these countries do not have different values to their currencies - exchange rates have been fixed against the Euro since jan 1 99, IIRC. The Euro is supposed to help price transparency, ie, comparing apples in italy to apples in france.

ostiguy

Re:How does devaluing happen now??

[markj02]

It's no different from the different states in the US: people, goods, and services can move freely among different states, but their laws and the economy are still different.

Re:How does devaluing happen now??

[Derwen]

It's no different from the different states in the US: people, goods, and services can move freely among different states, but their laws and the economy are still different.

Not, alas, the laws.
If I am resident in, say Kansas, and wanted in, say, Texas for an act that is illegal in Texas but not Kansas, I will not be deported by the good officials of Kansas.
However if I live in Britain, France or Ireland I can be deported from there for something not illegal there (such as criticising the Church) to another eu state such as Greece or Italy.

It should be noted that no one in any european state voted for such measures - but then most Germans were against the Euro currency. Europe is separated from democracy by more than the odd chad :-/
- Derwen

Re:How does devaluing happen now??

[psicic]

However if I live in Britain, France or Ireland I can be deported from there for something not illegal there (such as criticising the Church) to another eu state such as Greece or Italy.

From Ireland at least, you would not be deported. IANAL, but I do know that Ireland will not usually extradite on acts that aren't crimes in Ireland, reserves the right not to extradite if the potential punishment is too harsh by standards of Irish law or if there is no chance of 'due process' and will most certainly use extradition cases to their full political potential. They will also not extradite if there is a possiblity of the violation of the human rights of an individual or their rights provided for under the Irish constitution.
That's why there are growing murmurs of dissent in Ireland with regards to the European arrest warrant. This effectively allows unilateral extradition at a federal(re: Union-wide) level. We don't have an extradition treaty with many countries - including the USA - for many well-articulated(by political pundits) reasons...Now all of a sudden extradition warrants can be 'handed-down' to member states?

It all reeks of efforts at a political unification that no population was ever polled on(yes we did vote to join the then EEC - an economic community). Ironically, I have no doubt that Ireland would join a political unity given a few provisos; Primarially that the politico's power-houses in Europe didn't get their way and dismiss Ireland as merely a peripheral concern constantly. But pehaps the people of Ireland and Europe aren't worth the concern of consultation. Perhaps a truely democratic meeting out of power would disrupt plans to centralise power...perhaps I'm straying too far off-topic and treading nervously on the boarders of being anti-EU.
In my opinion, a federal Commission(that's Senate to all you non-EU people out there) should be based on a system similar to the current one where the bigger countries would get two commissioners while the smaller countries would get one. Which mould the European parliament should be cast in is a little more involved and there are many arguments out there for the vying opinions. Hey, I'm open to convincing.
I'm just a little concerned. When we were presented with the Amsterdam Treaty, the anti-EU lobby said we were eroding our(Ireland's) policy of military neutrality - our politicans assured us that the purpose of the treaty was to allow for bureaucratic change at EU level and the parts regarding the military were vitually inconsequential for the Irish state - we would remain neutral, not participate in an EU army without a referendum and so on. Since we voted in the Amsterdam Treaty, we have pledged 1,100 troops to the EU rapid reaction force(a substantial part of what is, truthfully, an inconsequential army) without consulting the Irish people and we have been upgraded from 'neutral', thru 'former-neutral' into the ranks of 'allied nation' in NATO and US military rankings.
It gets me, that's all. I know politicans lie, cheat and steal - that's what we pay them for. But it still gets me, especially with all the media-whores fawning around these people like they're heroes and heroines: Why politicans want to rewrite what the people of most member states signed up to is beyond me - why they are determined to do so without consulting the populace is verging on the fraudlant in my estimation.
(by-the-by, I would vote "Yes" to a Federal Europe but not on the grounds of the thinking of the current politicos in Europe...)

8)

Norway? Huh?

[filtersweep]

Last I checked Norway was NOT on the list (and proud of it)- they didn't join the EU- probably because they can do whatever they want with just a few million people to share all that North Sea oil (they have several thousand "dollars" of oil per person sitting in reserve). The rest of the Scandanavian countries are also conspicously missing (no one actually considers Finland to be Scandanavian).

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[Lemmy Caution]

What are you talking about? What restrictions on moving and working in other European countries are you refering to?

One of the advantages that Europe has is that language and culture maintain national entities in such a way as to resist the "winner take all" scenario, in which all the educated professionals move to a tiny handful of economic supercenters. Economic growth can be distributed geographically more in Europe, but it has nothing to do with any restrictions on travel.

One of the ironies of economic popular wisdom in the 90's is apparent by the fact that Brazil, with its protectionist policies, is doing reasonably well, while Argentina, which did almost everything the IMF and the US banking establishment told it to it, is about to go toes-up. The Argentine disaster could spell the end of WTO-styled globalism far more than the protests of Seattle etc. ever could

How the coins look

[sekra]

The coins of the different countries have different pictures on their back. Follow this link for an overview of the back sides of the euro coins.

Euro for Debian

[Outlyer]

For those of you lucky enough to be running Debian, it was announced yesterday that Euro support is available. The announcement is here: http://www.debian.org/News/2001/20011231
And the HOWTO is here: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-euro-supp ort/

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

LaTeX and HTML fonts

[Paul the Bold]

I did a quick search on Google, and found this site that explains how you might get the symbol to appear. It's not ASCII, but it is part of unicode 2.1.

The page claims that if you are using LaTeX 2e, \usepackage{textcomp} gets the right character set, and \texteuro gets the symbol. I tried it, and it works.

Now, does anybody know how to get the American symbol for cents?

Re:LaTeX and HTML fonts

[Paul the Bold]

Sorry, I meant sign in LaTeX, not HTML.

Issues with the euro in day-to-day life

[Xouba]

Well, being one of the 300 million affected, I just thought that I could karma whore a little and get an "informative" mod by telling you (the non-european or non-affected-even-if-european people) a few issues that arise in real life with this change :-) Let's hope not to be another of a million messages about this O:-)

• First, I suppose that you don't really imagine what this change means for every Joe European's day-to-day life. In Spain, 1 euro is 166.386 pesetas. There's a few rough equivalences, like 6 euro = 1000 pesetas, but anyway it's quite tricky to know, for example, how many euros are 135 pesetas, or how many pesetas are 4.27 euros. And many people (me, at least) need to know that equivalences in the first days, to make an idea about what you are paying.
• Given this difficulties, every government has tried its best to inform every citizen about the equivalences, how to use the euro ... and has made available a kind of "calculators" that consist in a little plastic piece that shows euros and their equivalences in the local currency, to be used by everyone. They're pretty cool, if someone is able to take a photo of any and post it, please do :-)
• The devil is in the details, as they say, and in this case the devil is in the rounding. As I said, 6 euros are roughly 1000 pesetas. But that's not exact: 6.01 is more precise. This doesn't mean anything in "cheap" things, but if you're going to buy a car ... There's a lot of concern about the way that commerces are going to apply rounding, as many think that they're going to raise prices to make them more "euro-compliant".
• Most of the prices were already both in euros and local currency since months ago, so everyone could make an idea about what prices were going to be like in euros (a cinema ticket is about 4 euros in "spectator's day", for example). But anyway, in my personal experience, nobody looked at the prices in euros, so the impact of this measure is, for me, doubtful :-) Anyway, bussiness have to work in euros from now on, and most of them were already prepared when year's end came.
• There's no 25 cents coin. Someone tell me why, because I don't understand it. Specially since a coffe here is about 125 pesetas, which is roughly 0.75 euro. We've got 2 and 20 cents coins, but anyway, I don't know why there're no 25 cents coins.
• As someone already said, the coins are pretty cool :-) A few of them are in two colors, and have a face with a local design and the other with a common european one.

• There's more, but I don't recall anything specially interesting now, so let's hope that another one with a better english and memory can say something more fulfilling ;-)

Re:Issues with the euro in day-to-day life

[mindstrm]

The change to Joe European's every day life is not that big a deal.
It's not different than the change one goes through spending a year travelling around Europe.

As for buying a car.. if someone buys a car without doing some *careful* calculations, he deserves to get stung. C'mon.. this is simple math.

No 25 cent coins... you are just used to having 25s.. that's all. PRices will adjust to whatver is easy for everyone.

As for coins.. here in Costa Rica, there are so many denominations.
The base unit is the Colone
340 colones = US$1
It devaluates at about 1.5%/month

the coins:
1(not too common), 2(not too common), 5(2 kinds), 10(2 kinds), 20(2 kinds), 25, 50, 100, 500(very uncommon)

The coins with 2 kinds, there are smaller, gold colored fat coins, and thinner, silver coins, with a larger diameter.
SO you end up with a rediculous amount of currency in your pocket.
Most people round to the nearest 5 or 10 colones for convenience.. 1 & 2 colone coins are not that common.
Technically, they have cents too (100 to the colone), but they only show up on paper.

Re:Issues with the euro in day-to-day life

[Rob Kaper]

And many people (me, at least) need to know that equivalences in the first days, to make an idea about what you are paying.

No, no, no. Don't calculate back to pesetas, francs and guilders for the rest of your natural lifes.

Write down twenty things that you often buy: a weeks worth groceries, CDs, DVDs, whatever. Write down a resonable price in your old currency. Convert. Learn and remember the new decent euro price.

Instead of calculating back to guilders whenever I buy a DVD, I will have remembered that ?25 to ?30 is a reasonable price. That is by far the easiest way to get used to the new currency.

Re:Issues with the euro in day-to-day life

[Pulzar]

As for buying a car.. if someone buys a car without doing some *careful* calculations, he deserves to get stung. C'mon.. this is simple math.

It's not the problem with math, it's the problem with rounding. Say the car used to cost 500,000 in the old currency, and converted to euros, that's equal to 39,173. To make the price more euro-friendly, the car dealership will round the price to 39,500 or 40,000, not 39,000. Therefore, the price of the car is likely to go up just because of the currency change.

That's what people are worried about, anyway.

Re:Issues with the euro in day-to-day life

[Sentry21]

I can't speak for the poster, but in Canada, every theatre I've ever been to (and I've been to a lot) has matinees until about 5 PM every day, as well as a 'matinee day' - a two-for-one day, a day where all prices are matinee prices, or something of that sort.

Perhaps this is to what s/he was referring.

--Dan

Re:Issues with the euro in day-to-day life

[Menthos]

The goverments didn't understand rounding when they locked down the rates...

I do think they understand it very well. Rounding should always be done in the last step, e.g in the consumer-retailer chain with the individual prices, not the first step which in this case was the currency fixating inbetween the 12 Euroland currencies. The earlier you introduce rounding, the more impact it has. If the Euroland currencies' values would have been rounded to the Euro, the national economies and trade would have been greatly affected. Just skipping some decimals would increase or decrease the national debts and expenses and budget and export incomes and whatnot and cause economic unbalances, the greater the rounding. And roundings would have to be great in some cases, and all this for a questionable gain in currency transition. Remember that this is a transition, not an ongoing conversion, so artificially increasing national debts and possibly reducing profitability for export industries just for some additional one-time ease in the human transition is questionable. Computers and pocket currency converters can handle this easily, and the governments also have provided cheap pocket currency converters en masse to people for the last year.

Most prices are set so they have a nice psychological point. This is why cars in the US are adversied as $19,999 and not 20 grand. Without a E$.25 coin, the price of coffee isn't going to .75 but will soon go to 1.00.

Yes, and the danger of new psychologigal prices in fact making things more expensive has been greatly discussed. This is why shops have been required to also list all prices in Euros for the last year, even if the Euro wasn't available back then. Even if this probably doesn't eliminate price increases, it probably limits them somewhat since the people who noted the previous prices in Euros will notice if they suddenly are "rounded up" to a psychologically attractive price, and put pressure on the shops.

Re:Issues with the euro in day-to-day life

[csbruce]

* There's no 25 cents coin. Someone tell me why, because I don't understand it. Specially since a coffe here is about 125 pesetas, which is roughly 0.75 euro. We've got 2 and 20 cents coins, but anyway, I don't know why there're no 25 cents coins.

It looks like they went full-tilt with the 1-2-5 paradigm: 0.01, 0.02, 0.05; 0.10, 0.20, 0.50; 1.00, 2.00, 5.00; 10.00, 20.00, 50.00; 100.00, 200.00, 500.00.

Buy anything in America and you get a fist-full of ones.

* As someone already said, the coins are pretty cool :-) A few of them are in two colors, and have a face with a local design and the other with a common european one.

Canada has a bi-metalic $2.00 coin.

Re:Issues with the euro in day-to-day life

[orabidoo]

another spaniard here... and i totally agree with your last point: where is the 25 cent coin?? i won't miss the peseta (or the french franc, or any other dead currency), but i really think 25c is a better mount than 20c for a coin. another gripe: the euro's set of coins is way too granular. there are coins of 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 and 200 cents. for the same range, they could have just had 1, 5, 25, 100, 200; it's easy enough to handle arbitrary amounts, and it would have simplified everyone's life by remembering only 5 coins instead of 8.

Coming from a store owner...

[snellac]

I own a chain of stores here in London, and after several meetings with lower management, we have decided to not accept the Euro currency in favor of the pound from foreigners. We came to this conclusion for several reasons, which make both economic and political sense for a store dealing mainly in jewlery such as ourselves.

• The Euro costs us £0.50 to exchange for every transaction made. That's right, the banks charge us to convert our money back into pounds! They don't charge at the consumer level, just merchant to merchant, so we mandate consumers do this on their own, or pay via another means.
• The new anti-counterfeit measures contained in the Euro. This may seem like a good thing, but the larger Euro demoniations contain coils electromagnetically charged to a certain serial number. This can thus be tracked, and as much as consumers are worried about their privacy, merchants are worried about ours in respect to competitors.
• The attitude here in London is mostly anti-Euro, as Brits object to this new prospect of a continental government. We've been independent for this long, and under no means do we want to be governed by someone higher than the Parliament
• The conversion rates fluctuate constantly. What's to say that one day, we charge 500 for a gold ring, and then going to the bank to exchange it, it's then worth 90% of that? That's lost money to us. We can't afford to be dealing in currency fluctuations. Both the pound and the US Dollar are stable enough to be dealing with, but I won't put my corporation's trust into the Euro.

Businesses like mine are doing the same thing. I can't find a single business here in London Square willing to redeem Euros for face value. So, when you come to London, be sure to bring your plastic, or redeem it for pounds.

-snellac

Re:Coming from a store owner...

[Sanity]

The new anti-counterfeit measures contained in the Euro. This may seem like a good thing, but the larger Euro demoniations contain coils electromagnetically charged to a certain serial number. This can thus be tracked, and as much as consumers are worried about their privacy, merchants are worried about ours in respect to competitors.

Er no they don't, didn't you see the article here just a few days ago about how they were considering doing this, but didn't expect to see it before 2006?

The attitude here in London is mostly anti-Euro, as Brits object to this new prospect of a continental government.

Speak for yourself, there are many in the UK who are pro-Euro.

We've been independent for this long, and under no means do we want to be governed by someone higher than the Parliament

Such as, um, the WTO? Or perhaps the US government who seems to be making the decisions about how the UK uses its military these days?

This is such a short sighted view point. Only through cooperation can European countries have a say in world affairs, the UK, a country of about 60 million people, will be ignored in the face of trading blocks of 300 million people and upwards.

Sooner or later, the UK will come crawling into the Euro with its tail between its legs, and feeling rather stupid.

Re:Coming from a store owner...

[charlie]

"The attitude here in London is mostly anti-Euro, as Brits object to this new prospect of continental government. We've been independent for this long, and under no means do we want to be governed by someone higher than the Parliament" --

It is precisely this attitude that makes me ashamed to be British.

Vive la EU!

Seriously:

There's a widespread assumption in the UK, and most widespread among the Euroskeptics, that we are unequivocally better than everyone else and that their ways of doing things are worse.

I don't buy it. Doing someone else down is the nastiest expression of patriotism, and usually conceals a narrow-minded reluctance to scrutinise one's own actions.

Yes, the banking currency-conversion objection is valid: and so are the issues to do with non-anonymity of large-denomination notes.But the exchange rate doesn't fluctuate wildly -- the Pound is typically locked to within +/- 0.1% of the Euro.

Personally, I'm looking forward to using the same currency whether at home or abroad. And I'm looking forward to the opportunity to vote for tighter integration with the EU.

Re:Coming from a store owner...

[tdrury]

With regards to tracking the serial number:

The only way I can see someone tracking you via a Euro is this: you go to an ATM to withdraw money. The bank knows you and can read the Euro as it is dispensed. You spend the bill. Assuming the merchant deposits all cash to their bank, the bank could resolve the bill from the merchant to the bill dispensed from the ATM assuming it is the same bank or banks share info. This is only likely for large denominations since smaller ones may be tendered as change. Once changed hands, any tracking data is bogus unless the merchant themselves are tracking the euros coming in and going out.

Every US bill has a serial number too, just not magnetically encoded. It would be quite easy to build a box that scans in US bills and reads the serial number. I believe cash is still the best anonymous tender. Magnetic encoding doesn't change anything.

Just food for thought.

-tim

Re:Coming from a store owner...

[Jacco de Leeuw]

I assume your bank charges for converting dollars as well, otherwise they would be running the exchange rate risk. And banks would not be doing that, otherwise they would not be banks for much longer :-).

I have never heard of this particular anti-counterfeit measure. But how is this different from a number or barcode printed on it? Or perhaps it's an anti-theft measure, similar to RFID tags in clothing etc.? (One could always buy a wallet with built-in Faraday cage :-)

Ten percent fluctuation in one day? I don't buy that. In fact, I read that the euro has weathered the Sept 11th crisis better than the dollar. The thing is probably that you have more American customers who want to pay with their own money than European customers. To me, it's a form of respect to exchange your money for the local currency. It would be convenient to pay you in euros but I would not expect it. But what if one of your competitors would start accepting euros? Would you?

So that leaves the anti-Euro sentiment. Which is, of course, mainly politics.

Re:Coming from a store owner...

[Sanity]

Like theyd did in 1940 ??

Yeah, you know, now I see the light. Hitler's suicide was a hoax, he actually went underground where he started to work on his plan to take over Europe - and on the 1st of January 2002, the result of Hitler's planning, the Euro, is unleashed upon the world, but yet again, those trusty Brits (aided by the Danes and the Swedes) resist the Nazi hoardes leaving them free to do whatever Bush tells them to do.

Re:Coming from a store owner...

[avdp]

You are not expected to accept Euros in Great Britain anymore than US merchants are expected to accept British Pounds. So I am not sure what you're trying to say.

As far as a point by point discussion of your post:

• That's no different than accepting French Francs or Deutsche Mark. Don't complain about exchange fees - you British brought that on yourselves by NOT converting to the Euro. It is indeed your right, just don't complain about the consequences of still having to deal with exchange rates (which, yes, do fluctuate).
  
• There is no such thing yet. They are investigating the possibility to do so. Way too early to bitch about this.
  
• Well, that's what makes British people British :) Yes, you are member of the EU, but it just seems that you are because you're afraid to be left behind, not because you really want to.
  
• See the first item.
  

Re:Coming from a store owner...

[Mike1024]

Hey,

There's a widespread assumption in the UK, and most widespread among the Euroskeptics, that we are unequivocally better than everyone else and that their ways of doing things are worse.

That's because most 'common sense good' laws have been established by government, and hence most of what we hear of getting from europe are 'non-common-sense good' laws and 'non-good' laws.

Nobody hears from the tabloid press that 'The European Parliment has done [useful thing]'. We only get stories about people being threatened with legal action because they price thier apples by the pound, or because they sell wood measured in feet and inches.

Furthermore, The Euro has a bloody awful name. It strikes anyone that hears it as boring and unimaginitive. I mean... 'Euro'? What the fuck?

Your average Joe in the street doesn't know economics - it's not a compulsary course in schools, and not many people where I went chose to pick it up at GCSE. Resultantly, people are not aware of the numerous economic benefits. They are far more easily persuaded by flag-waving and jingoistic "There'll always be an England" attitudes.

Should we adopt the Euro? Probably. Should we be part of a 'European Super-state'? Perhaps not.

Normally I would favour a referendum on questions like the former, but sadly, I don't think that 'the man on the street' is educated enough to be objective. I think the general population should be educated in Economics, enough that they can see all sides of the Euro argument.

On the whole, though, I think the Euro could be a fairly good thing.

Michael

Re:Coming from a store owner...

[Zeinfeld]

Sounds to me like you might end up being an ex-owner of a chain of stores.

The Euro costs us £0.50 to exchange for every transaction made. That's right, the banks charge us to convert our money back into pounds! They don't charge at the consumer level, just merchant to merchant, so we mandate consumers do this on their own, or pay via another means.

So that would be on what? Cards? Cheques? Cash? If the customer is paying by credit card or EuroCheque then the amount will be in pounds sterling in any case. All you need to do is to quote the price in Euro.

If you are taking cash then the bank cannot charge per transaction, unless you mean by 'transaction' banking your takings at the end of the day. Unless you are paying your staff illegally low wages 50p is irrelevant.

In any case the demand from merchants to support banking of Euros is going to be significant. The bank charges will rapidly fall as merchants tell their banks that they expect the services to be realistically priced. If the banks don't respond there will be plenty of players ready to step in to offer low cost services.

The conversion rates fluctuate constantly. What's to say that one day, we charge 500 for a gold ring, and then going to the bank to exchange it, it's then worth 90% of that?

And what if the pound suddenly devalues to 90%? You are already dealling in precious metals that have a somewhat volatile price. Margins in the mainstream Jewlery business are typically large - 50% is not uncommon so the cost of lost business has more impact than daily fluctuations in the price of precious metals.

However unless you are running real low end outfits it is unlikely that you would do much cash business in any case.

The shops that are going to have to take Euros are going to be the convenience type outfits, newsagents, cafes, restaurants, pubs, particularly in airports and train stations.

Re:Coming from a store owner...

[Menthos]

Sweden is not in Euroland either, but most major, country-wide shops have already announced that they will accept payment in Euro, mostly as a service to customers (after all they want to attract all customers, also foreign ones).
They are not likely to list prices in Euro however, since the SEK<->EUR exchange rate is not fixated and the list prices would have to be changed almost every day, which of course would be impractical. But payment in the converted Euro amount will be entirely OK. A lot of smaller shops are expected to follow this policy, used by the bigger ones, and allow payment in Euro.

Re:Coming from a store owner...

[joss]

> Should we adopt the Euro? Probably. Should we be part of a 'European Super-state'? Perhaps not.

There lies the rub. Single currency will lead to tax harmonisation, which will lead to Euro super state.

I wouldn't mind EU government if it was founded on something similar to US constitution but current EU parliament is thoroughly undemocratic,
not that British parliament is much better.

As for economics education, it's bollocks. You can do a 4 year degree, and it won't answer the simple question "where does money come from" (mostly it's invented by privately owned banks when people take out loans - an insane system)

Re:Coming from a store owner...

[Colm@TCD]

I wouldn't mind EU government if it was founded on something similar to US constitution but current EU parliament is thoroughly undemocratic.

No, you're mixing up your EU institutions. The European Parliament is highly democratic in that its members are elected directly by the people of its constituencies (constituency boundaries are drawn so that each MEP represents approximately 500,000 citizens, I believe). The "undemocratic" perception of the EU comes from the fact that the European Commission is the major policy- driving organ of the Union; and the Commission is not directly elected; rather its members are appointed by the governments of the 15 nations in the Union. Note that the Commission, despite its perception, does not set EU policy directly; policy is decided by the Council, which is basically the governments of each state acting in concert; the Commission is in charge of implementation of policy; rather like all civil services. I don't know of any government bureaucracy which is directly elected, so the EU is no less democratic than anywhere else, and a great deal more democratic than many places.

See the following:

• Overview of the European Parliament
• Euromyths debunked
• Lots of EU factual information

Re:Coming from a store owner...

[psicic]

Aaaagggh!!

What did you tell them that for? Now we'll never get them!

Our diabolical plans involving free debate(i.e. not based solely on what CNN/Sky News tells us we can talk about), common currency and multiple languages have been scuppered by your post! Live it up tonight boys, 'cause its cynanide pills for us all come the morning.

8)

Let them suffer ...

[orangeguru]

Well, Europe and the Euro work flawlessly without the Brits. I wonder if the same can be said about the tea suckers without the euro?!

I am german and I lived in London for some time - I am always surprised how much propaganda wars are fought around anything european/EU.

The normal Brit would gain a lot and pay less, if those high prices would come down a bit.

For example: cost of living (food, electricity) - even buying a simple CD (are Madonna CD is a Madonna CD no matter where you buy it) are extremly overpriced compared to the continent.

But I guess the british like it exclusiv?!

Re:Let them suffer ...

[Yokaze]

There is a difference between tieing a currency to another and having the same currency.

The first is is usually a mean employed to avoid inflation, with the risk hindering exports.
The latter lets you buy with the same currency in all participating countries without any problems.
I have to admit that for an island this seams to be of lesser importance.
But from an Internet savvy person, one should expect some more creative outlook about the possibilities about a common currency.

With the reference to Argentina, you surely want to refer to the statements of some/several financial experts, who are saying that abandoning a national currency is ceding control over monetary policy.

They are, of course, right... in a way.
A common currency does imply one monetary policy, which has to fit all countries. The monetary policy of the US$ fitted only the US.
The monetary policy of the Euro has to fit all participating states, which euro-sceptical people do not consider as fine-grained enough, especially considering the economical differences between the EU states.
Or as Mr. Davis said:

"It's a problem that you have a one-size fits all interest rate across Europe."

But the US aren't in such a different position. The economical situation in all the states isn't the same neither. Should they introduce different currencies for the different regions? Or France?R eaching from La Reunion over Paris to Martinique the same currency.

The asia crisis, and interestingly the introduction of the Euro (which existed virtually over several years), lead to a tremendous rise of the US$ towards other currencies, which did not reflect the economical developement in Argentina and made importing (from Argentina) unattractive compared to other nations, while the US having a flourishing economy and importing more than exporting profited from the rise.

I consider such a developement for the EU less likely.

Re:Let them suffer ...

[biglig2]

Oh no, it's already affecting prices. It's putting them up.

Shopkeeper:
"lets see, this camembert costs 75 Francs. Thats comes to 11.43 Euros...hell, call it 12!"

Debian Euro HOWTO

[int0x80]

/* FIXME: insert some clever comment about this brilliant HOWTO and mention how useful it is */

Debian Euro HOWTO

Cash machine problems

[Jacco de Leeuw]

I tried three cash machines this morning (there were queues, people are enthousiastic apparently) and one of them had an error. I don't know whether it was out of bills or there was some bigger problem.

Then I tried the recharging stations for the (chipcard based) debit card called "Chipknip" (similar to Proton in Belgium and Geldkarte in Germany). Two out of three malfunctioning.
Now, these chipcards are not used very much by the general public. But the thing is, banks have promoted it a lot lately, because it would make the transition easier. The banks should have done a better job if they are really serious about this.

Also, I have a device which I can use to recharge my chipcard at home. I connect it to a phone line and then it makes a connection with the bank.
I noticed that from now on I can recharge it with 25 euro as a minimum. Previously the minimum was about 10 euro. I wished they had maintained that minimum amount.

Re:Cash machine problems

[uebernewby]

They don't run NT. Their backbone is Tandem machines, which run some sort of UNIX.

Re:Congrats to the Brits

[Sanity]

Yeah, well done Britain, who now can't export anything as their currency is overvalued against the Euro, and who will probably end up using the Euro whether they like it or not, despite having no control over it.

Re:Congrats to the Brits

[yesthatguy]

inside the euro zone the euro was more stable than the deutschmark in their best times.

Hmm...you think that has something to do with the fact that the prices for the Euro in the currencies of participating countries were set three years ago? It's easy for a currency to be stable if it's not allowed to fluctuate.

Re:Congrats to the Brits

[markj02]

So, you congratulate the Brits for being selfish and nationalistic? The irony is, of course, that the British economy and currency are in pretty sad shape. Britain isn't a wealthy empire anymore, it has become a second-rate nation. Britain only stands to gain by joining the monetary union, as many businesses might prefer to have their European offices in an English-speaking country. But until Britain adopts the Euro, it just doesn't make much sense for businesses to go there.

Complete image collection at official Euro site

[xdc]

The official Euro site has images of all of the paper and coin Euro currency, as well as in-depth information. Particularly interesting is the fact that each participating country has its own design on the reverse of the coins.

Here is another official site with plenty of info and images.

Re:Complete image collection at official Euro site

[RC514]

There is an official pdf document called Spelling of the words "euro" and "cent" in the official Community languages . The footnote for the English spelling says: "This spelling without an "s" may be seen as departing from usual English practice for currencies." Note the "may be seen".

Re:Complete image collection at official Euro site

[Kreeblah]

From that page: "the symbol © indicating copyright protection"

So the Euro is copyrighted? But by whom? And if it's copyrighted, the copyright owner could, theoretically, shut out people or member states on a whim . . . (Not that it'd happen, but it's an interesting thought)

No, more like the Soviet Union

[Ars-Fartsica]

The oversight committees and policy boards of a conglomerate-state EU are completely beyond the oversight of individual voters in the respective member nations. Progress? Sure, if you consider bureaucracy progress. Once again, the Americans got it right here - a weak President, with the real power resting on locally elected officials.

The EU on the other hand is governed by the same socialist leftovers who fled from elected politics in member nations years ago.

Re:No, more like the Soviet Union

[GigsVT]

We got it right at first, I agree.

Then we let the executive branch create huge federal police forces, under the guise of the treasury department. Federal agency courts next, seperate, though accountable to (if you're rich enough to appeal it that far), the main judiciary.

The executive order was one of the major things that destroyed the balance of power. That, and the ability to have undeclared wars, and the expansion of the federal government far past what the commerce clause allows.

Tell me how the federal government going against the wishes of the voters in California and raiding cannabis clubs that were legal is justified. Interstate commerce? Hardly, most of it was grown locally and never left the state. They weren't even commercial operations.

Re:No, more like the Soviet Union

[DerekLyons]

Tell me how the federal government going against the wishes of the voters in California and raiding cannabis clubs that were legal is justified.

Allow me to direct you to a portion of Article VI of the Constitution:

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

Please note where the Constitution is specifically the supreme law of the land, as well as the clause: anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding. It's a longstanding priciple of the US Goverment that the Federal laws and Courts are supreme to all other laws and Courts in the nation. In fact, the United States fought a war over the issue of States rights over Federal rights. This debate goes back to the Articles of Confederation (and in fact originates well before) and continues to this day over the relative strengths of the State and Federal goverments.

Re:No, more like the Soviet Union

[FreeUser]

ahem. The constitution explicitely states that any powers not explicitly granted to the federal government by the constitution in fact devolve to the state or local level, or to the people themselves.

The constitution does not grant the federal government the right to regulate or ban drug consumption, merely to regulate (or ban) its trade across state lines. If cannibis is grown in california and consumed in california, the federal government has no constitutional right to get involved. The matter is entirely subject to state law, which in California's case makes the medicinal use and consumption legal.

The constitution states that it is the supreme law of the land.

The constitution states that federal laws passwd in accordance to the constitution take precedence over state and local laws.

However, the constitution also states, as noted before, that laws only related to those powers explicitly granted the federal government may be passed. The drug laws, indeed the entire drug war, is unconstitutional. Unfortunately they are also popular. So, like the forced expulsion of the Mormons from Illinois for practicing an unpopular religion in the nineteenth century, and like the trail of tears (when the american indians were forced from their home by the executive branch and the president after winning their case before the supreme court) our government is simply doing what it often has in the face of widespread public complacency: ignoring the constitution completely.

The fact that the federal government routinely violates the constitution and tramples state and local rights should not be a surprise to anyone who has been watching the downward spiral of American politics over the last couple of decades. While the blatent contempt shown for the will of the people (the California law was passed as a public referendum) is perhaps surprising, it is IMHO but one of the more obvious signs that our government, particularly at the federal level, is of, by and for the special interests, primarilly those best funded, namely corporate interests, and that the will of the people plays little if any roll whatsoever. And how could it be otherwise, with widespread legalized bribery of congress and only two, equally corrupt, parties to choose from?

About the coins...

[jeti]

You should notice that Euro coins from different countries all have the same frontside. The backside is covered with national symbols. So you won't have to look twice to recognize an Euro coin no matter where you are in Europe.

HOWEVER things like the alloy and weight are not really specified. And this is likely to cause a mess with vending machines, scales and counting machines.

Re:About the coins...

[spudnic]

It said on the Euro website that while a country could put whatever they wanted on the back of the coin, it had to maintain a standard weight.

It would be foolish for them to allow coins that are supposed to be interchangeable to weigh different amounts. As for the alloy, I can only assume that that will be a standard also.

Re:About the coins...

[mce]

I really wonder where you got that bit of FUD about the alloys. Everything is normed to be exactly the same, with the single exception of the back side of the coins. It simply has to be, otherwise vending machines would not work at all.

The only issues are whether all producers are capable of sticking to the allowed tolerances and whether those who programmed the vending machines didn't stick to closely to the official norm, ignoring (part of) the tolerances. The first issue should be a non-issue, I think. After all, it alos applied to the previous national coins. The second one can be corrected if needed.

Re:About the coins...

[jeti]

I read up a bit about the topic and it looks
like I have been really misinformed.

I could only find one serious problem mentioned for the one and two Euro coins:
Ring to core interface oxidation problems. If the conductivity of this interface is not controlled very carefully, then coin validators will have to operate with wide acceptance windows, lowering security.

Re:About the coins...

[gorilla]

I don't expect this will be a major problem. There are many similar bimetal coins already minted around the world, eg the Canadian $2 coin.

Good question. Simple answer.

[mindstrm]

Your perception that some currencies are weak/strong is wrong.
THe member countries of the Euro have had their currencies locked together for at least a year now (I think more than that, but I don't know for sure). Their values relative to each other, do not flucuate at all. Money markets have been trading the Euro for a long time now; it's only the presence of the physical cash that is changing today.

The whole point is that the member countries move together, not separately. Due to the nature of the Euro, it CANNOT devaluate in one country and not another. As for goods/services, yes, of course... it's still supply/demand.
Withiin the EU, people can travel, work and live in other countries, etc... It's becoming a large customs zone, where once you are in, you are free to move about as you please. You'll notice your first stop in an EU country when going to europe, you will have to clear customs. After that, you are relatively free.. you may have to show a passport, but that's it.

10 baht coins look like 2 Euro (for machines)

[Otis_INF]

The funny thing with the new Euro coins is: the thailand coin of 10 baht is almost the same in size and weight as the 2 euro coin. So when a cigarettemachine accepts 2 Euro coins, it most definitely will also accept 10-baht coins and will recognize them as 2 Euro. 10 Baht is roughly 20 eurocent in value, so it's very worth it.

It's so odd that they came up with a design of a coin that looks so similar to a foreign coin with so little value compared to the eurocoin.

Anyone's planning a trip to Thailand soon? :)

Re:10 baht coins look like 2 Euro (for machines)

[sconest]

I read an article on Reuters some days ago. Maker of such machines are aware of that and tested their machine with the bath coin. They said it was rejected 99 times out of 100.

Re:10 baht coins look like 2 Euro (for machines)

[eander315]

Most vending machines test various properties of a coin before it is accepted, which reduces the chances of accepting incorrect coins of similar size and weight:

"The key to making a vending machine work is the mechanism that figures out the value of the money you put in them. When you put coins into the machine, it runs a series of tests to find out the coins' dimensions, weight, electric properties, and magnetic properties. This enables it to figure out the denomination of the coin, and whether it is legal tender. The machine rejects coins that fail the tests."

I found this on a kid's site, but it does the best job of explaining the process quickly.

Re:The Euro is here, i can feel it in my wallet.

[mindstrm]

Having just visited your wonderful country.. I can say that I will miss seeing your wonderful banknotes the next time I am in The Netherlands.

The cash in NL is definately the coolest I've seen anywhere. No politicians on it, cool abstract artwork, and just plain nice looking notes. Some of the coins lack... but I got a kick out of the 2.5fl coin :)

And I shudder to think of price in Amsterdam going up another %15, it's expensive enough already.

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[the eric conspiracy]

Germans speak German and the French speak French. See the problem?

Well, in Europe the French also speak German, and the Germans speak French. And most speak English as well.

Still, I do imagine there is a certain economic cost to supporting and using several different languages.

Re:Euro symbol support in Linux?

[DeeKayWon]

But what does that do? After adding that to .xmodmap, what does one do to create a euro symbol? The xmodmap man page doesn't explain it.

Testing the euro symbol found in KCharselect (Table 32)...

There's a flip side.

[mindstrm]

Someone in an area where there is no work now has basically no barrier to entry into moving somewehre else and getting a good job.
Conversley, companies can now open up in other places because they may be able to get cheaper labor. All in all, the freedom of movement and unified currency should help balance things out.

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[the eric conspiracy]

On that note, scanning this thread one finds a mind-numbing array of ignorance and misconceptions about Europe

Scanning this tread also reveals a mind-numbing amount of European prejudice and ignorance about America, presumably from Europeans. Not only do Europeans seem to have these xenophobic and parochial attitudes, but they also seem to feel compelled to display them at every opportunity, furthering the impression that they are both ignorant and ill-mannered.

It's sad, really that attitudes of Europeans prevalent since the discovery of America towards the "colonies" still persist some 500 years later.

Re:Congrats to the Brits

[mindstrm]

Why do you think that? The 'issuance' is only a physical thing.. as far as money markets go, the Euro has been traded for 3 years already.

All that's happening now is that everyone will actually have Euro cash, instead of having to exchange money. Banks, it's not a problem; they've been using Euro internally for years.

This should not affect the value of the euro one way or the other.

Re:Ahhh...a one Euro coin, not a dollar...

[dangermouse]

Everyone I've talked to about the new dollar coin likes it a lot. It's not successful because you can't find the damned things. I never get them as change, my bank is constantly out of them, and everyone I ask about it tells me to go buy a book of stamps at the post office (as the machines there give the dollar coins as change).

Well, guess what? I don't go to the post office. Ever. I use the USPS for paying bills, and that's about it. I rarely have to buy stamps, since I only use a couple every month. When I do buy stamps, I buy them at the grocery store. (!)

Linking the distribution of a new currency to postage stamp vending machines is braindead, but it seems to effectively be the means the government has chosen.

Stamp some more of the damned things and send them to my bank instead of bills!

Re:Euro symbol support in Linux? - See HOWTO

[Lennie]

See the HOWTO:
Google.

Re:This discussion is two years to late ;-)

[stripes]

This discussion here is two years to late, today only the metal and the paper we hold in our hands has changed.

Sort of. Any time in the past two years that an EU country had really wanted to change it's interest rates and fiddle with it's currency value, it could have done it without somehow convincing everyone in the whole country to trade in the currency.

So yeah, two years ago they all tied their boats to the same dock and started hanging out on the island. Today they started setting fire to the boats.

(That's not to say it's a bad idea, but now good or bad it's real hard to turn back)

The Euro and the Dollar

[El Cabri]

When banknotes where first introduced over 17th to 19th century, they were viewed as certificates that a certain bank (usually a single "central bank" per country), would exchange for something of tangible value (usually an equivalent in coins made of precious metal). After WWII a monetary system was introduced in which the USD was the only bill pegged to gold, and other currencies were floating against it. The emptyness of the Fed's gold reserve and the oil crisis broke that system in the 70s, replaced for the first time by the complete floating of all currencies agains each other, with none pegged to any tangible good, and the IMF playinga pivotal role of watchdog to ensure this balance does not diverge.

But the USD became used so widely in international transactions, that it became the de-facto standard against which the currencies values were measured. This gave a huge technical priviledge to the US : the USD could be ridiculously cheap, as it was in the early 90s (when a USD was worth the equivalent of about 0.80 euros in the european currencies of the time), without making holders of USD poorer, since the price of goods on international markets was labelled in USD, giving the US industry an artificial competitive advantage.

Conversely, the USD could be ridiculously overpriced, such as in the mid 80s when it was 25% more expensive then it is now compared to European currencies, making it easier for the US government to finance a huge deficit, while still being able to sustain an abysmal deficit in the balance of payments (since creditor institutions used USD as their reserve currency)

The main economic sense behind the euro is to take away part of that privilege from the US, by making Europe a zone where internal business could be made without any influence of the USD's values. Actual euro banknotes allows banks around the world to actually stash the currency, and makes the integration irreversible, and hence more reliable.

So the US has been considerably opposed to Europe monetary integration, and have worked hard, with their British sidekicks, to make it not happen. Actually the changeover might be seen as the biggest thing that has went in the face of US national interest in the last 30 years, maybe since the end of WWII.

Re:Congrats to the Brits

[Ars-Fartsica]

Being in the Euro zone with all these other countries UK and USA products are getting slighly more expensive but guess what? The other Euro zone countries also produce a lot of these products so maybee I will buy them instead of somthing from the US/UK

Really? Name a major manufacturer of computing equipment that in the EU that is not a foreign conglomerate.

Get used to paying more for the products you really want.

Re:Congrats to the Brits

[3247]

Hmm...you think that has something to do with the fact that the prices for the Euro in the currencies of participating countries were set three years ago?

The Euro has actually been fluctuating since 1999. Only the cash had strange denominations.

Re:Euro symbol support in Linux?

[reynaert]

The canonical way to type an euro symbol is AltGr+E. Here's the official stuff.

Euro symbol in HTML

[Animats]

€ is preferably expressed using the HTML character escape "€". Browsers back to at least Netscape 4 understand this. Use of the HTML escape is preferable to using a character code greater than 128, which is font-dependent. Most current HTML editors, like Dreamweaver, will insert "€" from the "insert symbol" menu, rather than using a character code greater than 128.

Re:Euro symbol in HTML

[phaze3000]

Who cares about stupid extra symbols? Just because the yanks have their S with strikes, is a special symbol needed? Why not just use plain old 'e'?

Personally I quite like the € symbol (works fine for me in Konqueror.. :)), although as I live in that back-water known as the UK I don't get to see it much or use the currency for a while yet.

As for a stupid name for the currency, it's the only name they could come up with that everyone in Europe can pronounce. Alternative suggestions were Florins and Duckets, both of which I think sound quite kool in a Shakesperean kind of way.. :)

Re:Euro symbol in HTML

[JJP]

Dollar comes from the Dutch "daalder", an old coin with the value of one and a half guilder (thats EUR 0.68).

Re:Euro symbol in HTML

[csbruce]

Cents are obviously from % or Centime.

One would presume that it ultimately comes from the French word for 100: Cent.

Re:Euro symbol in HTML

[uebernewby]

The word "Dollar" comes not from the Dutch "Daalder", as someone in this thread said, but rather, both words are descendants of the German "Thaler", which was a medieval coin of some sort.

And one of the finest "European" currency names would have been "Florin" rather than Crown, Shilling or Penny, but then that name would've been perceived as being too Netherlands-centric, as the Dutch currency symbol is Fl. (for "Florin", even though the currency is called "Gulden" (which, incidentally, means "Golden")).

Re:Euro symbol in HTML

[Troed]

Oh? Here in Sweden it started out as being pronounced as "evro" .. now it's "yuro".

(Sweden, where the illiterates voted no to joining the big switch of course .. *sigh*)

Clarification

[Adam J. Richter]

Just to clarify the parent poster's point, it is theoretically possible for everyone in a country to reduce all of their salaries and government benefits to compensate for their
decreasing productivity. However, it is generally impractical to get everyone to agree to do this in sync, while it is trivial if not automatic if that country has a separate currency.

The situation in Argentina is a bit different, because part of the problem is that the government claimed to back its currency with more US dollars than they actually currently have.

Different countries...

[El Cabri]

It's true, but contrary to the case of south American coutries which don't have a say about the Fed's policy, the economics policies of European countries are more or less concerted, but more importantly, they are bound by restrictive rules about public deficits and inflation. Actually Argentina was considering sharing it's currency pegging between the euro and the USD, which would have made sense since the Europe, and particularly Spain, is their main trading partner. The European Central Bank has proven in three years that it was truly independant, and deaf to the claims of governments and private financial institutions. This makes it more credible that they are actually solely commited to controlling the only true measure of a currencie's value : inflation (what you can actually buy with your money). Also, ironically, the one government that is pushing the most currently towards a more "flexible" monetary and public deficits policy, is not Italy and Greece, but ... Germany, the only country in Europe that is in a recession, and the one with the worst surge in unemployement and pubic deficits. Remember, the inclusion of former east Germany has made their average per capita GDP lower than the ones in the UK, France and Italy !

Re:Different countries...

[El Cabri]

Germany is technically i a recession, just as the US is, and it's been a couple of years since their annual growth has not hit 2%.

Forgot the link.

[oddityfds]

Sorry, forgot the link: The euro sign in HTML and in some other contexts

Advantages of a single currency (or not!)

[rcs1000]

Well.. I'll (almost) pass on the Argentina situation. Argentina does not have the US dollar as a currency. Indeed, it is considering 'dollarisation' where it does adapt the dollar as a currency. Right now, it has a currency board with insufficient reserves to support its chosen exchange rate with the US$ given:

(1) Argentina's budget deficit
(2) its large (private) US dollar borrowings, and

(3) modest US$ export earnings

In this situation, Argentina becomes a sitting duck for currency speculators. Irrespective of the 'true' value of the peso, it is near impossible to maintain the value of the currency. Add in a crazy political situation (most of the public sector deficit in Argentina is from *local* government - where politicans are from different political parties to central government, and hence much to gain from embarassing the central government...). Result, chaos. And that's even before a long running recession, supply-side inefficencies, etc.

Back to Europe.

There is an economics theory called 'optimal currency zones' which makes much the same case you do: how can the central bank pursue a coherent monetary (ie interest rate) policy, when the different countries that make up Europe have such different economies?

We don't know.

Only experience will tell. But one thing seems forgotten: the US has widely differing economic areas. How closely correlated are tobacco farming in Virginia, car manufacturing in Detroit, optical networking in San Francisco and investment banking in Wall Street? When car making is suffering from Japanese competition, it might seem to make sense to devalue the Detroit dollar - yet no-one has ever suggested breaking the US into regional currencies.

And the advantages of a single currency are huge: greater price transparency for consumers, lower inflation from greater competition, lower long-term interest rates, etc.

Most importantly of all: work or not, <b>everyone</b> should hope the Euro is a success. Neither the US, the UK, nor Asia will benefit from an economically weak Europe.

And I'm really looking forward to getting hold of my first Euro notes and coins when I go to France on Friday!

Re:Advantages of a single currency (or not!)

[rcs1000]

Yes. Labour (labor) is much more mobile in the US than in Europe.

And Yes, that does mean 'asymetrical shocks' can be more easily absorbed than in Europe.

But that does not mean an Indiana steelworker can easily become a networking expert. (Or, in the current environment, the opposite.)

Even inside countries, people are surprisingly unlikely to move. How else can you explain the persistently high unemployment rates in some parts of the US? The statistics tell a story: very few people change 'region' in the US during their lifetime. And an even smaller proportion change for economic, as opposed to life-style, family or educational reasons.

And at the 'high end' of the emplyment spectrum - by which I mean skilled professionals - locational mobility is increasingly becoming the rule rather than the exception. Find the major investment bank in London where 'brits' make up the majority of senior positions.

I am uncovinced by cultural arguments: I know many Scottish nationalists working in London; many opposed to further European integration find themselves working on computing contracts in Brussels, Frankfurt or Paris.

I could well be wrong, but the evidence does not yet point clearly to either (a) labour mobility being *that* important or (b) people being *much* more unwilling to move - at least temptoraily - around Europe than around the US.

Re:Advantages of a single currency (or not!)

[pcb]

...the US has widely differing economic areas. How closely correlated are tobacco farming in Virginia, car manufacturing in Detroit, optical networking in San Francisco and investment banking in Wall Street? When car making is suffering from Japanese competition, it might seem to make sense to devalue the Detroit dollar - yet no-one has ever suggested breaking the US into regional currencies.

I just wanted to add something here. While your post is excellent, there have been several arguments made from some very prominent economist (cf. Jane Jacobs or John Kenneth Galbraith ) over the years that this is precisely the reason for the rather large difference in economic development between various regions in the US.

I could write for hours on this topic, but I don't have time. Suffice it to say that it is their opinion that the US should not have a single currency. In fact it would be much better for all if each state had their own currency to reflect the economic reality that exist in each state. This idea is not a new one, but I don't know why it is never taught. Though out most of European history, it was very common for each city to have its own currency and they seemed to manage well enough. Anyway check out the above books if you're interested. Check out the reviews as well. Talk about differing points of view.

For what it's worth, I think the ECB is nuts creating a single currency. France and Germany will benefit well enough, but Greece, Spain and Portugal are going to get screwed. They well become simple supply regions for central Europe; industrialization will stop or be significantly reduce, just like in Mississippi or Tennessee.

Re:Advantages of a single currency (or not!)

[mpe]

Despite the different economic areas in America, there are far more similarities between them than differences: a common language and culture, common systems of government and political parties (Reps, Dems, Libs, Greens) and common legal structures (the US court system and relatively uniform state court systems.) Mobility comes in where a person loses his/her job as a dot-commer in San Fran, and moves to Seattle/Atlanta/NY/Chicago to do something else there. You don't see quite as much mobility in Europe, because there is a stronger identification with nation (France, Germany, etc.) than with continent. In America, you don't have people who identify themselves primarily as Michiganders (stupid name, I know) or Californians or Ohioans, but as Americans. (With the exception, maybe, of Texans.)

The difference is that European nations have existed for a long time, in some form or other. Whereas the states of the USA are mainly creations for their own sake. Most of the borders between US states are simply lines drawn on a map with no reference to geographical features in the area. Very few of the US states have ever been nation states.
I'm not convinced about the common language and culture. In the West and South West of the US the echo of the Hispanic empire is quite apparent. Also there are plenty of distinct ethnic groups, who are often refered to as X-Americans where X is some other part of the world. However there is still the lack of identity with specific US states.

Re:Advantages of a single currency (or not!)

[mpe]

Suffice it to say that it is their opinion that the US should not have a single currency. In fact it would be much better for all if each state had their own currency to reflect the economic reality that exist in each state.

Whilst this sounds a nice idea in theory one big problem is that the US states are entities with mainly artifical borders. They may or may not work with independant economic entites. Also you'd probably find some of the US states seeking to be independant nations, especially those which once were...

This idea is not a new one, but I don?t know why it is never taught. Though out most of European history, it was very common for each city to have its own currency and they seemed to manage well enough.

This was also the case in North America up until quite recently. As for the not being taught how much actual history gets taught in the US anyway?

Re:Advantages of a single currency (or not!)

[awol]

Government has essentially two levers by which they control the "heat" in the economic engine. Fiscal policy and Monetary policy. Most governments have abrogated the use of fiscal policy as a means for controlling the economy for a number of reasons and so in most countries (and I use the word in terms of areas governed by a single monetary policy) governments are resrticted to using monetary policy to control the economy. Even further, in a lot of countries they leave the detemrination of interest rates (the handle on the lever) to some external independent body (eg the Federal Reserve in the US)

Anyway, if one is to suggest that the same monetary policy is appropriate for Greece and Germany, or Italy and Holland, then methinks they are fooling themselves. EMU is folly. I am not predicting disaster but staying out of EMU is good for _lots_ of reasons. A single monetary policy (for that is what EMU is all about) is really only appropriate when the cultural forces that determine social utility can be aligned in such a way thet there is some homogeneity of purpose amoingst all those affected by the policy. When the policy forces major regional problems as will happen if things go pear shaped in EMU, then things can get quite unpleasant.

Re:Advantages of a single currency (or not!)

[rcs1000]

Thanks for that: I shall check out those books.

The argument as I see it is very much unresolved: do lower transaction costs and better transparency outweigh greater inflexibility?

And for all the words written on Slashdot, we just don't know.

As a Brit, I must admit I would not join the Euro in the first wave. But, that does not mean it cannot or will not work. It is 'a grand experiment'.

I look forward to reading the reviews of the Euro one year in!

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[rseuhs]

Maybe they mean some special US-American freedom like the DMCA?

Oh well, I think I can do just fine without this kind of "freedom". At least here we don't have to be afraid to be jailed for reverse-engeneering.

Re:So what ASCII value will the Euro be?

[reynaert]

I've heard that's the international symbol for currency. It means you're using the ISO-8859-1 charset instead of ISO-8859-15.

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[Nightpaw]

No, not really. You see, we have these things over here in Europe called schools, and instead of guns our teachers carry books (or at least they did back in the day). Now some of those books are for teaching foreign languages.

The teachers don't carry guns, the students do. Get with it.

Re:Cash movements

[Joe Decker]

I'd guess that in a few years you'd have a pretty even distribution (actually one based on the relative proportion of coins produced by each country.), perhaps some bit of "more coins of my own country" still visible left in the distribution.

I can provide some data from a loosely analogous situation in the United States. US bills are printed at 12 locations in the US, and are originally distributed to banks based on which of the 12 districts that bank is located in.

I'm part of a fun projectthat involves tracking the motion of US currency. I live near (60 miles from) San Francisco--here are the locations the bills I've marked come from, and their relative proportion.

San Francisco 776 32.0%
Kansas City 323 13.3%
New York 205 8.5%
Dallas 187 7.7%
Minneapolis 182 7.5%
Chicago 146 6.0%
Atlanta 133 5.5%
St. Louis 129 5.3%
Cleveland 99 4.1%
Boston 97 4.0%
Richmond 82 3.4%
Philadelphia 63 2.6%

Now, while the banks print out different numbers of bills and such, it's pretty clear that the San Francisco printed bills dominate my sample.

This analogy is unlike the situation with Euro coins for at least one reason--the lifetime of bills is much shorter than the lifetime of coins. Bills tend to last a year or two in circulation, coins for a decade or more. So, as time goes on, I'd expect mixing to be a much larger effect for coins in the EU than it is for bills in the US...

Re:The Euro is here, i can feel it in my wallet.

[linzeal]

This gold coin from the netherlands is the only exposure I've had in the US yet and I got it in november. It was in a bag of chocolate coins ;)

Re:Euro symbol support in Linux?

[DeeKayWon]

Ah. Unfortunately, US keyboards don't have an AltGr key.

Re:Ahhh...a one Euro coin, not a dollar...

[Animats]

There are several billion golden dollar coins in existence. But I haven't seen one in months.

Maybe if the Treasury had a 98 sale, they'd get out there.

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[Lemmy Caution]

At this point, it is probably easier to get into the US than to get into the EU. There is no significant immigration from Western Europe into the US. US monolinguism discourages them from moving to the EU, but I still wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that the US->EU emigration rate surpassed the EU->US rate.

Most immigration into the US is from 3rd World countries; Japan does not have a significant emigration to the US either (a fact which is actually making US Nikkei communities become more isolated from Japan.)

Re:Euro coins

[DGolden]

1/2p coins haven't been legal tender in Ireland for quite a while now (I think they were phased out in the 80s - I'm 23 and barely remember them), and the old 10p was replaced by a smaller coin about the size of the old 5p, while the old 5p was replaced by a really tiny coin. We also had 20p coins (a bit smaller than the old 10p and a bit bigger than the newer one) and (big, thin) £1 coins introduced.

The new 1-cent coin is even smaller in diameter than the old irish 1/2p (it's a little thicker, though).

I always liked our Irish coins, because they had nice pictures of animals on them, and you could "pluck" the "strings" on the harp on the other side, and each "string" really did make a sound with a different pitch (though the sounds were sort of claack-clack-cliick-click), rather than the ugly thingies and wrinkly people's heads on british and most other countries' coins.

The new Irish-issue euros still have the harp on the "national" side, but the euro-side motifs are really boring looking, with a sort of "modern" look that you just know will date astonishingly quickly, like shiny plastic furniture in the 70s.

Ah Punt was pegged to de pound tilll the Euro came

[DABANSHEE]

& So was the Irish pound,

I've got a Irish pound left over from my holidays in 76 & its says 'redeemable for one pound sterling in London' on it, well something to that effect.

For the whole period of the Irish Free State the Pound was pegged, then during the Republic the pound was pegged & it was still pegged to the UK pound when it became the punt, it only got unpegged from the Brit pound I think about 3 years ago when the Euro was introduced for everything but cash purposes, when it became pegged to the Euro instead.

So really its with the Euro that Ireland got full monetary independence from the UK.

Macedonia & Kosovo are using the Euro too

[DABANSHEE]

as their currency.

Also the 20 official countries of the African France & the 15 odd unofficial African Franc countries are in a way going to be in the Euro zone too. Because now the African Franc is pegged to the Euro instead of the French Franc

Re:Spot the Tory!

[uradu]

> Unlike the USA, where one gathers that "conservative" is normal and "liberal" is a
> term of abuse.

Depends entirely on your circle of friends. Within my social radius "conservative" is a lethal word, topped only by the Lethal Joke.

-

Re:The real reason the Euro is BAD NEWS

[uradu]

> The Euro is an undemocratic currency. Period.

Good thing you're not joining the Euro then. Go to the pub tonight and get pissed in celebration.

-

Appreciate, inflate, depreciate...

[wiresquire]

The biggest thing that will happen initially will be that the Euro will appreciate. This is simply because of supply and demand. And initial euphoria of a happy new year!

But the bigger threat is inflation. It's simple and happens anytime there are changes to standard pricing schemes, be that a GST/VAT, exchange rate, whatever.

• Manufacturers don't want to receive less than what they've previously been getting. So they round up.
• Distributors don't want to receive less than what they've previously been getting. So they round up.
• Retailers don't want receive less than what they've previously been getting. So they round up.

It all gets passed on to the consumer (me). Now I need more money to pay for this, so I ask for a raise....That's the classic price/wages spiral.

Economics 101 says that inflation is inversely related to the exchange rate. So that means if inflation goes up, then the exchange rate will go down.

As Germany (the driver of EU commerce), has just officially gone into recession, this inflation pressure is going to be a serious confidence issue in the Euro. As the currency depreciates, there will be the "I told you so" bleating...

Britain, by not taking part of the Euro, is best placed to benefit in the short/medium term. Short term means less than 2 years. Medium term means 2-5 years in financial circles - IT has different time lines.

The only thing that concerns me is the effect this has on the German economy. If there is serious inflation over short/medium term, this could all come undone. If there's not, and the German economy kicks in during this period, then the Euro will take off.

Re:Appreciate, inflate, depreciate...

[akihabara]

The biggest thing that will happen initially will be that the Euro will appreciate. This is simply because of supply and demand. And initial euphoria of a happy new year!

They said that at the beginning of 1999. So far, they're down 30%.

As for supply and demand, that all happened since 1999. Plus, all that money now coming from under the bed is sure creating a lot of supply of currency, but no more demand.

Still so sure? I bet we see the Euro go under 0.80 U.S. this year.

Re:The real reason the Euro is BAD NEWS

[andr0meda]

The control of this currency rests with the German Government. Unlike the presidency of the EEC, which rotates so that each country can have a turn at running Europe, the control of the Euro is fixed with the Germans.

This is not fair or right.

The UK is the most powerful economy in Europe, and its government is clearly the best at managing an economy. If anyone should be running the Euro, fixing the interest rates and running the inevitable European tax system, its the Bank of England, and NOT the Bundesbank.

Either way, whoever is running the Euro, giving control of your currency to another nation is suicide.

Can you imagine the US Treasury accepting the control of the Dollar and the US economy from Canada or Mexico?

That is precisely what is happening in Europe. This is totally wrong, and everyone here is being brainwashed into accepting the Euro because it is superficially convenient.

First of all, stating that the UK is the most powerfull economy of europe is bullshit. Expressed in growth, Ireland wins. If you consider the value of the pound to be the measuring tool, then might I remind you that a strong currency makes export (selling, profits) harder. Most of the european countries are exporting much more than they are importing. The reunion of germany has been payed with the germans giving up their strong DM. This was negotiated by Jacques Delors, Mitterand and Kohl. So give the germans credit where due, they are pulling something off that Europe in itself has yet to make true, political and total unification. It takes time, it hurts, and it is certainly not easy. But in the end it makes us all stronger and brings more stability in our fortress than ever before. I think it's simply the right way to tackle the bigger battle at stake here: The economic wars with the US and Asia.

By the way, the euro is not 'fixed with the germans' as you said. I consider that a typical narrow visioned patriotic view on the matter, but not a clear thinking one. The euro is controlled by the european central bank, which is headed by dutchman Wim Dhuisenberg. Germany is economically still the driving force behind it, because they are simply plain good efficient commonsense hardworking people. That is not to say other states don't work as hard, they simply are not as efficient (and by culture, they usually didn't need to be)

I'm sure this sounds horrendous, but London shopping malls say they ARE accepting and returning euro currency. That's right. We will not need to change currencies and pay taxes whilst doing so in your country, whch is of course a shopping benefit and a way to make sure tourists don't go to Paris instead because of the money thing. People can travel and shop with on single currency. It will make trading goods fairer, and will in the long run slowly integrate a respect for foreign cultures and standards through the pricing of the same goods in different parts of europe. Like Prodi said, we carry Europe in our pockets now, it's not just a far from our beds thing. I'm proud of it, and as far as I am concerned there cannot be enough Europe!

Stating that Brittain needs control of the currency is a laugh, you don't even want to be part of it, but oh look, now that we've got it you want to control it ? That sounds like a envious kid in pre-school. We need Brittain in the system, because yes we want your strong country to support the currency, talking on the same level that every other nation does, and we're sure that in the long term the UK will come to acknowledge the benefit of the Euro. It's not about control, it's about Unification. The UK is no longer an island, but it takes some time for people to see that, along with Denmark and Noorwegen.

- Positive thinking Belgian.

Its recession if they don't join

[DABANSHEE]

Because British exports to the continent are just not going to be competitive unless they either devalue or join the Euro zone.

Look at Oz its the devaluation of the currency that has had Oz had about the best peform economy relative speaking from the Asian monatary crisis & dott.bomb crash to now.

It makes Aussie exports cheap & imports expensive, which is giving us monthly trade surpluses & just 6% unemployement, without needing 'working poor' wages like the US, while still being a welfare state (well compared with the US any way)

Re:Its recession if they don't join

[Derwen]

Because British exports to the continent are just not going to be competitive unless they either devalue or join the Euro zone.

When will this myth die? As I said above , the UK is a net importer from the rest of the EU.

As for Oz - they would be more able to withstand external fluctuations if they hadn't made such a mess of their agriculture (the same could be said for the British Isles ;-)

- Derwen

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[hughk]

I have known several Frenchmen willingly learn German. However the working language in the large international organisations tends to be English. Many French professionals have no problems with that.

Punt has not been pegged to Sterling since 1979

[Ryano]

The Irish Pound (also called the Punt), was pegged to the Pound Sterling on its introduction in 1928, and remained so until 1979. This was because the vast majority of the country's trade in that period was with the UK. Entry into the EEC in 1973 began to change this however, and by 1979 it was no longer desirable for the two currencies to remain linked. At that point Ireland joined the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM), one of the fore-runners of the Single Currency project.

In the period between 1979 and 1999, the Irish Pound floated freely against other currencies, until the euro exchange rates were irrevocably fixed on January 1st 1999. For the past three years, 1 Irish Pound has equalled about 1.27 euro.

One other interesting point to note is that during the period of British domination, Ireland had its own currency from 1783 to 1826. This was worth slightly less than the Pound Sterling, and fluctuated according to economic conditions on the island, but was abolished in 1826.

It would not be fair to say, however, that Ireland did not have monetary independence from Britain until 1979, or indeed until 1999. Ireland had full control over its monetary policy, and could have ended the link with Sterling at any time. However, we were not yet economically independent from Britain, so it would not have been prudent to do so.

Re:Conversion rates

[hughk]

The conversion rates fluctuate constantly. What's to say that one day, we charge 500 for a gold ring, and then going to the bank to exchange it, it's then worth 90% of that? That's lost money to us. We can't afford to be dealing in currency fluctuations. Both the pound and the US Dollar are stable enough to be dealing with, but I won't put my corporation's trust into the Euro.

First of all, if you are wanting to fix an exchange rate, then just talk to your bank. If not, then just take the Euro at the daily adjusted price. You only have a single transaction at the bank and that is end of day when you bank thr currencies. Expect anyway that the cost of Euro cash handling will be driven down by competition and demand.

Many organisations dealing with visitors, such as souvenir shops and museums have already promised to take the Euro. You will find that this will create a demand for cheap cash handling facilities.

As a final point, the pound/dollar are not stable in relation to each other.

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[jjo]

I would suggest that you try thinking through the poster's comments before engaging in ignorant-American bashing.

The United States does have true labor mobility. Moving from one section of the US to another for economic advantage is not only easy, it is very common. In addition to the lack of legal barriers, there are no language barriers and few cultural ones.

Are you asserting that the average Parisian, having just been layed off, could and would chase jobs in Berlin? The average Detroiter could and would do so in Dallas. The Parisian is prevented from doing this, but the barrier is de facto rather than de jure as you seem to assume. From a macroeconomic perspective, it amounts to the same thing: the workers do not, in fact, move.

Arithmetic? [was Re:Congrats to the Brits]

[Derwen]

Yeah, well done Britain, who now can't export anything as their currency is overvalued against the Euro, and who will probably end up using the Euro whether they like it or not, despite having no control over it.

Are you saying that weak currencies are good?
If exports are more expensive, then imports are cheaper. In the UK vs the rest of the EU, you will find that the UK is a net importer from the other european states. Exports mostly go to the USA and other former colonies :-)
- Derwen

Re:Arithmetic? [was Re:Congrats to the Brits]

[Sanity]

Are you saying that weak currencies are good?

No, I am saying that a disparity between currency values is bad. Of course the UK doesn't export much to Europe right now because of exactly the problem I am describing. Don't you think that it is better to export to countries closer to you, rather than those further away? So why can't the UK? Yes, you guessed it, because Sterling is overvalued against the Euro.

Re:Arithmetic? [was Re:Congrats to the Brits]

[Derwen]

Don't you think that it is better to export to countries closer to you, rather than those further away?

On environmental grounds alone? - yes.

So why can't the UK? Yes, you guessed it, because Sterling is overvalued against the Euro.

Actually it may have something to do with the systematic destruction of the UK manufacturing industries which once exported to (the rest of) europe :-(

- Derwen

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[Zeinfeld]

You're right that labor, legally and technically can freely more, but there are such huge cultural barriers (language) that make it very costly to move.

I have lived and worked in four European countries and I have never troubled to learn the native dialect. All foreigners speak English, particularly now that it has become the de-facto language of the EU.

Language is becoming much less of a barrier simply because the size of the EU has grown so large that everyone who wants a job in management has to know English. All the technical litterature is in English, just about the only thing not available in English is high quality porn but nobody cares much whether the lassie groans in French (ah, ah, ah, aieeee!), English (oh, oh, oh, aghhh!) or German (eine swei, fier, ugh! ...)

The REAL reason is because of currency trading

[argoff]

When you have a relatively small economic base (like say Hong Kong), and your currency is backed by the "good faith of the government" - it is possible for a group of billionaire investors to get together, call your bluff, and make a fortune when you can no longer back up your money. This is the real reason why everyone now has Euro fever. By putting everyone under one puffed up currency, "calling the bluff" takes allot more cash up-front and allot more risk. It is also the reason why strong economies like Britain and Switzerland are staying away.

The currency convince explanation is a farce. All the people who do real business in Europe have this automated by computer anyhow. Even though it will make things easier on the average citizen, it is actually poor economic and social policies that are holding Europe back.

Of course, the real solution is to have currencies backed by market value and not by the "good faith of governments". Eventually this is going to burn everybody, including the USA.

Any way to get the currency outside of Europe?

[DarkEdgeX]

I've always been fascinated with foreign currency (specifically, the printed variety), and the Euro is the most interesting to come around in a long time. Is there any place online one can order printed currency or coin ala the US Mint? (http://www.usmint.gov/ for coins or http://www.treas.gov/ for printed currency-- US Mint apparently handles international orders for those curious about US currency, not sure about the Treasury.)

Re:Any way to get the currency outside of Europe?

[ksheff]

Call your bank and ask them when they will have Euro notes available. If all else fails, go to an airport (and pay rotten exchange rates).

If you are in a major metro area, there will probably be at least one bank that will have some foreign currency on hand. I did this when I went on vacation a couple years ago so I would have some local currency when I stepped off the airplane.

Notes from Frankfurt

[hughk]

I live just outside Frankfurt am Main, home of the European Central Bank. I mostly do systems work for financial securities houses and exchanges. I am a Brit with experience of living and working in various EU countries as well as further afield.

The exchanges and markets have been working in Euros for the last year. This makes a unified market within the Euro-zone countries. However, until we had a real currency, there was a crisis of confidence.

I duely went out and got my 20DM worth of Euro coins in December. This was part of the so-called familiarity and to try to front-load the system to help with the problem of small change.

A couple of days ago, I had a guy at a bookshop at Frankfurt airport try to pass me off with two 10 year old banknotes of a withdrawn design. I objected because the notes could only be changed at a bank, and he gave me modern notes. The old bank notes were in very good condition and probably genuine, but I still refused.

Well I was out last night, spending Deutschmarks in a pub all night. Did I rush out to get my Euros, no as I anticipated a queue at the cash-points. I stayed away from the ECB because I didn't like the crush.

In the morning, I noted that the region transport company, the RMV seemed to have a lot of ticket machines out of order. However, I was able to get money from an ATM w/o queueing and without problem.

We are relatively lucky in that the exchange rate is set close enough to 2 at 1.95583. However, the retailers have been given a little too much leeway in setting their prices, so there is a lot of retail price inflation (already apparent during December). In France, they introduced a price freeze for three months to prevent this.

In real terms, it will probably start being useful on my next ski-trip. No more currencies to worry about apart from the Swiss Franc, and already, some resorts in Switzerland are saying that they will accept the Euro. Many have been taking Deutschmarks and French Franks already for things like lift-passes.

I expect that there may be some problems tomorrow when the first real business day for the shops starts, probably with availability of change as the public have practically none. Shops should give change in Euros, even if you spend DM.

Re:Notes from Frankfurt

[hughk]

Old notes are not demonitised, but not everyone accepts them. Same applies to US currency, try using some old $100 notes outside a major bank.

Newer money is preferred because of the reduce risk of counterfeiting.

Re:Notes from Frankfurt

[hughk]

Actually most places have been working overtime to get their vending machines updated. With limited availability of coins for checking, I'm sure there are going to be some real fun problems. Some of the RMV automats were extremely picky about German currency, so heaven knows how they will cope with the slightly differring

As noted, I usually work in Frankfurt, most recently at the Boerse but I live up in the Taunus at Oberursel.

Re:Notes from Frankfurt

[hughk]

Sorry for the misinformation, I only got it from the Economist!

The issue here is that a price of DM199 should be converted to €101.75. Of course, the shop doesn't want such prices, so they call it €104, or even worse €109.

Price creep on majo items isn't so bad percentage wise but on small items in the supermarket, whoa!!!!! We are seeing an average increase of about 5% or so.

Re:Notes from Frankfurt

[tdye]

Boy is this going to sound like a troll... but since I'm an American living in a Euro country (Ireland) I get to say it anyway:

Until the problem in quotes is resolved, the European continent will never, ever, ever have as strong an economy as the USA:
However, the retailers have been given a little too much leeway in setting their prices, so there is a lot of retail price inflation (already apparent during December). In France, they introduced a price freeze for three months to prevent this.

How many of you Americans had this phrase jump out at you... and how many Europeans missed it altogether?

The retailers have been given too much leeway?!? Do you see the problem here? It's not the job of governments to decide how much a retailer gets to charge for his goods! The retailers should be able to tell their governments to fuck off, and charge what they can get... but they aren't allowed!

But the more fundamental problem is deeper: Many Europeans don't agree with this idea, and they are MUCH more in favor of tightly regulated markets... so much so that they don't think about it. It's an accepted precondition, and so you get comments like the one I quoted.

The truth is, the price inflation happens because the retailers will inflate to whatever level they are allowed by their govermnemts. If it were a real market, they would inflate to whatever the consumers were willing to pay for the goods... but this doesn't occur to many (if not most) Europeans, and it's such a foreign idea that it's hard to even explain. So you get France freezing retail prices for three months! Why do people put up with it?
Because they don't understand, on the fundamental level that Americans do, what a FREE market is, and what it does for the people who succeed in it.

Re:Notes from Frankfurt

[tdye]

And this is why people get arrested in France for working more than the allowed hours/week. With all the import/export issues, price controls, artifically inflating prices to protect piss-poor market performance and inferior products, I don't see the free market. Ask Irish Eircom customers where the free market is.

This is exactly what I mean. It's not a religion... but the govt. shouldn't be ABLE to freeze prices, even if it wants to. It's none of the Republic of Ireland's business what I charge for a widget... all that matters is if my customers think it's a fair price.

The idea that it's possible to force an entire country's retailers to freeze their pricing across Christmas because the govt. is worried that people don't want to use calculators is madness. Caveat Emptor, and if you're worried, then let the govt. buy Euro calculators for everyone.

You'd think, if this were a real collection of Democratic societies, that the same people who voted to change their currency would be able to manage to convert it without having to be patronized and shielded from the market by their own governments.

(But wait... most people didn't vote to change this, did they?)

Do you see what I mean? Your government shouldn't have the ability to dictate anything at all with regards to your pricing, whether they want to or not, whether they think it's better for people or not. You can't retain the ability to arbitrarily manipulate commerce like that and expect a powerful united economy to rival the USA.

Re:Notes from Frankfurt

[tdye]

LOL

Well, first of all, what's wrong with being rich? USA has a larger percentage of rich people per capita than the rest of the world, too, and we whip ass in charitable giving as well.

***SHAMELESS BIAS WARNING***
As for homeless, I suppose you have to decide whether you want to be a society that brutally taxes your successful people so that the failures can have a nice house and a car, or a society that says you get what you work for, and you work for what you get.

Re:Notes from Frankfurt

[hughk]

Sizes are not a major issue. It recent times, the guilotining of bank notes has been far from perfect. Our ticket machines have previously accepted DM10 and DM20, but have not accepted DM50. Perhaps that was a worry about vulnerability to counterfeiting? Anyway, the season ticket machines didn't take cash, rather direct debit. I have no idea which Euro notes will be accepted.

The problem is with the coins because we have about half a dozen or more regional mints. Sometimes the physical characteristics have upset the (Swiss made) ticket machines.

Now we have coins carrying differing designs and being sourced from throughout the Euro-zone. I hope this works.

I should add after another visit into town this afternoon that there is a higher than normal demand for cash in the banks and from the ATMs, and paying is generally a little slower as people get used to the currency and the prices, but otherwise it is ok and the currency seems popular.

Re:Notes from Frankfurt

[tdye]

Ye Gods, a reasoned response! I love those.

First, let me dismiss (again) the idea of Free Merket = religion. I don't support that. You're right, it doesn't always work, but that's not quite my point anyway. I don't think it's fair to say that the idea of a butcher being able to ignore arbitrary price controls created at the whim of a government afraid of political backlash equates to me saying free markets are arbitrarily good, or that Europe is falling apart... but that's neither here nor there. BTW, where's the enforcement end of that? Does the butcher get thrown in jail for overcharging for his lamb chops?

The problem is that's free market is only proven to work on a very restritive set of assumptions. One of them is perfect information, and rationality.

Then the job of government is to educate the people, not to protect them from their ignorance. You'd think that would be the obvious step, right? By that rationale, any population that could be shown to have poor enough math skills could vote to force retailers to price everything in even numbers, and they'd have to do it. Ignorance is not a good foundation for regulation, and certainly not a good place from which to begin governing a people. "Right, we all know many of you can't type in a number and hit that Euro/Franc button, so we're freezing all prices for 3 months, regardless of availability, no matter how much it screws the retailers over the Christmas season. We know plenty of you are stupid, and we're here to protect you from that.".

Or even worse, the people declare they're too confused to understand it all, so the govt. responds not through increasing education and reducing ignorance, but through forcing the retail market to halt price changes so the ignorance doesn't get any worse!

It's the job of the governement to protect the citizen from abuse, or to regulate what is going wrong in a free market here

I agree in the case of abuse, but taking advantage of ignorance is not the same as abuse... if it were, by God the user-car market should be regulated immediately!

And I think you miss the point. When you hand off the job of fair pricing to the govt, you've reduced democracy. The retailer is not a robot with no rights to conduct business in the fashoin he chooses, and it's not *wrong* to charge more if you can get it. Caveat Emptor! The result is more freedom for the individual, less power for the government. Regulation begets LESS democracy, less individual freedom, and more govt. control.

What I'm criticizing (and to be honest, what I'm constantly amazed by) is the willingness of the people to hand off personal responsibility to the govt, and the willingness of the govt. to take whatever powers over the people they can get, regardless of the fact that they are playing the society against itself. Think about this: What has the govt. in France said by freezing prices? They have said that business owners are not to be trusted, and that govt. must protect ordinary work-a-day people from money-hungry capitalist thieves who will screw you however they can. Thank God we were here for you! That's a destructive idea to sow amongst your people, unless you don't care how many of them rely on the govt. for their livelihood.

If I'm buying your bread, you'll damn well do what I say.

So, you not only fail to understand the problem, and the solution, but you also criticize them without a clue.
So I'm clear on the real problem, I think the typical European solution is 'out of the frying pan, into the fire', and I'm criticizing the system by which many Europeans tend to dodge personal accountability and responsibility in favor of govt. protection and coddling, which the ministers are more than happy to provide.

This is why 'the dole' in the USA is viewed as a necessary evil, and in Europe as a semi-legitimate lifestyle choice.

Europeans are not behaving like if "FREE market" was a absolute god, or a religion which as to be inconditionnaly followed "no question asked".
Ahh, but the 'no questions asked' attitude is exactly the one you're taking by freezing prices. While I don't think a free market solves all problems, it's certainly better than an attitude of "Just make it simple for me, keep me safe, and to hell with whoever it hurts in the process... I don't want to ask questions about pricing." Why does your desire to pay the same thing for milk trump the shopkeep's desire to make a few cents more when he can? In a REAL fair system of government, regulation would be out of the question unless it was clear milk pricing was so far beyond the pale that it couldn't be excused. Even in cases where you need a thing to survive, the US govt. rarely regulates prices directly. When heating oil got unbelievably expensive at the start of winter last year, did the govt. cap oil prices? No, it increased availability, which causes prices to naturally lower. Do they cap the cost of electricity in Chicago in the summer, when the heat can kill folks with no central air? No, they give away free fans and help pay your bills. In fact, if commerce in the US doesn't cross state lines, the Federal govt. can't really regulate it at all... even when they want to!

If something looks wrong or unfair, the governement can attempt to regulate it. It might fail, it might succeed, but we tend to vote for it to regulate in some case.

Unfair to whom? This is one of my points. For large issues, I understand sometimes, but what right have you to force the local shopkeep to charge what you want him to? Why is he less of a citizen than you, because he's selling and you're buying?

It's this kind of situation that makes me believe govt. should stay out of the way. Playing the workers against the middle class is BAD government, even if the workers *want* to use the regulatory stick to beat up on the retail sector. Taking any sort of stand re: who is a more deserving citizen is ultimately destructive to the economy and the society... you condition people not to desire success, because it's better to be on the winning team. In the US, success is where it's at; successful people are not viewed with veiled suspicion, and not treated by their govt. as second-class citizens.

So, on one hand, we don't care about frozen retail price, we take it that three months is short enough not to damage the economy.

You might care if you were the butcher and the price of beef doubled in December... of course, the govt. would prevent that as well. Do you see the kind of snowball effect this meddling creates? When you start mucking around in the economy with the goal of keeping people happy, you end up with... a crappy economy. The extreme examples: East Germany and the USSR. On the other hand, you have the USA extreme, where people do get screwed sometimes... look at the price of CD's. But, if you were to pick, which one would you have? Most European govts lean decidedly more toward the USSR model than the USA one... and this schism between you and the shopkeep perpetuates it. Why do businessmen in Europe feel as though they have to justify their actions to me? I think it's great that they're making money hand over fist! But, again, many Europeans view that kind of success with skepticism and distrust, and the govt. just plays along. In fact, it makes the businessman MORE dishonest! Instead of being honest because he knows screwing his customers a few times costs him YEARS of business, he takes what he can get because the customer half-expects to get cheated already, and there's no chance of trust.

On the other hand, we're happy that buying whatever good in Euro to our traditional shop, there won't be a silent hidden 5%,10 or 20% inflation hidden somewhere on some product.

Regardless of whether or not the shopkeep happens to actually be losing money or getting persecuted by his govt. to keep you happy...right?

So on average, we are happy. What's the problem?

I suppose the problem is that you rely on the govt. to create and safeguard that happiness, at the possible expense of others in your own society. It's not your government's job to make you happy! It's your job. IMHO, you're better off failing on your own than partaking of govt.-mandated happiness.

The other problem is that regulation impacts your economy's ability to create wealth in the populace, which makes people less able to prosper, which requires more govt intervention, which requires more severe taxation of the few who are successful despite earlier regulation, which discourages people from being highly successful in the first place, which creates more govt dependency and less economic potential, which doubly impacts the people's ability to create wealth...

Re:Notes from Frankfurt

[tdye]

Okay, briefly: Check out some of my other response to another comment regarding playing the society against itself. I feel pretty confident in assuming that the retail industry either a) didn't want the price freeze at all, or b) went along with it because they knew no one would trust them otherwise. That's using govt to divide a society, instead of getting the regulatory bodies out of the way in favor of consumers makine informed choices. That is... bad!

Next: What do you mean, who am I to decide? I'm the same as you, and that's what I think. It's not religion... but I think your complacency and desire to have somebody else do it for you erodes your freedom in ways you'll eventually find particularly unpleasant. And, of course, you aren't a shopkeeper... so your opinion is better.

I do notice that free-market parties tend to get beaten soundly, and regularly. It's got to be a tough sell to try and get a population that's comfortable with handouts to get up and do for themselves... especially when the govt. creates a culture in which success is not to be trusted.

Next: So what? So, wouldn't it be better to educate your people, rather than ask the government to save you from ourselves? (side note: you're arguing against yourself by saying on the one hand that your population is intelligent enough to make good decisions about the desirability of heavy government regulation, and on the other that it recognizes it's inability to convert a Franc to a Euro and accepts the need for drastic government intervention as a result)

Says me, if I'm a shopkeeper. Why does your ignorance make you more deserving of government intervention? Why are you more important than me, the shopkeep? Why the hell should you be able to tell me what I think the price of a steak should be? If you don't like it, don't buy it! Either I'll figure out I'm charging too much, or I'll go broke. It's not the job of government to act as a cudgel beating me into submission so that you don't get cheated out of 50 cents. Caveat Emptor! The result is more individual freedom. Can that be bad?

Next: Wasn't that the stated goal of the Euro Zone? To create a powerful economic base, to unite Europe into a trading power that rivals the US market? What the hell are you doing this for anyway?

Next: Actually, I think I think lots of things would be better than £30K a year and lots of time at home. For example:

I think it'd be better to be so successful as a shopkeep that I can stay home and hire someone to mind the store, making $60K a year or more and working hardly at all.

Or maybe better to work constantly to make 300K a year and send the kids to Harvard.

Or best of all: To not have to settle for 'quite decently' if I don't think that's enough. The point? It's so hard to get to 'stupid crazy rich' in Europe that hardly anyone tries, even if that's their fondest wish. Regulation, taxation, and the acceptability of welfare create a culture where you're punished for wanting great financial success, and practically prevented from getting it no matter how hard you try. In the states, if you wanna love on $30K a year, bully for you. It's easy to do in 90% of the country. But if you want to strike it rich, it's at least relatively possible... and certainly not demonized by a lazy and jealous welfare class who refuse to admit how much they depend on the success of the relative few, with the tacit complicity of the govt. itself.

Re:Notes from Frankfurt

[tdye]

Of course not per capita... but that doesn't matter! In raw money, we give away more than anyone else... and that doesn't even factor in the international aid the US government provides. We hand out trillions of dollars in relief, aid, grants, loans, and debt forgiveness. Also, redistribution of wealth is a great way to end up as a socialist society instead of a democratic one. Also, isn't it better to give my money to those I consider deserving of it? It is MY money, you know. Why is it better that I be forced to give it to those on whom I feel it's wasted?

Your view is it's better to have many rich people AND not to tax them to much... Our view is it's better to have fewer poorest people.

This is incorrect. Our view (generally... there's plenty of "discussion" about this) is that it's better to give people the opportunity to succeed or fail on their own merits, and not to restrict either overly much. Your view is that the failures should be suported by the society, no matter how little they've tried to succeed. To accomplish this, it's required to redistribute vast amounts of wealth... which is a Bad Thing. See my other replies in this thread...

You want the truth? I don't care a little bit about how many rich there are. Not how they will be forced to downgrade from a Ferrari to a mere Mercedes because of the taxes.

Ahh, but you DO care! If you didn't, you wouldn't have made that comment. It does highlight what I've been saying, though, which is that class warfare is rife here, and rich people are undeserving of their wealth when there are poor lazy bastards on the dole who 'need' it more. You ought to care about taxes on rich people , if only because you might become one day. It's more likely, though, that you'll lose out on a job a rich person might have given you, because he's lost too much money via wealth redistribution to hire anyone else.

Not exactly my idea of a robust economic and social system...

Re:Notes from Frankfurt

[tdye]

Okay, so I want to go point-by-point through some of this, but before that there's an overall thing that we're disagreeing on here, and I don't know that it's surmountable at all: It's not a lose-lose situation, it's a tradeoff, it's a choice. But who said freedom was the only goal.
In the US worldview, freedom is not a goal. It is a fact of human existance which must not be infringed upon. The goal is to achieve the best result without infringing upon the inherent freedom of the individual. Freedom is not a goal, not an end which can be achieved to a greater or lesser degree based on the decisions of government. Freedom is not a commodity gifted to the people by the rulers or by the political documents which describe the system. It is an inherent quality of humanity which cannot be restricted by other humans without the consent of the individual.
You spoke frequently of trade-offs. You can't have a 'trade' unless both parties consent, and empowering a government to restrict my freedom in exchange for your convenience or happiness is fundamentally wrong, even if the government compensates me after the fact.

This fundamental difference in what freedom is shades the entire discussion. Your lawsuit/regluation comparison for example: If someone lies to me about a car, I can sue them after the fact. That's one individual calling up judgement against another for a dishonest act, arbitrated by an impartial member the government. If you regulate honesty before the fact, however, you must restrict personal freedom to acomplish it.
If freedom is a commodity, that's fine. The govt. can force you to relinquish some of that commodity, and gift it to others in the form of a guarantee. But if Freedom is a basic human right, then you cannot allow the government to diminish the right of one person for the benefit of another. Punishing dishonesty protects freedom, enforcing truth diminishes it.

I don't think it's possible to go beyond that difference in view, but onward to the rest of your comment:

Regulation begets LESS democracy, less individual freedom, and more govt. control.

No. The more and more the government has power, the more and more my vote is worth. And my goal might not be to maximize my freedom, but to get enough freedom AND safety so that I feel happy. And I have different wishes than you.

First off: with no inherent personal freedom, what's to stop the majority from trading ALL their freedom for safety? I certainly have different wishes than THAT, but individual freedom having no sanctity and no protection, I guess I'd just be fucked in that case, eh?

As government gains power, you gain power over others, but THEY also gain power over YOU.
Again, if freedom is a commodity, than maximizing it might not be your goal. But if it is a basic human right, then my different wishes are just as valid as yours, and you shouldn't be able to restrict my basic human rights for your convenience, even if everyone else in the country agrees with you. Protection of individual freedom is the only way to prevent a tyranny of the majority.

don't seem able to grasp the concept of "tradeoff".
I grasp it well enough. When you're talking about a welfare system, it's perfectly legitimate to discuss. IMHO, it's an outrage to take HALF of what I work every day to earn, and give it to someone who is unwilling to work at all. To me, that seems like a disincentive to work at all... or at least, to make sure I stay medium enough to avoid the taxman. If medium-ness is your eventual societal goal, then I guess that's good... but I believe that government should create equality of opportunity and let the chips fall where they may, without regard to how even the wealth ends up.
BUT
When you're talking about the government, through the engine of a frightened, ignorant, greedy, or uncaring majority, forcing a reduction in my inherent personal freedom in exchange for a percieved 'good' level of happiness, convenience, or safety, IT'S NOT A TRADE! It's a tyranny, and it's no different in principle than the French government forcing you to allow a soldier to live in your house, to "protect" your family against a potential "threat", even if 99% of Frenchmen believe it's a good idea.

I doubt a 3 month freeze is big deal
First, regardless of whether it's a 'big deal' or not, It's still bad for the govt. to play the workers against the middle class... which is exactly what that does.
Second, I'd hope you were CERTAIN (not just doubtful) that it was no big deal before you used your majority power to bludgeon the retail sector into doing it. Since they can't protect themselves from you because their freedom is a commodity which can sometimes be ripped from them without their individual consent, I hope you make sure to vote wisely...

If regulation is bad (i.e. the tradeoff changes), the governement changes the regulation or remove it. OF COURSE! No snowball effect, if the ball is to big, we suppress it.
No, your govt tries to supress it (not you). We all know, government is woefully sluggish and rarely able to act rapidly to changing market conditions, which means your regulations will always be a bit behind the curve, and someone will ALWAYS be getting screwed somewhere by the government, to the detriment of their business and their rights. That has a depressing effect on the entire economy.
At least, in an unregulated market economy, you don't get businesses punished by the government with bad regulation until they can convince someone that they're getting creamed in the market by companies that are unfetterd by government interference. If you loose your arse, it's generally your own fault, not that of an uninformed majority or a slow beurocratic engine.

In fact there are three issues: control of production, regulation, and redistribution
This is an interesting way to frame it, and one I hadn't heard before. At least here, we can agree to part ways in an amiable fashion, withut stomping on the rights of the individual too terribly much. Since it's clear that controlling production is a dumb idea, we're really just back to the welfare question anyway.

100% redistribution (i.e. the State gets all wages company willingly to pay for employes, and redistributes all the wages - possibly all equal for all)
IMHO, equality of opportunity should be the goal, not equality of outcome. It's wrong to ask a brilliant brain surgeon to take the same compensation for his work that a garbage man takes, and it devalues everyone in the society. Equality of outcome guarantees a systemic lack of ambition for your population and an eventual spiral into debt and ruin for the whole country.

He won't lose millions, and that's exactly why the law was passed. If this assumption get wrong, the law changes
True enough, but in the meantime he's had to forcibly submit to the government and hope for redress at some later date. It's the principle that's important, not the financial loss... Freedom is not a commodity. When the govt takes your freedom and your money, you might get your money back but it's practically impossible to get back your freedom.

Since you can't argue abuses are cool, you are focusing on the 0.01% losses
First, I would argue that abuses of that sort are just fine! Caveat Emptor! Let the retailer ruin himself with dishonesty.
Second, I'm not focusing on the financial loss really, I'm focusing on the constriction of a basic human right and the lack of protection of individual freedom that the act highlights. So what if it's only a few cents, for a few months. It's not so bad, right?
That was George III's argument, too. It's the freedom you lose that can't be regained without a fight.
Of course, if freedom is a tradeable commodity, then perhaps you can get some of it given back to you... if enough other people agree, of course. Because if freedom is a commodity, and unprotected as a basic fact of human existance, then you only have as much of it as you can convince others you should have. God help you if the others decide you shouldn't have any, because in that system, no one else is going to.

Re:Better Pics

[spudnic]

The pictures on this site are quite a bit different from the photograph the original poster put up. I'm assuming that these are drawings from before the final version was complete?

.

Re:Congrats to the Brits

[Zeinfeld]

So, you congratulate the Brits for being selfish and nationalistic? The irony is, of course, that the British economy and currency are in pretty sad shape.

For most of the Thatcher years that was indeed the case. Growth was sluggish, unemplyment catastrophic.

However since exiting the ERM the UK has been doing OK and in recent years has been growing at a steady rate of 2.5 to 3% a year - pretty good compared to the rest of Europe, inflation and unemployment are both low. Pretty good compared to the rest of Europe and not bad even in comparison to the US under Clinton. Unlike the US the UK is not currently in a recession.

Economic triumphalism goes in cycles. In the 1980s Germany and Japan were trumpeted. Then in the space of 18 months Japan went from being the miracle economy to basket case. Germany is no longer talked about with awe which is probably unfair as no other ecomony could have absorbed Eastern Europe the way Germany has without major upheaval.

But for the Bush recession the pundits would have been talking about a US economic miracle. If the US recovers they may yet do so. If they do not however and the UK continues to do well it is quite likely that the UK will be the flavor of the season.

Although pay rates in the UK at the top end are lower than in the US, wages in the middle and lower end of the scale are much better. The UK has far fewer slums than the US and beggars are almost disappeared from the streets.

Joining the Euro might well help. The effect is nowhere near as it is being made out, just as the loss of sovereignty is negligible as the choice is surrender to the exchange markets or surrender to Brussels.

that small change comes in handy when you're broke

[DABANSHEE]

Here in Oz we have $1 & $2 coins. Whenever I come home I dump the contents of my pockets into a shoe box ontop of my telly.

Every time I'm broke & I'm fanging to buy a shot of smack, or a case or beer, or a bottle of bourbon, I dump the contents onto the bed, push all the crap to the sides (glasses, pieces of paper, receipts, prescriptions, tissues, pens, etc) & tally ap all the 50c, $1, & $2 coins, & it useally adds up to over $60. Which works out to at least 2 2doz cases of beer or 3 bottles of generic borbon, or about 3 shots of smack (at my current tolerance)

Paper money/Digital cash rocks [Re:the coin route]

[jbf]

Men have no practical way to carry change... As soon as I get home, I also dump all my change in a bin. Unfortunately, I never have time to sort it out. What that means is a lower velocity of money and a higher savings rate, but that savings never makes it out as a loan, so it doesn't cause more monetary growth.

When I traveled in Europe and Canada before, the high denomination coins annoyed me (the Canadian twoonie and the 10ff coin are notable offenders), since I felt obligated to carry them and use them, or I'd never have a use for them when I got home. Italians must feel equally miffed, since their largest coin is 500Lira (about 25 cents) and you probably could go a week in Italy without ever using a coin.

The right solution if you're worried about reissue cost is smart cards and cryptographically anonymous cash. One reason I use credit cards everywhere I can is to reduce the amount of cash I need to keep around. I'd definatly carry a smart card around if it were legal tender...

Re:oh yay

[spudnic]

The problem with that is the equal representation bit. Why should some tiny country with a few hundred thousand citizens have the same amount of pull as the US? It shouldn't.

What would be needed is like what we have here in the US with two houses of Congress one where the number of representatives is determined by the size of their constituency and the other with equal representation.
Anyway, the only thing that will ever cause the nations of the world to join is a common threat to our lifes, freedoms, or money from a force outside of Earth.

.

Re:The real reason the Euro is BAD NEWS

[uradu]

> Last time I looked

Again, cereal boxes don't count.

-

Re:The real reason the Euro is BAD NEWS

[Zeinfeld]

We've had to save your butts from the Germans two times already WWI, and WWII.

First off, we were saving our own butts, just as the Yanks were when they finally entered the war after Hitloer declared war on them and Japan attacked them.

When I discussed Europe with Ted Heath he said that the reason he took the UK into the then EEC was precisely because he lost half his school friends in WWII. The whole point as far as he was concerned was to integrate the European economies to the extent that 1) no European country would ever again fall into the level of chaos that allowed Hitler to come to power and 2) would pre-empt any Facist type argument for invading other European countries.

I've been to Belgium, I've seen the graveyards full of millions of British dead.

The last time the UK suffered casualties on anything like that scale in Belgium was at Waterloo. Even then Wellington's force was nowhere near a million men, and the casualty rate was 50%. Oh and the only reason why we won rather than lost was that Blucher's Prussian guard (also known as Germans) arrived in time.

Re:The real reason the Euro is BAD NEWS

[andr0meda]

Oh come on, not the WW thing *again*. That was half a decade ago. We have NOT forgotten those who died in Ieper, and we play The Last Post every night for those brave men who gave up their lives to free europe from Hitler. Yes yes yes we've seen it, we hear ya, but I'm sorry to say, we moved along. It's another world out there today. Geez..

The issue at hand here is the Euro, the currency used in the *west* european market. Whether Britain (sorry about the typo, too much Ultima) controlles/controlled lots of colonies is pretty much irrelevant, imho (leaving aside the fact that colonisation is an outdated principle, but ok). Do however tell me, what excatly does a patriotary superiority feeling, being the 4th power in the world and all, bring about besides extremism, fascism and fundamentalism? Let me sum it up maybe.. Congo, India, pakistan, Israel.. Yes , I said Congo, yes. Exactly.

To put it another way, cuz I don't want to be patronising and all, we *do* want Britain in the Euro, but the UK is afraid to simply join forces and give up it's historical rooted Empire-feeling. We understand but we think it's a missed opportunity. Lately there's only one law: "compete or become". And that's all, folks.

"Wait and see", says Captain Blake.

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[Khazunga]

I can't confirm your de facto barriers for mobility. Language is certainly no problem, and cultural difference is small enough to be an incentive rather than a deterrent.

I'm Portuguese, and I can say that Portuguese usually speak two foreign languages -- English and French. Couple that with the language proximity to Italian and Spanish (enough to get you started, if you travel there), and you've opened up a great part of Europe.

I'd say that Europeans tend to settle when they get older (mid-thirties). But that's natural. It's impossible for 100% of the population to be mobile. Younger people tend to grab the oportunity to travel. I don't know the US, but I'd guess the average red-neck Texan won't move to Sillicon Valley too quickly either,

Re:Cash movements

[spudnic]

How do they determine how much money a country can produce? Can a tiny country produce the same as a large country? Will more of the coins from smaller countries that are produced in lower numbers be taken out of circulation by collectors?

.

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[the eric conspiracy]

Is there a major irony deficiency here?

Yes, there is. The deficiency is about Europeans carping about American ignorance while they still manage to elect governments with strong Neo-Nazi elements.

Reading comments from Europeans denegrating freedom in the US is ridiculous. You are looking at a nation populated by ex-Europeans seeking escape from political,economic and religious oppression in Europe.

If some Europeans find parts of the American culture distasteful, it probably isn't because they're xenophobic.

Perhaps, but we are still talking about a Europe intent on ignoring a European government bent on genocide a mere two years ago. Some of the leaders of this nation are currently undergoing trial for war crimes as I write this.

Hooray for the Europeans putting aside centuries of war and national rivalry. It is an example to the world.

I would be very happy to see Europe united and at peace. Both my father and grandfather had to fight in wars in Europe; there are American peacekeeping troops my sons' age serving in Europe today.

If some Europeans find parts of the American culture distasteful, it probably isn't because they're xenophobic. It's probably because they tried it and didn't like it.

I am sure that some Europeans don't like the inroads American culture has made into their society. However I am sort of puzzled by the apparent feeling of European governments that they must legislate to insure local content in their media. What sort of freedom is this? Shouldn't Europeans be free to listen or watch whatever they please?

Re:Ahhh...a one Euro coin, not a dollar...

[Micah]

I agree totally. I often ask my bank for them when cashing checks (and they usually do have a few, if not a whole roll). They're so convenient in Canada -- you can go into a fast food joint and pay for your burger and Pepsi with pocket change, without pulling out your wallet.

But it's been well over a year since I've received one in change. That's pretty annoying.

Unlike previous posts though, most people I've talked to DON'T seem to like them, saying they're too heavy. I guess it will take time.

Re:that small change comes in handy when you're br

[John_Booty]

That's a pretty smart idea, 10 out of 10 points for ingenuity, to be sure. On the other hand, I'm going to say, negative several million points for the smack use, if you're talking about heroin and you're not kidding, which is entirely possible.

It

[j7953]

You don't say swiss francs? I also use US$, and even those from the US frequently do so, to avoid confusion with Australian and Canadian dollars.

Also

Re:Simple Answer

[Zeinfeld]

If Britain joined the Euro, then the banks would not be able to charge 4% (or more) for changing the money used to pay for all our imports (food) and all our exports). Ie the banks would no longer be able to tax us 8% of our GNP.

In the first place your math is off, you are double counting.

in the second, the fraction of GNP that is imported or exported at all is not 100% (try 40) and of that much is third-party trade that does not touch the UK at all (i.e. the UK port shippers Ware selling to the USA). The proportion of UK trade with the Eurozone is much smaller still

thirdly, commercial exchange rates are nowhere near 4% which is pretty high even for tourist rates

I may agree with you conclusion but I see no excuse for a deceitful argument, or are you one of the Tory moles paid by Smith sq. to write garbage in Internet chat rooms so that other plants can trump it? The name Dr spin and your inability to tell the truth suggests so.

It's two different languages

[j7953]

(Sorry, hit enter too early on my previous reply.)

It's too different languages. In German, "US Dollars" are called "Amerikanische Dollar." The same way, in English, "Deutsche Mark" (and yes, that actually is the official name, it was never named just "Mark") is "Deutschmark." What's wrong about that?

Re:Congrats to the Brits

[MtViewGuy]

I know one thing though: American tourists in Europe are going to love the Euro, since you only need to exchange it once from the US dollar to use it in the majority of Europe.

This saves one of the biggest hassles of European tourism, namely having to exchange national currencies multiple times.

Re:This discussion is two years to late ;-)

[stripes]

Wrong. The couldn't after January 1st, 1999.

Sure they could, they just back out of the deal. Now, or really in a few short months, they would have to somehow re-issue the old currency. Very hard.

Technically, it is Deutsche Mark

[Ethelred Unraed]

As a matter of fact, the official name is "Deutsche Mark" (so it says on the banknotes). This is to differentiate them from the earlier Reichsmark of the Imperial/Weimar Republic/NSDAP days and the so-called "Ostmark" (i.e. "eastern Marks") of the former East Germany.

FWIW I still have some 1,000,000 RM notes around here somewhere from the late Weimar Republic period -- from 1931, I think. Ain't I special.

In everyday language, yes, people in Germany just say "Mark", with no difference between singular and plural. But in the same way people say "US dollars" as opposed to "Canadian dollars", so too do people say "Deutsche Mark" (which is often corrupted to "Deutschmark").

After all, the abbreviation for marks *is* "DEM" or "DM"...

Cheers,

Ethelred

hmmm what? Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[piecewise]

> When a country can't control its own monetary policy, it is more likely a symptom of a serious problem, not a cause.

Huh?
Wouldn't the "serious problem" be the cause?
I thought everything happened because of a cause. Isn't that the definition of cause?

Oh well...

Most importantly, it works for pizza

[Ethelred Unraed]

I ordered a pizza tonight and paid for it in Euros (€5.80 to be exact). And the delivery guy was surprised and amused -- we were the first people to pay in Euros today (he had to carry around two change purses, one for DM, one for Euros).

Goody. I can claim to be the first guy to have bought a pizza with Euros in my city. (Well, okay, maybe not...)

So hey, maybe the economy will go to hell, but at least I can buy my extra cheese pizza.

Cheers,

Ethelred

A few points

[Kallahar]

It should be noted that all the mentioned currencies have had their exchange rate fixed to the Euro since 1999. Now is only the first time that people have actually been able to touch the new money.

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[Teun]

You are partially right, movement in Europe is not as accepted on the same scale as it is in the US, but it is possible.

Some examples:
In Holland we have a strained labour marked and quite a few Brits are working here, mainly in shipbuilding and industry.

And the Dutch construction industry has been trying to get unemployed German builders to come over but that's not easy due to quite different building practises and the exelent social security in Germany

F the USA

[SubtleNuance]

vive l'Europe!

Yes, indeed. Happy New year Brothers.

My question is; How does Canada Join the E.U.?

Europe seems to be going in the right direction...how do we come astride????

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[mce]

I would suggest that you try thinking though the context of your statements before engaging in ignorant-Europe FUD.

Many more people understand and even speak multiple languages here in Europe than the average American can even start to imagine. And the percentage of people who don't do so is falling all the time.

Besides, it's not because people in Detroit and Dallas all speak American english that they move around just as easily as you imply. There are many more reasons than language to stick around in the same area.

Agreed.

[mindstrm]

But I think that's largely cosmetic. I traveled around europe... exchanging currency wasn't what I'd call a hassle.. it was just something you had to do (along with finding a hotel, finding food, finding a party, etc..).
Of course.. I guess I'm not an American tourist.. so maybe my standards of convenience are different.

I found the different currencies part of the fun.

Thanks.

[mindstrm]

Actually, Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and uses the British Pound Sterling.

Ireland uses the Euro (formerly the Irish Pound, or 'Punt')

Re:The real reason the Euro is BAD NEWS

[uradu]

Well, maybe they should stick to hardware reviews, instead of quoting figures published by a communist government as hard facts. That "article" was about as substantial as a mid-summer night's dream. Go check the CIA figures, or The Economist or some other more credible source, where the employee's day job is actually in a relevant field.

-

Re:The real reason the Euro is BAD NEWS

[uradu]

My German twaddle to your jingoistic British Empire wet dream anyday, AC!

-

So what do you think makes a republic then?

[mindstrm]

republic (r-pblk)
n.

a) A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
b) A nation that has such a political order.

A republic is a type of political order, or a nation using such an order. Eire certainly fits this description. If you think otherwise.. what kind of nation is Eire? Empire? Kingdom? Territory? Nope, it's a Republic.

The really amazing thing:

[uradu]

most noise and fanfare about the Big-Brother-EU comes from citizens of the leading Big Brother state in the world, the country that brought you the total video surveillance society, America's salesman of Echelon to Europe, in fact the country that introduced the very notion of Big Brother to the world: the UK.

-

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[aprentic]

Q: What do you call someone who speaks three languages?
A: Trilingual.
Q: What do you call someone who speaks two languages?
A: Bilingual.
Q: What do you call someone who speaks one language?
A: American.

Not all Europeans are polyglots but a huge number are. Your hypothetical Parisian likely speaks German. If not they probably speak English and could get a job in Germany on that.
It may be easier to move from Detroit to Dallas but it's not much more difficult to move from Paris to Berlin.

Re:When the rest of the world switch to the Euro ?

[El Cabri]

Well actually it would make sense.

Unlike the dollar, the euro is constructed as a multi-state currency, and many thirld world countries that have dollarized their economies, but still make more business with Europe than they do with the US, might adopt the euro, or the peggind of their currency to the euro. Do you imagine the Fed and the US government concerting their monetary policy to take into account the interests of Brasil and Argentina ? I don't, but I can imagine the ECB letting them in, as a partnership with spain and portugal for example.

Re:The real reason the Euro is BAD NEWS

[csbruce]

The Euro is an undemocratic currency.

All central bankers are appointed; none are elected. Monetary policy is too important to be subjected to the usual corruptions of pandering to the incoherent will of the ignorant masses.

Re:The Euro is fourth-dimensionally foolish

[csbruce]

I think it's a really stupid idea, and will end in tears or war.

Economic integration is a strong factor in preventing wars, not starting them. Why invade another country when you can get its riches merely by trading? After WW2, the elite of the world got together and said "Never again!", and globalism was born.

With 300-million people on board, the EU will be able to go toe-to-toe with the US economy. As a US citizen, you will be mildly effected by this, as the world outside the US has become a little more competitive, and you, reciprocally, a little less so.

In response, the US has joined free-trade zone of the Organization of American States. This zone has a greater population than the (present) euro-zone, though, besides Canada with a relatively small population, the OAS includes mostly third-world and emerging nations with massive debts.

The long-term prospects for the EU are excellent.

Re:The real reason the Euro is BAD NEWS

[EnglishTim]

GDP isn't a particularly good measurement, as it doesn't take into account the size of the country.

GDP per Capita is much better. Interestingly Luxembourg comes out on top followed by the USA. The UK comes in at 20 (for the 2000 stats)

Re:Ahhh...a one Euro coin, not a dollar...

[csbruce]

Look north for a view on how well a $1 coin can suceed. Canada's been useing them over a decade now.

Of course, there is a significant cultural difference between Canada and America in changing currency. Canada is more like Pepsi in that the flavor is tweaked every time you turn around. The styles of the bills have changed at least five times in the past 30 years and I don't think the mint has printed the same set of coins for any two years in a row in the past decade. There must have been (literally) forty different styles of quarters over the past five years.

America is like Coca-Cola in that any attempt to change the flavor results in cries of bloody murder.

Re:Nightmarish "Progress"

[vidarh]

Neither is required for the Euro to succeed. Within half a year none of the currencies replaced by the Euro will be legal tender anymore anywhere. That means that the 12 countries using Euro all will require payment of taxes in Euro, and practically all trading in those countries will occur in Euro.

This is not a toy currency - it is a currency that now has a market as large as the US market, and within a few years massively larger as new countries join the EU and accept the Euro.

Re:hmmm what? Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[PurpleBob]

Not really. The problem is you wanted 'cause' to replace 'symptom', but it could equally well replace 'serious problem'. No fallacies involved, just ordinary English ambiguity.

Re:Ah Punt was pegged to de pound tilll the Euro c

[biglig2]

Bollocks! The Punt was a completely independant currency. However. most Irish shops are quite happy to allow you to pay in sterling at parity exchange; due to the fact that fleecing idiot brit tourists is always pleasant ;-)

Real rate has varied over the years. The prevalance of gas smuggling (I speak here in American, mindful of our core audience; the rest f you know I mean petrol) would suggest a good understanding of the rates.

Re:More notes from Frankfurt

[hughk]

Just went into Frankfurt today to pick a visa for a short break in Egypt. The Egyptian consulate was only accepting Euros. Two persons were sent back to get some Euros before they could submit their visa applications. The price increased!!!!!!

Re:Congrats to the Brits

[joss]

This is rated in PPP$. Purchasing power parity is hard to measure.

eg, a train ticket for a 100 mile journey in India is a lot cheaper than in the UK, but it is a very different experience. In India, the train may be crowded and unreliable while in England, oh, wait, nevermind....

Re:The Euro is here, i can feel it in my wallet.

[uebernewby]

In the last couple of months general prices in the Netherlands were raised bij 15%.

Add to this the price increase we had in jan. 2001 when they upped VAT, and it almost seems as if the Dutch government *wants* inflation.

The rationale for a common currency

[pkaral]

There are two main reasons for implementing the common currency - political and economic. Although the economic might be important (think in hundred billion dollar terms of potential efficiencies), the political have been the most important motivation.

The political goals behind the Euro are, of course, the often-cited "ever closer union". Many people think that a "United States of Europe" model, much along the lines of the USA, would be a good thing. Such a development goes hand in hand with tearing down the barriers for commerce, travel, cultural exchange and relocation of people and businesses. The whole EU Common Market project has been doing this explicitly for the last 6 years, and implicitly since the eighties. There are many arguments for and against such a European Federations, the most vocal opponents cite nationalism or the loss of local governance/influence, whilst the advocates usually talk about economic benefits, European identity and the need for transnational coordination to tackle global environmental issues etc.

The economic goals are basically to remove wasteful practices and increase productivity through increased competition and specialization. To deal with those individually:

Wasteful practices: A lot of resources in Europe are used for tackling currency translations of different sorts, ranging from exchange bureaus to expensive accounting consultants and accounting software development. This might sound marginal, and it is indeed way beyond one percent of GDP, but when applied to economies of this size it still adds up to triple-digit billions (Euro or US, take your pick). There is also a lot of (costly) risk taking will be removed.

Increased competition: Especially in the smaller countries, local markets can be so small that they don't support enough suppliers (or buyers) to ensure good competition. This leads to monopolistic behavior, and hurts the economies in terms of lost production and mis-allocation of production resources. By removing barriers to cross-border tenders, competition (and thereby efficiency) is increased.

Specialization: Because the Germans are better at making cars than the Swiss, while the Swiss are better at making cheese, it makes sense if the Swiss make cheese for the Germans and the Germans make cars for the Swiss. This is called specialization, and occurs within economies as well as between them (in fact, specialization is the main reason why e.g. currency, the corporation and industrialization have been so important for the economic development in our history). Specialization between economies is realized through trade, which will be facilitated by the common currency.

The cons: The economic cons are well-known, but hard to quantify. Basically, the main problem is that with a common currency comes (by definition) a common monetary policy. Monetary policy needs to be adjusted to the business cycle. The cost of the common currency will be incurred when different policies are needed in different parts of the EU, e.g. if boom in Ireland requires a contractionary policy (high interest rates) while recession in Germany requires stimulation (low interest rates). This has been experienced by the US, when Chicago (car industry) was in recession while California (high-tech etc.) was booming, and the Fed had no way to respond to this situation.

The gravity of this problem is determined by how different the business cycle is within the common currency region, which again is determined by the mobility of resources (notably including labor resources). It is widely accepted that European workers are, at least at present, less likely to move to other countries than Americans are to move to other states. Therefore, this problem is likely to be bigger in Europe than in the US. Whether this will eat up all the economic benefits is not predictable with present analytic tools, and only time will show. Most economists seem to be in favor of the Euro, though.

pk

Re:Simple Answer

[Zeinfeld]

You forget the dreaded (and actually rather expensive) international transfer fees, which are going to get eliminated within the Euro zone.

Actually the cost of inter bank settlement in the EU has nothing to do with currencies. It is the dependence on the very expensive SWIFT VAN that is the cause of high costs.

This will undoubtedly be dealt with, but the solution will be to replace SWIFT and any such network would as a matter of course go for the much more lucrative UK/US transfer market regardless of what currencies were in use.

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[DrXym]

Yes, it's easy to work in any country in the EU. I myself upped roots from the UK and now live and work in Ireland. Aside from getting a new social security number, it was pretty much routine. I have French friends who work in the UK and Ireland with similar ease.

Obviously it helps that you speak the language of the country you're going to, but its surprising how quickly you'll pick up a language by working there.

Re:One simple reason why it won't work:

[slim]

Q: What do you call someone who speaks one language?

A: American.

Hmm, I'm British, and I have personally met US citizens who are monoglot English speakers, monoglot Spanish speakers, monoglot Polish speakers (actually I only met the English-speaking son of a mother who he told me only spoke Polish).

Look in the right places and you'll find huge numbers of bilingual Americans; mostly English/Spanish speaking, I'd guess.

DING FLOP BIPS

[leuk_he]

He tried and failed.

N is for Netherlands. But of course he is from there so it does not have to be named.

Re:Are we becoming like star trek? I hope not!

[Picass0]

A One World Government is a bad idea. There are many people in the world who don't like America (in case you haven't been paying attention) and I would prefer they not have a voice in ruling my life.

I don't care what your stripes are, liberal or conservative. If you feel like Florida was a bad way to run an election, wait until you try to have your vote in a world election (if the World decides YOU get a vote). You will have fraud on a scale never before seen. Take everything that's screewed up in the UN an magnify it by a 6 billion.

No thanks. I like the United States of America. It's not perfect, but it's better than most people give credit.

Star Trek shaceships are cool. But it's UFP is oversimplified to the point of being trite.

Doesn't have to be extra-terrestrial

[Cato]

You are ignoring the threat of non-state actors such as al Qa'ida, who are enough of a threat to governments all round the world that they are one driver for global cooperation and (perhaps) ultimately world governance - see http://www.nonzero.org/terror.htm for more discussion of this. As technology makes it easier and cheaper for almost anybody to kill large numbers of people, global cooperation will become essential to counteract this.

Re:The Euro is fourth-dimensionally foolish

[geekoid]

With 300-million people on board, the EU will be able to go toe-to-toe with the US economy. As a US citizen, you will be mildly effected by this, as the world outside the US has become a little more competitive, and you, reciprocally, a little less so.

sure, on paper.
The global market buys from whoever has what they want at the best prices.
The thing that the US produces that people want, are still only available in the US, so they still have to come to the US.

The purpose of the euro is maintaining the status quo of the controlling parties. I.E. Rupport Murdoch.

You can make a lot of money manipulating exchange rates. That allows corporations to compete with the existing large corporations.

By making one currency, this allows the entrenched to stay entrenched and to ensure there legacy in the WTO. BTW the WTO board will be the world government. This is obvious when you relize that the WTO "rules" come before individual country laws.

I was a programmer for a bank in an african company, we createed a system that bypassed certian entrenched banking methods, man there was hell to pay. That was when I relize every move made by any large monetary system is only made to keep people in power.
Do you think the people who put upo the money to back the euro idea are doing it because its a good thing for the consumer? or because that can mae money from it?

Simple answer

[overunderunderdone]

Read you question again slowly and you will see that you have already answered it.

Re:The real reason the Euro is BAD NEWS

[uradu]

> Why do you all want us so badly? Is your twaddle that hot?

Well, yes it is, but that's another story. The question is, who exactly is forcing the UK to do anything they don't want to? Who sued the inch-measuring and pound-weighing shop keeper(s)? It sure wasn't Hans Krautburger from Frankfurt, it was the Brits themselves. I'm afraid you're your own worst enemy.

-

Re:Cash movements

[gorilla]

A decade would be a short timescale for a coin, except for very low value ones like pennies. 3 out of 4 quarters in my pocket are 20 years old or more (the oldest is 1974). In the UK, until about 10 years ago, it was common to see pre-war 2 bob bits.

currency boards

[hawk]

also, please note that currency boards are used when the government has already abused the currency, typically after long hyperinflations. Dollarization would generally better meet the intended objectives, though without assistance from the U.S. (accepting the old currency as whatever fraction of a dollar, and trading) it may be impractical to obtain enough dollars.

hawk, economist

Re:Ahhh...a one Euro coin, not a dollar...

[gorilla]

The styles of the bills have changed at least five times in the past 30 years

Most currencies have changed their styles over the years, it's an anti-fraud system. What was incredibly difficult for a forger to do in 1970 can be done by anyone with a colour photocopier in 1990, so the anti-fraud system has to be changed. For the quarters, there was a special millenium monthly issue of different designs. This is very similar to the US's ongoing state quarters, where each state is getting a design for the quarter.

Where the Hell did this come from?

[Galvatron]

Powerful economies help everyone. I am American, and would be thrilled to have the EU really come together and kick economic ass. I don't think it's likely to happen, the EU is too restrictive for nations that have been independent for hundreds of years. The language barriers will be painful. The only thing that binds the EU together seems to be this desire to "beat" the US, as though we were trying to keep them down.

I believe that the EU will come apart within the next 10 years, and when it does, it will be messy.

Re:So what ASCII value will the Euro be?

[isorox]

That looks like a T with an o right beside it...

Commonly known as the word "to" :)

prices ARE free in EU

[clarkie.mg]

The prices are as free in EU than in US. What is not allowed is to fool customers by setting different prices in and in local currency. This was enforced in some places by freezing the prices for a limited time. You must see it as a very exceptional practice. In other places, the retailers themselves chose to freeze prices to keep the trust of their customers.

Don't forget that in a free market, there are rules anyway so that the freedom of everyone (not only the merchants but also the customers) is real. That is why there are anti-trust laws for example. And in that case, it seems that the US are not very good at keeping their market free (from microsoft monopoly, I mean).

To be more precise, I would say that the US are very good at enduring the freedom of those who have the most money or weapons but not for the poors or the weaks.

homeless

[clarkie.mg]

I agree with you that one must work to earn living but when you are homeless, very poor or ill, it is very hard or impossible to get a job so that even the most decided person would fail.

I saw the other day someone in Paris who was too cold to even walk. What are you supposed to tell him ? Hey get a job ? Silly. Fortunately, an ambulance came and took charge of him regardless he had no credit card.

My point is that some people fail in our societies (their fault or not) and it is a duty of those societies to help them overcome their failures, espescially when the society is rich enough to do it.

Giving money away to the lazy is not the solution, of course but do not let the opportunists hide the benefits of a system.

Re:homeless

[tdye]

On this, I'll agree with you completely. It's a good function for government to rescue those who have failed utterly, or who are unable to sustain themselves... but it's dishonest and (IMHO) even cruel to continue handing out assistance to those same people instead of teaching them, training them, and getting them off welfare whenever and however possible.

Re:Cash movements

[Raindeer]

A bit late, since I spent New Years in Vienna. :-)

The coins will be shipped between te various countries, back to their homeland. I don't really know why, but you might be able to look the reasoning somewhere.

who manipulates the market ?

[clarkie.mg]

You can't retain the ability to arbitrarily manipulate commerce like that and expect a powerful united economy to rival the USA.

Excuse me but if the US are so strong and so keen to enforce free commerce, why do they tax 20% steel imports ?

http://www.uksteel.org.uk/nw73.htm
http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/speeches/ct-dg022599 .html

Re:who manipulates the market ?

[tdye]

Because the Japanese steel industry was dumping steel into the USA at obscenely low prices, and losing millions of dollars on the deals, in order to impact the US market and run US steelmakers out of business. In this effort, they were subsidized by the Japanese government, who was providing financial assistance so they wouldn't go bankrupt. In the US, we can't enact an import tax on goods from only one country unless they have certain other political restrictions already placed on them (Cuba for example), so we have to tax it all.

It was a punishment against Japan for trying to destroy the US steel market to their advantage. There's a big difference between regulating a free market system and combating a government-subsidized cartel acting in concert to demolish the industry of another country.

Besides all that, I never said the USA is perfect... but they're Constitutionally prohibited from the kind of manipulation that Europeans seem to favor and European markets seem not to survive without. I think that's a Good Thing.

Re:free market

[tdye]

A free market is the best path to a good economy... history consistantly shows that free trade and markets free from govt. intervention produce the best results for the most people.

Certainly, there are a host of things that are more important than a free market. My point here, and one that I think we keep missing, is that there's a deeper concept which Europeans very often miss completely (man, it's really hard to articulate this... I'm trying my best here): the govt. has no place meddling in the private transactions of a retailer, regardless of whether or not the beurocrats believe the people must be protected from them. It's not the job of the govt. to shield one segment of the populace from another, equally law-abiding part... especially when the only real reason must be their own political arses. Who would the people blame if they get screwed on the price of a roast? The govt! Therein lies the entire problem, and that's why it's practically impossible to break the cycle... and why so many people in the USA fight against the beginnings of it.

If I get overcharged for a steak because of the Euro changeover, it is, IMHO, my own damned fault, not the fault of the Irish parliament for switching to the Euro. But to your average Irishman, it's the govermnemt's fault! They will go right on and curse the Euro, and the shopkeeper will join in even while he's screwing his customer. And this is why European govts act to protect the people, and interfere in markets. You'll never hear the local TD tell a voter that it's their own damned fault for paying too much, and maybe he ought to take his business elsewhere... he'll go on a tirade about the evils of price gouging and how something must be done about it.

IMHO, things like freedom from unwanted intervention by my govt. are more important that prosperity. I think it's the job of govt to create conditions in which I have a reasonable chance of success in whatever I might try, provided I have the skills and put in the effort. It is NOT the job of the govt. to support me indefinitely me if I give up, nor is it the job of govt. to force other, successful people to support me in my decision to just be a long-term failure.

Lastly, and slightly off-topic; if the EU was founded by any other means than a consensus of citizens (NOT officials several steps removed from direct, regular accountability from the populace) who decided to join together to make the continent better, than it's dangerously close to an illegitimate governing body.

Is it really better to create a governing body with no popular accountability which has the power to severely restrict basic freedoms and commerce (like, I think this steak costs £5 today, not £4.50) because it's members decide they know best for the populace? What do you do when you don't like what the EU does? Tell your local official, who tells the minister, who tells the EU rep, who tells the other EU reps, who tell him to piss off. Then he tells the minister "no dice", who tells the local official "Sorry, not this time", who tells the people "What can I do, I'm just the local official!". (of course, if this isn't how it works, I'd love to be corrected.)

As always, I welcome responses... perhaps this wil help get to the meat of the issue here.

European economy

[Per Abrahamsen]

Actually, European economy grow stronger (and larger) than the US economy during the Reagan/Bush area. During the Clinton administration, US economy grow strong again, and actually surpassed Europe in the late 90'ties.

So "never" is inaccurate. The relative strength is approximately the same, seen over the last 30 years. Which indicates that idelogical dogmas has less effect than many people think, and the effect is probably negative most of the time, compared to a more pragmatic approach.

Re:European economy

[tdye]

That's a completely inaccurate statement, and I'd love to see the link that supports it. I can't wait to see which countries constitute 'Europe' for the purpose of getting those numbers, and how many EU countries aren't included in the counting.

Thats a serious level of counterfeiting!

[iainl]

I'm not going to bother arguing about the relative strength of the US Dollar and Sterling; after all your currency is already considered an international one for many business transactions. I _will_ be mildly alarmed that you appear to plan counterfeiting enough of them that you have to consider how much your fake Sterling would cause the currency to devalue!

Re:change the keyboard, change ASCII ...

[mikera]

Some of us who write code actually find those keys quite useful.....

Re:objection against the mod

[tdye]

I didn't get moderated... I'm just cool enough to post at +2

Re:free market

[tdye]

No. I can tell you exactly why: I trust my government more than corporations. That's because I vote for it of course. Ask yourself: how is it possible that you hate so much your governement, although you vote for it. What are the real reasons?
Americans generally don't hate government, but they have a deep-seated systemic distrust of it. This comes from the fact that we had to throw off a government system and construct a new one. Americans want their government to act in the spirit of that revolution, and we've designed a system that prevents the government from being able to interfere in the affairs of the people any more than is absolutely necessary to maintain order.
Now, that goal is of course a constant struggle and a constantly shifting balance.

In my view, Europeans tend to see their government as an engine for social reformatting, with a series of disasterous consequences as a result.
And we're not talking about corporations here... nobody trusts a corporation to be an engine for social change... they're supposed to be engines for making a profit. Nobody in the US expects a corp to better society (although it's nice when they do, which is pretty often). People in the US expect the people to better society.
Maybe it's a matter of size. It's almost better to talk about US State govt. when comparing to European national government. The US Federal government is different in structure and in philosophy from any European national system, in large part because it's designed to be a strong structural framework by which the "several States" can act in concert, a body which can resolve State disputes, and a system by which the people have protection from the potential for governmental abuse.
The idea of abuse of power seems not to enter the European mind... which is one reason, I suppose, why we differ in governmental systems so strongly.

Also, some regulation of industry is often necessary, but enforcing price controls on the entire retail market is IMHO WAAAAY over the top.

I prefer to be ruled by Spain, German, Danish type of laws, than American ones...
Perhaps this is a language issue, but I find your use of the word 'rule' very interesting. Americans prefer not to be ruled at all, whenever they can avoid it. The American system is designed such that the people rule themselves, and the system is designed to prevent tyranny by the govt. or the majority. Most European democracies are shaped such that the people pick which group they want to be ruled by, and surrender many protections and personal freedoms under the assumption that the ruling party's people know best. Talk about tyranny of the majority! Why in the world must I submit to being constantly filmed as a walk down a street, because you believe I might commit a crime!

The US system isn't "Free Markets and the consequences be damned!". But it does have, at it's core, a reverence for the rights of the individual. It is from this idea, described in the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence but not deriving from those documents, that the US system flows. The US system IS the solution to the tyranny (dictatorship was your word... I think tyranny fits better) of the majority. The free market economic system exists not as a solution to political problems, but as a seperate thing that the political system tries to avoid mucking around in as much as possible. It is, at it's root, the reverence for individual freedom that prevents the government from enacting price controls on local shopkeepers because the majority of people want things kept simple. Europe (and France in particular) does not share this bias toward the individual.
From where I stand, this is more than a little scary.

...nor are there dictators at the head of the EU.
Fair enough, but neither are there accountable representatives of the people at the head of the EU. Only a group which you hope will deal with you fairly, but against whom you have little defense should they do otherwise, especially if the national government and the ruling party remain uninterested in protecting your personal freedom.

It is NOT the job of the govt. to support me indefinitely me if I give up, nor is it the job of govt. to force other, successful people to support me in my decision to just be a long-term failure.

Wrong. It's the job of the governement, if people vote so.

No!
No, No, NO! It is WRONG to allow a greedy and lazy majority to deal out economic torture to a productive and successful minority. It is wrong to force a member of your society to offer up the fruits of his labor to support those who refuse to contribute to that society if he does not wish it.

You have to let people succeed or fail as they will, without enforcing 'medium-ness' on everyone, even if most everyone is happy with being medium. The only way to truly be fair is to not get involved. Any other path pits the society against itself and is necessarily unfair to someone. You end up making value judgements about who is hurt less by unfairness... but by extension, you're really deciding who's rights are more important. Everyone's rights should be equally important, and that means you have to protect the individual regardless of whether it sucks for everyone else in the country.

Re:hmmm what? Re:Picture of bills with US bill

[PurpleBob]

That's nice. Maybe when you learn to read, you can get an account and contribute something useful.