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LindowsOS Marches On
alphabet26 writes "I just received Lindow's 2001 Wrap-up e-mail, and it looks like they're still forging ahead regardless of the lawsuit Microsoft filed against them. In the update, CEO Michael Robertson included a letter in response addressed to Bill Gates, and also some screenshots of what the new LindowsOS will look like. He predicts the retail version will be available in the early months of 2002."
They should not cease their work until either they choose (i.e. if the market decides they are complete vapourware after all....), or until they are forced to, if a suitably independent judgement decides they are in fact infringing on an extant trademark.
Now the prime issues are will they actually get a decent useable product to market, and can they get suitably independent justice. Their adversary is one of the largest patrons of the legal trade after all...
jer
We may be human, but we're still animals
- Steve Vai
In the event the server is /.'ed, here's what it reads....
Via Fax and U.S. Mail
(425) 936-7329
Mr. Bill Gates
Chairman, Board of Directors
Microsoft Corporation
One Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA 98052
Re: Lawsuit Over Our Use of LindowsOS-Proposal for Settlement Discussions
Dear Mr. Gates:
I am writing Chairman to Chairman to discuss the lawsuit your company filed against our use of "LindowsOS" for the LINUX based operating system we are advertising and developing.
I also had the opportunity to read press accounts which state or imply that Microsoft wants to resolve the controversy "voluntarily" and out of court. I would welcome the opportunity to discuss personally a potential informal resolution of this matter. Please call me to discuss this option as soon as possible.
As I understand your lawsuit, you say purchasers will be confused because of our use of "LindowsOS" and Microsoft's use of "WINDOWS" on its "XP PROFESSIONAL" and "XP HOME" operating systems. The corresponding and quite different logos placed next to each other are set out below for your convenience.
[image] [image]
As you can see, the distinct labeling and the differences of our products compel the conclusion that there will be no consumer confusion. We can also create different labeling if necessary or appropriate.
Lindows.com does not yet sell a product-at this point all we are doing is advertising. As you also are undoubtedly aware, when our operating system is ready for distribution, we plan on selling our LINUX based operating systems over the Internet to very sophisticated and discriminating customers who would not be confused that our product was created or sponsored by Microsoft. In contrast, you are selling about 90% of your operating systems to sophisticated OEM purchasers while about 10% are sold as CDs on store shelves. I can assure you that Lindows.com has not done and will do nothing to cause consumer confusion or trade upon Microsoft's goodwill. All we are trying to do is give consumers a distinct choice.
Needless to say, the lawsuit came as a complete surprise. For months, we have been very public with regard to our plans. Detailed descriptions of our operating system have been extensively disclosed and written about in advertising and media. Yet we were given no notice whatsoever of your displeasure with our use of the "LindowsOS" mark or slogan until the lawsuit was filed one business day before Christmas, alleging it was a prohibited use of your mark or slogan "Windows."
We are additionally puzzled because there was never any contact between our companies prior to the lawsuit. I would have thought that a phone call or fax, or even a formal cease and desist letter, would be a more appropriate first step to get to a voluntary resolution. On the other hand, I am glad to read in your court papers and press accounts that you are not trying to stop or prevent our company from launching our LindowsOS product-you just want us to stop using the mark or slogan "LindowsOS". That's good to hear because, like you, we are working hard to innovate and offer consumers a choice of novel and resourceful products.
I look forward to meeting with you to discuss the outcomes which work for both sides. It is my sincere interest to focus on delivering a unique product and not to get dragged into a lengthy court battle, so there is no need for any lawyers to meet with us.
Unfortunately, because you filed your complaint one business day before Christmas and have demanded a response in the shortest possible legal time frame (hearing set for January 11, 2002), we do not have much time to discuss this matter. Therefore, I would like to request that you continue the hearing on the preliminary injunction so that we could resolve this issue before we get bogged down in a quagmire of litigation.
I look forward to speaking with you as soon as possible.
Very truly yours,
Michael Robertson
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Lindows.com, Inc.
cc: Steve Ballmer, CEO
Dear Bill,
Why didnt you talk to us before you sued? Either way we'll keep doing what we're doing till someone in the court tells us to stop.
Have a nice day.
BOSTON SUCKS!
Looking at those screenshots of outlook running...
:-)
Oh joy! Here I was, reading my email in linux and feeling all left out when one of those little email worms hit and my friends using outlook were panicking! Now I'll be able to join in on the fun...
Assuming that's not just windows with a few GUI mods.
Humorless sig goes here.
I am in the corporate world. I have no problem getting PHB's to use linux in certain environments.
Right tool for the right job buddy, that's all there is to it. These guys are wasting their time.
"Also, Lindows screenshots look surprisingly good, apparently it runs IE and MS Word, something no Linux GUI has yet been able to do to my knowledge"
Oftentimes Windows barely manages to run them itself!
Humorless sig goes here.
looks to me like win2k + object desktop.
That, of course, is the ultimate goal.
If they can truly sell their product as a 'Windows replacement' rather than just a highly tweaked Linux distro, they'll be able to do some business in the Windows Desktop market.
Of course, there were some pretty glaring problems in the screen shots, such as the missing text on the IE buttons. This would be enough to upset people I've done tech support for:
"But it's supposed to say 'Mail'! Why does it say 'Mai'?!"
But, all in all, I've yet to see so clean a Wine screenshot.
Good luck guys. You're starting with both feet in the gutter, especially with the lawsuit, but I think you might actually have a chance.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Berto
If anything all this is - is some very good Wine work. I very much doubt in the time LindowsOS has been in development they have been able to write a windows compatbiltiy layer or something like it. I would like the commend the Wine people out there they are doing a great job and should keep up the great work. But as for LindowsOS this looks like a ploy to try to get Linux Newbies to switch over because it has some fancy styling and Wine installed. IF they can prove by randomly installing any windows based software that there setup works then I might become a beleaver until then im sticking with my Debian.
"How much will LindowsOS cost? For $99 users can obtain LindowsOS along with the promise that Lindows.com will work hard to give consumers real value. Your satisfaction, is always assured, since all Lindows.com products come with a money-back, satisfaction guarantee. Creating a compatible, stable, easy-to-use OS isn't an easy job, and Lindows.com is committed to remain in this market for many years to come. This fee will help Lindows.com continue to provide support and future updates to LindowsOS."
They're charging $99 for this. How ridiculous. OEM versions of Genunie Windows cost about the same... and they are guaranteed to work with _all_ Windows software. This is like saying, "Well, a could get a Genuine Mac built by Apple, or I could get a clone for the same price." That's absurd.
"At the core of Lindows.com is a new operating system called LindowsOSTM, a modern, affordable, easy-to-use operating system with the ability to run both Windows® and Linux® software."
Revolutionary new OS called LindowsOS? Really. Kinda looks like a skinned version of KDE running atop Linux to me. Maybe they'll mask the bootup console output with a nice graphic. This is completely ridiculous for two reasons: 1) It costs about the same amount as Windows, which is guaranteed to run all Windows apps. 2) Linux is free. It's used (mostly) by programmers for things that suit their needs. Last time I checked $99 + $0 = $99. So... use Genuine Windows to run Windows apps... and boot into Linux to use Linux apps. If you're a die-hard Linux user, there's WINE anyway (which I think is what this is based on). If you're a die-hard Windows user, boot into Linux when you have to. End of story.
Damn it, I forgot the new address after the @home shakout...
Again, here is a mirror of the screenshots.
Screenshot 1
Screenshot 2
kawai
I agree, there is a credibility issue. The fact that these people claim to be doing in almost no time what has taken wine several years. Lets analyze the situation...
.. ..... ROFLMAO
Case 1) Lindows is actually Windows2000,XP, etc with vmware or the like running linux on demand.
Case 2) Lindows is actually Windows2000,XP, etc with a custom linux emulator that runs apps on demand, seamlessly.
Case 3) Lindows is Linux running VMware for a Windows desktop.
Case 4) Lindows is Linux running CodeWeaver's Wine to launch windows apps on demand.
Case 5) Lindows is Linux running a new windows emulator or API that we haven't previously heard of.
Case 6) Lindows is a new OS, that is both windows and linux and runs elf and exe executables natively.
Case 7) Lindows is a hoax.
Now the breakdown.
Cases 1 and 2 are absurd. They would have reason to fear microsoft if they are just renaming and reselling Microsoft's product. However these solutions give the ultimate in Windows software compatibility (Joe Sixpack translation : my games will run really smoothly).
Case 3 is possible, but apps would run slowly, no OpenGL support, games would be lousy on VMware. Best chance of Software compatibility. Plus they have to license VMWare.. And why not just go with a known good linux distro and do this. The product would offer no market distinction.
Case 4 is possible. Games would run better than on VMWare with OpenGL and DirectX support. Some apps would be broken though. Once again, this is no different that what could be done with SuSE, debian, mandrake, slackware, etc...
Case 5 is possible though unlikely. I'm sure there would be some leakage of information if a superior wine had been brewing for the last couple of years.
Case 6
Case 7 is certainly possible. I'll not be the fool and discredit the claims that they are making on their website.
My guess is that Case 7 is correct, and Case 5 is a close second. Case 1 is possible if the company had the balls and stupidity to repackage and resell a Microsoft product.
-fc
.
. echo -e \\04 >
Mr. Bill Gates
Chairman, Board of Directors
Microsoft Corporation
One Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA 98052
Is that line under Microsoft Corporation the address or Microsoft's motto?
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
I hit the screenshot link and got "file not found". A blank screen that does nothing? Looks just like Windows ME!!!! Good job guys!!!
Zing!
do not read this line twice.
1. the pricing will be
2. they won't contribute back to GPL. They are here to make money you know.
I see two possible outcomes :
1. They succeed. We are all morons because they did in a few months what we (open source developers) couldn't do in ten years.
2. They fail. We are all deeply fucked because evryone will laugh saying : "linux is not for the desktop", "windows is easier", etc.
Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education. Bertrand Russel
Indeed. Looks like KDE with a Windows theme. I'd forgotten how ugly Windows is.
The real test will be how well it runs those Windows apps. My cynical half says there's no way he got significantly better windows emulation than stock Wine or CodeWeavers, but part of me really hopes he's succeeded. We'll find out soon enough I suppose.
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
the point is that it gives people a chance to migrate.
This is not unlike Mac OS X and Mac OS 9(great, I said Mac, there's a mod down, huh?)
While i'm migrating from 9 to X -
I get to see and feel the power of a competently built OS
I get to see that my machine does not crash every few minutes
i get to see how great it is to run 20 apps all at the same time and not crash the thing
i still get to crutch back to my apps that i love and won't give up just yet.
This is the point of Lindows.
I've been able to be 100% Mac OS X since early January 2001 thanks to Classic. I am now only two apps away from being Classic-free on my machine (PhotoShop and First Class Client). And it only took a year.
I think Lindows is a great idea - I think that if they can make WINE function as well as Apple made the Classic environment (nearly-seamless cut/copy/paste, drag-n-drop, etc) The screenshots seem to indicate this as their goal.
They will succeed in their target area if they succeed in their goals - companies who want to save $200 + licensing fees + fee to connect to the server on thier $500 computers.
My God - its more expensive for the SOFTWARE to run an all Windows operation now than it is to buy the hardware!
But you have to give people some means of getting to a Linux solution.. you can't drop them into it head first.. then you can start doing the transition from MS-only to MS-free... you just need that intermediate step.
That's Lindows.
(BTFW: the screenshots *are* faked - they show the GOAL of Lindows.. not what they have today - how is that so hard to understand? Do i have to draw a picture for you? Oh.. i guess it needs subtitles too.)
This thing is going to be a great stepping stone to get people to migrate off windows, and will set up LOD when the required apps - SunOffice 6.0, OpenOffice, etc - get made.
You have to move people gradually - they don't take well to violent shocks - that's how people made it from Windows 3.1 to XP - even though the OSes are NOTHING alike - the gradual change, plus enough backward compatibity got Microsoft to where they are now.
MS did DOS -> Windows 3.1 -> Windows 95 -> Windows 98 -> XP
Apple did 680x0 -> PPC, and they did it again with Mac OS -> Mac OS X.
Lindows is going to try to do Windows -> Linux + WINE (done right) -> Linux.
Its an idea who's time is come.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
Go, Jesse Jackson! Er, wait...
-Legion
One Way to rule them all
One Way to find them
One Way to squeeze them all
Of all the dough inside them.
I'm amazed at how much venom has spewed forth from this crowd over this little company. For those of you who seem to not get this idea
***THE POINT***
"My office runs outlook and IE, and I need to keep my palm in synch. But I've heard good things about that Linux operating system."
"Children need to explore the world of computing. While they've convinced me to switch from AOL to Earthlink, I don't think I could live without my copy of outlook."
"We've spent hundreds of dollars on software already, so while I hate Microsoft I guess I'm stuck using them."
They're NOT trying to get you to switch to Windows (though I wouldn't mind getting Dreamweaver to work. [ducks]). They're not here to fake screenshots. They're not trying to destroy all that makes Open Source good by commingling it with Windows. They're opening a migration path. If you have one app that you desperately need that only runs under windows, but you prefer or want to experiment with another operating system, you can. Connectix has been doing it for years with the Virtual PC for the Macintosh, and this is basically just a more integrated version of that (and one where Microsoft doesn't recieve unnecessary royalties). This is not going to take over the world, destroy linux or windows, but fill a necessary niche.
Good luck Lindows team, you have my support.
-Chris
The ______ Agenda
So can anyone prove that these aren't just screenshots of Windows 2000 with a stardock skin?
I can't prove it to you beyond doubt, but I know KDE when I see it, and this is it. The folder icon on the desktop is a dead giveaway (all the other icons seem to be customised, but this one has been left as the KDE default), as are the handles on the panel applets, which appear to be from Qt's built-in Windows style. Also, the window decorations (close/maximise/minimise buttons) are the KWin 'Redmond' style. Note the gradient on those buttons, Win2k's are flat. Note also the inconsistency between the applet handles on the panel and the toolbar handles in IE and Word - if nothing else this should prove that this isn't a WindowBlinds skin.
I have previously run both IE and Word successfully under WINE, and Notes is also supposed to work - yes, WINE even sets the right icons in the taskbar as the Lindows screenshots show.
So, it's pretty obvious to me that this is indeed Linux, and it's real. All it is is a distro with a slightly customized KDE and WINE setup to launch Windows apps. No great shakes, I can do all this already on my Debian box, and you can do it too on any distro that includes KDE and WINE.
If you still don't believe me, it'd be pretty easy to knock up similar screenshots under any of the major distros. Anyone fancy a go? I won't get a chance until I get home tomorrow...
If you're still not sure after all that, you're going to have to (gasp, shock, horror) actually sit down in front of a Linux box and see it in action yourself.
Although I haven't seen enough of Lindows to figure out whether they have anything, I certainly think this kind of project is feasible. Most people would say "Why not just use a normal distro and Wine?" Why? One reason: Tivo.
Tivo takes the base operating system and customizes it to suit one goal: being a PVR. I can barely get my Linux box to play VCDs reliably, and I consider myself a power user. However, Tivo gets to cut away all the cruft and options until they're left with a base system optimized for video recording and playback. The pieces are all solid, so they can make something fairly bulletproof in a short time.
So, if the stated goal of Lindows is narrow enough, it might work. Dvorak thinks that the goal should be to run Office, and I agree. Most Windows users I know run Office, AOL, and little else. For business applications, they don't even need AOL. (Well, they don't need it anyway, but you know what I mean.)
A cheap, pre-configured system that runs Office would be a market hit. Other applications could be "unsupported" without alienating many customers. Support a few popular Windows games later and you gain another market as well.
Like I said, who knows if they actually plan this. It certainly is a possibility, though.
~chris
Read the full text my book Perl for the Web
I can certainly see how "Lindows" would clearly infringe on a trademark of "Windows." But my recollection, from several years ago, was that microsoft was quite clear that the claimed trademark was for "Microsoft Windows," not "Windows," both because a simple windows trademark would have infringed on others, and because it was a term already in common usage for, uhhh, windowing on a microcomputer screen.
So I remain baffled as to what trademark is at issue--I see no chance that someone confuses "Lindows" and "Microsoft Windows"--unless someone is claiming that "Windows" is not common usage, which would undermine the trademark anyway . . .
hawk
But the freaking name is obviously a rip-off of Windows. There is no question that it would create market confusion. For him to claim otherwise is just nonsense. After all, why call it Lindows if you're not trying to piggyback on Windows?
It is obvious that the name makes a reference to Microsoft Windows. But that's not a violation of trademark; nor is being "a rip-off" enough to violate a trademark. It's only a violation if the name is likely to confuse anybody, which, clearly, it is not.
The name is meant to convey that the product is a combination of LINux and wINDOWS, which, indeed, it is (functionality-wise). Just like copyright does not prevent someone from copying a CD, trademark does not prevent someone from basing a name or a logo on another company's name or logo. Instead, copyright prevents someone from *distributing* that copied CD, and trademark prevents someone from choosing a name or logo so similar as to invite *confusion*.
The fact that people confuse such issues is a result of the fact that people think the rights due to the "owner" of Intellectual "Property" are at all akin to the rights due to the owner of real property, which they are not. In fact, it's too bad that the term "property" isn't trademarked, because it could sue "Intellectual Property" for definition-infringement and win!
Looks like Photoshop action to me.
Fot the record..
Xwindows was released MUCH before Windows 1.0 was out - it was on the first graphical workstations far beyond the PC got their graphics from Hercules or CGA graphics..
Hetz (Heunique)