XBox Defects Draw Ire

jeffy124 writes: "An article at CNN indicates that the XBox is having problems with defects. But the defects aren't the problem, the issue is lousy customer support from Microsoft's repair contractors, which is really what's more annoying to those who got defective units. Customer support has been giving out conflicting advice and some customers are having their support records lost."

Comments

Must be keeping the records in Access

[MrResistor]

That would explain why they're getting "lost" anyway. The support folks probably can't figure out how to search backwards. God I hate that software!

My Buddy's XBOX died.

[MikeDataLink]

My best friends XBOX died last week. He's already received a replacement. I'd say it took about two days.

My XBOX has been working flawlessly though. :)

Re:My Buddy's XBOX died.

[ImaLamer]

Don't forget the other thing that killed the DC: PSX.

PSX was out for a while, and the library of games reached about a million it seems when the DC was starting out. It wasn't that the games were great - many sucked! Even good games sucked, like Quake II.

PSX, from what I saw got all the shelf space [you DO need to pay for that] at major retailers, game 'shops' pushed PSX because they had so many games and their general love of Sony.

Even now I can see the PS2 killing Xbox and GC. Not because it's better or the games are greater or anything along those lines. It's marketing! When Wal-Mart dedicates 2/3rds of it's games case to Sony games, Sony will win.

When you walk into Funco Land and ask about that new GC and they laugh, point and yell saying you should get the PS2 - you might think twice.

The fall of the DC were two fold: Sony Fanboys, and No product exposure.

[in fact, I'm seeing more Sega commercials now than ever. If they would've kept making the broadband adapter, and going after those online sports games like World Series Baseball 2K1 etc - they wouldn't have had to go to software only business.]

Re:My Buddy's XBOX died.

[ImaLamer]

I already posted another response, but what competition from Nintendo?

They seemed to die off first.

Re:My Buddy's XBOX died.

[ImaLamer]

Exactly my point.

But the fanboys don't help. Some smaller shops don't take cash for shelf space. They put the games up that sell AND games that they think will sell.

SEGA is a big console name, although since Sony is a bigger name overall people were more willing to bet on PSX.

Let's not mention the fact stores were afraid to carry SEGA products after a few failed attempts. N64 didn't do to well, so expect retailers to be if'y on carrying Game Cubes by the thousands.

Re:My Buddy's XBOX died.

[ImaLamer]

Exactly, at Blockbuster and Hollywood you couldn't find stuff even if it was mainstream.

Thought they'd get this right...

[fanatic]

..after all they've been making TOYS for years!

Re:Thought they'd get this right...

[macpeep]

"..after all they've been making TOYS for years!"

The X-Box is made by Flextronics, not Microsoft, if that's what you were suggesting.

Re:Thought they'd get this right...

[hrieke]

Er, their OSes....

Re:Please, Blame it right

[MillionthMonkey]

They've done this for years, from the very beginning. They outsourced the original version of MS-DOS.

Great Christmas present?

[term0r]

The stakes are high for Microsoft, which shipped about 1.5 million Xboxes over the holidays.

And then in a later paragraph...

Microsoft sales and marketing director John O'Rourke said fewer than 1 percent of the consoles have proven faulty.

Thats a hell of a lot (15,000) of people with faulty Christmas presents really. I'm surprised there hasnt been more publicity than this if that many are faulty.

Have any slashdotters reading this actually had any experience with faulty XBoxes?

Re:Great Christmas present?

[ImaLamer]

I think the problem is that things AREN'T getting fixed.

I guess we expect some problems with these little PCs. My friend had to send his PSX to Nippon because it wouldn't work on Zenith {US} TVs. A console isn't as simple as we all think they are.

But still, I know that I'm M$ bashing. I can't help it. Windows advocates always point to Microsoft's customer support as a huge issue over other, well, free operating systems.

Sometimes software has bugs too.

Yes, and sometimes the company ignores it.

--

Why not exchange it at the store?

[DaSyonic]

I can't possibly understand why they would go through the trouble of calling customer support when they could go back to the store and get an exchange. Even software (which is notorious of being a 'No Refunds' purchase) can be exchanged for the same title if defective.

Even if I purchased online I'd call the people I bought it from; not MS customer support. Ugh, some people...

Re:Why not exchange it at the store?

[linzeal]

Try it after 30 days and see if you get anywhere.

Re:Why not exchange it at the store?

[instinctdesign]

Well, it depends on where you go. I work at an FYE (aka Saturday Matinee, The Wall, Record Town... same company and I've worked for them all) where the official policy is that any hardware issues with game systems is the responsibility of the manufacturer and not ours. This is understandable as the margins on game systems are next to nothing and its not worth more losses in terms of time and effort excluding the fact that the company probably is reimbursed for defective merchandise. Now that's not to say that we don't always refuse a return, pretty much that depends on the manager on duty and the circumstances.

Also, on a completely side and off-topic note... I just found out that FYE's parent company TWEC just signed a major deal with MSN to become its provider of music and movies location. Also we will be getting a number of kiosks for previewing movies and music on, each one running XP... shoot me now, please. So now I am part of the evil empire. I can use a Mac, refuse to fix my roommates horrible Compaq, but MS will find some way to get you. *sigh*

Re:Why not exchange it at the store?

[Jace of Fuse!]

if something breaks, you take it back to the place you got it, thats who your deal is with.

Maybe these people aren't doing the right things when trying to make returns.

Here is the right course of action for always getting your newest game system replaced.

1> Go to (insert one of many stores here: Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, Best Buy) to buy your video game hardware.
2> After getting home, place all packaging material BACK inside the box, and place the receipt someplace where you will not lose it, preferably also in the game box.
3> If the system breaks, you won't have any trouble getting a replacement.

You'll have problems if you take a system back without a box and no receipt, but then if you do that, you've already got problems to begin with.

PlayStation 1

[evilviper]

All those of us that bought a PSX eary on have seen all the defects we'd ever care to. Ever since then, I just wait for the emulators to be released. Screw all the sneaky console bastards.

Is this a problem?

[jchawk]

Well my initial response was yeah microsoft sucks, good for them for making crappy hardware. Then I actually read the article. And here's what I discovered.

"Analysts said the number of flawed consoles is probably too small to spell serious production troubles"

Well less then 1% of the 1.5 million systems failed. And out of those that did fail only 200 people received bad customer service.

My question is this, why didn't these people take there X-boxes back to the store immediately. There were plenty of X-boxes to go around, at least where I live. There was really no reason they couldn't have exchanged it.

If you look at the numbers Nintendo had a similar failure rate with the game cube. Was this news? No and neither is this story.

I hate microsoft as much or more then most people on slashdot, and I want to see them fail, but this is not failure. This is just the slashdot crowd chomping at the bit and jumping on any little thing.

Re:Is this a problem?

[CMiYC]

First I think CNN is making an issue out of nothing. Then come along Slashdot, and we're going to make it even worse. Everything has manufacturing defects and everyone has bad customer support problems. I'm still trying to figure out why these people are sending their stuff back in when Wal-Mart will give you a new one in about 10 minutes.

Re:Is this a problem?

[macpeep]

"Well my initial response was yeah microsoft sucks, good for them for making crappy hardware."

Of course Microsoft doesn't even make the XBOX. Flextronics does.

Probably almost no budget for support

[billmaly]

I doubt MS has budgeted too much money to after sale support of XBox. Reasoning as follows:

XBox sells for $300.
Here's where it get's tricky...quoting consumer prices here, I'm sure MS buys this stuff by the truckload for a lot less...bear with me.

Processor inside cost $75-100.
Memory cost $50.
Hard drive cost $75.
Misc. hardware cost $50.
Worst case, that's $275. Add to that the BOX itself, packaging, controllers, docs, etc...we're talking an item with a VERY low profit margin. MS spent some quingillion dollars developing this thing, so obviously, some money will need to be directed to recouping development costs. When all is said and done, I don't think that MS is making a lot of money on each unit.

Is that an excuse for poor after market service? No, it's a lousy excuse! But, they had a price point they believed they had to hit, and something had to slide for them to hit it. As a tech geek, ask yourself, "Would I rather have a faster processor and more memory, or real good support that I'll probably never need?". Me, I'd pick the hardware and roll the dice on the support.

Now, I don't believe that MS has tried to make a faulty product...they dove into the console war headfirst, and HAVE to shine right out of the gate, if they don't, major egg on the face. So, it behooves them , as it does any manufacturer, to create a quality product. I'm just stating the facts as I see them, not defending or accusing.

Re:Probably almost no budget for support

[Saint Nobody]

i'm not sure specifically about xbox, but historically, consoles have frequently been sold at a loss, with the expectation that they can make it back in game production, both in-house, and licensing to other companies who would develop games.

then there's the notion of games that exist to draw people into a platform. for instance, final fantasy x will be big for sony, because all the people who devour the final fantasy series will need to have a ps2 to play it. console companies are willing to do almost anything to get these games released exclusively for their platform, as they want an advantage over their competitors. then, once these consoles and the draw games are in the houses of the consumers, the consumer will theoretically buy more games, since he already has the system.

Re:Probably almost no budget for support

[CMiYC]

I just wanted to add... Just in time for FFX to be released, Sony has announced that it is finially breaking even on the console. I saw it in the recent IGN Playstation magazine.

Re:Probably almost no budget for support

[fusiongyro]

From Acts of Gord, specifically Proclamations 2:

Xbox. MS has decided to follow the Sega Model. Buy off the shelf parts, have someone else build it, and take a loss in order to push units out the door...

Anyway, Microsoft is losing money per console sold, not including what they are spending advertising and support. Reports have it fall between $50 to $105 lost per console. MS has only said that they are losing money, and won't comment on how much.

Known fact: almost all consoles are sold at a loss, usually a fairly beefy one. MS is basically pushing a little computer, priced at $300 is the only way they could ever compete with PS2 (look at 'em and the games, ask yourself if it could possibly be "worth" more than a PS2). The real money of the console market is in the games, not the hardware. At the moment, the only console known to be sold at no loss is the PS2. Sony researched it, developed it, makes the parts, assembles the units, puts 'em in the packages, and ships them; all in-house, because they are huge and have the facilities to do just that. MS does not.

I'd say this information only reinforces your conclusion. Which is MS historically more likely to spend on: advertising or quality support?

Daniel

Re:Probably almost no budget for support

[big.ears]

By your calculations, given that MS must be wholesaling the consoles to retailers for around $150-$200 (I'm sure someone here knows what wholesale is), they are probably losing $100 or more per console. That jives with what others here are saying. But, the money budgeted for hardware support is probably inversely proportional to their expenditures on the parts, and has nothing to do with how much they are making per console, because they aren't making money on the consoles. They may be willing to skimp on the quality of their parts and throw 50% of the saving at support. This appears to be the Palm/Handspring/cellphone model. But, they can't afford skimp too much, because of the bad rep they would get for producing a crappy console. This is more important in the console market than in the handheld market--for some reason, people expect their handhelds and cellphones to break when they drop them--they don't accept this for their consoles.

Re:Probably almost no budget for support

[Tuzanor]

The xbox also has what is essentially a geforce 3. i don't think that falls under the $50 "misc" catagory. Microsoft is selling the xbox at a loss hoping that software linceses will make up for it (which it should in a few years)

Re:Probably almost no budget for support

[fusiongyro]

I suspect the current cost of the XBox slightly less than US$300. The losses are an accounting trick.

It's possible. The situation is very complicated, and MS traditionally takes legal advantage in as many places as possible.

But look at the situation: XBox still uses off-the-shelf parts, PS2 uses in-house developed and manufactured parts. I'm not an expert, but I would guess that in-house development is a high one-time cost and in-house manufacture is a much lower continual cost. MS went the other way to get a quick entry into the market and here they are: sub-par product which is largely ignored if not regarded as a secondary product.

Check out what XBox's are going for on ebay: selling for $310 unopened. Whee, a whole $10 over K-Mart, auction ending in one minute... that's not exactly demand. Compare to the PS2 which is selling for $260 opened and used, no extras. That's demand. I didn't even see an opened or used XBox for sale, they were all sealed and unopened. Here's a guess as to why: so the seller can go out and buy a PS2 with the money!

MS can't annex the gaming market. I agree with you: they're sharpening their legal knives, but I just don't see how their unit which is manufactured and supported by contracted third parties could be cheaper than building a PS2 from scratch. Even if you count off-the-shelf parts, they're buying from other people to sell this unit. If they are selling it at profit, it seems to go without saying that Sony is making more money on PS2s than MS could be on XBoxes.

Daniel

Re:Probably almost no budget for support

[jmauro]

Unless the XBox pulls a dreamcast and dies within a year. Then Microsoft is out of the money.

Re:Duh,

[CMiYC]

Either you're being excessivly sarcastic, or you're living under a rock.

1. Grand Turismo 3

2. Metal Gear Solid 2

3. Final Fantasy X

4. Frequency (thanks to some mood enhancement)

5. Ico

You might argue that FFX and Ico don't count. You can get RPGs anywhere. Fine, whatever. You can't get those two anywhere else right now (and Sony would like you not to get FFX anywhere else ever). I don't know a single racing simulator as awesome as GT3. MGS2 is in a class of its own. In all honesty its GT3 and MGS2 that made me want a PS2.

Microsoft product?

[Sivar]

A microsoft product defective?
Poor technical support?

Hell has now frozen over.

Death of Customer Service

[Sabalon]

Is there really anyplace the provides good customer service anymore?

Wait on the phone for 1 hour to be transfered and then disconnected. A myriad of reasons why they can't accept a return on a particular item.

Also, it seems as more and more things are basically computers with a different front end, problems are taking longer to creep up. By the time you may experience a problem, you are beyond the return date and you get to go through support hell.

I had an APEX DVD 600a for a month. At the end of the month, I got Stargate and got the infamous branching/looping problem. Up till that DVD it had been working fine. The there was basically something that the software couldn't handle properly. I was just able to return it, but if it had been a week later, I would have been screwed.

Oh well...that's my bitch...off to bed.

Re:Death of Customer Service

[StormySky]

I had a rather fun experience with Creative a couple months ago. I wanted to wean a neighbour off a winmodem, which was typically connecting at around 23-26000bps, so looked about online for what would be a decent, but cheap, modem. (Hard convincing non computer folks to spend more when there's one for $5...). So, settled on a Creative one. It came, I installed it. The best it did was 33.6. I spent hours looking at init strings, scouring the net, etc, to no avail, so, finally, broke down and looked for a number for Creative's support. Then came the fun: As near as I could tell (and I doubt it's changed) there's absolutely no way to get a live person at Creative. Period. The support numbers just give voice recorded hell, telling you to go to a web page. I've still not got a reply to the email I sent them...

I think eventually, all the companies that can't even support their hardware are just going to become extinct. It's one thing to have to handhold a naive customer through using one's product, but if it doesn't work as advertised (btw, a nice little usr modem connects at 49333 everytime on that neighbour's system... ) and they can't be bothered to answer their phones? To anecdotal nostalgia with them!

As far as the Xboxes... did we really need another console, especially from M$? I still get off playing the N64, if I need some chewing gum for the mind. Between Sony and Nintendo, I think there's a nice, balanced market... and most the 'serious' gamers either own both or religiously stand behind one or the other. No room for the Redmond beast. Plus, who's going to be loyal when they start selling XBox'02 upgrades for half the price of the system, next year? :-)

Re:Death of Customer Service

[Black Parrot]

> Is there really anyplace the provides good customer service anymore?

If you're rich, yes.

While waiting my turn in the dentist's chair a couple of years ago I read an longish article in some rag (sorry; forgot which one) that went into a great bit of detail about the cold-hearted calculations businesses do about the ROI of giving good service vs. just blowing you off. In short, unless they can hope to make a lot of money off you-the-individual in the future, there's just no ROI in providing you any kind of service at all.

Places like banks actually hope to lose your business if you don't have very much money, because you simply aren't worth the trouble to them.

The article didn't go into the PR costs of blowing too many people off, but in a world of increasingly captive markets that's becoming less and less of an issue. (And where there is still competition, if that competition is equally cavalier about customer service then there's still no PR motivation.)

Re:Death of Customer Service

[IronChef]

Lately I have come to see customer service this way:

A company is like a stellar body. If it's big and the fires of enthusiasm run down, it collapses into a black hole from which nothing can escape, even (especially) customer service. In this state it may even consume smaller companies that come too close.

When a company gets to that point -- the point where no customer service agent actually knows the answer to a question, the point where no one that you can reach has the power to find anyone to fix that aggravating piece of disinformation on the web site -- when they get to that point I just do my best to do without them. Sometimes you can, and sometimes (*cough*PHONE COMPANY*cough) you have to suck it up.

Quality customer service has been dead for ages. I don't remember it being this bad 10 years ago but then again I have a rotten memory anyway.

Re:Death of Customer Service

[Peyna]

Is there really anyplace the provides good customer service anymore?

Last year when getting new local phone server I called Ameritech only to be told they didn't service my area, so I called Verizon, upon which a PERSON answered the phone, and told me that we was going to solve all my problems and was damn happy about it too. After about 2 minutes we figured out that Ameritech indeed was the only local provider available to me, and gave me all the information I needed to contact them. I dreaded calling them back. (If you've dealt with them before you'll understand.)

By the way, this is in Indianapolis. Why can't they open up the phone networks like Fort Wayne did? And while I'm at it, why the hell am I charged ~$60 every time I move and need to get phone service? I know it can't cost them near that much to transfer my account, especially when all the wires and everything are already in place.

Anyway, the moral is that customer service can be good. You try putting up with bitchy people all day and still be calm and rational with every customer and keep track of everything. I've had to do support for a small company before, it's not fun, but if you like your job enough, you still do your best.

Re:Death of Customer Service

[seanadams.com]

> Is there really anyplace the provides good customer service anymore?

If you're rich, yes.

There's nothing especially cold-hearted about the practice. Manufacturers are giving the consumer exactly what they demand - the lowest possible price. Handling and refurbishing a product, in many cases, costs more that the wholesale price of the product itself, so you can bet it's in the best interests of the manufacturer to make the highest quality product they can, in spite of the cost constraints. Software is an exception - most consumers have incredibly low standards for even the most expensive software. For those of us who demand quality software, the stringent return policies give us no choice but to try a pirated copy before we buy, or switch to OSS.

So people usually don't get pissed off when they have to return something, if they can do so without too much hassle. However, selling a product that has been previously returned and not properly refurbished (Fry's) is deplorable.

Re:Death of Customer Service

[shepd]

>Places like banks actually hope to lose your business if you don't have very much money, because you simply aren't worth the trouble to them.

You're quite right. When I was 14 I tried to cash my first paycheque at a Toronto Dominion bank in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. They refused to cash it (is that legal?). I even had an account with them at that point.

Now I'm 23 and I'm with the Bank of Montreal (they switched over / new management / whatever) and never bothered to read past the title on their offer to stay with the TD bank.

Now, of course, I use their services, and give them much more money, much more often. Was it worth blowing me off for that cheque?

Probably not. And its something I plan to remember and tell others for the indefinite future.

Re:Death of Customer Service

[stripes]

If you do search for the cheapest hardware it is normally cheap for a reason. Being bad, and/or having no support is a reason. I buy cheap hardware too sometimes. I also buy the expensive kind.

I had a Cisco Aeronet (Aironet?) base station go bad recently. It took maybe 3 clicks from cisco.com to find a phone number, and less then five minutes to talk to a live person even though it was a bit after 9PM on the east coast, and a bit after 5 on the west. Not bad. Of corse all they did was agree that it sounded like a hardware problem and offer to fix it for about $700 (nothing about that 802.11 base station makes it significantly better then base stations that cost $150 to $300 new).

It is also easy to get Apple on the phone to support their hardware (or software), but I think with more limited hours.

It was trivial to get PC Power and Cooling on the phone (you use the main 800 number and ask for support), they even cross ship broken hardware.

Easy to get TiVo and DISH on the phone. A bit hard to break out of the script though.

Pretty easy to get the phone company, unless you want to call because your only line is down. It's almost trivial to get out of their script though.

It looks to be really hard to get Quicken on the phone. I'll find out for sure in the morning.

Canon is pretty easy to get on the phone, I have had only hardware questions though (one wasn't in the manual -- the sync voltage is 6V -- the other was -- the focus assist needs CF6 set to on, and focus to be in one shot not AI focus).

I'm sure a lot of other places answer their phones (and have people on the other end and all). I do believe a lot of places don't.

I think eventually, all the companies that can't even support their hardware are just going to become extinct

I hope so, but I'm not so sure. I mean I buy the cheep stuff. I have a cheep CF card, a cheep CD-RW, and cheep media. Stuff that if it breaks I can replace. Stuff that I think isn't that complex to design. I don't have cheep power supplies partly because it is hard to find cheep quiet ones, and partly because if a power supply goes bad in the wrong way it can destroy a lot of more costly stuff. I do have other cheep parts though.

Now that I think about it I'm not sure a cheep CF card was a good idea....

Re:Death of Customer Service

[bellings]

If you're rich, yes.

It has nothing to do with being rich. You can get good customer service if you're willing to pay for it.

Frankly, most people are not.

Re:Death of Customer Service

[Jucius Maximus]

"Is there really anyplace the provides good customer service anymore? Wait on the phone for 1 hour to be transfered and then disconnected. A myriad of reasons why they can't accept a return on a particular item. "

Customer support for the end user, I agree, is quite pathetic all across the board. But customer support for the resellers (who are customers of the manufacturers, or resellers higher up in the food chain) get great support.

I work for a computer developer/hardware reseller and whenever we have an issue, the support is almost always fast and accurate. Maximum 5 minutes on hold (usually get a person right away without any transfers) and the issue is almost always resolved in that call.

There are two reasons I can see for this: First, each reseller is worth a lot more to a manufacturer than an individual home user is to the reseller. For example, resellers by thousands or millions of dollars worth of equipment from the mfgr. Losing one reseller is losing a lot of money. The manufacturers want to treat their resellers nicely so that they keep their accounts. In comparison, a home user will often account for less than one onehundredth of one percent of a reseller's revenue, so even if one of them stops buying because of bad support, it is not a large hit. Because of this, there is less motivation for resellers to provide top notch support for end users.

Second, manufacturers sell to a few hundred to a few thousand resellers. Compare this to home users - how many buyers of MS-Windows are there out there? You see, there is a much higher buyer:seller ratio for homeusers:resellers than in resellers:manufacturers. This means that the manufacturers need fewer support personnel which makes training easier. The resellers need many many people and it's harder to get them all trained up to expert levels on all products.

So, to connect the dots, the people just 'above' the home user in the food chain probably don't percieve the home users' support frustrations since they (the reseller) gets fine tuned support from wherever they buy their equipment.

Therefore, to answer your original question, there are lots of places which provide good customer service. But you won't be buying from any of them unless you meet the $10,000 minumum per order.

Re:Death of Customer Service

[bryan1945]

Cisco you can get 24/7/365. They have 4 customer support centers around the world, and they forward the number to the current working-day station. Problem is that Cisco requires documentation to get that top level support.

Apple is also pretty good, but I think they only have 1 support center, so that is the reason why they have limited hours.

Can't comment on the others as I have not used them, but IBM's support website is pretty fucking awesome. I've solved at least 3x as many problems at that site than I have through all support phones calls combined for my work machines.

As for cheap vs. expensive hardware, it depends on the HW. For a NIC card, cheap ok, for a graphics card, expensive USUALLY means good. Any company with cheap hardware will be able to get away with it (commodity HW), but any company that makes expensive hardware will not (Cisco always pops into the head).

Re:Death of Customer Service

[sharkey]

Is there really anyplace the provides good customer service anymore?

American Power Conversion (APC) does. Advanced Digital Information Corporation (ADIC) does too. When we've had a UPS go belly up, APC's support has been very good. When our AIT drive died, ADIC had a replacement out to us in 3 business days. I was quite happy with both companies.

Veritas, on the other hand...

Re:Duh,

[garcia]

couple of things here...

I am not a pro-MS person by any means but some defective units and some whiners about poor customer service does not mean that their shit is really bad. Everyone in the world whines about CS. People sometimes need to understand that just b/c you paid $300 for something does not mean that it is going to work and it isn't going to get repaired that instant. Chill.

As far as Gamecube having games that people want. I just don't see it. I like sitting down in front of my PS2 (or I guess XBox from what I have seen) and firing up my copy of GT3 or Madden 2002 and looking at some sweet as stuff. The Gamecube reminds me of Barney. Purple and cartoonish.

Sorry but GT3 makes the PS2 a must buy. There is no car driving game out there that is anything like it. The graphics are amazing, the gameplay is great, and it never gets old (hell I have been playing GT1 for 3 straight years).

Playing XBox, PS2, and Gamecube in stores is what made me decide what I liked. The controllers for XBox and Gamecube are pretty poor. The PS2 is the only one that is actually comfortable and makes sense. Yeah, this is my opinion but honestly the others are just too bulky and overdone.

I enjoy my PS2. It has the time behind it and the games that are great. You just can't beat what it has.

errr what's today?

[CMiYC]

"SEATTLE, Washington (AP) -- Hundreds of people who bought Microsoft's hot new Xbox game console over the holidays received defective systems, and some say they waited for weeks before the devices were fixed. "

I didn't get past that paragraph before I had to stop reading and go "what?" I think there is just a little melodrama here. At least on my Calendar the date is only January 5th. Which puts us almost at a mere two weeks after Christmas. Not even quite yet.

I know everyone is in a rush to get the holidays in and over, but I think this is seriously starting to stretch it. Pretty soon when there is an article double posted on slashdot, people will be saying "oh come on, I just read that story 10-15 days ago! Right after my cup of coffee!"

Re:errr what's today?

[gmhowell]

I believe that Hanukkah (sp?) started around the 15th of December. And Ramadan before that. While the latter is only loosely a part of the 'holiday season' (at least traditionally) the former is more and more often seen as being included in that.

In any event, it is unlikely that these people purchased the machines on the 24th of December. Most likely, they were purchased at least a week earlier. In many cases, perhaps parents caved in and gave the machines to their brats a little early (especially seeing as how many schools closed on the 21st) So, a broken machine on that date is at least 2.5 weeks.

IOW, people who bought the machine during the holiday season (also commonly thought to start with Thanksgiving) got machines that broke, and they had to wait weeks for the device to be fixed.

Re:errr what's today?

[gmhowell]

Actually, I've never gotten anything for Hanukkah, being a devout Epsicopaleon (That's a joke. I don't think Episcapaleons can be devout. If we were, we'd be Roman Catholics:)

But, a roommate in college (ca. 1991) would have gotten a Sega or some such.

Re:errr what's today?

[Guppy06]

"Which puts us almost at a mere two weeks after Christmas. Not even quite yet."

When it comes to retail sales in the US, "over the holidays" means that month-long gap between Thanksgiving and Christmas.

This is news?

[alpinist]

I know, I'll probably get flamed/modded down for saying anything in defense of MS, but... So what? The article is anti-MS FUD.
So, out of 1.5 million units, a few hundred are bad. As the article even states, this is in line with the industry average, even compared to Nintendo who has more console building experience than anyone else in the market hands-down.
XBox has been out about what, 7 weeks? Is it so surprising that the new player on this market might have a few snags with third-party customer service companies? Haven't you ever chosen to do business with someone only to find out your needs are not in harmony with their service? That is the real issue here. If MS had been in the console business for at least a year or two and people were have endless problems with customer support, then maybe it would be a big deal. Just because it's Microsoft doesn't mean their problems with third party CS companies equate to a poor product or a general neglect of their customers. This molehill is not that mountain.

Re:This is news?

[Guppy06]

"As the article even states, this is in line with the industry average, even compared to Nintendo who has more console building experience than anyone else in the market hands-down."

They said the defective number of units is the norm. They didn't say that the lousy customer experience was. I've talked to Nintendo customer support several times over the years about various things, and have yet to have anything but a downright pleasurable experience. I've even e-mailed Sony once about their PS2 before I bought one and they actually CALLED me to answer my question. I can't say that my experiences with Microsoft support have been quite so rosy.

"Is it so surprising that the new player on this market might have a few snags with third-party customer service companies?"

As the article points out, this console market is possibly as competitive as it has ever been. They will receive zero mercy from Nintendo and Sony (remember, business is war). If this is a sign that Microsoft doesn't have all it's ducks in a row, then they're going to get left in the dust in a bad way. Investors might want to know about this as well as consumers.

"Just because it's Microsoft doesn't mean their problems with third party CS companies equate to a poor product or a general neglect of their customers. This molehill is not that mountain."

On the other hand, just because they're Microsoft means that they should have problems with customer support. While they may be new to the console wars, customer support is something they're supposed to have been doing since the mid 80's.

Blame is placed correctly

[ndogg]

Blame is placed correctly on Microsoft. Yeah, NVidia made the graphics chipset and AMD made the processor, but Microsoft put their name on it, not NVidia or AMD.

What you're saying is that we shouldn't blame the business that claims to have created it, whether or not they actually did. If I claim to have created something and put my name on it like Microsoft did, I will try to at least make sure I know how it was created and how it works.

One thing I never understood.

[Mustang Matt]

Kind of offtopic, but it seems to me that if they had used Athlon's instead of Pentiums they would have had a faster product (selling point to both buyers and developers) and could have sold for less (selling point) than the PS2 making the same amount of money due to the processors being cheaper.

Re:One thing I never understood.

[1g$man]

Just because Athlons are cheaper than Pentiums doesn't mean that the cost to produce an Athlon is less than that of the Pentium. Intel gets a price premium because of their name, while AMD was sell with smaller profit margins to attempt gain marketshare.

Microsoft most likely went with the company that gave them the lowest bid, which may well have been Intel over AMD, regardless of consumer pricing of their products.

Re:One thing I never understood.

[Rogerborg]

• Microsoft most likely went with the company that gave them the lowest bid, which may well have been Intel over AMD, regardless of consumer pricing of their products

Let's not forget the heat issue. AMD chips run toasty hot, and Xbox has to be quiet, which means paying for hefty sinks and whisper fans.

Can we all grow up a little?

[Glonk]

Then comes Microsoft thinking they can take the industry... I guess the jury is still out, but every seller of the XBox I've ever talked to will unofficially tell me, they hate the XBox and wouldn't recommend it to anyone in spite of the fact that it's got awesome graphics and stuff.
You must live in some sort of cave, then. Most of the ones sure tried to sell me the $300 box over the $200 box. :)

When I play games, I don't want BSOD. Especially not during network play that Microsoft intends to make loads of money from. That level of unreliability will be completely intollerable to gamers everywhere who are used to simple reliability of Sony and Nintendo.
That's great! Because Xbox doesn't have BSODs, or GSODs. 99%+ of people don't have issues with it. No crashings, no defects, nadda. 'Hundreds' out of the estimated 1.5 Million Xboxes sold had defects. Don't you think this is being overplayed a tad?

Playstation 2s had defects, Playstation had defects. No electronics have 100% success rates, this is about normal. Hell, my Sony WEGA 36XBR400 (expensive HDTV) didn't work at all. Called the Sony techs, they came and dinked around. Weeks later, a truck came, pulled it away. Weeks after, a new one came, and it worked.

To think this problem is unique to MS is just silly. What is unique to MS is this giant magnifying glass being put over the entire console by people who WANT the Xbox to fail. By people who already hate Microsoft and believe every product they put out is buggy and unstable. Then when the slightest inkling of this actually happens, everyone posts the stories to Slashdot and shrieks "I told you so!". It's almost funny, but it's too sad to be funny.

No profit margin.

[Sivar]

Consoles are sold at a loss, and the XBox is sold at more of a loss than any other console. Notice the business reviews of the XBox saying that Microsoft will lose several billion dollars and require over three years to turn a profit?
Console companies make their money on the software, and it will take quite a bit of software to make up the cost.
I'm sure that Microsoft knows what they are doing, though. They may not know how to design or impliment decent software. but nobody can argue that they know business.
The XBox, if you follow news on Microsoft, is to get their foot in the door of home electronics. The X-Box combined with Ultimate TV (Microsofts innovative clone of Tivo) can potentially allow Microsoft to eventually control advertising on your TV, track everything you watch, and conceivably eventually allow Microsoft to influence what is actually shown on television.

Compaq has a new business service called "Zero latency enterprise" which allows a company to look up your purchase history in less than one second. With an Xbox/UTV combo and a capability like this, Microsoft could display the absolute most effective ads for you and collect royalties from advertisers and networks.

Okay, enough conspiracy theories.

When Microsoft rules the world, I'm moving.

Re:No profit margin.

[haruharaharu]

Consoles are sold at a loss, and the XBox is sold at more of a loss than any other console

No. The Xbox and the Dreamcast are/were sold at a loss. Sony and Nintendo have always made a profit on the hardware. In fact, the margin on the PS2 is estimated at ~$100.

Re:No profit margin.

[dmarcov]

I actually think I have a pretty good working on theory on Bill's idea here -- and if you ask me (and of course, nobody is), it's brilliant.

Lots of companies want to be the "digital hub" ... most recently of course, probably Apple. The problem is how to do you get your hardware into lots of consumer's hands? Well -- you sell them of course -- and brand & price are generally the two things that non-Slashdot consumer is looking for.

So, (for example), the way Apple is trying to do it is with purely innovative products like the iPod and iMac -- and they are pretty cool -- although most will acknoledge that they are toward the higher end of their category range.

Microsoft has solved this problem, by calling their "hub" a game machine, and getting the software writers to subsidize their cost -- so while Apple has to make a profit (however small), Microsoft gets to lose money on the hardware, sell more of the boxes, and still end up ahead.

Sony I think is getting closer by including a DVD player for the PS2 -- but Microsoft specifically wants the XBox line to be this digital hub -- and as I think someone points out, you start adding satellite, Ultimate TV, and a broadband connection -- fairly easy using either USB 2.0 or something purely proprietary, and ... instance market domination.

IMHO, of course.

Re:No profit margin.

[cqnn]

That would be before the two price drops that
Sony made to the PS2 in the past year?

Why is this a big deal?

[compugeek007]

Is this really a black mark for the Xbox? I have never had a pleasant customer service experience with any consumer electronics barring Computers. I have come to expect a poor level of service if I ever have to call support for a DVD player or a TV.

Besides, Microsoft will realize the current support contractor sucks, and pay out some cash for a better one. From the article it dosen't sound all that bad anyway.

This is anecdotal eveidence of certain individual's problems - not a big deal.

Re:defects?

[CMiYC]

Well, defects are a part of life. You can't ship 100% of your units at 100% of functionality. If you read the article it says they are estimating a 1% failure rate. Which, according to Nintendo, is pretty common. Well for game consoles anyway. Its understandable that they are going to have some defective units. This isn't a story about a stop shipment because of a serious design flaw. They are talking about defects from (most likely) manufacturing. The issue is the fact these people are getting what appears to be poor support from those defects.

Remember, in business how you handle a bad customer is everything. If you have a bad experience and a company goes out of its way to make it up to you, you will become more loyal. However, if the company further screws you, then that's probably twice as bad.

Re:Duh,

[Apreche]

you're right GT3 kicks ass. But I'm not gonna buy a system for one game. GameCube has like so many, and it goes with my GBA too, which has a huge pile of awesome games.

The PS2 controller is good. Except I don't like the L3 and R3 buttons, I think that's a poor implementation because they can be accidentally pressed while using the analog stick. Also the buttons are analog so the more you press the faster you go.

The XBox controller IS bulky and overdone. You can't reach all the buttons. However, the GameCube is just Nintendo's style. It's not bulky, just looks that way. The Z button is poorly placed some day, but you never need it the same time you need the R button, so it doesn't matter. It's design makes it look very uncomfortable as well, just like the 64 controller. But when you hold it, it's fine. The best part is that the L and R buttons are analog, and you know how hard you are pressing them because they go up and down more than a millimeter. And you know when you've reached max because they click. On the PS2 controller you always push harder, just in case it might get you that extra bit of speed, because there is no indication of when you've reached the maximum that the analog buttons allow.

PS2 controller = good, Gamecube = slightly better, XBox = ow, my hands hurt.

Why mess with customer service?

[Cerebus]

I bought a PS2 for this Christmas, and somehow ended up with a *very* early revision system. Within a week, it had stopped playing any widescreen DVDs; I suppose we tickled a bug somewhere. I tried updating to no avail.

So I went back to the store and exchanged it for another unit, this time a more recent revision. Problem solved.

My point is if it fails to work because of a defect, why bother calling any kind of customer service? Return the unit to the vendor. This drops it back in the manufacturer's lap, and you don't end up being hassled. That's why God created return policies.

And if you bought it from a place that won't accept returns on defective merchandise, I can only say: Caveat emptor, mon ami.

Re:Why mess with customer service?

[Peyna]

Return it to the vendor, and they'll put a "refurbished" sticker on it and sell it to someone else.

Re:Duh,

[CMiYC]

Well, I wanted a game console and I had three to choose. X-Box has no titles on it that are appealing what so ever. There is nothing distinctive there and there is nothing on the radar either. All it has (and all I can get people to tell me) is a 700+ mHz processor. Big deal. If games only use 10% of it, then you're wasting 90% of my money. Gamecube, as someone else pointed out, makes me feel like I'm playing with Barney. Besides, there isn't anything distinctive there either (yet). So knowing I wanted to play video games, choosing one and only one title is appropriate. I'm not about to wait for a PC version of MGS2. It was designed for the Playstation. Not my computer. Besides, I doubt any of the games on any of the consoles will be released for Linux anyway.

Re:Duh,

[garcia]

I personally do not like analog sticks at all. I found the N64 to be a real waste of time just b/c of that controller. The analog is just hard to use. I use the digital pad for most games and the Logitech steering wheel for GT3.

Try as I might I just can't understand how an analog stick is better. But that's just me.

But I do agree, at times L3 and R3 are a pain but most games don't use them all that much. They seem to click when I use them though.

Software, firmware, etc..

[TheToasterBoy]

Over the years, I've come to accept the unfortunate fact that >80% of 'production' desktop software I'm going to run will crash on a regular basis.

However, I have zero tolerance when an embedded system crashes, be it a consumer box or a commercial/industrial process controller.

When was the last time the firmware in your Sony Flatscreen screwed up? VCR? Microwave? Granted, we're talking about way less lines of machine code, and a lot less data/processing flying through the pipes...

I guess my major concern is that the almost inherent buggyness that plagues computer software becomes "acceptable" in embedded systems. M$ has been the catalyst in more than one "slippery slope" over the years...

Ken.

Re:Software, firmware, etc..

[CMiYC]

This isn't a case of software bugs, I don't think. I think its learning more towards manufacturing defects. The same kind of defects that plague ANYTHING you buy in a store, including your shiny Flatscreen.

Although, I do share your concern. Seems like as larger complex buggy systems get scaled down, their bugs come with it. It'd be nice if I didn't have to care about what revision my receiver's EEPROM had stored on it.

I work at a video game store...

[10e 999]

specifically, gamestop.com (software etc, babbages, planetx, funcoland, and super software

We have had two xboxes returned as defective. BOTH, were from physical damage resulting from the "bounce test" that occurs during shipping.

There were obvious gashes in the cardboard of the box. One one xbox, the 2nd controller port did not function, and the other simply didn't power up.

We've had similar situations with the PS2. There have been no Gamecubes returned and I can't even count how many defective dreamcasts we have.

Um? Is this a joke?

[oGMo]

But there aren't any PS2 games that aren't available elsewhere that make the PS2 a must buy.

This has got to be a troll or just another GCN fanboy. Try the following unique games that are really great (and these are just the ones I've got):

• Twisted Metal Black
• Gran Turismo 3
• Klonoa 2
• Gauntlet: Dark Legacy
• Kinetica
• Jak and Daxter
• Ico
• Devil May Cry
• Frequency
• Final Fantasy X

Now how about the ones that are apparently will eventually be ported, but I already have them:

• Silent Hill 2
• Grand Theft Auto III
• Metal Gear Solid 2

This of course doesn't include some of the lesser titles, the upcoming titles, and the ones I don't have and didn't include (like SSX Tricky and THPS3, the latter of which I know is available on the GCN already).

Now, maybe you think some of these aren't worth it. Maybe. But for most of us, these are all great reasons to get a PS2.

I'm no Sony fanboy. I've already got a GBA, and as soon as some of the scheduled GCN titles arrive (Mario, Zelda, and some of the RPGs), I'm getting a GCN too.

But there's no way you're going to get my PS2.

Re:Um? Is this a joke?

[dermusikman]

"fanboy" - oh, how I love that term...

Nintendo knows how to make fun games. They make games that I'll return to in five years and *continue* to enjoy.
I can't deny Sony their throne today, and I even admit to owning a PSX - but I consider that initial release to be a turning point in the industry... a turning which I don't wish to follow.

I've never been a fan of load-times. When I sit down to a game, I expect it all to be seamless - fmv's run quickly to and from gameplay; levels show immediately when called for... all the benefits of a cartridge.
Forced at gun-point, I'm playing through Xenogears on the PSX... and while I'm enjoying aspects of the game/story - I can't get over the ridiculously long loadtimes for an fmv! After 3 seconds (5 minutes in "gametime"), the mood has been lost, and the cleanly drawn anime characters may as well be sock puppets for all I care...
"That's just the way it works... that's the limitation of a CD..." - ya, understandable for a computer game; but inexcusable for a console, in my humble and stringent opinion.
That's a major reason N64 remained a cartridge, I think - they, too, couldn't tolerate the load times. And that's why Gamecube uses ultra-small proprietary format DVDs, I believe - there are virtually no loadtimes whatsoever! And where there are load times, they are cleverly hidden under cinematic prelude (which should have been done in the first place on CD consoles *and* PCs).
I've encountered no noticeable loadtimes in Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin, or Star Wars - there's a *single* load time in the whole of Smash Bros. Melee, which is a remarkably large game holding great and dynamic playing levels...

And most important is game play... I return to NES and have the time of my life. I play my SNES as much as I play any PC game. I really enjoy N64. Hell - I even go back to my Game&Watch.
and I continue to play it, because it *continues to be good*.

That's faith in a company who consistently holds high standards of quality. "Fanboy"... whatever.
PS2 - technology finally allows what the console promised years ago.
GameCube - Nintendo has always been about efficiency... Mario64 was only 8MB! Less "pure strength and capacity", but far better use of what they have... only 1.5 Gigabits... but each byte brilliantly utilized... SBMelee has nearly 300 intricately detailed 3D figures, 26 playable characters in 29 *dynamic* levels... plus "adventure play" and other possibilities... 1.5 Gigabits...
Xbox - offers nothing new. It's last year's PC. The octupus is just grabbing for more territory.

I take it "fanboy" means "person of high console standards"...

der_m
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2001- 12 -14&res=l

Re:Um? Is this a joke?

[IronChef]

I can't get over the ridiculously long loadtimes for an fmv! After 3 seconds (5 minutes in "gametime"), the mood has been lost...

Holy cow, I thought I had a short attention span but you take the cheese!

OT: Yes

[Sivar]

HP, IBM, and depending on who you get, DirecTV are all good.
HP shipped a $400 scanner to replace my $200 scanner, overnight delivery, and paid for shipping both ways to me when my motherboard's USB controller was flaky. Not even their fault.

IBM offered to fly a technician to my house when OS/2 was refusing to use my soundcard. (it was a cheap SB clone at the time). Their suggestions got it working, so I was never able to test the offer.

DirecTV has at least reduced their wait time to just a few seconds, and now has around 5,000 customer service people in 6 centers. Quite a few of them are fairly clueless about DirecTC though, but at least they are willing to find an answer to a question they do not know.

Just wanted to point out some GOOD experiences, when there are so many bad ones to be heard about.

Re:OT: Yes

[alcmena]

Another really good one, at least here in Columbus, Ohio is Time Warner's Road Runner. I called them because my connection would often go into mad packet loss (between 85-99%) for about 10 minutes every other hour or so. They sent three different techs out. One with a laptop to verify the problem existed on a machine other than my own. He called in the second tech who came out the next day. The second tech replaced the modem and replaced all of the cable ends. A few days later, I was still having the problem, they sent the third tech the next day. He rewired the outside cabling and put in a new outlet.

I even had a call a few days after the third tech to check and see if the problem was gone and ask for my impression of the service as a whole. I was floored, not only was this a company that went through a pretty hefty expense (three techs and a new modem) to fix my problem, but they called to see if it was working right yet. I would strongly recommend them to anyone.

This post reminds of the Dilbert...

[freeBill]

...where the pointy-haired boss announces that management has discovered that 40 percent of sick days are being taken on Friday and Monday, declares they "know what this means," and wonders why Asok has fallen on the floor laughing.

Dilbert explains that the new intern can "probably do math."

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

US customers are the testers no japanese

[Anonymous Coward]

We're just seeing what happens when the US market gets a product first. Remember all those faulty memory cards and DVD drives that didn't work in the PS2? No one really cared since it was all fixed by the time the stuff came to the US. Now we're the testers for the stuff.

Re:Another wasted moment for Slashdot...

[mlk]

Reading the story will tell you that the Game Cube had a simaler defect rate.

The problem has been support, not the XBox.

mlk

Why would CNN do such a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

First I think CNN is making an issue out of nothing.

AOL/TimeWarner owns CNN.
AOL doesn't play nice with MS. :)

I wonder why they'd post such blatant FUD? ;)

Re:Why would CNN do such a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it's not CNN, it's the Associated Press that wrote this news piece. This exact article will circulate through hundreds of news organizations and publications.

Try check the exact article on Microsoft's (and NBC's) own MSNBC.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/682392.asp

Sorry not an AOL-Time Warner conspircicy.

Speaking as a Gamecube and PS2 Owner

[OS24Ever]

Both systems have their merits. Though I am a bit disappointed with the PS2 in the Fighting Games genre. Dreamcast had things like Soul Caliber and DOA2. PS2 came out at launch with DOA2 but it was the same thing. I was hoping for something better than Tekken Tag Tournament.

Camecube has a few good launch titles. I have Wave Race and Star Wars. Star Wars graphics are impressive. But the PS2 Starfighter game is very good too. I hope to pick up Metal Gear Solid 2 and Final Fantasy X. Those are extermely impressive on the PS2. My brother rented MGS2. The only complaint is they over cinematized MGS2 compared to the previous version on the PSX.

XBox has nasty controlers, and about par games. Halo is about the only title I'm vaguely interested in, but then those controllers weigh a ton and are extremly awkward. For fraggin you must use a mouse for view, so I stick with my Desktops.

Re:Speaking as a Gamecube and PS2 Owner

[ZaMoose]

Dude, Play Capcom vs. SNK 2 or Guilty Gear X. Both are absolutely awesome 2D, cel-drawn games.

Failing that, wait for Virtua Fighter 4 (coming in March, hopefully!) and Soul Calibur 2 (which will also be hitting GCN and XB) around mid-year.

Is anybody any better?

[MhzJnky]

When my original NES died after only 2 days of play it took 2 months to get a replacement from Nintendo. The store wouldn't take it back, they said I had to deal with Nintendo directly.

When my Princeton Graphics monitor died I went through three remanufactured replacements before I got one that worked. Well worked well enough that I didn't feel the need to deal with those people any more.

It seems today bad customer service is the norm. I'm not sure why, but it might have something to do with the fact that I never formaly complained to Nintendo or Princeton Graphics. I mean when was the last time you did anything but yell at the poor sap making $7/hour answering the phone. Do you think he reported your frustration up the managment chain? He sure as hell did not. He just noted your trouble ticket as completed in the computer and move on.

If anyone is to blame it is the consumers for puting up with this and continuing to purchase goods from these people. I know I'll never buy a Princeton Graphics monitor again, but I did by a Super Nintendo and a N64.

Re:Is anybody any better?

[Rogerborg]

• When my original NES died after only 2 days of play it took 2 months to get a replacement from Nintendo. The store wouldn't take it back, they said I had to deal with Nintendo directly.

Which is where the joy of credit cards comes in. I have run into this crap from retaillers in the past, when I know damn well that they are legally obliged to replace a not-fit-for-purpose DOA system - if you're the last profit maker in the selling chain then you're the first step in the return chain. If you don't like that you're in the wrong business.

It takes a degree of certainty, but if this happens again, put the box on the counter and say "If you don't replace it with a new item, I'll simply instruct my CC issuer to bill you back, as I've never received fit-for-purpose goods. Either way, I'm not picking that box up again."

It's OK to be firm in these situations, as the retailler is already breaking the law (although the adamancy of their denials often makes me think that retail chains just flat out lie to their underpaid front line employees about what the law actually is). As many people have suggested, this is what Xbox purchasers should have done. In fact, if you're a really ruthless bastard, it's even easier with an online retailler. Get a documentation trail that shows you're asserting that the goods are non-fit-for-purpose, bill them back, order a new box (from someone else), and tell the original seller that they can arrange to collect the DOA system or not, it's really up to them.

Lest we forget, putting up with crappy customer service only encourages more flouting of the very clear consumer protection laws that we (fortunately) still have.

Re:All I can say...

[bmajik]

Yeah. Sega and Sony would never do something dumb like put a modem in a game machine..

Oh wait:
Dreamcast had built in 56k modem

Your recollection of consoles seems limited.

fyi, I had to return my dreamcast because it kept hanging in the same place on the same game. The replacement did not. On the other hand, my XBox has not had any troubles.

Additionaly, the overwhelming majority of the first batch of playstation 1s are now dead, due to CD-Rom failure. Most died after a relatively short amount of time. Additionally, there have been 40 revisions of PS1, 32 of them anti-piracy fixes.

Oh, and I suppose you never got the blinking red light on your 8 bit NES that meant you had to blow on the cartridge, the NES, the cartridge, and the NES again over and over until the thing actually started the game without any weird sprite corruption (if at all )..

The point is, every new console has had failed units. It's a consumer electronics device, and its being treated as such. There is nothing to suggest that XBox is having a higher failure rate than any other console launch..despite the fact that its running a hard disk and that it was put together by a company with no previous experience in building a consumer electronics devices of this type.

Ever since the first rumblings of XBox hit slashdot, people have been badmouthing it. First it was vapourware. Next, no one was going to support it. Then, it was "gamecube will be more powerful".

Yet XBox exists, has more launch titles than Gamecube, and has stunningly better graphics and audio than any other platform gaming platform.

By any measure, XBox has thus far been an outstanding success. Sony is competing based on exclusives, inertia, and branding.. Nintendo is competing with a targeted audience and value pricing. If the microsoft rule of 3 holds true for XBox (MS "gets it right" at version 3), then there may not be a nintendo or a sony console by the time XBox 3 arrives.

I suspect that there is some critical mass of installed units that XBox needs before there will be any real migration away from Sony.. but if that mass is reached, the additional capabilities and ease-of-development may shift sony out of the "Default" spot.

And lets be honest..for all you Gamecube fanboys...Gamecube is such an "also ran".

Hardcore gamers will buy it because they buy every system, and because nintendo will publish the n+1 version of the few relevant franchises they have. Just like for N64 there was a Mario game and 2 Zelda games, so shall there be Mario and Zelda games for Gamecube (well, they've been promised). And there will be the usual assortment of Pokemon and other stuff. Big deal. PS1 broke the gaming industry wide open inspite of N64 and its franchise power, and its stranglehold on the child market. Nintendo may increase its share of the "mario game" and "early childhood" markets, but both of those are shrinking percentages of the overall gaming market.

In an odd twist of fate, assuming Xbox adoption doesn't really happen..._Microsoft_ may be the one whos product fails (to sony) even though it had better technology. That would certainly be a delicious irony on the usual slashdot tale :)

Personal experience

[SilentChris]

My personal experience with the XBox has been pretty favorable. The controllers and system are designed to take a beating, something I worry about with any first-time console manufacturer. The system also took a pretty big electrical shock without frying (surge... may have been a lightning strike some distance away).

My only complaint is the ridiculous sensitivity of the DVD drive. If you have some dust on the disc or on the tray the system can spew "disc not found" errors after hours of playing. If you have a scratch on a disc you can practically forget it.

It's not enough to seriously detract my enjoyment of the system (it's "crashed" due to "not finding the disc" 2-3 times... it puts you out to the Dashboard and explains the reason), but it's still a bit more than my PS2 has blanked out. Overall I'm actually pretty impressed with the construction and design, with a few "extra" points given since this is MS's first console (I did the same for the original Playstation -- my system overheated regularly). But it's nothing a CD lens cleaner won't fix, and as long as the games are playable -- and fun -- I don't complain.

My Gamecube

[Mean_Nishka]

Works fine :)

Re:Duh,

[gmhowell]

Maybe you don't expect your new $300 acquisition to work correctly out of the box. Most of us do. Maybe you expect to get to wait weeks for repairs/replacement, most of us don't.

Go to your local Circuit Shitty tomorrow. Ask the people looking at TV's if they expect it to work when they get it home. And ask how many expect it to work a week later. And ask them how long they expect to wait for a replacement/repair if it breaks next week.

Did you even read what you linked to?

[xenocide2]

Contrary to popular mythology, the idea of selling a console at below cost
is a rather new phenomenon. It it not an ancient practice handed down
through the ages.
If you're going to take him as word of Go(r)d, at least understand his philosophy.

Re:Duh,

[jbrooks]

People sometimes need to understand that just b/c you paid $300 for something does not mean that it is going to work and it isn't going to get repaired that instant.

f^ck that pal. I pay 399+ bones for something, you're godamned right I expect it to work and if it doesn't, to be fixed. I don't care if it's M$ or GM or fucking SHARP. I pay that kind of money retail, it better fucking work.. Jebus, it's not like Beta testing, jeez.

I returned mine

[TexTex]

I actually had a defective XBox unit. I took it right back to the store (Target) where I got it and asked for a refund. The immediate reaction was the standard line from the person at the counter about how exchanges are all they offer on certain products once any fingerprints have graced the case, etc, etc.

I asked to speak with their supervisor just to get a better explanation and such. After about five minutes of explaining I realize it's not the stores fault and would simply like them to handle the problem rather than me contacting Microsoft, I left with cash in hand. The store felt it actually cost Microsoft less in the long run to have them deal with it than if I started using their support channels and such.

And I'd buy it again from the same store.

Re:What did you expect?

[Stackis]

M$ has been outsourcing most of the customer service for it's Xbox... The article if you read it...states this... "Microsoft uses outside companies, including Harte-Hanks of San Antonio, Texas, and Sykes Enterprises in Tampa, Florida, to handle Xbox customer service. Xbox repairs are handled by Solectron of Milpitas, California."

Re:errr what's today? Did people stop reading it?

[Legion303]

"The Holidays" != simply Christmas Day. It's a journalistic abbreviation for "The Holiday Shopping Season," in this context, which for most retailers begins immediately after Thanksgiving.

That was my immediate reaction as well, until I thought about it for a second: the units were probably purchased much earlier, but how many people would have had the chance to turn them on before Christmas eve/day? I'm assuming these were presents.

I don't know about you, but I usually open Christmas presents at Christmas.

-Legion

Re:[OT]Re:Personal experience

[zhensel]

You say an NES isn't 'flaky'? I seriously doubt that I could run across the hall, pop Bubble Bobble into the machine and hit power successfully without resorting to the Magic Nintendo Voodoo neccessary to get that thing to work. This includes popping the game up and down, blowing out any nonexistent dust, holding the game down and pushing the reset button repeatedly, and jamming another game on top of the already inserted game. To be perfectly honest though, getting nintendo games to work is usually more fun than playing the game itself. Except with Dragon Warrior I guess.

Customer support?

[DrCode]

Just wondering... when you call their customer support, do they tell you to reinstall Windows?

Re:Duh,

[zhensel]

For 10 dollars more than the price of project gotham alone you could pick up a Dreamcast and Metropolis Street Racing (same racing system as Gotham).

Re:Duh,

[Osty]

How come the people who actually use the Xbox controller generally say it feels great unless you have the hands of someone under 12?

I'm more concerned about the detractors, like the parent post. These people go to the store and play the demo units with the stationary controllers, and then bitch because they don't feel right. Well, news flash -- you generally don't play console games standing up, nor do you keep the controller at waist level (or lower, depending on what store the demo unit is in -- those machines are often sized so younger people can access them, which means it's awkward for adults). Find a friend with an XBox, go play with the system for an hour or two. Hold the controller in a comfortable position (which very likely is different than the fixed position on the demo units), and see what you think. I can personally say that I've not experienced any problems reaching buttons (I'll agree that the black and white buttons are a little out of the way, but they're also smaller, and not meant as main action buttons), nor have I had any cramping during long hours of play (I can't say as much about either my PSOne or my Dreamcast, or my NES or SNES from years earlier. Since the PS2 controller is the same as the PS1, and the Gamecube controller is roughly the same form factor, I expect to experience cramping from those as well after long periods of play).

The vast majority of the people who hate the Xbox controller tend to be PS2 and Gamecube fanboys who are used to smaller controllers. Once you actually spend some time with it, your opinion may just change. Try it sometime.

Agreed.

Re:Xplodebox

[xX_sticky_Xx]

How would a company that makes crappy software be expected to produce quality hardware?

I fail to see the correlation between the two entirely different beasts.
Microsoft hardware is actually known for being some of the best around (mice, keyboards, joysticks). The RMA rate quoted in the article is around 1% which is definitely in line with the acceptable rate (would you rather buy a MS Intellimouse Explorer or an IBM Deskstar HDD?)

The whole issue in the article is the poor (outsourced) customer support. The only thing they seem to have done wrong here is pick lousy companies to offer support for their product.

I had WORSE problems with my PS2 at launch!

[Blackwulf]

Here's my timeline:

October 26th, 2000: Was all alone at CompUSA for 3 hours before person #2 showed up at about 5AM - People were camped out at the Best Buy next door and the Circuit City across the street, but never thought of little ol' CompUSA. Even one of the radio DJ's came by to keep me company. Got the first of the 6 units at that store.

That day, take it home, stick my Madden 2001 game in, and nothing happened. Stuck in a DVD, and nothing happened. Nothing. Nada. No spinning. No "Detecting".

Called store, and they said they probably wouldn't get any more units until March of 2001, but would gladly refund my money.

Called Sony, and they tried to get me to run diagnostics on the CD, which wouldn't work since it has to be able to know the CD was in the drive to do the diagnostic. So, they said they'd send me an airbill and I could send it to their Repair Depot in California.

October 30th, 2000: Called Sony back, and said that they'll send the airbill tomorrow.

November 2nd, 2000: Called Sony back, and they said they'd send the airbill tomorrow. I said screw it and sent it on my own dime.

November 20th, 2000: After several calls to the repair depot, I get the tracking number of my repaired unit. They sent it UPS Ground during Thanksgiving. Thanks, Sony.

November 28th, 2000: Received my replacement PS2, plugged it in. Put Madden 2001 in, listened to the CD spin...But that was all. Put in a DVD, listened to the CD spin...But that was all. It wasn't detecting the CD at all.

Called Sony, and the guy said "Well we'll send you an airbill and you can send it back to the department..." Wanted to speak to his manager. "All of our managers are busy, sir, they'll call you back later tonight." Right. Sure.

Amazingly, I got a phone call 45 minutes later. He reiterated the "send it back to our repair depot". I then asked for the address where my attorney could contact them. He then told me that he would personally send me an airbill (via FedEx this time) where I could send him my PS2 and he'd just send me a new one.

November 30th, 2000: Amazingly, I receive an airbill in a timely fashion. I send out my PS2 directly to the guy.

December 8th, 2000: Receive new PS2, and have been playing it to this day. I also have two of those blue boxes I keep just to mess with people, as I only sent the unit, but not the packaging materials.

Remember, I sat in line for about 8 hours on October 26th to get a unit that I didn't get to actually play until December 8th. Let's just say, I'll never do that again. (Actually, I did, but I only was in line 30 minutes for an XBox.)

Moral of the story: This happens with ANY console. PS2 had just as bad of a launch as XBox did to this respect. I have gotten lucky with my XBox, but the Software Etc. I go to said that they had 10 returns on launch day from the hard drive crashing.

Re:I had WORSE problems with my PS2 at launch!

[Rogerborg]

• Remember, I sat in line for about 8 hours on October 26th to get a unit that I didn't get to actually play until December 8th. Let's just say, I'll never do that again. (Actually, I did, but I only was in line 30 minutes for an XBox.)

Sorry to say it, but you are part of the problem. You should have done what the store suggested in the first place: get a full refund, and take your business elsewhere (you'd have got one quicker, right?). That's what you're paying that retail markup for.

Every time I see people saying that their new unit was DOA, I wonder why they put up with it. When you buy a new item that is unequivocably not fit for purpose, consumer law states very, very clearly that you are entitled to receive a fully working new item. A reconditioned or repaired one is not sufficient, and the sooner we stop accepting that crap from retaillers and producers, the sooner they'll stop channeling money from QA and support to marketing. If it breaks even a week down the line, reconditioned is fine, but DOA means it ain't your problem, and you've got the law on your side on that one.

Re:I had WORSE problems with my PS2 at launch!

[dangermouse]

Sorry to say it, but you are part of the problem. You should have done what the store suggested in the first place: get a full refund, and take your business elsewhere (you'd have got one quicker, right?). That's what you're paying that retail markup for.

Um, no, he wouldn't have gotten one quicker. Remember that absurd supply shortage Sony had at launch? The one that lasted something like six months? He would have gotten his money back, and then waited six months for all the kids on waiting lists to get their units before he could even think about attempting a purchase again.

Re:I had WORSE problems with my PS2 at launch!

[Rogerborg]

• he wouldn't have gotten [a PS2] quicker. Remember that absurd supply shortage Sony had at launch? The one that lasted something like six months?

As I remember it, the "waiting list" thing was a crock; the people on waiting lists were the ones who didn't care enough to keep hitting the stores (on and offline) and asking about stock, so Sony and the retaillers reckoned that they weren't going to be big games purchasers anyway, and didn't give a damn about servicing the waiting lists. The big noises about long waits and unavailability were from the people on lists who were too patient/lazy to look elsewhere, and got sick of hearing that Little Johnny next door had wandered into Wal-Mart and found two dozen on the shelves. Given that the poster was a (smart, determined) first-day purchaser, I reckon he'd have found one elsewhere.

Re:I had WORSE problems with my PS2 at launch!

[artemis67]

Actually, he was better off with the course of action he followed. He got a working PS2 by December 8th.

By December 25th, the shortage was so bad that a PS2 sold on eBay for $5,000.

THE CONSOLE TO EVOLVE TO VICTORY!!!!!!

[superpulpsicle]

God creates dinosaur. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs. Dinosaurs eat man... Woman inherits the earth.

MS creates xbox. MS destroys xbox. MS creates xbox-audience. xbox-audience destroys MS. xbox-audience creates linux-xbox-emu. xbox eats linux-xbox-emu... PS2 inherits the earth.

Re:Please, Blame it right

[b0r0din]

I have to agree, this article really doesn't say much more than that their support is lousy. Now that sounds awful, to believe that 12 people had bad experiences with CS, but before you begin your M$ bashing, just remember that 1) the XBox hasn't been around that long and 2) M$ is just getting started with gaming consoles. Most forays into new territories have their bumps along the way. I'm not a big M$ fan, but bad CS at this stage is normal. When Verizon went through all that consolidation a year or so ago, their support was horrible. I had a two and a half hour wait to kill my phone for a move. But lately, I can usually get someone on the line in about 3 minutes.

It could be the case management software they are using is new or the people are untrained in its use. Hell, support started what, three months ago tops, who knows? Launches are never flawless.
It happens. Any decent company will make big strides to straighten themselves out with the press though, now that CNN has made such a big deal out of it. Frankly though, I think that posting this story carries an air of FUD to it.

Slashdot tries to demonize M$ as much as possible, and most of the time with good reason. But bad customer support? Please. I work in the customer support field, and nothing can be worse than having to tell a person that some AOL lackey is lying to them about them having a modem virus.

Re:[OT]Re:Personal experience

[gmhowell]

Never had those problems with the NES. Only one memory loss on Zelda.

How much of that is eBay recoil?

[SuperKendall]

Those kinds of numbers make me wonder how much of the return rate of XBox's (or even GameCubes) was due to profiteers bying XBoxes to sell on eBay, then realizing they couldn't double thier money and returning them.

Even at the peak of eBay XBox demand, I think people were making around $100 profit - but even then most of the sellers already had numerous good remarks, 0 comment sellers were usually ignored.

As much as I DISLIKE Microsoft...

[AnimeFreak]

...I can't say much against the X Box just yet. I do own a Playstation 2 and I wouldn't trade it in for a X Box, but if Microsoft dropped it in my hands I wouldn't be upset over getting free stuff.

What angers me is that even on launch, Dreamcast had some problems. Overheating is one thing that came to mind. Even NES, SNES, Gameboy, Gamecube, PSX, PS2, etc have had problems of such calibre. What I see here is direct biasism towards Microsoft and that is generally unfair (even though MS isn't quite the fair company).

Hell, there are defects in EVERYTHING. For instant, my video card does not like to sync properly unless I edit a few lines in my XF86 configuration file, but I don't go around saying XFree86 or my video card is crap because of that. It is just one of those flaws you have to deal with.

Now, I am not saying that flaws are something we should ignore. Microsoft (and any company or developer) should acknowledge it's problems and attempt to fix them for future releases. Flaws are mistakes, if we acknowledge them and fix them, we have learned from them; if we ignore them, then we have not learned anything at all.

As much as I dislike Microsoft, I am going against this article.

Re:As much as I DISLIKE Microsoft...

[Peyna]

No kidding, I'd be curious what defect rates are for motherboards, because I've had several that gave me nothing but problems (MSI being one of them, and I had heard great things about them). I finally broke down and paid the extra cash and got an ASUS MB.

By the way, you guys are complaining about 1%, and I bet that automobiles have a higher defect rate, and I'd be more worried about that than I would a game console.

A console is not just a computer...

[Gribflex]

The thing the people have to keep in mind is that the console market is directed primarily at those who are (partially or mostly) tech-illiterate, and aren't even old enough to drive.

Sure, if I got a faulty system, I'd complain, and fiddle with it for a while, I'd know to take it back to the store (if they'd take it... no way of getting my snazzy new gift replaced until after the store gets a new shipment.. who knows how long that could be), or to be forceful with customer service when they started jerking me around... but think of the target market.

Imagine yourself back in grade 6, you get a brand new console for Christmas, plug it in, just start getting excited, and it blue screens. What do you do? Fiddle with it, then complain to mom or dad. Chances are they won't be able to help, so they have to spend 20 minutes talking to customer support and another 2 weeks waiting. Meanwhile, you are determined that this Christmas sucked, and that mom and dad don't care about your gift. Will I tell my friends how cool my X-Box is? Will they want to buy one? Will my parents ever talk about how happy their kid was, or how good the service (that should be included in the price) is?

Well?

The problem with this disaster is not so much that computer problems happened, or that service sucked. It's that the people producing and servicing the product aren't used to the new customer base they are getting. 10 year olds... impatient 10 year olds.

When you are producing products for children, they should be durable, reliable, and long lasting. A successful console is one that will stand up to all of the difficulties of having kids play with it, and one that will be around long enough to develop a loyal customer base.

Do you remember Nintendo's, SNESs... even playstations? Those things are indestructible. And the service really is great.

Anyhow, my point is this: This is not a product that can be dealt with hap-hazardly. These consumers are vicious, and uncaring. If it doesn't work well... every time... its crap. Period. In this kind of market you have to be able to back things 100% and this manufacturer isn't ready to do it.

My prediction? With the exception of a few software manufacturers, the X-Box will be gone by next Christmas.

Re:A console is not just a computer...

[EvilStein]

"Do you remember Nintendo?s, SNESs? even playstations? Those things are indestructible. And the service really is great. "

WTF?? Indestructible my ass! My stupid Nintendo (2 of them) required setting a book on top of the thing to keep the game cartridge in place because that flimsy spring mechanism they used failed constantly. Basically every Nintendo unit I've seen has some sort of heavy object sitting on it to keep the game from springing out. :P

The Playstation? *sigh* Just put the wrong modchip in it... then see how far you get. =/

I have actually had no problems at all with my Dreamcast. :-)

Re:Stephen King, author, dead at 55

[fmaxwell]

It's not a joke, it's just a hoax.

The idiot that posted it didn't even do his homework. Stephen King was born on September 21, 1947. Therefore, he is 54 and he will not turn 55 until September 21, 2002.

Our xbox impressions

[sprayNwipe]

Well, we imported an xbox (to Australia). You can imagine that we were doubly annoyed that when we got it the DVD Drive wouldn't open. We're going to have to send it back, obviously, but defects like these are even more annoying when you can't just send it to your local service centre.

And while everyone is saying "Yeah, but it's less than 1%, and Nintendo has less than 1% too", think about what you are saying. With these figures, MS could have shipped 10,000 faulty boxen, and Nintendo 100, and they'd still be both under 1%. The only difference is that one has a 1 in 100 chance of failing, which isn't good odds in anyones book, anti-MS fud or not.

Customer Service

[futuresheep]

A 1.3% problem rate for customer service is pretty damn good, and much better than what some companies I've been invloved with consider an acceptable rate. Just like the delivered product, there are bound to be failures in service. Restaraunts try to deliver a meal the same way each time it's served, but sometimes the steak is overcooked, and every now and then a ride is down at Six Flags. Get over it. Mistakes happen.

This particular outsourcing company is horrid

[Hi-Tech Redneck]

The main reason X-Box support ranks so low right now is that it is outsourced to Harte-Hanks in Austin. Believe me, I've worked there. Despite the best intentions of the companies that hire them, somewhere down the overly deep trail of managers, the intentions get twisted into "screw the customer."

The employees are undertrained high school students, college students, and poor saps like me who just couldn't find anything better at the time. Since management is never very forthcoming with information, and eventually, a phone tech gets tired of having to dig for information that should be readily available. So we give up, we lose any joy in our jobs, and the customer loses any hope of decent support. Welcome to the outsourced call center.

In fact, having worked the Sega account there, I can sqarely place a large chunk of the blame for death of the Dreamcast on Harte-Hanks. As much as I dislike Microsoft's general business practices, the XBox is still a very nice system and I'd hate to see HH kill it, too.

Maybe they're referring to Hanukkah

[ColGraff]

That would make it "Several weeks", just. Although an X-Box is a little pricey for a Hanukkah gift. :-)

Re:Duh,

[Guppy06]

"People sometimes need to understand that just b/c you paid $300 for something does not mean that it is going to work and it isn't going to get repaired that instant. Chill."

Then Microsoft needs to understand that just because I paid $300 for it doesn't mean I don't expect it to work, and that I won't return it to the store and share my bad experiences with all my friends if I have a bad experience. If $300 isn't a high enough threshold for functioning hardware, then at what point DO I get what I pay for? $500? $1000? $5000?

"I enjoy my PS2. It has the time behind it and the games that are great. You just can't beat what it has."

There was another system that had "the time" behind it. It was called the Dreamcast.

Re:Why the xbox will die. Facts and reasons.

[mjpaci]

It is badly made and franky, it shows. I think it was outsourced in Mexico and to be honest, Mexico is not the center the of world as far as high quality standards go.

There was an article in Wired a few months ago about Flextronic (I think)--the company that does the actual building of the Xbox. These guys are all about quality. The people working in their plant are not the same quality of people putting together your VW. Don't get images of Juan Valdex\z in a sombrero putting PIIIs into Xboxes burned into your retinas. They employ skilled labor. Flextronic is all about maximizing value. If they can build a plant in Mexico and hire the same caliber of workers for less money and get the same quality, they're going to build the plant in Mexico. The Xbox isn't their only product either.

Go to the library and look back a few months in Wired. It was the cover article.

--Mike

Re:What did you expect?

[aka-ed]

Outsourcing houses can shrink like crazy, even if one or two projects within the company are growing explosively. At the moment, pretty much everybody in that business is shrinking, mostly because of a shrinking number of clients and new endeavors to replace the businesses that went bust over the past 18 months. Xbox is probably one of a very few bright stars on Sykes' horizon. The Xbox project is probably benefiting from the shrinkage in other projects (all their best people will be xferred to xbox instead of getting canned).

It works like this: If you have clients, you fill as many seats as your client will pay for, you cannot lose money on that. If your client wants X number of people on the phone, you put them there, or your contract will bite you in the ass.

If you still must shave staff, you take them from middle management, not people your client pays you for. The guys on the phone are "revenue-producing." The supervisors and the managers are "non-revenue producing."

One thing that's certainly happening right now is that none of their support staff is experienced. How can they be? The things just started rolling off the lines a few weeks ago, when their staffers were out looking for work. Since we are talking about outsourcing here, we are not talking about highly-paid technical staff. Usually a client will specify a minimum rate of pay for new hires, and I guarantee it's no more than $12 an hour, possibly as low as $8. There's a fair number of bright, technically-adept people who will work for that pay, but the vast majority of applicants are not those people! Guess who gets hired? Well, if a project has a tight deadline, everybody,, because if the seats aren't filled to the client's quota when the date arrives, you lose big. The real incompetents, the ones who make you scream and tear your hair out when you get 'em on the phone, tend to weed themselves out over time.

Stores were told....

[bdavenport]

a buddy of mine is the manager of The Game Stop (aka Babbages). he told us when we purchased ours (1st release day) that MS wanted all returns to go thourgh their contracted companies. His store (the most active store in Houston) was providing customers with this same info.

not sure what would happen if an angry customer came in and demanded a new unit within 30 days, but i do know he was told to refuse giving out his stock as replacements.

his MS rep told him there were two reasons for this:

1) giving out a new unit in exchange would lower the Xbox's launch sell total. MS was adamant that they would sell all 1.5 million units pre Dec 31st.

2) MS wanted to be able to tightly manage returns - which it has greater control over when owners ship their defected units to centralized locations.

sounds like the contracted company that MS chose sucked. guess i was fortunate...mines been playing 3-5 hours a day for the whole time! :-)

Re:Stores were told....

[jcostom]

I purchased an Xbox a couple of weeks before Christmas from my local Target store (at about 11am, when they had about a dozen xboxes on the shelf). I also picked up the Monster 300X+100LX (essentially s-video + optical) connector, to get nice picture with DD5.1. Guess what? The DD5.1 was malfunctioning. I packed up everything and returned to Target the same day at about 4pm. I was first given the song and dance about MS wanted returns to go through them.

I put it very simply to the sales weasel. It went something like, "I, your customer, spent over $500 of my hard-earned cash this morning in this very store. The product you sold me is defective. Are you refusing to exchange it for a replacement product, which presumably will work? Oh, you are? Get the store manager here, now."

I explained the situation to the store manager, and outlined what I felt were acceptable options at that point... 1. Exchange the console and make me happy, or 2. Take back the whole lot, games and all, and give me my $500 and change back.

Funny thing? 5 minutes later, I was walking out of the sture with one of the 3 xboxes that were left. Went home, hooked it up, and the DD5.1 worked great. Bottom line? Stand up for your rights as a customer.

Re:What did you expect?

[Steve Cowan]

Just about all large companies will outsource their call centre-based customer service to companies set up to do just this sort of thing. It's unfortunate because it seems that no 1-800 number you call will ever be able to answer an advanced question.

Call centres are just sweatshops full of min-wagers who can usually only dole out information from FAQ lists they are given about their products.

"Thank you for calling Colgate, this is Kevin, how can I help you?"

"I was calling about my Xbox, actually."

"That's odd, you came in on my Colgate line. Hold for just a moment please. (long wait) OK, I spoke to my supervisor, he says this call definitely came in on the Colgate line. What number did you call?"

"Look, I just have a question about my Xbox, can you help me or not?"

"Oh, OK... let's see... here we are. What's the problem?"

"My hard disk is making a chattering noise and I was wondering if that's normal."

"OK, well I see if you try to raise the back of the bed too far past its maximum position it will start to make a chattering noise, is this what's happening?"

"Huh?"

"Oh, wait, sorry... I clicked Xbox on my computer, and it took me to Sleep-O-Matic! Hold for just a moment (long pause) OK, I spoke to my supervisor, and I definitely clicked on Xbox."

"Right, but can you help me with my Xbox?"

"Well, I'm trying... I can't bring the screen up."

"Oh, OK... let's see. What database are you running?"

"One moment... [long pause] OK my supervisor got me into Xbox. How can I help you?"

"Hard disk chattering."

"Oh yeah right. It says here that if you're playing 'Space Zombies' it's normal for Zog's entourage to make a hi-pitched chattering sound. Double check for me and make sure that's not what you're hearing."

"That's not what I'm hearing."

"OK, it also says that if Zog's entourage doesn't make the chattering sound, you probably have an audio connection problem, could you please check to make sure it's properly connected to your TV?"

<Click>

"Hello? Hello? Hmm, that's odd. Oh well... Thank you for calling Colgate, this is Kevin, how can I help you?"

Second that on IBM

[flimflam]

I bought a cheap ($400) blowout IBM PC from Egghead to play around with. It was really flat, so in order to get full height PCI cards into it, I had to cut two long slots into the case. About 2 days later it died completely. Called IBM, they sent a technician over. Anyone else would have seen the holes in the case and gone home. But this guy tried some stuff, determined it was a bad CPU and had me a new one in two days. Frankly I was amazed. On a $340 PC no less.

Re:errr what's today? Did people stop reading it?

[Legion303]

Hold up, there, Flamey, I never said *I* got a console for Christmas. I got a coffee mug. Even better, I got to spend some quality time with my wife.

Coincidentally enough, we had a $50 cap this year. We can't afford anything else.

-Legion

Re:Duh,

[SilentChris]

Touche, my friend. :) Dreamcast rocked.

Re:Counter Theory

[stripes]

Gaming is all that is left to drive PC tech

Sure...and I never wait for PhotoShop to finish something anymore. Or...hmmmm....I guess other then disk I/O and net I/O I can't think of anything else that I have to wait for normally, my compiles seem to be disk bound.

Well except for ray tracing, if I were to get back into it again. Computers have not gotten faster enough for that to be instant yet (3 days per frame on a P-III 500Mhz won't be instant fast enough on today's machines either).

Linux and Xbox are not incompatible

[Archie Steel]

It may suck for all you Linux lovers to have to admit this, but Micro$oft put togther a nice machine in the XBOX.

Actually, the two are totally unrelated. I am very pro-Linux on the desktop, because in my opinion it is a superior OS to Windows, and because MS has a monopoly their (I don't like monopolies). However, MS doesn't have a monopoly in the console world, far from it. So in that sense it really is the outsider in that very different market. So there really is no reason why a Linux "lover" couldn't or shouldn't own an Xbox.

Anyway, I'm getting an Xbox + Halo next week and playing it on the internet through my Linux LAN, proof that the two can coexist... Also, I may try one day to put Linux on my Xbox (when it will be reasonably safe to do so... it's still quite an expensive toy to mess around with).

OT: updated?

[dangermouse]

How did you 'update' your PS2? Did you have to buy the $20 DVD remote, or is there some free method Sony has hidden from me of updating the DVD software without shelling out more cash?

I'd really like to watch my Aliens: Special Edition disc.

Re:What did you expect?

[Animats]

California law requires California law requires in-state repair capability. Otherwise, the retailer has to honor the warranty. The retailer always has warranty liability in California unless they put "AS-IS" or "WITH ALL FAULTS" on the product where you can see it before the sale, like used cars.

Re:[OT]Re:Personal experience

[SilentChris]

Part of the problem is that the newer systems use a mechanical device to get the media going. The older solid state systems only needed to send some energy through the ROM chips. And make sure the connections are solid.

CD-ROM and DVD-ROM systems have to physically spin a disc, keep it at a reasonable speed, and shine a laser off it. They would probably be better luck if they could keep the media steady and somehow figure a way to send a laser bouncing over the whole disc.

The systems are probably going to be changed to all-broadband download systems eventually. Just download from a really wide pipe somewhere.

FYI ...

[flufffy]

... Ramadan is not part of the mid-winter 'holiday season.'

It is a festival that is determined by the lunar calendar.As lunar months are shorter than solar months, the Muslim lunar year is shorter than the western solar year by about 11 days. Ramadan thus occurs about 11 days earlier each year and can thus occur at all times of the year.

When I was in Morocco about 13 years ago, it was in about April. 13 years later year, Ramadan is about 11 x 13 = 143 days earlier, or November-December, which is where it was last year.

http://www.colostate.edu/Orgs/MSA/events/Ramadan.h tml has some basic details.

Re:FYI ...

[gmhowell]

I was not implying that Ramadan is normally a part of the holiday season. However, take a look at the popular press, and many are including it this year, because, just by happenstance, it coincides quite well with Xmas and Hanukkah.

That would be cool, but still to expensive

[ColGraff]

In my family (don't know about others, sorry), $200 is usually the cap for total money spent on gifts per person.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Counter Theory

[jmauro]

Except "Gamers" tend to buy parts without an operating system and tend to stay away from complete systems with the OS and Microsoft's main revenue stream is from businesses buying the OS not home users. I doubt MS is trying to tank the XBox. Why spend all that money on it just to intentionally tank it.

I also worked at harte-hanks

[doublem]

Hiring harte-hanks is the corporate equivalent of saying "We don't give a F***"

During my time there, my MANAGER told me that if a company really cared they wouldn't have hired the firm.

They're somebody you hire when you want to say you have a call center, but don't care if anything is actually accomplished by it.

One of the accounts I worked for was the warranty number of a defective tape measure that was being sold by Sears. Our job was to essentially tell them that unless the rivets had come out of the little metal tab that was attached to the tape measure itself, it wasn't covered by the warranty.

The case fell apart during the first day of use? Too Bad.

The spring that recoils the tape broke when you opened the package? Too Bad.

The tape broke when you uncoiled it for the first time? Too Bad.

And don't get me started on how they distribute "Information." Fuzzy photocopies thumbtacked to the cubicle walls.

The training session consisted of a video on how to handle brokerage calls. Nothing to do with our jobs, but it was "phone etiquette" training.

They also placed a lot of outgoing telemarketing calls. While I was there I made sure to put myself on all of their "Do Not Call" and "Do Not Mail" lists.

We were also told not to put someone on the "Do Not Call" list until they asked to be removed for the second time in the conversation.

I made the mistake of getting my manager when a caller wanted to "speak to the manger." I got chewed out for 20 minutes after the call. Apparently, you're supposed to hand the call to whoever is in the next cubicle and they become your "manager" for the duration of the call. This is to save the real managers time. I was once "Fired" by the girl next to me for the way I'd handled the call. After the caller hung up she and I had a good laugh at my "unemployed" status.

I'm now VERY glad I got a PS2 today. Now that I know harte-hanks is handling the calls, I know Microsoft doesn't care about providing service to ANYONE who buys the product. "Ship it and forget it."

www.matthewmiller.net

Re:All I can say...

[Jagasian]

Blowing on the connectors for a Nintendo game actually makes the problem worse in the long run because it speeds up the corrosion of the connectors, which is what is wrong in the first place.

The proper way to deal with the issue would be to clean the connectors on your games and your NES using an electrical contact cleaner/enhancer. Not expensive at all, and it is consider proper care for electrical connections.

Next thing you are going to tell me is that Honda Civics are crappy unreliable cars because they stop working, even after you blew really really hard into the oil tank as opposed to changing the oil like you are supposed to do. Please don't tell me that you use spit for heat sink grease on your computer's CPU. Oh wait, even better, do you kick your computer chasis whenever something doesn't work, in the belief that you are fixing things?

Yeah, my Playstation CD had some dust on it, so I used a piece of sandpaper to brush off the dust. Oh no, my games don't work anymore. Maybe if I spit on the Playstation, it will start working... no, maybe if I kick it really hard.

I have a few NES systems that I still play to this day, and as long as you take care of them, they work %100 of the time.

that's funny.

[Erris]

M$ does not make the box, they just make owning one that does not work suck. Seeing other posts that claim that M$ won't let stores take back the broken boxes in exchange for one that work, ha ha.

M$, we don't make things, we make them suck.

Re:Duh,

[Apreche]

analog sticks are better because if you move them a little bit you move a little bit on screen. If you move them all the way to the edge you move a lot on screen. So if you are controlling a character who walks around you can make it tiptoe, sneak, walk, run, and go into a mad dash by moving the stick more. with a digital pad you are either going or not going in one of 8 directions. analog allows pretty much 360 degrees of movement.