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Belgium: A Computer in Every Home
joost writes "In an article published online by Belgian newspaper 'Het Nieuwsblad' (sorry only a dutch link), Belgian minister Miss Laurette Onkelinx speaks about her plan to provide every Belgian household with a computer. The minister is (amongst other things) responsible for 'equality' and therefore pushes the plan to provide the less fortunate with a pc. In the same article, she said she already started talking to Compaq for the hardware and Microsoft for the OS. Belgian Linux users are starting a campaign to petition Miss Onkelinx's departement, explaining their concern about the decision, and advising to look towards linux for an alternative.(more on be.comp.os.linux) You too can send an email by clicking here."
Who's going to pay for all of the O'Reilly Books if they do use linux? And then you bet there'll be a flame war about which distro to use.
for linux on the desktop, and equality in technology, if only they would use linux.
Don't get me wrong, linux is a great OS, BUT do you seriously think it's ready for deploying on a large scale as a general desktop?
What about apps?
Linux (or BSD, or...) with say StarOffice full screened would prob. do most ppl. After would it really be anything more than a type writer & web terminal?
;)
mlk, not really sure that Linux is the best choice. AtheOS maybe (in a few years
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
Miss Onkelinx speaks about her plan to provide every Belgian household with a computer
With a name like that, she could even get distro named after her
...if she does the right thing
You put an email address on the front page of /. and you do not even obscure it.
/. reader is not going to be objective or polite. It mostly certainly is not going to aid the cause of putting Linux on these machines.
/. hurts more than helps the wide spread adoption of Linux?
/. is _NOT_ the place to post email addresses of individuals who are percieved not to get it. The typical
I wonder if
A don't forget the plan is to provide the less fortunate with a pc to me, less fortunate probably means less educated as much as anything (generally speaking); would these people seriously use a linux pc?
Don't get me wrong, I love linux, but it's not for everyone YET
I don't see any reason why people cannot choose their own OS. Oh, right, this is a government project. Forgive my initial ignorance.
Or at least, this is a government project. It should be open bidding. Lets see Microsoft under-bid "free".
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
Hmm, BeOS with Gobe would of been great here[1].
mlk
[1] Assuming
a) Be Inc was alive/OpenBeOS had a little more time
b) The Browser Situaltion was looked after
c) BeOS had a better locale kit
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
... But Universities buy state of the art hardware. I imagine that the hardware being purchased for this purpose will be "Discount hardware". Im sure they arent intrested in putting a Sparc Station in every home. So in this case Licences will be a much larger portion of the cost. Also, im sure even if you work for a big 10, there are more people to worry about than at your University.
Im not here now... Im out KILLING pepperoni
Every Belgian citizen has been given a new computer thanks to minister Miss Laurette Onkelinx's campaign for equality however many of them are not using them for their intended purpose.
One Belgian used his as a stepping stool while cleaning his windows. "I powered the [darn] thing up and played around with it for a few minutes but I couldn't get anything done," said Hermsh Obernikle, "then the bulb in the hallway went out and so I toted the box over then to stand on, it works great!"
One homemaker, who asked not to be identified, was at home testing out her new computer when a bandwidth crazed crimi-geek broke into her house. "Thank goodness my new computer had linux on it", she said, "the [intruder] was so mesmerized that he stayed on the computer for hours doing something with the [kernel] thing until the police arrived." She went on to say that she was glad that linux saved her life but was unsure what she was going to do with it after that.
42 - So long and thanks for all the fish.
It sounds to me like the budget has already been ironed out and that the budget for these PC's includes a provision for Windows. If so, can we stop for a minute and think about the GOOD things that come out of this?
-- Every person in this country gets access to a computer that they might not have had at all. They get Internet access, which provides them with a wealth of new information. Some of them will pursue computer-related jobs that wouldn't have otherwise. In general, the country will benefit from this.
So why is it necessary to post an article on Slashdot basically asking people to flood this government with email complaining about Microsoft? Can we leave well enough alone and accept that the more computer-literate people there are, the better our industry benefits as a whole? These people will buy our hardware. They will visit our websites. They might even patronize Slashdot. This is a good thing.
It's sad, really, to see what should have been a "look what this great country is doing!" article turn into a pro-Linux, anti-Microsoft rant. I'd much rather see Slashdot readers take their time to go volunteer computer training or to build hardware and install software at a local school than to see Slashdot readers criticize a country for what is, in the long run, an incredibly Good Thing.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
Speaking of providing the less fortunate with a PC...
I'd just like to put in a plug for Kite, Inc.: "a nonprofit organization addressing the global digital divide by offering free, customized computer support packages and technical training to community groups in the 'Third World'."
Do you buy books? Then you can help them, by purchasing from galtbooks: "The mission of galtbooks is to assist charitable and community organizations in generating revenues for their cause."
No, I am not affiliated with either organization. I only heard of them just recently, and thought "wow, I'm really glad someone's doing that". Sorry if this comes off as just more spam.
--Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
It'd be swell if they used Linux, but only Windows and Mac are really feasible for something like this (and not even Mac so much because of price). Elderly Belgian women using a computer for the first time would receive one under this plan. They need something cheap and easy to use, that does their basic stuff. As much as I dislike Windows, an inexperienced person would be able to pick that up much faster than Linux, and has little need for Linux's power features.
Luckily for those of you who don't want free market share given to MS, socialist plans like this are doomed to failure anyway.
The goatse guy for president. Win one for the gaper!
I use linux, I like Linux and I've deployed it in many production enviroments but my enthusiasm for it is tempered by the realization that it's not quite ready to be considered suitable for beginning computer users, and thus probably not appropriate for deployment en masse to the less fortunate in Belgium or elsewhere.
I am making an asumption here, that most of 'the less fortunate' mentioned in the article will be first-time computer users. Given this asumption, you could argue that these uers have history using other OS's, they should be able to adopt the Linux paradigm more easily than those unfortunates who were brought up using MS Windows. On the other hand, if these users are not familiar with computers it would be most beneficial to provide them with the simplest enviroment possible (and by that I don't mean WebTV). With this reasoning, the government should deploy iMAC's to everyone. You'd think Apple would jump if given the opportunity to penetrate this new market.
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
I imagine that the Distributing Companies would like to since that is how they make money. Since they dont make money off of licenses, Tech support is their thing : )
Im not here now... Im out KILLING pepperoni
At my university, we get our annual dose of Suns dirt cheap. All computer manufacturers give huge disscounts to universitys, it's market segmentation as well as a very positive branding.
To bad Solaris SUCKS for desktop usage. There has been a bug in Suns X-server for ~5 years now that allows you to remotely crash another users X-server if they use Zephyr. There are several other known crash-exploits for this bug as well. The bug is still open. Never existed in XFree86.
Try out fish, the friendly interactive shell.
The "free" argument doesn't wash either - for such a large purchase it impossible that the government would pay the going consumer rate per install. In fact, I suspect they would pay at most 40% of the cost of being each copy of Windows independently.
If everyone in Belgium had a copy of XP, police could just require you to carry your Microsoft Product Activation Key with you at all times.
More to the point, they are doing a disservice to the market by buying everyone the same computer. They should simply provide a tax credit or a voucher for the purchase of a PC, and let the consumers decide what they want. One size will not fit all, particularly for people who already own a PC.
Belgium is one of those openly socialist countries, like the United States, that doesn't use the word "socialist" because of the generally bad reputation that the word brings.
Instead, they use words like "equality" with the meaning of "equal outcome" rather than just "equal under the law." Their tax rates are very high, and as long as people go along with what the government programs provide, people are "happy" the same way that worker ants are "happy".
Problems occur in such a situation if you introduce too much choice. This leads to un-equal outcomes, resentment or resistance to one-size-fits-all government programs, and increasing unease since someone always feels "left out" because their outcome wasn't as good, in their opinion, as someone elses.
I really hope this program does not come to pass. 25 years ago, France decided to do this same thing, with their Mintel program. Its 300 baud command line time sharing system was advanced, at the time, but France was left in the toilet as the rest of the world developed graphical applications and interfaces, distributed information sources and efficient IP networks.
However, the only cost to government is the rare risk that a politician might not get re-elected. There is no other "cost", since they spend other peoples money. For that reason, the politicians of today may very well repeat the Mintel disaster simply because it looks good in time for the next election. Everything else is secondary.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
Simple, they can choose which Linux they want. Many distros have downloaded versions ready.
As for the books, they can read howtos and probably contact local LUG guys. I know I'm going to be flamed for this, but most of the people needs to use computers just for typing, e-mails and browsing internet. Do you think they'll need books for this? Local LUG can volunteer here.
The aim in using Linux is to save millions so that the govt can relocate the OS budget for something else.
--
Error 500: Internal sig error
Think of all the misery that could have been prevented if this had been implemeted 20 years ago? Young Jean-Claude Van Damme could have been steered away from martial arts with a timely dose of computer games and warez cracking.
If only the Belgian Government had had a little more vision, films like 'Hard Target', 'Street Fighter' and 'Universal Soldier' might never have been made.
Little use in trying now. Only once every 50 years or so does something noteworthy come out of Belgium and JCVD was it for this half-century. We had our chance to stop this and we blew it...
Just what we need. Ten million more Jerry Lewis fanpages.
------------
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I am an expert in electricity. My father held the chair of applied electricity at the state prision.
Let's do think of the good that can be done. While dumping M$ boxes on the world may be better than dropping bombs, we can always do better if we try.
Let's say Microsoft decides to dump windows on these poor people at no cost. They should refuse on grounds of security. Why would they want to make their internet look like SirCam and "I love you" all day? Sorry, that's not a rant it's a simple statement of fact that M$ makes a single user OS that does more to cripple a machine than use it.
If M$ does not dump the reasons are even more obvious. Every Euro not spent on OS can be spent on computers. This means more people get them faster, or the savings can be put to something else useful. One useful thing might be to fund a configurations and help group to work out hardware problems and offer other general help. The publication of such a group would be of use to all. Money spent on a second rate OS from a forgein company is not money well spent.
You are obviously a man.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
I'm all for making computers affordable,
but if people don't want one enough to get one, what are they going to do when it gets pushed through their door?
I can see Eastern Europe filling up with these units.
'There is a Light that never goes out.'
"If they're going to provide computers to everyone, then they need an OS everyone can use. That breaks down into two possibilities: Windows and MacOS. "
Errr, why? If every household in the country has the same configuration, the barrier to entry to Linux for the computer illeriterate becomes reduced... they can talk to the neightbours about their problems! The market penetration will become great enough that social factors will overcome things that are normally an issue.
Windows is "easy" for many because it's what they are used to. It's not intuitive (Click on "Start" button to shut down machine is not intuitive or "easy) as people keep making it seem to be.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Holy crap, just about every response I've seen is in favor of MS, not linux for this. Did someone at MS email the whole company like with that ZDNet poll that they rigged?
Recent versions of Mandrake are nearly as easy to use as windows, and gets better with every release. If mandrake made a dumbed down version of their distro with the same features of windows ME, I'm sure there wouldn't be a problem. Plus, if you've used OSX lately, you'd realize how much more advanced it is than windows. Easier to use too, but still has lots of power under the hood.
Seriously, I can't imagine that Belgium will want to tack on $300 for an OS on each machine, and another $450 for an office suite. That's insane.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
God forbid they use the money saved on O$ to buy books, or that they put those books in a public library! The information anarcy must be stoped burn the libraries now.
Here is a vote for Debian, one distro that will always be free. I can see some other great uses for that O$ savings. State funded mirror sites, mmmmm, a help office with a nice little web site and staff dedicated to making EVERY piece of hardware distributed work perfectly, mmmm a tuned distro via deb packages, more computers for everyone, mmmmmmmmmm.
I've got an overwhelming urge to eat ice cream now. You M$ trolls don't go pretending to be Linux zelots flooding the emails while I'm gone. I hate it when people act like jerks for me.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Better to simply provide a tax credit, and let consumers make their own choices.
You know, there seems to be an increasingly strong contingent of people of the "Let's think rationally. Windows is probably the best choice here" people. Perhaps there is some bitterness amongst the faithful?
Why not linux? the average home user who doesn't know crap about a computer is going to have just as hard a time with WinXP as with Mandrake setup for the home user (i.e. 1 desktop environment, 1 mailer, 1 browser, etc). Heck, maybe some of the new imacs. What I am saying is that the avergae user does not need office, they need a small word processor. They do not need exchange, they need a mail client that can do pop and recieve attachments.
I say go for it. I suggest mandrake because it's from that continent. Suse might be good as well, but i've had more experience with Mandrake.
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
Maybe they should learn a lesson from this: Free PCs for the poor on sale in black market... not everyone wants a PC, some people would rather have food and other basic needs.
Gee, from the tone of your letter we might assume that people on Slashdot are rude. You abuse the people who run the site you seem to enjoy and that seems to be the sum of your contribution. Thank goodness you are not the typical Linux user.
Now let's think a little about that. What makes you think that M$ slaves are not already flooding the address with tons of abusive and stupid comments (like yours!) for us already? You know, trolls like we see here all day? In this instance, as in so many others, the finacial incentives for such "aggresive" abouse are clear. If it were not for the moderation system that Hemos and others developed, useful comments would be lost in piles of M$ astroturf here. Even so, it's difficult to fight all the toads. Your example proves the usefulness of the address inclusion, thank you.
Hopefully many people will write well reasoned letters that will shine through the noise. We all know the superiority of any Linux distro: stability, privacy, ease of use, ease of upkeep, ease of software upgrade and addition. We all know the good things that all the money not spent on M$ "products" can buy. We can write many inpired and polite letters expressing those things. I'm proud of all the useful, well reasoned and well put letters I've seen from previous letter campaigns, such as the RAND fiasco, and I expect to be proud of the letters that get sent this time too. The exercise is much easier after reading some of the nice clear posts that will rise to displace your abuse.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
The OS has nothing to do with user interface. Many people are using Linux everyday in embedded systems or servers without even knowing about it.
My father (who is by all means not a techie) uses Linux daily to play LOKI games. I did the installation, but usage is as simple as can be.
By many aspects, Linux is easier than Windows. It's easier for the experts, and it's just the same on the basic level.
Make even shorter URLs - 8LN.org
Predictably, this article generated a storm of posts about how Linux isn't ready for this, or Linux would confuse users, or Windows is better supported or...
However, when you read the actual, detailed arguments about why Linux is a bad choice for this project they boil down to two things: Linux is too hard to install and there aren't enough people around who know how to use it.
In the first case, do you really think the Belgian government is going to ship each user a PC without any software on it, and a pile of CDs to install? Why don't they just ship a pile of components, while they're at it? The government is going to buy a whole bunch of identical machines pre-installed with some idential collection of software, all configured so it will run right out of the box. Whether Linux is hard or easy to install isn't really all that relevant, since the users won't have to install it. And, unlike Windows 9x systems that experience an "entropy" effect whereby they gradually become less and less usable until finally you have to reinstall them, Linux boxes tend to run forever.
Second, in an environment filled with Linux boxes, how long do you think it'll be before the average person can call the neighbor kid over to fix any problems? Not long at all. On well-known hardware, with a nice GUI installed Linux isn't any harder to use than Windows, it's just *different* (and not really all that much different). Not to mention the fact that if the Belgian government took all of that cash that they were going to spend on Windows and Office licenses and instead spent it on setting up a support infrastructure for those machines, the net result would probably be *better* support.
There are also some really significant advantages to free software in this situation. The largest one is the application software available. What? Absolutely. Yes, there is more software available for Windows machines, but there is more *free* software available for Linux. Both environments include the most basic stuff by default; browser, e-mail client and multimedia player. Unless you buy Office for each machine ($$) Windows doesn't have a word processor, spreadsheet, etc. Unless you buy Quicken or Money for each machine, no personal accounting system. MS Paint hardly counts as an image editing program.
A pre-installed Linux box with KDE, an office suite (StarOffice would be ideal, I'll bet Sun would give them free licenses) and the standard collection of packages that come with every distro would provide a low-cost, easy to support solution that does pretty much everything a basic user needs right out of the box. No command lines, no arcane syntax -- except for the kids who have tons of time to invest in learning how this thing ticks, and what better system could an up-and-coming techie have? (And don't give me that "They should have a Windows box because that's what they'll use in the workplace" crap. What they'll use in the workplace will change five times before they get there, and it will be deep understanding of how one system fundamentally works under the covers that will translate well and stand them in good stead, not superficial knowledge of which buttons to click. Hell, I grew up on a Timex Sinclar 1000, a TI-99/4A, a Commodore 64 and an Atari 520ST.)
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
What's this "Write your congressman!", but no, wait, "Don't write to Belgium!" dyspepsia going around on Slashdot? I guess you're only supposed to advocate that people you agree with get involved. I disagree wholeheartedly with your sentiment that this is a "good thing". This would be terrible. I certainly wrote a letter, as follows:
/use/ computers, but also to advance the state of computing. To actively participate in, rather than passively subsidize, the digital revolution. It does so by promoting four essential freedoms:
I urge you to please abdicate your decision to pursue having Microsoft provide software in your (noble) effort to conquer the digital divide.
If you would truly like to present the people of Belgium with an opportunity to participate in the global digital revolution, you should promote the use of free software (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html). Free software empowers people to not only
* The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
* The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
* The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
* The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits. (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
Installing proprietary software, such as that produced by Microsoft, will only serve to shackle the people of Belgium to Microsoft's eternal desire for profit. While profit is a worthy objective, when it becomes the highest objective, as it has for many corporations, other worthy principles often fall to the wayside.
Since you are just beginning this venture, now is the best time to avoid the eternal dominion of Microsoft's licensing entanglements and other schemes to ensnare and entrap new legions of revenue enhancing impotent users. Avoid this path before it is too late.
--Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
With a Linux system there could be specially constructed versions for different levels of experience and different needs, there could be 'upgrade' CDs that will reconfigure machines to take users to a new level.
With Windows/Office you _must_ do it the way MS want, and must pay. If a Linux system is used it can be done the way that users want.
Garbage. Just to address your example, double-clicking a menu item will work fine, and I see people do this at work all the time, as well as people who double-click hyperlinks. As far as single clicking, ever since IE 4.0 Desktop integration you've been able to make any icon, file, or executable in an Explorer window (the desktop is one) launchable with a single click.
On the whole, people who are only interested in trashing Microsoft don't realize how customizeable it truly is. One day my interest got piqued, and I started browsing around msdn.microsoft.com/library to figure out how the Google toolbar manages to add items to the IE right-click context menu. It turns out that I was able to write my own mini-script which allowed me to select text in an IE window, right-click and select "ROT-13" and, obviously, ROT-13 the text right in place. I was able to do the same thing with a textbox (like what I am typing in right now). I did this solely with the information in the MSDN library on the API and a little VBScript knowhow, in about an hour. One can develop plug-ins and add-ins for just about any feature in Windows or any of the Office suite apps, anywhere from writing VBA (Visual Basic for Applications, which is built into every Office App) up to writing and compiling a dll in Visual C and using it as an add-in. In short, the argument that MS is not configurable is complete shite.
In order to download, something must already be running on the machine.
Like it or not, the machines will have to have something pre-installed.
The only question is who chooses what it is the user sees the first time they power up. The user? The government? The hardware distributer?
At the very least, this is going to be interesting no matter what's chosen.
I can imagine the Belgium Linux Users Groups putting together bootable CDs designed to support the Government Hardware Standard, then giving them away free saying something like "Don't Boot Without It!!!"
Of course, my personal preference for giving away millions of MacII-ci's running System 7.1 would piss off everyone.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
How's would that be any different than introducing them to Windows? It's not like there's anyone who is going to volunteer to do free tech support for a Belgium-sized population of Windows users, either.
It looks like one of the aspects of this thing is that these computers would be for people who don't already have computers. So the people who "need" (I use that term very loosely) these computers are less likely to already be Windows-trained than the general population. They're blank slates.
And when someone's a blank slate, any OS is just about as easy-to-learn as any other OS. If you don't believe that, watch a Win9x/NT/2k/XP newbie try to copy a file with "explorer" sometime, vs newbies on any other platform. The Mac newbies get it a little bit sooner, and after that, most other platforms are tied for second place.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I think the poster has a perfectly valid point. Unless the e-mail address is intended for receiving huge amounts of e-mail, it IS inconsiderate to post it on the front page of a news site that gets several hundred thousand viewers a day.
Microsoft can easily do that.
All they have to do, is give out Windows preloads for free as part of this deal, and include $5 rebate certificates with the computers. -5 beats 0. "But," you say, "then Microsoft loses money."
Nope. Part of the beauty of leveraging monopolies is that you can lose in one area and make up for it in another. Give 'em Windows and sell 'em apps.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Sorry, but one of the most basic aspects of intelligence is that you don't just look at the good side of one choice. My cat can be pretty single-minded and easily fooled, but most of the humans I know have at least a little more vision than that.
If you look at some of the other choices, such as not using Windows, you see that you have the same good points.
Then when you start looking at the bad points, the MS choice also stands out.
This "great thing" is just another perversion where socialism meets megacorp welfare. Belgium taxpayers will spend a shitload of money on hardware and software (it's not like the government can just magically declare that computers have no economic cost), and Microsoft gets an increase in marketshare (and not just in the OS market, but also by extension in other related markets, such as apps and even "content" (since the preloaded IEs will all default to some MS page)) without actually having to compete in the marketplace.
If Belgium's government made a deal with McDonalds where on January nth, every Belgium citizen gets a "free" Big Mac combo meal, would you be dancing in the streets about what a GOOD thing is coming out of this? Or would you see it as corruption?
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I'm a flavor of socialist myself, so I'm all for a more equitable distribution of that wonderful semiconductor laden stuff - in theory.
;). If people use them regularly, which if you give them to everyone for free is likely, the software you bundle them with (and the homepage they come preconfigured with) becomes a major issue. It is a serious tool that they can use to direct the nature of an emerging sector of public discourse. I can't even concieve of all the possible ways it could be abused, and the belgian government has a world class history of gratuitous acts of evil.
.net crap with it.
Computers, however, are a bit of a problem. Yes, I know the government puts them in libraries and schools allready, but computers (nowadays) are a communication device, and it is very easy to make them into a propoganda device. Government paying to put propoganda into libraries, and unfortunately public schools, is basically unavoidable (you can have meritocrats make the decisions, but that hurts as often as it helps,) but in people's homes? Everyone's homes?
It may just be the capitalist mind control rays making me say this, but - most of the people who get these computers aren't going to be especially computer literate, and if some flemmish speaking prole gets a computer from the government he is unlikely to reconfigure it when he gets home from a long day at the football riot
Alternatively, they can sell it to the highest bidder - if I were M$ I'd give them the OS and help pay for the machines (which have gotta be cheap at the moment) so that I could bundle all this
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
Step back a second and consider what is being proposed. *Every home* in Belgium would have a machine, which by default runs OS N. (I'd use "X" as my variable but that's taken. :-) )
Under these circumstances, damn near every objection raised to every OS I've seen mentioned are meaningless. If this went through, it would be a different world.
So OS N has some rough spots. So what? You neighbors all have OS N too. Every kid on the block has been exposed to OS N. A country full of people are working on helping each other learn the OS and "making it go".
Frankly, the discussion boils down to ONLY one issue, and that's "Proprietary or open?" And the answer is clear: Open.
A proprietary OS puts an entire country at the mercy of the vendor. While the country will certainly have a lot of "pull", you can bet that the marketing department of the company is going to get more and more brazen over time, and they DON'T have your best interests at heart.
An Open OS, be it Linux, FreeBSD, or whatever, imposes nothing on Belgium. Certainly if Belgium is going to put a computer in every home, they can afford to make their own distro, which can be as easy or as hard to use as they want, even to the TiVo extreme.
Everything changes when you're talking about a country in which every person you meet on the street has had experience with the OS you're using. (God knows Windows isn't the dream it's being portrayed as... or haven't you helped a new person learn Windows lately?)
Upshot: A proprietary OS will meet the needs of the developing company. An open OS meets the needs of Belgium. The choice is clear. Old arguments are irrelevant. Willingly selling an entire country into vendor-lockin is analogous to selling Manhatten Island for the proverbial handful of glass beads.
Ok, I'll bite...
Excactly, because as everyone knows, Europe is strongly underdeveloped and cannot compete at all with the superior technology that is so common in the US, I heard a rumour you guys even have indoor toilets and horseless wagons! So no way that any european would know one OS from another.
</sarcasm>Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
>Price just isn't a big as factor as everyone here thinks
:)
I agree. The freedom of not being locked into a proprietary solution and platform independance is a much bigger factor. Of course, this assumes people decide to look more than a few months into the future, which it seems no one will, except insightful university-level people such as yourself. Also, as is often taught in universities, the potential cost of backdoors and bugs that aren't reported in security-through-obscurity systems will often outweigh the cost of the OS itself!
Most importantly, and so often referenced by upper level educational instituions such as yours, is the inherent cost involved in using a system which you cannot yourself fix. A system which requires constant outside intervention will very quickly cause a huge support bill, nevermind the headache all the support technicians will end up with!
Of course, as someone who works at a university, I'm certain you are well aware of these problems surrounding OSes for which full disclosure of the code isn't aviailible, for which very poor API documentation is availiable, and for which support costs an arm and a leg. And, as a university equipment purchaser, I'm certain you understand that the staff and students at the university itself are able to repair any problems found themselves, should they be given access to the necessary tools, ensuring support costs are extremely low and repairs are lightning quick.
I'm glad you made the right decision and put BSD on all your systems. However, I'm not certain where Linux fails in the above requiremnts. Perhaps you'd care to explain.
Thank you.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Look, I live in the Central American country of Panama. I was born here and have dedicated a lot of time to understanding why third world countries are what they are (for better or worse).
Where I live, people are generally quick to accept technology, and like everywhere else, it has become a symbol of status. The guy that _tries_ to wash your windshield in a streetlight has a pre-paid cellphone here. Hell, ALL cellphone accessories are sold AT streetlights here. There are entire towns where houses are put together, rather than built, using materials and methods I still cannot comprehend, boldly defying conventional wisdom and the laws of physics, and yet they all have 2-3 25"+ TV sets, Big Stereo equipment, VHS, one generation old video game systems and more. Some even have satellite TV. We're talking about people that make $200-$500/month. And that's household income.
And yet I'm of the opinion that putting a computer in every home would not solve the problem of the so called digital divide, in fact, I think it would make it worse. Here's my rationale:
If a computer was given for free to every person in my country that can't (or won't) afford one, more than 95% of the people would break it, put it away, sell it (if market price doesn't go down too much), and in general, not value them for what they're worth (economically and intelectually). There are a lot of legitimate cases where people really need one and can't afford it, but even those would probably not value them as much as if they had worked and saved money for their own.
Sure, some 5% of the people would change their lives by having access to a computer, learning how to use it, hooking up to the Intenret an having access to all the information that's available (the good AND the bad which forces you to develop critical thinking). After all, this is similar to what happened to me when my parents won $10,000 in the lottery and bought me a $2,000 PC 10 years ago (now I have a consulting firm and i'm doing pretty well, thank you).
The problem is, you would still have a mayority that not only can't but won't use a computer, and a minority that does. Digital Divide anyone? Only this time it's not economically based, but intelectually based.
It's all a cultural problem. Most people don't use computers because they don't know how good it would be for them, for their carriers, for developing critical thinking, for improving their competitivenes (professionally), for having access to much more information, for improving productivity, etc.
This is not very different from someone giving you a supersonic jet for free, and telling you it's much better than your Honda Civic. There isn't much I can do with a supersonic jet to be honest, I see no reason to learn to fly if I can get around with my Jetta pretty well. Besides, they say learning to fly is very very hard, so why waste my time? Well, maybe I could sell that Jet to someone that does fly!
I believe the only way to actually close the Digital Divide (God, I hate clichés) is to improve the cultural level of developing populations, promote critical thinking, make people understand that they have to "work for it", and that in the end it's worth it (what capitalism is based on), and THEN let them BUY computers real cheap. Never give them away.
There's this little anectdote I want to share before I wrap this up. About 30 years ago there was this military dictator in Panama. A guy called Torrijos. Most people agree he was a pretty cool guy. You've probably heard that name if you're older than 20 and know a bit of history. Anyways, he used to give food and money away to people in a provice called Colon, the second largest city here. After a very short while, they got used to getting everything for free, and just adored the guy. Torrijos died in 1981 (they say it was Noriega, but who knows...)
Three years ago we were going to build an earth station in Colon, wire the area with fiber optics, provide local ISP service, etc. I interviewed over 40 Colon residents for different low level possitions. Nobody would work after 5PM (even when you pay the extra hours). The few we actually hired, would never, ever show up on time for work, and when they did you could still smell the alcohol. We decided to close the shop very quickly. Last week, MONADESCO (Colon Unemployed Movement) was barricading the streets of Colon. They want Jobs (as long as they don't have to work). They want food. They want money. You wanna give these guys free computers? right.
There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
howmany linux people would admin my firewall (on a casual basis) for less then $100/hour au. ($200/hour us)
How many competent firewall administrators would admin a firewall on a Windows box for less than $100/hour au? You're confusing two different things. Administrating a firewall is a complex, technical job and should be well-compensated.
Also, you asked what happens when something goes wrong: Well, if the box is installed correctly to begin with, it's far less likely that something will go wrong that it is with Windows.
Finally, either you have the wrong conversion rate or you worked it backwards -- $100 AU is approxumately $50 US.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
The basic guidelines that we all need to follow for sending email supporting Linux, or any other open source software are simple.
We must be courteous and kind.
NO FLAMES, this hurts their perception of the type of person that uses open source software.
Try to state things in a way that they'll understand. They need to see that Linux is a viable alternative for public use if it's implemented correctly.
Just use common sense, and don't say anything stupid.
This is unfortunately true - despite huge gains in ease-of-use, Linux is still not ready for my grandma.
My Grandma has no problem with it. I find I do a lot *less* maintenance on her computer since I switched her over. Well, actually, I find I do none. From her point of view it's pretty much the same as it always was: click this icon for e-mail, this one to type letters, this one to work on your genealogy...
The only way that I can see your Grandma would have a hard time with Linux is if she was middling-competent with Windows, i.e. able to install and remove software, change configuration options, etc.
Linux is easier for experts, the same level of difficulty for the clueless and somewhat harder for the intermediate user, IMO.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I second this!
If you've ever seen anyone using a computer for the first time, there really is no difference between KDE2, Windows... they suck on both of 'em.
I think the only reason why Windows seems easier to learn is that it doesn't have the advanced options that Linux has. And since the people who teach others are normally advanced and they teach how they use the system themselves... which is why people get scared with Linux when a guru goes straight to the command line and edits config files, even though there happens to be a perfectly usable and "user friendly" GUI to perform the same task.
So what we really need is people who are better at teaching Linux.
As an analogy, the average Linux user trying to teaching a newbie is the same as Shakespeare using Romeo and Juliet to learn somebody how to read... Whilst a Windows user never reads books that don't have big pictures and less than 50 pages.
Harsh, but about true, I think....
... and would they give every computer user a Belgium waffle?
Experience has shown that email addresses posted on /. tend to attract the same trolls who post their innane rambling here to post similarly innane and/or abusive crap to the unfortunate whos email address was posted.
*Hopefully* you are correct and everyone will write polite well reasoned mails, but somehow I suspect that the small handful of abusive idiots may cause more of a negative reaction than all the constructive mails put together.
A little planning goes a long way...
Anyone know of a translator that does Dutch -> English?
..... worldlingo.com does English->Dutch but not vice versa, at least, with machine translation...
The fish doesn't
Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
Here's the correct link to the article (still only in Dutch, but I'll try to translate in a following post).
This sig under construction. Please check back later.
(God knows Windows isn't the dream it's being portrayed as... or haven't you helped a new person learn Windows lately?)
I find it is more important to give new people a smack on the butt, a thorough bath, a warm towel, and a bottle. Otherwise, I doubt they'd live long enough to even learn what a window was.
*grin* Nice one... :)
Belgium is doing pretty well actually for technology...people don't usually realise that Belgium is a world leader in ADSL technology.
From internal news at Belgacom:
All switching centres in Belgium are ADSL enabled - and the first one was enabled in 1998. Not too shabby I think... :)
-- Pete.
Monochrome - Probably the UK's largest internet BBS
This sig under construction. Please check back later.
She's not really responsible for 'equality', but for 'equal opportunities' (or 'equal chances', I don't know the exact translation of the Dutch 'gelijke kansen' or French 'Egalité des chances'). A slight difference perhaps, but a significant one in my opinion. Clearly, not everyone is equal, but I think everyone should be given equal opportunities.
This sig under construction. Please check back later.
A PC in every home here in Belgium?
Damn, there goes my bandwidth.
Ministry of Employment and Labour, also responsible for Equal Opportunities (not Equality!)
This sig under construction. Please check back later.
Using an administred linux is no problem, it is as easy as using anything else. BUT installing anything, making any changes under linux requires considerable effort and knowledge. Eg, just because someone cannot afford a full computer does not mean that they cannot afford a tv card, or an ADSL connection either. Now who will tell them how to install these under linux? Compaq? I don't think so, they would have to resort to community help or if they can speak english RTFM. Can you sister search for rpms? compile kernel? patch it? Resolve tens of dependencies before intalling a single program? Can she do these after having R TFM? Notice that installing these devices is only a click and a reboot away in windows.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
(disclaimer : I am from Belgium so my opinions might be biased :))))
A better use of the money would be to have computers in publicly accessible places like libraries.
They would be also appropriate in schools where proper training of teachers would be required so that they don't become m$ point'n-click zealots and teach it. Then, when the kids will be adults, they will be well educated, get a job or better, create a company and don't need a free computer paid by those who work.
If you give a computer to a man, he will play quake until windows crashes but if you teach him linux, he will be able to do whatever he wants with a computer for the rest of his life.
Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education. Bertrand Russel
In order to evaluate the proposal to give away free computers to everyone, one has to know one or two things about Belgium.
First (and hopefully commonly known) Belgium is divided in two parts, one part speaking Dutch (5.5 million inhabitants), and another part speaking French (4.5 million inhabitants).
Second: the Dutch part is economically doing a great deal better than the French part. This is true when you evaluate on number of unemployed people, average wages, ...
Third: There have been socialists in our government for the last 50 years or so. Hence there is a lot of protection for the 'needy'. For example: Belgium has just about the highest income-tax in Europe (to startle some Americans: I (and my wife) pay 55% taxes on our income. Another example: Belgium has the highest rate of people getting money from government compared to working people. A staggering 103 people getting unemployment, disability, pension, ... per 100 working people. For comparison: France has 90/100, US has 60/100.
Last: As people are most concerned about themselves (this merrits a '-1 obvious') the 103 vote socialist to get more money/computers/free healthcare/whatever from the government. The 100 vote liberal (or central Christian) to pay less taxes.
Minister Onckelinckx is, as you may have gathered by now, a member of the socialist party of the French speaking part of Belgium. Her proposal is therefore perhaps great for the people that vote for her, but it obviously isn't for those (like me) that have to pay the bills.
On a side note: I wouldn't be at all surprised if that would turn out to be 'Pay the Bill'.
This proposal will eventually be burried, like so many other proposals from our ministers. A green party minister once suggested to close our national airport at night because of noise-problems. It's like all ministers agreed to each get a week in which they can try to step into the light by making the silliest possible suggestions. I'd suggest not paying too much attention to it.
I have a photographic memory for numbers. I know almost a hundred of them.
The minister is (amongst other things) responsible for 'equality' and therefore pushes the plan to provide the less fortunate with a pc.
/. at least, I would have expected a little more skepticism of a proposal that would give a government complete and unrestricted access to the majority of its citizens email accounts and hard drives. Would you be willing to sell your freedoms for some shiny new consumer electronics?
This smells like a belated attempt to jump on the Internet bandwagon to me. Why don't citizens get equal automobiles issued to them at the voting age? Why aren't citizens assigned to identical housing units? Why don't citizens queue every week at the supermarket to collect their equal shopping baskets of goods?
I strongly recommend that anyone who favors the idea of spending so much money on computers read Silicon Snake Oil by Clifford Stoll. In this book, he presents a compelling argument that, in education, the money would far better be spent on hiring more and better teachers, and actually taking the kids to museums rather than sitting them down in front of PCs loaded with CDROM encylopaedias. And in business, computers aren't the productivity panacea that they're touted as.
And, on
linux.be[dutch only] joost is a big submitter there.
But since the link is wrong, so for for "Read the article first.".
I think you've spoken well.
But I cannot completely agree.
A TV-set is not a computer. A computer is a much more complex piece of machinery.
There is absolutely no reason to know how a tv works. It has to do one thing, and that's to show tv programs on a screen.
A computer can do the same, with a tv-card and a monitor. But you can also use a computer for writing mails, recording/editing video, phone/fax, scanning/printing, whatever.
Sure, you can use a computer for a few simple tasks, like just wordprocessing, mailing and browsing the web. But for that you can just as well use linux, windows or macos.
Linux is not perfect. The first priority was stability, the second priority is gui (imo in this context). Some people say it's ready, but it's not quite there yet.
Windows is not perfect either. The first priority was gui, the second priority is stability. Some people say it's stable, but it's not quite there yet.
Just a sidenote:
When your tv is broken, the repairman might even tell you to just buy a new one, because it's cheaper then the repair.
What would you say when your computer had a major crash and the repairman told you to just buy a new one?
This wouldn't make sense to me.
Well, don't worry about that. We can get you back before you leave. (Dr. Who)
Wout,
please note that me and my family relied on public assistance in the past (unfortunately). We never voted for socialists. Also, there are a lot of working people who vote for socialists.
I think your opinion is full of manicheism. the Dutch part is economically doing a great deal better than the French part mmh yes but what's the point ? The region of Liège is doing better than the region of Charleroi, the region of Brussels (french speaking at 80 pc) is doing better than some places in the dutch part and the dutch part is doing better than a lot of places in Europe (congratulations).
So what's the point of comparing linguistic regions on an economic basis ? Maybe the propaganda of some political people works in a way. What is funny is that some (all ?) of them want brussels as the capital of Vlaanderen. Looks like some french speaking people are necessary anyway.
All in all, I also think that some people are cheating on the welfare state and it is also possible that there are more of them in the french speaking side of the country (though some do not speak french). BUT I REFUSE THAT ANY CITIZEN CAN BE PUT IN A CATEGORY BECAUSE OF HIS LANGUAGE OR ETHNICS OR RELIGION, etc. More precisely, I consider stupid the opinions that "unemployed people are lazy", "walloons are lazy" and so on.
Concerning the silly suggestion concerning the airport, I suppose you do not live in Zaventem.
Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education. Bertrand Russel
And the thing with Linux is, when you actually have computer problems, there are always ways to fix them.
"Fix them" also includes adapting them to work in the relevent environment. Which includes things being in (idiomatically correct) local langauges.
Most of the way that things work in Windows' internals are obfuscated and non-obvious, and very poorly documented even if you dig deep into the bowels of the MS site. Best case you find some stupid KB article that kind of relates to your problem, and you get a step-by-step on how to fix it.
You might also get a Knowlage Base article which says in effect "it's a feature rather than a bug".
With Linux, you ALWAYS have the source code. You ALWAYS know what is going on.
Rather "You can always find an expert to understand it"...
It' a small one but everything is in it.
Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education. Bertrand Russel
Something that a lot of these Linux folks don't understand is that people do NOT care to learn how a computer works or how to set it up or how to make it do anything else besides what they want it to do.
This is far more a critique of Microsoft's offering than anything else. With Windows people are expected to do all kinds of sysadmin tasks, simply to be able to use the thing.
Windows is very difficult for non-techies to learn how to use.
Also the model behind Windows is of a single user system where the end user performs administration tasks.
This is part of the problem with Windows the end user is expected to perform "techie" tasks.
If you want a system for the non techie then either if must be quite limited in what it can do (installing software is a complete no no) or the non techie needs a techie to set it up and service it for them.
Imagine if someone made a car where ignition timing, fuel/air mix, etc could be altered from the driving position. Further than the driver was expected to use these controls as part of driving...
It doesn't add to the discussion of posting or not posting an email address on /. but for those who care, the address is not the minister's address, but the address of her chief executive (or whatever you call those guys who call the shots when she's out)
/. and I did it 'cause I wanted some attention to be drawn to this issue, and I hope some other channels would take over the news.
Furthermore, I don't have a habit of posting on
I guess that worked since I received some email from local press.
As much as I dislike Windows, an inexperienced person would be able to pick that up much faster than Linux, and has little need for Linux's power features.
An in experienced person won't have preconceptions. Nor will they miss having to learn the "techie" which are expected for the WIndows end user is the sysadmin paradigm.
Give everyone an iMac. They should be able to get a good deal considering Apples financial situation.
Corporate welfare is bad enough in itself. But corporate welfare to a foreign company is even more daft.
* Third: There have been socialists in our government for the last 50 years or so. Hence there is a lot of protection for the 'needy'. For example: Belgium has just about the highest income-tax in Europe (to startle some Americans: I (and my wife) pay 55% taxes on our income. Another example: Belgium has the highest rate of people getting money from government compared to working people. A staggering 103 people getting unemployment, disability, pension, ... per 100 working people. For comparison: France has 90/100, US has 60/100.
* Last: As people are most concerned about themselves (this merrits a '-1 obvious') the 103 vote socialist to get more money/computers/free healthcare/whatever from the government. The 100 vote liberal (or central Christian) to pay less taxes.
Just do like the americans do: find where the people getting unemployment/disability/pension keep their marijuana, and start locking them up for it. You'll instantly turn a substantial chunk of the socialist voting block into non-voting slave labor in your prisons. Good for the economy, good for the libertarian political cause.
I wish I was joking.
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
Linux is not a user-friendly desktop OS.
Problem is that "user-friendly" is a term which has been tossed around so much that it's utterly, meaningless. There are good odds that whatever criteria are being used here would also lead to the conclusing that Windows wasn't "user-friendly" either.
If you include support structure costs It'll probably cost MORE than trusty ol' Windows
Considering that Windows is often unfixable without an expert physically going to the machine this claim is rather suspect.
Based on the type of hand-holding support I had to give these people, I think people who have never used a computer before should start with something much simpler than any version of MS-Windows; and I'm sorry, but Linux doesn't qualify.
What criteria is being used for "much simpler"?
Except that majijuana is not criminal in Belgium anymore
Breaking news (10 january 2002) :
The individual usage by adults whose consumption is not considered problem (that is out of control) and which does not cause social nuisance (confusions of the neighborhood or on the public highway, consumption in the presence of minors or on the public highway...) will not be pursued.
source : this site or this article
Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education. Bertrand Russel
As long as Linux is preinstalled and configured properly, elderly people would ever have a problem, because there would be no need to change anything. If they want to keep using KDE 2.2.2 forever because it does what they need, why change?
Umm, if it's preinstalled and configured, and they take their computer to a computer shop whnen they want new hardware, whats the problem? Loading software is easy with rpm files an Kpackage. And once it's working it will keep working. Most people I know take their computers to shops to get new hardware installed even when they are running Windows. So where is the problem?
Linux does come pre-installed and pre-configured. At least if you come to my shop.
For all you trolls and non-trolls out there who think Linux is hard to use. It's not. It's difficult to install and configure/get all hardware and software going nicely. But once that is done it's no harder than Windows.
90% of computer users always go to a computer shop to get major stuff done(like install new hardware, or upgrade windows) so they can continue to do that, and all the tricky Linux stuff can be handled by experts. This is what we do at the computer shop I work at. Use of Linux is simple. And the rest of those people who are more into computers will have no trouble getting a book on Linux and learning the finer points of using Linux.
Unless the e-mail address is intended for receiving huge amounts of e-mail, it IS inconsiderate to post it on the front page of a news site that gets several hundred thousand viewers a day.
What a bunch of balony. If the people in charge of a technological project of such magnitude aren't equiped to handle email, they shouldn't be making these decisions. This is exactly where comments should be sent; as opposed to, say, staring into your navel by confining your ranting to Slashdot.
Are you really afraid of people's manners, or maybe are you just afraid of what they might say?
--Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
Hey, how about this idea: if you *really* want people to get a crash course in "computer literacy" why don't you ship the computers without operating systems? I'm not joking. If they really want to use that shiny new $1500 piece of equipment they'll have to put something on it. And perhaps they *won't* want to pay ~$200 out of pocket to put Windows on it. Let them choose whatever they want.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Thanks a lot for this comment about manicheism!
If you are looking for divides between two communities, you will indeed find them and be able to emphathize them; make statistics about people crossing red lights in Kruishoutem, Dilbeek and Verviers and you will likely find big differences in behaviour, proving you right that one community is brilliant/hard-working and the other is lazy or whatever.
Yes, my native language is French, and no I don't vote socialist or depend on social security and yes I pay for the social security of people poorer than I, and yes I speak good Dutch as well.
Language just is not the problem. The problem with this project is that it will likely cost much more than just the PC and the OS (whose cost already is objectable). It would be a much better idea to offer computer training (or whatever other kind of training) to anyone who wishes. This would mean less money better spent than offering money-convertible goods to everyone. The lazy will not take the training and will not cost anything to the government while the most incompetent of all lazy jerks would never refuse the PC.
My 2 eurocents.
Um, we just set up yet another Linux install for relatives (we'd figured on making it dual boot, but Windows wasnt compatible with the hardware (cant install windows if the bios cant find the disk if it's too large. No problem with linux tho)).
And guess what? Works perfectly. They click the 'internet' button and it connects. They click the 'mail' button and read their mail... etc etc. And guess something else? They cant blow up the system by mistake, nor can the grandchildren when they play with the computer, because they have separate accounts on the machine.
Face it, Windows is _NOT_ easy to use, only easy to mess up for a new user. The only ones who find it 'easier' than linux are those used to Windows and who've never used anything else.
Those without computer experience wont be installing either Linux or Windows or any other OS soon (so, what would your elderly belgian woman say when the Windows install cd says 'cant find a hard disk'?). Linux has the advantage that when you have installed it for them, and if you tell them not to login with username root, then it wont blow up on them because they or a grandchild clicked somewhere they shouldnt.
For those using a computer for the first time, Linux fits the cheap, easy to use, does their basic stuff, and wont randomly break bill _perfectly_. While Windows is neither cheap, nor any easier, and will randomly break.
It's not a bunch of balony. It's simply polite. At least OBSCURE the address by textualizing it...otherwise spamming software will pick it right up. I'm sure this person will decide to have Linux installed after the 10s or so comments they read amongst the 100s of spam messages. Just plain rude.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
That being said, I agree that you can run Linux on much less expensive hardware than, lets say, Windows XP. However, if you are talking that many systems, it'd probably still be easier to buy new, but less than "cutting edge" hardware, probably something like a 700MHz AMD. It would be much too much paperwork and manual labor collecting and setting up used equipment.
Your Servant, B. Baggins
Great, now you have a few thousand computers with identical root passwords!
:)
... Ever powered off a Linux machine without halting it? Sometimes it makes u type in commands just to get it to boot up
Maybe. And if they ship with XP, it'll be identical "Administrator" passwords.
Granted you will still get it in XP, they can always configure it from the images to load the default user account automatically, without a login
If they use Gnome, GDM can use "pictures" for logging in, and can also be easily configured (read: with a GUI) to log in a particular user on boot. So this is also the same. (KDE can probably do this too, but I don't use it, so I wouldnt' know.
Linux is a bit easier to break than windows
"u" ever used ext3 before? Works great, y'know...
Not only that, Netscape Navigator tends to crash, and bring everything down with it
Mozilla, Mozilla, Mozilla. Navigator is DEAD.
I've got strong suspicions it'll be equipped with at least something, if only Works.
Or they could install a *real* suite like OpenOffice...
Linux is becoming *quite* usable on the desktop. Anyone who's installed a recent copy of RedHat could tell you that the install is just as easy as Windows (just maybe not as familiar, but still very easy. hell, the partitioning utility beats the crap out of Win2k's HANDS DOWN), so that's not an issue. And for usability? StarOffice, Mozilla, and Evolution are every bit as usable as Office, IE, and Outlook, IMHO. And since they could save MILLIONS on this project by not using M$ software, they could take a *fraction* of that budget and put it towards removing any "rough edges" they observed in whatever distro they decided on...
The Free desktop that Just Works
Yeah, it's late, so nobody will ever read this -- but why is this article deemed to be 'about microsoft?' Honestly, the news is that they might be giving everyone a computer, not that the computers will be running Windows. It seems to me that we have enough ms/linux flame wars that the editors don't have to go out of their way to make opportunity for another one. Matching this story with the borg symbol was highly inappropriate, and sent the discussion off on a completely different (and useless) track.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
They will wonder why they can't use any of the applications they see at the store and why the need to run a program called "btichX" to get help.
...just tell her it was named after her
Liberty uber alles.
Funny, I'd have thought the goal would be achieved by supplying free methods and techniques for doing all things the proprietary software does. I don't see anyone, even RMS, looking to directly destroy the companies that produce proprietary software, except Microsoft, and they don't count as they are criminals and deserve to be destroyed for other reasons, like fraud, blackmail and extortion. Instead I see the goal being that people should only pay for proprietary software if they WANT to, for instance if it is particularly nicely GUIed or runs 70% faster or has teams of repairman ready to come help you or something. Why should people be compelled to resort to proprietary stuff JUST because it is proprietary stuff? Maybe some people aren't fond of the idea of having a free basic level of competition which a proprietary vendor must exceed if they expect to sell to customers?
"One way this is accomplished is by putting software that would normally be public domain under a license RMS himself created, called the "General Public License," or "GPL." Simply put, this license allows code to be reused-- unless the final product is distributed without its source code, as a proprietary product must be."
Funny how that works- curiously enough, all software would normally be public domain except that some people choose to claim rights to such earthshaking concepts as 'clicking a picture of a button on a screen, once' and refusing to let people use those ideas and that code. In fact, call me paranoid but it might be that some organisation like that will, some day, get crazy and antisocial enough to try and PATENT the idea of clicking a button on a screen once to do a thing, so people can't even use an idea LIKE the one the proprietary guy has claimed rights to. Thank God THAT will never happen! ;P
As to the GPL vs. public domain: what gives you the idea that proprietary concepts and public domain can coexist? Do you see them coexisting in practice? Since proprietary guys can take concepts from the public domain and patent them and bodily remove them from the public domain, isn't it true that RMS, in inventing the GPL, simply implemented a protected public domain, which by design can't be cherrypicked at all unless you agree to work within the public domain that you are cherrypicking?
Wouldn't the counterpart be a desire to be allowed to cherrypick proprietary software, take the ideas and start publically using them without fear of reprisal? Is that not completely antithetical to the whole point of proprietary software? ...then, why do you consider cherrypicking public domain for the benefit of proprietary stuff to be any more sensible? It rather defeats the purpose, wouldn't you say? Particularly with what you may call retroactive patenting.
I look forward to reading what you have to say when you grow up and have read other books besides Atlas Shrugged :)
"How can people make a living over there?"
Here's some news for you: many Canadians are taxed over 50% as well, and we make our living just fine, thanks...
Prisons don't boost macro economies, they boost local economies. They require new construction, they create jobs, and they make politicians look tough on crime.
But your thoughtful answers have made me regret using the term libertarian. Unfortunately, most of the libertarians (and even some of the liberals!) I know keep pushing for candidates who do all these awful things, sacrificing social liberty for economic liberty.
We disagree quite a bit, but I just don't think anyone on slashdot has ever disagreed with me quite so *respectfully*. You are now in my friend file, Ominous Armed Cow.
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
But what about buying software? When people want to read Word documents, they have to use one of a few substandard options, andwhen they want to write, it's a whole new nightmare.
What if they want games? THey can't buy them off-the-shelf. Same with software. Will hardware work? Can they get a new gamepad?
There are just too many issues that need to be dealt with in the usability area before Linux can really make it as a desktop OS.
If you want UNIX on the desktop, get OS X. Nicer interface, less confusion, easy for newbies, powerful for power users, commercial software support, open source software support, awesome hardware, and if you REALLY want Linux, you can install it.
Seems like the ideal solution to me.
--Dan
Sure, anyone can -use- UNIX, but what about anything above using? Installing software? Removing it? upgrading? You can't go to the store and just buy any old software. There's no hardware that has a 'Linux certified!' logo on the side. It's not that easy yet. Maybe it will be eventually (I honestly don't care), but right now, it's not.
--Dan
How the hell did you learn about computers unless you had access to them?
Great point, and if I had any mod points....
Yes it's true, 95% of all /. readers were given (or bought) a computer at some time; probably when they were young, and started by playing around with MS-DOS, then graduating to either windows or linux. Most even became great system administrators or programmers.
BUT; these people make up maybe 1% (if that) of the people that use computers; the rest of the population that uses computers see them as a tool to get a job done.
Be it typing a word doc, using a spreadsheet or just playing games, these people don't want to have to know how to use a computer; just how to get their job done.
So whilst it is true that 1% of those that get these free computers will go on to actually learn about them and become great systems admins or coders, the argument is what OS to put on the computers for the MAJORITY.
I think you will agree that the majorty does not want to have to worry about the intracies(sp?) of linux.
Since only about 10% of the cost of owning a PC is tied up with the Software, why are you all so worried about saving them the 10% AND DOUBLING the other 90%? (service, support, etc).
10%? there's an interesting number.
for windows its 10%just for the OS. thenanother 10%from office alone.
If you put all equivlent of apps on window that you get with Linux distro's, you would double the price of the PC.presuming the average PC you would by in this scenerio would be about 800.00 us.
I don't know about the people you know, which if your post s indication, would be about 0. I do know that I handed my mother a suse 7.1 distro, ask her to install it, bring up an office and let me know if she needs any help.
She needed NO help. The only thing that she hestitated with was setting up the dial-up for the ISP. I suggested she call her ISP tech support, and when they could help her, I would. The told her exactly what to do.
If you think there is any increase at all for supporting a linux box over an MS box, you are the one that needs to get real.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Did someone say this is eloquent? It's called 'sophistry' - look it up.
Oh, we're doing ad hominem attacks? Cool! I can play at that game...
Actually, I'll pass, except to point out that you should probably look up both words, so you'll understand that my post was, in fact, *eloquent* sophistry. :-)
Where is Joe Schmoe going to figure out how to use his USB camera on Linux?
This is currently possible but a bit fiddly, probably beyond most users. Wait a few months, though, this stuff changes so *fast*.
How's he going to play the games he buys
Who cares? I really doubt that putting a gaming machine in every home is a serious goal of the Belgian government.
The very idea of distributing Linux in this situation is idiotic at a level that almost reaches 'instinctual knowledge'. I don't even need to put much thought into it.
It's quite clear that you didn't put much thought into it. Think about the reasons why a government might feel like this is an important project. What kinds of apps matter? Now look at how those goals can be met most cost-effectively. Based on what I see the needs to be, a pre-installed, pre-configured Linux box can have all of the necessary software without paying a penny in licensing costs. It'll be dead easy to use, point and drool-city for those users who don't want to dig deeper. For those who want to dig, they can go as dep as they like (which, BTW, addresses what I see as one of the biggest issues between the technology haves and have nots -- the opportunity for bright, interested kids to have a machine they can break, fix, tweak and ultimately *understand*).
I'm a PC guy (Windows and Unix) but I have to admit the iMac is a good choice here.
Ever tried to plug that USB camera into a Mac? Doh! The state of that world is worse than Linux. The manufacturers provide support for Windows, the hacker community provides (hard to use and configure) support for Linux, but Mac users are often on their own. And what about availability of software? Oh, sure there is software for the Mac, but have you ever looked at the prices? 50% more than the same thing on Windows, typically. Remember that these machines are destined for people that can't afford to buy computes themselves. Finally, Macs cost a lot more than PCs do, meaning the government can help less people for a given amount of money.
Try looking past that instinctive knowledge and thinking with your *head* about the goals and the costs implied by various options.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
That's strange. When I first plugged my USB camera into my Mac running OS X, an image capture application (included with the OS) popped up and offered to import my photos for me. And did so just fine. I didn't even have to install any software, as I did under OS 9, and on my PC.
Now, iPhoto comes up.
When I first plugged my USB camera into my Mac running OS X, an image capture application (included with the OS) popped up and offered to import my photos for me. And did so just fine.
I stand corrected. I made the same error that many of the other posters did: speaking from outdated information.
Hopefully this works as well with all USB digital cameras.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
These are not bad examples, I recently bought an Alcatel Speedtouch USB ADSL modem. Under w2k, you plug in into usb port (as explained in the document sheet, with a single sentence), you put the cd in the tray (again, a simple sentence tells you to do that), press "next" until you can't. That is it, really. There is not even a reboot.
If you have a mandrake 8.1, installing this modem just requires a rpm install and PPPoE configuration. While considerably harder, not impossible for the inexperienced.
BUT if you have any other distro (including mdk 8.0, all suses, all rhs) installing this modem requires downloading, patching and compiling the kernel. Also PPPo(E/ATM) is probably not compiled into kernel as default, you have to configure kernel for it too. Ofcourse you have to configure these options after compiling the kernel, which requires RTFM.
As for rpms, I recently installed ogle dvd player. My dvd was correctly configured (symlinks and hdparm) so it was just a software install. I had to download 6 source rpms, and installed a total of binary 14 rpms (2 happly provided by mdk 8.1) in correct order... Just to get a single program work. In the end, ogle gui refused to work, I have no idea why. As command line part works, it doesn't bug me much, but the point is I had to search and install more than 10 rpms just to get a dvd player work. I can't imagine MY sister doing that, perhaps your sister is more intelligent.
Well, that leaves the TV card. It might be a bad example, perhaps it is easy to configure it under linux or configuring it under windows is just as hard. Since my parents could install it under windows without any assistance, and I could not get it work under linux with assistance of harddrake and HOWTOs, I assumed it was harder to do so under linux. Perhaps I underestimate my parents.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!