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A Linux User At MacWorld
usermilk writes "Linux Journal just posted a pretty cool article, A Penguin Angle on the Ox: Day One at Macworld. It features a Linux user's perspective on MacWorld, OS X, Darwin, and how all these things play together. Most interestingly, he comments on the large number of open-source-Unix bigwigs who are now on Apple's payroll. There's also a pretty concise description of the difference between Apple building off of BSD compared to Microsoft trying to also reap the benefits of open source." Doc Searls' perspective makes a great companion to the report from the floor (and part II) that chrisd posted.
I think, for apple to really get in the Linux/Free Software's good books, they need to give something back. The license on Darwin is too restrictive to count, and they did rip off FreeBSD 3.2 (I realise, that is not how the BSD developers see it, but this is reality :-). Something like funding, or code, would go a long way in giving them a better reputation.
I didn't know about Hexley, the Darwin mascot, but what the Hell is this grey picture in the article?
Trolling using another account since 2005.
The Mac always looked a bit like toys for me, but they are most of the time pretty. (Yes, that is a selling point for me!) They also have a stimga of being computers for people that don't want to know about computers. However, prettyness and curiosity about OSX got me buying one. Now, I am not desoriented at all using OSX. It really rocks! Command line open and it's all there: it's often more useful than wading through config screens which you are unfamiliar with. I know, stating something like that is very un-Mac, but the point is: you come from a Linux world (or *BSD) and your Mac will feel at home. If you come from a Windows background, I'm pretty sure you will feel at home too (and enjoy a prettier desktop *grin*),
One people get a bit more open-minded on computers and operating systems, and are willing to give a Mac a a try....then I'm sure the Mac will have a very bright future.
(A bit offtopic: even from my hardcore PC users co-workers, I only had positive reactions on the design of the new iMac)
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
At the end of the day, there are two operating systems in the world. Those that are UNIX(like) and those that are just Windows. To me that speaks of opportunities especially for you Linux guys who have excellent knowledge of your systems. Brush up a bit on Darwin and become a Mac OS (X) systems expert. The end users themselves can do the GUI stuff but they may, at some point, need someone to have a look at the plumbing. Hey, if ya make a quick buck then all the better.
I'd tried to install linux on a new macintosh but because the hardware is closed and each model only comes with one type of graphics card and hard drive (and all except the TiBook have the same motherboard throughout the model line) I had trouble trying to have a hard time finding the right drivers. Could somebody install some weird hardware on my machine so I could futz with it some a lot more before it works right. I miss PCs.
All this is talk is moot until Apple can compete on the commodity desktop. That is where the main stream is. Until Apple can truly go head to head with Bill Gates, we are talking about a niche product. If you want to play in the big time, you have to deal with commodity hardware. That is reality. That is the world of commerce and business. Hey, even The Gladiator, as great as he was, had to come to Rome.
...and contribute something yourself.
Well, we recently had a Mac user in our area have his HD crash and burn. While I was swapping out the HD he was complaining about how often it crashed, etc, etc. So on a whim I installed OS 10.1 for him. All I can say is wow - what an amazing OS. Not from a "look Ma, a bash prompt" and not necessarily for me - I like my Gnome desktop. But from an average user's perspective, OS X is sweet! The interface is very nice - and it is so stable. The user made that very comment "Why hasn't it crashed on me?" He used to have crashes all the time. Now he has the other Mac users asking if they can upgrade anytime soon.
No its not perfect. but Apple really managed to finally create a non-technical user desktop and OS built around a stable fast core. Good for them, I hope it really works out for them. I'll stick with Linux case its fun, but my wife, anotehr Mac user at work complains about usign Windows to do stuff at home - maybe she'll get an iMac for her birthday with OS X - nah - the new ones are too ugly :) Don't want people to think my LCD screen took a dump on my desk :)
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Still, despite these historical ironies, it's good to see Apple have an OS that is somewhat related to, and compatible with, UNIX. Apple desparately needed this, and going with a UNIX-like personality makes so much more sense than if they had cooked up another proprietary system for the core OS APIs.
I keep hearing people say that OS X is the best...period...i've heard that it combines the ease of previous mac OSes and the power and stability of UNIX...I got to try it out on an iMac at my school, and I liked the fact that I still use the good ol' command line and it was indeed easy to use; HOWEVER, I don't think that ANY of this matters...the fact is that PCs have gained a VERY strong foothold in the industry and unless Apple comes out with some sort of revolutionary (and cheap) hardware, then it's not going to be raising its 4% user base...Apple is really only going to expand if it can start making software for PCs...while that may seem like blasphemy to many of you mac users out there, that's the only way I can see Apple having a competing edge in the long run...i'd be MUCH more open to running OS X if it was on a PC...
I've sold my rev A imac, ordered the new one, and will continue to run my previous Linux box as an fileserver, mp3 server and first level firewall.
Now to spend less time with hardware configurations and kernel rebuilds everytime I plug something in, and work on a standard hardware platform that lots of other developers have. More time to code, less time doing the dishes.
Change is good. Embrace it.
Apple's been bragging for some months now about their being the first company to put "the power and stability" of Unix in the hands of the average user and it seems that's what they did. What I'm wondering now is if this kind of stability put in the homes of millions of people will not change everybody's standard of stability. Five years ago, the standards of stability were Win95 and Mac OS 8 (I'm trying to speak for the general public there,OK? No flame, please). Neither was very stable (although I still remember 95 as being a true nightmare, whereas OS 8 was acceptable, as long as you didn't try anything fancy, such as developing on it), but since nobody had a better example, people were happy with it. Now we've got millions of mac users let loose among their friends and saying their computer (almost) never has to reboot! This could change the acceptable standards of stability, not only for Operating Systems, but also for the whole software industry.
Most people thought computers had to crash, because that's what they always did. If some start to be STABLE, where is the world going?
I don't have much to add.
A Linux User At MacWorld, eh? What is that, like the IT version of the Pepsi Challenge?
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With one move apple is into the server business as well as desktop. And linux being so popular, unix users/administrators are easier to find these days. ..
It was just a matter of timing
I think it would be a good time to give a PC version of OS X, taking after all these years Bill Gates' advice. But i remember microsoft "helped" apple some years back , no ?
Washington bullets will simply be known as the "Bulle
When MacOS X runs on more than just PPC machines, I will give it a shot. I am not about to go and buy hardware so that I can run an OS, that I have to pay more money for, when I can buy cheap hardware, and use a free OS.
I have used OSX.1 and yeah its O.K. , that all I thought about it, Reminded me of Solaris in performance, I.E. pretty damm slow on hardware Yellow dog freaking screams on. Their hardware is getting better granted, but dumbing down *nix for the average Apple user, who still cant understand why you would ever need more than one button on a mouse ?
......well wouldnt feel any different. Why do people think Apple is less greedy or sniveling than MS, they had it perfected before MS was a player, just happened MS won by default because the PC won the last 30 year batle by a margin of 10:1
Im not some *nix elitist, hey let everyone use it, what I wonder is the impacts OSX will have on other mainstream *nix variants, I mean is everybody going to whore their codebase up to handle all the fun, pretty eye candy and usability, hiding stuf that doent need hidden , and so on ?
Apple, from the contact Ive had is a group thats right up their with MS in terms of "OURS ! OURS ! OURS !" They contibute little so far back to the OpenSource domain, their APSL Sucks(IMHO), and is too restrictive.
Im all for choice. Hey it it ran on X86 (Not JUST DARWIN !) I
OpenSource and Apple make dangerous bedfellows.
IBM FREELY gives back to the OpenSource community , this is better than it sounds, If they didnt want to they wouldnt have too they have enough money and power to stall the courts and RMS pretty much forever. Apple does too , keep an eye out....
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
Remember there are a vast number of folks out there who need ease of use to use a computer. With the advantages of a *nix at the lower level and the ease of use of an mac, this could erode the windows base over time. Personally, I will recommend this to all the non-technical folks that ask me about computers since it means less assistance will be required and over time I can teach them the *nix that underlies the GUI. Plus now I have an excuse to get an iBook.
They're both open sauce, so one can use code from the other one. So it doesn't really matter which they are paid to develop, because it's all open sauce.
i'm not trying linux until they make a port for my nintendo64.
... research, and STUDY how people use their computers. Yes, the majority of the world does, indeed, use a GUI, not a command line. Sorry, but that's a fact. When you realize how people use their computers, and all the research Apple/Xerox pumped into the GUI (the Xerox would be a akin to a prototype -- Apple's designs improving on some areas Xerox got it wrong) then perhaps you'd realize that there are some benefits to a one button mouse.
But, it's an old debate, and you are seemingly stuck on one side of the wall. Gah! It's people who can't open their ideas to the benefits of an alternate design (hey, if it didn't WORK, would Apple sell it? No! So, it must be working.) and perhaps see the benefit of it.
so this is different from using putty on win95 in which way?
update comments set karma=-1, reason='offtopic' where sid=26315
I'm not trying Solaris until they port it to my Casio G-Shock!
That was classic intercourse!
Oh man...I could totally make a bong out of those new iMacs...hey! Where did you leave the chips?
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
this attracts a lot of Linux weenies, not to mention UNIX heavies
Linux developers are weanies and UNIX developers are heavies? When are we going to get some respect?!! Not to mention that UNIX would be all but dead if not revived by the Linux community. Sheesh!
I'm not trying Windows until they port it to my abacus.
All three markets can coexist, and should coexist. It's perfectly normal for the computer world to divide into different virtual geographies with different personalities, just like the real world. Apple's new vision is to build a line of products that appeal to people that hang out in places like South Beach or Greenwich Village. Linux appeals to people attracted to places like San Jose or Austin. Windows appeals to people that for some unknown reason spend their time in Detroit.
The biggest reason why Apple is so cool is because they know their niche and they cater to it. Opening the flood gates and bringing the bazillion Windows users and developers into the Apple world is the worst thing that could happen to Apple, because without the exclusivity that they have right now, they would be just another OS. The last thing that I want to see on my beautiful OSX system is a bunch of crappy shareware built by 14-year-old teenagers in Hungary with no design sense whatsoever. I don't want the bouncers letting people in jeans and sneakers into the nightclubs that I visit, and I don't want ports of a bunch of ugly Windows applications running on my Aqua system. If Apple's market share rises too high, then the whole mystique will be broken when the exclusive feel of the OS is lost.
The applications available for OSX are mostly designed and built by people that are very into the Apple mystique, and a lot of people like it that way. Applications for other OS's are generally not designed at all, they are just built. I keep an ugly Gateway PC in a side room for running junk like that when I need to, but it's an iMac running OSX that gets to sit in my living room. If I need real power, then I can pop up an X window on my iMac from the Linux server that lives in a closet where nobody sees it.
-Keslin, the naked nerd girl
Time and time again, /.ers complain that Apple takes but does not give back to Open source. If you believe that the only way to contribute to the Open Source Movement is by releasing all your intellectual property under the GPL license then by your estimations then it has taken and not given back. However, you are then being just as blindly bigotted and dogmatic as those who would only want software released under strict licenses at considerable expense and lack of freedom to the enduser (i.e. MS).
Apple has contribute to Open Source in several small, but significant ways. For a start, there are currently six open source projects at Apple that it is providing funding for under the APSL:
1) Darwin (the foundation of Mac OS X)
2) Quicktime streaming server.
3) Common Data Security Architecture (CDSA).
4) Open play - a cross platform network abstraction layer.
5) Headerdoc.
6) Documentation.
Apple gave back all this stuff away despite the fact that the BSD license doesn't force them too (in the case of Darwin).
Furthemore, Apple provides employment for Open Source programers, such as Jordan Hubbard (FreeBSD) and Guy 'Bud' Tribble (ex-Eazel) - although admittedly since Eazel went tits up because it couldn't make a profit from a GPL product, I don't think Dr. Tribble will be doing as much work on GPL software for a while.
I'm not trying PalmOS until they port it to my Dragon 32
having a small market share is no rational for going nowhere. what most pc users accomplish is word processing of some form, and communications/organization. what most automobile users accomplish is getting somewhere. some people like to to get there better and faster, and spend time thinking about process and not just goals. personally, i would like to see apple get to 10% of devices with some sort of tablet/pad, since desktops do not reflect the future of computing. one scenario is using an ms tablet networked with an ms desktop/home server, and the other is using a generic (osx/linux) tablet to telnet/x into a home server or work server. dependent devices versus independent devices. are you opposed to running a shell on a terminal versus your pc also?
Sarcasm guys,
"I had a hard time _not_ finding the right drivers".
Hehe.
The copper bosses killed you, Joe. 'I never died', said he.
If OS X ran on X86 hardware, it would be great since fast processors are plentiful
I would focus less on the CPU and more on the RAM. OS X is a big fat piggie for memory. 128-256MB will run at the low end of acceptable. It is definitely faster when you have 512MB or more.
Luckily, PC100 SDRAM is cheap.
Can you live with only one button, sure, but its easier with 3 , I honestly belive most mac users adhere to the use of one button mice for two reasons, Mac users are adverse to change, 2 they feel as most mac people they are unique a one button mouse is a seperation from the norm somehow make them special, individuals rather than part of some drummed up MS conspiracy crap.
My own observations as a fairly biased mac user: It is largely a matter of what you are used to. I find two button mice to be no great advantage when I use them. I suppose for a one handed person (or perhaps someone who's other hand is 'busy') a two-button mouse is a great increase in functionality and ease. But for two handed computing it is a step down in functionality (if not in ease) since now a mouse click is only modified by one other button rather than by the four modifier buttons a mac user is accustomed to (Command, option, control and shift). To gain the equivalent functionality that a mac user is accustomed to having at their left hand while their right hand manages the mouse you would need a 5-button mouse which seems like it would be unweildy and awkward (how would you move the thing with all five fingers up on the surface of it pushing buttons?).
A scroll wheel on the other hand is a huge advantage and something I wish Apple would either adopt or create a reasonable (or better) subsitute for. Of course their is no reason I couldn't get a mouse with more buttons and a scroll wheel.
Currently, under Mac OSX the output is limited to 1024x768 (even though the video card supports much more.) Yuck.
If you can only get 1024x768 under Linux, that would indicate that it's actually a hardware limitation.
If you can get more, however, that might indicate that there is hope for a BSD/Linux driver to be used as the basis for a new OSX driver that would unlock the capability of the hardware that Apple took away.
Here is a quick competitive analysis of Mac versus roughly equivalent Sony VAIO desktops as featured in Fry's. I used Sony because they throw in almost decent video editing software(1) and similar additional goodies to make their products roughly comparable to the iMac in raw feature checklist terms.
:-( ), and want a LCD monitor, the new iMac is comparable in price to an entry level Sony with a Celeron:
If you can take a 1024x768 screen (I can't
Sony: $ 799 + $ 500 Sony brand LCD = $ 1,299(2)
iMac: $ 1,299 with included LCD = $ 1,299
The iMac has the advantage of the super-cool form factor and desk arm to keep your desk clear for all the papers that inevitably collect on it. That's a convincing argument for the iMac right there.
(Of course you could get a cheap off-brand LCD with the Sony, but we're trying to compare (ahem) Apples to Apples, and the Sony monitor is what you need to get the same quality level as the Apple).
I would count the iMac 700mhz as very close in capability to the Pentium 4/1.5ghz, and if we do that comparison, Apple actually winds up looking cheap, even if we substitute the high-end iMac with the SuperDrive
Sony 1.5ghz $1,500 + Sony LCD = $ 2,000(*)
Apple 800mhz $ 1,800 = $ 1,800
and the Apple includes a DVD writer, which Sony users are bound to lust after. Even if you give the Sony an off-brand LCD that just drops them to the same price, and without the SuperDrive.
As you can see, Apple competitiveness is not half bad, if you compare it to a company with similar pretentions. In fact, some might consider it downright aggressive.
You can make similar comparisons with the iBook and Titanium PowerBook G4. I will admit, though, that at the moment the desktop line is long overdue for replacement. http://www.aapltalk.com/ did some very informative comparisons of all the lines.
Hope that was of interest.
D
(1) Microsoft's video editing software as bundled with XP is, well, quite honestly useless and therefore doesn't count as a competitor to iMovie. I know, because I tried it in the store. Horrible.
(2) Minus $ 50 rebate is $ 1,250, but I find myself losing rebate coupons or forgetting to use them at quite a remarkable rate. Which, of course, is what Sony is counting on.
The difference between Microsoft making everything including the kitchen sink part of their operating system and Apple's behavior is that Apple is enclosing applications on their machines, not making them part of the system. Microsoft made IE an un-removable part of their OS... Apple lets you throw out iTunes, iMovie, iDVD, and iPhoto, and you can replace them with whatever you like. With my powerbook, iMovie didn't even come on the same CD as the OS any more. I installed it because I thought I might play with it sometime, but I haven't, so I'll probably just delete it.
There actually *are* commercial apps that do the things these apps do, in some cases better, and unlike in cases of Microsoft melding their apps into their system, on the Mac you can throw out the apple software (quickly, easily, and painlessly) and use fully functional alternatives. On Windows, you try making Netscape your browser for everything. IE will still come up regularly like it or not. On the Mac, IE is also the default browser but it took me about a minute to switch completely to Netscape once I'd configured my network. Most of that minute was remembering which control panel to make the change in. I threw IE out.
Apple can be accused of bundling software. (Whether they meet the legal definition of having done so or not, I have no idea, but I think we can agree that they give enough of the appearance of having done so that they could be accused of it.) However, they haven't displayed the heinous behavior of forcing you to *use* it.
It also doesn't hurt that Apple's software is usually easy to use and actually works.
ok guys, I know everybody loves saying that windows crashes all the time. I have been running my machines (btween 1-4) constantly on for a couple years now. there have been crashes. a couple. I have had lots of apps crash but windows started handling that alot better around 98SE. you have to work to crash 2k and XP is shaping up to be similar. basically my reboots come from patches. (which, admittedlly, are needed way to often and shouldn't require a reboot)
I don't really coddle the machines. I download shit from all over the net and half the time I never get around to installing anti-virus and I still have just this side of zero crashes. granted, my linux boxen crash less (but it does happen) but all in all I generally expect a couple months of uptime before something my machine comes crashing down.
"Linux developers are weanies and UNIX developers are heavies?"
Linux is such a young operating system, its users are lean and callow teens and 20-somethings. We old-timers who discoverd Unix before Linux came along all went to pot years ago.
I've owned my G4 for about 2 years now. By day, I'm a windows programming lacky. But, thanks to OS X, by night I'm turning slowly into a Unix ninja. I love having a shell whenever I need it. I'm learning C on my box. I've used Apple's free project builder for a few chapters of a Java tutorial. I'm running mySQL. I'm running Apache, and serving from my Mac box 24/7. I'm also running PHP for the odd server side script... and I hope this only goes on and on. I love that Apple has really opened up the Unix world to me in a painless way. A few years back, I honestly tried to build a Linux box from some old 486 componentry. No dice. Couldn't get the drivers to work with my hodge-podge of hardware. The beauty of the Apple OS X experience is not having to worry about configuration, etc., and getting a secure, locked-down install of Unix that the newbie need not worry about, but is free to exploit as his knowledge grows. Thanks to Steve, I may just have a C++ job at EA one day...
So i could pull a "Unix" application off the web, do a "make" on it and it will run flawlessly on OS X?
Yes.
The reason your PC is cheap is because it is hacked together, just like your free OS. People who want quality buy Macs and use the MacOS.
MacOS X is the only OS that has come out of Apple with any real quality. And if you have forgotten, it is based on FreeBSD 3.2 - Gee.. isn't that free software?!
See "Subject."
If OS X likes Linux servers so much, why can't I get the damn thing to mount a NFS volume?
(One possible answer is that I'm an idiot.)
I believe Apple has already given back, HFS and Appletalk. Mounting Mac volumes and using legacy Apple network protocols may now have "better" support.
no one "owes" any of these communities anything. if the bsd license says i can put their code in my code, then so be it. if you don't like it change the license.
Never forget that Microsoft is apple's biggest investor.
/private/etc crud knows what I mean)
I've been using OS X since around july or august. I do get a little concerned apple is taking away from linux, and, since apple is sleeping with microsoft, well.. you can see where I'm going. It's also why OS X will never be on an intel machine. (IMO, that is actually a good thing for linux)
Apple is one way microsoft makes $$$ on people who know enough not to buy into microsoft.
OS X is cool, but no substitute for UNIX. (anyone messing with it's
OS X is proof that linux could exist on the desktop. (the intel desktop) mozilla and openoffice would have to gain mass.
I find the Linux window managers a lot more user friendly than aqua, it's the applications MS-Office and MS-IE that hold up the show.
Linux these days really isn't that tough to install or use. I actually think Linux could do a better job of it than OS X.
Apple and OSX users owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to both the Linux and the Windows communities. It is still important to remember that there is a big difference between appreciating those communities for what they offer and trying to woo users from those communities to OSX.
I am extremely happy with the current situation, where Apple only occupies 5% of the market. That 5% is made up of people that appreciate Apple's highly-managed approach to providing a consistent, compelling, and comfortable user experience.
I sit in front of my Aqua interface and I'm just awed at how beautiful it looks. It even looks beautiful when I have five different terminal windows up, open to different Linux machines. Front-ends should be beautiful, back-ends should be powerful. Apple understands this.
-Keslin, the naked nerd girl
If one peruses the Apple Website, one of the key promotional items is the applications that run "native" on OS X - I assume this means they have been ported to run on a Unix platform. Some of the applications listed are those that I have seen many times in articles writen about what is needed for Linux to succeed on the desktop - Apps like Adobe Illustrator, Microsoft Office, etc. If these Apps now run "native" on Mac OS X, would it not be relatively trivial to port them to Linux? Perhaps they would run on Linux or BSD already?
OuiPapa, you either haven't actually used OS X (to which we must conclude that this is merely a troll) or you did use it, but didn't even bother looking in the Control Panels to turn the trackpad off, which would have solved your trackpad problem. Taking 2 minutes to install QuickKeys or any one of a multitude of Applescripts available would have solved your other problems. Heck, you could have even written a keymapping script that would run in the background with no noticeable delay. Or a quick search on Google would have given you tons of customizeable foreign-language maps for the Mac that you could modify; I've seen them work fine on iBooks.
So next time you decide to write a troll, try to make it a little more credible. Or, if you actually did by that iBook, why didn't you try it out beforehand? Maybe a larger PowerBook would have been better for you.