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More on Dell Dropping Linux Support
coolgeek writes: "In this previous Slashdot story, we discussed Dell's claims of slow sales as their reason for dropping Linux support. (article on c|net News.com). Today, this article on Reuters news reports: 'Citing internal Microsoft memos, the nine states also said that in 2000 and 2001 Microsoft pressured Dell Computer Corp. into dropping plans to offer the open-source Linux operating system on some machines it sells.'" Update by HNQ: eWeek got more details about the memos. Update: 03/19 12:26 GMT by M : I think Hetz accidentally changed this story's setting when he added the update above. Fixed.
...a couple of years ago -- the machine arrived with Windows installed anyway -- even though I was not charged for it. Too bad, I wanted to see how Linux ships. Then I went on and installed FreeBSD, of course...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I wonder if Dell will have anything to say. The article just has comments from the states and Microsoft.
are Microsoft's air supply. They'll battle red in tooth and claw for preloads. But if they lose them, well... Windows is dead, we all know this.
Oh come on.
would this really be a surprise to ANYONE?
if you was in charge of a Linux software co., wouldn't you wake up each morning wishing you could get the big manufacturers to pre-install Linux instead of Windows?
Doh!
Waiting for an amusing sig.
Dell is dropping most of its support staff PERIOD. I was just laid off as a Dell Outsourcer, I had been working there 2 years putting myself through college. At least 10 sites of hundreds of techs just got laid off. As outsource agents, there was no big stink on the board and among stockholders because we were contracted, they probably don't even know about it.
If you buy from those thieves (oh, the corporate memos I could recite), expect a nice long wait for tech support now..
I ordered probably around 8 rackmountable dell machines with redhat preinstalled in 2001. If M$ was pressuring them to avoid using linux, then they obviously didnt do a good job.
.
In unrelated news, Dell CEO Michael Dell was given a speeding ticket in a new Ferrari 360. When asked where he got the car, Dell responded "it fell off the truck". When asked for his liscence, he "accidentally" handed over his freshly-inked honorary MCSE. He was promptly arrested for assulting an officer of the law.
Do their figures include machines bought without operating systems or just the ones where they shipped RedHat with the machines?
We've bought 10 Dell servers to run SuSE and I bet we're not alone.
Normally there is no point paying people like Dell to install Linux for you anyway because they don't set it up how you want it.
If you'll end up trashing it, setting up a decent partitioning scheme and reinstalling it then you might as well save a few quid on having them muck it up first.
Then instead of quietly removing Linux-support, all online-newspapers are running a story about Dell dicontinuing Linux on the desktop.
Am I the only one who thinks this is fishy?
This is pretty clear evidence of anti-competitive behavior. My guess is that that 34 states still going after Microsoft are going to have a field day with this. They do have documents to prove the allegation.
Note from the Reuters article: "Webb [Microsoft attorney] said the states' proposals
Golly Mr. Webb, an antitrust remedy is supposed to help the competitors who were harmed, that's the whole point !
I really hate seeing criminals whining about their punishment, yank their bleeding charter. oh wait, they're chartered in Delaware - it'll never happen.
Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
I have bought several Dell machines through work. You know: "workstations" for engineering and scientific applications. If that isn't where you would run Linux, I don't know where you would. Dell didn't sell Linux pre-installed on those machines. Our sales rep promised to credit us for Windows and ship the machines without an OS, but they ended up shipping with Windows anyway and charging us for it as well. Going through the hassle of sending the stuff back and refusing payment would have cost more than to just pay the Microsoft tax.
If Dell has sold Linux on their PCs at all, it must have been on some low-end or mid-range machines that engineers probably wouldn't want anyway.
As far as I can tell, Dell's Linux efforts were a publicity stunt of no real value. Perhaps Microsoft put them up to it so that they could point to some supposed "competition".
I'm running an old poweredge 6300 with RH 7.2.
Under NT it is a pig to get going with juggling raid driver disks - even though this PEdge has just a standard Perc-2Si raid controller...
With RH7.2 - no problems, 30 mins after starting I had a fully working linux box, 60 mins later a fully working PDC, DNS etc - normally with NT its the best part of a day getting the OS and all patches etc installed and working together (and then put exchange on and watch the whole thing vanish into a big pile of junk).
Wonder whether Dell might reconsider and agree to provide linux on their servers given MS is such a pig to work with.
--- Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
"It will have a devastating impact on Microsoft. It will have a devastating impact on the PC ecosystem and particularly consumers," Webb said.
An 'ecosystem' implies biodiversity. The world operating system market is verging on monoculture. If anybody is the *weed* in this technological ecosystem, it would definately be Microsoft Windows. I say - bring on the devastation!
I realize Dell has pretty huge exposure in the PC industry, so whatever they do people pay most attention to, but the fact is other companies have started offering Linux pre-installed on their computers. I'll cite Monarch Computer as an example, from which you can get RedHat or Mandrake preinstalled as well as customize your entire order. There are several other companies like this...so stop complaining about Dell dropping Linux and start buying from other places that do offer Linux. If these companies start making enough profit off selling Linux computers, Dell and others will take notice and perhaps start offering it again.
Eh? I would disagree with that or rather say that is too simplistic a view to take, especially without giving any argument as to why it should be so. I'll take the simplistic examples that a vast proportion of "Web-Servers" are running Apache on anything other than Windows (they use Solaris, Linux...) but the vast majority of clients are on Windows.
What is the real issue between the client/server relationship? I would say the answer is protocols. As long as you have open protocols like HTTP, SOAP, java-based etc. then the opersating system of client and server can be independent. Now, one could argue if a monopolised company took over the desktop market, they could be forced to use certain proprietary protocols that only work on proprietary servers. But Microsoft aren't gonna gamble that much with their monopoly. Notice their protocol of choice for .NET is SOAP which is an open protocol
So open protocols means that the desktop OS won't take over the server OS
Windows is dead.
Theres no way more than 60% will choose windows.
Most people dont like windows but werent given a choice, given a choice, alot of people wont choose windows, and windows will fail as more and more people begin to switch to better OS's
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Does anybody remember DEC's
Digital Network Appliance Reference Design aka "shark"?
Microsoft pressured DEC to not sell it - otherwise they would drop support for NT/alpha (which they did anyway...). See here for the details.
for an enterprising small company.
Build a low end box and preinstall Linux on it so that it fully supports all the hardware. Aim at the $400.00 market, and a complete computer. This is very important, you need to demonstrate that you are cheaper than the competition. Charge for shipping but not handling.
An Athlon 850 with 256MB of RAM, DVD Drive, 32MB nVidia video w tv out, 16 bit sound card and a 40 GB HD would be good. A network card, modem card and TV card would be nice too.
Put open office on it so that it was 99% office compatible. Hell, that's all the early IMB clones were and they did alright. Build every package from source fully optimized for the platform. Build the kernel to fully support all hardware that comes with the box.
Make it so that all anyone has to do is turn it on, fill in a few blanks, answer a few questions and they and their whole family each has a new account.
Offer game packs of all the old Loki games for $50. (Or a transgaming game pack, anything to hook the kids.)
Finally, have an update service to keep their software upto date and secure. You could also sell them TV and radio listings monthly to use to record their favorite shows. This box could be connected to a monitor and to the TV at the same time and show a DVD while someone did their homework on the monitor.
The great thing is that you will only need to spend about $20,000 setting up the first box, then you can build as many boxes as you want for just the cost of the hardware and the manpower to assemble and test each one. No more license cost. That alone will save the user $75 per box and gain the manufacturer $25 per box extra income... The $100 that would have gone to Microsoft.
If it ran Lindows, even better. Anything to ease people off their old machines, the better. Oh, and you need a utility to connect the new machine and their old machine with a serial cable, run some software on the old machine and transfer over all their old program files to be ran under Wine or Lindows.
The "remedy" phase of an anti-trust case is like the "penalty" phase of other criminal trials: It's when the punishment is meted out.
So why aren't the plaintiffs seeking punishment? They should be there to punish Microsoft. Their goal is to solve the problem and prevent future violations of the law. If they aren't truly seeking punishment, then it strikes me the states might be hedging their bets: Waiting to see if the judge will enforce a harsh remedy (and face the wrath of the Bush administration and the Ashcroft goon squad.) If the judge won't do that, they'll be able to easily sell out for a cheap "PR Win" against MS where they settle and the majority of people who don't know enough about computers to care will say "Good, they took care of that Microsoft thing. Now I can go back to the net without worrying my porn will be cut off."
It's also laughable to me that MS' lawyers can argue, with a straight face, that evidence of on-going criminal conduct is somehow "irrelevant" to the penalty phase of their trial. I do my best to avoid situational logic, so the best way to decide if this isn't a completely bullshit argument is to replace Microsoft with Lenny the Mobster.
If Lenny the Mobster is charged with operating a sports book, and while out on bail on these charges (which he has since been convicted of,) he set up a NEW sports book, that would certainly seem like relevant evidence to me in considering whether the defendant had any intention of obeying the law in the future, and whether a stronger sentence might be needed to reform him.
Microsoft should not get special treatment. Microsoft has broken the law. Multiple times. They have been convicted multiple times, despite doing everything they could to worm out of responsibility including:
1) Lying (IE couldn't possibbly be unbundled)
2) Buying off the Bush administration
3) Buying off much of Congress
If it was Lenny the Mobster charged with murder, racketeering, or anything else, they could (and have, in the past) use everything including the kitchen sink against him. Why does Microsoft deserve preferential treatment?
MS is like a child, defiant to the last that it deserves no punishment. That's basically the argument they're presenting in court: They don't want to make the changes proposed by the dissenting states because those changes would end most of their monopolies in 6-18 months. MS seems to be arguing that there should be a lesser punishment simply because they say so.
When this all works itself out, and MS is over (or sold, divested, whatever) there will be a collective hangover. Things will be weird for a few months, but ultimately more healthy.
Think of it like ending a relationship with a crazy girl: Yeah, you lose great sex for a little while (millions of video games) but you also get all the heartache and bullshit of dating a crazy girl (autoexecution of VBScripts in emails, gaping web-server security flaws)...
Yeah, it hurts at first, but ultimately you're a better, stronger person with (hopefully) an open, easy to use OS with lots of games, groovy programming environments, and other fun multimedia content the likes of which hasn't even been invented yet.
In other words, the rich pageant of computing that's been prommised for the last decade, but never delivered by Microsoft.
Who did what now?
On a related, dual-boot note: many laptop vendors install Windows XP with the NTFS filesystem taking all of the hard-drive. These laptops only have a restore-CD to put XP back and usually have only 1 restore option: XP for the entire drive. I'm sure Microsoft 'encourages' vendors to not distribute real XP install CD's with computers. This is a very nasty way of discouraging people from trying an alternative.
A friend of mine recently bougth a Compaq Presario 1714AE and wanted to be able to dual boot and get to know linux. I did the install for her, starting with erasing the entire disk figuring I could restore XP on a smaller partition. I turned out the restore CD had only 1.5 MB of data on it. All the real restore data was on the second partition of the same hard-disk! (which I'd erased)
So there was only on thing to do: intall only linux. Compaq does send a real restore-CD if you call their expensive support-line. The CD took four weeks to arrive and when it did, using it erased the entire harddisk again. There was no way to install XP from these CD's alongside linux. Absolutely no way. I spent an entire day trying many tricks. Even Partition Magic 7 could not shrinkt the NTFS partition on this machine.
The good thing is that my friend is very happy with SuSE, which she preferred over XP. And she is no computer expert at all. She only has a problem with running CD-ROMs. DVD's work very well (after tweaking).
She has now called Compaq again and demanded the real XP install CD's which she paid for. Compaq is clearly trying to delay things, unfortunately.
DNA is the ultimate spaghetti code.
Dell are still offering RH linux on workstations to UK buyers - maybe desktops too, I don't look that low down the £££ end ;)
However, we do always of course rebuild it ourselves with a sensible partitioning scheme and our deparment's specced build.
I think we have a discount with them if we buy our machines with linux instead of windows - £25 or something. Oh, and another £5 for going for a logitech 3-button mouse instead of the microsoft wheely one.
One of the main benefits of having linux offered is that you can be pretty certain that all the hardware works under the latest RH release kernel. Which is reassuring, especially with some of Dell's wierd hardware.
Why can't we all just get along?
Dell probably had very poor sales for Linux in the desktop segment. The people who buy these machines aren't the sort of people who would buy Linux - not because Linux isn't "ready for the desktop", but because they wouldn't know if it was.
Until you see Red Hat adverts featuring people flying through the air over green fields extolling the virtues of Linux for home users, you're not going to see much in the way of uptake.
The few people who do buy desktop boxen for running Linux are probably the kind of tech savvy people who already have Red Hat Linux CDs in the desk drawer and probably wouldn't want the default Dell install anyway.
Now the point is here that history has made the x86 platform as home computer because back in the days when a an XT was 5000$, the only people who could afford it were the bussiness men who wanted to do a bit of Lotus 123 at home. Of course these bought IBM machines that came with MS-Dos (I'm not kidding you...my dad was one of those loonies..tough it was a PS/2 in later times) All other computer *enthousiasts* were on Commodore 64, Sinclairs, BBC's....heck I'm probably even mixing decades here.
Later on when computers got cheaper (think 486, but were still expensive enough), people started to buy those for home use. You know the primary excuse for a home PC (bought by adults) was back then to do a bit word processing and spreadsheeting. Guess, what that is the stuff they (eventually) did at work and so the choice was clear: buy a PC. Yes, and the computer enthousiasts still used their Amiga's.
Now one could say that times have changed: now people admit they buy the computer for entertainment (surfing/games). I'm not sure if people still select at home what they use at work or if the tides have turned and home usage infuences work usage now. Now imagine businesses would massively switch to Linux (because MS gets even worse with licencing than it now is, and decision makers have the *balls* to say no...which I personally highly doubt) Woudn't this refect automagically into a higher demand for Linux home machines? I think so! People buy what they are used to, not what is good... Joe users dreads to learn about PC's.
I agree that W2k is a fine OS (tough I still prefer NT4), but I woudn't put it on a server....not anymore, I got the feeling of *BSD and for me a good Unix server is a *BSD server. For home usage W2K it's okay: you turn on the puter a couple of hours a day and it's stable enough for that: uptimes simply are not important for home usage. Win 9x kernels however were never suitable for anything... I don't know XP enough (only used one PC with drivers problems at a friends place), but it seemed very very bloated to me. (even more than W2K!)
Personally I have changed, I was an MS-Dos man, hated Win 1.0 to Win 3.xx and loved OS/2 (which died an absurd death). I had to get over to Win 95 and hated NT4 until I learned the strengths of it. Lately I have learned Linux, but I saw the light withing OSX. For me OSX is the machine for home use, if you're not into gaming of course...the only reason I now have to use a Windows incarnation are games and fortunately I'm not a big gamer.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
We only have Dell machines here at work and of course I've installed Linux on mine. I use it as a desktop workstation and as a database/http server. It has performed very good. No downtime since last summer (except when we had to cut the power globally).
As a matter of fact I think Dell is a really good choice for running Linux (if you must go for a brand computer). I have also tried installing Linux on some Compaq machines. Many many hardware related problems. Stay away from those Compaq machines! That's a warning.
Ciryon
Also, this part of the article misses the point and will confuse those "non-tech savvy" folks it hoped to enlighten:
Truth is Windows costs hundreds of dollars whether it's pre-bundled with the hardware or not, and it always has. The difference is many users don't notice that cost when they pay as a portion of their pc's purchase price rather than actually handing the cashier a product that rings up $299.99.
Who did what now?
I think we should have at least the choice of buying computer hardware WITHOUT any OS. M$ will complain about piracy, but now everybody know (I hope) there are other choices which don't imply in copying commercial SW (like FreeBSD and GNU/Linux).
As much as I hate to agree with you I think you are right. DELL is the number one PC supplier and they need volume. If LINUX only sells a small amount then the infrastructure that DELL needs may be too big. Also DELL may have seen that the folks who actually buy and use LINUX do not need support. Either way you look at it, DELL does not make extra money.
I would get concerned if DELL started building notebooks that could not run LINUX...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
www.lycoris.com
lycoris offer desktop LX preinstalled on machines for $449.95 and laptops for $799.99.
The pcs are HP and laptops IBM and they come with full tech support and OS support and warranty from manuf. the PC's are new and the laptops refurbished. The prices include shipping.
PC
Hewlett Packard PC
Intel Celeron 700 Mhz Processor
128MB RAM
10GB Hard Drive
8MB Integrated AGP Video
48x CD-ROM Drive
56k Modem or
10/100 Ethernet Card (NIC)
Keyboard
Mouse
Speakers
Desktop/LX Amethyst
1 Year Warranty from HP
Monitor Sold Separately
Laptop
IBM ThinkPad 600E
366Mhz Pentium II Processor
AGP Graphics
3.5 inch Disk Drive
10 GB Hard Drive
DVD ROM Drive
128/256 Std/Max RAM
Dual boot Desktop/LX Amethyst & Windows® 98
13.3 inch TFT Active Matrix Screen
56k voice/fax modem
5 lbs. w/ battery
Refurbished with 3 Months Limited Warranty from IBM
And im sure there are more out there.
PS on the Dell side i buy nothing but dell and i have never ever seen the linux links except on server products, the fact is that MS may have stopped them from doing or they may have not but from what i have seen Dell didnt exactly try hard in the first place and i suspect it was only ever an option to make them seem like they cared about choice. Dell have always been microsofts number one fan.
Oh and this may be offtopic but on lindows im sorry but i personally believe its vapour ware and will believe it when i see it - a company charging $99 for Beta testers to get it is not a good sign and i have yet to come across anyone who has ever used it. Until i see it i wont believe it -for now its a pretty web site and 2 screenshots that could easily be forged. Micheal Robinson marketed MP3's before and now hes marketing linux and so far all i have seen is a lawsuit he knew would be the result of the naming and one i personally believe he went looking for.
But more power to companies who ship linux preinstalled, i run lycoris and for a desktop OS its very very good.
I refuse to argue with Anonymous Cowards - if you want a discussion get an account....
Lap dogs of intel
Piss boy for microsoft.
Dell is the market leader.
Whatever.
Michael Dell must feel 2 inches tall. No wonder he has stopped making speeches. 9 in 2000, 3 in 2001, the last was a year ago. I'd hide my head in shame too.
How can they be a market leader when they put themselves in the pockets of their suppliers. No wonder their margins ar so slim. They're cutting their own options. I smell a minority shareholder lawsuit.
As mach pain as HP will be in after the Compaq fiasco, At least a leader may emerge with some spine. If Carly stays on, you can bet she will gun for dell. If not, look at Gateway.
For that matter look at me and you. Anyone can build a PC, and honest smart companies can move up fast.
If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
The Linux boxes that Dell Europe sells cost about $70 more than the
same box with Microsoft Windows 2000. As that's about the price of
the Red Hat Linux Dell installs, this suggests that you're paying for
the Windows license anyway, and then extra for Red Hat.
When I asked Dell Europe about this, they said my observation was
incorrect, they claimed the difficult production process of installing
Linux warrants this extra cost. Installing Linux in the US is much
easier than it is in Europe, and the market in the US is bigger, hence
the extra cost here. Also, while it's possible to buy a system with
Linux as it's advertised on the website, they can't give any guarantee
or indication how long the delivery process will take, or how easy it
will be because of drivers etc. That's no big surprise, in Europe all
systems Dell sells (advertises?) have nVidea graphics cards...
Anyway, I got the advise to buy a Windows 2000 system, because that's
cheaper and quicker.
I was just pricing servers for my uncle's business that he's starting up, I happen to see that the servers(now we're talking Itainium (sp?) or large 4+ way Xeon servers) are selling with Linux, mainly RedHat 7.2 on the OS list. Yes, they still have the Win2k, and WinNT OSs listed, but they also have RedHat, or the No OS option. So on the server side, yes, they still have some linux in there. On the workstation/home machines, I think you can forget about it.
(rhetoric pause)
Why do they have to ** FORCE ** you to buy Windows?
I can also buy a computer from Dell without monitor why shouldn't I be able to buy one without OS?
Just look at the Dell-advertisments. I've NEVER seen a non-Windows machine there. (also none for servers) Usually you would expect that a new product line would get some advertisment to get it going, wouldn't you?
Excuse me?
Care to show us which protocols are "MS" or "Windows" protocols?
Here - let me help you start:
NetBEUI (NetBIOS Extended User Interface) - Developed by IBM for OS/2, but used by MS and adopted for use in MS LanMan; implementation of OSI LLC2 protocols
NetBIOS - IBM
IPX/SPX/ODI - Novell
TCP/IP - OSI Standard, no one owns it, originally developed by DARPA for ARPANet and not widely used until 1983 when 4.2 BSD came to life and introduced "sockets".
SMB? Nope. SMB is part of the Open Group (nee X/Open) Interoperability Standards since 1992.
Secondly, the topic was DESKTOPS, not servers!
Nice try, but no prize!
ScottKin - he who cut his teeth on 3.2 BSD, csh and Vax/VMS at UC Berkeley/LBL in 1979!
I don't give a rat's behind about "karma" here or anywhere else. Don't like what I have to say here? Deal with it!
I assume that posting and follow-up access to other newsgroups must be only for for "internal" Microsoft users.
This is fine if he is just using it for providing support for Microsoft users in the local nz.comp newsgroup - but using it to post Anti-Linux FUD?
Does it qualify as astroturfing?
They offered me a $200 discount and said I could return the Microsoft CDs if I wanted, but would get the discount even if I changed my mind and kept them. They offered to include the discs but not install the Microsoft software. But they would not sell me an Inspiron 8000 laptop without Linux.
I eventually gave up and said that I wasn't ordering if I couldn't have Linux or no OS at all. Neither the salesman nor his immediate supervisor could complete the sale, and I spent my $3500 elsewhere.
lycoris offer desktop LX preinstalled on machines for $449.95 and laptops for $799.99.
I went and looked at that; note that the laptop is actually a dual-boot machine, with some form of Linux and Windows 98. If what you're really looking for is the ability to buy a moderately priced laptop without paying a tax to Microsoft for an OS you won't use, this isn't it.
-Rob
Given that most people's problems (pure, if defensible, conjecture here) are software not hardware, then allowing somebody to install their own OS of choice is a real headache for support. Force them to use pre-installed Windows, everyone has a common platform which makes support easier(=faster(=cheaper))
Example: My friend had a Gateway PC, and was reinstalling Windows (they'd partitioned the HD in such a stupid way she ran out of space on the system partition, whilst having gigs left on a data partition - WAKE UP GATEWAY! Installs often copy files to the system folder!) She had asked me to help, and all went smoothly until installing the graphics drivers - I just couldn't get the res that we knew we could, and the screen stayed the default shade of blue (anyone else noticed that the exact shade of blue changes when you install graphics drivers for the first time?) Eventually I gave up, she called tech support. She explained the problem, then they asked for the serial number of her PC. Slight pause, then they gave the solution 'Set it to 800*600@16bpp, reboot, then you'll be able to select the res you want'
Imagine how much longer that would have taken, and how many more (more skilled) staff they'd have needed to support any OS.
The shoddy drivers issue is another issue...
The top two players in the server market sell Unix based solutions. Dell is playing M$'s game, hoping to ride the Microsoft rollercoaster to the top. It *is* a smart move, since the alternative involves doing some real effort to provide some real service.
I don't know how is Dell in the US. Here (Portugal), I asked for a quote on their site (when purchasing the datacenter hardware). They took the better part of two weeks to answer, sending me a proposal in MS Word format and written in Spanish. No excuse for the delay, and no excuse for not using my native language or English. By that time, I had narrowed negotiations to IBM and Sun, and was closing contract with IBM. I dropped Dell, didn't answer them, and overall came out with a very bad impression of their service.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
That is where "you would run Linux". That is also where a few hundred scientists for whom I work run Linux ... on Dells. For a few years now, my employer (a hard-science research institution with about 1000 employees) has been recommending Dell workstations for scientists who want to run Linux. We continue to do so, and Dell continues to ship Red Hat 7.2 on Precision Workstation models and PowerEdge servers -- up to and including the highest-end systems such as the PowerEdge 8450.
The whole "Dell quits shipping Linux" deal has applied to "some machines [Dell] sells," to quote the Reuters article. Specifically, Dell has dropped Linux on "desktop" systems such as the OptiPlex and Dimension models. It has not dropped Linux support on workstations or servers, which you can still quite easily purchase with Red Hat preinstalled -- or with no operating system at all, or even with Novell (ick) -- through Dell's online store. It's true that these workstations cost more than Dell's desktops; this is because they're faster and don't use cheap WinHardware (which doesn't work well in Linux anyway).
(Looking over the number of Dell trademarks in this post, I feel compelled to make it clear that I don't get any money from recommending Dells. I just get fewer support hassles when my clients buy the same hardware rather than going to Joe's Discount PC Clones and Bait Shop.)
I'm not sure you can really seperate the two. If the judge wishes to "correct the monopoly," it has to be possibble to get Linux on a workstation from Dell and Gateway, and other mainstream manufacturers. The reason Microsoft put prsesure on Dell (to stay vaguely ontopic here) is that (whether accurate or not) Dell is seen by consumer-level buyers as a quality PC.
Having Linux available on Dell systems could have legitimized (in the consumer-mind) something that Microsoft wished to keep on the fringe, Linux on the desktop.
Anything that "corrects the monopoly" (or at least levels the OS playing field) will destroy Microsoft since, as numerous other posters have pointed out, nobody with large amounts of money to spend on OS and hardware really wants to buy Microsoft, they just sort of have to. In fact, few people besides Microsoft want them around at all.
How else can you correct the monopoly? Keep in mind that MS has a track record of "settling" antitrust matters, only to violate said settlement when it is convenient to their business plan to do so.
Fuck it, I'm moving to the Netherlands.
Who did what now?
I wouldn't buy Dell on general principles anyway, having had a bad technical support experience with them in the early '90's. Shipped a client in West Memphis, Arkansas a Dell, having been told that Dell had next day technical support and having bought the machine explicitly for that feature. When the hard drive went plotz within a week, we called Dell and they told us that they could ship the client the drive the next day, but because the client was in West Memphis, AK, the support guy wouldn't be there for 2 days. Had our client been located in Memphis, TN (Right across the fucking river) he could have been there the same day. Doesn't sound like a big deal? It was to our client; we lost a contract over that one, and neither I nor that company ever did business with Dell again.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Dude! I'm not gettin' a Dell!
- Windows 2000
- Noell Netware
- Red Hat Linux 6.2
So yeah, they did make an effort in the server space, at least.Don't laugh - they have some excellent deals:
How about a 1GHz Microsoft-free PC for $399!
Or 1.4GHz of Athlon blasting goodness for $499!
Wallyworld computers dot com
Not so much because they ship crappy code, they can do that all decade long for all I care.
What I care about is innovation, competition and the rights of business to conduct business the way they see fit.
Unfortuantly, when you get a monopoly they conduct business in ways to make sure no-one else thrives, hence the "PC ecosystem" becomes dominated by one predator who won't let any other threat to its dominance survive. Indeed a company within the "PC Ecosystem" that starts to thrive becomes a viable meal for the predatory MSFT (the next version of Windows is then likely to feature the same or similer product bundled within its confines, nbecause its proven itself to be popular). As for bundling, well this goes without saying; the PC ecosystem employed by MSFT is in actuality an "MS ecosystem".
Too much damage has already been done by them, advertantly and maybe inadvertantly. Really hope the 9 states get a lot of what they want, but the release of the Windows source might be a little too much. Perhaps having every MSFT business dealing with the OEMs public and scrutinized might help, and indeed having many formats opened up with the stipulation that changes need to be documented well in advance.
We'll see what happens. But for these anti-competitive and innovation stifling measures its the only reason I dislike them.
While I didn't write my government official, I did write an email to Dell directly. Enough emails, and it might actually make a difference. You can contact Dell here: http://support.dell.com/us/en/dellcare/segtopic_cc are_nav_notlisted_ccare.asp
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:) VERY nice case!
And my email:
I've been a loyal Dell customer since I bought my first Dell PC, used, from a friend. The machine was already several years old, but it kept on kicking... and after nearly 10 years, now runs SuSE Linux as a great sever for me.
I was so happy to see Dell selling PCs with Linux some time ago, but have disturbed by rumors floating around that Dell didn't like selling Linux boxes. "There isn't enough demand." "They don't make enough money." etc. Despite the lack of immediate demand, I believe that as large PC companies start to push the option more agressively, Linux will indeed make it onto more and more desktops. I hear stories every day about small companies, schools, and government agencies opting not to upgrade Windows PCs to the next iteration of Microsoft's Operating System. Instead, they use older machines and Linux to run their day to day operations. Imagine if they had the choice to purchase new machines, with 1-3 year service and support, WITHOUT Windows installed. $350 / machine. All there needs to be is a PC maker willing to stand up to Microsoft's influence and work to make the industry more competitive and provide better choices for consumers.
Thank you for your time, and I hope that you consider the social ramifications of the decisions that Dell makes as well as the economic and financial considerations.
--Paul
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/03/19/051
P.S. I really love my new Dimension 4300 1.6 GHz machine.
That's why build to order software became so popular in 2000. But either way, with all the Microsoft .dlls required to run Linux nowadays how can dropping the non Microsoft software still be considered a separate act?
The Republicans/Democrats finally got their money. Once this latest bout of bureacracy works its way through the system, Microsoft will go free.
Anti-trust litigation is just a tool for politicians to mess with big businesses that haven't paid their dues. The ones that pay go free. The ones that don't suffer the consequences.
If the American people really didn't want Windows, they would stop buying it. My sister uses a Mac. I use Linux. My other sister and my dad use Windows. What's the problem?
If Dell can be pressured by Microsoft to drop Linux support, that's Dell's problem. They could never pull that against IBM, for example.
Why do they have to ** FORCE ** you to buy Windows?
I'm not advocating forcing anybody not to buy Windows, I just want choice. I also don't say that there are no advantages for some people when Windows is preinstalled. I just want to know why you have to be FORCED.
Sorry, but that machine has very little marketing potential.
A $449 machine, without a monitor, and with the specs you mentioned just doesnt cut it, when you can buy something like this, at a very similar price.
I had some fun with my Dell Rep when we needed to order ~10 computers. I insisted on p3 1Ghz (I don't care what anyone says, thats good enough for business use) - but the guy kept trying to get me to up to P4 1.7's, giving me the whole deal about how all my apps would run at blazing speed. I told him I knew exactly what I needed, and I wasn't in the mood, I just wanted to order my stuff. He kept telling me that the P4's where the best computer I can get for my money.
... and asked why they didn't offer AMD Athlons. So, he recited his intel brochure, then gives me the speil about what a great relationship Dell has with Intel, and how Intel outperforms AMD by large margins, and "no serious computer user would ever pick AMD."
... but he almost flatly refused! Stating "18 years of engineering has proven that Dell's built-in ethernet ports are the most reliable in the industry..."
I mentioned to him that I had no desire to get locked in to either RDRAM or SDRAM-P4s (ugh)
I asked for seperate ethernet cards (if you have experience with Dells you'll know why I did this)
Then, I insited on Windows/Office 2k for all my boxen (Its our corporate standard), I really gave it to him - now I was pissed at this guy. I didn't want to get locked into licensing issues, didn't want activation (knowing damn well that the corporate edition is free from that stuff), had no new features. He kept pushing though, and in the end I cancelled the order out of disgust.
(The next week someone else from our department called and ordered them, $1700+ for each P4 - talk about a rip off)
would be the creation of four different operating systems running 10 different middleware products. Thousands of applications would need retesting, as they would need to be certified on "4,096 different versions of Microsoft products," Webb said.
Translation: Giving up our monopoly status would cost us too much money in testing alone, so just let us continue on, unchecked, ok?
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
is not so much the strong arm tactics that MS was using to thwart the growth of a competing operating system, but that they actually had memos and such concrete evidence of the fact.
I would have expected such thrusts to be communicated verbally to Dell so as to avoid this kind of embarrassment. Any written records could refer to "our joint efforts to establish a mutually successful partnership team" and other such drivel that would be understood to include the verbal tenets of the agreement.
I mean, any drug dealer knows these things.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Dell will also ship you the boxes with Solaris or BSD or whatever you'd like if you provide them with an image, and are a big enough customer.
They actually run rather well with Solaris x86, or at least as well as anything can run Solaris x86...
Assuming they _don't_ get their ass handed to them, they will of course escalate as they always have done and always will do, and although it is hard to imagine how they even could, permafrost is the metaphor that would work.
The argument would/will be that there is NO life other than Microsoft products in the computer industry- they'll cancel all Mac products and armtwist the PC vendors even more, publically announcing that supporting Microsoft products (via subscription of course) is the only way to avoid 'computing permafrost'. The idea will be that nothing short of Microsoft can make computing ideas take hold in the very demanding and difficult market out there, which has 'permafrost', so anything smaller than Microsoft inevitably dies. Therefore, support microsoft otherwise there would BE no software. Of any sort. 'Permafrost'. The environment would be incapable of supporting life.
They've certainly worked hard enough to set up a situation where that looks like the case, through acquisitions, threats and protection-racket like stuff. They are very _industrious_ criminals. Threatening people is hard work! They'd continue to do so under 'permafrost' conditions, because of course the reality is that 'life' pops up all over and has to be stamped out to maintain the illusion. The _spin_ on this state of affairs is 'permafrost', or 'there wouldn't be any competing software anyway'.
If they actually use this, I want them to pay me :P
On Pricewatch, vendors sell OEM (no box but with media, not just a paper licence, and not an upgrade), sell XP Pro(!) for ~$140 ($126+$12 shipping) and Win98 or WinME for ~$85 ($75+$10).
That said, I agree that showing the real cost of Windows to users -- $100+ (typical OEM price added to a computer) -- is important. In many ways, it is a hidden tax and a substantial chunk of the cost of a new computer.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
I warned him against XP (spyware) -- he is just a normal user and not a programmer. So he asked them if they would please install Windows 2000 or 98. They refused. He said.. "but what about these models in your brochure that say the COME WITH 2000?" -- the Dell person on the other end of the line hemmed and hawed and then finally said "I don't know anything about that".
He placed his order with IBM instead - who was pleased as punch to install Windows 2000 for him.
Again, sounds to me like Dell is in the belly of the beast with MS - and that MS has learned nothing from the court case and is continuing on in their merry old way to force everyone to use XP and Passport and their other evil spyware.
With my broadband provider, I have had similar conversations. Basicvally, the external modem could not get a signal over the line, the LEDs made this very clear that the problem was between the modem and their end. When I call and they ask what OS, I said Linux, and they said, "we don't support that, could you reboot into another system?" And I said the problem is not within the system, it is the connection, the LEDs indicate power,b ut no signal, etc. etc. And they said, could you just please reboot into Windows? And so I said ok, waited a few seconds and did nothing, then said, I'm in windows. Then that same person asked me to describe the LEDs, when I had described them five seconds ago without being asked, before asking me to do anything with the computer. Then says "oh, the problem appears to be on our end somewhere, we'll look into it, here is your ticket number, etc....
Ever since then, whenever I call I have actually been known to say "what operating system would you *like* me to be running, and we'll just claim that....". It is very annoying when techs won't even listen to what you have to say..
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
This is insightful, if true, but it's something that needs to be compared to OTHER tech supports from comperable vendors.
Gateway? Forget it, unless you are a "corporate" customer you ride a merry go round of automated answering machines. Only the magic sales button pulls up a human being, and you had better tell them you are a corporate customer or you are back at the auto BS. This applies to the numbers they supplied in a case for a broken monitor the place I was working for three years ago. I imagine it's worse in a recession.
Anyone got any other good stories like that?
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Huh? What crappy browser do you use?
While I can see how this might affect sales to the average Joe (assuming he's buying Linux or even knows what it is in the first place), how does this affect the knowledgeable geek? How many geeks actually buy premade machines to begin with?
I prefer to buy all of my parts individually and put the machine together myself - as simple as this I don't see why you wouldn't want to, if only to control the quality of the workmanship (talking about home machines here, not corporate lot purchases). Just how many people who *really* know what they're doing buy a machine whole, unless it's something specific like a laptop?
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Sell it at a flea market with a copy of the OEM sticker. You're not using it, and anyone who's buying it at a flea market probably doesn't much care that it's not-quite-legal (at least in Microsoft's eyes), and will probably know how to get around WPA to boot...
/Brian
Linux is a pain in the ass to preinstall. Someone else was complaining how they do a kitchen-sink install for RedHat... well, yes, it's excessive. The problem is that there is no simple way to do a "bam, it's installed" preload of RedHat without throwing everything in. There's so much material in the average commercial Linux distro that it's tough to say what should be in and what should be out.
It's not bloat, exactly; it's more like being musclebound...
/brian
And where are the laws preventing MS from extending this with proprietary engineering?
The internet protocols are irrelevant; nobody buys a server 'because it has TCP/IP'. Sure it has TCP/IP, but what does it serve over it?
And... NetBEUI and IPX/SPX/ODI are dead. SMB _is_ NetBIOS. TCP/IP _isnt_ OSI (much to the annoyance of the OSI designers, I believe). Get your protocols in order.
SMB is a perfect example, Samba has been broken on pretty much every Windows release I've seen this far. Funny little errors like W2K suddenly getting 15k/sec transferrates against the samba servers. The Win '98 refusal to connect via cleartext password anymore. Etc.
Kerberos. Exchange. As long as MS has a monopoly on the desktop they will keep throwing roadblocks into the way of other servers, eventually escalating to patenting their extensions and guaranteeing no reverse engineering, until they can kill off any other product in the server space too. And that is only the technical part of it. Ever been threatened with a desktop license price hitch if you dont use Exchange? Such fun little surprises lie in store for you if you believe MS wont be able to use the desktop to decide what servers you are going to run.
The "support problem" is really easy to get around.
Restructure the support options for alternate OSes such that it's a money making proposition. With Linux, there will be a high likelihood that support is not an issue for them.
People who want a "unix box with support" buy Suns, not Dells.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Why do they **FORCE** you to use Intel CPU's. Why do they **FORCE** (you like that word don't you?) you to use their exclusive brand of memory (regardless of who manufactures it for Dell). What if you want an Asus KT266A motherboard? Nope, they **FORCE** you to use THEIR motherboard. Dell spends a lot of resources on quality assurance and support, and less choice means better support and cheaper products. If you don't like that, I can send you to one of many great computer manufactures.
I'm not advocating forcing anybody not to buy Windows, I just want choice. I also don't say that there are no advantages for some people when Windows is preinstalled. I just want to know why you have to be FORCED.
You are not FORCED to buy from Dell.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
i saw that myself but as it comes with WIne perhaps theres a reason, maybe some IBM software or something?
or perhaps as they are refurbished they already have the windows 98 license with them as it was sold originally and as such theyve done it dual boot, im not sure but i suspect this might be the case
as a lycoris user i run it on both dual boot and single OS machines and the Dual Boots a good way to go for maximum flevibility, i can run photoshop when needed and still work in linux
I refuse to argue with Anonymous Cowards - if you want a discussion get an account....
True its not the worlds fastest however the poster was talking about companies selling preinstalled linux distros and thus it fits the bill, the power and value was never one of the original issues but i would point out that for a home user the lycoris machine is very good.
BTW the gateway machines do not include Shipping and come ONLY with windows XP (No linux available)thus defeating the point of the original post which was a company selling bundled linux with full support, sure you could install it yourself but the point of the whole exercise is to offer a pre loaded machine with OS support by the company, something you dont get in that case.
I could build a better machine for less or the same price myself and install linux as can anyone but in this case the company who made the distro are selling the machines pre configured and supported and that after all was the point of the original post.
A side note - Gateway have shut down in Most or Europe and Asia with massive staff cuts and write downs which might not make it the most intelligent buy as the chances of their continued financial viability past 2002 are very slim.
I refuse to argue with Anonymous Cowards - if you want a discussion get an account....
Just did! Working from the small business page (since I already knew it was possible from the higher education page -- working for scientists is like that) it was just a matter of selecting "Workstations", then the Precision 340, then a nice blue link just under the 340's picture that read "Click here for the Dell Precision 340 with Linux."
It sounds to me like your Dell "sales rep" is having some problems, if s/he can't even do what an untrained monkey such as myself can do using the online store. A paranoid person might suggest that this individual is receiving kickbacks from Microsoft which Dell's online store division isn't receiving. A more reasonable person might suggest that your sales rep is not terribly good at his or her job.
No, but I guess I did bite on the troll carrot. Thats why I took off my +1 Bonus. :)
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
TCP/IP isnt based on the OSI model, it was developed separately, apart from the OSI model, and the mapping between the OSI model and TCP/IP doesnt match up. IPX and the novell protocols are OSI compliant, IIRC, tho.
Novell lans are mostly run over TCP/IP today. Strategically they're dead.
As far as samba goes, when new releases of Windows are the ones that 'break', the fault lies squarely on Microsoft. It's kinda hard to verify that something interoperates with something unreleased.
If a legal license to use technology isnt obtainable there are no alternatives to reverse engineering.
Providing legacy access for Microsoft isnt a problem. They're only interested in strategic developments; witness the problem with connectivity tools for Novell when it was a threat to their server buisness. A few years of breakage, until they've mostly taken over.
There is no paranoia. You should study Microsoft a bit more. Emperor Gates and sidekick Ballmer take the prize in paranoia and siege mentality.