Heat-Conducting Carbon Foam

anvilmark writes "ABCNews has an article about a new carbon based thermal conducting foam. Very pricey to produce but has 4-5 times the efficiency of copper at 1/5th the weight of aluminum. ORNL technical documentation available here and here. Sounds like the perfect heat sink shim to me."

Comments

hrm...

[HobbitGod42]

Lets use this to make new heatsinks (suggested in article) I wanna oc my 386 to a 1ghz computer... will this help :)

shim..sink - what's the difference?

[56ker]

surely you mean sink not shim!?

Re:shim..sink - what's the difference?

[56ker]

Actually now I re-read it : " Sounds like the perfect heat sink shim to me. " I'm even more puzzled by what they meant. Can anybody enlighten me as to what a shim is then?

Re:shim..sink - what's the difference?

[Anonymous Coward]

A shim is a small plate composed of thermally conductive material that you put between an FCPGA CPU and the heat sink. It has holes for the chip and the other parts of the CPU that rise above the rest.

The idea is to increase the amount contact surface area between the CPU and the heatsink.

Re:shim..sink - what's the difference?

[Squeezer]

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=shim

Re:shim..sink - what's the difference?

[Osty]

A shim is a small plate composed of thermally conductive material that you put between an FCPGA CPU and the heat sink. It has holes for the chip and the other parts of the CPU that rise above the rest.

Nope. A shim is generally not thermally conductive (and better damn well not be electrically conductive ...), since it doesn't matter whether it is or not.

The idea is to increase the amount contact surface area between the CPU and the heatsink.

Again, wrong. The idea is not to increase the amount of contact surface between the CPU and the heatsink, as this would be impossible to do, unless you made the CPU itself larger -- heat only radiates off of a CPU from the little rectangular core in the middle; the ceramic surrounding the contact point has little to no thermal conductivity. Instead, the idea is to give the heatsink a larger area to which to apply pressure. This means it's going to be more difficult (though not impossible) to chip the CPU core if you're using a shim than if you're not. Shims only became popular with the Athlon Thunderbird chips that were trivially easy to break with a sloppy heatsink install. Since those shims were made out of copper (bad! that's electrically conductive, which means you could very easily short out your CPU), many of the more clueless overclockers instantly thought "copper == cool", and thus assumed that shims were another way to lower their CPU temps by a couple more degrees. They were wrong.

Re:shim..sink - what's the difference?

[gl4ss]

yet, some heat gets transferred to the plate the die sits on(it gets hot, try it sometime), sure, it'll go a round trip but that could still be good for 1C. but protecting core is worth few e's with shelby stripes.

Re:shim..sink - what's the difference?

[Osty]

True enough, but if you're at the point where 1C makes a difference, then you ought not be overclocking, or should get a better HSF. A shim is physical protection, not thermal protection.

Re:shim..sink - what's the difference?

[Osty]

Right, so this is flamebait because I corrected his incorrect explanations. Damn moderators.

The Salvation of AMD

[Captain Smooth]

This is definitely plus for all the AMD buffs out there. Also good for the company. Provided this becomes a little cheaper, this and the Hammer could really give a boost to AMD's market share.

Re:The Salvation of AMD

[Anonymous Coward]

AMD is for guys who never get laid.

Re:The Salvation of AMD

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll bet Captain Smooth gets laid all the time.

With a name like Captain Smooth... ooo... I'm sure it's all in the name nowadays.

MIT developed army suit

[SteakandcheeseUm]

the end of the article states

. Both Klett and Conway have started doing research for the government to adapt the foam for use in "personal cooling devices" for military personnel.

I wonder if they will try to intigrate this into the Nanotech suit that is being developed by MIT? or is this before that

Re:MIT developed army suit

[Anonymous Coward]

and at the same time, to support this theory, the military comes out that they are developing E-fabrics , that conduct heat and electricity much like this material does.

Re:MIT developed army suit

[Xacid]

Wouldn't you have to worry about...perhaps a bullet shot through your suit, then even perhaps rain pouring into that hole in your suit, which just happens to conduct electricty? Doesn't seem too bright to me from a military point of view. I'd just do it for the hell of it though, just to see if it could be done. Imagine a guy coated in this foam and then on top of that, wrapped in this electricity conducting fabric with tons of volts pouring through him. Now that would be quite the weapon: a walking, talking, tesla coil.

Cookware!

[tchdab1]

I want a set of pots and pans in this stuff!

Re:Cookware!

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if they'll be able to use this stuff in contraceptive foam too?

Re:Cookware!

[kesuki]

New From NERF the frisby you can cook in!
Really though, this foam is expensive. Even using the foam as a conductive pad between the heatsink and CPU would be extremely expensive. Although it would help prevent cracking the chips.
Besides, there is a lot more than just conductivity to think about in designing pots and pans. If the pan conducts the heat too effeciently the food will burn where the pan and heat source come in contact, and not cook entirely the rest of the way through. This is why some people still prefer cast iron to aluminum any day. Aluminum pans almost always burn the food unless they're constantly stired.

Jumpsuit

[kaimiike1970]

I need this where I work, everyone else turns the heat up so high I feel like I am melting. If a had a 'cool' carbon jumpsuit I would be so comfortable.

Re:Jumpsuit

[danielrose]

Why didn't you google for one before posting?

Re:Jumpsuit

[Anonymous Coward]

If the suit conducts the heat efficiently, won't you be hotter?

That means

[geekoid]

they could make the fan out of this stuff, and it would be both a heat sink and fan.

Re:That means

[Anonymous Coward]

Shit -- let's just start making processors out of it! I'm game! Call me! We'll get together and draw up a schematic! Man!

Great heat pipe material

[vought]

You could make a nicely-shaped heat pipe with this stuff, tranferring heat from say, a processor to the outside of the case easily. I'm sure hardware and environmental engineers will have a ball with this stuff if it can be produced relatively inexpensively.

Re:Great heat pipe material

[whovian]

Was thinking the same thing here. Maybe these would be better solar panels than the current inefficient electrovoltaic ones. Either would still be relatively pricey to manufacture I suppose.

Re:Great heat pipe material

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious guys! Way to go!

Re:Great heat pipe material

[jaoswald]

Not so great. Heat pipes work BETTER than copper of similar volume, by a substantial factor. That's why they are used instead of copper for the kinds of applications you are talking about.

Weird but true.

More info here and here.

Research and development

[reflexreaction]

Klett admits that it is highly unlikely the foam will break out of the lab and into widely available commercial applications anytime soon.
Stories like this have always annoyed me. You always hear about the possible development of an item that is four or five (or however many years) away from being put into commercial application but after that you never hear about it. Or if it is used commerically you never hear about where it has been put into use. I work in the scientific field and I almost never hear about an exciting development after it's initial announcement.
The one exception to this is pixie dust that has allowed for the phenomeonal growth of hard drives. Oh well.

Re:Research and development

[Xamdam_us]

All to true about this kind of thing. I'm not sure how many of you remember that show Beyond 2000 but they did a story about a guy in Japan I think who invented a paint that would heat up when you applied current to it. He put some on a styrofoam tray and used it to cook an egg.

Re:Research and development

[Turing Machine]

That's why it's called "research". The vast majority of research projects never pan out, but you can't stop doing 'em. Otherwise progress would come to a halt.

Re:Research and development

[yintercept]

My guess is that the researcher will realize that he put the wrong end of the thermometer in the experiement and that the foam was actually insulating. He will then quietly fade into the background hoping no-one noticed the gafaw.

Re:Research and development

[darkonc]

In many cases, the great scientific breakthrough will point people into a general direction that produces something better than the original breakthrough...

(think of basic research as a bunch of blind men trying to hit a bullseye... The breakthrough is hitting the board. Once people know where the board is, someone else is likely to actually hit the bullseye -- so you hear about the person who first hits the board, and the person who hits the bullseye, but it's rare that the connection between the two events make it through the "15 seconds of fame" filter of media editing.

Re:Research and development

[Anonymous Coward]

Graphite is kind of old-fashioned today. It was true high-tech in the seventies.

Boron was the thing for the eighties but seems to have lost steam as it is even more brittle than graphite. Anyhow my latest fishing rod is a mixture of Boron and Graphite (75%).
Stiffer than anything else and incredibly light.

I hope...

[mi]

...noone makes a batch of cofee cups from this material by mistake...

-mi

Goofy comparisons

[Anonymous Coward]

Comapring glaciers to Singapore, and now we have a material that:

has 4-5 times the efficiency of copper at 1/5th the weight of aluminum

Why don't they throw in "5th as flexible as leather". Or "100 times less soapy than soap"

Re:Goofy comparisons

[vought]

"1/10th less irritating than a Jon Katz article."

Re:Goofy comparisons

[b_pretender]

Don't forget that a materials heat conductivity is always exactly proportional to its electrical conductivity. Maybe we can use this new material for low density semiconductors!!

The electrical implimentations are limitless!!

Re:Goofy comparisons

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool. Didn't know that. However...what about superconductors?

Re:Goofy comparisons

[GigsVT]

Uh, wrong, try again.

Where did you find this "fact", the encyclopedia retardica?

Alumina, i.e. sapphires et al, have high thermal conductivity, and yet are almost total insulators. QED.

Please, please, try to check your facts. We all make mistakes, but I have seen so many totally wrong posts in this article that it is depressing me.

Re:Goofy comparisons

[Anonymous Coward]

always???, where orphus did you pull that theory out of? For example, Ceramic materials may conducted heat well but not electricity

Re:Goofy comparisons

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Alumina, i.e. sapphires et al, have high thermal conductivity, and yet are almost total insulators.

Hey, cool - shiny transparent heatsinks. And when you get engaged, you can mount it on a ring.

Re:Goofy comparisons

[jjsjeff]

Ummm... Last time I checked you *can* measure the actual thermal conductivity and weight of copper (or any other material) or look it up in a chart. These comparisons that they give in the article are very useful information to give people a general idea of what properties the material has.

The examples you give are completely useless without a standard to measure against.

-Jeff

Re:Goofy comparisons

[Chirs]

Hello? It is well known that copper is excellent at conducting heat, but is relatively heavy.

Aluminum is nice and light, but not as good a conductor of heat.

So here we have something that conducts heat better than copper, and is lighter than aluminum. Makes sense to me....

Re:Goofy comparisons

[trixillion]

Absolutely, in fact diamond has the highest heat capacity of any naturally occuring solid, while at the same time being a good insulator when undoped.

Re:Goofy comparisons

[Anonymous Coward]

I just thought it was silly-looking. We go from comparing thermal properties of two things and then they threw that aluminum thing in there. Seemed very similar to the Singapore/Glacier comparison. Non-sequitor, funny because the incongruity of comparison adds to the complexity of the description, which is exactly counterwise to the point of the comparison in the firstplace.

Re:Goofy comparisons

[Anonymous Coward]

No, diamonds have an incredibly high thermal conductivity. If it's heat capacity you are after you should try water.

anyone have any thoughts

[no reason to be here]

about the possibility of self-cooling, carbon-based computer chips?

Re:anyone have any thoughts

[HobbitGod42]

thats actually an interesting thought. no more heatsinks... even better make it strong and make car parts out of it... no more overheating in your car... but ofcourse since its only foam it is probably not that strong...

Re:anyone have any thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

Aluminum foam is a recent development which is supposed to be stronger than regular aluminum.

Re:anyone have any thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

The future of computer chips theoretically lies in carbon nanotubes. These of course will be much cooler than comparable silicon chips, but I'm assuming that vast increases in speed and complexity will still make external cooling a requirement.

Re:anyone have any thoughts

[Squalish]

The reason it has such high heat-conduction is that the carbon structure left is similar to diamond. I would expect that the bubbles would somewhat enforce(remove diamonds main weakness: directional cleavage) the strength of the foam, as compared to the normal carbon.

Uhhhhhhhhhh

[cscx]

This looks very similar to the conductive foam that you usually store CMOS ICs in to prevent them from static discharge...

Re:Uhhhhhhhhhh

[JesseL]

Except that ESD foam is electrically conductive, not (very) thermally conductive. Actually, ESD foam isn't really even all that electrically conductive.

Re:Uhhhhhhhhhh

[GigsVT]

Yep, and also, I have a multimeter and a piece of ESD foam right here. (God I'm a geek), and it measures 30,000-100,000 ohms depending on how close you put the probes to each other.

I can't believe how many TOTALLY IGNORANT posts there are in this article.

(not you JesseL, the parent of the thread)

Re:Uhhhhhhhhhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, I don't see how you're "overlooking" JesseL's stupid comment (backtracking anyone) and then slamming cscx about his comment.

cscx said (and I quote): "This looks very similar to the conductive foam that you usually store CMOS ICs in to prevent them from static discharge..."

HOW THE FUCK IS THIS IGNORANT?

it's his opinion on how it looks. And, in my opinion, you look like a big ass.

Re:Uhhhhhhhhhh

[cscx]

No shit.

It looks like ESD foam, which is all the parent post said. It really wasn't implying anything.

As for the guy who decided it was necessary to pull out a VOM and check the resistance of some ESD foam to prove... well, er... nothing... he can go shove a portly penguin up his ass.

Re:Uhhhhhhhhhh

[GigsVT]

That's because I AM a big ass!

Re:Uhhhhhhhhhh

[JesseL]

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding then.

Re:Uhhhhhhhhhh

[Vicegrip]

"If IE's Windows integration is a monopoly, then I'm all for the removal of Konqueror from KDE."

You got the code, rip it right out sonny boy.

fan combo!

[Anonymous Coward]

Combine this with the new fan technology, and I predict overclockers will achieve 800 gigahertz by 2005 :)

Current heatsinks are too heavy

[Anonymous Coward]

it is getting rediculious my frail geeky arms can't lift the whole 1 pound of my athlon's heatsink!

Mm.

[Anonymous Coward]

First, we'll never hear of this again likely.

Second, processors, etc.

Third, the most important - heating systems. What would this do in terms of cheapening the heating of houses and such? Or being used in a process to remove heat from a home? I'm no hvac person, but would something like this do wonders for those sort of things?

Re:Mm.

[GigsVT]

Where would you put it? The evaporators we have now are already pretty efficient in exchanging heat.

Hmm

[sulli]

What if they made Peeps out of this stuff?

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

They would taste horrible.

Next!

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

As opposed to what?

Underwear.

[Typingsux]

Get the heat off your privates so you blokes stop overpopulating the earth.

Re:Underwear.

[Thng]

Actually, heating the testes would lower sperm production, not cooling them, as efficient sperm production occurs at a couple degrees below body temp. Unless, of course, you get cold beer poured down your shorts... that usually decreases the chance of reproducing (that night, at least)

Re:Underwear.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, heating the testes would lower sperm production, not cooling them, as efficient sperm production occurs at a couple degrees below body temp.

Right. That's why they hang outside the body. Ever notice how they hang lower in hot weather, and come in closer when it's cold?

This is an evolutionary hack of the highest order.

"Hey, our higher body temperature is reducing the sperm count".

"No problem. Put the testicles in a little sack outside the body."

"Hey, our testicles are now exposed to danger!"

"No problem. Make them hurt like a sonofabitch and the owner will make SURE they don't get damaged."

I think we've probably all worked on code that's been modified by a similar process.

This is strong evidence for evolution, IMHO. Would an Intelligent Designer have come up with such a crappy design as the human scrotum? I think not.

Heatsink shroud.

[Night0wl]

Screw heatsink shroud. This sounds like a great mobo backing over the pin array on the back. And as a plug filler inbetween sockets.

Sounds like it'd do a wonder for preventing condensation, and helping at the same time for Pelter use..

sissy panzies and there water only setup's.

How strong is it?

[Steveftoth]

One thing they don't mention is how strong the material is. It might be brittle, or revert back to normal insulating carbon after a long while.
It seems like this is so new, they really don't know what to do with it.
That and you have to heat the carbon up to 3000 degrees to make it.

portables?

[Anonymous Coward]

While they are getting some really nice results on a weight vs. heat conduction, AL or CU heat sinks are still better when weight doesn't matter - like in your desktop computer.
A much better application for this stuff would be in portable computers. I can't think of any manufacturer that wouldn't like to cut 40grams from the top end laptops.

Disclaimer?

[Ermyf Jym]

Do you think it will come with a warning label that says "Caution! Contents Extremely Hot!" It should hold to at least the same standards as fast food restaurants!

Re:Disclaimer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. Yes I do.

dumbass.

Oh come on, we had these when I was a kid..

[Bowie J. Poag]

"Themoconductive carbon foam"? Puh-leaze. We had this shit when I was a kid. Magic Snakes -- You put em on the sidewalk and light them on fire. Just like the one that nearly wiped out South Park last 4th of July. :)

We were swimming in the stuff! ;)

Re:Oh come on, we had these when I was a kid..

[kawika]

I agree. Let me burn a couple of points here to whack on the moderators. I love a joke as much as the other guy, but this one isn't very good. Plus, I'm getting a little tired of the highest rated post in every thread being a cute comeback. Moderators, please make sure there are no useful or informative posts around before using your points on a lame joke.

Re:Oh come on, we had these when I was a kid..

[56ker]

If you must know I had the page on auto refresh, thought of a good joke, got halfway through typing it and the page auto refreshed - this happened a few times until I got so frustrated I forgot half the joke - and that's the problem! Anyway for all your criticism I don't see you coming up with something better!

Dumb question

[Halo-]

Why doesn't it burn? I know diamonds don't unless you subject them to really high temps, but this sounds a lot more like the allotrope(sp?) of carbon I'm a little more used to, which burns nicely...

Re:Dumb question

[NanoProf]

If you heat it up hot enough in the presence of oxygen, it will burn. So will a diamond, for that matter. The 3000 degree heat treatment that they use during synthesis must be done in an inert atmosphere. Coal burns more easily than diamonds, I'd guess, but both are carbon with fairly similar heats of combustion. Local carbon bonding comes in two main forms, sp2 (triangular) and sp3 (tetrahedral) bonding; the binding energies of the two are quite close and both will happily burn in the presence of oxygen, at high temperatures.

Too late!

[vandelais]

The Germans made their Zepplins out of this stuff sixty years ago.

Might be good for rocket engines

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Rocket engines need high thermal conductivity, to lower the inner temperature of the rocket engine, and light weight. If this material is as good as they say then provided they can sort out any potential mechanical issues this could well be an excellent material to use- graphite works very well anyway, and this sounds like it might work better.

Apples and Oranges

[ink]

Very pricey to produce but has 4-5 times the efficiency of copper at 1/5th the weight of aluminum.

Isn't that like saying "4-5 times faster than the SR-71 at 1/5th the weight of a Buick Regala"? Can't we keep our denominators straight here?

Re:Apples and Oranges

[distributed.karma]

Very pricey to produce but has 4-5 times the efficiency of copper at 1/5th the weight of aluminum.

Copper is a better conductor of heat than aluminium. 'nuff said.

Re:Apples and Oranges

[AnotherBlackHat]

Very pricey to produce but has 4-5 times the efficiency of copper at 1/5th the weight of aluminum.

Copper is a better conductor of heat than aluminium. 'nuff said.

The article states the foam is 4-5 times better than copper, and 3 1/2 times better than aluminum at conducting heat.

Yet another worthless piece of reporting. I think I'll wait until science news covers this story.

-- Spam Wolf, the best spam blocking vaporware yet!

Re:Apples and Oranges

[Beliskner]

Very pricey to produce but has 4-5 times the efficiency of copper at 1/5th the weight of aluminum. Isn't that like saying "4-5 times faster than the SR-71 at 1/5th the weight of a Buick Regala"? Can't we keep our denominators straight here?

No, it's important that lay people understand what we're talking about. If we said, "Napster, Morpheus, Gnutella and all clones are going to die because of the SSSCA" we would have created far more attention than writing in the OpenBSD TCP/IP stack source "/*DoWn W3th th3 SSSCA*/"

Re:Apples and Oranges

[distributed.karma]

The article states the foam is 4-5 times better than copper, and 3 1/2 times better than aluminum at conducting heat.

I think the article said, the material is 5 times better than copper, but an experiment with heat sinks only shows an improvement of 3 1/2. This may be true if the material has a preferred direction of best conductivity, which I suspect is the case. (An analogy is the tensile strength of glass fiber in different directions.)

I also suspect that the heatsink problem has other limiting factors besides the heatsink itself. For example in a computer you have to take into account the conductivity of the processor itself.

Shim?

[$carab]

Not sure you know what the hell a shim is, dude.
A shim refers to a piece of metal that is sandwiched between the heatsink and the proc to prevent crushing the proc core.

Not sure why the hell you'd use this stuff for a shim. As documented here and here, shims are generally useless and can cause more damage to processors because of heat/electrical distribution. Thus, shims are generally used to insure that shipping of the core by an over-zealous heatsink install will not occur. There are problems, however, being that if the shim is not exactly perfect, it will be either useless will create a gap between the heatsink and the proc, causing fryage.

Thus, most shims are made of light, nonconducting, cheap, oxidized aluminum. I could see abolutely no reason to make a shim out of this stuff.

Unless you meant to talk about the cap on the Pentium 4 procs. In which case, the purpose of the cap is just to spread heat around, and it serves its purpose fine. Intel isn't gonna make their procs a hundred bucks more expensive to help overclockers, whom they don't support anyway.

Re:Shim?

[geekoid]

I wasn't thinking about the shim when I posted about the fan.
I was thinking the fan could be the heat sink. so you have a heatsink that moves the air away from the chip. It would be lighter, which means it would take less enrgy to spin the blades, and the foam would be quiter.

Re:Shim?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure you know how to fucking read, dude.

The poster obviously didn't even say the word "shim". And I'll bet you get modded up for your long post.

assholes.

Re:Shim?

[Steveftoth]

The fan itself doesn't conduct any heat. Nor should it. If anything, this will help make heatsinks more conductive, and thus you may be able to get rid of the fan alltogether. Which would be great, less power consumed, and one less moving part in the computer. You can't just make a heat sink really really big and then get rid of the fan, that won't work. The heatsink has to be able to conduct that heat from the proc to the outside world.

Re:Shim?

[Beliskner]

Hey that's a good idea. If the fan and blades are made of aluminium and thermally coupled to the heatsink, the fan would also operate as a very effective radiator as the flow of air over the fan blades is at a very high velocity compared to even the most aerodynamically streamlined part of the heatsink.

The number of fan blades (now heat conductors) could be increased to transfer more heat especially using the new fans that have no central motor housing. As in most notebook PCs the fan can be used to augment the airflow through the heat pipe and over the heatsink when the temperature is high, e.g. Pentium III speedstep is operating on mains power, but such a thermally radiative fan could impede airflow when it's switched off.... Hmmmm looks like a trade-off.

Re:Shim?

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, in which case it isn't really going to help a whole lot because you can't easily change the thermal conductivity of air. That means more surface area, or applying some other technology to exchange the cooling media (air needs a fan, water a pump, etc.) Maybe someone partucullary brillant could use the principle of convection to better exchange air. However, the thermal gradients are going to have to be very very steep to get that kind of action going, at which point air isn't an effective coolant anyway. Just some thoughts.

Re:Shim?

[Steveftoth]

no you're right that air isn't going to be any better, but if it conducts heat better then you can make a larger heat sink, and the heat will cunduct further in the material that conducts heat better, thus more air will be touched by a hotter surface.

3000 degrees? I thought they said 1100?

[zerofoo]

I thought they "baked" this stuff at around 1100 degrees not 3000. Am I wrong?

-ted

Sounds like the...

[56ker]

poster was drunk...
Well... you put the heat sink shim here.

Re:Sounds like the...

[Anonymous Coward]

You better watch it, or I'll put my heat sink shim where you don't want it.

Great for slashdotters

[Anonymous Coward]

All we need now is a glove made of it, then you guys can wank off full speed without putting a single blister on your hands. For those multi talented you may need only one glove, typing here and wankin to goatse at the same time.

An athletic suit

[GreenPhreak]

It would be cool if you could make an athletic suit out of this material for athletes to wear to prevent being overheated. It would block the sun's rays (reducing heat), but allow excess thermal energy to slough off a runner into his/her surroundings. Maybe the foam would be too rigid to make into a wearable apparatus, but it sounds like a cool idea. Either way, it beats sweating in order to cool down.

Re:An athletic suit

[geekoid]

if its too good, you'ld "freeze" to death.

Re:An athletic suit

[mrgunntm]

Ah, but you would need a good conductor of heat to move the heat from the suit to the air (I.E. Run very quickly.) And the suit would simply gather heat from the sun ("You can have it in any color you want, as long as it's black")

Re:An athletic suit

[mi]

Will not work. Even if you workout naked -- uncovered -- and in the darkness (hush!) -- no sun rays, you still get overheated (assuming "room" temperature) and sweat. Sweat cools you down by evaporating, but this material will prevent the evaporation. Unless, of course, it is also porous...

Re:An athletic suit

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you freeze to death? Does this stuff somehow circumvent the laws of thermodynamics?

Re:An athletic suit

[Squalish]

"In my house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics !!!" - Homer Simpson

Heatsink shim?

[Sibelius]

"This sounds like the perfect heatsink shim to me."

This sounds like a better heatink material to me. Especially for the difficult=to-extrude shapes that may be required for the next generation of efficiency advances.

Re:Attention Slashdorks

[HobbitGod42]

actually I say it all the time. I wish I could spend more time infront of my beige box... and trolls suck.

Re:Make a beer keg blanket to keep your kegs cool.

[mrgunntm]

Wrapping it around your fridge or keg would only transfer heat from your house into the keg. Bug engines, however, could use a good bit of cooling.

House insulation is just that.. insulation. this foam is heat conducting. which isn't so good at keeping the summers outside from attacking you or your mini server room.

Re:Make a beer keg blanket to keep your kegs cool.

[Anonymous Coward]

> My Sears Kenmore fridge uses fiberglass insulation or foam to keep the cold in. If it used this foam instead they could use a smaller compressor and less freon which is better for the enviroment.

> Make a beer keg blanket to keep your kegs cool.

> Replace house insulation with this.

Someday you should look up the difference between an 'insulator' and a 'conductor'.

> reverse the polarity on the foam and draw the heat from the attic into the house in the winter

Or maybe IHBT?

Nice.

[zapfie]

I can see many potential uses for this, including shaving foam and marshmallows that make your cocoa cold.

Re:Nice.

[Anonymous Coward]

How do they make the cocoa cold?

Re:Make a beer keg blanket to keep your kegs cool.

[GigsVT]

They need to make a "-1 Totally wrong" moderation up just for you.

One problem.....

[Veramocor]

If you read the literature fully you'll find that the thermal conductivity is directionally orienented. So if you go 90 degrees in the other direction of the fibers it basically has a thermalconductivity of 1/5 aluminum. (see table 1 of the second ducument).

This may not matter for applictions like a processor, but cooling other objects with more of a 3-d surface may be a problem.

Re:Make a beer keg blanket to keep your kegs cool.

[JesseL]

Using good thermal conductors for keeping things cool only works when they are hotter than ambient. This stuff will not help keep your fridge or your keg cool. Also, using this foam for cooling things like engines will only work as long as it can transfer heat to the air more efficiently than what they already have, otherwise the foam will just get heat-saturated and your engine will still be too hot.

It's a thermal conductor, not an insulator.

[mcmasuda]

Putting this on your beer keg would be like putting a huge heat sink on it. You'd pull heat into the beer.

And I don't know where you got the polarity idea... it's not a Peltier.

Re:It's a thermal conductor, not an insulator.

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd pull heat into the beer.

I think the laws of thermodynamics want to have a quick word with you.

Re:It's a thermal conductor, not an insulator.

[Xacid]

This is what I was wondering. Would it work as insulation or would it actually be more of a kind of anti-insulation? I'm not too familiar with the laws of thermodynamics or whatever.

I am utterly amazed....

[dr_db]

That so many posters confuse a heat conductor with a heat pump.

Come on - this will not be "keeping your fridge colder" or "cooling your drinks". It will just make whatever it's attached to move to the ambient temperature faster. Wrap it around your fridge and you will have sour cream in your milk, etc. Or else the coldest kitchen around.

Either it's a brain dead friday, or the collective IQ of Slashdot is lower than I assumed over the last few years.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[Anonymous Coward]

I vote for option number 3. Oh wait. DOH!

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you could *make* these posts make sense. A better heatpump to pull the heat from the inside of the fridge would be based on something very conductive. Likewise cooling the drinks could use this material, but in the context of a larger device.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[AnalogBoy]

The collective IQ has dropped significantly. About now, the 2nd generation of slashdotters are making their exodus to other news sites - or - worse - the real world. By leaving the collective and making the ratio of clue decreases, leaving the bottom-rung stallmanite slashdrones to pick up the slack, so to speak. in addition the average age is now lower.

Perhaps we should charter a report on slashdot groupthink. if i were in college i'd do it.

Alternately, i accept the idea that it is indeed brainded friday.

[Disclaimer - Due to the extraction of a wisdom tooth today and the subsequent mind-numbing hydrocodone, i do not claim responsibility for the content or readability of my above post. It makes sense as i type it. thats all that matters. =) ]

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[shaar]

uhm... a fridge is a heat pump that takes heat from the inside and moves it outside. so wrapping this around your fridge (back of the fridge in particular) will give you a really _hot_ kitchen, and a really really cold fridge (given no hardware failure). The body of the fridge would do a decent job of insulating the outside from the inside, the conductor will just help the heat pump.

For somebody lambasting posters for not having a good grasp of heat transfer, you sure didn't spend much time thinking about it.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[Anne_Nonymous]

>> I am utterly amazed...That so many posters confuse a heat conductor with a heat pump.

It's not the heat, it's the humanity.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[Some Dumbass...]

That so many posters confuse a heat conductor with a heat pump.

We're not all engineers, you know. Some of us are English Majors.

Speaking of which, you've got a nasty sentence fragment problem there...

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[CanadaDave]

I agree with your comment, but why don't you just increase your threshold so that you don't see those posts that are moderated down. I filter out score:-1 and score:0 posts, so I never have to see the "low-IQ" posts as you call them, nor the trolls. This is what is so great about Slashdot! It is moderated! But not by a supreme moderator, but by several. And if I understand the system correctly, anyone who gets their Karma high enough can become a moderator. It's a perfect system. The only people who get to see the trolls are the moderators, who frankly should only feel satisfaction every time they give a -1 score to a post deserving of that score. Peace.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[56ker]

I disagree with that statement I happen to have a Mensa level IQ and I still wasn't smart enough to spot that shim in the original article wasn't a spelling mistake & got marked down accordingly.
The point being - just because you are intelligent doesn't mean you're going to post intelligently. As to /.ers getting sick of /. - well I've noticed a considerable drop in the quality of /. stories (and posters) recently too. (and no that isn't a troll - just an observation)

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[sweet reason]

wrapping this around your fridge (back of the fridge in particular) will give you a really _hot_ kitchen

it might make the fridge's heat exchanger slightly more efficient, but that just means the compressor won't need to run quite so long to cool the fridge, which in turn means the kitchen will get less hot, since the heat given of by a fridge comes mostly from the motor. the heat being moved from the inside came from the outside in the first place.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[AnalogBoy]

Actually, the slashdot system, like any other system run by a human being, is corrupt.. look up $rtbl's, modbombing, etc.

IMHO, it's much better to mod UP intelligent comments than mod DOWN the endless stream of idiotic drivel that goes on here. It's easier to seperate the wheat from the chaff than the chaff from the wheat.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[56ker]

Yes - and we all prefer to be modded up *hint* *hint* *nudge* *nudge* than modded down. Mind you the opinions of the ones holding the points varies - I've had the same post modded up and down before.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[Dirtside]

leaving the bottom-rung stallmanite slashdrones

Yeah, but you're still here. I blame the hydrocodone. :)

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[AnalogBoy]

I have a lot of free time. I won't remember typing any of this tomorrow.

You know, i've tried to give up on slashdot many times before, but its so easy to be baited back into a debate here. Being me on slashdot is like being a masochistic atheist who regularly attends a baptist church. I don't have anything against linux or freebsd, really... they have their uses.. but its their fan clubs i have a problem with :)

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[hyrdra]

My god! The TRAVESTY! We all must be utterly retarded if we don't know the difference between a heat pump and a heat conductor!

Jeez, what a jerk. There are always common misconceptions, even among geeks. We're all here to learn and gain more knowledge via interesting and thought provoking conversation on Slashdot.

So don't come off like an ass hole. I'm sure someone has set you straight in something embarrassingly stupid that you should've known.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[_TinCho]

Intelligence is a constant, but the population this growing.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[acmeplutonium]

Uno, dos, tres. Quien esta mis chica?

Elissa, go here, if you dare...

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[dr_db]

I am even more amazed that my comment got +5.

I started early in the thread, before it starts hiding the 0's and 1's, so I got to see all the messages. There were people commenting that you could replace the insulation in the fridge and make your fridge colder. Or drop a chunk in your drink to cool it.

Replacing the insulation in your fridge may work well in the artic, but usually not where humans live. Dropping it in your drink? Where in the hell is it going to conduct the heat to?

I ignore spelling errors, and fragmentary writing, since I am likely worse than anyone else at it - but when people have such a lack of clue on the concept, they should remain quiet. I, for example, will read all about linux stories, but I sure as hell don't post there because I would be talking out my ass.

You know the quote - Better to remain quiet and thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[Skyfire]

Thought provoking? You must be new to /.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[digitalunity]

Puhlease... Mensa level IQ. That means that 1 out of 50 random citizens could beat you on the same IQ test. It's not really a very high accomplishment. How about having an IQ in the top .2%? I have a feeling that many of the people on /. are in fact in the top 2% of Americans with respect to intelligence.

Then again, you could simply disregard this post completely. I am an *elitist snob* by nature.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[56ker]

Yeah but it also means 49 out of 50 won't. The day I took it I felt tired and ill so maybe I'd have scored higher had I been my normal self. Oh and BTW I'm not American which you seem to imply in your reply - and yes you do come over as an *elitist snob* but have not written anything to back it up. In fact I'm wondering if your entire comment is meant to be funny & not takem seriously.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[Anonymous Coward]

Reminscent of the charactar in One Flew Over a Cuckoo Nest who likened himself to be one of the doctors of the institution when he was really a patient.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[digitalunity]

No, I'm serious. And I really am an elitist snob, a perfectionist, an intravert, as well American(good guess; I didn't presume that about you though).

My biggest problem with the average American is complacency and apathy. In this day and age(I'm only 20, btw) people are fucking ecstatic about spending their last dime on status symbols they can't afford. It's consumerism at it's worst. That is why I am such a snob. I'm 20; I own 2 cars outright. I work very hard, but I'm not a workaholic. I have a good job, and I'm surrounded by low income white trash(excuse the expression) who can't get a better job because they don't care enough to excersize their minds as much as their wallets.

Research studies have shown that it is never too late to increase your brains capacity for knowledge or learn new skills. They would all drown in their own self created pity-pools if they weren't so apathetic about their lives.

As far as Mensa goes, I took the online pretest and got 29 out of 30 in 16 minutes. After reading about Mensa, they came off even more elitist than I yet had less to back it up. That, and they seemed a little droll. The last time I took my IQ test, I scored in the top .68% :)

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[56ker]

People are just as apathetic in the U.K. As to car owning - I just have a pedal bike as I realise I need the exercise every so often. As to your "low income white trash" remark there are a lot of people who have very low aspirations & the monotony of a low-paid job can lower their self-esteem to the point where they don't bother thinking of changing career. They also may have a family to support (which at a guess you don't). As to it's never too late to learn new skills - I agree - but it takes older people longer (I should know I've taught people in their 50s). As to the online pretest - they make those things *too* easy. As to the IQ test - the only way you get proper results is by taking it under exam conditions - also different grading systems give you different numbers & the number needed to join Mensa varies from country to country. As to elitist - all you have to do is read a few Mensa usenet posts to see that! Oh and BTW I'm only 21 so what do I know? People get too easily swayed by adverts these days into buying things they don't need. What is this good job you do then?

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[digitalunity]

Yeah, IQ test results should always be compared in percentiles. The numbers are different for every test. I do web development and I design and build sports car parts. I do a little mechanic work in my garage, but that's only when I go out and spend all my money and really need some.

Re:I am utterly amazed....

[Anonymous Coward]

Mensa level.....amusing.
Have you ever actually been to a MENSA meeting?
It's downright hilarious to see the pecking order hash itself out within a group of social maladroits.
IQ without EQ to allow harnessing of intellect is pretty much worthless.
Think of a smart geek without the social skills necessary for anyone to recognize anything but an abnoxious dweeb.
Recognize the description ?
Thought so......Next geek please, I'm on a tight schedule here!

Re:Oh come on, when I was a kid..

[56ker]

in 1920.. or was it '21 I came up with the idea for slashdot. Of course computers and the internet hadn't been invented yet and by the time they were I was too senile to remember I'd had the idea in the first place so I turned my efforts to thermally conductive foam. Nurse.. nurse!?

hmmm...

[nEoN nOoDlE]

carbon based thermal conducting foam, huh? I wonder if I can encase someone in this stuff and hang em up on the wall in my desert palace...

Heat sink shim?

[RainbowSix]

Heat sink shims are for balancing the pressure of the heat sink on the CPU die so that the heat is transferred evenly and that the core doesn't get damaged by unequal pressure. It does nothing for cooling. You could use concrete if you wanted to, it is just that nobody would buy that because it isn't a colorful shade of copper.

Re:Heat sink shim?

[sweet reason]

It does nothing for cooling.
it's nice if the shim is at least as conductive as the heat sink. this would seem to be, and being foam it will conform to the shape of the chip and the sink.

Great for Cooling UltraDense Clusters & Handhe

[LuxuryYacht]

This is a great material for cooling supercomputers and ultra-dense servers that would otherwise require more elaborate elaborate liquid cooling systems.

The handheld and laptop market is another area that could really use this to keep the cpu and graphics processor cool.

This sounds like it takes highly thermally conductive polymers like CoolPoly to another level.
.

Good for space

[in seine]

Just the thing to keep things cool in orbit. This is important because the effeciency of solar panels goes down as they get hot. The only way for the heat to get out is ratiation and your opponent is the sun.

Re:Make a beer keg blanket to keep your kegs cool.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrapping it around your fridge or keg would only transfer heat from your house into the keg

Now that really depends on the temperature difference between house and keg, doesn't it?

Yeah!

[BlackGriffen]

I remember when I was in sixth grade, what 8 years ago, and we were visiting the local state university. One of the professors had a lecture about research he was doing in to sonic refrigeration, and even showed us some units that could build up a pretty good sized thermal gradient. Being the environmentally conscious little git I was, wanting a freon free frige, I asked him how far from a commercial product they were. He said 3-4 years.....

BlackGriffen

Not all that hot...

[jmichaelg]

Not sure where the 4-5 times copper efficiency comes from.

If you read Poco Graphite's tech specs on the material, you'll see that the thermal conductivity is between 100-150 W/m-K . Depending on alloy, copper runs 3 times better at between 350-400 W/m-K. Good aluminum gets close to 200 W/m-K.

You aren't going to see this stuff used in a radiator unless weight is a primary constraint. Looks to me like /. and ABC news got hyped into running non-news.

Re:Not all that hot...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea, I'll second this. It's certainly an interesting material, but nowhere near the miracle that the slasdot crowd seems to believe.

As you said, it's not even as good as an average al alloy. But it is very cood for a foam! Considering its porosity, it might make a very good heat exchanger for some special situations. You could pump your working fluid through the foam, transferring heat out of it during the transit.

Re:Not all that hot...

[forkboy]

Glad to see someone else looked at the specs. Look closer though....PURE copper runs 350-400 W/m-K...pure copper isn't usually used, an alloy is. The more common alloys are listed and the foam was better than most of them. Aluminum was definately a better thermal conductor but only by about 15-25%, depending on alloy. Considering the weight tradeoff, you could use a bit more of this stuff to get more surface area or even add something to increase external air flow, and still have overall lighter weight.

What was weird to me was the rather large variation in density. 12-37 lb/cubic ft. I would imagine that this is due to variations in the amount of air bubbles of the foam, but that's an order of magnitude of up to 3 times more dense. Can't they control the porosity better than that? It doesn't seem to match with the 73-82% figure they give.

I'm guessing that the more porous variations would be better conductors, since it's largely surface area that affects thermal conductivity...which is a pretty good idea that I'm surprised no one has thought of sooner. I'm wondering how the bubbles in the middle would account for surface area though if the entire structure wasnt completely air permeable.

Anyway, I'm not an engineer or anything, just a lowly college student, so I might be talking out of my ass.

Re:Not all that hot...

[jmichaelg]

....PURE copper runs 350-400 W/m-K...pure copper isn't usually used, an alloy is.

I was talking about copper alloys. At room temperature, Both copper 110 and 101 alloys have a thermal conductivity of 391 W/m-k. Phosphorous laced copper alloys will drop you down to around 380. The only reason I happen to have these numbers is I'm currently working on a heat sink.

The news article that got this thread going had so many inaccuracies that I'm prone to think that a marketeer at Poco got somebody at ABC News all excited with hype. Given the foam's poor thermal conductivity, I seriously doubt the national security agency is using it as a heat sink unless, possibly, it's on a satellite. But if that were the case, Poco would have been nda'd and the story wouldn't have made light of day. The story smells of marketeer-speak.

You're right about the density uneveness. There are several elemental foams available that have very uniform density. You can get metal silver foams for applications where surface area is very important. John Carnack (of doom fame) has been playing around with silver foams as a catalyst for hydrogen peroxide to drive his rocket.

However, as a heatsink, foams don't fare well because heat transfer is partially a function, not of surface area as you assert, but of the cross-sectional area perpendicular to heat flow. Foams have lots of surface area which is nice for catalysts but have lousy cross-sectional areas which is what is needed to transfer heat from one edge of the foam to the other. Once the heat is spread out over a heatsink's mass, THEN the heatsink's surface area comes into play. Foams suffer as heatsinks because they can't move heat well from the primary hot spot to their extremeties.

Having said all that, there's some experimental work going on with carbon heat sinks that are configured in standard heatsink geometries. Anandtech's Cebit report shows a few pictures of some carbon heatsinks. Carbon is attractive, because as an element, it does show promise. As a working material, it's difficult. If carbon nanotubes ever get out of the lab, there'll be a huge change - they've got great thermal conductivity - somewhere in the thousands of watts.

Sumo Suits

[switcha]

or you could make one of those Sumo Suits out of it and be able to 'rassel for hours without overheating. Think of the possibilities! And the children!

Re:Apples and Oranges - best properties compared.

[anvilmark]

Sheesh, talk about everyone missing the point.

Copper is the best material commonly used for heat transfer. Aluminum is often substituted because it is lighter (and cheaper). They (not me) are comparing this new material to the best qualities of each material.

Come on, pay attention here.

Re:3000 degrees? I thought they said 1100?

[NanoProf]

1100 is mentioned near the beginning. A later paragraph states:

Another reason is the high production cost. As part of the final manufacturing process, the foam must be heated to temperatures as high as 3,000 degrees Celsius or more than 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit. "That's a tremendous amount of energy," says Conway. And as such, the ovens are necessarily very small and the yield of material is often very modest.

Foam

[gonavyair]

I think this is a really good way to go. Copper is efficent and cheap, but foam will become easier to produce as our technology grows.

Re:shim..sink - explaination

[anvilmark]

As the AC poster stated, the shim goes between a chip and the heat sink to maximize thermal transfer and protect surface components. There are copper versions for many CPUs. Alot of people use arctic silver or thermal grease for this purpose.

I could see it being used as a "shim" because the stuff is hellishly expensive. If the chip doesn't have much surface topography, this layer could be as thin as onion skin and still do the job. This would keep the price down. I doubt that it would be cost effective over the existing solutions, but it would be functionally superior for those that 'gotta have the best'.

Yes, making big heat exchangers would produce optimal results, but - repeat it with me: THE STUFF IS EXPENSIVE.

Guess misunderstandings are the price you have to pay for being an *applied* scientist and trying to take economics into account.

Re:shim..sink - explaination

[56ker]

Yes I'm the person who started the thread and lost two karma this topic for not knowing what a shim was! Last time I saw a heat sink it was connected view a screw to the thing it was drawing heat from not a shim. By shim is this what it is referring to? Or is a shim the metal bit connected to the chip that the heatsink is screwed too? Then again it probably wasn't a chip I saw as it was part of a transformer.

Carbon this, carbon that

[Tomster]

Have you noticed how it seems like nearly every recent significant advance in materials sciences and engineering is based on carbon? Sheesh, pretty soon they'll be announcing carbon based life forms....

think outside the beige box...

[llamalicious]

add-on heat conductors for improving air-ventilation on disc brakes...
make make WRX even happier :)

useful in supersonic aircraft... conduct the heat away from leading edges much faster than normal.

c'mon, join in... what other real-world apps could this be useful for. if the price can come down, and the production can come up... I can think of a lot more places this stuff would make sense.

Re:think outside the beige box...

[DragonWyatt]

Integral component of this stuff?

(obligatory free sample link)

Group IV elements

[CanadaDave]

This just makes me appreciate once again the amazing capabilities of the Group V elements in the periodic table. Carbon and silicon are two of the most amazing elements. Silicon has completely transformed our electronic world in so many ways, I won't even bother mentioning them all. And carbon, well just in case some of you don't know, is what Iron is doped with to create Steel! And we can't forget Carbon Fibre Composites, not to mention the future: BuckyBalls and carbon nanotubes. Probably the worst thing these two elements created were diamonds (which provide millions of dollars to the DeBeers empire every year from men around the world) and silicone gels, which have given us breast implants, which some may say is a good thing, but I think otherwise...

BZZT wrong.

[Crag]

a) fridges have thermostats, so they won't lower the temperature of their contents below whatever they are set to.

b) The parent was refering to wrapping the entire fridge in this stuff, alluding to defeating the insolating properties of the fridge walls.

c) The only thing better heat conduction will do to a fridge is make it faster. The temp difference will be achieved sooner if more heat is carried out of the innards at a time. This was not the situation the parent was refering to, however.

Please accept a copy of the home game as a consolation prize.

The fragment was finishing the subject

[Crag]

Since the slashdot post subject lenght is limited the parent post's author started the sentance in the subject and finished it with the "sentance fragment".

The whole sentance was: "I am utterly amazed that so many posters confuse a heat conductor with a heat pump." It would have been clearer had the first line started with "...that" instead of "That", but considering the audience, the effort would have been wasted.

The real question is...

[NanoGator]

... can they install Linux on it?

Double braindead, it seems

[PhysicsGenius]

You are wrong and they are right...but for the wrong reasons.

A high-efficiency heat conductor is one that acts quickly. In other words, when a fast moving atom/molecule hits it, the conductor responds more quickly in absorbing the thermal energy and transmitting it to the ambient environment. A 100% efficient conductor would transmit this energy so quickly that all fast moving atoms would come to a virtual standstill inside the container--in other words, absolute zero.

Practically speaking this never happens. Still, wrapping a really fast conductor around a soft drink will cool it off. But you still wouldn't want to do that because you couldn't pick up the glass--the outer surface is going to be hot.

Re:Double braindead, it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

>A 100% efficient conductor would transmit this
>energy so quickly that all fast moving atoms would
>come to a virtual standstill inside the
>container--in other words, absolute zero.

Uhmmm ... a heat conductor can only move heat across a temperature differential. So, unless the other side of the conductor is already at absolute zero, your scenario won't happen.

Wrapping this stuff around a soft drink that is already at ambient temperature will accomplish nothing. There is no temperature gradient, so no heat transfer, regardless of how good the conductor is.

Re:Double braindead, it seems

[jaoswald]

Sorry, try again.

Conduction through a heat conductor can be represented with the thermal equivalent of Ohm's law. Warmth of a soft drink above room temperature is equivalent to a charged capacitor, where you can consider the room to be ground.

In your drink experiment, a drink warmer than room temperature will equilibrate to room temperature eventually. The speed with which it will equilibrate with a time constant

tau = RC

where R is the thermal resistance, C the heat capacity of the soft drink.

Lower R (better thermal conductivity) means the time is faster. However, when all is said and done, the drink and the room are all the same temperature, and that temperature does NOT depend on the thermal conductivity. It depends on the relative heat capacities. Given that the room is much bigger than the drink, its heat capacity is much larger, so the change in room temperature is negligible. (The amount of heat in a warm drink is the amount of heat in an infinitesimally warmer room.)

The only thing that could get signficantly hotter is a cold drink in a warm room.

I think you need to study a bit harder, Mr. PhysicsGenius.

Re:Double braindead, it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

hehehe, thanks for a funny post and a cheap feeling of superiority. not only am i better at physics than you, i'm also better at trolling than you are!

I've played with this stuff before... it's neat

[Anonymous Coward]

My mom works for ORNL and has a piece for demonstrations. It's pretty amazing how well it works. You can put it in your hand and set an ice cube on the other side. You immediately feel the decrease in temperature.

ORNL has been looking into making this into heat sinks for processors. What I wonder about: since the research was paid for with tax dollars, shouldn't the product be in public domain? Apparently, they have it patented and keep the process pretty secret.

Re:I've played with this stuff before... it's neat

[Anonymous Coward]

ummmm...here's a quick experiment. put an ice cube on your hand. i bet you feel the difference in temperature immediately, too.

A revolution in heat sink shim technology.

[NFW]

1/5 the weight of aluminum! Can you imagine?

We all know how important it is for your CPU cooler to have a the best power-to-weight ratio possible.

You aren't paying attention

[PhysicsGenius]

The temperature gradient exists within the conductor. You see, the heat energy moves so fast it is kind of "sucked along". More formally, infinitesimal energy dE moves from point dx with speed v, which leaves the differential temperature dT lower than the dx-deltaX, thus producing a gradient down which further energy can move.

This is basic first year stuff.

Re:You aren't paying attention

[Anonymous Coward]

You're new to this troll stuff, aren't you?

I worked for the manufacturer - Poco Graphite

[chrisflusche]

I worked for POCO Graphite in Decatur, Texas up until 6 months ago. POCO is the only licensed manufacturer of graphite foam (POCOFoam is their name for it). This stuff isn't just good for a heat sink shim - IT CAN EASILY REPLACE YOUR ENTIRE HEATSINK AND FAN! But- heatsinks are only the beginning. POCO has made prototype car radiators out of this stuff that are 6 inches by 8 inches by 1 inch - AND THEY WORK EXTREMELY WELL! To get an idea of just how well POCOFoam transfers heat, check out this video clip http://www.pocofoam.com/images/foam.mov. You will be highly impressed - I guarantee!

Re:I worked for the manufacturer - Poco Graphite

[Anonymous Coward]

Which ignorant moderator modded this advertising up?

Re:I worked for the manufacturer - Poco Graphite

[chrisflusche]

This isn't advertising, I don't even work for the company anymore. I just happen to believe in this particular product. It is very impressive IN MY OPINION.

So...

[Anonymous Coward]

How fast could I thaw a steak with a chunk of that stuff?

IF I EVER MEET YOU

[Anonymous Coward]

I will congratulate you on your insight!!!

Why would you want a shim? Make a heatsink instead

[Hektor_Troy]

A shim (as I understand it) will do about as much for your heat transfer as jumping up and down will cause an earthquake. More or less.

I thought, that maybe I was missing something in my vocabulary (english isn't my maternal language), but neither Merriam-Webster nor my Oxford dictionary was able to find more than one meaning of the word:

a thin often tapered piece of material (as wood, metal, or stone) used to fill in space between things (as for support, leveling, or adjustment of fit)

If you were to create a heat spreader (the chip on the left) as in the old socket 370 celerons and new Pentium III and Pentium IV (the large block of metal protecting the chip die), it would probably be a lot more useful (depending on it's strength of course).

If it is stong enough, it would probably be quite useful as a heatsink as well, although it would probably cost you a bundle at the moment.

But why use it as a shim? What next? Only use money for wiping your butt (don't try this trick with coins. Don't ask!)?

Re:shim..sink - WRONG explanation

[Osty]

The AC poster was wrong, and so are you. Thermal compound (arctic silver, the thermal pad you see on most HSFs, other grease) is completely different. It's used to fill in the microscopic holes in the top of the CPU core and bottom of the HSF (good HSFs are machined smooth, but if your HSF isn't, with a little patience you can lap it smooth). You only want a very thin layer of this stuff, because while it is thermally conductive, it's not as conductive as a dry metal<->metal joint. You want just enough to create a light film on the CPU core (if you get a little too much, that's fine as the pressure of the HSF will squeeze the excess out -- if you get way too much, grab some rubbing alcohol, clean off the core, and start over). It works best if you squeeze out a small line of the stuff, and then draw it across the CPU using a credit card.

Shims are for spacing, period. (other posts have explained shims sufficiently, so I'll leave that as an excercise to the reader.)

Question about drag

[DumbSwede]

Sounds like this could be used for lots of heat transfer applications, but I have one question. If radiators on cars and truck create such drag, why not mount them on the front side fenders sideways? There would be some drag from the protruding fins slicing through air, but much less than air plunging into the engine compartment. Or does the engine need additional cooling besides the circulating coolant?

Re:Question about drag

[Butcho]

Don't change your name.

Re:Question about drag

[DumbSwede]

OK, I'll bite.
Ha, Ha, I must be Dumb as in DumbSwede.
Why is this a dumb question? The article, which I read in full mentions shrinking radiator footprint as a major application. If this is so important, why haven't other methods been employed to reduce footprint. This is a little off topic, but is raised in the article.

Re:Question about drag

[Anonymous Coward]

Similar designs have been employed. Look at the GM Precept.

Re:Heat Foam? Power Concrete?

[nelsonal]

Cool, I'm the tick> SPOOOOOOOOOOOONNNN!

Anyhow, you still can't spell...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's sentEnce, not "sentance"...

Grafoil: graphite heat conductors

[Dahan]

While not the same thing, carbon has been used as a heatsink interface material for years. My DEC Alpha came with a Grafoil pad to use between the processor and the heatsink, in lieu of heat sink paste. It's apparently spongy graphite made into a flexible pad.

Starlite Starbrite

[Anonymous Coward]

Starlite... STARLITE... S T A R L I T E

Nobody remembers this? Coat a raw egg in Starlite, doesn't cook with an oxy-acetylene torch going full-tilt on it. Turns out Starlite has abnornal heat conduction properties. 12 YEARS ago. People, get with it.
I guess Starlite was 'buried' quite nicely by the PTBs.

Computer case

[StrandgecK]

Make a computer case out of this or fill the inside of it with this stuff, no?

The speed at which heat travels.

[Mastagunna]

The reason this stuff is so hard to burn is that it conducts heat so quickly. For an area to burn it needs an average temperature equal or greater then its flash point. In the case with carbon, in the form of graphite, or this compound the electrons, which are responsible for heat/energy, flow very freely. This quick transfer of energy, from the area of application to the rest of the object and the surrounding area is what keeps it from burning, and makes it a good heat sink. Graphite does not have a high flash point but it's hard as heck to get it to ignite. This stuff will burn, it just seems like it takes forever to ignite, cause a good deal of the heat you add is just transferred away,

HAHA

[IHopeYouTripAndFall]

Actually, that was pretty good. Gracias Senor!

waterblock already done

[mesach]

i cant remember where but someone already made a waterblock out of this stuff, he said that for the price he could only afford a piece half inch square, and it didnt perform all that well to really justify the cost.

Re:waterblock already done

[mesach]

Sorry i found the site and it wasnt a half inch piece, it was a 2"x2"x2" piece and the block wasnt entirely made out of the foam just to clarify that part

wanna buy some?

[mesach]

heres the manufacturer

Thermoacoustics

[Rhindle]

I assume you are talking about thermoacoustic refrigeration, and research is still ongoing. For the uninitiated, thermoacoustics is the intersection of thermodynamics and acoustics. In a nutshell, thermoacoustics can be described as the management of heat energy using sound waves.

AFAIK, thermoacoustic refrigeration still does not beat conventional vapor compression systems for efficiency, but offers a very reliable, environmentally-friendly system with few moving parts. Vapor compression systems may be very reliable in your kitchen, but they prove unreliable in mobile applications subject to severe vibration and shock (e.g., military applications).

One leader in the field of thermoacoustic research is small business Clever Fellows Innovation Consortium (they performed some research for my cubicle neighbor last year). And if you're curious, there is a lot more information on the web; a Google search for "thermoacoustic refrigeration" yielded me 713 hits. Los Alamos National Laboratory has several resources on their thermoacoustics page.

fa!

[Anonymous Coward]

Might be good for getting rid of EMI too.

Heat dissipation capacity?

[p3d0]

Sure, this stuff is more efficient than copper for conducting heat, meaning it has a low thermal resistance. However, to continue the electrical analogy, I wonder what would be the "thermal current" it could support? That is, how many watts could this material really dissipate? For all we know from the article, maybe if you try to put in more than a few watts per square inch, the stuff melts or catches fire.

Re:Heat dissipation capacity?

[p3d0]

Oops, my mistake. I suppose if they can use it as a truck radiator, it must have a pretty high capacity for dissipating heat. Never mind.

Someone mod the parent down for me...

Re:3000 degrees? I thought they said 1100?

[zerofoo]

Yup, you're right. That's an insane amount of heat....this product won't be cheap.

-ted