Slashdot Mirror
Thumbs Are the New Fingers for GameBoy Youth
An anonymous reader writes "Reuters is running an interesting story on how the use of gadgets such as mobile phones and GameBoys has caused a physical mutation in young people's hands. The use of the thumb is a deviation from the use of the index finger..."
So, an invention caused a DNA change? Try "adaptation", Reuters.
Of course, these are the people that won't call a suicide bomber who kills 3000 people a "terrorist".
cows don't play Nintendo - No opposible thumbs.
Error: Erection reset by beer.
It is possible that the use of hand-held devices make one's own thumbs more dextrous, but that certainly doesn't cause a mutation, which is a genetic change. That would be Lamarkian inheritance of accquired characteristics. Both Slashdot and the article are using a completely incorrect term.
Except for the fact that our eyesight is going down the tubes for playing all these games. We are going to be the most versatile group of half blind geeks around. I know personally I'm only in my early 20's but have been playing games since I could pick up a controller and I'm having some problems with my hands lately. If I don't use an ergonomic keyboard I'll be in major discomfort for a few days. I've started taking Vioxx as an anti-inflammatory for my right thumb and index finger. I must be overworking these. I don't know about other geeks out there but I get scared about my hands cause these are my livelyhood and how I bring home the $$. I lose a finger or two and I'm SOL. So a message to geeks of tomorrow: Protect the digits at all costs!
"I'd always had longer hair than other boys. I was a long-haired musician before hippies came along." Willie Nelson
They're suggesting people have used thumbs so often that they are more skilled with using thumbs than index fingers. Not a mutation.
If I play a musical instrument then I don't look at my fingers anymore (either when playing the piano or guitar), does that mean that I have mutated in a musick playing monster?
I think the author mixed 'learning' with 'mutating'
--
If code was hard to write, it should be hard to read
Next thing you know we'll start seeing class action lawsuits to Nintendo and Nokia for making devices that are "mutalating" the youth of america.
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Just because somebody is dextrous with their thumb doesn't mean they are mutated... duh. News for nerds, yeah whatever.
A physical mutation would mean a cancerous growth - what I think this is is people's habits being changed as to which finger (or thumb) they use.
Video Game cheats, hints a
See here for articles from last year on this topic.
It's not evolution! It's common sense! Use your thumbs more, and they'll become stonger, more flexible, and more dexterous. Not evolution, muscles.
Is it merely a change in dexterity caused by practice? Does the Game Boy really cause, in less than one generation, a mutation in "young people"? Or is this more evidence that journalists cannot seem to grasp even the barest essentials of science?
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
First, this isn't really a physical mutation in the thumb, and it certainly isn't to the point where it is getting passed on genetically at this point. Far to earlier to even speculate about that.
Second, evolution on a large time scale has been old school for almost 30 years now. Gould et al came up with the term punctured equilibrium to identify the changes that occur in species over a geologically brief period of time as a result of adaptations. Unfortunately, because of the state of science/biology/evolutionary instructions in today's high schools and even universities, evolution is still taught as a straw man for creationists and ID to blow down. There are exceptions, of course, and I am referring specifically to introductory courses for the non-major. Many high schools don't teach evolution at all due to pressure from the creationists/ID people. And that is why this article so completely goofs.
HEADLINE: People who use their thumbs more are able to use their thumbs better! Scientists are baffeled because of the "geek" tie in. There might be link between this and runners who run alot can run better. News at 11.
...people who use their thumbs more often have better coordination with their thumbs.
Can anyone say "slow news day" ?
Tomorrow on slashdot:
"People who type a lot don't even have to look at the keys"
"Study discovers that engineers better at factoring quadratic equations than grocery clerks"
"Musicians who practice more often are better musicians"
Robotiq.com is heavily tested on animals
Yes, and violinists are a bunch of wrist mutants, using their wrist more dexterously than non-violinists.
In other news, body-building causes physical mutations! Body builders have been observed with muscles far more voluminous than those of non-body builders, a clear case of physical mutations.
In related news, train track cause physical mutations! Many children living near train tracks have been observed exhibiting a lack of lower apendages! The advance of mechanical transportation having rendered the function of legs as a primary locomotive means useless, the legs of some people are falling off in an incredible example of physical mutations!
Other mutations in recent history include the apparition of a new human tissue composed of a polymer envelopped filled with either silicon or a saline solution in the region of Los Angeles. These mutations are thought to be cause by the proximity of large amounts of cellulose films used in movie production. The difference in content of these new physical mutations are thought to be two separate evolutionary branches. Scientists expect the saline variant to be the more sucessfull evolutionary track.
You can't take the sky from me...
Okay, as much as they fucked up with the whole "mutation" thing, you can't say that their refusal to use the word "terrorist" is not noble, at least within the context of journalism.
Reuter's editorial policy is that they will never use the term "terrorist" or "freedom fighter" or whatever, unless they are quoting. The goal is to be objective, and since Reuters is an international news service, they cannot afford to be US-centric or centered on the terminology of any nation.
Remember, one person's terrorist is another person's freedom-fighter. The word terrorist is very loaded. Reclaim The Streets! parties have been labelled terrorists simply for dancing in the streets. The French resistance against the Nazis was also called terrorism. It would be unethical, in the context of objective journalism, to use any government's definition of terrorism, so Reuters simply refuses to use the term, unless they are quoting.
Now, honestly, is that so bad?
(I do agree that journalism can never be truly objective, which is why I support media projects like the Independant Media Center, which wear their bias on their sleeves, but that's a debate for another day)
Back in the NES days I would use my index and middle fingers for the b and a buttons, the genesis controller was designed so I could do the same. But once shoulder buttons started to be on all controllers, from the SNES onwards, I couldnt pull that off. Now that the GBA has shoulder buttons, I cant think of a game system that you can reasonably use all the buttons with out using your thumb as the main button presser
"My head hurts, My feet stink, and I dont love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett
Thumbs are one of the major evolutionary factors that are responsible for the state in which humankind is now.
:-)
The opposing thumb for handling tools, the brain and the upright walk.... So the fact that ppl excessively use their thumbs could be -if you look at it from another perspective- referred to evolution. Though the term 'mutation' is rather wrong here.
As long as we'll use keyboard we won't end up using just our opposing thumbs
0 001 11 1
Well, as a dozen people have already pointed out, it's not a mutation. I suppose over generations, if the ability to quickly dial their social network members phone #s or impress potential mates with their Nintendo ability, we might see some evolutionary selection for this terrific thumbness, but it's gonna take a while.
Another, some what related idea: classic video gamers have often speculated about whether young people are now more dexterous with their left hand than they would be otherwise, given the new standard of having the primary joypad or stick be used by the left hand. This started, more or less, with the NES; most other systems were right handed (atari 2600) or ambidexterous (Intellivision, Colecovision, many video games)
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
Lamarckian inheritance lives!
CmdrTaco writes: "An anonymous reader writes 'Reuters writes: "The use of gadgets such as mobile phones and GameBoys has caused a physical mutation in young people's hands. The use of the thumb is a deviation from the use of the index finger..."'"
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
it only questions evolution if you are a journalist looking for a "shock value" or "catch phrase" and dont have enough brainpower to even understand what he writes about.
ruters is far from a accurate news source as the national enquirer is. Be sure to re-read the article and you will understand that using something you already have and had for the past 90,000,000,000,000,000 generations (- exaggeration.. I know... I'm trying to make a point in ruter's journalistic style) is not evolving. What about people that have no arms and can pick up things with their feet? (I can and I have arms+hands) what amazing evolution did they encounter? did they magically grow toes? OMG!!! I have toes!!!!
nope, not evolution. not by any stretch of anyone's mind.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
My research shows I've become very adept at casting spells in video games.
Oh, and sorry about turning any readers into a newt, this morning, I'm still working on that one.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I know most left-handed individuals feel that many standard tools are awkward to use because of some subtle biases towards the right-handed majority. E.g., think about the standard manual can opener.
Will the "thumb users" find standard objects equally awkward to use? What about after some thumb-based tools have become widely available (e.g., I could imagine swapping out a standard keyboard for a thumbboard), since that will provide less exposure to finger-based devices?
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
2. An alteration or change, as in nature, form, or quality.
Why don't you go look up "connotation" and "denotation" in your fancy computer dictionary too, cut and paste boy.
P.S. you forgot to paste entries 3 (genetics) and 4 (linguistics).
-Kevin
If this is a mutation, then by simple
rules of evolutionary biology, it must mean
that people who play a lot of video games have a better chance of having offspring!
This translates to a lot of geeks getting laid!
I just *knew* my PS2 would get me chicks!
Well, far be it for me, a biochemistry student, to argue with a dictionary that gives an overall definition of each word, but... you're wrong.
Mutation is a genetic alteration at the cellular level; what these people are doing is training their bodies, in this case, their thumbs, in such a way that they have better control. You could technically paint with your toes as well (many people do it) but it's not a mutation.
A mutation is a random alteration of one or more chromosomes in the nucleus of the cell resulting in different productions/responses.
Nor is the parent of your comment correct, either; a mutation does NOT have to be in the germ line cells in order to be a mutation (in which case the mutation would be transmitted to offspring). Mutations can occur in standard mitotic cells and never be passed to offspring; Lemarkian inheritance has nothing to do with anything, but especially not with mitotic cells. I think we all know that a 'mutation' for the dexterity of the thumb is not occuring in the 'balls' of the 'gentlemen' who use technology and then father offspring.
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) :
Mutation \Mu*ta"tion\, n. [L. mutatio, fr. mutare to change: cf. F. mutation. See Mutable.]
Change; alteration, either in form or qualities.
The vicissitude or mutations in the superior globe are no fit matter for this present argument. --Bacon.
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) :
Mutation \Mu*ta"tion\, n.
1. (Biol.) Gradual definitely tending variation, such as may be observed in a group of organisms in the fossils of successive geological levels.
2. (Biol.)
(a) As now employed (first by de Vries), a sudden variation (the offspring differing from its parents in some well-marked character or characters) as distinguished from a gradual variations in which the new characters become fully developed only in the course of many generations. The occurrence of mutations, and the hereditary transmission, under some conditions, of the characters so appearing, are well-established facts; whether the process has played an important part in the evolution of the existing species and other groups of organisms is a disputed question.
(b) The result of the above process; a suddenly produced variation.
From WordNet (r) 1.6 :
mutation
n 1: an organism that has characteristics resulting from chromosomal alteration [syn: mutant, sport]
2: the process or event of mutating
Free Mac Mini
Does this mean playing Dance Dance Revolution will mutate me into a skilled martial artist?
They never said there was a genetic mutation. Their use of the word was perfectly correct.
Mutation
1. The act or process of being altered or changed.
2. An alteration or change, as in nature, form, or quality.
3. Genetics.
1. A change of the DNA sequence within a gene or chromosome of an organism resulting in the creation of a new character or trait not found in the parental type.
2. The process by which such a change occurs in a chromosome, either through an alteration in the nucleotide sequence of the DNA coding for a gene or through a change in the physical arrangement of a chromosome.
3. A mutant.
4. Linguistics. The change that is caused in a sound by its assimilation to another sound, such as umlaut.
This strikes me as really being just a matter of practice and conditioning. As has been pointed out in many of the posts above, a musician has not only learned what to press/move to come up with certain notes, they've developed a certain "muscle-memory" that allows them to hit notes without really thinking about it.
Same thing applies to any twitch-type game - the player learns the right keypress combinations through highly repetitive actions. Eventually, they don't think "Left, Left, A, C, A, B, Up" but rather they think "I need to use a whirling dragon kick here."
I'm a touch typist and the same thing applies...
One other example of what Reuters would incorrectly call mutation that I haven't seen here would involve the ability of those born without arms to use their feet almost as well as many of us use our hands. I remember seeing a show about that many years ago and was fascinated by it. I decided that if they could use their feet, then I could certainly teach myself to write with my left hand. It didn't work too well, though.
My parents are very intimidated by their computer and are constantly calling me for tech support... I got a Vic 20 when I was 12 and never learned that fear... just a different kind of muscle memory I suppose. They don't want to experiment because they're still unfamiliar with the computer and don't know what will and won't cause problems. I think it's just practice...
Slashdot comments... splitting hairs since 1997.
Its called, building muscle!
Yes, you can build your muscles anywhere else in your body and its not mutation, body builders build up and they arent called mutants, of course someone who uses their thumbs alittle more than average, has somehow had a genetic mutation and all their childrens thumbs will grow in the same way.
lol
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
does this mean the phrase "all thumbs" is now a compliment?
Because no one knows what controls evolution, and saying the mysterious forces of nature control it, is as silly as saying the universe was created by a random big bang.
Nothing is random, if logic and science teaches you anything, thats what you learn first.
Second nothing is absolute, meaning nothing is for sure.
Third if its proven our actions control revolution, its saying we with our brains control our own evolution, so does this mean monks will be the most evolved because they spend their lives trying to master mind over matter?
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Thank god someone finally went public with this.
For years now, I've noticed myself using my thumbs for everything: opening doors, eating, picking things up, and almost everything I use my hands for.
I've hid my hands in shame for so long now, thinking I was a freak. At least now I can take the mittens off... ~sniff~
I really like your comment, and if I had five moderation points I would give them all to you.
I believe that journalism is never objective, and that much of the best groundbreaking journalism is honestly partisan.
Consider that many of the reporters in a given area who attempt to cover both sides are stuck in a capital city listening to spokespeople. A war correspondent who covers the force of one side will have much more insight into that limited aspect of the conflict.
I see each news as a piece - when I write an article it's a "piece.." I put the pieces together, attempting to triangulate for various kinds of bias, when I read the news.
Goat sex free since 2001
WTWF (World Thumb Wrestling Federation) Announcer: So how does it feel to be thumb of tech-kid of this current generation?
Hulk Thumb: I am the fastest, meanest, fight'n machine in the world. Thumbs in the old days might have been tougher and suntaned, with their hosts playing outside for amusement... But I, as the top thumb wrestler in this new day, I say that thumbs like me would have beat down all those old thumbs. I mean, during my sparring matches, my host doesn't even autofire! I use one of my moves, the 'Spastic Attack,' to pummel my training partner, Mr. A button.
WTWF: So are you challenging any and all older thumbs to a match?
Hulk: Gene, what did I say. I will destroy all comers. I am so agile, so powerful, that no one can avoid my pin.
0- Eamonman Proud member of DNRC
"Nyah, nyah. My thumb is more opposable than yours."
Kevin Fox
I guess this explains why I can't play with any game pad for more than a minute without feeling like my thumb is going to break off. The young'uns have adapted to the abuse.
'Course, back in my day, I used to get a recurring blister on my right middle finger, thanks to the wear and tear caused by the old Midway joysticks.
--- Work, worry, consume, die. It's a wonderful life. -- Bill Griffith
All your fingers do with the mouse is press down every time you click. No dexterity is involved for them. If the mouse develops anything it would be the dexterity of the wrist.
Tim
Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
I would generally call what they're describing "practice." It's not a mutation. Is it a mutation when people who normally bat right handed learn to bat left?
Ignoring the nonsensical use of "mutation"... I've noticed that little kids use their thumbs like adults use their forefingers. But the current crop of kids are the first generation that grew up with buttons on EVERYTHING, and were introduced to it right out of the crib. How many kids nowadays have ever seen a rotary dial telephone?
I think it's the natural effect of a transition from gadgets where the forefinger or a thumb-and-fingers grip was the reasonable choice (such as rotary phone dials and rotary controls on TVs, stoves, etc) to gadgets that are button-driven, so any digit will do the job.
If you watch toddlers, you'll notice they try to press buttons with their thumbs far more often than they try to press them with an index finger. To a toddler, everything is for gripping (not for poking) so the gripping member (the thumb) is the natural choice.
If you grow up with buttons on every gadget in the house, it's likely that you'll continue to use your thumb, rather than getting retrained to use an index finger (as getting your thumb damnear ripped off by a phone's rotary dial will enforce in a hurry).
This is no different from the sort of retraining that happens with any interface transition. It just happens to coincide with a physical action that comes more naturally to little kids, hence is easy to continue doing as they grow up.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
The QWERTY keyboard has also changed the priorities humans place on which fingers to use. 200 years ago we held teacups with our thumb and index finger; now we are much more likely to use the middle finger as well. Anybody remember Pac-Man Elbow? 2600 Joystick Blister?
Not really, when you consider a mutation it happens in the next generation (unlike cancer). A mutation in a single cell in the hand will not cause the physical structure to change. The continued use of it in a particular way will cause the physical structure to change but it will not be passed on to future generations.
In case you wanted to know, cells that eventually go on to become sperm and eggs are actually segregated early in the embryonic stage. Thus, any genetic changes that happen to a person during their life will not be passed on to the next generation.
internet like monkeys'
It has been discovered that it isnow makes it 30% harder for the youth of today to thumb their nozes at other countries, for the same reason as the above article. Does this mean that gameboys are leading to world peace? Watch tonight at 11 as well reveal the amazing fact that most people who can talk are, in fact, alive!
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
I know this is getting off-topic, but it's something I just wanted to mention. The Original Article for this story makes the quote:
'The mobile is fast becoming an essential prop in the social life of 20-year-olds,' she said. 'It has even become part of their mating display, with young men trying to impress women with the advanced technology of their phones.'
Everywhere I look, there are these young guys who hardly can't afford to eat because they spent all their money on clothing, cars, loud stereos, and mobile phones... flashy stuff, in other words. Material posessions to give the impression to the world that they're rich, successful, and smart. Every talk to one of them? They are dumb as rocks. They seem to be slaves to their self-image. And I'm not talking about the occasional paycheck-waster; where I'm currently living, this demographic accounts for something like 80% of the population of 18-25 year old males.
Given a figure like that, it shouldn't seem so out of the ordinary to me, but it does. Maybe it's because I'm perfectly happy with my '92 Mercury Topaz. Or that I don't feel I need/want a cellphone. Or because I haven't bought a thread of clothing in a year and a half.
I've attributed much of this to being a mating ritual, but (and I could be wrong here) I don't believe my mating habits are the same as these guys. I don't feel the need to impress anyone, female or otherwise. If they do happen to be impressed with me then great. But I'm not going to make a conscious effort to be attractive. (In my mind, the effort is usually not worth the gain.) It should be noted that I am in fact engaged, though I assume my fiance did not say "yes," due to my sexy Mercury Topaz.
The older generation has said for years that the younger generation is all thumbs. This research now proves it.
I have big hands and I've noticed that whenever using a gadget I use the ball of my thumb joint to push the buttons. ie, a hard spot at the first knuckle rather than the end of the thumb. It has gotton harder and more pronounced over the years (callused (sp)?) For instance on a camera with buttons on the back, I use the thumb joint to push the button. If I used the thumbtip I would probably mash two buttons by mistake.
Anybody else use their thumb this way? I haven't really thought about it until reading this story. Maybe I'm just a mutant.
Also the end of my thumb can bend 90 degrees in either direction.. apparently this isn't common either.
One thing - I grew up in the 1980s, using joystick input devices for computer games. I used the stick with my right hand.
Even keyboard-weenies use the cursor keys, which are usually on the right!
These days, all the games consoles have joypads, with the directional controller pad on the left.
In a species where 90% of the population is right-handed, why are joypad d-pads on the left?
Is it the same reason as those annoying arcade machine joysticks, a cheap-ass way to make the game last a bit longer by making it harder to play for most of the population?
Choice of masters is not freedom.
There actually IS a phenomenon where organs or limbs which are used more often during growth actually become larger to handle increased demand. It is not, however, evolution, and does not pass to the next generation. Anyone know what it's called?
I guess that this means that the gamers of today will be the uber-hitchhikers of tomorrow. And furthermore, it makes you pity any kids whose parents talked them out of masturbation...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
You can find the exact text of the original "research", such as it is, here. Google dwells in the sky and rules us.
The thing is a glossy advertising sheet which motorala purchased - NOT a research paper. The word "Data" DOES NOT EVEN APPEAR. Likewise, the words power, mean and measurement, and the letter n, are nowhere used in any statistical sense. The "research" seems to involve no hard numbers WHATSOEVER. The report has no references, although the author has peppered it with the names of her friends, along with vague, sweeping claims about the results of their "research" (if you can find evidence anywhere of where this supposed work was reported, by all means, post!) If there was ever any primary data associated with this report, it is not here and I cannot find it, although Dr. Plant includes a dozen glossy photographs she took herself. Dr. Sophie Plant, the author of the article, has quit her job at the University of Warwick's cybernetic culture research unit (a fact reuters also glosses over) in order, supposedly, to write full time.
Incidentally, the cybernetic culture research unit, established by Dr. Sadie Plant (author of the report), seems to do a lot of, yes I will keep the quotes, "research" into the experiences of people abducted by UFOs. Their homepage reads like the ravings of a new age schizophrenic.
This paper is absolute vapor; even in the field of Sociology is stands out for it's lack of substance.
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
Here is a discussion of different definitions of terrorism. Whatever definition you accept, it is a highly charged and ambiguous word. This page goes deeper into the subject and contains a fascinating interview snippet with a State Department official. While seeming to have a clear definition of terrorism, the official evades questions and ultimately states, "I do not think it will be productive to get into a description of the various terms and conditions under which we are going to define an act by the PLO as terrorism."
In other words, the US reserves the right to define terrorism as it goes. I can't blame Reuters for steering clear of this word.
The reason there are no animals with tank treads is that there are no animals with wheels. The reason there are no animals with wheels is that the axle of the wheel has to be disconnected from the body of the animal. Therefore, it would not get any nutrients to grow. Additionally, muscular motion is linear, while wheel motion is rotational. If you already have the 'legs' that are going to turn the wheels, why add wheels? Third, small wheels are almost worthless in almost all natural terrain (true to a lesser extent for tank treads). Just think of a matchbox car on the lawn. Legs are more stable and versatile in uneven terrain. I think the irreducable complexity of tank treads on animals is pretty far don on the list of reasons they don't exist.
Most claims of irreducable complexity are just failures of imagination, anyway.
__
Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
"Then where did the aliens come from?"
Duh, Outer Space.
graspee
>Remember, one person's terrorist is another
>person's freedom-fighter
Whose freedom was being fought for when the airliners flew into the World Trade Center?
I keep hearing this little soundbite, and nobody has been able to answer that question.
-l
Well the real root of the word is latin.
Mutatus (noun)- a change or alteration.
So don't go giving them C14th dudes too much credit- they were just a bunch of IP freeloaders.
"Dude, I got some great new latin words on Kazaa!"
"Cool- let me copy them too. 'Mutatus'- woah, wicked"
graspee
"Nothing CAUSES mutations"
Phew, no cancer for me then. Where's my smokes ?
graspee
I think Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles altered the general perception of the word mutation a bit. All kidding aside, I can imagine a 20 year old today having a different idea about it than the 40 year old who wrote this article.
"Derp de derp."
It's not just about muscles. Dexterity is effected as much by brain development as is by muscle excersize. This isn't evolution or excersize. The brain has been trained since birth to improve and fine-tune it's sensory perceptions of the thumbs. Although this study shows that the thumb is more useful to those who grew up on video games, I personally show the other side of the coin: I didn't grow up on consoles. I grew up on computers. My 8 fingers are easily 100 times more dextrous than my thumbs. My right thumb is good at hitting the spacebar; my left being all but useless. It merely follows me around.
I've been able to type 80wpm since I was 9 and I doubt that this will change. In retrospect, my reliance on computers is a good reason why my handwriting is so illegible.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
you can't say that their refusal to use the word "terrorist" is not noble, at least within the context of journalism.
Oh, yeah, there was at least one daycare center at WTC. Still think this wasn't terrorism, fuckface?
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
At best this is a learned response. It is definitely NOT a mutation. I suppost "people learn to use thums more" is not as headline grabbing as "video games cause mutation". Junk science and junk journalism.
I agree it was exactly like the terrorism carried out in Afghanistan by the US government
The Afghanistani government had almost a month to hand over the terrorists and disband the terrorist training camps, to head off coalition action. They did neither. And I'm still waiting for the first shred of evidence that USA delberately targetted civilians, whereas terrorists nearly always do so.
The palestinians are the fathers and mothers of terrorism. Thier policies are the direct cause of their problems. They had the best chance they could ever expect to resolve their issues, get a Palestinian state, get Israel to withdraw from 97% of the land they took (in self-defense) in '67 - and they turned it down. Why? Because that agreeement still would have left an Israel in existence, which is against the PLO charter and not tolerable to the Palestinians. It's a same their people pay for the evil of their leaders, but it IS their leaders who have borught this on them.
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
>> It's a same their people pay for the evil of their leaders, but it IS their leaders who have borught this on them.
Funny. That seems to be Bin Laden's attitude as well.
Bin Laden sees himself as fighting against, amongst other things:
American's support of the Israeli occupation of Palestine
Israel's war of terror against Palestinian civilians
America's military occupation of Saudi Arabia
Funny. That seems to be Bin Laden's attitude as well.
Your attempts to lend legitimacy to Bin Laden are pathetic. If you can't see the difference, I'm glad I don't have to deal with you.
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
I notice, by the way, that you don't name any of these textbooks you claim are so wrong. Not that it would make much difference - you're falling into the logical trap of believing "(if X then Y) and (not X)" means "not Y". Whether or not any given textbook says that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny or whether any particular supporter of evolutionary theory was dishonest proves nothing about the theory. Think about it this way: if you're lying, does that mean evolution must be true?
Okay, examples for Haekel's embryos: Biggs, Kapicka, Lundgren, "Biology, the dynamics of life", 1998, ISBN 0028254317. Also Futuyama, "Evolutionary Biology", 1998, ISBN 0878931899. And Guttman, "Biology", 1999, ISBN 0697223663. And Miller & Levine,"Biology", 2000, ISBN 013334362659.
There are more but I think that makes the point rather clearly. Your statement is not borne out by the facts - the above and other textbooks are teaching this and other lies every year. As long as lies like this are being taught, what can you expect people who find out the "proofs" they were taught are lies to believe after the exposing of the falsehoods?
Got Wisdom?
Apparently, you're oblivious to the irony of your comments so I'll spell it out for you.
Your "Afghanis must pay the price for their leaders' actions" attitude is EXACTLY the same as Bin Laden's "Americans must pay the price for their leaders' actions" attitude.
Since Bin Laden's attitude is obviously illegitimate, maybe you should reconsider your own and realize that innocent people, Afghani or American, should never "pay the price" for their leaders' actions.
An outfit that intentionally targets civilians is miles away from one that goes after combatants but also hits civilians, as an unintended consequence, as inevitably happens. The first are scum who are to be eliminated without mercy or regret. The second is anyone who ever fought a war.
To maintain that these are equivalent is idiocy.
And sometimes war is inevitable. Was the world to just bend over to the Nazis, because if we killed any German civilians while fighting the Nazis, we would be "as bad as them"? NONSENSE. Chamberlain showed the wrong way to deal that ilk; Churchill showed the right way.
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody