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How Much Are You Paying For A Nameplate?
Matey-O writes: "I realize most of you built your systems youself (with mad overclocking style) but if you've purchased a fully built system receintly from Compaq, Dell, HP or Apple, you may have a computer built by Quanta, a very quiet, very successful Taiwanese manufacturing company. NY times article here." (This is true at least of notebooks.)
Having run tools like dmidecode across a lot of systems the laptop market definitely has a lot of rebadging going on. Taking apart other devices shows its nothing new. HP printers are full of canon parts, HP's early digital cameras are Konica, Dell laptops don't all seem to be made by Dell. Most vendors desktops at the lower end are handled by big .tw build to order houses.
Its not cost effective to run a computing hardware company in the USA
Anyone have an alternate link?
With a major brand name, you're paying for marketing and advertising, as well as the product. If a brand name is good enough to gain a reputation by word-of-mouth alone, it's likely to be true, as negative criticism spreads twice as fat as positive.
Now, if they only made desktops...
If I weren't nailed to the penis, I'd be pushing up the daisies!
From what I read in the article, it sounds like they really only supply laptops for these companies.
The article also mentions some other interesting things, such as how Dell's success with notebooks depends on Quanta's efficiency in production.
I would like to point out that the article states that Dell popularized the concept of just-in-time manufacturing. Maybe in the realm of computers, but they've been doing that elsewhere (such as the auto industry) for many many years.
What?
I wanted to build my own, but you just can't find all the parts for a two-node GS320 cluster on pricewatch.
I used to build systems for friends and family by going to the computer shows. The downside was always having to support software issues, but I iused to make some good cash from it.
I now turn them away and tell them to buy from Gateway or Dell instead - a Gateway can be had now for as little as 600.00 US complete. My profit margin would be very slim having to build it myself.
The only downside I see is that the namebrands tend to have some hardware issues if you try to change the OS from whatever they ship with. Seems as if the sound card/ video card is proprietary in some fasion, and even switching from the Millenium OS to Win 98 can be a chore since the manufacturers don't supply drivers for the other equiptment.
The upside is, I can refer them to name brand tech support and go back to gaming instead of sitting on a phone for 2 hours fixing a Microsoft bug.
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
Here is their "English" website.
http://www.quantatw.com/edefault.htm
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
When Dell first started using Quanta (they also used Compal MoBo's) in laptops in 1998, they got to specify the quality and construction of the product. You might find the same boards in a Time PC or a Tiny PC, but I guarantee that the Dell's will have a better mean time between failures (MBF).
This had some interesting side-effects. It also meant that some strange side-effects occurred. For instance in mid-1999, you had HP and Dell machines with interchangeable components as they were both based on Quanta decks. This actiually proved useful.
So and OEM behind laptops? Bring 'em on! All we need is for them to sell components to the public and self-built laptops aren't that far away.
When I have a problem with a Dell box, I get a replacement the same day (or next, depending on how much cash flow we had when we purchased it) without excuses or hoofing it over to a local vendor. Could I save some money by hooking up with an importer who brought the same laptops over sans nameplate? Sure, but as many import shops as I've seen go under in the last few years, I'd be a complete idiot.
What's your damage, Heather?
One of the other big names is Compal.
Read this for more information and specific model numbers.
I just bought a "Toshiba 3005" from them, and since they don't come default operating systems I didn't have to may the M$ tax and get an extra battery instead.
--------
It's OK to be social, just don't tell anyone about it.
I don't know the situation in the US or elsware but in Jamaica the #1 selling desktop by a huge margin is Dell. They actually have a market share in the 50% region. Next in line is Compaq at about 10% followed by all the local white box clones which share most of what's left.
Why the wide difference? Dell has an agreement with a local company to honor the Dell onsite warranty. This means that when your system goes down someone comes to your house with a spare part (after you talk to tech support on one of a very few 1-800 numbers which is free from Jamaica).
IBM, Gateway and most clones don't give you that so if you need that level of support you haven't really got a choice.
I still buy parts and asemble for 70% of the cost and just deal with the local wholesaler for the waranty on each individual part.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
While the first statement seems very sound and realistic the last seams a little short-sighted.
The "killer app" to convert desktop users to notebook users after the plateau is not software. It is the "Internet anyware", wireless, portable, comunications terminal that is a laptop. PDA's are convenient and do their job, ie. quick basic computing on the go. People want portability and that is the notebooks "killer app".
The story, no registration required.
And before someone tries to scold me for this again: This is from a partnership that NYT has with Asahi.com, and it adds Asahi.com's ads to the page. Instead of "paying" with your registration, you're "paying" with the act of barely glancing at Asahi.com's ads for a split second before moving on to the actual story. And the New York Times seems to be fine with it, because they set the whole thing up.
"Mr. Lam runs more than just a crack assembly line. Quanta employs a sophisticated design team, with some of the most talented and best-paid engineers in Taiwan, who regularly suggest ways to improve the products of their customers."
a media spin for them to try to improve their stock prices.
Well I might, but only if I can't find any paint to watch drying or some nice lush grass growing.
Lets be honest , you're not "building" a computer , you're slotting bits together and
screwing in some screws. To really build your own machine you'd first need to get a degree
in electronic engineering and then get down to
designing your own motherboard and work from there.
Not so much as the nameplate. When that laptop's screen fries prematurely, if I buy my laptop from Joe Schmoe's laptop company, there's no guarantee that he's going to be around to fix it - and they aren't very cheap (or practical) to replace yourself, unlike desktop PC's.
You are, however, paying for the nameplate if you're buying a basic PC and can buy the same (warranted) parts elsewhere... But sometimes it's cheaper to just let Dell worry about the individual part warranties and be able to just get an entire system overnighted to you in the event of a failure.
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
You are looking at the future of manufacturing. This business model is growing incredibly fast. To see why look at the XBox process. MS decided they wanted a piece of the console pie, so they got together with a firm that specializes in high tech manufacturing. MS is a company designed around producing software, that is what they do most efficiently. They know that they will not be able to build and run physical factories with the efficiency of a manufacturing company. These specialized manufacturers are amazing. I read in Wired about how the company doing the XBox was in on the design process and they were cutting costs and production times left and right from MS's original design. I understand that the Mexican plant they are using has trucks coming with parts and leaving with product every five mins. and planes taking off and landing at an airport (which they negotiated to be build) every 15 to 20 mins. That's a degree of efficiency MS could never reach. Simply businesses are specializing more to reach peak economic efficacy. BTW Sorry for the terrible structure of this paragraph, I'm at work.. Not much time.
Business News and Resources: www.usasource.net
Just look at the serial number. If it starts with QT, it was made by Quanta.
The implications for the US are interesting. The removal of manufascturing jobs from the US means there are less decent paying jobs in the US, tightening the Job Market.
There are also national security issues, especially in Tiawan, known not only for earthquakes, but for the proximity to a neighbor to the west who is looking forwood to the day when they can regain control of the island. To have a major center of US technology manufacture right next to a major potential enemy is not a smart strategy.
This is part of a much bigger picture, which includes the HB-1 visas, etc. All of which does not bode well for American technology workers in the long term.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Mod Parent up (Score 5: Informative)
The contents of this message have been doubly encrypted by ROT13
http://www.quantatw.com/edefault.htm It is so-called 'english' version. In fact, it is all in those ie-rogliphs, but navigation in really in latin1 alphabet, which makes things not-so-nasty.
I own an Omnibook 6000 (HP) and the only thing manufactured by HP are the casing and the nametag, but I'm not even sure about that. But I do know that it must be a really expensive nametag, since, as a student, I got mine for almost 50% off, and even then it cost as much as other "regular" laptops (8 months ago). *ouch* The hard drive is Hitachi, ethernet by 3Com, sound card by ESS, Intel CPU, Touch pad by Synaptics, Sanyo battery, Toshiba DVD drive, ATI graphics card... not sure about RAM & MoBo though.
I'm also using Apple Pro Keyboard. Works great with PCs. Just a few days ago I had to take it apart to clean it, since dust collecting inside is visible through the transparant plastic it is made of. That was when I discovered that the insides of APK are manufactured by Mitsumi, which is otherwise known as manufacturer of the cheapest components for PCs. While APK does look great and it does have 2 USB ports on it, this still does not make up for almost 12x price increase.
A geek can throw together his own system. For many businesses or non-geeks, they wan't some sort of support system in place. Dell has people who will come to your house and fix your computer for you which (I think) is free for the first year.
I think thats a big part of what people pay for, even if the name-brand didnt build it; They will stand by it (until the warrentee runs out).
Quanta also built the Netpliance I-Opener and the Gateway Connected touchpad. Both of which run QNX. Theres a hacking group that stays up to date on various projects on the message boards here. Im not sure what else Quanta has built, but the I-Opener is really built like a tank.
There is no spork.
If I were them, I'd be glad I wasn't getting blamed for mistakes like this:
http://macosrumors.com/i/offsetapple.jpg
<?php while ($self != "asleep") { $sheep_count++; } ?>
If these brand names withdraw the usual and costly OEM software bloat in favor of CL2 memory.
Win2k/XP and Linux do benefit from lower latency DRAM (Linux does even more with latency patches).
OEM's, please wake up! Win9x time is over. Give us better memory bandwidth and latency, nor just more MB's of DRAM.
IBM notebooks....... I work with an IBM business partner....some are made by Quanta
I worked for Dell, specifically in the Latitude Home / Small Business division, back in 1998 and was shown all the different models on the market released by various OEMs. Then I was given a spreadsheet with system specs which included a column for 'manufacturer' - Quanta and a couple of other names were listed.
:)
Working with the latest laptops, hardware still in beta testing, helped me understand the relationship Dell had with the Taiwanese manufacturer. Dell engineers worked very closely with the engineers on the other side of the world, and we changed specifications when necessary. This is, of course, to be expected - hopefully an OEM doesn't just buy a few hundred thousand laptops without testing them first
One item we changed comes to mind immediately - the rubber feet on Inspiron 7000's were originally made of a material that marked nearly every surface we set them down on. Many people had multiple black spots and marks where the systems sat on their desk. Ick.
Another important matter is support - some people might know that the same company makes systems for multiple OEMs and might even release systems under their own name with the same specifications, but I'll take the system with OEM hardware support that rocks - every support system might have glitches, but after working in Dell's support division, and using them in my current position for three years, I'd prefer to stick with them. I won't say no one is better, or dell never screws up, but they support their product well, very well, in my opinion. Overnight parts when available, Complete Care for LCD breakage and spills that can turn in a system into a paperweight very quickly.
And as far as OEM designs go, the Latitude base framework is hard to beat - there are perhaps a dozen models with interchangeable batteries, optical drives, floppies, power supplies, etc. Supporting them in the office is pretty simple - even if you've been buying the newest models for three years you can use the same spare parts for each as parts wear out. Every office has the same stack of power supplies - sales dorks always leave home without them. Support staff in each office has a very common experience. I don't know of another OEM, perhaps Sony, with such similarity between models. If there are, hey, hit reply.
I fished a IBM PS/1 from the garbage the other day. Took off the badge and glued it to my generic case, the square recess where the 'Intel Inside' sticker goes usually.
youself, muhself, etc.
Make up some interesting stuff already!
I hate that word!
Nothing makes you sound more like a lame Middle School kid....
About $5.00 . Bought one for each of my computers.
www.linuxjewellery.com
don't break the news to these people.
Just wondering if I can circumvent the big names altogether. I don't need a warranty or an OS if I can save some serious cash.
In addition to the name plate, you are also paying for support. I doubt that the service is as good when you buy computers direct from the manufacturer at a discounted price. Laptops, in particular, tend to break and usually cannot be fixed by swapping out parts, like a desktop system. I've had to return my DELL Inspiron 7K two times (once for a keyboard problem and once for a display problem). In both cases my laptop was returned to me in two days. For desktop systems, the support is not important to me as I can fix 'em myself.
Did you really think that the big "manufactures" manufacture all their stuff? I wouldn't be surpriced if some items only link with the logo on front, would be the logo. Sometimes these boxes are designed and manufactured somewhere else. Quality assurance and testing go on in-house (If only to preserve brand-name), but design, assembly, packaging, testing and shipping is handled by sub-contractors.
Is this news?
Quanta also manufactured the Netpliance iopener "Internet appliance." They are a very big force in the laptop market, as the article points out.
Is that there is not any useable form-factor standard such as there have been for Desktops. I can't hop over to my favorite online parts vendor and grab a case, mobo and cpu. I think that if users were enabled to build their own laptops, computer distribution companies such as HP, Compaq, etc would be held to a slightly higher expectation.
You know, a lot of BTO Powerbooks are shipped direct from Taiwan to the person who ordered it.....Hmm, I wonder what it would take to cut out Dell and "Be [really] DIRECT?"
What exchange is this company's stock listed on if any? Does anyone know the ticker? Thank you.
easy as pie. cheers to the guy who created it
No, I that part I don't remember. You mind telling me WHICH companies "OEM parts"?
The original IBM PC we basically tore apart. We went through all of the drawings of the ORIGINAL IBM PC and there wasn't anything like it. It appears that the color and monochrome boards MAY have originally started out as one beastie - albeit a VERY BIG beastie.
Now perhaps we are talking about different "first IBM box", but considering the various ports on the puppy (remember the cassette port? Oh, the fuss that was made when they removed that on the XT's! [grin]).
Perhaps you are confusing the PC with Trash-80 which INDEED was hacked from various OEM parts.
Am I showing my age yet?
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
Here's a businessweek article on Quanta : http://www.quantatw.com/company/quanta/Quanta%20Ed u%20Fundation/enews1.htm
... whatever that means.
They sound like a contract manufacturer to me. But the founder claims that they're not a contract manufacturer, but a "flexible manufacturer"
I got mine from Scotgold over in the UK.
I just emailed them a GIF image representing the logo I wanted.
I know, I know it's offtopic, but it's the first thing that popped in my head when I read the headline.
XJS*C4JDBQADN1.NSBN3*2IDNEN*GTUBE-STANDARD-ANTI-U
This has been going on already for decades where everything from home appliances to all manner of consumer electronics to furniture and mattresses to auto parts. Why should we be surprised that this is happening with PCs?
I'm more curious about why people _don't_ realize this is happening when they think they're buying a fancy namebrand. That's why I tell everybody who asks me for computer purchase advice to GET A CLONE! Not only are you not paying for the label, but you're buying upgradeability that just isn't there in a Compaq, an IBM or a Dell.
Manufacturing outsourcing happens everywhere, not just in tech. Sure, electronics is a big business (that's why the Flextronics of the world do so well), and laptops are particularly ripe for outsourced manufacture, but other industries have products made for them.
The best comparable example I can give is the auto industry. Many car makers have alliances with one another - erstwhile competitors make each other's cars, sometimes in a straight re-badging, other times in a joint assembly line. here's a few "for instances":
Toyota jointly owns a plant with GM. It makes both the Toyota Corolla and the Chevy Prism. They're the same car with different trim. One factory, one car, two companies. Joint ownership.
Honda had no SUV on the boards when the SUV craze struck America, so they came up with the Honda Passport. It's an Isuzu Rodeo with a Honda badge. It's made in Isuzu's factory, and sold by Honda. A straight outsourcing deal.
Ford owns a great deal of Mazda (I'm not sure if they have full control or not). The Escort and Protege were identical - and the Mazda Navajo was just a Ford Explorer Sport. This is an example of two interlocked companies filling out their line together.
When tech manufacture is outsourced, the brand-name company can worry about the design, the feature set, and all the marketing. The manufacturer can worry about actually doing what's possible, and squeezing every possible cent of cost out of the build process. The marketing company then doesn't have to worry about owning expensive factories that depreciate, and the manufacturer can concentrate on building better, faster, and cheaper - with a variety of customers and products that avoids idle plants and workers as best as possible.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
In my case, Dell screwed up pretty bad with my Inspirion and took 4 months to resolve the hardware problem and then sent the repaired unit to the wrong address the day before a three week trip. >8( Slightly better, but still unsatisfactory experience with the servers despite on site warantees.
One IBM Thinkpad I had required servicing and had almost 48 hour turn around (I called too late in the day to get 24hr). No "excuses or hoofing it over to a local vendor" That was sweet! High quality and/or low hassle is good.
However, given the high prices and low cannibalisation value of new computers, there's no way I'd buy a laptop, notebook, or server without a 3 year waranty and a reasonable probability that the company will still be around then.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
From this part of the Quanta Site.
The chairman announced openly that we are 7-11, the president is busy at the production line in daytime and comes to the R&D to burn the other end of the candle in the evening. We work day and night and night and day to overcome all odds with Quanta...
The market was still small when Quanta decided to develop portable computers, desktop PC was still the mainstream on the market. Apart from LCD and HDD, which are exclusive parts to portable computers, all other parts are the same to that of the desktop computer. The situation is like putting parts of an Infiniti Q30 into a Nissan Sentra. The difficulties at that time is understandable. However hard it was, Quanta's R&D history was started then.
"Do the best to realize your dreams"
As a conclusion, portable PC R&D is brain-consuming work, and many of our colleagues have had their hair turn gray. However, when we see our dreams come true, no one has any regrets and we just keep trying a new task.
Under the direction and insistence of bosses, Quanta's R&D has been running toward practicability, with some differences from others. Low cost and suitability for mass production have been the highest commands of R&D. With cooperation from world leading manufacturers, Quanta products have earned some credits and praises from world famous computer magazines. It is not only recognition of the R&D work, but also a drive for Quanta's efforts on sales achievements.
If R&D is the locomotive, we have been guiding Quanta through all odds over the last decade. We will never spare any time as long as the R&D work continues.
. . . is the same as the Dell Inspiron 5000/5000e.
And if you were to go on their web site, you will see that their `road map' is . . . well, a road map.
- Documention: Y'know, the dead-tree or online specs that in some cases read as if they were Babelfished from their native tongue and others with beautify lucid, illustrated, and well organized troves of data.
- Support: Who ya gonna call? Even if this is outsourced there's still some sort of coherent product issue / resolution process going on. Websites, call centers, tech notes, latest qualified drivers, etc. If the product is pooched better vendors will simply swap out the problem item.
- Brand Value: Braun doesn't make their own small electronics but folks buy the Braun name. Why? Because through whatever combination of Marketing / Quality Control programs consumers associate Braun products with good devices.
- R & D: They're not called Wintel without a reason. If the motherboard isn't made by Intel, or designed by Intel, or based on an Intel design then you've a rare beast. Even then the components are all about the same - this year's popular chips, or last years, or their knock-offs, all making PCs remarkably homogenous. Canon engines are in HP laser printers which sell far better then their Canon counterparts. Why? Large manufacturers do invest in making their variation somehow slightly "better" even if that only means supplying a better BIOS to the hardware manufacturer.
- Marketing: Hey, folks found them to buy didn't they? There are any number of great products sitting out there that languish without decent marketing. DEC, Novell and Polaroid are examples of companies that had great products and couldn't sell them worth a damn. Apple has good products and flogs them mercilessly to great effect. Take a lesson who is doing well and who is circling the drain or already gone.
- Product Line: Nobody wants to deal with ten vendors for similar products. Rather it is best to get some semblance of unified technology all under a single set of contracts. That means a vendor has to offer a full range of products even if they're not all necessarily completely built by them.
Buy on price, buy on specs, buy on brand name, all are foolish. There's a lot more to a PC then those qualities considered alone. For those all proud that they build their own PCs, well bully for you. How much time did you spend learning what components you wanted, from what vendors you wanted to buy, learning what is required to build a PC and how to go about it? Most folks don't want to invest their time but buy their computers off the shelf with all of the above already done for them.Build a computer, build a house, customize a car, they're all decisions with their own advantages & disadvantages. For the majority just buying the darn thing outright is the way to go.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
Since I am writing this from a notebook lab inside Compaq I have a unique insight into this topic. I cannot confirm, or deny, the story for obvious reasons but I will say there are several other vendors that do the same work. I know of one in Houston, one in Austin and I also know of 3 others in Taiwan. Hope I'm being vague enough. Buy Compaq!
It hasn't been worth it for me to put a machine together from scratch for years. I used to do it, but the cost of the parts was about as high as the machine itself. Also, I don't get the headaches involved when weird problems occurred.
Since I want to focus on coding, it didn't make sense for me anyway.
But I bought my last machine from a local shop. Got a very decent machine for about as much as I would have paid for a Dell, without the shipping charges. It only took 3 days for them to build and test it, as well. On top of that, the machine is fully upgradable. With a Dell or Compaq, upgrading is problematic, since the mobo is often specific to the chassis, and the video/sound/etc is built into the mobo.
I've been really happy with this box.
Got my laptop from Higrade, a UK based reseller of Asus boxes. Asus are well known for the mobos, but less so for their fully assembled products. Take a good look at the specs for the Higrade Notino 2200 (an Asus machine underneath). Basically, the spec is for a PC equivalent of an iBook, at a really competitive price.
Lines like this One of those clients, Dell, has prodded Quanta to move more of its production to mainland China, where labor and other costs are much lower. in the article are pretty worrying. Anyone who has read "No Logo" by Naomi Klein will tell you that the outsourcing of piecework like this to countries with bad human rights records increases the problem of sweatshop labour.
China in particular has a bad reputation for this sort of thing, abusing both its own people and those of nearby countries that it lays claim to (Tibet for instance). Companies like Quanta in the article are the "acceptable face" of this work. They hire subcontractors who in turn hire their own subcontractors, hiding the problem from their parent companies. However if Dell are asking Quanta to move production to China, I would speculate that they almost definitely know what the end result will be.
A little planning goes a long way...
At "The Register" (circa early 99)
"Everyone knows that Taiwanese companies make notebooks for big companies like IBM, Compaq, Dell and HP. But which company makes what? Here's the OEM list, courtesy of a Taiwanese wire. Quanta makes Gateway, Dell, IBM, Apple and Siemens products. Acer makes IBM and Hitachi products. Inventec makes Compaq notebooks. Compal makes Dell and HP notebooks. Arima makes Compaq notebooks. Twinhead manufactures for HP and Winbook. Clevo makes Hitachi notebooks. Mitac manufactures for Sharp. GVC manufactures for Siemens, Micron, Apple and Packard Bell. And FIC manufactures for NEC and Packard Bell. ® According to the survey, total notebook from the small (240 miles long) island amounted to 5,420,000 in 1998."
This probably supports your point, but I can't resist nit-picking just a little. Magna does complete vehicles (including design), although these are primarily OEM'd to other companies as well as their parts are.
You're right about it being lucrative to just make the parts.
Christopher
Mozilla
I know! I downloaded "2-Disk Xwin 0.9" and put it on my floppy disks, and it's crap! All you can do in Linux is.. pine, vi, pico, ls, cd, there's nothing to do on it! Now if I could make a floppy disk with Linux + Contra, that's the day I start to use Linux!
One item we changed comes to mind immediately - the rubber feet on Inspiron 7000's were originally made of a material that marked nearly every surface we set them down on. Many people had multiple black spots and marks where the systems sat on their desk. Ick.
My favoite question for pushy computer salesmen who seem to know everything. Does your computer come equiped with the latest RFT? Rubber Foot Technology is clearly important.
For some reason I thought Apple might have been #1 :)
Actually, depending on where you shop, the pricing can be quite competitive. I recently bought my first computer after having built my last three. I ended up purchasing my computer from Alienware because:
A: They came highly recommended from sources I trust.
B: They could build the computer I wanted, cheaper then I could buy the parts.
I won't bother you with all the messy detail (prices for computer parts are in such flux that it would be pointless anyways. If you really must know, hit reply and I'll tell you) but I was able to get such a good deal for a couple of reasons. They had a special around Christmas for free shipping, I didn't pay sales tax because they are located out of state and they were probably cutting their profit margins about as close as any other online retailer.
Cheers!
-Pointed Stick
While I buy the argument that you're paying for a name if you're buying an Inspiron or Presario instead of a nameless econo-box that Quanta could build and sell on the cheap, but taht's not the case with Apple.
Because Apple's proprietary, no outside manufacturer could make Apple-compatable boxes and undersell Apple, not Quanta or anybody.
Basically, Dell and Compaq haven't done much to evolve the actual circuits inside the box, so it really is just a label slapped on the outside. Apple designed the computing architecture of their machines, and you're buying that design, the ROMs, and the OS.
That's a lot more than a nameplate, and something that Quanta couldn't turn around and undercut Apple on...
Kevin Fox
Have you used Dell support recently? I had heard that they recently laid off a lot of their support staff. (It may have been a /. source, so don't believe this if you don't know that it's true.)
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Set up a dummy hotmail account and link NY times to that. Get over it already.
Sorry to come down on you so hard, but it shows you're just to f'ing lazy to set up an account to handle your spam.
I bought my first PC from Quanta back in 1994 and it is still running with mostly original parts. They were inexpensive but certainly didn't create junk. I wouldn't be too upset getting their parts under another label.
The notion that G8 markets should purge manufacturing was once held as an ideal but has, at least for the last five years, been thoroughly debunked. Not all manufacturing is idiot work - consider logistics, cost control, and automation as three aspects of this market which do promote the knowledge economy.
This debate on the pros and cons of manufacturing in the economy is so utterly naive and devoid of hard facts that it really should be shot and left outside. Read any of the adequate books (the most obvious being Fingleton) on this topic that have come out in the last few years and you will see that this debate requires more depth than the simplistic tete-a-tete of /. comments.
HP is not the only "OEM" that puts crummy drives in its rebadged machines. Anything with an eMachines nameplate has some of the worst hard drives on the planet in it. Samsung. Not as crapulous as the legendary JTS but damn close.
.SIG and fax your Congresscritter today!
Most of these rebadged computers have the crappiest parts they can get away with. The beauty of building a PC yourself is that you can actually put sane parts into it.
The problem is with the PHBs who expect a "brand name" on their computers. You might have to do some homework on marketdroid concepts like Return On Investment and making a "Business case" for going the white-box route, but I am confident that a business case can indeed be made for building you own machines or finding a trustworthy screwdriver shop and having them build a whole bunch of computers to your very exacting specifications. If you trust the screwdriver shop to come up with a spec themselves they will use the cheapest parts they can get away with, and you are back in the same place you were with rebadged crappy Chi-com computers.
Seriously...there is no reason to get a desktop from a "name brand." If you buy one for yourself you are a fool. If your PHB demands them it's up to you to educate him/her about the problems of "name brand" computers. Besides, if you build it yourself, you can fix it yourself. That's the best argument for beige boxen I can think of.
Then again if CBDTPA (The evil bill formerly known as SSSCA and commonly called the "Hollings/Disney Act") passes, "name brand" crappy computers with "digital rights management" boobytraps will be all you can buy legally in the US. Check my
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
It warms my heart every time I see a link from a major site like /. to the NYTimes with ?pagewanted=print tacked onto the end.
I bet they'll eventually wise up and start checking referers so that you can't link directly to the lightweight page. But until then...
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Choose mnemonic identifiers. If you can't remember what mnemonic means, you've got a problem. - Larry Wall
Actually, Dell laid off their ENTIRE support staff. An insider friend of mine tells me it's in preperation for the planned merger between Dell, Compaq, Apple, and General Electric. You may find it hard to believe now, but you'll see on April 21st when the news is made official.
I agree that the human rights issue is something of extreme importance (this is why I refuse to buy Nike, Adidas, and etc). But on the other hand, even exploited workers are usually a step above unemployed workers. This is an ethical quandry of sorts and is something we should all take a look at. Hopefully Dell, Apple, and the other companies that use Quanta demand the right to inspect the plant and ensure that there is no child labor or "slave labor" being used.
The quality that Quanta is known for seems to indicate that they are a top-notch shop but, their presence in mainland-China is just starting. Who knows where this will go.
One thing we can do, is demand that our suppliers check on their suppliers to insure that no child labor is used. It would not do Apple's (or Dell's) reputation any good to be known as an exploiter of children.
There are some very good companies doing business in mainland-China. Some that I have read about build campuses that provide housing and food for their workers at reasonable costs, enforce regular work shifts and run an "honest" business. The rent they charge and the cost of the meals they serve is lower than they could find in the community-at-large and their pay is good by local standards. These companies are for the most part aligned with companies from other countries that have contracts that insist on these standards.
To the China based companies, it is not a question of right or wrong but more or less, a cost of doing business. Going wrong means losing lucrative contracts. This, they can not afford to do.
The print boards are what the main difference between HP, Canon, Oce etc. I am certified on all three and can interchange parts among all three brands. The parts are all made by Canon. The only difference is in the inkjets. Canon makes thier own as does HP and Oce. (paper pickup rollers are the same though)
HP designs all the electronics and mechanicals around the laser engine...and on the inkjet side, it's ALL HP: silicon print head through case parts.
That Honda plant, right along side several others around the nation built by foriegn automotive companies, exist to circumvent tarrifs. Rather than spend millions a year lowering or fighting tarrifs and then having to explain their own hugely high tarrifs, they just moved the plants inside, to locally accepting and supportive areas where the economy is soft and unemployment high. This is also an area where sympathetic politicos and press are readily available. Then they build away and avoide he import tarrifs (at least in part, if not all).
The posters comments were right on. The best thing this country can do is diversify into multiple skilled market segments and get away from industrial semi-skilled employment base as quickly as possible. Yes, people will get hurt in the process, but the benefits in the long far outweight the few unlucky or lazy individuals who can't overcome/reeducate and succeed in a new economy.
I actually live in Wellington, New Zealand where LOTR was shot and edited. Sure A Beautiful Mind is cool, but LOTR deserved better.
What I want is a IBM 110 GHz cpu in a powermac, which would be about 550 GigaFlops of Fun.
Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of them, all rendering a HD animation in Maya or Electric Image.
Damn, I wish I had a few of Peter Jackson's millions to play with.
- Kaos games and encryption systems developer
Priest? Are you a priest? A monk? A nun?
Usually only religious people care about crap like that...
Christianity is stupid... give it up.
I think you're right about cost-effectiveness being the key, but the tariffs were not the compelling reason. The U.S. offered a ready supply of well trained workers who could not be supported in the heavily unionized labor market of the Big three. They were willing to take a good paying job with good benefits, which was still less than half the ridiculously inflated wages of the United Autoworkers. They were used to working around modern factories (unlike the Mexicans) and were educated adequately for the task. In the end, the cost of manufacturing was cheaper in the U.S. because it was closer to the raw materials, subassembly & parts suppliers, the distribution channels and the end customer.
The wages were about the same as Japan, the property costs were cheaper, and the productivity was far higher than Mexico. The productivity even proved to be better than in Japan, because the Marysville Honda plant exported more Accords back to Japan each year than the japanese plant produced in total. (I think they eventually canned the less efficient Japanese plant to trim overhead.)
Where I disagree, (other than the issue of *why* it was more cost effective) is your comments about those who have trouble adapting to the "new" economy.
The cost of labor responds to the principles of supply and demand like everything else. The fact that someone "needs" a "real" wage is irrelevant. Goods are worth what someone is willing to pay, so if you want to adjust prices upward to help out those who can't compete you end up just dragging everyone down with them.
Anyone who isn't worrying about the day the axeman commeth must yearn for a life of leisure and daytime television. Hey, at least it's incentive to keep getting retrained and looking for new opportunities. There is nothing wrong with that.
I thought it was Westinghouse, not General Electric.
GE used to make some good stuff. I have a General Electric Optical Galvanometer from the old days when GE test equipment was in the same class as General Radio gear.
Not that many here on Slashdot would have much use for an optical galvanometer. You're just not geeky enough.
"But on the other hand, even exploited workers are usually a step above unemployed workers. "
You might want to rethink that.
Compare the life of the unemployed vs the life of the "exploited". And remember one can be *exploited* in so many more ways than one who's unemployed.
I thought it was Westinghouse, not General Electric.
doh!
Are you sure it isn't going to be on the first of April? :-)
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.