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O'Reilly Showcases PS2 Linux Gear
cascadefx writes: "The O'Reilly Network is currently running an article that showcases the much talked about Playstation 2 Linux distribution. Nice parts of the article include analysis by a Blizzard developer on the Linux PS2 as a gaming platform and a screenshot and pic of the hardware that comes with it."
I have been looking for a more open game console. I couldn't justify JUST games. I'd like to do a bit more.... Hurray!
"If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
Makes you wonder what the point of it is, doesn't it. What does Sony expect one to do with this kit?
I can imagine a meeting along the lines of "People like ot install Linux on game machines, lets sell them a version!" "Okay, just make sure they can't make games for it. If they want to do that, they must pay royalties."
"Derp de derp."
As cool as this is, I fail to see it providing any significant advantages. Most people will stick with their trusty desktop and not bother forking out. I on the other hand, am due for a pay rise soon.....
John, I'm Only Dancing!
Also, while you can develop your own stuff, there's no way to write it out to a CD/DVD that can play on any PS2 without the linux kit.
Couldn't you just transfer a developed game onto another machine using the ethernet though, and write to a DVD that way? I'm not sure how the game is actually read, but I'd assume someone can figure a way to backwards engineer it.
This is a pretty sweet product, and relatively inexpensive for its usefulness. Too bad I just updated my current system, or I'd probably go out and buy both the system and kit.
Yeah, I'm talking about being able to share my stuff with anyone who DIDN'T shell out the big bucks for the Linux kit.
The Blizzard developer quoted in the article is non other than Sam Lantinga, of Loki and SDL fame.
In my very limited email correspondance with Sam, he proves to be a great guy. SDL is an awesome development API, and he already ported it to the Playstaion 2 Linux.
If one has a PS2 and this Linux distro, why would one even need a computer at all. Set the cable modem next to the monitor/television and you are set. I don't follow Windows emulators but, if also there were a very good one out there I could watch the Simpsons and play Civ3 during commercials, without even having to SPIN THE CHAIR. This is truly beautiful. :,)
sig
So that's the plan!
;-)
The evil Xbox's main attraction to devellopers is the fact that you can make games that will be a breeze to port back and forth from the PC to that console and vice versa.
Sony fights back with something that makes it as easy to port to and from linux and the PS2!
Wouldn't it be nice if game companies would sell their games along with a dumbed-down linux distro now? With instructions on how to make a partition on your windows formatted machine so "normal" users could cross over...
that's it...I'm starting a game company!
You can't take the sky from me...
this is definitely for personal amusement and not for "real" gaming.
;-)
Yeah, when I play games, personnal amusement is the farthest thing from my mind!
You can't take the sky from me...
A lot of people are saying it's not all that useful because it can't play DVD's in Linux and stuff...I want to get it because it allows you direct access to the PS2 graphics hardware and will give me some experience in programming console games. I would have killed to have gotten a Net Yaroze (for the original PlayStation) just to get to play around with it. With the Net Yaroze, you developed on a PC and uploaded about a meg and a half max through a paralell port. At least now I can develop on the box (through ethernet) and play my game right there, and then send it to other people with PS2 Linux.
Would you want to make this your only Linux box? Not really. Make it a server? Nope, not really. Use it as a way to program PS2 games without paying the extraordinarily high Sony licensing fees? Yep. That's what I'm using it for.
If I want to hack Linux, I'll just hack the linux PC I already own.
Heh i got modded down for being a 'Troll'. I honestly didn't mean it that way. Oh well.
"Actually, that might be exactly why they did it. If you look at the results of the survey that they did prior to releasing the distro, the majority of the reponses indicated that they would use it as a hobby instead of for some professional reason"
I remember something along those lines. I think if that was behind the decision to not include things like DVD support, then Sony misinterpreted people a bit. I think the expectation to porting Linux to the PS2 is that a hobbyist would be able to access the entire machine. But it sounds like Sony crippled it, presumably to prevent ppl from exploiting it.
That's kind of the problem with having a company release a product that has it's own interests to protect.
Pity, Sony could have had a really good reputation for being 'hackable' if they had supported it. I might have bought a PS2 just to play with the apps that other people make.
"Derp de derp."
Here ya go!
They had to lay off 85% of the testers due to them being under 18.
Or is that another story?
THL
(erm, sorry?)
Keeping
Never ceases to amaze me how many people just love to use the law when it suits them (Oh, say, anti-trust laws, or the copyright laws that give the GPL it's legal weight) but cast aside the ones that make just as much sense (like, say, child protection labour laws) when it doesn't suit them. No, wait. It did cease to amaze me a long time ago. I live in fear of the day when the unwashed masses suddenly realize that they outnumber the legal authorities.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Linux for Playstation 2 Community
Pre-Order Linux for PS-2
Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
You're forgetting that the console is not the product. Far from it. The real product is the license fees they're getting from each and every game produced for it. And, of course, tidy revenue from all of the extra doo-dahs like feedback racing wheels etc.
So, you give away the console for free, or at least pretty close to what it's costing for you to build one and cart it over to the shelf.. So that you can start carting money to the bank from all the games and stuff people buy for your console.
The decision to limit what you can do with your cool linux port is probably due to beancounter paranoia. The same reason you cannot use SCART RGB output for DVD playback. RGB spec doesn't allow for Macrovision, so we must not support it. Anyone with half a brain concerned about people taping DVDs to VCRs? I don't think so. But a corporate beancounter doesn't exactly fit into the "half a brain" category.
I give it about six months before the device driver layer is disassembled, and new device drivers start to appear that allow full access to the hardware.
Six months or less.
Maybe because PS-2 cannot boot/read DVD-R & CD-R/CD-RW ??
Hetz (Heunique)
Oh my. I hate to have to break it to you ...
Your computer has ANTHRAX!!
From the FAQ on the playstation2-linux.com page:
The PlayStation 2 contains a subsystem for operating peripherals and audio including the SPU2 (Sound Processing Unit), the IOP, the HDD, the DVD drive, controllers, memory cards, USB and other peripherals. The hardware specification for these units is not disclosed. The Runtime Environment provided on DISC 1 includes binary software device drivers for controlling these hardware units. Source code for the Runtime Environment is proprietary and will not be disclosed. However, DISC 2 contains Linux device drivers (with source code) which show how to access all these devices through the Runtime Environment interface. This gives the developer access to the functionality of all the devices but not the complete hardware specification.
If CBDTPA passes, this is precisely the kind of scenario we'd have on all PC hardware. Sure, you could still use Linux with it, but you'll have to use proprietary binary drivers to access any I/O device. Replace "Runtime Environment" in the above paragraph with "government certified anti-copying device" and you've got a near perfect preview of CBDTPA. And of course, note that "hardware specifications are not disclosed." In other words, if you reverse engineer a device.. say a USB scanner.. to write a Linux driver, you'd be in violation of the proposed law. Only the manufacturer would be able to legally provide the drivers to access their hardware. And we all know the wonderful track record of PC hardware manufacturers in supporting alternative operating systems. I for one, will not support any company who produces proprietary hardware in the name of "anti-piracy."
First off, you must boot off of Sony's bootloader disc. The code on the bootloader, which runs before the kernel gets loaded, is basically a NT-like hardware abstraction layer that prevents you from getting direct register-level access to the GS (graphics/sound coprocessor) chip, the DVD CSS mechanism on the DVD-ROM (so no CSS-supported DVD player possible in Linux), memory card (Linux uses a special memory card format different than normal Playstation games, probably to prevent you from getting at and modifying saved game data), and possibly others as well.
The VGA box is only supported under Linux as well -- a shame, as Dreamcast has a VGA box which is actually supported by most of its commercial titles, and really makes them look better.
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Does anyone remember the Coleco Adam module?
Do you remember the Intellivision ECS module?
Do you remember the Atari 2600 Piggyback module?
Remember Atari 2600 BASIC?
I do... and trust me: They were all cool 'toys'. I sincerely doubt that much anything useful can be done with this kit, as long as the stipulation remains that you must have the kit to run anything created with it.
I really like SDL. I've submitted bug fixes for mouse and sound issues in the past, and Sam always responded quickly and enthusiastically. SDL really makes 2D programming easy. We'll have to see how good of an OpenGL implementation the kit has before we can venture out of the 2D world. At least Atani or I can now port Bliss32 to it. :)
I do like the 40GB HD though - beats the hell out of the 8GB one in my X-Box. Can I start hoping against hope that MS lets us do the same thing with our X-Box's... er... legally? :)
If any kids are out there, thinking about getting into programming via this module, I would warn you off that path. This is just Linux for the PS2 - it's not a 'Games Creation Kit'. I can't see how it would be any easier to learn programming with this kit than on a real PC.
-J
Most people seem to forget the target audience of the PS2 Linux. It's *not* for desktop or server use, definitely not for average gamer or even typical Linux hacker. It's not for mainstream in any form, if it was it would be available outside of the net as well. It won't be very supported officially, it's supposed to be community-supported. PS2-games and DVDs won't work in Linux. Software made on PS2 Linux can't be run on another PS2 without Linux. Bootable CD/DVDs can't be burned even on PC, because PS2 won't boot from burned discs (at least without hardware mods).
It's for people who already know Linux and possibly programming, and want to play with PS2 hardware, try what it's really made of. Documentation and development tools for processor, vector units and graphics synth are included. And I'm going to get it, because I'm very interested in that very nice piece of hardware.
I think it's quite a smart move from Sony. PS2 has always been criticized as being a very difficult platform to develop to. PS2 Linux will make it possible for a couple of thousand (no, it won't sell much more) hobbyists, and even game developers without previous PS2 experience, to familiarize themselves with PS2 hardware. It won't brew a large community of home-made PS2 games, but it may give a good start for a few of PS2 coders.
But it won't help you very much...
The PS-2 machine itself doesn't read CD-R or DVD-R media's - so you can't even bypass the POST (or maybe it's the drive limitation) - what would it help you?
Hetz (Heunique)
Think about it, how many PS2 are out there? This is a potentially awesome opportunity for someone to produce something very cool and very successful. Follow me on this, picture the PS2 as Sony's answer to Apples Digital Media Hub. You can hook your digital cam (or memory stick of course) to the thing and look at and edit pictures on your PS2 via USB/FireWire. Who needs a internet appliance. Just use your PS2 to take those pictures you took and email it to your buddies. Or have it setup a web page to share with your buddies. Use your PS2 to demo albums or DVD's or games and then order them online.
;)
....
All of the above would be possible without the user having to have a hd, so you'd have access to the entire population of PS2 users. If Sony can properly market the hd (or ship PS3 with one), then you start being able to do things like editing your movies via FireWire (of course burning them onto DVD's would be an area of contention with Sony, but I'm sure they'll think of some proprietary solution
People are forgetting that just because the current incarnation of LinuxPS2 is restricted, it doesn't mean that they can't open it up more if the apps being developed would benifit them. Also keep in mind that they can come with a distro that boots from the cd/dvd and uses the memory card as swap space (i.e. a small tight app deployment distro). This is even easier if they decide to use larger capacity memory cards (or switch over to the memory stick).
This seems to me an exciting and rare opportunity to A) get in early on a "new" platform (i.e. hardware+software) B) have that platform have a huge potential audience right off the bat (vs praying that this new platform has more than a few hundred users ala Be).
Gentlemen, start your editors
Ryan T. Sammartino
"Ancora imparo"
I wonder what nintendo has to say about it???
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
The PS-2 machine itself doesn't read CD-R or DVD-R media's
Well. Actually, the drive reads CD-Rs just fine.
In short, this entire kit is a waste of time.
Says who? You? Well then its a waste of time to you. Last time I checked, I do not have any of the tools I need to develop games and/or applications for my PS2. In fact, I'm looking through all of my directories right now and GCC doesn't seem to support the PS2. So no, it is not a waste of time. I think it'd be kind of fun to try and write my stuff to run on my PS2. As far as limiting the usefulness of a "homebrew game maker" seems to me anyone with the Linux kit would be able to play the games. You are, afterall, getting a network adapter with it. The kit isn't so that I can go off and make a fortune as a game designer. Its so I can do something off the wall with my PS2. It also means I'll probably hold on to the hardware for longer now because I can do something "else" with it.
So instead you are going to buy your own mouse, keyboard, harddrive, network adapter, and video adapter resulting in saving money? Also, to use a burned copy of the CD you're going to need a modchip so don't forget to factor that in. When its all said and done, you've done what? Saved your self $20? Oh wait, no, you cost yourself at least $20.
This effort has nothing to do with the PS3. Its based on their GScube arch which is nothing like the current PS2's arch. So I'm kind of at a loss how anyone buying the kit is going to help Sony. For one thing, I find it hard to believe that they are making $200 a pop. They are probably making far less. They are using this as a public relations ploy. Make a little on the hardware they sell, but make a lot in the minds of the users.
Read the article, it gives the #1 reason. It gives people a chance to program for a console. Sure its going to be very much like programming for Linux on a PC, but not exactly alike. There is an inherent challenge in dealing with the limitations of a console meanwhile exploiting its strengths.
It really never ceases to amaze me how people talk about the PS2 Linux kit as if it's the only way they'll ever get a chance to develop for a real console.
;-) So for fairness, I'll also mention the
DC Linux port to the Dreamcast, also with a decent amount of hardware and lib support now.
Well, for about $120 worth of hardware (and that includes the console itself, which is still capable of playing tons of great games) you can buy yourself a "Dreamcast devel kit", complete with a BSD licensed toolkit (see SourceForge link), an active hobbyist community, etc. Oh and did I mention, unfettered access to the vast majority of the hardware and to-the-metal performance? How about the ability to burn a CD of your game for anyone who owns a Dreamcast to play it?
Of course, I'm a bit biased, being in charge of the development of said software kit.
I'm interested in getting a PS2 Linux kit too, but I just want people to be aware that there are other ways as well.
Cryptic Allusion - New Mac and Dreamcast Games!
Not strictly true. A DVD work-around has already been produced (search on Google, I can't remember the URL) for the (admittedly beta) Japanese versions of the Linux kit.
--- My dad's political betting
How easy would it be to port it to a 'native' PS2 game, one that could be sold commercially? Or if not sold, maybe Sony could distribute it for low cost to push sales and I could get some fame as a game developer that way.... any thoughts? I just don't want develop games that so few people could end up playing.
I believe (key word, don't quote me on this) that Sony won't be looking to distribute your work unless you pay the high licensing fee. The PS2 Linux game platform is for HOBBYISTS, who want to get their feet wet. I'm not sure how "famous" you'd get developing games using the PS2 Linux Kit. Only people with the Linux Kit would be able to play your games. I'm personally using it more as a learning experience and a resume builder. (Hey look, I can use the PS2GL! Hire me!)
Shouldn't be that hard, since I'm pretty sure that code written with PS2 Linux use the same hardware calls as the professional dev stations. The professional dev stations use Linux themselves, albeit a more souped up version.
The screen shot was taken on April 29... ;-)
I guess it is around one year old, so, hopefully, loads of progress have been made (unless this is not "news" but only "stuff that could matter"
Trolling using another account since 2005.
Yes you can use the TV but only after its been booted up the first time through VGA. After installation you can configure it to use the TV.
Its based on their GScube arch which is nothing like the current PS2's arch.
Only if consisting of multiple instances of the PS2's Graphics Synthesizer rendering subsystem in parallel is "nothing like" the PS2. Reading the first sentence of the second google hit supplies this clue. For free.
main(O){10<putchar(4^--O?77-(15&5128 >>4*O):10)&&main(2+O);}
I was wrong, too. How awful.
Here's straight from the FAQ: