Long live The King of PDAs

x136 writes "Despite being cancelled over four years ago, the Newton Messagepad is still getting better. You can now connect to an 802.11b network, install packages from OS X, and play the MP3s that you transferred from iTunes to your Compact Flash cards. It's pretty hard to imagine how great the Newton could have become had it not been abandoned."

Comments

Popular.

[0xB]

Can something be called popular when a story about Quake on the Newton gets 0 comments?

Re:Popular.

[|_uke]

Because it has been posted a couple times before :)

Re:Popular.

[Lars T.]

You are right, Quake isn't popular.

Re:Popular.

[Suppafly]

It probably didn't make the front page.. Things that don't make the front page don't get that many comments.

Re:Popular.

[Aftermac]

Yeah, or how an article about 802.11 support on the Newton only got 63 comments...oh...wait...it must be popular!

Impressive for its day

[vonsneerderhooten]

With a 20 MHz RISC processor and 4 MB ram, this baby was well designed, and the software genuises at apple and at large were able to keep it useful.

That is remarkable.

-D

Re:Impressive for its day

[RevAaron]

I can't tell if this comment is in benign ignorance, or a joke...

The most recent and most capable model, the one which is largely being talked about is the MP2x00 series. It has 162 MHz StrongARM processor, 5 or 8 MB of RAM and a luxurious 480x320 screen (compared to the piddly 320x240 res of so-called modern PDAs). However, the MP120 and MP130 running Newton OS 2.0, with their 20-25 MHz ARM and 2-4 MB of RAM are also still incredibly useful, although not as powerful.

The MP2100 model is still impressive, not only in it's day, but today as well. :)

Re:Impressive for its day

[Tug3]

Impressive for its day - in every aspect.
Still impressive - would it not be for its size.

That's mainly my point. I used to have a Newton 120, and I'm still longing for it. For example the cut&paste -feature with pen was something else. I would just throw the cut (or copied) text to the top corner of the screen. Then at my target application just take the cutted object from the top corner and paste it where I wanted.

Another feature was the ability to have links to other documents. For example in calendar I could link people and documents into a meeting the way I wanted.

These two are just some of the features I miss. I've tried Palms, Psions, even WinCE PDAs and they all lack the same ease of use the Newton had... ...would the Newton only be smaller, I would run straight to my nearest dealer to get one! (Ofcourse there are no dealers left, now that Apple did cancel the Newton years back...)

Re:Impressive for its day

[RevAaron]

Indeed. On slashdot, most of the kids here have no idea of what the Newton was, other than "it sux0r3d d00d!" But the sad fact, is on this iPAQ, everything is so relatively inconsistent and pain-in-the-ass. You don't really notice appreciate the Newton until it's gone, or until you start to try to use WinCE/PocketPC or PalmOS. :P There's nothing that a Newton can do that a Palm OS/PPC device can't, just like you can do everything in assembly that you can in Common Lisp. It'll just take a lot more time and be a lot less elegant.

As far as size, yeah it was kind of a pain. Until recently, I carried around a MP2100u to my classes and generally most places I went. The size didn't much bother me, because it was better to carry the Newton than a book bag with a bunch of notes and books and/or my iBook- I had it all in the Newton. So, if you want a PDA just for an overpriced, status-symbol daybook, the Newton is definately not what you need. But, if you're like me, and want to be able to carry a huge amount of information around, take all of your college lecture notes, play games, read books, and hack on genetic algorithms all in one place, the Newton definately beats out the other options.

What a shame!

Re:Impressive for its day

[benwaggoner]

Actually, the 480x320 might have been where they went wrong with the Newton. The older versions were powerful enough, but too big. Instead of using new technologies to make the Newton more powerful yet, they should have made it smaller.

Instead of doubling the screen resolution by increasing pixel density, they should have kept the resolution 320x240, and cut the size of the unit in half. Instead of going to the full 162 MHz processor, they should have used a slower, more power efficient one, so fewer batteries were needed.

It still would have been somewhat bigger than a Palm, but with all that Newton software to use...

Something to put up on the virtual "what could have been" shelf with my dual processor PowerPC NeXT system...

Re:Impressive for its day

[blamanj]

As far as size, yeah it was kind of a pain.

It's not the size that bothers me, it's the weight. When I picked the Newton 2100 over the Palm five years ago, I wanted the extra screen space. If you use it for taking notes, as I have often done, it's really essential.

What I've come to regret, however, is how heavy thing is. If Steve Jobs hadn't killed Newton, Inc., I'm sure there'd be a much lighter version available today. As it is, I haven't seen a PDA to take its place.

Re:Impressive for its day

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of doubling the screen resolution by increasing pixel density, they should have kept the resolution 320x240, and cut the size of the unit in half.

Just prior to Steve canning the Newton project, Apple was ready to release a small-size Newton to compete head-to-head with the Palm.

Instead of going to the full 162 MHz processor, they should have used a slower, more power efficient one, so fewer batteries were needed.

Actually, the StrongARM processor was ten times as fast as the ARM610 and it used less power. The Motorola DragonBall inside the Palm was a low-power processor to be sure, but the StrongARM was almost as good, and had tremendous features on top of it. Note that the StrongARM is now the dominant processor on the market, and the DragonBall will soon be dead. Apple had it right, even for making a smaller device than the Newts.

Something to put up on the virtual "what could have been" shelf with my dual processor PowerPC NeXT system...

Hmmm...I wonder if you can get one of those on eBay...

Re:Impressive for its day

[RevAaron]

I agree, taking notes on my iPAQ is a pain in ass. Again, the weight didn't bother me, comapred to the weight of a bookbag. But a modern version would be quite a bit smaller and lighter, yet retaining the big screen.

Re:Impressive for its day

[Tug3]

I know this is going to lead this discussion even further away from the origin, but I still think it's worth mentioning...

The only PDA that ever has come close to the Newton (IMHO at least) is the Psions. They did perfect their PDAs for long time, and it shows. The old Psion 3, even without touch screen is unusually well thought out. But with Psion 5 and the touch screen it was even better. And the keyboard on Psion 5 is still the best one out. And everything is packed into such compact package! (I know the Psion revo is smaller, but it has no backlight & no expansion, so I'll disregard it here!)

The only problem with Psion, if comparing to Newton, is that it still suffers from it's keyboard oriented history. One can do most things with the stylus quite easily, but after you learn the quick-key combinations you'll end up using less and less stylus.

I would say that in the Ideal World, The PDA would be the size of Psion 5 (with it's keyboard) and have the operating system & software of Newton. Yeah ok, maybe a color screen would be nice too, and Bluetooth and a MMC-reader and builtin IBM's 1gig MicroDrive and...

...and the I woke up, and read that Psion too has cancelled PDA production! Why do all the good things die?

And to get back to the original point of Newton. One thing that amaized about it was it's unbelievable style of memory management. I've never heared anyone using it after Newton in any other PDA! Was it patented or why?

Re:Impressive for its day

[TerryMathews]

As I remember, Palm was founded by ex-Newton employees...?

Re:Impressive for its day

[WeirdKid]

Nope. Most ex-Apple (and Newton, Inc.) employees have been hired by Microsoft almost the second their cars leave the parking lot.

Palm came from US Robotics, later bought by 3Com, and then spun off on its own. Handspring was founded by ex-Palm founders.

Re:Impressive for its day

[Andreius]

Not true. Palm was founded in 1992; US Robotics purchased it in 1995. In addition, the sheer number of ex-Apple employees now working for Handspring or Palm is staggering. Fully half of Handspring's executives are former employees of Apple or it's subsidiaries, for 8 ex-Apple-ites in total; at Palm, 8 of the 19 executives are former employees of Apple, including 3 former Apple senior vice presidents. Needless to say, Apple's influence on the handheld market has gone way, way beyond the Newton.

Newton Replacement

[RevAaron]

Frankly, I'm disapointed by the other options in the PDA market today. It's sad, really. So, to try to recreate a little of the Newton spirit, I'm working on Dynapad, which isn't a Newton clone per se, but a PDA environment that will embody many of the core ideas and goals of the Newton, as a truly personal communicator, a computer, and an information device.

shameless plug out...

I have a newton, it won't power on.

[xophos]

A friend brought me this messagepad 120 some months
ago. I tried some tricks i found on newton fan pages but it's still not getting any better. ;-)

Re:I have a newton, it won't power on.

[Anonymous Coward]

When you have problems like this, THE place to check is the Newton FAQ. They have a whole Section devoted to this problem.

iFake

[upstairs]

What happened to the iWalk?

Simply a fake or is it a prototype?

Hey, i can keep dreaming can't I? :>

Re:Like the Apple ][ fan club...

[jlower]

Of course you can get it serviced. It's an Apple, you take it to an Apple service department just like you would a Macintosh.

i'm in hell

[snoozebutton]

hoping to get one soon..

and it will rock.
soap, shampoo and conditioner clean it.. ah mean it..

Got a Newton 130

[PD]

And I still use it. What a great machine it is. I'll probably replace it someday with something that can run a Python interpreter, but for now it's what I need.

Re:I've read an interview with interface developer

[Anonymous Coward]

Unable to give URL, probably it even was a paper interview. Anyway it was in russian - you see, pen input interface was developed by Russians.

Correction: the original handwriting system (Calligrapher) was developed by Russians. And it sucked. And it still sucks, even now on WindowsCE. It just sucked much much less than the alternatives at the time.

Two years later Apple released version 2.0 of NewtonOS, with a far FAR FAR improved handwriting system (Rosetta) developed in-house at Apple. To this day, Rosetta is still basically the best handwriting system out there. Too bad it's only available on Newtons.

Still amazes me

[d0n quix0te]

I bought a MP 2100 from an ebay auction a year ago. Still amazes the heck out of me. Full featured e-mail access over Ethernet (POP3/IMAP/SMTP), browsing the internet, playing MP3s , text to speech (Macintalk) support are quite amazing.

The incredibly well done data soup architecture, fantastic hand writing recognition, the intuitive interface are still unparalleled/unmatched. Hats off to the Newton visionaries!

Re:Still amazes me

[Alan Partridge]

amen - PERSONAL DIGITAL ASSISTANT - it really was exactly that. pretty amazing that Jobs couldn't see just how much potential that machine had. I wonder if Apple is secretly doing ANYTHING with Newton technology - if Sharp can get an embedded Linux onto a PDA, couldn't Apple get an embedded OSX going on one? The little Newtonesque touches in OSX (like the puff of smoke delete) really give me hope - and there have been various HWR-on-OSX stories bandied about from time to time.

Re:Still amazes me

[Midnight Thunder]

What I would love is for Apple to learn from the Newton and add some of the cool functionality into their desktop systems.

Re:Like the Apple ][ fan club...

[Alan Partridge]

mr helpless has a point though - I have both MP130 and a 2100 and they have fallen out of use (despite being fantastic) due to the waning Newton community and lack of development. I'm sure I could get them serviced by Apple if needed (they're REALLY reliable) but I don't know if I would bother. That new Sharp Zaurus 5500 might be a better long term bet, sad to think how much better a machine Apple could build... o fuck it, DID BUILD!

Newton in Ricochet network

[AaronBaker2000]

You can even use your newton on the almost dead ricochet network.

Check this out.

What I'd like to see

[Dark Paladin]

What I'd like to see will never happen, but I think it's a cool idea.

I'd like for either Apple to bring back the Newton (I've never used one, so that explains my next comments) with an iPod storage enhancement, or to contract with Palm to use the iPod.

Imagine a world like this. You have your PDA (Newton/Palm/otherwise), and there's a slot where you can slid your iPod inside. Now your iPod is supplying the power/disk space for your PDA. When you slid it out and plug it back into your Mac, now you can just pull whatever files you edited/autoupdate your calender software/send emails composed/etc, etc, etc. Leave your iPod inside the device, and you can still play MP3's while editing a document/spreadsheet with your little PDA. Or read e-books. Or do your calender thing. Or...you get the point.

Or with digital cameras. Why worry about uploading/downloading, if you had a digital camera that used the iPod as the storage device? (Probably would need extra battery power, but you get the idea.) Plug it back into the Mac, and there's the image files, ready to be edited/copied. When they're good, copy them back to the iPod, and plug it back intot the camera, and "preview" the pictures with other folks.

With Apple's whole "digital hub" idea, using the iPod as a major piece of that as a PDA enhancement/camera system/digital video (maybe not high quality - "good enough") would be an interesting move on their part.

Re:What I'd like to see

[cuyler]

If there was a slot were I could slide my iPod into my PDA that would likely mean the PDA is bigger than the iPod. I think that would be too big. The PDA should be about the same size and weight as the iPod.

What would be nice is a hybrid of a PDA and the iPod. If Apple was to release such a beast - a PDA with 5gb of hard disk storage along with its 32mb of memory and a firewire connection all bundled with an Apple creation of a mobile OS (it's Apple so I would expect an amazing interface and fully capable PIM) then I would be sold on it.

It wouldn't have to be colour (probably decide not do that to retain battery life) and I'd imagine it would look like the current iPod but have the screen longer (75%) and wider (5%-10%).

I'm not sure if such a thing is possible but with the current technology that it is going into the iPod such a creation can't be that far off.

So in closing, I don't think the way to go is an iPod/PDA dual combo I think it's for the iPod to take over the functionality of the PDA and replace it. As for hooking the iPod up t a digital camera (video and still) I totally agree. Especially considering some digital still cameras will take video for up to 30 seconds - if they had 5, 10 or 20gb to work with then there would be much more flexabilty.

Oh well, till then I'll dream.

Re:What I'd like to see

[Have Blue]

What might be more reasonable is to have every device you mention have a firewire port. The power requirements might be a problem though.

Re:What I'd like to see

[Elwood P Dowd]

Um, how about this: an iPod 150% larger in all dimensions. Color screen. 10GB drive. Firewire. Microphone, low quality no-focus digital camera. Removable Lithium Polymer batteries.

It'd have to be able to record and playback MP3s and MPEGs. You could save VCDs on it. At this point, it doesn't have to be a handheld computer. It could just be the ultimate portable media device. The soul of an iPod. If you wanted it to be a Palm/PPC/Newton replacement, then you would have to change the interface, purpose, processor, etc. It would exactly be an iPod anymore.

Not a bad idea, but...

[fm6]

• Pick another name. It's all very well to honor Alan Kay's original vision, but you need one of your own.
• The first goal of your project should be to write an emulator. FWithout something we can actually play with, your project is just another Big Vision, no matter how carefully you think it through. The emulator should run on a platform that's widely available (probably Java or Linux) so lots of different people can fiddle with it.

Re:Not a bad idea, but...

[Suppafly]

Wasn't Kay's called a DynaBook?

No April fools- Newton *is* still cutting edge.

[KH2002]

Great irony here- the last Newtons are nearly 5 years old, but there's no other handheld out there that can do what it does.

I still use mine for keeping a journal- when people see what it does for the first time, they're typically fascinated. When I tell them it's 5 years old and no longer available, they're shocked.

Re:Like the Apple ][ fan club...

[little_fluffy_clouds]

...waning Newton community...

Hmmm - The same waning community as this mailing list of over 1000 subscribers?

Re:Macintosh homos

[coolgeek]

Don't let him get to you too much, and prepare for more of these immasculated Linux zealots getting pissy behind OS X's success. (note: I am not attacking all Linux zealots, only the immasculated ones =)

Oh yeah, for that immasculated AC: I got 3 Macs in my lab (one of the gumdrop variety), 4 Intels running Linux, an 18 year old callous on the side my right index finger from popping code in the front panel of my Altair 8800, and IMO, every program can and should be written in assembler, so thpthtphtpthtptpthtttt

This is a serious question

[coolgeek]

Is there a project porting Linux to the Newton? I googled for it a bit and didn't find anything... It just seems like a cool inexpensive platform.

Re:This is a serious question

[option8]

i'm sure somebody out there is thinking about it. i found a couple threads like this one that basically say the same thing:

not bloody likely.

for one, the OS is in ROM, so you'd have to bypass it and put linux into RAM, which, even on the highest-end newton 2100 is still only 4 megs. the newton OS normally takes up about 3.5 of this, leaving the rest for user stuff. a very very tight linux implementation might work, but there are a lot of issues to deal with - namely, where to put your OS? in flash? a custom ROM?

Re:This is a serious question

[coolgeek]

thanks for sharing your thoughts/information. i was thinking a CF card in one of the type II slots and an ethernet card in the other, then run ethereal (or nmap, ping, etc) on it...perhaps the zaurus is better suited for this application, but it won't come close to impressing the chicks as much as a newton pocket datascope.

The Newton was before its time

[StarmanTHX]

I'm sure that most, if not all of you that bash the Newton never touched one because it had an Apple logo on it. It was a gorgeous machine. My friend still has his 2100 and brought it over a month ago. I have an iPaq, but using the 2100 reminded me of how great the Newton OS was. I agree...it's hard to imagine what the Newton would have been like if it wasn't abandoned. I think it would have given the other PDAs a run for their money. In fact, they already had Windows connectivity built in, so it wasn't a Mac-only system by any means. Mike

Newton 2100 web server

[Betaman]

A guy I worked with had the local Newton user group's web site run off his Newton 2100 (had an ethernet card installed obviously). Kinda cuts down on the mobility (drum hit). I saw it in action and put out the info (all text) at a decent speed. Point is that it was kinda neat.

Re:Newton 2100 web server

[Betaman]

Sorry, no... the site was taken down 2 years ago after it became the Palm user group (DoH!) Oh well... I can email the guy and ask him about the software if someone is interested.

Re:Like the Apple ][ fan club...

[Alan Partridge]

yep - and I'm on that list, too!

Re:King of PDAs?

[biggerboy]

or maybe

Long Live the Amiga of PDAs