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A Shogi Champion Turns to Chess
FFriedel writes "Michael Jordan tried it with baseball, and it, like, didn't work out too well for him. But what about a professional Shogi champion switching to chess? Yoshiharu Habu, one of the most gifted players in the history of the ancient Japanese game, has taken a casual interest in chess - and already reached IM strength. He is currently playing in a tournament in Paris, where chess grandmaster Joel Lautier interviewed him." Shogi is a very odd game if you're used to chess. Most of the pieces have biases toward forward motion, and when you capture an enemy piece, you can bring it back into play for your side.
Here's a link to a good description of Shogi, I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't know about the game.
When a Shogi champion turns to chess
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Michael Jordan tried it with baseball - it, like, didn't work out. But what about a professional Shogi champion switching to chess? Yoshiharu Habu, one of the most gifted players in the history of the ancient Japanese game, has taken a casual interest in chess - and already reached IM strength. He is currently playing in a tournament in Paris, where Joel Lautier interviewed him. More
Yoshiharu HABU, the Shogi champion
at the NAO CHESS CLUB from Monday 13th until Tuesday 21st of May 2002 in Paris
Yoshiharu HABU, the undisputed champion of Shogi (a complex game which is the Japanese equivalent of chess), is a top celebrity in Japan. He has been invited by the prestigious NAO Chess Club in Paris to participate in the second international tournament held at the club.
This unusual event aims to achieve two goals: introduce the fascinating game of Shogi to a larger Western audience and likewise enhance chess's popularity in Japan, where every move of their national champion Habu will be scrutinised by countless fans.
Ever since he joined the Professional School of Shogi at the age of twelve, Mr Habu, who is now 31 years old, has been known as the one of the most gifted player in the history of this ancient game. He is the only player to have ever won the seven most prestigious titles successively and he has an outstanding record of 74% of victories over the entire span of his career.
Since 1995, he has taken a keen interest in chess, and notwithstanding the little time he has had to study our game, he has already scored an International Master norm. This took place in what was only his second official tournament, the open of St Quentin (France) in April 2001.
The tournament at the NAO Chess Club is being held every day from the 13th until the 21st of May 2002, with rounds starting at 2.00 pm and ending at 8.00 pm. It is a round-robin of category IV (average rating 2336). Let's see if Mr Habu can reach the magical score of six points out of nine, which would yield him his second IM norm!
Other participants in this event will include the legendary Grandmaster Mark Taimanov and the 12-year old prodigy from France Edouard Bonnet.
After the tournament, on the 22nd of May, Mr Habu will give a simultaneous display of Shogi on ten boards, at the Japanese Embassy in Paris.
All the information on this event is available in French on the website of the NAO Chess Club at www.nao-cc.com . There will be live coverage of the games together with daily reports, photos, interviews and much more.
In organising this unique contest, the NAO Chess Club wishes not only to strengthen the cultural ties between Japan and France, but also to bring together two magnificent games for the benefit of both.
Organisation: NAO Chess Club - Phone: +33-1-40727690. Email: nao-cc@wanadoo.fr
INTERVIEW WITH YOSHIHARU HABU
This interview was conducted by GM Joel Lautier, with the kind assistance of Mariko Sato for the translation, on the 15th of May 2002 at the NAO Chess Club in Paris.
Joel Lautier: When and how did you learn to play chess?
Yoshiharu Habu: About ten years ago, I bought a book on chess and learned the game on my own. It was a Shogi player, Mr Murooka [the same person who first introduced me to Shogi! - JL], himself a passionate chessplayer, who aroused my interest in this game. And then six years ago, I started playing games on a regular basis with Mr Jacques Pineau [Jacques Pineau is a Frenchman who has been living in Japan for many years, with a chess playing strength of approximately 2250. He is also the president of the Asaka Chess Club, located in the suburbs of Tokyo - JL]. We play an average of one or two games a month, and I also read chess magazines to keep up to date. I have learned a bit of theory, but together with Mr Pineau, we have always tried to understand how to think in chess rather than just learn.
Lautier: That is still very little practice for such remarkable progress. What areas of chess do you find most difficult to master?
Habu: I find that the most difficult is to adapt oneself all the time to the changing rhythm of a chess game. A position may demand either fast and energetic action, or much quieter positional play, or something else still. Having to switch from fast play to a slower one and vice versa is the most unsettling for me. In Shogi, the rhythm of a game is much more stable. The opening is usually rather slow, whereas endgames are always a speed race [what Shogi players call "endgames" are in fact mating attacks! There is no such thing as endings in Shogi, since taken pieces can come back into the game at any moment, thus the game does not tend towards simplification - JL]. The rhythm of Shogi never slows down, it only accelerates.
Lautier: Do you find chess more, or less complex than Shogi?
Habu: Before I learned how to play chess, I thought the two games had to be very similar. I think now that they are very different. In chess, it's important to have a good position, whereas in Shogi, it's more important to be the first one who delivers checkmate! I couldn't say which of the two is more complex.
Lautier: Do you have ambitions in chess? Do you plan to become a Grandmaster?
Habu: Most of all, I wish to be able to play chess during my free time, and have the chance to play Grandmasters. If you ask me whether I think I can become a Grandmaster, then I honestly don't know. If I keep progressing and I realise that it is within my reach, then I shall try.
Lautier: Who is your favorite chessplayer?
Habu: Bobby Fischer. My first chess books were about him and his games are the ones I studied most.
Lautier: Do you think chess could become popular in Japan?
Habu: Among developed countries, Japan is perhaps the only one where chess is little known.
Nonetheless, the Japanese like very much this kind of games, they have excellent natural abilities for them. However, there is a great lack of information about chess in Japan. If a tournament with the participation of the best players in the world was organized there, it could have a strong impact on the publicity of chess in my country.
Lautier: Do you think chess and Shogi are sports ?
Habu: Chess is certainly a sport. For Shogi, it is a bit different, since it is part of the Japanese traditional culture, along with the tea ceremony and Ikebana, the Japanese floral art. During the Edo era [from 1603 until 1868 - JL], there were only three families who played Shogi, and the Master of the game was called Meijin. However, this title could only be inherited, and it has only been a century since the title of Meijin is contested in a real competition.
Lautier: The world of chess is very prone to conflicts whereas the Shogi world seems much more united and organised. Have you any advice to give FIDE?
Habu: (Laughs) No, no, I cannot give any advice! But it is much simpler for the small Shogi federation to remain united, as it only comprises 130 professional players. Moreover, these are all players from one country, which avoids many of the political problems within FIDE. The great size of FIDE makes consensus more difficult, all the more since it is partly made of people who are not chess professionals but have other activities. The Shogi Renmei (the Shogi federation) is composed exclusively of professional players, active and retired, who also handle the whole organisation of tournaments and the contracts with the sponsors. It's actually the case in many other federations in Japan, namely in martial arts. A person who has never been a professional in a given field cannot be part of the federation that regulates it [a very healthy principle to meditate ! -JL].
Lautier: How popular is Shogi in Japan?
Habu: Shogi has been very popular in Japan for a long time. Until 30 years ago, the Japanese people used to play in a room that led to the garden, traditionally reserved for this activity. Today, Shogi can be played everywhere! The number of people who know the rules of Shogi can be roughly estimated at ten million, the number of those who play regularly must be around a hundred thousand.
Lautier: Let's talk about women! Do they play Shogi?
Habu: Yes, they also play Shogi. There are two separate professional categories for men and women. There are approximately fifty full-time women professional players (there are 130 among men). In professional competitions among men, only one or two women players can take part. This is only the case since seven or eight years ago, before that women could not participate in them. Over that period of time, these women have played about two hundred games against their male colleagues with a success rate of 30%.
Lautier: Are computers a threat for Shogi ?
Habu: In mating problems, called Tsume Shogi, the computer is already superior to the best players. In normal games, however, the computer is still far from the professional level. Its level can be compared to a 4-dan among amateurs [approximately 2300 strength in chess Elo terms. The first dan among professionals starts after the amateur 6-dan. To get a rough idea, the best Shogi players in the world, including Mr Habu, have a ranking of professional 9-dan - JL].
Lautier: Thank you for answering our questions and good luck!
Further information is available at the
"Michael Jordan tried it with baseball, and it, like, didn't work out too well for him"
I think that, like, the submitter, like, of this story like kinda like talks like a 14 year old girl, like.
I posted to
Chess equivalent Strategy: When your opponent is distracted and not focusing on the chess board, one must use a 'quick arm flick to the side area, move your captured pieces and put back them back into play'. Alternate strategy, but as effective, is to remove opponent pieces "out" of play.
Subtlety is the key to success.
Important reminder: during gameplay, you are 'physically' at all times one arms length away from opponent's fist.
Every time this gets posted, I think to myself: "Damn, that sums up everything I've hated about Slashdot and the people that frequent it." There's actually a name for these types of losers, and it's IT MAJORS.
Shogi sounds like it would fit the /. crowd...lotsa mating problems
*ba-dum pish*
(It's a joke. laugh.)
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
FWIW, shogi is far more fun than chess and more interesting too.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
If Shogi is too complicated for you to learn, there is the other far east variant called kung fu chess. Where the martial arts meets with chess.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
See the word "Shogi" in the story? See how it's underlined? Know what that means?
If anyone wants to play some Chess, Xiangqi (chinese chess), Go or some other boardgames online then you should check out this site. Unfortunately they don't have Shogi (yet).
Whats a nice free (GPL preferred, Beer otherwise) Shogi varient for Win32 and Linux?
when you capture an enemy piece, you can bring it back into play for your side.
Sounds very much like Taliban fighters!
The thing is, is that chess is sufficiently small in dimensions and variety of pieces that it achieves a certain sparness of balance compared to Shogi, which is more complex in a variety of ways.
A good way for testing computer intelligence would to have a computer playing shogi, and become expert in it's use. Point being here is that there are not alot of western experts in Shogi, and so the possibility for an AI to learn the game beyond the obvious potemtial knoledge of the western experts is interesting
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Lautier: Do you think chess and Shogi are sports ?
Habu: Chess is certainly a sport....
Ok, this is my pet peeve I get on when I've got too much time on my hands. Chess is not a SPORT. Its a game--a rather complex and intricate game, but a game nonetheless. Neither is golf a sport. (actually, this argument usually starts with someone saying golf is a sport--I use chess as a comparison). Just because something shows up on ESPN doesn't mean its a sport. Pool and poker, for example...
Anybody disagree?
Sport used to mean something done without being necessary, such as the king hunting for sport.
My definition is pretty much the same; game is just another name for sport. However, it seems to me that the modern definition of most people is "big business with a ball".
Infuriate left and right
"Nonetheless, the Japanese like very much this kind of games, they have excellent natural abilities for them."
Asians are good at math AND Shogi!
GNUShogi:h tml
o gi.html
http://www.gnu.org/directory/gnushogi.
XShogi:
http://www.gnu.org/software/xshogi/xsh
GNUShogi comes with tutorial.
I think you can quess the license.
Larry Kaufman was an IM level chess player in the US who tried to get the game shogi to catch on in this country back in the early 1980s. Although I was pathetic at both, it was easier to get him interested in my learning shogi than learning chess.
Although this has a stronger French connection than American connection, it could be the start of a process that could finally get shogi an appropriate level of recogniztion here. Shogi is much more of an action game than chess. Pieces dropping in from the sky, possibly promoting the move after they drop in. Yikes! Shogi has a much more traditional handicapping system for matching stronger and weaker players.
The handicapping system is combined with traditional educational/learning pattern of how to win at certain handicaps. Once you have mastered a certain level of advantage, you can move to the next one against anyone, thereby seeing progress.
Try the game if you have the patience to learn it. Maybe someone can post an on-line shogi-playing site?
I think it was called "Searching for Yoshiharu Habu."
Which will be easier to get solved by computers (or quantic computers) shogi or chess?
Chess possible games are almost infinite but we know the number. Are shogi posible positions higher than chess?
Lautier: Are computers a threat for Shogi ?
Habu: In mating problems, called Tsume Shogi, the computer is already superior to the best players. In normal games, however, the computer is still far from the professional level. Its level can be compared to a 4-dan among amateurs [approximately 2300 strength in chess Elo terms. The first dan among professionals starts after the amateur 6-dan. To get a rough idea, the best Shogi players in the world, including Mr Habu, have a ranking of professional 9-dan - JL].
This is one example of the prevailing sad state of affairs of the performance of AI in games. The best chessplaying programs are those which use brute force search and little else. The fact that they can beat world champions tells us little except that the effective branching factor in chess is small. In games like go and shogi where the branching factor is much higher, long-term strategy counts much more, and brute-force is relatively useless, computers are nowhere near the best humans.
Another example: As early as 1962 Samuels wrote a checker playing program which could learn from its previous games and beat reasonably strong humans. After that there has been virtually no progress in game strategy; all the improvement has been in hardware speed. Indeed, it wasn't until 1994 that the first wold-champion-beating checker player, "Chinook" was written. This is an amazingly slow rate of progress compared to other areas of computer science/technology.
Its a shame, considering that game playing is thought to be one of the easiest problem domains for AI.
Actually, he doesn't seem to be an IM, as the intro says, but just has one IM norm. Considerable difference.
Michael Jordan tried it with baseball ? it, like, didn't work out. Yes, it's very rare to find someone who really excel in more than one field. I've read somewhere that chess GM Simen Agdestein, top Norwegian chess player, had been a member od Norwegian national soccer team. Sir George Thomas was also a British chess champion and badminton champion. Anybody know more examples?
Makes no sense all the flames about chess, shogi, go and so on. More challenging than all these games is "How does one live their life." Now that is the ultimate game/challenge. Can a computer do that? Life is a far greater game than chess or any variation there of.
Use Yahoo IM and Google? Try YIMGoogle
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back.
The link to kungfuchess is as on topic as the next post (which was rated +3) and is also interesting.
There is a couple programs to play shogi - If you are on a normal system, GNU Shogi.
People cursed to be on a windoze platform might check out Shocky
If you prefer tactile response, you may want to go here instead.
aem
-a.e.mossberg
Hey... Michael Jordan was an acceptable minor league player. Not a prospect, but how many of us have the talent to play professional baseball?
I like to give a plug for this book every now and then: Why Michael Couldn't Hit: And Other Tales of the Neurology of Sports. Even if you don't care at all about sports, this book is a fascinating read. It describes how the brain and neurology is linked with being a world-class athlete. What I found especially interesting is that the author makes a good case that there are small windows during growing up where you must play a particular sport in order to be world-class at it. If you miss the window, you miss your chance. After that, your brain does not have plasticity to devote a specialized part of itself to the sport. He also makes the case that being a world-class musician has similar windows.
I would imagine that there are similar cases to be made about being world-class at a particular mental sport such as chess.
Highly recommended.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
There have been a number of "Game prodigies" who excelled at several games. Omar Sharif, for example, who was a bridge, chess and checkers champion. Learning any one of these games is like learning a programming language--it makes it much easier to learn a second. If you know one language you will find it much easier to pick-up a second programming language than a complete beginner.
--
I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me - Churchill
Comparing Jordan's success to Habu's isn't exactly fair or even valid. The differences between Shogi and Chess aren't all that great, especially when you compare the differences between basketball and baseball.
The only thing that seperates Shogi and Chess are the rules, pieces and board on which the game is played. At their cores, both games are turn based and both require the player to think several moves in advance to be even remotely successful. If the players knows the rules and has that skill, the jump is relatively easy to make, especially one of Habu's caliber.
Basketball to baseball? Entirely different story. Not only are the rules, pieces (players) and field of play different, but now you have to deal with an entirely new set of physical conditionings as well. Sure, Jordan is fit, but instead of a 3-pointer or jam, your now asking him to hit a small round object moving in excess of 80mph with a stick. The author of the artical doesn't seem to think that's a worthy challenge in and of itself.
I guess what I'm saying is that chess and Shogi are purely games of the mind. If you have that extreemly valuble skill of looking ahead to your next 5-15 moves, the transition isn't as great. But add some sort of mental/physical reconditioning on top of that? I'd humbly submit that it's slightly more challenging to up and switch.
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Demis Hassabis, who co-created Theme Park and whose company, Elixir Studios, is currently at work on Republic - the Revolution is a strong amateur shogi player. (OK, strong by Western standards.) He won five out of six (even, as opposed to handicapped) games in the British Open Championship the weekend before last and so has qualified to be part of the team to represent the UK in the World Championship later in the year. It's not much of an exaggeration to say Demis is a strong amateur * player - because if he isn't a strong amateur at a game yet, he's proved that he will pick it up frighteningly quickly - though I understand his poker isn't going to be taking him to the World Series in the near future.
Good luck Demis! (...and Stephen and Les...)
This is more like a baseball player going to softball, or a heavyweight boxer going lightweight. Shogi is much harder. The board is larger (9 by 9) and peices can be re-used, both increasing the complexity of the game. There is no queen on the battlefield, nor a piece that is as strong and could be used to go on a rampage.
If chess is the thinking man's checkers, Shogi looks like the thinking man's chess.
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If I was the only one to have failed to notice that the first time I might consider being embarrassed at redundantly trying to help.
The article says he has got an IM norm. That means he needs another norm to become an IM. Still, it's amazing improvement. Especially since I play chess recreationally (ie. I suck at it but I still play :-) it seems absolutely amazing!!
There have been other successful examples of individuals "crossing" sports. Jonty Rhodes who is a cricket international for South Africa, used to play for the South African hockey team as well. It shows as he was probably the best athlete in cricket in the nineties. In first decade of the 20th century, C.B.Fry represented England in both its cricket and soccer teams. Of course, Deion Sanders was reasonably successful at baseball to complement his football.
Wow, you sure are stupid.
You didn't supply a definition of "sport", so how can anybody agree with you? Unless you think the definition of sport is "Not everything that is on ESPN", which is an extremely poor definition. Please try harder next time.
If it doesn't involve moving an object across a distance into some goal zone through a space defended by the opposing team, it is not a "sport".
Basketball, football, water polo, baseball (the object is the player; the ball is the weapon of the defenders), rugby, even that screwed up dead goat Afghani game all qualify.
The farther you get from this game definition, the harder a time people have defining something as a sport.
Sport is spoken of in the context of competition, but understood in the context of a very tightly defined game style that appears to show up cross-culturally. Interestingly enough, nobody would care about the "not a sport" thing if it wasn't from the massive legitimacy boost brought by sport-participation.
People are funny.
--Dan
Go is Chinese, Shogi is Japanese.
Wrong. Both of them are Japanese:
Sho-Gi: Sho means "General(s)", Gi means "Chess" (i.e., chess of the Generals)
Go: simply means five
This is the funniest signature I could ever think of.
Wrong. Both of them are Japanese
Go is Chinese (where the game is known as Wei Qi). It was developed three to four thousand years ago and wasn't brought to Japan until around 1200-1400 years ago. I believe in Japan the game is known as Igo.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
unless I'm very much mistaken...
I heard before that the origins of the Chess we know actually seeped over from China back in the 4th century, most likely brought back as 'culture' booty. Is there any truth to this?
I would not call shogi an odd game. The drops alluded to above are what make the game interesting. Chess is just too "all analytical". Shogi at least has some bits that are based on intuition. Go on the other hand... so much intuition. It's beautiful.
I'd say that of the three games, a shogi master would find it easiest to master chess. Chess probably couldn't master shogi as easily, and neither could master go all that readily.