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Ethernet Via Electric Conduits
windows bios world writes "From a CNet article NYC businesses will be able to get internet access via ethernet routed through electrical conduits from a subsidiary of Con Edison. CEC is targeting business customers and telecommunications carriers with its PowerLan Ethernet services as part of a larger strategy to become the premier provider of high-bandwidth transport services for New York." Interesting that a non-telecommunications firm can parley a single asset (right-of-way in existing conduits in the crowded tunnels under Manhattan) into a business.
Interesting that a non-telecommunications firm can parley a single asset (right-of-way in existing conduits in the crowded tunnels under Manhattan) into a business.
Sprint was created when the Southern Pacific Railway realized that they could take advantage of their railway rights-of-way to lay fiber-optic cable.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
Reminds me of another project where they installed fiber optic cable through sewer lines so they didn't have to tear up the streets. They are at City Net. I wonder what is next? Power through my cable tv line?
Sorry, I'm currently sick and reading a foreign-language news article just doesn't clear the subject for me. So, tell me this isn't a real-world application of the technique to send data over power lines, is it? They're using their control cables or stuff instead?
Gigabit class bandwidth over copper while there's Manhattan class power feed in the same lines... No way.
Back to sleep now
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
Electric pRon!
I don't remember where but in the past I read something about a city that tried something like this till they discovered that faint blinking in the city's streetlamps was enough needed to snoop on the data being transferred through it.
sounds like the work of the guy who's been scamming large companies for years now. he has made claims to be able to transmit bandwidth through power strips, through a new wireless method, etc. What
it amounted to was a vcr and a whole lot of coax
cable.
I'm too tired to find the article but there actually was one - I think on CNN. Nobody's sued him yet because investors are loathe to admit they've been swindled so easily. Hell I can't even wait to login correctly. Anyways someone here will find the appropo article..
This is definitely shocking news. :)
http://kubik.ru
In Germany we have this "ready to go" and "coming the next couple months" for several years now. It is called Powerline. Due to recent rumours you still get little offs for starting e.g. a vacuum cleaner (not that I need Internet access for cleaning the house) and you are limited in the possibilities when connecting your whole appartment complex. Given that the very big company promoting it, namely RWE, considers cannelling it altogether.
Now combine this with what DSL in Germany is, mainly by the ex monopolist. We had impulse dialling phones here for a very long time (and some old people still have). They can disturb DSL traffic going over a phone line, even if as far away as "the same building" (according to Telekom Inc.). So they give you DSL lines with Interleaving and you end up with ping times of at least 60 ms.
Expect ping times of that network there to be higher.
So, slashdotters, many of You are gamers. You will lose on that line. Sad to say it out loud, but You will all die in RTCW et. al. and your only help will be: look outside your windows and remember what you see. Its name is "Ground Zero". This is New York and starting there is not the most patriotic way of launching this service if you expect gamers (as early adopters) to hop on.
Turku Energia (a local energy company in Finland) also announced (link in Finnish) a similar product couple of days ago.
They are offering a 1.125 Mbps Internet access and they are planning for a product including a telephone line (VoIP), electricity and broadband Internet access all from a single electricity outlet. The service would also make it possible to introduce LANs into old buildings without installing any cables.
In the testing phase they had some problems with interference but they report those problems being solved now.
Back in the mid-80s I was doing networking down on Wall St. and we needed to connect ethernet LANs in two buildings that were about 100 yards apart.
We looked into running cable, but the rights-of-way were not available. We looked into getting dark fiber, but NY Telephone said they were not tarrifed to let us have it (although there was in fact dark fiber already in the buildings).
Then we talked to a company that would run the cable using their right-of-way. That company was (if I recall correctly) called "Metropolitan City Subway" and had nothing whatsoever to do with the subways. Their sole reason for existence, so far as I could tell, was to rent people parts of their right-of-way, which they had obtained I have no idea how.
They proposed letting us run a cable between the buildings but not directly. We would have to go down to the tip of Manhattan and back again. Instead of 100 yards it was about 4 miles. They also wanted to charge us $20K per month, and had few safety provisions in place to guarantee that our cable wouldn't suddenly be cut by their or other workers.
Based on the long cable run, the costs, and the uncertainty, we passed, and I ended up installing the first microwave ethernet link in Manhattan instead (24GHz microwave between two ethernet bridges). Which worked fine and required no right-of-way...
LAN/Internet via the powerlines has alreay been tried in Germany, in the Ruhr-Gebiet to be specivic (for non Germans: Ruhr-Gebiet = area in Germany where lots of big cities are REALLY close to each other), too. :(
Unfortunately it didnt seem to work out that well, they had tons of problems with interferences in the lines (limiting bandwith and causing total network failurse every few weeks) and that the bandwith per user slowly dwindled into 56k areas since too many people signed up for the field test (and I dont even want to mention ping times here, gamers stay away!)
To cut a long story short, even though the German Telekom dominated the internet sector with their crappy and expensive service and people were looking for alternatives, the field test for powerline from the electicity companies failed and was ended last month...
+++ MELON MELON MELON +++ Out of Cheese Error +++ redo from start +++
Another example of slashdot readers not bothering to read the article. This is not about ConEd using internet over electric lines. It is about them using their existing "right-of-way" to go the "last mile" instead of Verizon.
I also want to point out that this is the work of Con Edison Communications which IS a telecommunications company even though Michael doesn't believe it. Obviously even he didn't read the article.
This is simply using the conduit (the containers of electrical wires) to house network cables.
Their advantage is that they have existing right of way all over the city and they have spare room to lay in new cables (new fiber or copper).
"Our diverse network backbone truly makes CEC a 'smart alternative' to incumbent carriers in New York," Chief Executive Peter Rust said in a release. CEC already offers T1 and T3 services (private connections for high-speed Internet access) over its conduits and said it has 100 buildings on its network.
T1 and T3 are private connections? Don't think so. If Mr. Rust is referring to DSL services, then he may be correct, otherwise, he has no clue as to what his company is even providing. ADSL(average throttle *dnld* is approx 1.544 Mbps(T1) upload is not even close(around 300-600 kbps))-Also the cost differences for private DSL and business-grade DSL is tremendous. For ADSL=approx $80 depending on where you live, T1=A fractional T1 can cost you over $50 per 64k channel(24)and for full T1, you're looking @ $500-$1000 depending on provider options. Let's not even get into T3's(these day's, with so much fiber unlit, it's not unheard of to get an OC-3(3 Optical Channel T3's) for the price of a single T3.
If I were you, I'd stick with Verizon, at least they know what they're selling.
Funny rumor, this entry really stinks. STOP REPORTING trivia like this forever!
The article talks about using the underground conduits to pass communication cables in addition to the electric wires, not about transmitting data over the power lines.
Powerline communication is nice, but it can't quite compete with fiber.
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
By your stupidity I presume you're a yank, in which case we're still waiting for any of you to take part in the game, you prefer wanking off at home maybe, faggots.
What happened to all those folks lamenting the terrible state of affairs here in the US due to the monopolistic practices of big corporations.
I thought it was IMPOSSIBLE to have a new internet provider due to these monopolistic practices.
Amazing, eh? Perhaps quick innovations like this will help statists of all varities to think twice before they claim the free market is incapable of serving the needs of the people. This is just a few WEEKS after provisions of the 1996 telecommunications act was struck down by the supreme court.
Imagine what will happen in a year. Or ten.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
Williams Communications was a gas and petroleum pipeline company with 100,000 miles of right-of-way. In 1985, they started putting fiber in decommissioned pipelines.
They now have the "largest fully-lit, U.S. next-generation network with local-to-global connectivity, linking 125 cities and reaching five continents."
Oh I just love europeans and their funny little dialects. Its so quaint! I always wonder if they talk that way in their little cottages after the town fair where they all got completely wasted.
Ahh, nothing beats a drunken european.
Especially in Spain where the age of consent is still 12!
I don't read or respond to AC posts
Please mod this sick mother fucker who preys on young homeless Spainish boys.
Dear mr. American, your version of English is actually a dialect in itself.. coming from Britain, which is European.. just like the ancestors of EVERY caucasean or latin american. You shouldn't mock your roots so easily..
I used to be pretty excited about developments like Ethernet over powered electrical wiring in houses, etc.
But lately I have to wonder about the economic viability of any communications technology that makes use of fixed lines.
It seems to me that wireless communications is constantly getting better and cheaper, while anything over land lines has to contend with the cost of installing and maintaining those lines. In the case of lines that already exist, they're mostly copper and too limited in bandwidth.
Unless you've got something where the high speed of fiber optic links is critical, then it seems like small, low power, wireless cells linking into a few fixed access points to optical land lines is the way to do things.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
The important issue here is that Ethernet services can be delivered over an already developed infrastructure. How many people worldwide have access to normal telephone services (something like less than 30 percent, if I remember correctly)? Yet, how many people worldwide have access to normal power lines (about 87 percent)!
While wireless technologies are being developed, for long range hauls (1000s of miles) it is still relatively expensive to deploy into remote areas of the world. The idea is that once stable communications can be delivered over a power grid network, we can reach over 50 percent more people in the world!
I hope they succeed!
Back in the '70s and early '80s, the Williams company of Tulsa Oklahoma started laying fiber in their oil and gas pipelines. It made perfect sense since they had the right of way. Thus, the Wiltel network was born (later to be absorbed into Worldcom.)
burris
The Lower Colorado River Authority, which is
a non-government agency here in central Texas
that deals mainly with dams and power
generation, has a fiber (and microwave
and trunk radio) data network used for
managing its power distribution, and it has
been selling bandwidth on that network for
years. I'm sure they're not the first one
either. It seems to be a relatively common
thing.
for sale. Shelved working prototype was proven
having >50 Mbits/sec bidirectional analog/digital
capabilities. for more information on the
inventor go to biography at
http://colossalstorage.net
You mean like their subsidiary, Con Edison Communications, which already leases T1 and T3? Yeah, that's a non-telecom firm.
Of course, everyone's in the telecom business these days.
This brings to mind a SF short story from a series writen in the 1930's. A power transmision company thought that they had a right to own data transmission as well. BTW, it was partly this series and Heinleins juvy stuff that got me into math. Immediatly after reading "The Rolling Stones", i grabbed my dads math books and tought myself calculus. I was 13. Smith's Venus Equalateral stories inspiered me to solve the centripital force problem at 14. The technology in the Venus Equalateral stories might be a bit dated, but the thought behind them is not. It was this clear logic that lead Smith to predict 65 years ago, the power companies attempt to make a grab at communications.
So, how will the switching be done? I mean you can't send data for one peer to the whole city.
And I suppose you will also have to use some tranceivers that would separate the 110/220 from the network data and modulate it in the other direction. This means it's not Ethernet any more.
This all sounds plausible. We were considering switching our cat-5 backbone to the electrical cabling, but the diagnostics would have been a whole new world. I mean, with the AC, the network model gets even more complex, because not only does your network have to handle new computers, new IPs, new MACs, etc. but you also have to deal with "users" plugging in their coffee grinders, custodians running their high powered vacuums and floor buffers, as well as the next door construction crew running their mitre saws, etc. If that extra "random" noise won't confuse the hell out of a network admin, then he deserves the credit of "ethernet god" without hesitation.
Seriously, Edison probably can handle all this with error correction and their own special network adapters. But what I'm curious about is the range of broadcasts. Will Edison implement switches for connecting these corporate users/networks, or will everyone in the same grid see each other's traffic like the cable broadband network model? Then we run into snarfing issues.
Another question is how will Edison handle subnets? If everyone is sharing the same AC loop (like the old coax network model) where would the bridge points be? Obviously Edisons router would be one. But what if a corporate lan wanted to also use the AC cable as its backbone? Then you have competition between the Edison router and the corporate lan router since there would no longer be a one-way-in-one-way-out traffic model. One would hope they don't share IP addresses between the lan and Edison. And even worse, what if there is more than one corporation on the same Edison AC network whom also wants to implement their own AC backbone?
I suspect Edison will require that their network have exclusive usage of the traffic traveling over your AC if you want to be a customer. I also suspect that corporate users will be sharing their AC connection amongst other Edison corporate clients.
...small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri...
It is putting cable in the same conduit (or pipe to the electrically challenged). Yeah, it was mentioned before, but I think people are misunderstanding the article.
Ya know, I seem to remember the Telegraph companies did somethin' along these lines with the railroads (not with conduit, however). Western Union at one point had 80% of the telegraph business and said that it's near monopolistic trade was in everyone's best interest because it was consistent. Hmmm, wonder where I've heard that before.
Will Con Ed learn from history?
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
Amoung other things, I work in construction and help architects and contractators design networks in new facilities. I am not an electrictian, but it's always been a cardinal no-no to run CAT-5 (or just about anything) in the same conduit as high power lines. This has been done in a few cases, and the interference from the power cables (regardless of sheilding) results in a noticable packet loss.
The article is a little vauge as to what kind of cables they want to lay, and what sort of pre-existing conduit they are using (there is multi-channel conduit which should work fine). It almost alludes to simply trenching along the same right-of-ways as existing conduit and laying new pipe.
But on the surface, the implication is that they will be pulling cable sitting alongside high power lines, which will probably give them some unhappy customers.
The Internet is generally stupid
If they use the power lines for data, theres something about running data down an unshielded line along with 120/240/480/7,200/110,000 volts of electricity that just shouts "High Error Rate".
If they run a data cable alongside a high voltage line, the energy field emitted by the power line will most likely corrupt data traveling down the adjacent data cable.
As is the person who wrote the article. There is NO way they could use the actual "conduit" that runs throughout the subway and sewer systems.
Reasons?
1. According to the NEC (national electrical Code, ALL conduit containing power wires must be GROUNDED - i.e. if you tried running signals THROUGH the conduit, it would go nowhere!
2. Even if the conduit were NOT grounded, there are poor electrical connections between secitions of conduit. Almost all condiut installations use a sort of lubricating grease (usually called "penetrox") to keep moisture out of the conduit and seal up the joints....so conductivity isn't the best.....
3. The NEC would NEVER allow for electrical/power signals to be run through electrified conduits for the mere fact that people could get electrocuted!
I believe that everyone here is misunderstanding the article. I don't believe that the author is referring to running networks signals directly over the actual CONDUIT, rather than the POWER wires.
I posted a reply earlier in this thread stating the reasons:
1. The NEC (National Electrical Code) specifically states that all power conductor carrying conduits must be grounded in case of a short circuit. So essentially even if they tried to send a signal through the "conduit" it would go directly to earth (even if they tried to use pipes, etc - almost every installation is grounded).
2. Even if the installation they were using WASN'T grounded, the NEC wouldn't allow for this - there is the possibility of people being electrocuted. Secondly, the connection joints between fittings (such as conduit and pipe), aren't the greatest. They usually have reduced conductivity due to some sort of lubricating grease between them.
I believe that they are talking about running the signals through the power lines (which is what the railroads, and power industry have been doing for a long time already). All you do is modulate a signal at a different carrier frequency than 60Hz. The arguements that people have been using that the "lights flash and disrupt radio signals, blah blah blah" would be irrelavant in this situation since the "runs" are underground already - and shieleded by a LOT of "earth."
Buttcunt crapflooder! Snort a Jew, you asstard tulipmonger! Suck a duck and choke on anuslicking cocksnot, you monkeyfuck.
cracking through ICE
united networks http://unitednetworks.co.nz/display.asp?PageID=84 - did this several years ago. There are several ISP's offering service over there own VLANs on the network, as well as businesses using it to interconnect there offices in a similarway.
They have run 10baseF?? via fibre in old gas mains around the CBD.
I wonder what is next? Power through my cable tv line?
Too late.
Several models of Sterivision hospital TV sets use that already. These are the easily-removed pay-to-watch-Jerry-Springer-from-your-deathbed TV sets that hospitals charge for.
Since they're installed only on demand, they have to be simple and easy to connect... one wire. They seem to run off 12VDC driven down the coax. Isolating the RF for the tuner is a simple matter of a couple of small capacitors.
Lots of TV antenna amplifiers also use a technique like this to avoid having to run power and coax wires up a (possibly tall) TV antenna tower. Radio Shack used to sell such a system.
Of course, the practical current is limited only by the resistance of the coax. (Resistance is *not* impedance, don't confuse 75 ohm impedance with the DC resistance of the cable.) If someone built superconductive coax, there'd be no DC resistance, and you could power your house and get RoadRunner cable Interet on the same wire... :)
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Their only real asset was right of way along side rail road tracks...