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Is it Wrong to Accept an Employment Counter-Offer?

An Anonymous Coward asks: "I was happily working away at a low-paying but otherwise good job I'd had for several months, after taking a huge pay cut when the dot.bomb bubble burst. Then a recruiter contacted me with a very nice potential position - I interviewed and received an offer with a 50% increase in pay, everything else nearly the same. When I received the offer and decided I was interested, I broke the news to my current employer - to my surprise they extended a counter-offer with a matching salary, thereby eliminating my only reason for considering the other job. However, I talked to some friends and checked the web for ideas and realized that there are a *lot* of ppl out there who believe you should never accept a counter-offer. They make some good points, and there are a lot of those pages - but on the web popularity breeds increased popularity, in a self-feeding cycle, so I'm wondering if the numbers are skewed unrealistically. Is it really that rare to do well by accepting a counter-offer? Do Slashdot readers have experience with counter-offers from present employers, positive or negative?"

55 of 959 comments (clear)

  1. Why not earlier by rossz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If they gave a damn about you, why didn't they pay you more before? Will you need to get a new job offer every time you want a raise?

    --
    -- Will program for bandwidth
    1. Re:Why not earlier by shuffle40 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't be so naive. If you don't ask for a raise, you don't get it. When is the last time a company ever offered you a raise with no prodding (other than the usual token raise once per year)? I have had that happen, but it is definitely not the "norm". Ask and ye shall receive!

    2. Re:Why not earlier by Xzzy · · Score: 5, Informative

      > If they gave a damn about you, why didn't they pay you more before?

      I doubt there were any dirty motives behind the company not raising pay by leaps and bounds.

      It's in a company's best interest to pay workers as little as they can get away with. If said worker happens to be one of those quiet non-complaining sorts, it's easy to get lost in the paperwork and never see a raise.

      That does not by implication indicate they don't value the employee, nor are unwilling to pay more for the same employee. They're just being practical, and assuming that if no one is complaining then everyone is happy and there's no reason to rock the boat.

      Trying to keep the employee with a counter-offer is surely better than them shrugging it off and making sure the door doesn't hit him in the ass on the way out.

    3. Re:Why not earlier by FreeUser · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If they gave a damn about you, why didn't they pay you more before? Will you need to get a new job offer every time you want a raise?

      This is an excellent point. Furthermore, are they willing to give you back pay at the new rate, to make up for having underpaid you all that time?

      There are several problems with taking such a counter-offer:

      one - you can only do this once or twice before they stop giving you pay raises, and each iteration burns a bridge at a potentially new and exciting job, with new and better opportunities for you.

      two - if the recruiter gets burned (she or he will lose their commision [likely 30% of your new salary if they're an independent headhunter] if you take the counter-offer) you lose an ally if and when you really do want to switch jobs (you can bet they'll put a black mark in your file, and it will affect the service you get next time around.

      three - you'll still be in the same position you were before. No new opportunities, no new challenges, just more money (for now).

      four - you're in the same position for which your employer knows they can get people to fill at your old rate. Your days at your new pay level are likely numbered, and your odds of further pay raises are tiny. Your odds of further pay raises at your new position after six months or a year, provided you are doing a good job, are much better.

      five - your employer will, at some level, feel they've been strongarmed by you. This will adversely affect your long-term relationship with them regardless.

      six - you should go to the recruiter, tell them about the counter offer, and see if they can't give you a little more. I wouldn't necessarilly get the two sides in a bidding war (that might well leave your new employer with a bad taste in their mouth), but if they can outdo the counter-offer by a little bit, it might go a long way toward making your decision easier.

      IMHO if all things are equal, take the new job. The disadvantages I listed above are signficant, and there really would need to be a compelling reason to ignore them and take the counter offer, and having equal pay and the (quite possibly faux) comfort of not changing jobs isn't nearly enough IMHO.

      Of course, this advice is worth every penny you paid for it.

      --
      The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    4. Re: Why not earlier by Srin+Tuar · · Score: 4, Insightful


      Face it: his boss just admitted that he or she has been paying him less than he's worth to the company. Is that the kind of culture where he should want to work?


      Would you prefer to work at a company who spewed money at anyone for no reason? If they paid 100% tips at restraunts; A company that insisted upon paying double rent, and buying office supplies they dont use?


      Be serious: the company that pays you only the rate that they must to retain youre services is a company that plans to survive. (Assuming a free market). Thats a good company to be at.

    5. Re: Why not earlier by deebaine · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As far as the company knows, an employee who is silent is happy with his or her current salary. Sure, they could just throw money at all of their apparently happy employees, but is that the kind of culture where he should want to work (hint: see "dot-com bubble")?

      In other industries, offers and counteroffers are, if not commonplace, certainly not unusual. In investment banking and consulting, entire groups get raided, and companies go to great pains to keep their people, usually after a resignation letter is sitting on someone's desk. For someone with the requisite skills and knowledge, it seems to me that the leverage provided by such a letter represents a somewhat more compelling argument than the average request for some consideration.

      -db

    6. Re: Why not earlier by j-beda · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "That is a Marxist notion of profit."

      But it still has validity. In order to make a profit the company gets someone to pay them more for a product or service than it costs to provide that product or service. Obviously if this can be done, then on average, the various expenses (labour, capiol, etc.) that are required to provide the product or service have a value to the company that is slightly greater than the price that the company must pay to receive them from whoever is providing them.

      If one of those expenses increases in price (for example the workers get a raise) then either the company will have less profit or they will have to raise their prices to reflect their increased costs.

      Thus in some cases, the profit can be though of as coming from "underpaying" for some of the necessary expenses.

  2. Limated Experance by ThePilgrim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have had only one joub that offered me a counter offer, which I took. The Company went bancrupt 2 months later and I was out of a job.

    This probably wont happen to you, but you have to ask yourself why your last pay rise wasn't 50% if the you company is prepared to offer you this now.

    --
    Wouldn't it be nice if schools got all the money they wanted and the army had to hold jumble sales for guns
  3. With the way IT jobs are going... by MsGeek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...jump on whatever you can get. At least with the counter-offer you know what to expect. Jumping ship for another company, you run the risk of entering a completely different corporate culture than what you are used to at your current job.

    That's also a damn fine vote of confidence from your boss. I'd celebrate this weekend if I were you.

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
    1. Re:With the way IT jobs are going... by reaper20 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Not to mention the (+1, Loyalty) you'll get from your current emplyer

  4. Reminiscent of the good old days by ObviousGuy · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ah, back when a monkey could become a well-paid programmer... Those were the days.

    If you feel the company really wants you to stay and isn't simply keeping you around to finish the current project, then I'd say stay.

    The points on that page are very good, but it all really boils down to your relationship with your employer. If you feel like part of the team and you feel comfortable with the people you work with, stay. If you think this is just a ploy to give you your raise early and give you nothing when evaluations come around, then leave.

    --
    I have been pwned because my /. password was too easy to guess.
  5. Personal experience by _LORAX_ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't accept it. Unless they are going to give you a bonified legal employment contract.... why...

    Because otherwise you will be the first on their list when they are looking to get rid on someone to cut costs. You are not only disloyal ( not that companies are ever loyal to you ) but you are probably making more than others doing the same work.

    Trust me, it's a bad game to play unless you are willing to accept that your employer will always be wondering if you are going to jumo ship again.

  6. I would have to say it depends... by keep_it_simple_stupi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    On whether you really like the company you work for or not. If you think they'll screw you when the time comes for cuts or another raise in the future, then you should move on. If you dig the place you work for now, then take the money. Most of the arguments on that website are BS anyway - such as "you can be bought"... Well no $hit sherlock... This is why you work, to make money. And besides, this isn't 20 or 30 years in the past where companies are actually loyal to you, I say go for the best deal!

  7. Never accepted one by vluther · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've never accepted one before, simply because it's a temporary solution. The company was happy paying you less, and all of sudden you get more and they can pay you ?. I guess it depends on the situation, but if you've worked your ass off, and management didn't see a need to give you a raise until you threatened to leave em, it's just a sign that they'll keep you on temporarily until they find someone to replace you. Unless you're in Job nirvana(which cannot exist), I would move to the new place. Sure there are risks when you change jobs, but you have to see your situation and take the plunge.

    Never forget that these companies, will fire you even if you think the job is great and the people are great, they will fire you or.. rightsize you, if money is tight. They are in it for survival, and so are you.

    I have to say this, but your loyalty should be to yourself and your family, not to anonymous shareholders or board of directors that never have lunch with you.

    Take pride in your work, do it well, but do it for yourself, not the company.

    1. Re:Never accepted one by Christianfreak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think it really depends on the size of the company. And the attitude of the boss.

      I work at a small ISP. I'm in a high enough position here to know a bit about the finacial shape of the company. If a recruiter came along and asked me to leave for me to even consider would have to be a very very good offer, but supposing I did and my current boss offered to match I would take it in a heart beat.

      At my company there are no shareholders and stock prices. Just an owner. Actually an owner who is very interested in what I do and respects my opinion on techincal issues that she doesn't understand. She is here everyday, dealing with customers and helping employees and just taking a value in everyone.

      So in short I don't make as much money as some people in the industry but I don't have to worry about losing my job. And I really enjoy working here. I can't see my boss holding the want for a little more money against me, maybe I'm delusional but I think I have found a 'job nirvana'

  8. silly by mrm677 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. A good employer will do whatever it takes, within reasonable bounds, to hold onto good employees. You should accept that as a complement and stick with your current job if you are happy with it. Its risky changing jobs...you might end up with a lousy manager or the company culture may stink.

  9. Honesty worked for me by Dil+NaOH · · Score: 5, Informative

    I accepted a counter-offer from my current company three years ago when I had an opportunity to take a lucrative contracting position elsewhere. I told my boss that I had no desire to leave the company, but that I have a responsibility to my family to be the best provider for them that I can be. He accepted that explanation, tendered a counter-offer, and I chose to stay. I have survived two layoffs since.

    --
    Thank you for observing all safety precautions.
  10. Respect.... by leucadiadude · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Do you think you will retain it from your boss/co-workers?

    And do you have enough of it towards your boss to give your boss the chance to retain you?

    Seems only fair to give the person who hired you the chance to counter in good faith. By that I mean accept the counter and evaluate it honorably, don't give lip service about it. If it is a good offer be prepared to take it.

  11. Take it! by Telastyn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You probably could/should've demanded more before (though that's generally a no-no unless you threaten to go elsewhere) but I don't see why not to take the deal if you're happy with your job. While the other job "looks" the same, it likely isn't. Things that can make working miserable usually aren't seen until they are busy making you miserable.

  12. Depends on your situation by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You should have tried to get a raise first. That would have cleared a lot of things up. But that said, you didn't, so...

    If you are an important asset to the company that can't be easily replaced, you like your job, and your company trusts you, you might be able to get away with staying. If not you should be very hesitant.

    The problem is that you've already signalled to your company that you are thinking about leaving. If you're going to stay, you should assure them that money was the only problem, you made a mistake by not talking to them first, and you won't repeat that mistake in the future. Otherwise expect that they are going to start looking for your replacement immediately, and as soon as they find her that 50% increase will be meaningless.

    Don't listen to anyone who tells you definitively one way or another what to do. Only you know your specific situation, and how trustworthy your boss is.

  13. Get it in writing... by swordboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Your current employer may be simply up the creek with you gone. They might be planning to replace you at their convienience at a later time. Since they need you up until then, they might just offer you an equivalent salary.

    My advice: this is a great time to visit a labor lawyer and write up a termination contract. Just put something down about your termination on a "non-performance" basis. This way, if they decide to fire you without documentation of poor performance, then you will have a termination clause (just ask for like 6 months of pay or something like that).

    There would be no reason for your current employer not to sign the contract since they are supposedly matching the offer based on your performance. It guarantees them that you will perform as well in the future and it guarantees you that your job won't disappear without a hefty severance.

    --

    Life is the leading cause of death in America.
  14. Don't get too hung up on principle by kevin42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think that list is a bunch of crap. Companies don't just pay what they think you are worth, they pay what they think will keep you working for them up until the point they think you aren't worth the money you want.

    In otherwords if you accepted the job for $40k and they know you are worth $100k, most companies aren't going to walk over and say "you know, you are underpaid, here's $60k a year more." No, they will say "great job, here's a $5k a year raise!

    But when it comes down to you demanding more, or telling them you are leaving they will pay you what they need to in order to keep you.

    Too many people look at employment as a personal relationship, but it is much better for everyone to remember that it is a bussiness relationship for both the employee and employer.

  15. Statistics. by saintlupus · · Score: 4, Funny

    [From the article:]

    * Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.

    Well, hey, with rock-solid information like that to go on, I'd be a fool to accept a counteroffer.

    After all, if you can't accept vague, unsubstatiated, unaccountable claims on the Internet as gospel, you just can't trust anyone.

    --saint

    1. Re:Statistics. by b_pretender · · Score: 5, Funny
      After all, if you can't accept vague, unsubstatiated, unaccountable claims on the Internet as gospel, you just can't trust anyone.

      At first read, I thought it was rather vague, too. However, upon closer inspection, they use the adjective extremely, thus cleaning up any uncertainties about those extremely high probabilities.

      As far as being unsubstatiated or unaccountable claims, perhaps you missed the first word, statistics. Statistics show these claims, thus substatiating them. The statistics are accountable for the probabilities.

  16. Re:Take the Counter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Mostly people leave for other reasons than just money. Since in this case it's only about money , you can take the counter. In those other situations, money turns out to be incapable of making up for the downsides of the job.

  17. Asymmetry of perceptions by sphealey · · Score: 5, Interesting
    There are a few companies out there that are honest enough in their internal culture to treat offers and counter-offers as pure business propositions. Cypress Semiconductor was rumoured to be one such, although I don't know personally.

    However, 99.99% of organizations will behave exactly as the 10 reasons describe. Yes, I know, it was corporate employers who destroyed the idea of corporate loyalty in the 1980s. It is corporate employers who dump their long-timers to reduce medical costs and grab the pension money. It is corporate employers who will lay off 10,000 people to get a 1% pop in the stock price.

    But the very same people who do these things will turn around and destroy the career of a person who accepts a counteroffer. Why? They have "shown disloyalty". Doesn't make sense, I know, but that is the way it is. Take the original offer and don't look back.

    sPh

    1. Re:Asymmetry of perceptions by elmegil · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you take the counter, and they diss you, what stops you from getting another offer and really leaving this time? You've already proven your worth in the marketplace.

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    2. Re:Asymmetry of perceptions by Barton+ODucks · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a manager during a few of these times when an employee finds a 'better' job [and often the job IS better] I have decided to never offer a counteroffer again. It's demeaning to everyone involved---at best it confuses the employee about what she wanted, and at worst it tells her that you were ripping her off by not already paying her what you're counter offering.

      I've worked with people who left a company only to return after a few weeks or even years for roughly the same pay and position; this could ONLY happen in an environment where the individuals involved trusted each other.

      Counter offers are kludges, and should be avoided by everyone. I'm certain that somewhere down the road I will be expected to offer a disgruntled employee more money to stay; rest assured, through nods and winks and nervous tics that I will clearly imply that my heart and mind aren't into the deal. If there is something which was made a person unhappy with their current job, no amount of money can clear those up. Take the original offer, godspeed, and hey, while you're going, here's my resume.

    3. Re:Asymmetry of perceptions by MarkCC · · Score: 5, Informative

      I've got a very different point of view.

      About two years ago, I interviewed for another job, got an offer, and told my current employer that I was leaving. I actually didn't really want a counter-offer.

      But they made one anyway. And I ended up taking it. And it was probably the smartest decision I ever made.

      The catch is, money wasn't really an issue. There were other things I was unhappy about at work. I wasn't planning on leaving because of money - in fact, the new job was a moderate pay-*cut*, with very small chances of actually paying off financially in the long run.

      But I'm just not a money-obsessed person. I'm payed very well, and to me, once you reach the point where you can afford a car and a house and a reasonable amount of entertainment, more money just doesn't matter.

      So the counter-offer didn't really involve any money. The only financial component was that the new job offer came the week before we were supposed to be told about our regular raises, and mine was impressive. But the only reason that mattered was because of what it told me about what my management thought of my work, which hadn't been communicated very clearly before that.

      So the counter offer was an offer to change some of the things about my job that I was unhappy about. And I ended up taking them up on it.

      I couldn't be happier with my job now. And my management seems very happy with me, as well. It's been over two years, so I'm pretty sure that it wasn't just a ruse to keep me long enough to let them fire me.

      So... The moral of the story: if you're leaving a job that you're happy with, and that you're getting payed fairly for, counter-offers are probably a bad deal -- for exactly the reasons detailed in the parent post.

      On the other hand, if you're unhappy with your job, sometimes the outside offer will get people to take your unhappiness seriously. Sometimes
      it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

      But finally: never use a job offer as leverage if you don't really intend to take it. I gave notice at my current job, and I was 100 percent serious about leaving. If you make the threat to leave, and you're not serious, you're probably going to wind up unemployed.

      -Mark

  18. Re:Do Not Accept by Shiblon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I also did that once. My staying power lasted 2 days after that.

    It's amazing how they felt that my expressing misgivings about my position in the company invoked a nice counter offer and a simultaneous feeling that I was "arrogant", a "loose cannon", and "unmanageable".

    They really needed me to stay, and I was not even using that as leverage. I was simply stating some misgivings I had about how things were going, and they offered more money to keep me on. Then they fired me.

    At two different companies, I was in charge of a team of programmers and pretty close to the offer decision process. At both of them, the feeling was that a counter offer was a temporary resort, and that cheaper labor was surely available.

    I'll place my two cents on the "don't take it" bet.

  19. Two ways by pokeyburro · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There are two ways I can see this having played out in your current employer's mind.

    1. Crap. This one's leaving, but I gotta keep him here for now. I'll give him a raise, get him to finish the project, and see what happens later.

    2. This is what I get for not paying attention to pay rates enough. This guy really is worth more than he's getting to me; after all, I was paying him more before the dotcom bust. Maybe I'll offer him the raise he deserves.

    Obviously, #1 implies your employer sees you as a merc for hire. #2 means your employer actually cares. Believe me, I've been around enough to know that #2 is practically worth working for at your current pay (assuming it's enough to live on).

    You know your employer better than I do. The question is, do you think your employer cares about you and your career? If so, I'd take the counteroffer, and just to make your loyalty clear, work some longer hours for a while to show how much you appreciate it. If you think #1 is closer to the case, decline politely and enjoy your new job.

    --
    Lately democracy seems to be based on the skybox, the Happy Meal box, the X-box, and the idiot box.
  20. Why you should accept a counter-offer by geophile · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this
    day on, your loyalty will always be in question.

    If you are valuable to the company, loyalty isn't an issue. If you
    aren't, you should worry anyway.

    When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is
    loyal and who is not.

    See above.

    When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.

    See above.

    Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow
    to your personal pride; you were bought.

    You're bought no matter where you go. You think that CEOs aren't
    bought? They are, and they're a lot more successful at it than anyone
    reading slashdot.

    Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies
    have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your
    next raise early?

    Sounds good to me. And the company sees that as real money. They prefer to delay expenses when possible.

    Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a
    cheaper price.

    Again, only if you aren't all that valuable to start with.

    The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will
    repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.

    So in the meanwhile you've made more money. And maybe you get another
    counteroffer the next time you get fed up.

    Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of
    voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is
    extremely high.

    Again, so what?

    Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your
    co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal
    satisfaction of peer group acceptance.

    I accepted a counter-offer. Not clear if my co-workers know, but my
    relationship with them gas been fine. Again, if you are worth the
    money, no one in his right mind will object to you getting it.

    What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign
    before they will give you what you are worth?

    They're all like that. Get over it.

  21. What about Counter-Counter offers? by Srin+Tuar · · Score: 4, Insightful


    Ive accepted a counter offer before: My current employer at the time matched what a startup had offered me, and I accepted: no need to switch jobs or anything.


    They asked me if I was unhappy, I said no, not really, it was just that I was surprised that I was offered so much money, and I would much rather stay where I was (especially with the 25% raise).


    I say counter-offers are great.
    When I broke the news, well they bumped the number up again another 30%, making it over a 50% raise since before all the haggling began. My current employer, being a govt contractor, couldn't go that high (the govt has limits on how much you can pay employees) so I took the counter-counter offer in the end.


    It turns out the whole thing was very enlighting on how low the ceiling was for me at my old position, even though I liked the job/people/etc, you have to go where the money is.

  22. Recruitment agencies' zeroth reason ... by K. · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...you should never accept a counter-offer:

    0. We don't get commision if you stay in your old job!

    --
    -- Proud descendant of semi-nomadic cattle-herders.
  23. Why you should not accept the counter IN THIS CASE by powerlifter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The main reason is quite simple: they were seeing what they could get away with. They were not paying you what you were worth; rather, they were paying you what they thought you'd tolerate. I NEVER work for people like that. You should politely tell your manager, "Thanks for the offer, but why did you not pay me that in the first place?" It's always interesting to see them squirm.

    I started my own consulting business for that very reason. When people ask me to lower my rates, I politely say, sorry, but that's what I'm worth. If you think you can find others, you're more than welcome to. Some walk, some don't. Yet, today, I've got an international client base and billables over $350K per person. It's gotta be working some way. Mercedes-Benz don't drop their prices below a certain point. That's the price of quality.

    OTOH, as a guy who started and sold a dot com, I can also tell you that you should have indicated some concerns BEFORE you began looking. That gives the employer a chance to re-evaluate. Sadly, in the States, you could get fired right there. Businesses here suck about loyalty.

    On a side note: I always made it a rule to tell employees that they should ALWAYS come to me with issues. No one works for me forever, so if you're not happy, that's fine. Either we can make you happy, or _I_ can help you get the next job. Who knows where you'll be in 5 years? I might need your help then! It's always worked for me, and I showed the same respect to my employees and teams as well.

    Rememnber, it's all about mutual respect.

    --

    ---

  24. Re:Take the Counter -- NOTHING BUT BIAS by SplendidIsolatn · · Score: 5, Informative

    Not only that, but the company's web site that wrote the 10 reasons is a RECRUITER! Of course they don't want you to take a counteroffer--THEY WON'T GET PAID. It's just as biased as if Microsoft offered a 10 reasons not to use Linux page.

    --
    sig--we don't need no goddamn sig
  25. What's your motivation? by mattdm · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Employment is (or should be!) a more complicated situation than "how much cash am I given". If money was your sole reason for leaving and you were happy otherwise, then hey, the counteroffer should be fine. On the other hand, if there were other factors -- job duties, coworkers, schedule, general happiness, whatever -- then you need to consider whether the counteroffer addresses those. If it's just a larger bribe to tolerate a still-bad situation, you probably don't want to stay. If, on the other hand, your employer really doesn't want to lose you and demonstrates an effort to make you stay, than you should definitely consider it.

  26. Re:Take the Counter by Alomex · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The linked 10 reasons are all bullshit. If the company likes you enough to match the offer, and you are otherwise happy where you are, take it. All you've shown your company is that you have goals, too.

    Most employers like that.


    Bzzt! Wrong. I'm a manager and it is not so simple. Some corporations treat offer/counteroffers very maturely, others don't.

    It also depends on the employee. If you are a trooper, you have proven with the offer that you were underpaid and I'll raise your salary and leave it at that.

    If you are a whiner, all you have shown is that you are an underpaid whiner. Since I need you to complete the current project I'll make a counteroffer, but I'll start searching for your replacement right away.

  27. Never say never by darkonc · · Score: 4, Insightful
    there are a *lot* of ppl out there who believe you should never accept a counter-offer.

    There are all sorts of things to look at when deciding to accept/reject a counter offer. Most importantly, take advantage of the fact that you now have a choice.

    One is: Just how good is your current employer? If they spuriously gave you a 30% pay cut on the premise of the dot-com bust, are they likely to do it again? Are they willing to give you a written promise that you will keep your new job/salary for a long period of time? How stable is the company if it had to give it's employees a 30-50% pay cut? If this is actually an issue, are they willing to offer you a golden parachute? More to the point: Just how much do you trust your current company (or -- for that matter -- the company that made the first offer).

    You also have to consider peer-acceptence whether you stay or go. If this presages a general increase in wages, your peers may love you for what you are setting in motion.
    You may want to talk to your peers. They may have info on your current company that influences your go/no-go decision. You may (or may not) want to get into the details of 50%, but you can probably let them know that you now have offers from another company and your boss, and you need to make a choice. If nothing else, they'll find out when you've left.. Why not do them the honor of letting them know now.

    Also: consider that the "never accept a counter-offer" pages are possibly put up by head-hunters who only make money if they get your head.
    They don't actually care about your career. They only care about the money that they get for placing you (and then for placing your replacement -- and then replacing that replacement ... ... ...)

    --
    Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
  28. Re:Take the Counter by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 5, Funny

    I expect that many corporate proxy-watchers are now raising their eyebrows because a whole whack of employees are suddenly looking at a site explaining why they should not accept a counter-offer :-)

  29. Re:Do Not Accept - Reasons from the other side... by thona · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I was in the position of having one of my employees come up with the "I would really like to stay but this other company wants to pay me so much more" story end of october last year. Well, the guy was critical for the project at this time, and was doing a pretty good job, so I was really willing to give him a little more. He demanded a pretty high "little more", though - something we thought he was not worth. So we signed in. I had him prepare the documentation with our office manager which he simply never did (really - we were willing to delay this for a week to save off his higher pay for a month - it was end of the month - but he managed not to turn up for the new contracts for two months). So what happened is that he got fired 22nd of december, just in time to end his working contract end of the year, and with his end holidays EXACTLY matching the rest of the month's work days. Sure his other company had another guy by then. Point is - you dont demand a higher salary in a project being critical and put another company onto the table as leverage. Put the market there (average pay, prooven by an independant newspaper or so), and be reasonable. But never accept counter offers. Propably you are just not replacable fast enough. THONA

  30. I Agree. This is what happened to me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I was once in a very similar situation. Although I did not go thru a salary reduction, the place became a terrible place to work at after the first wave of layoffs. The best people got canned, and those with seniority survived that first wave. These were the folks who did little work. I ended up having to do the work of 5 poeple and it sucked, while the surviving seniors still sat around on their butts pretending to work. I found a new job with more pay, but let the current employer talk me into staying with a matching pay increase. The work still stayed the same... sweatshop-like, but now my bosses had a bad attitude towards me for having had the gall to look for another job in the first place and "forceing them to pay me more to stay". The job then sucked worse for a few more months meanwhile the new job offer vanished and I had to wait even months longer before another new job offer came along that was agreeable, when it did, I bolted outta the current job asap, no pleading from my current boss would change my mind. I explained to him, as dryly and factually as a Vulcan would have explained, why my perspective of my current job just wasn't fair to me anymore and thus the reason for me wanting to leave. He couldn't argue with my reasons, they were all true, and I parted company in a civil manner, not burning any bridges. My predictions of the further downward spiral of that company all came true exactly as I said they would. After a couple more waves of layoffs, my former boss, who was now a vice-pres of the company finally decided to stand up to the senior management in support of what was left of his staff who were being treated geniunely unfairly, he got laid off for this... if only he would've had the balls to stand up earlier, he might have made a difference. Meanwhile I'm still happily employed at my new job.

    Run, don't walk... to that new job.

  31. Re:Do Not Accept by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I ended up quiting 5 times in my last position (yes.. 5 times). Each time they countered..
    the last time, I said, forget it.. this is BS.

    I also worked for Goldman sachs. A friend of mine quit, but they counter offered. The next round of layoffs, he was gone.

    If they really cared, they wouldn't wait until you quit to counter offer..

    Don't accept.

    Golden Rule: When you are getting ready to quit, you should say "no" to any counter offers .

  32. Re:Do Not Accept by B-B · · Score: 5, Informative

    I have to agree with this parent...but for a different reason. I am an IT Headhunter. (OK, get your booing and hissing out of your system).

    First, you have to look out FOR YOURSELF.
    The company HAS NO LOYALTY. They have NO FEELINGS. They are NOT concerned for your well being.

    Second, If you do not show growth in your career, in terms of skill and salary you will simply stop advancing. Opportunities will pass you by.

    I know this sucks. I know how it feels to jump ship. I did to start headhunting. Now I make more money. I am constantly leearning (Mostly from talking to you guys!)

    Best of luck out there.

    tdutton@mac.com
    IT Headhunter

    --
    Reality does not happen until you analyze the dots. -Don DeLillo (Underworld)
  33. You mean (-1, Disloyalty) by Nindalf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    -ee: "I have a job offer for a much higher salary."
    -er thinks "We can't lose him right now."
    -er: "We're prepared to match that salary if you stay with us."
    -ee: "Okay then, I'll stay."
    -er thinks "Whew! That bought us some time, but this guy is just after money, so no doubt he'll be squeezing us for more later. I'd better start looking for his replacement now."

    Being willing to jump ship for a better offer is not an impressive show of loyalty. Remember that employers ideally want idiot-savants who are brilliant at their work, but neither know their value nor seek their own best interests. They don't want people who are primarily influenced by money, they want people who are easily influenced by "good management" (i.e. manipulation and security/benefit shell games).

  34. Re:Do Not Accept by echucker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    After skimming a lot of comments, I've noticed one thing that hasn't been mentioned-

    If you take a counter-offer, you won't have to give up benefits at your current employer that you may have accrued over many years. 5 weeks vacation, becoming vested in a company retirement plan... These things take a a lot of time to work up to, and they're worth consideration.

  35. "Unmanageable" label by eples · · Score: 4, Insightful


    It's amazing how they felt that my expressing misgivings about my position in the company invoked a nice counter offer and a simultaneous feeling that I was "arrogant", a "loose cannon", and "unmanageable".

    Those are the best qualities to have - it just means that Management has recognized you are doing something smart. They like to be the only ones doing the screwing, you screw 'em back and you're "unmanageable". You know what I say? Good! I'd rather be "unmanageable" than some clueless putz that gets it up the ass every day.

    --
    I'm a 2000 man.
  36. Re:Do Not Accept by NorthDude · · Score: 4, Funny

    It is also true of self employed people.

    I am, and I also have no loyalty and no feelings.
    Just last week, I asked myself 50$/hours to cut my lawn. I was the only one able to do the job at the moment, so I accepted. One month later, I fired myself and hired a kid to do it for 10$/hours.

    --


    I'd rather be sailing...
  37. "chasing the money" means 10%, not 50% by coyote-san · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One point that seems to be overlooked is that the people with a bad reputation for "chasing the money" are going after relatively small sums - 10%, maybe 15% at the most. While this isn't inconsequential, most of us would happily trade 10% of our salary for better benefits, a less stressful commute, etc.

    But when you're in the 50% range, *nobody* will challenge you for putting the money first. (Well, I've known a few asshole bosses who would try to guilt you, but nobody else would give them any credence.) That's too much of a jump to ignore.

    Unfortunately, the same thing applies to counteroffers. If your boss offers you a 10% counteroffer, it's easy to justify as compensation for some thin raises during the past few years. If your boss offers you a 50% counteroffer, you'll soon be resentful because you'll realize how much you were underpaid before, your peers may become resentful, etc. It's a bad situation all around.

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
  38. Agreed... by Karza · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the ideal world, where professionalism is practiced, this isn't personal, it's just business . That being the case, you make your decision based on what's best for you financially and professionally and take the offer you want. Professional people understand that, as they would do the same in your position, and deal with it accordingly.

    Unfortunately, we don't live in the ideal world, there is no such thing a professionalism in modern business and people WILL take it personal. Because of that, you HAVE to treat the situation as a personal relationship and not a business relationship. Yes this is sad but, unfortunately, a fact of life. What you have done is equivalent to going to your significant other and stated, I've been seeing someone else and I would like to end our relationship. At that point, there is no turning back. Oh, the other will beg you to stay, say that things will change and ask you to try to work it out and be one of those rare couples that use this as a way to make your relationship stronger. However, while you think it's all behind you, there will be hidden resentment, hurt feelings, feelings of insecurity and sometime down the line YOUR the one who is left as they have gone out and started looking for YOUR replacement.

    As I said, while this may be a very sad and a very cynical commentary, it's simply human nature and a fact of life. Take the new job and remind yourself of the reasons you left in the first place. I'm sure that if you looked deep enough you'd discover that money wasn't the ONLY reason you wanted to leave. Even if the new job doesn't work out, you'll be better off in the long run.

    --
    --I don't mind the school of hard knocks, it's those darned refresher courses I hate. =)
  39. Re:Definitely do not accept, I did this and was la by global_diffusion · · Score: 4, Funny

    Definitely do not accept, I did this and was laid

    Umm... Exactly why shouldn't I do this, again?

  40. But is that sad? by sterno · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I ask this question because frankly I'm not convinced about the correct answer, but is it really better to have business relationships that are not personal? It seems that this is one thing that distinguishes american business from the vast majority of the rest of the world. That may be why we are by far the richest and most powerful country in the world, but I wonder at what price?

    How many corporations do layoffs in the interests of boosting stock value? That is the ultimate in tossing away personal relationships in the interest of the business. Surely sometimes a business has to cut staff to save the business but there are countless times where a profitable company cuts employees in the interests of increasing shareholder value.

    It just seems to me that this immense detachment from personal relationships in business might really be doing us a lot of harm in the long run.

    --
    This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
  41. Re:Do Not Accept by Elm+Tree · · Score: 4, Funny

    That sounds like a clear cut case of age based discrimination, you should sue!

  42. Do or do not, there is no global answer by EvilAlien · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I've seen people do this, survive 2 layoff rounds, end up promoted.

    When I was in a similar position, I choose not to accept the counter-offer and left for my current employer (now 4 years later...)

    As with just about anything, your mileage will vary.

    --
    perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
  43. 10 questionable reasons... by markmoss · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First, a general note: Many companies are remarkably unaware of the going rates until departing key employees enlighten them. Hence counteroffers occur because you showed them the hard way that they miscalculated your market value before. If everyone is adults, that is probably all there is to it. If your boss isn't emotionally adult, don't miss an opportunity to leave...

    * You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.

    Loyalty??? How 1950's... It depends on the company culture. If they bothered with the counter-offer, either it isn't too big a problem, or else they really, really need you to stick around while they hunt for a replacement. Better understand your own company well enough to tell the difference.

    I am assuming here that you repeatedly told your boss the salary was inadequate _before_ you started looking outside. If your outside jobhunting was a complete surprise, whether because you never asked for a raise or because the boss is an idiot whose forgotten all the times you showed him salary surveys, etc., then you'd better get out, because you have pissed off a powerful idiot...

    * When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.

    You expected a promotion on top of that big pay raise?

    * When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.

    Or maybe if they needed you bad enough to make the counteroffer, you'll be the last one they lay off. But usually in a real crunch the question is not you, it's whether the work you are doing is still vital considering the product lines they are dumping.

    * Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.

    If there's any chance your boss is as childish as this, by all means get out. If you are as childish as this, I hope it wasn't my company that made that offer...

    * Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?

    Whether you can expect continuing raises beyond the counteroffer is a question you must ask. However, in most companies wage and salary guidelines matter only as long as employees believe they are a reasonable excuse for not keeping salaries competitive. They'll tell you they can't give you a raise because of the guidelines, but it's just an excuse. If they really can't break the guidelines to hire and keep the people they really need, you should have been looking for a new job a long time ago, because this company is doomed to death by bureacracy.

    * Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.

    Maybe. If you work on a project by project basis, they might be just stringing you along to the end of the current project, but otherwise, if they thought they could replace you they'd have said goodbye already.

    * The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.

    If you were looking for other work because of working conditions, don't even think about counteroffers. (Unless it's to promote you to CEO so you _can_ fix the problems.) But if it was just about pay raises, just make sure the counteroffer is big enough that you won't need another raise before the next merger/split/reorganization/corporate bankruptcy makes it irrelevant anyway.

    * Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.

    Source? I can make up statistics too.

    * Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.

    Refer back to what I said about loyalty. Your office isnt like a Little League team, I hope

    * What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?

    A typical one. That's partly because so many companies don't know what their employees are worth until they have to think about replacing them, but also it's in the fundamental nature of commercial negotiations. You are selling yourself. In any negotiated sale, a person who lets it be seen that he isn't willing to walk away is going to get screwed.

    To go back to "loyalty": in this context, it's a trick to put you in the ready-to-be-screwed frame of mind.