Slashdot Mirror
Is it Wrong to Accept an Employment Counter-Offer?
An Anonymous Coward asks: "I was happily working away at a low-paying but otherwise good job I'd had for several months, after taking a huge pay cut when the dot.bomb bubble burst. Then a recruiter contacted me with a very nice potential position - I interviewed and received an offer with a 50% increase in pay, everything else nearly the same. When I received the offer and decided I was interested, I broke the news to my current employer - to my surprise they extended a counter-offer with a matching salary, thereby eliminating my only reason for considering the other job. However, I talked to some friends and checked the web for ideas and realized that there are a *lot* of ppl out there who believe you should never accept a counter-offer. They make some good points, and there are a lot of those pages - but on the web popularity breeds increased popularity, in a self-feeding cycle, so I'm wondering if the numbers are skewed unrealistically. Is it really that rare to do well by accepting a counter-offer? Do Slashdot readers have experience with counter-offers from present employers, positive or negative?"
The linked 10 reasons are all bullshit. If the company likes you enough to match the offer, and you are otherwise happy where you are, take it. All you've shown your company is that you have goals, too.
Most employers like that.
--
You sure got a purty mouth...
If they gave a damn about you, why didn't they pay you more before? Will you need to get a new job offer every time you want a raise?
-- Will program for bandwidth
I have had only one joub that offered me a counter offer, which I took. The Company went bancrupt 2 months later and I was out of a job.
This probably wont happen to you, but you have to ask yourself why your last pay rise wasn't 50% if the you company is prepared to offer you this now.
Wouldn't it be nice if schools got all the money they wanted and the army had to hold jumble sales for guns
...jump on whatever you can get. At least with the counter-offer you know what to expect. Jumping ship for another company, you run the risk of entering a completely different corporate culture than what you are used to at your current job.
That's also a damn fine vote of confidence from your boss. I'd celebrate this weekend if I were you.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Ah, back when a monkey could become a well-paid programmer... Those were the days.
If you feel the company really wants you to stay and isn't simply keeping you around to finish the current project, then I'd say stay.
The points on that page are very good, but it all really boils down to your relationship with your employer. If you feel like part of the team and you feel comfortable with the people you work with, stay. If you think this is just a ploy to give you your raise early and give you nothing when evaluations come around, then leave.
I have been pwned because my
In the current economy with staff cutbacks and furloughs becoming widespread, I would be extremely hesitant about accepting a counter-offer. If a company is offering you, as a new hire, what you want and you believe them to be stable, go for it. The amount of badwill generated in your current situation by asking for and accepting a counter-offer is too high a premium to pay.
Don't accept it. Unless they are going to give you a bonified legal employment contract.... why...
Because otherwise you will be the first on their list when they are looking to get rid on someone to cut costs. You are not only disloyal ( not that companies are ever loyal to you ) but you are probably making more than others doing the same work.
Trust me, it's a bad game to play unless you are willing to accept that your employer will always be wondering if you are going to jumo ship again.
On whether you really like the company you work for or not. If you think they'll screw you when the time comes for cuts or another raise in the future, then you should move on. If you dig the place you work for now, then take the money. Most of the arguments on that website are BS anyway - such as "you can be bought"... Well no $hit sherlock... This is why you work, to make money. And besides, this isn't 20 or 30 years in the past where companies are actually loyal to you, I say go for the best deal!
I've never accepted one before, simply because it's a temporary solution. The company was happy paying you less, and all of sudden you get more and they can pay you ?. I guess it depends on the situation, but if you've worked your ass off, and management didn't see a need to give you a raise until you threatened to leave em, it's just a sign that they'll keep you on temporarily until they find someone to replace you. Unless you're in Job nirvana(which cannot exist), I would move to the new place. Sure there are risks when you change jobs, but you have to see your situation and take the plunge.
Never forget that these companies, will fire you even if you think the job is great and the people are great, they will fire you or.. rightsize you, if money is tight. They are in it for survival, and so are you.
I have to say this, but your loyalty should be to yourself and your family, not to anonymous shareholders or board of directors that never have lunch with you.
Take pride in your work, do it well, but do it for yourself, not the company.
It is appropriate to point out to your employer
that you potentially could be making more
somewhere else, but you should do this before
you accept another offer, IMO.
If your employer says no way, then resign and
stick to it. If you accept a new offer, then
resign, and then change your mind due to a
counter-offer, you are breaking your word.
If the employer cares about you, kindly
pointing out that you can make significantly
more elsewhere is all it takes. If your
current employer waits until they get a true
resignation to do something about it, your
employer is the one with the problem.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. A good employer will do whatever it takes, within reasonable bounds, to hold onto good employees. You should accept that as a complement and stick with your current job if you are happy with it. Its risky changing jobs...you might end up with a lousy manager or the company culture may stink.
I accepted a counter-offer from my current company three years ago when I had an opportunity to take a lucrative contracting position elsewhere. I told my boss that I had no desire to leave the company, but that I have a responsibility to my family to be the best provider for them that I can be. He accepted that explanation, tendered a counter-offer, and I chose to stay. I have survived two layoffs since.
Thank you for observing all safety precautions.
Do you think you will retain it from your boss/co-workers?
And do you have enough of it towards your boss to give your boss the chance to retain you?
Seems only fair to give the person who hired you the chance to counter in good faith. By that I mean accept the counter and evaluate it honorably, don't give lip service about it. If it is a good offer be prepared to take it.
If you chick found another guy, and then you counter offered her, and she accepted, you know that she has been looking, and will continue to look untill she finds someone that you cant compeate with!
I think that I'd go with the first offer, just for a change of pace. I really like moving around, because I get bored if I'm in one place too long. Luckily, the job that I have now, I started as technical support, and then they moved me to assistant network administrator, so I haven't gotten bored yet. or maybe I'm just weird....
Check out my sysadmin blog!
You probably could/should've demanded more before (though that's generally a no-no unless you threaten to go elsewhere) but I don't see why not to take the deal if you're happy with your job. While the other job "looks" the same, it likely isn't. Things that can make working miserable usually aren't seen until they are busy making you miserable.
You should have tried to get a raise first. That would have cleared a lot of things up. But that said, you didn't, so...
If you are an important asset to the company that can't be easily replaced, you like your job, and your company trusts you, you might be able to get away with staying. If not you should be very hesitant.
The problem is that you've already signalled to your company that you are thinking about leaving. If you're going to stay, you should assure them that money was the only problem, you made a mistake by not talking to them first, and you won't repeat that mistake in the future. Otherwise expect that they are going to start looking for your replacement immediately, and as soon as they find her that 50% increase will be meaningless.
Don't listen to anyone who tells you definitively one way or another what to do. Only you know your specific situation, and how trustworthy your boss is.
Your current employer may be simply up the creek with you gone. They might be planning to replace you at their convienience at a later time. Since they need you up until then, they might just offer you an equivalent salary.
My advice: this is a great time to visit a labor lawyer and write up a termination contract. Just put something down about your termination on a "non-performance" basis. This way, if they decide to fire you without documentation of poor performance, then you will have a termination clause (just ask for like 6 months of pay or something like that).
There would be no reason for your current employer not to sign the contract since they are supposedly matching the offer based on your performance. It guarantees them that you will perform as well in the future and it guarantees you that your job won't disappear without a hefty severance.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
I think that list is a bunch of crap. Companies don't just pay what they think you are worth, they pay what they think will keep you working for them up until the point they think you aren't worth the money you want.
In otherwords if you accepted the job for $40k and they know you are worth $100k, most companies aren't going to walk over and say "you know, you are underpaid, here's $60k a year more." No, they will say "great job, here's a $5k a year raise!
But when it comes down to you demanding more, or telling them you are leaving they will pay you what they need to in order to keep you.
Too many people look at employment as a personal relationship, but it is much better for everyone to remember that it is a bussiness relationship for both the employee and employer.
[From the article:]
* Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
Well, hey, with rock-solid information like that to go on, I'd be a fool to accept a counteroffer.
After all, if you can't accept vague, unsubstatiated, unaccountable claims on the Internet as gospel, you just can't trust anyone.
--saint
However, 99.99% of organizations will behave exactly as the 10 reasons describe. Yes, I know, it was corporate employers who destroyed the idea of corporate loyalty in the 1980s. It is corporate employers who dump their long-timers to reduce medical costs and grab the pension money. It is corporate employers who will lay off 10,000 people to get a 1% pop in the stock price.
But the very same people who do these things will turn around and destroy the career of a person who accepts a counteroffer. Why? They have "shown disloyalty". Doesn't make sense, I know, but that is the way it is. Take the original offer and don't look back.
sPh
I also did that once. My staying power lasted 2 days after that.
It's amazing how they felt that my expressing misgivings about my position in the company invoked a nice counter offer and a simultaneous feeling that I was "arrogant", a "loose cannon", and "unmanageable".
They really needed me to stay, and I was not even using that as leverage. I was simply stating some misgivings I had about how things were going, and they offered more money to keep me on. Then they fired me.
At two different companies, I was in charge of a team of programmers and pretty close to the offer decision process. At both of them, the feeling was that a counter offer was a temporary resort, and that cheaper labor was surely available.
I'll place my two cents on the "don't take it" bet.
Answering only for myself: hell yes. Everybody in this world is somebody's whore. This is a simple fact of life, even if you pretend that it's otherwise (because you're an entrepreneur, or a "self-made man," or a rich spoiled brat with a trust fund). As long as I'm working in the computer field, not extending Microsoft's monopoly, and not building weapons, I'm A-OK. Other people's standards may vary.
Finding God in a Dog
There are two ways I can see this having played out in your current employer's mind.
1. Crap. This one's leaving, but I gotta keep him here for now. I'll give him a raise, get him to finish the project, and see what happens later.
2. This is what I get for not paying attention to pay rates enough. This guy really is worth more than he's getting to me; after all, I was paying him more before the dotcom bust. Maybe I'll offer him the raise he deserves.
Obviously, #1 implies your employer sees you as a merc for hire. #2 means your employer actually cares. Believe me, I've been around enough to know that #2 is practically worth working for at your current pay (assuming it's enough to live on).
You know your employer better than I do. The question is, do you think your employer cares about you and your career? If so, I'd take the counteroffer, and just to make your loyalty clear, work some longer hours for a while to show how much you appreciate it. If you think #1 is closer to the case, decline politely and enjoy your new job.
Lately democracy seems to be based on the skybox, the Happy Meal box, the X-box, and the idiot box.
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this
day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
If you are valuable to the company, loyalty isn't an issue. If you
aren't, you should worry anyway.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is
loyal and who is not.
See above.
When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
See above.
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow
to your personal pride; you were bought.
You're bought no matter where you go. You think that CEOs aren't
bought? They are, and they're a lot more successful at it than anyone
reading slashdot.
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies
have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your
next raise early?
Sounds good to me. And the company sees that as real money. They prefer to delay expenses when possible.
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a
cheaper price.
Again, only if you aren't all that valuable to start with.
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will
repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
So in the meanwhile you've made more money. And maybe you get another
counteroffer the next time you get fed up.
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of
voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is
extremely high.
Again, so what?
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your
co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal
satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
I accepted a counter-offer. Not clear if my co-workers know, but my
relationship with them gas been fine. Again, if you are worth the
money, no one in his right mind will object to you getting it.
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign
before they will give you what you are worth?
They're all like that. Get over it.
Ive accepted a counter offer before: My current employer at the time matched what a startup had offered me, and I accepted: no need to switch jobs or anything.
They asked me if I was unhappy, I said no, not really, it was just that I was surprised that I was offered so much money, and I would much rather stay where I was (especially with the 25% raise).
I say counter-offers are great.
When I broke the news, well they bumped the number up again another 30%, making it over a 50% raise since before all the haggling began. My current employer, being a govt contractor, couldn't go that high (the govt has limits on how much you can pay employees) so I took the counter-counter offer in the end.
It turns out the whole thing was very enlighting on how low the ceiling was for me at my old position, even though I liked the job/people/etc, you have to go where the money is.
...you should never accept a counter-offer:
0. We don't get commision if you stay in your old job!
-- Proud descendant of semi-nomadic cattle-herders.
You followed protocol, and gave your employeer notice, if you think the counter offer is genuine and you would really rather stay, then by all means accept.
As for that "10 reasons" link, it seems to have been written by a headhunter, to dissuade people being relocated to stay. In other words it is completely biased against counter offers cause it would cost the headhunter money if people accepted them.
Depending on where you work, how you get more money varies. Some places you have to threaten to quit. Others will give you a raise if you tell them you think you're underpaid (and they agree). Almost no employer will voluntarily increase your pay outside of a scheduled review.
Ignore anyone who tells you that if they valued you they'd be paying you more without you having to quit. That's nonsense. You might love your car, but when you went to the dealer you tried to get the best price you could. Maybe you even threatened to go to a different dealer. Interviewing at other companies is a legitimate tactic in salary negotiations. However, if you don't let your current employer know that salary negotiations are going on, they can get upset.
--
E_NOSIG
Counter offers are a dangerous thing. I once accepted one only to quit three months later. That was because the extra cash and new job title really didn't change the things that I hated about the company I was in at the time.
They are flattering when you get them, but step back and look at your situation critically. Consider things like these:
- Is an increase in your present company with no other changes in the environment going to make you happy?
- Maybe the place you're going to has better job security over your present job?
- Are there other factors that are making you look for another position other than money?
You also have to consider the fact that you have now telegraphed your "dislike" for your present company. Your present employer isn't going to be thrilled that you're leaving and you may find that it is difficult to work there going forward.
I won't deny that it's a tough decision, but the safe route IMHO is to say no and move on.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
The main reason is quite simple: they were seeing what they could get away with. They were not paying you what you were worth; rather, they were paying you what they thought you'd tolerate. I NEVER work for people like that. You should politely tell your manager, "Thanks for the offer, but why did you not pay me that in the first place?" It's always interesting to see them squirm.
I started my own consulting business for that very reason. When people ask me to lower my rates, I politely say, sorry, but that's what I'm worth. If you think you can find others, you're more than welcome to. Some walk, some don't. Yet, today, I've got an international client base and billables over $350K per person. It's gotta be working some way. Mercedes-Benz don't drop their prices below a certain point. That's the price of quality.
OTOH, as a guy who started and sold a dot com, I can also tell you that you should have indicated some concerns BEFORE you began looking. That gives the employer a chance to re-evaluate. Sadly, in the States, you could get fired right there. Businesses here suck about loyalty.
On a side note: I always made it a rule to tell employees that they should ALWAYS come to me with issues. No one works for me forever, so if you're not happy, that's fine. Either we can make you happy, or _I_ can help you get the next job. Who knows where you'll be in 5 years? I might need your help then! It's always worked for me, and I showed the same respect to my employees and teams as well.
Rememnber, it's all about mutual respect.
---
Not only that, but the company's web site that wrote the 10 reasons is a RECRUITER! Of course they don't want you to take a counteroffer--THEY WON'T GET PAID. It's just as biased as if Microsoft offered a 10 reasons not to use Linux page.
sig--we don't need no goddamn sig
About a year ago I had an offer from a contracting agency for almost double my existing salary. After some thought, I decided to give my current employer a chance to match. I didn't really expect them too... However, after presenting my boss with the information, it took less than an hour for them to not just match, but offer me more than the contracting agency!
My point is this. If you want to increase your salary well beyond the (typical) annual 4%, you usually have to go out and find a new job. However, if you _really_ enjoy where you work, it's definitely worth the risk of asking for them to match. What do you have to lose?
Go here for teh [sic] funny.
Employment is (or should be!) a more complicated situation than "how much cash am I given". If money was your sole reason for leaving and you were happy otherwise, then hey, the counteroffer should be fine. On the other hand, if there were other factors -- job duties, coworkers, schedule, general happiness, whatever -- then you need to consider whether the counteroffer addresses those. If it's just a larger bribe to tolerate a still-bad situation, you probably don't want to stay. If, on the other hand, your employer really doesn't want to lose you and demonstrates an effort to make you stay, than you should definitely consider it.
One company I worked at, often they wouldn't OFFER you raises unless you threatened to leave. It was some sick part of the company's culture. Some of the highest payed people, and who worked there the longest (14, 15, 16 years) got where they were by entertaining outside offers every so often. It was a weird company anyway, true, but mentioning you had been offered X amount more by someone else sure didn't seem to be frowned upon.
I take issue with an item from that "list":
* Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
I have NEVER seen this to hold true. Usually, if you're in that position, your co-workers will understand where you're coming from, and no one treats you differently. If anything, they respect you for taking a stand. Especially in a low-morale corporate culture.
So you need to search for another environment. A judicious selection of the new environment is important. But the most important thing is that you won't be in an statis anymore, you will be moving. Your entrance in the new environment will probably upset all existing... well... equilibria (hey, that's nice, probably even correct!
Of course, if you "only" want an easy well payed job for all your life, please keep to the known environments.
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
There are all sorts of things to look at when deciding to accept/reject a counter offer. Most importantly, take advantage of the fact that you now have a choice.
One is: Just how good is your current employer? If they spuriously gave you a 30% pay cut on the premise of the dot-com bust, are they likely to do it again? Are they willing to give you a written promise that you will keep your new job/salary for a long period of time? How stable is the company if it had to give it's employees a 30-50% pay cut? If this is actually an issue, are they willing to offer you a golden parachute? More to the point: Just how much do you trust your current company (or -- for that matter -- the company that made the first offer).
You also have to consider peer-acceptence whether you stay or go. If this presages a general increase in wages, your peers may love you for what you are setting in motion.
You may want to talk to your peers. They may have info on your current company that influences your go/no-go decision. You may (or may not) want to get into the details of 50%, but you can probably let them know that you now have offers from another company and your boss, and you need to make a choice. If nothing else, they'll find out when you've left.. Why not do them the honor of letting them know now.
Also: consider that the "never accept a counter-offer" pages are possibly put up by head-hunters who only make money if they get your head. ... ... ...)
They don't actually care about your career. They only care about the money that they get for placing you (and then for placing your replacement -- and then replacing that replacement
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
At my last job, I was extended and accepted a counter-offer when I was out looking for a job. The key is to be honest with everyone involved, including yourself. Before you step out the door (or onto DICE.COM) consider why you are looking for a new job and what would resolve the problem you are trying to address. Is it just money? Then a counteroffer should be in your considerations. Is it appreciation, management style, duties, etc.? Then maybe not. Then once you have decided the options, be sure to tell your recruiter and/or interviewer that you plan to entertain counteroffers from your current employer. They will let you know how that sits with them - some will decide then and there NOT to extend an offer because they want you definitely; others will be encouraged because it means you will extend THEM the same courtesy when/if you decide to leave their employ. This can work out for both sides.
My first time looking for a new job, a counteroffer was possible. My reasons for leaving were general dissatisfaction and lack of appreciation. I got an offer, came to my boss and laid all the cards on the table. He agreed to match the offer AND to address my other issues. The company improved and I got paid better. Next time around, my reasons for leaving were lost trust in a different manager and a belief that they were phasing out my department. This time, the counteroffer was again extended, but it was never an issue. I refused and am happily at the new job.
The original poster just went about it the wrong way in my opinion. It's like auto-insurance. Some people aren't happy with what they've got, but instead of trying to work it out, they first start shopping elsewhere and only "break the news" when they're ready to leave.
If you come straight out and say you think you deserve a little more, the company may not be as likely to respond favorably, but they also won't treat you like an employee that will be ready to bolt at the first sign of a marginally better prospect. Loyalty may be a lost thing to the big corporations, but it does make a difference to your immediate superiors, and generally they're the ones that have the say in whether you do get that raise or promotion.
But hell, if they turn you down, by all means shop around. Personally, I'm always on the look-out, but it's got to be significantly better than what I have before I'd entertain actually leaving.
I worked for my last employer for nearly six years. In all of that time, everyone I knew of who accepted a counteroffer got fired in less than a month. This is not to say that every company is the same. But if you have tried to gently offer your objections first and that hasn't worked, I don't believe you should ever go to your employers and let them know you have another offer. It's just an invitation to get screwed.
I was in the position of having one of my employees come up with the "I would really like to stay but this other company wants to pay me so much more" story end of october last year. Well, the guy was critical for the project at this time, and was doing a pretty good job, so I was really willing to give him a little more. He demanded a pretty high "little more", though - something we thought he was not worth. So we signed in. I had him prepare the documentation with our office manager which he simply never did (really - we were willing to delay this for a week to save off his higher pay for a month - it was end of the month - but he managed not to turn up for the new contracts for two months). So what happened is that he got fired 22nd of december, just in time to end his working contract end of the year, and with his end holidays EXACTLY matching the rest of the month's work days. Sure his other company had another guy by then. Point is - you dont demand a higher salary in a project being critical and put another company onto the table as leverage. Put the market there (average pay, prooven by an independant newspaper or so), and be reasonable. But never accept counter offers. Propably you are just not replacable fast enough. THONA
Nope, there was no need to mention that.
I was once in a very similar situation. Although I did not go thru a salary reduction, the place became a terrible place to work at after the first wave of layoffs. The best people got canned, and those with seniority survived that first wave. These were the folks who did little work. I ended up having to do the work of 5 poeple and it sucked, while the surviving seniors still sat around on their butts pretending to work. I found a new job with more pay, but let the current employer talk me into staying with a matching pay increase. The work still stayed the same... sweatshop-like, but now my bosses had a bad attitude towards me for having had the gall to look for another job in the first place and "forceing them to pay me more to stay". The job then sucked worse for a few more months meanwhile the new job offer vanished and I had to wait even months longer before another new job offer came along that was agreeable, when it did, I bolted outta the current job asap, no pleading from my current boss would change my mind. I explained to him, as dryly and factually as a Vulcan would have explained, why my perspective of my current job just wasn't fair to me anymore and thus the reason for me wanting to leave. He couldn't argue with my reasons, they were all true, and I parted company in a civil manner, not burning any bridges. My predictions of the further downward spiral of that company all came true exactly as I said they would. After a couple more waves of layoffs, my former boss, who was now a vice-pres of the company finally decided to stand up to the senior management in support of what was left of his staff who were being treated geniunely unfairly, he got laid off for this... if only he would've had the balls to stand up earlier, he might have made a difference. Meanwhile I'm still happily employed at my new job.
Run, don't walk... to that new job.
The company I went to that offered me 50% salary increase got me going from a very good company to a new startup, at that time I was ready to take the risk of being "screwed" in the worse case scenario. Job stability wasn't my main concern back then so I could afford "experimenting". What an experimentation it was, I got screwed big time, promises promises and after 6 months I've lost my job with some lawyers letter (the ceo there was a total freak and liar). After fighting to get my last week of pay and my overtime... anyways all this to say, this wasn't worth the 50% increase, the other place wasn't paying as much but I had a "name" and potential title to put on my resume. Worse, after I left and some other did the same, they re-ajusted their salary brackets and while it wasn't matching what I got, it was still good enough to consider the type of work and the stability for the little difference it gave.
:).
So basically, if you are looking for stability, and want to risk it in a startup that offers good salary so you they can start up properly with the good people, it's a risk, and depending on how much you are willing to risk and where you live, there are tools that you can use to protect yourself.
The other thing when you stay at a company that makes a counter-offer, some CEOs are dumbasses, especially in startup. They will take the fact that you looked elsewhere personnally "what, you think I am not treating you well? you think blablablabla? how dare you!", and they will always have that little irrationnal something caught between how professionnal you are and their judgment, some (very few) bosses understand this and respond in a good way, but most are very idiotic about it. That's one thing I like about some bigger companies, if you did a good job and leave because you got better pay, they reajust, and offer you to come back if it doesn't succeed, that way you'll have gained extra experience and if you get back chances are you'll be a more stable ressource and etc etc and they will rely on you more.
One thing you can do to be sure when you get a counteroffer, it shows that he really wants to keep you and you can ask more, like a one year contract so that way if shit breaks loose, you'll still get 1 year of salary for sure and he won't be able to fire you under normal circumstances. One thing I often saw is the CEO acts like if nothing happened and it's normal life going, he hires somebody with a different function but can overlap yours and ends up kicking you out. This is very common and "buisness is buisness" they'll say.
I also had a good experience going into another company with a bit higher salary, but it was people I already knew for a long time and all, so I guess this wouldn't count
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
I ended up quiting 5 times in my last position (yes.. 5 times). Each time they countered..
the last time, I said, forget it.. this is BS.
I also worked for Goldman sachs. A friend of mine quit, but they counter offered. The next round of layoffs, he was gone.
If they really cared, they wouldn't wait until you quit to counter offer..
Don't accept.
Golden Rule: When you are getting ready to quit, you should say "no" to any counter offers .
I have to agree with this parent...but for a different reason. I am an IT Headhunter. (OK, get your booing and hissing out of your system).
First, you have to look out FOR YOURSELF.
The company HAS NO LOYALTY. They have NO FEELINGS. They are NOT concerned for your well being.
Second, If you do not show growth in your career, in terms of skill and salary you will simply stop advancing. Opportunities will pass you by.
I know this sucks. I know how it feels to jump ship. I did to start headhunting. Now I make more money. I am constantly leearning (Mostly from talking to you guys!)
Best of luck out there.
tdutton@mac.com
IT Headhunter
Reality does not happen until you analyze the dots. -Don DeLillo (Underworld)
-ee: "I have a job offer for a much higher salary."
-er thinks "We can't lose him right now."
-er: "We're prepared to match that salary if you stay with us."
-ee: "Okay then, I'll stay."
-er thinks "Whew! That bought us some time, but this guy is just after money, so no doubt he'll be squeezing us for more later. I'd better start looking for his replacement now."
Being willing to jump ship for a better offer is not an impressive show of loyalty. Remember that employers ideally want idiot-savants who are brilliant at their work, but neither know their value nor seek their own best interests. They don't want people who are primarily influenced by money, they want people who are easily influenced by "good management" (i.e. manipulation and security/benefit shell games).
After skimming a lot of comments, I've noticed one thing that hasn't been mentioned-
If you take a counter-offer, you won't have to give up benefits at your current employer that you may have accrued over many years. 5 weeks vacation, becoming vested in a company retirement plan... These things take a a lot of time to work up to, and they're worth consideration.
It's amazing how they felt that my expressing misgivings about my position in the company invoked a nice counter offer and a simultaneous feeling that I was "arrogant", a "loose cannon", and "unmanageable".
Those are the best qualities to have - it just means that Management has recognized you are doing something smart. They like to be the only ones doing the screwing, you screw 'em back and you're "unmanageable". You know what I say? Good! I'd rather be "unmanageable" than some clueless putz that gets it up the ass every day.
I'm a 2000 man.
It is also true of self employed people.
I am, and I also have no loyalty and no feelings.
Just last week, I asked myself 50$/hours to cut my lawn. I was the only one able to do the job at the moment, so I accepted. One month later, I fired myself and hired a kid to do it for 10$/hours.
I'd rather be sailing...
One point that seems to be overlooked is that the people with a bad reputation for "chasing the money" are going after relatively small sums - 10%, maybe 15% at the most. While this isn't inconsequential, most of us would happily trade 10% of our salary for better benefits, a less stressful commute, etc.
But when you're in the 50% range, *nobody* will challenge you for putting the money first. (Well, I've known a few asshole bosses who would try to guilt you, but nobody else would give them any credence.) That's too much of a jump to ignore.
Unfortunately, the same thing applies to counteroffers. If your boss offers you a 10% counteroffer, it's easy to justify as compensation for some thin raises during the past few years. If your boss offers you a 50% counteroffer, you'll soon be resentful because you'll realize how much you were underpaid before, your peers may become resentful, etc. It's a bad situation all around.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Instead of telling your boss that you have a job offer from another company that is better for you than you current job, instead ask for a raise (if this is what you want most) or if you think your boss will change the work environment to suit your needs then ask for that.
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
No you have not; you've made your employer aware that he's not paying you enough and this has nothing to do with loyalty. If your loyalty is in question, this is not a consequence of the offer but of the stupidity of you employer.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
See #1. Also: if your employer made you a counteroffer, you're at least worth something so maybe your chances at promotion time are even higher:)
When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Nothing wrong with that; when times get tough, there's less work available for you so your value on the jobmarket gets lower so it's perfectly normal to get a cutback. Your chance to get a cutback at another employer is about just as high.
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
Accepting a counteroffer means you actually like your job but get payed more. How can that possibly be a blow to your personal pride?!
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Maybe it was. Is that so bad? Getting a raise earlier doesn't implicate that you won't get another raise soon.
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
And they will get what they pay for so when they can do with someone cheaper, you're probably not the right man for the job anyway. And if you're not the right person, just don't accept the counteroffer
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
So? There are other ways to make it clear to your employer that you're worth more than he's paying for.
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
So...where are those statistics?
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
If your co-workers are such assholes, maybe you shouldn't accept the counteroffer and go work somewhere else, but this has nothing to do with the counteroffer.
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
A company that doesn't know that well what you're worth. That's not a good thing, but it's not reason not to accept a counteroffer.
Conclusion: the 3 reasons for not accepting a counteroffer are: 1. Your boss is an asshole, 2. Your collegues are assholes or 3. You're not the right man for the job (or just don't like the job). Oh and maybe you'd also noticed these 10 reasons where on a site called `jobtechsearch'. Their sole goal is to get you a new job so counteroffers are a bad thing for them:)
0x or or snor perron?!
In the ideal world, where professionalism is practiced, this isn't personal, it's just business . That being the case, you make your decision based on what's best for you financially and professionally and take the offer you want. Professional people understand that, as they would do the same in your position, and deal with it accordingly.
Unfortunately, we don't live in the ideal world, there is no such thing a professionalism in modern business and people WILL take it personal. Because of that, you HAVE to treat the situation as a personal relationship and not a business relationship. Yes this is sad but, unfortunately, a fact of life. What you have done is equivalent to going to your significant other and stated, I've been seeing someone else and I would like to end our relationship. At that point, there is no turning back. Oh, the other will beg you to stay, say that things will change and ask you to try to work it out and be one of those rare couples that use this as a way to make your relationship stronger. However, while you think it's all behind you, there will be hidden resentment, hurt feelings, feelings of insecurity and sometime down the line YOUR the one who is left as they have gone out and started looking for YOUR replacement.
As I said, while this may be a very sad and a very cynical commentary, it's simply human nature and a fact of life. Take the new job and remind yourself of the reasons you left in the first place. I'm sure that if you looked deep enough you'd discover that money wasn't the ONLY reason you wanted to leave. Even if the new job doesn't work out, you'll be better off in the long run.
--I don't mind the school of hard knocks, it's those darned refresher courses I hate. =)
1. You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Possibly true. But in a company run by grown-ups, you're supposed to let management know that you're unhappy. You are not supposed to whine about it, but you can state, in a reasonable way, that you are dissatisfied. That's what you do when you ask for a raise. And only foolish, childish managers will be shocked (Shocked!) to learn that some employees don't love the company. Of course, not everybody's a grown up.
2. When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
See above. And, they will also remember who was good enough to receive an offer of a fifty percent raise, and who was considered valuable enough to be retained with a similar raise.
3. When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Perhaps. There are no guarantees in life.
4. Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
This is ridiculous. We are bought with our salaries. It is how the system works, and it's a reasonable and honorable exchange: work for pay. If you do something unethical because you've been offered lots of money, that's different. Volunteering is great if you are independently wealthy. Most are not. I've allowed myself to be bought away from the life of leisure I prefer: The company told me that if I write programs they'll give me money.
5. Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Could be. One of the wage and salary guidelines most companies follow is to get and retain the people they need for the least amount of money. That's why you negotiate salaries and push a bit.
6. Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Doubtful. If I were going to do that I would probably just let the person take the new job and then start looking. If the position was so vital that I couldn't do that, I would consider making a counter-offer to retain somebody who already knew the company and the job.
7. The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
True in some cases. But in the post we're discussing, the only difference between the jobs was money.
8. Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
As others have noted, I want to know the details on these statistics.
9. Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Word does not always get out. And I personally still respect one of our sysadmins who stayed with our company on the basis of a counter offer. He's been here for five years since then, and everything is fine. I'm not an idiot and neither are my co-workers. The guy is good, he has a family to feed and parents to take care of, another company offered him money, and our company offered more to keep him. They made a good move. Management and staff knew why he was going to leave, because they also use money to purchase goods and services for themselves and their families.
10. What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
A normal one. Not that the person who posted this couldn't have asked for more money sooner, obviously, but he didn't. It does not sound as though he was asking and asking and then finally, after many months of trying to get what he was worth, had to threaten to leave. He didn't know what he was worth to the company and only found out when he tried to leave.
Management may feel strong-armed in this situation, and they may resent him. Maybe it is better to leave. Also, variety and change are good. But that top ten list was weak.
Definitely do not accept, I did this and was laid
Umm... Exactly why shouldn't I do this, again?
I ask this question because frankly I'm not convinced about the correct answer, but is it really better to have business relationships that are not personal? It seems that this is one thing that distinguishes american business from the vast majority of the rest of the world. That may be why we are by far the richest and most powerful country in the world, but I wonder at what price?
How many corporations do layoffs in the interests of boosting stock value? That is the ultimate in tossing away personal relationships in the interest of the business. Surely sometimes a business has to cut staff to save the business but there are countless times where a profitable company cuts employees in the interests of increasing shareholder value.
It just seems to me that this immense detachment from personal relationships in business might really be doing us a lot of harm in the long run.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
There is serious debate going on about the approriateness of milk as calcium source. There are three major questions, the first is that milk doesn't have the same balance of minerals as our bodies need, and therefore someone using milk to ensure that they have enough calcium in their diet may end up being deficent in other minerals, it's much better to eat a well balanced diet which gives all the minerals from a variety of sources. The second question is how available is the calcium in milk anyway. With the majority of adults being lactose intollerant, many people find it difficult or impossible to drink enough milk to make a significant difference to their diet. The third is of course the high percentage of fat, sodium and potassium, all of which tend to be already in our diets at too high a level.
I used to work at a major defense contractor.
:-P). I looked at the situation... I had a hell of a lot of seniority (I'd worked there for 17 years), but on the other hand, I was pushing 40, and I had a "now or never" feeling. I gave them my regrets, explained that it had nothing to do with the company, and that while the counter was generous, I really felt that it was just time to leave. No hard feelings, I was told that if I ever wanted to come back, and there was an opening, no problem. Privately, my direct boss told me that even if there wasn't an opening, he'd make one if I needed one. That security blanket was a big help, since I was going to a small start-up.
After two or three layoff rounds, I put my resume out on the web... didn't think too much about it, because I was happy where I was. About 6 months later, I get a call from a recruiter. I get an offer that's about a 20%.
My then-current employer offered to match (sans options, but I wasn't counting on those
I had a friend who accepted there a counter 6 years ago, and he's still there.
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
it's much better to eat a well balanced diet
That's why I was sure to mention cookies as well.
I take drugs seriously.
That sounds like a clear cut case of age based discrimination, you should sue!
When I was in a similar position, I choose not to accept the counter-offer and left for my current employer (now 4 years later...)
As with just about anything, your mileage will vary.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
Two experiences from two different employers.
One, less than a year out of college I got an unsolicited offer from within 50 miles of home. Considering I was now 1500 miles from home, and considering they were offering a 20% raise, I considered it a nobrainer. But my current employer offered me a promotion and 30% raise for me to stay. In the end, I figured longevity at my first job would look better on my resume, and with some apprehension, stayed with my then-current employer. Right decision. 2 more promotions and five years later, I left on my own terms because I didn't like the new projects being handed to the group, and my not liking that wasn't going to change anything.
Then several years ago, I vented at my boss after being asked to give up an already-planned weekend vacation that considering the sacrifices being asked of me and considering the positions and salaries of those around me, I was underpaid. It was not an ultimatum, just a firm statement of opinion. I concluded (in person) that "while this isn't enough for me to go distribute my resume, on the day that I do do that, if you ask me when I first became disenchanted with my job, I will probably say today."
And they apologized, agreed, and offered me a small raise (about 3%) with the promise that this was above and beyond my salary review (due in a couple of months.) And they were good to their word.
There are three things that make me want to work somewhere: 1) The people I work with, 2) The things I am doing, and 3) What I get paid. On any given day, these can be in different order of importance. Whenever I feel any two of them are out of whack, I start looking for a new job. If only one is out of whack, I talk to my manager about it to see if something can be improved. So far, in almost all cases, it could. In those cases when it couldn't, I found a new job and entertained no counter offers, because the counters, I felt, didn't address ALL of my concerns.
Loyalty now is to people, not companies. If I respect my manager I'll try to work with him or her. If I respect my co-workers, I may actually stay because of them. But loyalty to a company is an (unfortunately) outdated concept, because companies are no longer loyal to employees.
And hey, guess what -- I'm not afraid of my managers reading this because I've already had this conversation with them.
First, a general note: Many companies are remarkably unaware of the going rates until departing key employees enlighten them. Hence counteroffers occur because you showed them the hard way that they miscalculated your market value before. If everyone is adults, that is probably all there is to it. If your boss isn't emotionally adult, don't miss an opportunity to leave...
* You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Loyalty??? How 1950's... It depends on the company culture. If they bothered with the counter-offer, either it isn't too big a problem, or else they really, really need you to stick around while they hunt for a replacement. Better understand your own company well enough to tell the difference.
I am assuming here that you repeatedly told your boss the salary was inadequate _before_ you started looking outside. If your outside jobhunting was a complete surprise, whether because you never asked for a raise or because the boss is an idiot whose forgotten all the times you showed him salary surveys, etc., then you'd better get out, because you have pissed off a powerful idiot...
* When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
You expected a promotion on top of that big pay raise?
* When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Or maybe if they needed you bad enough to make the counteroffer, you'll be the last one they lay off. But usually in a real crunch the question is not you, it's whether the work you are doing is still vital considering the product lines they are dumping.
* Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
If there's any chance your boss is as childish as this, by all means get out. If you are as childish as this, I hope it wasn't my company that made that offer...
* Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Whether you can expect continuing raises beyond the counteroffer is a question you must ask. However, in most companies wage and salary guidelines matter only as long as employees believe they are a reasonable excuse for not keeping salaries competitive. They'll tell you they can't give you a raise because of the guidelines, but it's just an excuse. If they really can't break the guidelines to hire and keep the people they really need, you should have been looking for a new job a long time ago, because this company is doomed to death by bureacracy.
* Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Maybe. If you work on a project by project basis, they might be just stringing you along to the end of the current project, but otherwise, if they thought they could replace you they'd have said goodbye already.
* The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
If you were looking for other work because of working conditions, don't even think about counteroffers. (Unless it's to promote you to CEO so you _can_ fix the problems.) But if it was just about pay raises, just make sure the counteroffer is big enough that you won't need another raise before the next merger/split/reorganization/corporate bankruptcy makes it irrelevant anyway.
* Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
Source? I can make up statistics too.
* Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Refer back to what I said about loyalty. Your office isnt like a Little League team, I hope
* What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
A typical one. That's partly because so many companies don't know what their employees are worth until they have to think about replacing them, but also it's in the fundamental nature of commercial negotiations. You are selling yourself. In any negotiated sale, a person who lets it be seen that he isn't willing to walk away is going to get screwed.
To go back to "loyalty": in this context, it's a trick to put you in the ready-to-be-screwed frame of mind.
I don't think it's unreasonable to think that 25% (or more) of a large group doesn't even pull their own weight.
That's certainly true at a large company the first time you do this. But there are a few dangers to the devil-take-the-hindmost approach.
The first is a pretty obvious one: scoring actual peformance is really hard, so most places base this stuff on the appearance of performance or on opinions of your performance, often from people who aren't particularly qualified to judge (e.g., MBAs judging technical peformance). So the people you end up keeping may be the most politically skilled or the most effective bullshitters. Increasing their number may be even worse than the deadweight you had before.
A more subtle one is that if you apply this rule over and over, you will be getting rid of higher and higher quality people. (Simulate it with some random numbers to see what I mean.) That can be very wasteful, especially given the high hidden costs of turnover.
The one that worries me most, though, is that you substantially reduce incentives for internal cooperation. If I know that a third of my team is going to be fired, I have a strong disincentive to help my coworkers shine. For example, the top debugger on a team may never look good on traditional code production metrics, but he may be able to spend an hour to save his coworkers days of hunting. For those following team-oriented approaches to development (including the agile processes like XP), this will destroy the source of most of the potential productivity gains.
Don't kid yourself; business relationships in the United States are extremely personal, at least until it is to the business' advantage to pretend that the relationship is NOT personal.
Most workers in the U.S. spend more time tending their business relationships than they do their personal relationships with their friends, their spouses, their children. Not content to simply perform the job for which their time has been leased, they will attempt to mold their (allegedly) off-work hours to suit their employers' whims: go to employer's 'events', favor hanging about with the people with whom they've already spent most of the day working whether or not those people would be the sort they'd normally care to associate, even old friendships gradually will wither and die if a competitor is involved. The worker will even try to mold his psyche to something more to the employer's liking by litening to motivational tapes and buying ghost-written biographies of heads of companies who either managed to inherit wealth or be in the right place to lead a parade they didn't necessarily start.
American business demands much more than just time-and-quality-work for money-and-benefits. Loyalty to the company is sometimes demanded to the point of near-worship. You bet it's personal. At least until the equation reverses and the employee expects a consideration that's not covered, pro or con, in the Policy manual. Then you will hear that "the age of the paternalistic American company is over", "only the interests of the shareholders can be considered", and a lot of other things that translate to: don't make it personal. And yet we get puzzled when some postal worker starts spraying away with a gun or a fast-food worker decides to cut open something other than a carton of fries after the morning Corporate Hymn.
Before the libertarians start piling on about how anti-American this screed sounds, it isn't. What I mean to point out is a wretched, hypocritical duality that is driving at least some people bonkers in the U.S.: you can't give someone only what you like of the old-style Japanese culture with its worker loyalty without the other part, which was "we hardly fire anybody and we'll take care of you". Business can't just take what it wants from Column A and ignore Column B and expect to maintain a sane workforce. There's a balance that's being ignored. Each individual business needs to decide how personal things are allowed to be, and it needs to be that personal both ways, and not just with expectations flowing in one direction.
I've had greatly rewarding business relationships of both kinds: ones with clearly defined, rigid limits and parameters for major multinationals and ones with more closely held local companies where the employess could go out and carouse with the owners. I've either been smart or lucky because I've negotiated certain hard limits and exclusions on my time in advance; my skill set is sufficiently in demand that I can do that. Some companies were frankly aghast that I held them to those pre-negotiated limits even though they'd advertised themselves as having had "family values" (isn't it funny how so many that yell "family" the loudest are those who will take you away from it the most?) I countered that perhaps I should start looking elsewhere if they were unhappy with what I'd negotiated; nobody's ever taken me up on that.
As far as accepting counter-offers goes: I agree with those who have said that the only loyalty in business is that flowing from employee to employer. Regarding the other direction, with few exceptions:
Trust is just a name on a bank.