Slashdot Mirror
Is it Wrong to Accept an Employment Counter-Offer?
An Anonymous Coward asks: "I was happily working away at a low-paying but otherwise good job I'd had for several months, after taking a huge pay cut when the dot.bomb bubble burst. Then a recruiter contacted me with a very nice potential position - I interviewed and received an offer with a 50% increase in pay, everything else nearly the same. When I received the offer and decided I was interested, I broke the news to my current employer - to my surprise they extended a counter-offer with a matching salary, thereby eliminating my only reason for considering the other job. However, I talked to some friends and checked the web for ideas and realized that there are a *lot* of ppl out there who believe you should never accept a counter-offer. They make some good points, and there are a lot of those pages - but on the web popularity breeds increased popularity, in a self-feeding cycle, so I'm wondering if the numbers are skewed unrealistically. Is it really that rare to do well by accepting a counter-offer? Do Slashdot readers have experience with counter-offers from present employers, positive or negative?"
I did that once... I stayed for about 3 more weeks and then went right out the door...
This is my sig. Its pathetic.
If you like where you're at stay. If not leave. Ignore all the extranious bs and make an unclouded decision.
The linked 10 reasons are all bullshit. If the company likes you enough to match the offer, and you are otherwise happy where you are, take it. All you've shown your company is that you have goals, too.
Most employers like that.
--
You sure got a purty mouth...
If they gave a damn about you, why didn't they pay you more before? Will you need to get a new job offer every time you want a raise?
-- Will program for bandwidth
Perfectly acceptable and normal employment practice. If you have solid professional relationship with your current management then you shouldn't worry about:
1) being considered a greedy troublemaker
2) why you weren't being properly compensated already.
Since salaries and duties seem to match, you have the luxury of considering other factors, like the impact on your commute, if any.
Good luck,
B2
I have had only one joub that offered me a counter offer, which I took. The Company went bancrupt 2 months later and I was out of a job.
This probably wont happen to you, but you have to ask yourself why your last pay rise wasn't 50% if the you company is prepared to offer you this now.
Wouldn't it be nice if schools got all the money they wanted and the army had to hold jumble sales for guns
The only problem I see is that your current employer would then always wonder if you were looking for a new job. Not that it is a matter of trust, but I do think it would change their perception, and they might not see you as part of the team anymore. That may not be right, but we're talking human perceptions not right or wrong. Ultimately, what is your gut feeling, do you think your current employer would feel jaded, would the environment degrade making it an uneasy and unpleasant place to work. If not, then staying would be fine. That's the question you have to answer, as I see it
-Master Switch, one more element in the machine
...jump on whatever you can get. At least with the counter-offer you know what to expect. Jumping ship for another company, you run the risk of entering a completely different corporate culture than what you are used to at your current job.
That's also a damn fine vote of confidence from your boss. I'd celebrate this weekend if I were you.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Ah, back when a monkey could become a well-paid programmer... Those were the days.
If you feel the company really wants you to stay and isn't simply keeping you around to finish the current project, then I'd say stay.
The points on that page are very good, but it all really boils down to your relationship with your employer. If you feel like part of the team and you feel comfortable with the people you work with, stay. If you think this is just a ploy to give you your raise early and give you nothing when evaluations come around, then leave.
I have been pwned because my
In the current economy with staff cutbacks and furloughs becoming widespread, I would be extremely hesitant about accepting a counter-offer. If a company is offering you, as a new hire, what you want and you believe them to be stable, go for it. The amount of badwill generated in your current situation by asking for and accepting a counter-offer is too high a premium to pay.
Don't accept it. Unless they are going to give you a bonified legal employment contract.... why...
Because otherwise you will be the first on their list when they are looking to get rid on someone to cut costs. You are not only disloyal ( not that companies are ever loyal to you ) but you are probably making more than others doing the same work.
Trust me, it's a bad game to play unless you are willing to accept that your employer will always be wondering if you are going to jumo ship again.
On whether you really like the company you work for or not. If you think they'll screw you when the time comes for cuts or another raise in the future, then you should move on. If you dig the place you work for now, then take the money. Most of the arguments on that website are BS anyway - such as "you can be bought"... Well no $hit sherlock... This is why you work, to make money. And besides, this isn't 20 or 30 years in the past where companies are actually loyal to you, I say go for the best deal!
I've never accepted one before, simply because it's a temporary solution. The company was happy paying you less, and all of sudden you get more and they can pay you ?. I guess it depends on the situation, but if you've worked your ass off, and management didn't see a need to give you a raise until you threatened to leave em, it's just a sign that they'll keep you on temporarily until they find someone to replace you. Unless you're in Job nirvana(which cannot exist), I would move to the new place. Sure there are risks when you change jobs, but you have to see your situation and take the plunge.
Never forget that these companies, will fire you even if you think the job is great and the people are great, they will fire you or.. rightsize you, if money is tight. They are in it for survival, and so are you.
I have to say this, but your loyalty should be to yourself and your family, not to anonymous shareholders or board of directors that never have lunch with you.
Take pride in your work, do it well, but do it for yourself, not the company.
It is appropriate to point out to your employer
that you potentially could be making more
somewhere else, but you should do this before
you accept another offer, IMO.
If your employer says no way, then resign and
stick to it. If you accept a new offer, then
resign, and then change your mind due to a
counter-offer, you are breaking your word.
If the employer cares about you, kindly
pointing out that you can make significantly
more elsewhere is all it takes. If your
current employer waits until they get a true
resignation to do something about it, your
employer is the one with the problem.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. A good employer will do whatever it takes, within reasonable bounds, to hold onto good employees. You should accept that as a complement and stick with your current job if you are happy with it. Its risky changing jobs...you might end up with a lousy manager or the company culture may stink.
If nothing else, accepting the counter offer will cause the comapny that initially tried to recruit you to concievably make a similar offer to someone else [perhaps several others, if they each accept a corresponding counter offer from their own current employers, until finally one of them is not actually worth that much to their old company, and they will transfer their employment to someone who is willing to pay what it is worth.
---
the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword is mightier than the court, the court is mightier than the pen.
I accepted a counter-offer from my current company three years ago when I had an opportunity to take a lucrative contracting position elsewhere. I told my boss that I had no desire to leave the company, but that I have a responsibility to my family to be the best provider for them that I can be. He accepted that explanation, tendered a counter-offer, and I chose to stay. I have survived two layoffs since.
Thank you for observing all safety precautions.
I think it depends on what kind of relationship you have with your current boss. If you can talk openly about wanting to leave, and there's no bullshit politics about loyalty, etc. then you should stay.
If there are going to be problems generated by the fact that you thought about leaving, then don't stay.
I know I could tell my boss "hey, this sucks, I want out." and he would understand, and we could talk about it, but I've had jobs that the fact that I even THOUGHT about leaving would cause problems.
The bigger the company, the easier it is to stay I think, too. Since there's generally more of a personal stake for managers, and people feel closer to the company.
That's my take on it. It's all about how it will affect your boss's relationship with you.
Do you think you will retain it from your boss/co-workers?
And do you have enough of it towards your boss to give your boss the chance to retain you?
Seems only fair to give the person who hired you the chance to counter in good faith. By that I mean accept the counter and evaluate it honorably, don't give lip service about it. If it is a good offer be prepared to take it.
If you chick found another guy, and then you counter offered her, and she accepted, you know that she has been looking, and will continue to look untill she finds someone that you cant compeate with!
I think that I'd go with the first offer, just for a change of pace. I really like moving around, because I get bored if I'm in one place too long. Luckily, the job that I have now, I started as technical support, and then they moved me to assistant network administrator, so I haven't gotten bored yet. or maybe I'm just weird....
Check out my sysadmin blog!
You probably could/should've demanded more before (though that's generally a no-no unless you threaten to go elsewhere) but I don't see why not to take the deal if you're happy with your job. While the other job "looks" the same, it likely isn't. Things that can make working miserable usually aren't seen until they are busy making you miserable.
You should have tried to get a raise first. That would have cleared a lot of things up. But that said, you didn't, so...
If you are an important asset to the company that can't be easily replaced, you like your job, and your company trusts you, you might be able to get away with staying. If not you should be very hesitant.
The problem is that you've already signalled to your company that you are thinking about leaving. If you're going to stay, you should assure them that money was the only problem, you made a mistake by not talking to them first, and you won't repeat that mistake in the future. Otherwise expect that they are going to start looking for your replacement immediately, and as soon as they find her that 50% increase will be meaningless.
Don't listen to anyone who tells you definitively one way or another what to do. Only you know your specific situation, and how trustworthy your boss is.
actually.. I think I will sleep quite well on my bed MADE OUT OF MONEY.
BilldaCat
In some of the smaller tech sub-specialties, or a somewhat confined geographic market "everyone knows everyone". That means, unless you become a burger-flipper, your job decisions will dog you for years, if not decades. Even despite the size of a specialty, you'd be surprised when re-encounter people. The guy you dis'ed last month might be a future hiring manager, customer, vendor, etc. I've seen this countless times. So it always advised to act with the maximum of poise, despite the urge to be negative.
I think it is reasonable to except a counter offer. The fact that your current company is willing to counter does tell you something about how important they think you are for there business.
Basically, you are in a really good possition now, you can choose any path you wish. So evaluate both companies. Look at the people you will be working with, the stability of the company, all those things I am sure you are considering anyway, and pick which one seams best for you. In fact, you should have a smile on your face, because in an economy where many can't find a job, you have two!
Your current employer may be simply up the creek with you gone. They might be planning to replace you at their convienience at a later time. Since they need you up until then, they might just offer you an equivalent salary.
My advice: this is a great time to visit a labor lawyer and write up a termination contract. Just put something down about your termination on a "non-performance" basis. This way, if they decide to fire you without documentation of poor performance, then you will have a termination clause (just ask for like 6 months of pay or something like that).
There would be no reason for your current employer not to sign the contract since they are supposedly matching the offer based on your performance. It guarantees them that you will perform as well in the future and it guarantees you that your job won't disappear without a hefty severance.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
I think that list is a bunch of crap. Companies don't just pay what they think you are worth, they pay what they think will keep you working for them up until the point they think you aren't worth the money you want.
In otherwords if you accepted the job for $40k and they know you are worth $100k, most companies aren't going to walk over and say "you know, you are underpaid, here's $60k a year more." No, they will say "great job, here's a $5k a year raise!
But when it comes down to you demanding more, or telling them you are leaving they will pay you what they need to in order to keep you.
Too many people look at employment as a personal relationship, but it is much better for everyone to remember that it is a bussiness relationship for both the employee and employer.
[From the article:]
* Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
Well, hey, with rock-solid information like that to go on, I'd be a fool to accept a counteroffer.
After all, if you can't accept vague, unsubstatiated, unaccountable claims on the Internet as gospel, you just can't trust anyone.
--saint
If, however, you work for a politically charged, highly structured company, then you're begging to become a corporate pariah. Someone in the chain of command will find out you're "holding them up for more money" and will do one of three things: 1) make your salary requirements public domain, 2) demand that you take on twice the responsibilities you previously had, or 3) begin a festering passive-aggressive campaign to make your life thoroughly miserable.
Personally, you're selling your time and abilities for a price, and if you aren't looking to maximize your take-home $, then you're probably not getting enough out of your job and capitalism on the whole.
Once you're throgh that looking-glass, your employer will never really trust you again. They may simply be extending you that offer to keep you on long enough to find a replacement for your position at a lower price.
In any case, they'll always be looking over their shoulder at you, expecting you to find new and exciting ways to ratchet up your salary. Not a good place to be.
Good Luck!
Just dont' work for this guy:
tcd004
The danger in accepting a counter-offer that's purely compensation-based is that the current employer may feel that they've been "extorted" into it, thus creating a feeling of resentment on their part. Also your "company loyalty" has now been called into question.
I've only once even *entertained* the idea of considering a counter-offer. And in that instance I did accept it. But the reason for the impending job move was *not* financial at all. The current job had not been offering me the kind of job-growth opportunities I wanted. Financially: it was about even-up. My current employer understood completely. Understood so well, in fact, that they decided that giving me that opportunity would aid their own business growth. So the next day (completely unexpectedly, btw) they made me a counter-offer I couldn't refuse.
If it had been purely a financial thing, I would've never considered it. In fact: since I went from hourly to salaried, I actually took a pay *cut*.
Most of my point is in the subject line. If an employer is willing to pay me more to stay with the company, it tells me that I'm not currently being paid what I'm worth to the company. It does not mean that I have unreasonable expectations; if that were the case, the company simply wouldn't make a counter-offer, and let me go work for the other company.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I never liked the idea of counteroffers much, because the whole concept is that you have to pretty much threaton to quit before your employer will give you a raise. That doesn't set up a good social dynamic at your job, either. Your employer will remember that you're not as "loyal" as the other employees, and if there's ever a round of layoffs, you'll have two strikes against you: you'll cost the company more to keep around, and they'll percieve you as being "disloyal".
There is another good article about counteroffers here. You may also wish to read this article about how to resign from a job.
Good luck!
Are you at your currently employer because you like the job?
The danger of the counter-offer is "lost loyalty". Your current company may look at you differently. However, I think that most companies no longer care how loyal you are to them as evidenced by the staggering amount of layoffs in the last few years.
I did have a friend accept a counter-offer. He stayed at the job for about 18 months before he left for another job.
The point is that maybe there is something you're aren't happy with at you current company.
Make sure you know your direct manager well before accepting the raise. You'd also do well to get input from other long-term employees (if any) about your company's psychology and upper management's view on such things.
The company I'm at now, if a counter-offer were made, would become pretty hostile if I were to accept and stay. I'd be treated as a beggar.
One of the corporations I worked at previously, gave a counter when I was ready to leave. I stayed, with a nearly 33% raise. My immediate manager was really pissed off for a while, but upper management saw it as a good thing, and my relationship with the company didn't suffer, and I subsequently moved up quickly through the positions.
Bottom line: If your company isn't going to hold a grudge, it's the path of least resistance to stay and accept.
But take a quick look around, and ask yourself if you were seeking new employment solely for a pay increase, or are there other reasons you wanted to leave.
... or stay, depending on your inclination. =)
Seriously, though, if the job is nice and the people there finally realize your worth and give you a nicer salary, why leave?
Better the devil you know than the four devils you don't know, as someone said...
The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
However, 99.99% of organizations will behave exactly as the 10 reasons describe. Yes, I know, it was corporate employers who destroyed the idea of corporate loyalty in the 1980s. It is corporate employers who dump their long-timers to reduce medical costs and grab the pension money. It is corporate employers who will lay off 10,000 people to get a 1% pop in the stock price.
But the very same people who do these things will turn around and destroy the career of a person who accepts a counteroffer. Why? They have "shown disloyalty". Doesn't make sense, I know, but that is the way it is. Take the original offer and don't look back.
sPh
I work at a Big 10 University, and here counter-offers are the *only* way to get substantial pay raises. It's the recognized method of getting raises - you find a company that will offer you more money, then you show it the University, and they make a counter-offer to keep you.
All the professors who are anybody have done this multiple times, and professional non-academic staff do it as well. Go for it.
I did not design this game/I did not name the stakes/I just happen to like apples/And I am not afraid of snakes-AniD
Answering only for myself: hell yes. Everybody in this world is somebody's whore. This is a simple fact of life, even if you pretend that it's otherwise (because you're an entrepreneur, or a "self-made man," or a rich spoiled brat with a trust fund). As long as I'm working in the computer field, not extending Microsoft's monopoly, and not building weapons, I'm A-OK. Other people's standards may vary.
Finding God in a Dog
You've established that you're ready to leave the company if the offer is right. Yes, you get more money by taking the counter-offer. But here's what you lose:
- Your boss has to re-think any long-term plans that include your participation because a new offer with more money can come along at any time. The tough, interesting jobs are more likely to go to employees whom your boss can count on to stick around for a while.
- You've been given a lot more money up front, but it's going to be tempting for them to get some of it back in the form of fewer raises, bonuses, etc.
- If this increase puts you at market average wage, that means your current boss was comfortable paying you only 50% of what you were worth. Do you really want to work for your current employer?
There are two ways I can see this having played out in your current employer's mind.
1. Crap. This one's leaving, but I gotta keep him here for now. I'll give him a raise, get him to finish the project, and see what happens later.
2. This is what I get for not paying attention to pay rates enough. This guy really is worth more than he's getting to me; after all, I was paying him more before the dotcom bust. Maybe I'll offer him the raise he deserves.
Obviously, #1 implies your employer sees you as a merc for hire. #2 means your employer actually cares. Believe me, I've been around enough to know that #2 is practically worth working for at your current pay (assuming it's enough to live on).
You know your employer better than I do. The question is, do you think your employer cares about you and your career? If so, I'd take the counteroffer, and just to make your loyalty clear, work some longer hours for a while to show how much you appreciate it. If you think #1 is closer to the case, decline politely and enjoy your new job.
Lately democracy seems to be based on the skybox, the Happy Meal box, the X-box, and the idiot box.
If they countered and you are slow enough not to consider they are buying time to get a replacement or harbor ill will about all this your going to get what you deserve.
If they do think your worth keeping, and are willing to match the salary. Go for the gold! Ask for a little bit more and a golden parachute. IE> get a contract for a "if i get fired" you give me (name a number you think would cover your distress). When they freak just say "hey, you guys want to keep me, and I want to stay but I need some assurances that this is not going to go bad on me. After such day this contract is null and void." Make it 6 months or a year or whateveryou want. Just cover your butt, at this point your in control because you have out.
I am not saying grill them, I am just saying your in a good position to cover your ass and get some things you want. Remember something made you want a different job figure out what that was and really look to see if it changed. I don'tthink it was all the money. It never is.
Neck_of_the_Woods
#/usr/local/surf/glassy/overhead
One of the "tips" from the linked reasons never to accept a counter-offer:
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
I've seen this sentiment on occasion, and all I have to say is this: Welcome to the real world.
In the real world, the squeeky wheel gets the grease. Yes, sometimes you will get what you "deserve", but more often you have to ask for it. That doesn't mean you go into your bosses office every week like a prima donna and bang on his desk.
What you do is do your research, and when it's review time you show your worth in the market. If they want to pay, then great. If they don't, then you have a decision to make. Money isn't everything -- you might like working there for less money. You might like the environment. On the hand, you might want different challenges for more money.
The point is that the decision is in your hands. Too many people think that all the power is in the hands of "the boss". It isn't. You have as little or as much power as you decide to have. Note that your power is dependent on your worth. The worthless -- or percieved worthless -- employee is not going to have that much power no matter how many salary surveys they are able to show.
Bottom line: Ignore all this stupid advice. Be a professional: You are in business for yourself, and your employer is your client. Decide whether they are worth having as a client. If there is some "retaliation" as that silly list of reasons seems to think, then move on to the next company. Big deal.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this
day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
If you are valuable to the company, loyalty isn't an issue. If you
aren't, you should worry anyway.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is
loyal and who is not.
See above.
When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
See above.
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow
to your personal pride; you were bought.
You're bought no matter where you go. You think that CEOs aren't
bought? They are, and they're a lot more successful at it than anyone
reading slashdot.
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies
have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your
next raise early?
Sounds good to me. And the company sees that as real money. They prefer to delay expenses when possible.
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a
cheaper price.
Again, only if you aren't all that valuable to start with.
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will
repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
So in the meanwhile you've made more money. And maybe you get another
counteroffer the next time you get fed up.
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of
voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is
extremely high.
Again, so what?
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your
co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal
satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
I accepted a counter-offer. Not clear if my co-workers know, but my
relationship with them gas been fine. Again, if you are worth the
money, no one in his right mind will object to you getting it.
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign
before they will give you what you are worth?
They're all like that. Get over it.
Is your motivation money only? Are you otherwise happy with your position?
I really think that whether or not you accept a counter offer depends on the nature of the company you work for. If you think that the belief system of the company is based around these ideas, then maybe it would be best not to stay. I have issues with almost all of these points. These points are based on a cut-throat enviroment based on suspision and distrust. I have found that this is generally *not* the case in an enviromnent where the company's success is dependant on creative and happy employees.
I don't know anyone who wants to work for boss pinhead. But If you don't have a corporate environment based on suspicion and distrust, then I don't see that accepting a counter offer under the following conditions would be all that bad:
1. Did you *ask* for a raise or promotion?
If not, then you don't know
2. are you generally happy where you are working?
3. are you advancing your career reasonably?
4. how do you get along with your co-workers? your bosses?
these are some simple metrics. The decision is of course based on a good deal of factors.
SCO to Hell
Ive accepted a counter offer before: My current employer at the time matched what a startup had offered me, and I accepted: no need to switch jobs or anything.
They asked me if I was unhappy, I said no, not really, it was just that I was surprised that I was offered so much money, and I would much rather stay where I was (especially with the 25% raise).
I say counter-offers are great.
When I broke the news, well they bumped the number up again another 30%, making it over a 50% raise since before all the haggling began. My current employer, being a govt contractor, couldn't go that high (the govt has limits on how much you can pay employees) so I took the counter-counter offer in the end.
It turns out the whole thing was very enlighting on how low the ceiling was for me at my old position, even though I liked the job/people/etc, you have to go where the money is.
Post the name of your company, and then ask anybody that's worked for that company, and worked under your boss to post personal experiences. That's the only way you're going to get useful information.
...you should never accept a counter-offer:
0. We don't get commision if you stay in your old job!
-- Proud descendant of semi-nomadic cattle-herders.
You followed protocol, and gave your employeer notice, if you think the counter offer is genuine and you would really rather stay, then by all means accept.
As for that "10 reasons" link, it seems to have been written by a headhunter, to dissuade people being relocated to stay. In other words it is completely biased against counter offers cause it would cost the headhunter money if people accepted them.
Depending on where you work, how you get more money varies. Some places you have to threaten to quit. Others will give you a raise if you tell them you think you're underpaid (and they agree). Almost no employer will voluntarily increase your pay outside of a scheduled review.
Ignore anyone who tells you that if they valued you they'd be paying you more without you having to quit. That's nonsense. You might love your car, but when you went to the dealer you tried to get the best price you could. Maybe you even threatened to go to a different dealer. Interviewing at other companies is a legitimate tactic in salary negotiations. However, if you don't let your current employer know that salary negotiations are going on, they can get upset.
--
E_NOSIG
I've been offered counter offers twice now...And taken them. Once it was good and once it was bad.
If the _only_ reason you were looking for a new job was pay then take the counter offer. You will be even happier with a bunch more cash.
Of course if there are other reasons then you might want to leave. I have stayed because of cash and some stuff still sucked. Of course you get to ride the gravy train for a few more months until you finally decide to leave...
Oh, And those people who say 'do you really want to work for a company who only offers you a pay rise if you threaten to leave?'. Wake up! What you have when you are employed is a contract for them to pay you x and for you to do x. If either side is unhappy then they should bring up the issue. I have asked for payrises before and more often than not got them. If I sat on my arse and not asked then I wouldn't have got them. Also if they offer you a pay rise at a yearly review and its not enough, ask for more. They can only say no.
/b
[Please type your sig here.]
What you should do is carefully examine your current responsibilities. Do they only offer you the money because you need to finish a certain high profile project? Is your work kind of seasonal, a lot of high stress followed by a lot of little work? If so you chances are that you will be booted out after your current project fails. However, as I wrote in the headline, I made a different experience. In my case I directly went to the CEO explaining the reasons for why I might be leaving. I told him that I do not have any other reasons than a 40% pay raise to leave. That I don't know what to do because it is just unrealistic to not take that kind of money at another respected company, no dot.gone company. He then almost matched the offer (35% raise) and it turned out good for me. Good luck!
Counter offers are a dangerous thing. I once accepted one only to quit three months later. That was because the extra cash and new job title really didn't change the things that I hated about the company I was in at the time.
They are flattering when you get them, but step back and look at your situation critically. Consider things like these:
- Is an increase in your present company with no other changes in the environment going to make you happy?
- Maybe the place you're going to has better job security over your present job?
- Are there other factors that are making you look for another position other than money?
You also have to consider the fact that you have now telegraphed your "dislike" for your present company. Your present employer isn't going to be thrilled that you're leaving and you may find that it is difficult to work there going forward.
I won't deny that it's a tough decision, but the safe route IMHO is to say no and move on.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
off 1 month later. You are better with a fresh start rather then the possibility of being seen as not loyal.
1st are you really happy at the job you are at? Will the new job offer anything besides money? How about perks? Even little things like free coffee can make a difference.
2nd Did the first job just match the new job's money without anything else... That's not an incentive to stay, that's an incentive to not bother looking.
3rd What do you want to do with your life in the big picture? How do you want to be remembered? Which of these jobs best fit that?
4th Money. When are pay reviews scheduled for each job? What beneifits does each job have? (Health/dental etc).
5th Distance. This has become important to me. It takes me 3/4 hour to get to work, and that hour and a half a day I would much rather put to other use. Which job is closer to home?
All in all, make a list of your reasons, give each reason an importance value, and sum the totals. If you aren't happy with the answer then do it again. (after all there is no cheating here, it's your life).>
The main reason is quite simple: they were seeing what they could get away with. They were not paying you what you were worth; rather, they were paying you what they thought you'd tolerate. I NEVER work for people like that. You should politely tell your manager, "Thanks for the offer, but why did you not pay me that in the first place?" It's always interesting to see them squirm.
I started my own consulting business for that very reason. When people ask me to lower my rates, I politely say, sorry, but that's what I'm worth. If you think you can find others, you're more than welcome to. Some walk, some don't. Yet, today, I've got an international client base and billables over $350K per person. It's gotta be working some way. Mercedes-Benz don't drop their prices below a certain point. That's the price of quality.
OTOH, as a guy who started and sold a dot com, I can also tell you that you should have indicated some concerns BEFORE you began looking. That gives the employer a chance to re-evaluate. Sadly, in the States, you could get fired right there. Businesses here suck about loyalty.
On a side note: I always made it a rule to tell employees that they should ALWAYS come to me with issues. No one works for me forever, so if you're not happy, that's fine. Either we can make you happy, or _I_ can help you get the next job. Who knows where you'll be in 5 years? I might need your help then! It's always worked for me, and I showed the same respect to my employees and teams as well.
Rememnber, it's all about mutual respect.
---
Not only that, but the company's web site that wrote the 10 reasons is a RECRUITER! Of course they don't want you to take a counteroffer--THEY WON'T GET PAID. It's just as biased as if Microsoft offered a 10 reasons not to use Linux page.
sig--we don't need no goddamn sig
About a year ago I had an offer from a contracting agency for almost double my existing salary. After some thought, I decided to give my current employer a chance to match. I didn't really expect them too... However, after presenting my boss with the information, it took less than an hour for them to not just match, but offer me more than the contracting agency!
My point is this. If you want to increase your salary well beyond the (typical) annual 4%, you usually have to go out and find a new job. However, if you _really_ enjoy where you work, it's definitely worth the risk of asking for them to match. What do you have to lose?
Go here for teh [sic] funny.
Bullsh*t. There isn't anything to "think about". Re-read the post. It doesn't say anything about threats or the current employer not raising his salary.
The employer has a responsiblity to get the most for the least. When they found out they were in danger of losing someone they valued, they took away the reason for him leaving.
I suppose when you are shopping around, you will look for the most expensive? "Hey, why would I pay $10 here, when I can pay $100 there. Think about it."
Employment is (or should be!) a more complicated situation than "how much cash am I given". If money was your sole reason for leaving and you were happy otherwise, then hey, the counteroffer should be fine. On the other hand, if there were other factors -- job duties, coworkers, schedule, general happiness, whatever -- then you need to consider whether the counteroffer addresses those. If it's just a larger bribe to tolerate a still-bad situation, you probably don't want to stay. If, on the other hand, your employer really doesn't want to lose you and demonstrates an effort to make you stay, than you should definitely consider it.
Having seen management from both ends of the spectrum, plenty of times someone's pay is what it is and no one thinks "Gee, we're really giving X the shaft, woo hoo!" on a regular basis. You're just on their radar in that way. Suddenly, you say you've gotten a nice offer and are considering it and they realize that they could and would like to keep you. Counter offer made. Nine times out of ten, they aren't going to suspect you or distrust you. A counter offer represents a statement of their valuation of you.
No one here can tell you how to decide, but don't let your decision to decline the counter offer be based on imagined suspicions of you. Most managers I know, and when I was one myself, just don't have the time. If you're valued, you're valued. --> Which is what some folks have already said: what kind of boss is this counter offer coming from. If he's a good guy, it's an honest re-evaluation of your importance. If he's not, then, yeah, maybe the counter offer isn't such a good idea.
We assign value to our employees because we recognize that our business depends on having skilled, dependable, professional people.
We assign value to our employees because we have a certain task that needs to be done a certain way in a certain amount of time for a certain cost.
A perfect example of a firm that follows the latter school of thought would be the Professional Services arm of EMC. In my time there, I found that institutionally, they regarded their employees as distateful things that they had to have around. There was a high amount of demand on the employee to accomplish tasks in a certain fashion on a certain timetable. The employee's input on that timetable or execution process was not very highly sought after. Employees were laid off, while workload was increased in an effort to maximize profits. While maximizing profits is not a Bad Thing, attempting to do it in this fashion is not wise, long term. The result is that the majority of the folks employed there are looking to jump ship: Contractors were hired on at a third of their contracting weekly take -- their other choice was to simply have their contract cancelled (this, of course, at the same time that the job market was heading downward. In this environment, the employer has very little regard for the employee, and is a pretty awful place to work: If you try to leave you will be coerced either with money, or with an implied threat of your new employer (who happens to be an EMC customer) getting trouble if they hire you -- no matter if your contact with that client was through EMC or not, and no matter if there was any teaming agreement in place.
The other end of that spectrum is the company which has more long-term vision: They are also interested in maximizing profits, but they realize that their operations will run more smoothly if they reciprocate some of the loyalty that they expect from their employees. In this instance, the employer might make a demand of you (for example, sacrifice 18 hours of a weekend in a data centre), however, they will realize that this is a hardship and rather than just have you suck it up, give you something in return (a few days off, for example).
If the company has no loyalty to you, expect that every time you need something, you'll have to complain loudyly. If, however, they realize that a happy employee will be a very productive one, they will nearly always treat you fairly and rarely put you in a position where you need to make demands
I think you should take the counteroffer. As you stated, you're happy at your current job and the only incentive for leaving was money; with that removed, I don't see why you should leave.
And to all the people talking about how you'll be branded disloyal... come on, use your brains. I have been in that exact situation. I went to my boss and told him pretty much: "I'm really happy here, I like the job, but I got this offer for this much more money andI'll probably take it". Now, unless your boss is a total dick, he can understand that a 50 percent raise is one heckuva incentive. If he goes to bat for you to get a similar raise, I say take it.
There should be no hard feelings, since your actions were perfectly reasonable. I don't think any boss will brand you as disloyal because you had intentions of earning 50 percent more; in fact, they might despise you if you didn't.
The best case would have been to go to your boss before accepting the other offer and saying you're having a hard time deciding; but even in your situation, I think you can make your boss empathize with your decision.
If you accept this counter offer you are sending a message: he can be underpaid for a long time before we have to bring him up to norms.
So for those of us who have not found a better job - YET - please refuse the coutner offer. Make management become pro-active in keeping those who are worth keeping. I personally hate looking for a new job, but I see some writing on the wall, and I think I'm worth more. If everyone refused counter offers, management would be forced to do their job of getting to know me and figguring out what I'm worth to the company now instead of what I'm worth elsewhere.
Simply put, I've been here for a few years. I know obscure details of the system that most of the other programers don't know. If I leave they lose the knowledge I can pull out of my head as needed. Depending on the situation that means either reading documentation (typically out of date), code (at least it is accurate, but you miss the subtil points), or finding bugs in testing instead of design. Appearently the company doesn't agree that my expirence is worth much though, or they would pay me for it.
The first question is, if they can afford to pay more for you and feel that you are worth more, why didn't they pay you that in the first place? The reason they haven't paid you is because they thought they could get away with it (and they have). So you're working for a company that doesn't value the work that you do enough to pay you it.
Secondly, what will happen if you take the money? You're now earning more than your co-workers, who probably are being stiffed by your company as well. This means that the next performance review that comes around, the company will use the reason that you're earning more to give you a lower pay rise than your co-workers.
You'll more than likely find that if you stayed for the next couple of years that the gap between your salary and that of your co-workers will be reduced as they seek to return you back to the standardised pay-scale that is throughout the organisation.
In the end, your extra money will be worth very little as every review, your co-workers will get closer to you.
You have a job offer doing the same work from a company that appreciates your worth. Congratulations and I hope it goes well.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
I just glanced at the about.com reasons to never accept a counter-offer. They seem geared towards a disgruntled employee who has no loyalty to a company. In reality counter-offers are good tools to maintain fairness in the job market. This answer seems like a "union-shop" answer, and many people in technology companies do not participate... or have them at all.
;>)
... if I wasn't for me keeping on the ball my salary would be the same too.
If a potential company seeks you out it is your right to check it out. This is one of the many ways that you can do market research. If you are worth 80 thousand anywhere else in the market and only getting paid 50 - most companies don't readily give out 30 thousand dollar raises (unless your Enron
As for loyalty, I've stayed (essentially) at the same company through 15 managers, and a buyout. Essentially the entire food chain above me changed
Just my $0.02.
I was looking at another job. It wasn't the money, it was the bosses boss that was a pain. I was given a counter-offer. I still took the other job. 3 months later I was back at the first job with an even higher salary. That was 4 years ago...I've not been on any chopping blocks or anything.
Only thing in my advantage is that everyone knew what a pain the head boss was, so they could see my PoV
One company I worked at, often they wouldn't OFFER you raises unless you threatened to leave. It was some sick part of the company's culture. Some of the highest payed people, and who worked there the longest (14, 15, 16 years) got where they were by entertaining outside offers every so often. It was a weird company anyway, true, but mentioning you had been offered X amount more by someone else sure didn't seem to be frowned upon.
I take issue with an item from that "list":
* Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
I have NEVER seen this to hold true. Usually, if you're in that position, your co-workers will understand where you're coming from, and no one treats you differently. If anything, they respect you for taking a stand. Especially in a low-morale corporate culture.
The linked-to reasons are all fair reasons for not even asking for a counter offer (i.e. just leaving). But they're not reasons for not accepting one if it's offered. In particular, the concept of loyalty is pathetically outdated. It might be mutual in a very small company (under 10 people, say), but anything over that and you can be damn sure that the guy in charge will feign - hey, perhaps even feel - reciprocal loyalty to the staff... right up to the point where times get hard. Then the rationalising and self justification kicks in, and everybody starts to look like a drain on resources. And that's not just in huge companies: look at the way that Loki employees got screwed in return for their loyalty.
Hell, if it makes you feel better, knock 10% off of what they're offering you and tell them that's what you actually think you're worth. Are you going to do that? Of course you're not.
This must rank as one of the dumbest questions I've ever seen posted on Slashdot.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Despite all the naysaying, there are definite times when a counter-offer is the way to go. If you truly love your job and the people you work with, and they're finally going to give you that last thing that really completes the picture -- money -- then maybe staying is the way to go.
I hit a situation a couple of years ago, when the dot com bubble was still running strong, where I had gotten a big raise - yet learned that new hires, whom I was training, were making more than 10k above what I was. I went out and fished up another job, brought the offer to my boss (whom I trusted), and told him that I knew I wasn't making fair market value. I told him that I wanted him to know *first*, before announcing my resignation, before I signed this offer letter, printed on the other company's letterhead. I asked him what we could do about this - if my company truly wanted to keep me, or if they were only partly satisfied with my work, and didn't feel I was worth the extra expense.
A few days of negotiation later, my company followed suit, and matched the offer. With the exception of grumbling about the assignments I've been placed on lately - a move precipitated by losing most of our software development contracts, rather than any kind of managerial backlash - the job has stayed good, my relationship with my employer is solid, and I don't have to worry about looking for any low-paying work in today's crunched market.
The counter-offer payed off for me.
Every situation is different. Analyze it, use your brain, and make the call. You'll be alright.
The company gave you a pay cut because they thought they could get away with it given the current economy. So let's clear the air and say they already don't care about you. Most companies view employees as "resources" not as people anyway.
No company expects loyalty when they aren't loyal. So don't refuse the counter offer on the grounds they will look for revenge. They won't. Nobody gives you a 50% raise then fires you. It just doesn't make economic sense. And co-workers won't hate you because you make more money, they would do the same in your position.
What it comes down to is where you would like working better. If you like your current job and the people you work with stay. If you think the new company looks like a better place to work then go there.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human.
What you are going to read here are two sides of the same truth. You will have idealists who believe that the company is doing nothing more than making a good-will offer to keep a good employee with the company. You will also have cynnicists who will tell you that they now no longer trust you, as you are unloyal; and are ripe to be cut.
Neither and both are likely true, to one degree or another.
I work for a large corporation (30,000 emploees), and have seen counter-offered employees treated both ways. Generally, the end result is decided by the actions of the employee, not the corporation or management. The employee will perceive things and act on those perceptions, whether there is merit to their paranoia or not. There have been a few poorly-reared managers who have given "theatened-to-leave but stayed" employees a hard time, but this is the exception and is not necessarily a reflection on corporate culture. I can see this being a bigger POTENTIAL problem in smaller companies, where the politics tend to be more vicious.
My advice it to take the offer; changing companies is a lot hard than staying put for the same money. Sit back and relax, and if anything bad happens, or people really do give you a hard time... you can obviously find a job somewhere else if you have to.
SlashSigTheorem: Humorous, Political, Critical, Constructive- If you have a
So you need to search for another environment. A judicious selection of the new environment is important. But the most important thing is that you won't be in an statis anymore, you will be moving. Your entrance in the new environment will probably upset all existing... well... equilibria (hey, that's nice, probably even correct!
Of course, if you "only" want an easy well payed job for all your life, please keep to the known environments.
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
If you are in any skill-oriented business, and you are competent, this doesnt apply imo.
Ive had experience with offers and counter offers, and when accepting a counter offer the original employer has always been happy to retain you.
If you go out of your way to strongarm the company, well they might just not make a counter offer: so be ready for that. Never come to them without something solid: a printed offer letter is perfect.
And you have to be amicable, something like: "Boss, company X is trying to made me this offer, here look. Im happy here, but I am considering it..."
or something to that effect.
Most of the reasons listed for avoiding price negotiations are employer FUD from those who dont like to see people getting paid what their worth, and want to treat employees as interchangeable cogs in a machine.
The only way to earn what you produce is to let employers decide how much youre worth to them. If you only consider offers in a vacuum, then you are cheating yourself.
I think every situation is unique and you should go with your gut.
A good friend of mine was underpaid and overworked. He threatened to go, got a counteroffer, and while he's still overworked he's no longer (as) underpaid. Those who were close to him knew about this, and none of us changed how we felt about him. In fact, we all felt he was overworked and likely underpaid, and we were happy to hear he got some of what he was due. I've since moved on from that group, but I've stayed in touch, and this guy is still in a very high-profile position and has evidently been getting regular-enough raises that he hasn't felt the need to leave again. Heck, he's lasted a lot longer than anyone he's worked for has.
As for your manager not respecting you, I have to repeat what has already been said. What you add to your group is infinitely more important than how much money you make or whether your boss thinks you're "loyal."
So, if you feel the current job is the one for you, take it. If the other job is some world-shattering oppurtunity, take that instead. But don't let the conventional wisdom scare you out of doing what you want.
Not representing or approved by my company or anybody else.
I've accepted counter-offers before, and it hasn't really been a problem. I don't discuss it with coworkers, though, and I've got an advantage in that the folks at the corporate office who decide such things are at a comfortable distance and I don't deal with them on a regular basis.
The fact is, in this industry sometimes that's the only way to establish your fair market value. I've got commitments where I'm at, and my current employer arguably needs me more than anyone else, but they'd better be prepared to pay me what I'm worth.
There are all sorts of things to look at when deciding to accept/reject a counter offer. Most importantly, take advantage of the fact that you now have a choice.
One is: Just how good is your current employer? If they spuriously gave you a 30% pay cut on the premise of the dot-com bust, are they likely to do it again? Are they willing to give you a written promise that you will keep your new job/salary for a long period of time? How stable is the company if it had to give it's employees a 30-50% pay cut? If this is actually an issue, are they willing to offer you a golden parachute? More to the point: Just how much do you trust your current company (or -- for that matter -- the company that made the first offer).
You also have to consider peer-acceptence whether you stay or go. If this presages a general increase in wages, your peers may love you for what you are setting in motion.
You may want to talk to your peers. They may have info on your current company that influences your go/no-go decision. You may (or may not) want to get into the details of 50%, but you can probably let them know that you now have offers from another company and your boss, and you need to make a choice. If nothing else, they'll find out when you've left.. Why not do them the honor of letting them know now.
Also: consider that the "never accept a counter-offer" pages are possibly put up by head-hunters who only make money if they get your head. ... ... ...)
They don't actually care about your career. They only care about the money that they get for placing you (and then for placing your replacement -- and then replacing that replacement
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
Company personnel departments can subscribe to salary surveys that are a slightly more accurate version of what I can find on Jobserve. Same problem.
From the point of view of the company, the value of an employee is the money they will earn if they hire him/er minus the money they will make if they don't, and also minus the costs of employing that person (about 50% of which is the salary, and the other 50% is desk, office space, electricity bills, computer, 10% of the cost of a manager, etc).
Any sum involving a big approximate number minus another big approximate number is going to have a huge error bar on the answer. For a software engineer the error bar probably exceeds the salary.
So managers, who perforce must make decisions regardless of the absence of evidence, fall back on rules of thumb. The first rule is, pay the going rate for that job title, hence those salary surveys. The second rule of thumb is that staff turnover is expensive. Every time you hire someone you commit money to teaching them the ropes until they become productive (whenever that is, see above), and also take a risk that this investment will be written off if they turn out to be bozos, or just up and leave in six months.
So, are you worth another 50% to your current employer? Possibly. Your management guesses so, but they might be wrong.
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
At my last job, I was extended and accepted a counter-offer when I was out looking for a job. The key is to be honest with everyone involved, including yourself. Before you step out the door (or onto DICE.COM) consider why you are looking for a new job and what would resolve the problem you are trying to address. Is it just money? Then a counteroffer should be in your considerations. Is it appreciation, management style, duties, etc.? Then maybe not. Then once you have decided the options, be sure to tell your recruiter and/or interviewer that you plan to entertain counteroffers from your current employer. They will let you know how that sits with them - some will decide then and there NOT to extend an offer because they want you definitely; others will be encouraged because it means you will extend THEM the same courtesy when/if you decide to leave their employ. This can work out for both sides.
My first time looking for a new job, a counteroffer was possible. My reasons for leaving were general dissatisfaction and lack of appreciation. I got an offer, came to my boss and laid all the cards on the table. He agreed to match the offer AND to address my other issues. The company improved and I got paid better. Next time around, my reasons for leaving were lost trust in a different manager and a belief that they were phasing out my department. This time, the counteroffer was again extended, but it was never an issue. I refused and am happily at the new job.
The new job has a *starting salary* of X. You will get more than that there soon after you start.
Your current job is willing to give you a *raise* up to X. And you already know that they don't want to pay you that much, so it'll be a long time before you get more than that. They think they're doing you a favor-- when they're really just doing themselves a favor.
In the new job, you'll most likely get a raise in 3-6 months after you prove yourself. A year tops...
Some managers may actually be genuine in matching the offer and hoping that you'll stay on. They already have a proven resource, and the time and expense of replacing you justifies giving you the raise.
Other management however, is going to see it as a breech of trust. Any offer they make will only be to keep you happy long enough to find a suitable replacement.
So I guess the real question is, what is your relationship with management like? Have you seen how they have dealt with others in your company in this situation in the past?
Those should be the factors you weigh when considering this counter-offer.
The original poster just went about it the wrong way in my opinion. It's like auto-insurance. Some people aren't happy with what they've got, but instead of trying to work it out, they first start shopping elsewhere and only "break the news" when they're ready to leave.
If you come straight out and say you think you deserve a little more, the company may not be as likely to respond favorably, but they also won't treat you like an employee that will be ready to bolt at the first sign of a marginally better prospect. Loyalty may be a lost thing to the big corporations, but it does make a difference to your immediate superiors, and generally they're the ones that have the say in whether you do get that raise or promotion.
But hell, if they turn you down, by all means shop around. Personally, I'm always on the look-out, but it's got to be significantly better than what I have before I'd entertain actually leaving.
... and I can tell you from experience that when a company makes you a counter-offer, they are only biding their time before replacing you. If the original offer you received is so much more than what you were making and the company wants to match, you've just screwed up their pay scale. Also, unless you were well-loved by your superiors and/or indispensable, you're now considered untrustworthy and thought to be ready to bolt at anytime.
Get over yourself.
It is not right or wrong. It is simply up to you to decide what it is that is best for you in your situation. They made the offer because they want to keep you.
It is then up to you to decide which you want. If you feel you can stay in your current position and continue to do your job well, no bad blood, etcetera, then do so.
If you feel a change of jobs would do you good, change.
Just keep in mind when it comes to hiring... a company that can woo you with money can quickly dump you as well.
I was in the position of having one of my employees come up with the "I would really like to stay but this other company wants to pay me so much more" story end of october last year. Well, the guy was critical for the project at this time, and was doing a pretty good job, so I was really willing to give him a little more. He demanded a pretty high "little more", though - something we thought he was not worth. So we signed in. I had him prepare the documentation with our office manager which he simply never did (really - we were willing to delay this for a week to save off his higher pay for a month - it was end of the month - but he managed not to turn up for the new contracts for two months). So what happened is that he got fired 22nd of december, just in time to end his working contract end of the year, and with his end holidays EXACTLY matching the rest of the month's work days. Sure his other company had another guy by then. Point is - you dont demand a higher salary in a project being critical and put another company onto the table as leverage. Put the market there (average pay, prooven by an independant newspaper or so), and be reasonable. But never accept counter offers. Propably you are just not replacable fast enough. THONA
Did you ever ask for a raise or express that you were less than happy with your current salary to your current employer? If so, did they ignore you or blow you off? If that is the case, I'd be a little more concerned about their counter-offer.
On the other hand, if you never have asked for a raise, how is your employer supposed to know you felt underpaid? A business isn't a charity. They aren't going to simply hand you a 50% raise out of the blue if you seem to be happy with (i.e. quiet about) your current situation. For all you know, they might have been willing to give you a similar raise if you had simply asked.
DennyK
When you go to your current boss, don't tell them you have been offered a job somewhere else, just ask for a raise. That way you get an idea about how valuable you are without them knowing for sure if you've shopping around....
I've read a lot of insightful posts here about this topic but I think one thing that's missing from a lot of them is what you think about the long-term prospects of each company. You've already said that you took a big pay cut due to the dot-com bubble bursting. I'm assuming that all your co-workers got pay cuts, too. If they didn't, then you need to jump ship. But that's obvious. What you didn't really mention is whether the alternate company is also a dot-com. Are they also in bad shape? How much has their stock price dropped compared to your company? Have you talked with employees of your potential new employeer? Are they happy? Have they taken a big pay cut?
If the company likes you enough to match the offer, and you are otherwise happy where you are, take it.
I think you need to seriously think about the and you are otherwise happy where you are part of this guy's response. And don't just accept your old employeer because it's comfortable and easy to do (don't have to move, etc.). Give serious thought as to whether you think your company is going to survive the dot-com burst. And whether you think they'll keep most of the employees they have when/if they do rebound.
GMD
watch this
I'd never accept a counteroffer. I've seen too many folks get burned - they're generally kept until the project they're on is complete then either fired or never given a good assignment again. I had a friend do this, then there was a downturn in the industry. He got every crap job that came along, no raises or promotions, and there was nothing he could do about it because nobody was hiring. After the job market picked up it was years before he got another offer because his resume was now a piece of toilet paper!
Also, if you renege word does get around. I will stick with the deal I made on an interview, though I will tell the new company about changes in circumstances.
I once had an interview, liked the job, and we set a tentative price. When I got back to work my boss called me in -- he'd wrangled an early performance raise (3 months early & more than I had expected) plus an additional raise as a retention inducement. I was now making just $1 a year less than what I'd told the new place I'd work for.
At this point I was going to make the move anyway, I had made the deal and intended to stick to it, though I'd certainly tell them what had changed. The new folks called -- they'd verified my credentials, made the offer we agreed on. I told the personel worker bee what had happenned and as I was about to accept she slammed the phone down! I called her boss -- told him what happenned. He asked when I'd start -- I told him that his employee's behavior absolved my concience & I wouldn't want to work for them.
Nearly 10 years later I had a great phone interview with the same company, but in another state. At the end of the interview they all but offerred me the job. I never heard back. It took a couple of phone calls before anybody would talk to me -- I was told that they had a black-list. If you ever turned down an offer you were put on the black-list and nobody, in any division, was allowed to hire you. Employees who quit were also put on the list.
BTW: The company went down the tubes long ago.
Exercise for the student: Why did this company go out of business?
"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." --Napoleon Bonaparte
When it comes down to it, only you know the corporate culture in which you work. Ultimately, your boss is either your friend or a businessman. There are bosses that actually care about their employees and their well-being; there are some bosses that do a "spring cleaning" every year to get rid of people that are too expensive or otherwise not earning their pay. When it comes down to it, only you know the culture you work in and whether it would be wise to stay or go.
"If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards."
It all depends on how you handle the situation...if you go to your boss and say, "I've got an offer from company X where I'll be making $Y, match it or you lose me," then don't expect good treatment further on down the road.
If you say to your boss, "I like this company and the team I'm working with, but I just have to put my own career in front some times," more than likely you'll save face.
"The market alone cannot provide sufficient constraints on corporation's penchant to cause harm." -- Joel Bakan
See my other reply to this topic. It is management's job to make sure I'm paid exactly what I'm worth to the company, no more or less. Inflation, expirence, and education, and the job market all are factors that, and reasons to give someone a raise. If they are not looking at market value, then they are not doing their job!
Sure I need to look at my market value from time to time, but I don't get paid to do that, so I have to look on my own time. The boss gets paid to know what I'm worth, if he doesn't know my market value, then he failed to do his job.
It sounds like a lot of Slashdotters have adversarial relationships with their employers, and that's too bad, but if you have a good relationship with your organization, and you have a position they can't easily fill (after all, so many jobs depend more on local knowledge rather than general skill level)), then just tactfully state that another offer is out there and you'd be hard-pressed not to take it. At the least, getting a counter-offer is one more option than hearing "actually, no, we can't pay you that." Reaction to getting more money depends totally on where you work; there is no pat answer for that.
On the other hand, if you're just another drone whose job is duplicated by many other employees, take the original offer and get a better chance to distinguish yourself.
I'd have a personalized plate on my car, but "toxic bachelor" won't fit into 7 letters.
I was once in a very similar situation. Although I did not go thru a salary reduction, the place became a terrible place to work at after the first wave of layoffs. The best people got canned, and those with seniority survived that first wave. These were the folks who did little work. I ended up having to do the work of 5 poeple and it sucked, while the surviving seniors still sat around on their butts pretending to work. I found a new job with more pay, but let the current employer talk me into staying with a matching pay increase. The work still stayed the same... sweatshop-like, but now my bosses had a bad attitude towards me for having had the gall to look for another job in the first place and "forceing them to pay me more to stay". The job then sucked worse for a few more months meanwhile the new job offer vanished and I had to wait even months longer before another new job offer came along that was agreeable, when it did, I bolted outta the current job asap, no pleading from my current boss would change my mind. I explained to him, as dryly and factually as a Vulcan would have explained, why my perspective of my current job just wasn't fair to me anymore and thus the reason for me wanting to leave. He couldn't argue with my reasons, they were all true, and I parted company in a civil manner, not burning any bridges. My predictions of the further downward spiral of that company all came true exactly as I said they would. After a couple more waves of layoffs, my former boss, who was now a vice-pres of the company finally decided to stand up to the senior management in support of what was left of his staff who were being treated geniunely unfairly, he got laid off for this... if only he would've had the balls to stand up earlier, he might have made a difference. Meanwhile I'm still happily employed at my new job.
Run, don't walk... to that new job.
I have experienced this recently. I started working for Company X as a "tech kiddie." That early stage in a computer professional's career where he makes something like $10-$12 an hour. As time went on my skills increased, through my work and my own self-learning. I also learned from conferences and tutorials I attended on my own money and on scholarships and grants I earned.
Although my company contributed to the growth of my skills, they paid me by the hour for that time so I don't owe them anything for the learning I gained on their clock time.
So after working for Company X for 3 years, and being tapped as a programmer (skills partially from college that I pay for) and a network administrator, my pay was still $11.50 an hour. My friends and associates where making much more. Finally, one of my friends offered to get me a job where he worked. I explored the company, interviewed, and went through the whole process. When I was told it was a sure thing at the new company, I informed the President and CEO of Company X that I would be leaving for the new company and that I had a couple people qualified to take over my old position, one of whom was already an employee, but did not work with computers in his job. I offered to train them to do my job before I left.
The CEO had to make a decision at that point. He had a computer professional on staff whom he was paying less than he was apparently worth (since someone else was willing to pay more). He decided he would match the salary offered by the new company. I was more than happy to retain my current position at that new salary (driving distance, my own personal office, etc were better at Company X anyway). My new salary was not a major drain on company resources (I maintain the accounting DB too, so I know). It was the owner's decision to make an offer to keep me. If he didn't trust me anymore or didn't like me anymore because I went looking elsewhere, why would he counter-offer to keep me?
People in positions like this in business aren't stupid (in regards to business). They know people go where the money is, and that if someone is offering 20% or more, the employee is likely to move. They would be stupid if they didn't.
I have worked another year and a half at that company with zero problems.
I'm actually leaving the company (again), to move to a company that is offering 20% more. However, this time I am not going to accept a counter-offer. This is because the new employer will be offering opportunities to learn things that are not possible in my current job.
It's a choice between two people. The "boss" can decide to make a counter offer. If he does, you can choose one of two job offers depending on which you prefer. If you have to worry about your boss thinking ill of you because he had to make a counter-offer and give you a big raise to keep you, then you are working for a childish unrealistic person anyway. And your boss must know that if you can get one job offer elsewhere, you can probably get more. The whole idea of counter-offering is to KEEP the employee. If he treats you like trash, you're going to be job-seeking again. I believe that 90% of businessmen know that having to counter-offer to retain valuable employees is just part of business. The other 10% should be avoided as employers. The concept of company "loyalty" is just a way to use psychological tools such as guilt to manage employee behavor. The only reason to employ the term loyalty in this context is to try to convince the employee not to make a pragmatic decision. In this economy, take the highest pay in the set of all jobs that you are willing and able to work.
I took the Counter-Offer a couple of years ago. It was one of the smartest things I have ever done. It upped my salary to a competitive level and it brought me more authority with my employer.
A Counter-Offer is good but there are a few things to remember. Never play the Counter-Offer card unless you are absolutely willing to leave, now, six months from now, a year from now... The people who make the offer now know that you were willing to leave and if they become unsatisfied with you in the future they will not hesitate to get rid of you.
Offering a Counter-Offer is generally a pretty bad business decision because it means that a company knows they were underpaying you. It also means everybody you work with who knows about the Counter-Offer now knows what the company is willing to do to keep someone. It leaves the company open to blackmail from its employees.
If I were you and I enjoyed my job I would take the Counter-Offer but I might even ask for more. Be prepared to leave if things don't turn out the way you like.
Beware the wood elf!!!
The company I went to that offered me 50% salary increase got me going from a very good company to a new startup, at that time I was ready to take the risk of being "screwed" in the worse case scenario. Job stability wasn't my main concern back then so I could afford "experimenting". What an experimentation it was, I got screwed big time, promises promises and after 6 months I've lost my job with some lawyers letter (the ceo there was a total freak and liar). After fighting to get my last week of pay and my overtime... anyways all this to say, this wasn't worth the 50% increase, the other place wasn't paying as much but I had a "name" and potential title to put on my resume. Worse, after I left and some other did the same, they re-ajusted their salary brackets and while it wasn't matching what I got, it was still good enough to consider the type of work and the stability for the little difference it gave.
:).
So basically, if you are looking for stability, and want to risk it in a startup that offers good salary so you they can start up properly with the good people, it's a risk, and depending on how much you are willing to risk and where you live, there are tools that you can use to protect yourself.
The other thing when you stay at a company that makes a counter-offer, some CEOs are dumbasses, especially in startup. They will take the fact that you looked elsewhere personnally "what, you think I am not treating you well? you think blablablabla? how dare you!", and they will always have that little irrationnal something caught between how professionnal you are and their judgment, some (very few) bosses understand this and respond in a good way, but most are very idiotic about it. That's one thing I like about some bigger companies, if you did a good job and leave because you got better pay, they reajust, and offer you to come back if it doesn't succeed, that way you'll have gained extra experience and if you get back chances are you'll be a more stable ressource and etc etc and they will rely on you more.
One thing you can do to be sure when you get a counteroffer, it shows that he really wants to keep you and you can ask more, like a one year contract so that way if shit breaks loose, you'll still get 1 year of salary for sure and he won't be able to fire you under normal circumstances. One thing I often saw is the CEO acts like if nothing happened and it's normal life going, he hires somebody with a different function but can overlap yours and ends up kicking you out. This is very common and "buisness is buisness" they'll say.
I also had a good experience going into another company with a bit higher salary, but it was people I already knew for a long time and all, so I guess this wouldn't count
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
I decided that I wasn't earning enough, so I handed in my notice. They immediately offered me a 4-digit pay rise, which I took. I didn't have another job to go to, but was confident that I could get one if I needed to. This was a few years ago, before the IT job market crash.
The "is it a good idea or not" question is to vague. It all depends on the specifics of the situation. Your relationship with your employer, the current job market, your standing in the tech community (reputation, experience, etc), the general culture of your company, how long you've been there, how long since your last raise, etc etc etc.
I've both accepted and rejected counter offers, and for the right reasons. It has worked out fine so far every time.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
Jack Welch (former GE CEO) implemented a 3-tiered rating system where the top 1/3 performers got big bonuses, the middle 1/3 got a token COLA, and the bottom 1/3 got fired. Well, didn't recieve any raise as an encouragement to do better or leave.
I don't think it's unreasonable to think that 25% (or more) of a large group doesn't even pull their own weight.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Oops. If his new salary is what he's worth, and it took a 50% increase to get there, then they were previously paying him 2/3 of what he's worth.
(If this looks confusing, use a hypothetical example. Original pay = $30,000; raise = 50% of $30,000 = $15,000; final pay = $45,000. $30,000 is 2/3 of $45,000.)
[grin] I hope you're not an accountant.
I would agree that a matching counter is a compliment, but not if it comes after a pay-cut. The pay cut means they do not respect you. The counter says they need you anyway. At least, that's how I'd feel about it.
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
Which is why he should turn down the counteroffer: to send a message that "the rate they must pay me to retain my services" is "what I'm worth". They lowballed him (in more than one sense of the word), so let them suffer.
How is it possible for someone to be lowballed? They offer you money for work and you accept. If you ask for a raise and they refuse, then leaving makes sense. But if they agree, whats the problem!?!
If the price of wheat goes up, do you start growing rice to spite the market for low-balling you? If a customer offers to pay the higher price for your now more expensive grain, do you refuse to spite them?
No!
In my experience, offers and counter offers are the only way that large pay increases ever happen. If you refuse to extend a current job where you are happy, to take a new position where you may not be happy for less money, then you are dumb.
Ask for a raise first, and explain that you believe you are worth more than they are paying you. If you want to stay, explain that as well. Don't let on that you've had another offer; just tell them that you're certain you could earn better pay elsewhere, and that you'd be wrong not to accept the increase.
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
Is it wrong to accept an employment counter-offer?
No, it is not wrong, do what is best for YOU. They don't employ you out of good wishes, they do it because you have skills/knowledge/experience they NEED. If not you wouldn't be working for them in the first place.
However remember you almost certainly have a contract with the new employer or agent, even if only verbal. You are never likely to be able to use them again.
The linked 10 reasons are all b******t.
I have to agree, these reasons are from a job site it's in their interests for you to change positions and feed the jobs merry go round.
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Where unhappy, past tense, your manager may be a miffed when you first announce, and have personalised feels about it, however it is almost certainly they who have driven the counter offer.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not. When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
If anything you've probably gained some respect. They are less likely to take you for granted in the future.
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
If that is what motivates you, fair does.
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Perhaps but unlikely; if they try you can always leave and you are better off you've gained six months of extra money.
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Unlikely, it is actually more expensive to recruit somebody and get them upto speed and there is also more demand than supply, particularly in our sector,
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
This seems to be an argument in favour of not MAKING a counter offer rather than in favour of not accepting one. Worse case scenario, you leave for yet another pay increase, after six months.
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
In my first job we had a guy that used a similar technique, we had annual salary reviews and six months later he would go and get a new job offer and use it to negotiate a counter offer thereby gaining two salary reviews a year. He was mostly respected for his b*lls, by the other employees, until our employer called his bluff and he left, though it took them 3-4 years to catch on.
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth
I have to agree, this is the only valid reason in this list (probably why it was left until last) 'why did they wait to make the counter offer?' However this is obvious, basic supply/demand economics, because they thought they though they COULD. I would say do they make a habit of it ? or was there a specific issue such as temporary tight budgets ?
Always remember employers need employees as much as employees need employers.
The big question I have is, if they can pay him 50% more now, why give him a pay cut in the first place.
I don't know anything about this company or it's financial status but it sounds to me like they were just trying to squeeze more work for less money out of thier employees.
"For a successful technology, honesty must take precedence over public relations for nature cannot be fooled." -Feynman
While skimming through, I noticed quite a few people have mentioned that they have taken more than one counter-offer and been satisfied with it.
The question I have is this:
Was the counter-offer really worth it if it turns out that you did in fact leave the company shortly there-after?
I personally did not consider the only counter-offer I ever received. I did this because I was looking forward to the new job.
All I wanted was a rock to wind a piece of string around, and I ended up with the biggest ball of twine in Minnesota
I started my career in 80's when corporate culture are valued, thanks to Ford who started it all out - company as a family and all as one. We have common focus and the company's vision really means a lot to us.
.......consultant.
Nowaday? Blah! Your company treated you as 'resources'(when you can be used) or 'headcount'(in time of downsizing); the vision/mission/values are well-written but the real meaning behind them is 'profit'; your contribution is not important when it's not directly contributed to profit; downsizing would increase stock values so the hell with morale; they paid you just enough to keep you, while your company tries their best to get the most out of their customers; the word loyality means nothing to your managers, but it's still being used when you are asked to accept unfavourable offers; when you aren't work overtime you are not competitive enough; 'insubordinate' in your review refers to anything you did/acted/said that didn't suit your bosses; you could hardly find an employee contract that does not include statements that fuck you up and over...
and the sadiest thing of all, is that most people read above paragraph will respond with 'so what? that's normal'.
So what's my opinion? Get the best you can get! Loot while you are there! They got the most out of their customers could give, it's obligatory to get the most out of your company. Don't be fooled by lies they learnt from management courses, like 'you are company's most valuable asset'(1/1459 of 15% of company's annual expenses), 'the work itself is a reward'(while I took the monetary counterpart), and 'you are at the top on the list of potential promotion'(scores sorted in accending order), etc.
Jump from one company to another so that you could get the most out of what you are worth. Eventually you'll like my friend and become a
-ee: "I have a job offer for a much higher salary."
-er thinks "We can't lose him right now."
-er: "We're prepared to match that salary if you stay with us."
-ee: "Okay then, I'll stay."
-er thinks "Whew! That bought us some time, but this guy is just after money, so no doubt he'll be squeezing us for more later. I'd better start looking for his replacement now."
Being willing to jump ship for a better offer is not an impressive show of loyalty. Remember that employers ideally want idiot-savants who are brilliant at their work, but neither know their value nor seek their own best interests. They don't want people who are primarily influenced by money, they want people who are easily influenced by "good management" (i.e. manipulation and security/benefit shell games).
The counter offer is a slap in your face and will _certainly_ be used against you at a later date.
If they are suddenly willing to pay you what you are worth have them pay you retroactively as well.
In any event go to your new job -- setting up your new desk will be fun.
This
It was 8 years ago, and companies were DESPERATE for anyone who knew how to turn a computer on.
My salary went from $18k to $40k that year. Although with the raise, I was also offered a new position, a promotion, so there were none of the shortcomings, like being the tall-blade when the lawnmower came.
I still have that job, and I'm making over $70k (plus stock options) today, and have survived three acquisitions (the company was acquired) and god knows how many layoffs.
In today's climate, I sure as hell wouldn't risk it. It's also a very different company. When I accepted the counter-offer, there were like 100 employees, and I was on a first name basis with the senior staff, including the CEO.
Now, there's a couple orders of magnitude more employees, I've never been to the company headquarters, and never met anyone above Director level. I can trust MY manager, but I don't trust HER manager, and I sure as hell don't trust the CEO. I hear he cheats at golf. Totally different culture, different set of risks. And this is really the main factor you should be looking at.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Two years later, I went quietly looking - no real opportunities for advancement, the work had gotten stale. I got a nice offer, and again they made counteroffer, though not quite as tempting. I moved on to what is now my current employer, and I'm happy.
Soon after I left, the robotics company had four rounds of layoffs. I really didn't expect it (and I'm told that it happened the day after a rah-rah company meeting talking about how good things were). Somehow I doubt I would have survived, and I'm glad I didn't take the counteroffer.
I'm not sure what the moral is. I've gone both ways and been pleased with the results. Either I'm easy to please or lucky or both.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Unless you're documenting things extensively to show that they're coming up with fantasies, they can put just about anything into your HR file that they think they can get away with. A non-termination contract will give them incentives to come up with stuff to get you fired or to drive you to quit when they have your replacement in house.
Strictly speaking, you should play counter-offer deals by ear and take/reject them accordingly.
I've been offered one counter offer that was a joke (it was 1/4 what the other place was offering...)- I didn't accept because of the subtle changes in the corporate culture and the sheer size of the other company's offer. The place I was working for did a layoff 7 months later. Had I accepted, knowing the corporate culture at that place and how it'd changed, I would have been on the short list for that one.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
It's amazing how they felt that my expressing misgivings about my position in the company invoked a nice counter offer and a simultaneous feeling that I was "arrogant", a "loose cannon", and "unmanageable".
Those are the best qualities to have - it just means that Management has recognized you are doing something smart. They like to be the only ones doing the screwing, you screw 'em back and you're "unmanageable". You know what I say? Good! I'd rather be "unmanageable" than some clueless putz that gets it up the ass every day.
I'm a 2000 man.
I see lots of poeple saying "take it". Well, what if the new company goes out of business in a few months, where'd you be then?
Given that you have two offers for the same money, it's obvious: analyze the situations not considering money. Add up the pros and cons and decide which is better. However, remember that you know little about the new company and a lot about your current one. Depending on your personality, you will either have tendencies to favor the new or old company.
One point that seems to be overlooked is that the people with a bad reputation for "chasing the money" are going after relatively small sums - 10%, maybe 15% at the most. While this isn't inconsequential, most of us would happily trade 10% of our salary for better benefits, a less stressful commute, etc.
But when you're in the 50% range, *nobody* will challenge you for putting the money first. (Well, I've known a few asshole bosses who would try to guilt you, but nobody else would give them any credence.) That's too much of a jump to ignore.
Unfortunately, the same thing applies to counteroffers. If your boss offers you a 10% counteroffer, it's easy to justify as compensation for some thin raises during the past few years. If your boss offers you a 50% counteroffer, you'll soon be resentful because you'll realize how much you were underpaid before, your peers may become resentful, etc. It's a bad situation all around.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Your situation tells me:
1. Your employer was underpaying you. Either they did it knowingly or they had no clue what you're worth. Either is pretty bad.
2. You're not very "go-get-em" with respect to your salary. If you can allow your pay scale to fall that far behind, you're not very good at looking out for your own career. As an honest employer, I'd wonder whether an employee who doesn't stand up for him/herself can serve my best intrests. As a crooked employer I'd wonder what else I could pull over on you.
When I resign, I include a sentence like: "My decision is final and I am not interested in a counter offer." Don't accept your employer's counter.
You are worth what you negotiate, period... Companies don't pay your salary out of the good of their collective hearts. They pay the lowest price they can get away with -- just like you do with anything YOU buy. Sure, sometimes you'll pay a premium for better service etc. but so will your employer.
If you aren't getting paid enough, then it's nobody's fault but your own. It's not up to your employer to hold your hand and make sure that you're paid very well. That's your job.
So if you say you're leaving for better salary, why wouldn't you accept a higher offer from your own company? Do you really think they'll ditch you just because you did that? Well, if so, then don't take it I guess. In my experience, companies seldom do that (though it happens, of course). From what I've seen, they consider it part of the employment game. If they don't think you're worth the extra bucks, they'll pass.
Usually, however, I've found that it's better for everyone if you ask for the raise -first-. That is, negotiate it. In life (especially business/work) EVERYTHING is a negotiation. If you've got a job offer that is just as good as your current job, except with higher pay, then you have an -exceptionally- strong bargaining position. Use it to your advantage and get an amicable resolution. Negotiation doesn't have to be nasty and confrontational. At the end, if both sides get what they want, then everyone wins.
In any field, find the strangest thing and then explore it. -John Archibald Wheeler
Approaching this differently, here are my experiences when I had counteroffers and stayed.
.
Twice in my first consulting position (4.5 years), I had an opportunity to leave. The first was when a client made an offer, and the company counteroffered before I said anything. The second was when I considered leaving the consulting business, and they offered to transfer me to a different position.
The first time I did not initiate the job search. The second time I was fed up with a lot of issues, but the company understood and I had been a loyal employee for several years.
In short, if you've got a good relationship with the company and good reason to leave, a counteroffer may be an adjustment.
Now, on the flipside . .
If the company is paying you squat and now suddenly magically finds the money, be very, very suspicious. It doesn't sound like the relationship is solid, and they're only looking at the bottom line.
I've heard tell, as many have said here, that counteroffers are just an attempt to retain you until they can fire you. In many cases, it seems to be a fact.
Leave the job. Take the new one.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
It seems to me you were contacting a recruiter in the first place. Are you not happy with your current employement or is the reason for seeking a new job simply for more cash? If the answer truly is just money, then you should have asked your employer for a raise in the first place. Now that you've pursued other opportunities and threw it back in your employers face, you probably lost a little bit of respect at your current job. Sure, they can't afford to lose you right now so they need to counter the offer. Are you in the middle of the project right now? That would answer why you are a valuable asset at this time. Once they are done with that, you will be the first to go. If you aren't happy with your current employer, then you can't just demand money from them and say that is the only reason for staying. Further, the money is not the only thing keeping you there so why not just go to the next job anyway? If I was your current employer, I would view this as unprofessional and inconsiderate. If you really wanted to stay with your current employer, you should have been up front with them in the first place instead of going over their head. Everyone has the right to seek a better opportunity; however, using it to leverage your current position is simply wrong. Rule of thumb. Always be up front and honest but only tell the people who need to know.
http://www.askthevoid.com
Is this a job that entails skill ? Did it take you some period of on the job learning to become fully productive ? Did they pay you less while you were getting up to speed ? Did they know how good you'd be when they hired you.
It is utterly reasonable to make a counter offer and quite reasonable to accept. You're clearly marketable, you can take the risk of the company behaving like idiots.
They wouldn't make the offer unless the meant it. Sure they SHOULD have spotted how valuable you were and paid up at your last review, but clearly YOU didn't know what you were worth either, or you did but you didn't make the case.
If there are reasons to stay at the job besides the money, I'd take it and stay. There's no shame, and your boss will ask you not to mention the counter offer. YOU SHOULD AGREE TO THIS.
Be professional, your company IS being professional.
sjf
>> a recruiter contacted me with a very nice potential position - I interviewed and received an offer with a 50% increase in pay
Ummm... just to be safe, you maybe oughta pinch yourself and make sure you haven't time warped to 1999 or something.
Who said the company was broke? They obviously could pony up the cash when they needed to.
I've stayed because of counters, but I never got the raise - the division (of GTE) was closed a month later. They gave me a "bonus" initially because they said the raise would take a while to process.
Obviously, the higher-ups knew what was going on. They wanted to keep the development team together to try to sell the software.
Hanging around is a bad idea - jealousy, bad feelings, etc.
Instead of telling your boss that you have a job offer from another company that is better for you than you current job, instead ask for a raise (if this is what you want most) or if you think your boss will change the work environment to suit your needs then ask for that.
Exactly! I know plenty of people who have taken counter offers with no negative side effects. There are some commonalities though. All of these people were fairly critical to the projects at the time, were all excellent workers in general and they were all getting paid less than they were worth to begin with. They also weren't looking for huge salary jumps, but matching offers. If you enjoy your work and honestly don't want to leave except to get a higher salary (*Especially* after a pay cut) then take the counter offer. If you are fair with your employers, and you don't lord it over your co-workers who might not have the same opportunity, then it shouldn't be too much of a big issue. All these people who got canned after accepting a counter should have expected it based on the management style they worked under, or they likely thought too highly of themselves and either demanded too much or didn't put in the same effort once the decision was made.
bkr
"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
No you have not; you've made your employer aware that he's not paying you enough and this has nothing to do with loyalty. If your loyalty is in question, this is not a consequence of the offer but of the stupidity of you employer.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
See #1. Also: if your employer made you a counteroffer, you're at least worth something so maybe your chances at promotion time are even higher:)
When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Nothing wrong with that; when times get tough, there's less work available for you so your value on the jobmarket gets lower so it's perfectly normal to get a cutback. Your chance to get a cutback at another employer is about just as high.
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
Accepting a counteroffer means you actually like your job but get payed more. How can that possibly be a blow to your personal pride?!
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Maybe it was. Is that so bad? Getting a raise earlier doesn't implicate that you won't get another raise soon.
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
And they will get what they pay for so when they can do with someone cheaper, you're probably not the right man for the job anyway. And if you're not the right person, just don't accept the counteroffer
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
So? There are other ways to make it clear to your employer that you're worth more than he's paying for.
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
So...where are those statistics?
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
If your co-workers are such assholes, maybe you shouldn't accept the counteroffer and go work somewhere else, but this has nothing to do with the counteroffer.
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
A company that doesn't know that well what you're worth. That's not a good thing, but it's not reason not to accept a counteroffer.
Conclusion: the 3 reasons for not accepting a counteroffer are: 1. Your boss is an asshole, 2. Your collegues are assholes or 3. You're not the right man for the job (or just don't like the job). Oh and maybe you'd also noticed these 10 reasons where on a site called `jobtechsearch'. Their sole goal is to get you a new job so counteroffers are a bad thing for them:)
0x or or snor perron?!
In the ideal world, where professionalism is practiced, this isn't personal, it's just business . That being the case, you make your decision based on what's best for you financially and professionally and take the offer you want. Professional people understand that, as they would do the same in your position, and deal with it accordingly.
Unfortunately, we don't live in the ideal world, there is no such thing a professionalism in modern business and people WILL take it personal. Because of that, you HAVE to treat the situation as a personal relationship and not a business relationship. Yes this is sad but, unfortunately, a fact of life. What you have done is equivalent to going to your significant other and stated, I've been seeing someone else and I would like to end our relationship. At that point, there is no turning back. Oh, the other will beg you to stay, say that things will change and ask you to try to work it out and be one of those rare couples that use this as a way to make your relationship stronger. However, while you think it's all behind you, there will be hidden resentment, hurt feelings, feelings of insecurity and sometime down the line YOUR the one who is left as they have gone out and started looking for YOUR replacement.
As I said, while this may be a very sad and a very cynical commentary, it's simply human nature and a fact of life. Take the new job and remind yourself of the reasons you left in the first place. I'm sure that if you looked deep enough you'd discover that money wasn't the ONLY reason you wanted to leave. Even if the new job doesn't work out, you'll be better off in the long run.
--I don't mind the school of hard knocks, it's those darned refresher courses I hate. =)
1. You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Possibly true. But in a company run by grown-ups, you're supposed to let management know that you're unhappy. You are not supposed to whine about it, but you can state, in a reasonable way, that you are dissatisfied. That's what you do when you ask for a raise. And only foolish, childish managers will be shocked (Shocked!) to learn that some employees don't love the company. Of course, not everybody's a grown up.
2. When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
See above. And, they will also remember who was good enough to receive an offer of a fifty percent raise, and who was considered valuable enough to be retained with a similar raise.
3. When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Perhaps. There are no guarantees in life.
4. Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
This is ridiculous. We are bought with our salaries. It is how the system works, and it's a reasonable and honorable exchange: work for pay. If you do something unethical because you've been offered lots of money, that's different. Volunteering is great if you are independently wealthy. Most are not. I've allowed myself to be bought away from the life of leisure I prefer: The company told me that if I write programs they'll give me money.
5. Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Could be. One of the wage and salary guidelines most companies follow is to get and retain the people they need for the least amount of money. That's why you negotiate salaries and push a bit.
6. Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Doubtful. If I were going to do that I would probably just let the person take the new job and then start looking. If the position was so vital that I couldn't do that, I would consider making a counter-offer to retain somebody who already knew the company and the job.
7. The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
True in some cases. But in the post we're discussing, the only difference between the jobs was money.
8. Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
As others have noted, I want to know the details on these statistics.
9. Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Word does not always get out. And I personally still respect one of our sysadmins who stayed with our company on the basis of a counter offer. He's been here for five years since then, and everything is fine. I'm not an idiot and neither are my co-workers. The guy is good, he has a family to feed and parents to take care of, another company offered him money, and our company offered more to keep him. They made a good move. Management and staff knew why he was going to leave, because they also use money to purchase goods and services for themselves and their families.
10. What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
A normal one. Not that the person who posted this couldn't have asked for more money sooner, obviously, but he didn't. It does not sound as though he was asking and asking and then finally, after many months of trying to get what he was worth, had to threaten to leave. He didn't know what he was worth to the company and only found out when he tried to leave.
Management may feel strong-armed in this situation, and they may resent him. Maybe it is better to leave. Also, variety and change are good. But that top ten list was weak.
Several years before I had made it known I was considering a move, when I was only working part-time at my first programming job. I was called to the director's office a few days later and offered more hours at a 100% pay increase to stay on for 8 months, with the possibility of a full-time position at the end of the period.
I'd advise testing the waters when you have an offer, before revealing that you have one. i.e. drop hints that some other path looks interesting. Use caution, never let the door behind you close until after you're through the next one.
Lastly, never, _never_, __NEVER__ burn bridges. It may feel good at the time to tell someone what you think of them or how you feel about a certain department, but it's a risk, which I've seen blow up on people in the past. Be gracious, or at the very least, polite on your way out. You never know, particularly in some circles, who you may see again some day.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
You might want to look into the stability of companies as a factor before taking any decision. Most (software) companies consider joining date as one of the criteria while doing a layoff. In the worst case, if a layoff happens at both companies, you have more chances of suriving the layoff at the old company rather than the new company
I work in constant fear that I'll be replaced by someone cheaper. That is why I refuse to work for more than minimum wage.
While this will likely make you feel good because you're causing trouble for your employee, think about this in two ways:
First, you are paying less than market for this employee who took a counter-offer. What does that say about your company? What if he tells people he knows not to work for you and why? It goes both ways, especially with the Internet making it easier to communicate amongst the "little" people. In fact, I (mere minutes ago) gave a coworker my opinion of a local company his son was thinking of working for. The info for that company went straight to the trash can.
Second, what kind of legal exposure have you created for yourself? While it is a factually correct statement you might find yourself on the wrong end of a very expensive lawsuit. My understanding is that the best way to address questions from an employee's prospective employer is to simply say, "Yes I would hire this person again," or "No, I would not hire this person again."
Again, be careful. Your vengeful attitude could backfire, especially as your company needs to maintain a respectable appearance while the employee can employ guerilla tactics as long as they are factually correct. (ie companysucks.com type things)
Here is the deal. Take the offer contingient upon a minimum fixed term contract (1 year, six months, 3 mo. whatever) guarantee. If they fire you before the guarentee is up, then you get the rest of the contract money anyway. Put in a clause for Contract Renewal, loyalty rewards etc. Ask for everything in writting.
The biggest mistakes most people make is not getting the terms agreed beforehand, and not asking for what they really want. If you get what you want, make sure the employer know that they too can get something out of the deal (loyalty and other intagables).
But whatever you do (either way) don't take the job without a nice contract on paper.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
My recommendation is this: you know your co workers and your superiors, and you know the company. Therefore, you are in a position to know whether you're a valued employee that they really want to keep, or whether you're just a warm body on a project that they'd be inconvenienced to lose right at the moment. If it's the former, they're sincere; if it's the latter, you might find yourself made redundant as soon as the pressure is off. Sometimes even the best companies get complacent and it takes a drastic step such as threatening to quit, to get your needs met. So you should base your judgment on that.
Back in 1996 I had a nice job with a major defense contractor, but working on non-defense related projects. It was fun and interesting but didn't pay very well, and after two years being there I wanted a pay raise. I got along very well with the bosses, and I was a key player on several current and upcoming projects. I had gotten a 10% raise the year before -- exceptional for that kind of company -- and knew that I'd probably get the same this time, but that really wasn't going to be what I wanted.
So I went and interviewed with another, smaller company that was in the same industry. I had no problem landing a position for about 30% more than my current salary. I really had no intention at all of staying with the defense contractor, since I had no real expectation that they'd even want to try and match it. I talked to my immediate boss about it, because I liked her and didn't want to screw her project over. To my surprise, a couple of days later her boss called me in and said they'd match the offer.
I liked the people I worked with and didn't have any fears for my future there; much like the poster of this story, my only real beef was with my salary. I stayed, and everything went well - I was even more surprised when, a month later during my two-year evaluation, I was given a raise on top of the 30% I'd stayed there for.
I eventually left that company a few years later, because the defense contractor was selling off the unit I worked for and staying with them would have required relocating across the country, but I'm glad that I stayed as long as I did. Certainly, the accepting the counter-offer thing worked out very well in my case.
Sure they're biased, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate all of their points. Hey, the American Dairy Council has an obvious vested interest in milk sales, but that doesn't necessarily mean:
that milk isn't a good supply of calcium
that milk doesn't go well with cookies
that the supermodel on the billboard doesn't look totally smokin' hot with white, creamy liquid on her upper lip
I take drugs seriously.
Definitely do not accept, I did this and was laid
Umm... Exactly why shouldn't I do this, again?
If it's a large company, you could easily get caught in the grip of some corporate HR policy that ties your immediate management's hands. If that's your case, AND you have spoken to your boss about your unhappiness several times before, it becomes an "look what evil HR made us do" situation.
I took one counteroffer and did not regret it. There was another counteroffer (evil HR scenario) that I did not take and I did not regret it. You weigh the risks and make the best business decision for you.
Either way you take risks (old company lays you off for 'lack of loyalty', new company lays you off for 'lack of seniority', and so on). Make it a business decision and take the best return on your (time) investment while minimizing risks.
If you have the offer, what you can do is negotiate with your employer for a higher salary without telling them that you actually have another offer. That will give you a more reliable gauge of how much you are actually worth to them in the long term. If they are not meeting your expectations accept the other job and resign a few days later (it is both in bad taste and counterproductive to throw your resignation at them right after failed negotiations for a higher salary). If they make a counter-offer at that point, you then know that it's because of their short-term panic, not because you are worth it to them.
I was making something like $10,000/year. I walked into my employer's office one day and said "Ok, I'm out of High School, I'm not going to college, I need to make more money!". And he said I had to earn it. So I do the exact same thing I've always done and find my salary was increased to about $25,000/year.
My colleagues were making far more, so I decided to hunt for another job. A company offered me $45,000/year to start, a raise to $60,000/year in 6 months if I proved valuable. I delivered my resignation to my boss.
Boss counter-offers with $60,000/year, plus other perks (tax breaks for him). I ended up staying.
100+% increase in pay that only came once I gave my 2 weeks. To say that I felt used was an understatement, especially since I had requested a raise earlier and he gave me this whole story about how he'd love to pay me more but I had to earn it.
One year later I ended up quitting for real and started a computer consulting firm of my own. I'm a few months from hiring an employee to help me, and I'm sure my past experience will be a valuable lesson on how not to treat employees.
I ask this question because frankly I'm not convinced about the correct answer, but is it really better to have business relationships that are not personal? It seems that this is one thing that distinguishes american business from the vast majority of the rest of the world. That may be why we are by far the richest and most powerful country in the world, but I wonder at what price?
How many corporations do layoffs in the interests of boosting stock value? That is the ultimate in tossing away personal relationships in the interest of the business. Surely sometimes a business has to cut staff to save the business but there are countless times where a profitable company cuts employees in the interests of increasing shareholder value.
It just seems to me that this immense detachment from personal relationships in business might really be doing us a lot of harm in the long run.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
The investment banking and consulting analogy probably isn't a good one. In these cases, other companies really want your contacts. What's seen as "recruiting" is actually more like a merger or an acquisition.
Other times, recruitment is nothing but a crippling strike designed to strip a competitor of its key people. In this case, you have to be careful. Once they've achieved their goal, you may be out on the street.
No regrets. My situation was slightly different in the fact that it was very near review time so I had to wait until the review to see what they would come back with.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
There is serious debate going on about the approriateness of milk as calcium source. There are three major questions, the first is that milk doesn't have the same balance of minerals as our bodies need, and therefore someone using milk to ensure that they have enough calcium in their diet may end up being deficent in other minerals, it's much better to eat a well balanced diet which gives all the minerals from a variety of sources. The second question is how available is the calcium in milk anyway. With the majority of adults being lactose intollerant, many people find it difficult or impossible to drink enough milk to make a significant difference to their diet. The third is of course the high percentage of fat, sodium and potassium, all of which tend to be already in our diets at too high a level.
I used to work at a major defense contractor.
:-P). I looked at the situation... I had a hell of a lot of seniority (I'd worked there for 17 years), but on the other hand, I was pushing 40, and I had a "now or never" feeling. I gave them my regrets, explained that it had nothing to do with the company, and that while the counter was generous, I really felt that it was just time to leave. No hard feelings, I was told that if I ever wanted to come back, and there was an opening, no problem. Privately, my direct boss told me that even if there wasn't an opening, he'd make one if I needed one. That security blanket was a big help, since I was going to a small start-up.
After two or three layoff rounds, I put my resume out on the web... didn't think too much about it, because I was happy where I was. About 6 months later, I get a call from a recruiter. I get an offer that's about a 20%.
My then-current employer offered to match (sans options, but I wasn't counting on those
I had a friend who accepted there a counter 6 years ago, and he's still there.
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
http://www.hotsalesjobs.com/candidate/counter.htm
Overall it looks like to me, by the stats, you're best off leaving.
If you have already accepted the job from your new employers, from an ethics stand-point I don't see what choice you have but to leave. It sounds to me like your company is fairly lousy anyway. Cutting your pay because of a "dot com bust" and then when you leave "oh you're worth more than we thought."
If they had to cut pay, how much longer will they stay in business anyway?
And as other posters have mentioned, if you leaving will tend to help your career. You will be in a new environment out side of your norm which will help you achieve new heights. Of course, if you want the norm and the status quo, and don't think your company has been abusing you, you should consider the counter-offer carefully
it's much better to eat a well balanced diet
That's why I was sure to mention cookies as well.
I take drugs seriously.
You should not have to quit to get your salary adjusted to current levels, and most companies recognize this. On the other hand they don't usually go out of their way to give you an adjustment. The company I worked for was fairly progressive, and only one of my pay adjustments happened without much effort on my part (good manager I think). Although I'm focusing on pay, there are a lot of other considerations that you should not forget too.
The rest of the times it took a lot of effort. You can start off playing the game by the rules. Make sure your actual job duties match your formal description, since that is how they determine the salary range. Expect to be doing the actual work of the next level for a year or so before it get recognized. Find out the pay range for that level and where you fit in percentage-wise. Obviously, the lower your salary in the range, the more room you have to get an adjustment (also obviously this only applies to large organized companies, my current start-up does not have any of this formalized).
What I often found was that even given a salary in the low range, it was hard to get adjustments. They might appreciate what you are doing, but that was not enough reason. This is where job searching and counter-offers come in. Of the three times I went down this course, twice I had offers in hand, and once I let them know I was searching and my new salary looked to be $xxx more than I was making. I should note I was serious about the job hunting, but I was open to counter-offers that addressed my needs and wants.
Your manager might not like this technique, but will normally be on your side when they consider the pain of replacing you. If your manager (or someone in the chain of command) is not on your side, just go with the new job!
The biggest key to avoiding repercussions is to make sure you don't rub anybodies face in it. Don't brag about it to your co-workers, and don't make this a yearly practice. Try to have some solid figures (this is where a job offer helps, can't get much more solid than that), and get your superiors on your side. That is the way to work for a large company for a lengthy period of time without being underpaid.
It all depends on the company you're with, and the relationship you have with them. The "reasons" on About.com are very generic and don't apply to a lot of situations.
First of all, if you weren't actively seeking new employment, but were solicited for the job, then you may want to stay with your current employer.
If you had previously asked for a raise and were refused, you probably want to leave.
If the employer realizes at: A) You didn't weren't actively seeking other jobs and B) They know that money was your only reason for considering it, then you have good reason to stay.
This all depends on your relationship with your employer, though. My relationship with my last few employers has been very close and personal, and the money difference would have to be pretty high to have gotten me to leave (this isn't why I left any of them, by the way).
My general opinion is that enjoying your job should come before the money. It's easy to find a job that pays well. It's hard to find a job you really enjoy. But that's just my opinion.
There is no right or wrong answer to this question. Every employer acts differently when placed in a situation where someone that works for them is about to walk out. I say if you are happy with the job, the company is secure, you get along with your bosses, and they are offering more money then I would take it as long as my employer and I had a really good relationship up to this point. Most companies are not out to screw people. Someone on here asked why they hadn't offered them more money before. Well, I think the best answer is that companies don't often review what an employee is worth to them until they have to. Most of them hire people in at market value and then have a set compensation schedule where they get reviewed once a year with a small raise. Most don't pay attention to the job market until it's time to hire or they need to keep someone on that threatens to leave. I bet a lot of people in the tech industry are being overpaid right now in relation to what someone with their same skills is getting on the job market. I know I am and I'm keeping my mouth shut about it. Remember, no one owes you anything in this world.
I have taken counter offers in the past. I've also been given counter offers and turned them down because I felt that I knew the employer well enough that if I stayed my name would be mud and I would never be considered for promotion. Do what your gut tells you and remember that it's only a job.
Bull. I suppose companies cancel layoffs because they value loyalty. In fact, accepting the counter shows you are loyal because you are staying with the company.
But I never accept counters. If I leave, it is rarely over money. More money won't fix the problems in a bad situation.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
I am offering up a rebuttal to the don't accept the counter-offer article.
"You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question."
Any employer expecting loyalty from employees is an idiot, and any employee with corporate loyalty is an idiot. How many companies are loyal to the tens-of-thousands of people laid off every year in the US?
"When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not."
Certainly. The employer will remember the losers without the courage and initiative to make clear their wants and needs, as compared to the strong-willed people who are not afraid to get what they want. Who would YOU want to promote in the cutthroat business world?
"When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you."
So? Are you really less likely to end up on the chopping block anyway?
"Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought."
Companies are in business to make money. You go to work to make money. "FUCK PRIDE."
"Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?"
If you get screwed on the next raise, just walk away then. You will just get bigger offers the next time you leave.
"Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price."
If the company wanted to do that, would the counter-offer really even be made?
"The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer."
Not likely. Employers know who stays and why. If you make it known that cash is your motivation, they will know better than to try and keep screwing you.
"Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high."
Statistics? Who doesn't know the joke about the statistican's answer to 2+2=x?
"Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance."
Or you might gain respect for having the balls to show some initiative. If your peers don't accept you over something like this, fuck them. Just remember to backstab them after your initiative gets you into management.
"What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?"
Most of the companies on earth.
When I was in a similar position, I choose not to accept the counter-offer and left for my current employer (now 4 years later...)
As with just about anything, your mileage will vary.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
That list of reasons is bogus. It is written to favor employers, and pretty much all of the reasons can be turned around. More on that below, but, first, I'll discuss two components of the decision: ethics/etiquette and pragmatics.
I wouldn't advise seeking other jobs for the purpose of increasing your bargaining power. It may be ethical to your current employer, but it isn't nice. And it isn't ethical to the recruiters, who put in work (some of them, anyway) in the hope of getting paid. (You could maybe fix that by finding a recruiter who will work for you in exchange for payment from you instead of from employers.) However, these don't apply in your case, since the recruiter approached you unsolicited. If you do take the counter-offer, you might want to thank the recruiter by referring them to anybody you know who is interested in new opportunities, or vice-versa, or maybe even by offering them a fair payment.
As for pragmatics, it depends on your situation. If you are just in a situation where the employer needed you, but you could be replaced, then it might be better to go to the new job. But if you are a star and are professional, you could remain where you are with increased respect and power. Push came to shove, and the employer backed down, so you know where you stand. The decision between these two is up to your evaluation of the situation.
Back to the list. The list mentions loyalty several times. In most companies, there should be no loyalty of employees to the company, because there is none in return. Only if the company has demonstrated it will stick with the employees in hard times or entered into a binding contract to do so should employees be willing to have any loyalty to the company. Remember, a company is a business, not a person. Do not give a company the considerations you give to a human being.
The list says your employer will know you are unhappy and your "loyalty" is in question. In other words, your employer will know you have requirements and evaluate your own self-interest, like any other strong, responsible business person. The list says your employer will remember who is "loyal" at promotion time. In other words, your employer knows they have to compensate you fairly; they cannot rely on you to complacently sit in a low-paying job like most employees.
The list says your employer will cut you when times are tough. But your employer's counter-offer proved they need you, they know it, and they are willing to pay for it. You don't cut needed employees who are worth the money; you cut the unperforming wastes of money. If things get really tight, you ask the stars about pay cuts, which should be in exchange for future consideration when things get better.
The list says accepting a counteroffer means you were bought. No, it means your services were bought. That is what employees do; they sell their services for money. You don't go to work for a company for fun. It is a business deal; there is supposed to be money exchanged.
The list asks where the money for your raise comes from. It comes from the value you provide. The wage guidelines can be adjusted for good performers. The list says your company will look for somebody cheaper. Really good employees are hard to find, and it takes time to bring new ones up to speed. Replacing any employee is expensive; replacing a good one is stupid, unless the money is out of line. But it can't be out of line if that is what the market is offering, and how could they hire somebody good cheaper if that is what the market is offering?
The list says the circumstances that made you look still exist. But that doesn't apply in your case; the circumstance of low salary is changed. The list says, without attribution, there is a "high" probability of leaving or being let go soon. What makes us think that isn't true anytime?
The list says your co-worker relationship will change. If word gets out, your co-workers will know you are a valuable employee. It is nice to be respected, and it gives you power.
The list asks what kind of company has to be threatened with resignation to get what your worth. Most kinds. What kind of company wants to pay money they don't have to? Companies give low increases because most employees stay put even though they could get more elsewhere. It is a business deal.
Not only can you drop out of a deal with a new employer, but they can drop out of a deal with you. No doubt apologizing profusely.
Until you get it in writing, it ain't real. Sometimes even then.
=brian
a story.
An American employee working in Mexico at the time was doing the excact same thing you describe to a, obviously, Mexican employee.
After explaining what was going on the Mexican employee said something to the effect of, "You know, you are prostituting yourself".
The response was "True, but we all prostitute ourselves...the good ones know when to change pimps!".
Funny, but true...you gotta know when to say "Fsck it" and move on.
There is a reason you started looking in the first place...so I suppose I fail to see why this is an issue.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
I think this is probablly off topic, but thought I would post it just for laughs. Chris Rock once mentioned this in one of his acts.
"Do you know what it means when they pay you minimum wage? It means that if I could pay you LESS I would. BUT it's against the law."
Two experiences from two different employers.
One, less than a year out of college I got an unsolicited offer from within 50 miles of home. Considering I was now 1500 miles from home, and considering they were offering a 20% raise, I considered it a nobrainer. But my current employer offered me a promotion and 30% raise for me to stay. In the end, I figured longevity at my first job would look better on my resume, and with some apprehension, stayed with my then-current employer. Right decision. 2 more promotions and five years later, I left on my own terms because I didn't like the new projects being handed to the group, and my not liking that wasn't going to change anything.
Then several years ago, I vented at my boss after being asked to give up an already-planned weekend vacation that considering the sacrifices being asked of me and considering the positions and salaries of those around me, I was underpaid. It was not an ultimatum, just a firm statement of opinion. I concluded (in person) that "while this isn't enough for me to go distribute my resume, on the day that I do do that, if you ask me when I first became disenchanted with my job, I will probably say today."
And they apologized, agreed, and offered me a small raise (about 3%) with the promise that this was above and beyond my salary review (due in a couple of months.) And they were good to their word.
There are three things that make me want to work somewhere: 1) The people I work with, 2) The things I am doing, and 3) What I get paid. On any given day, these can be in different order of importance. Whenever I feel any two of them are out of whack, I start looking for a new job. If only one is out of whack, I talk to my manager about it to see if something can be improved. So far, in almost all cases, it could. In those cases when it couldn't, I found a new job and entertained no counter offers, because the counters, I felt, didn't address ALL of my concerns.
Loyalty now is to people, not companies. If I respect my manager I'll try to work with him or her. If I respect my co-workers, I may actually stay because of them. But loyalty to a company is an (unfortunately) outdated concept, because companies are no longer loyal to employees.
And hey, guess what -- I'm not afraid of my managers reading this because I've already had this conversation with them.
I'm in HR in a High Tech company, and just wanted to give some perspective for those making sweeping generalizations about "well if you're worth more, why isn't your current company already paying you that?"
Reality: Because sometimes you're not
Sometimes when you get an offer from another company trying to hire you, they offer you X% more than you are getting (or X% more than current market value). Wow - these people must know that you're worth much more right?
Wrong - Don't let your ego make your career decisions.
You'll enter that new company, and when the time comes for salary reviews you'll be red circled. Your raises will be miniscule until you're in the right salary band/range again. You're only gaining a little in the short term, which doesn't mean much when you consider all the costs and inconveniences that may come with moving to your new job. (This could also happen if you force your company into paying you more than you are really worth because they need you for a specific project and have no choice - then you also have hard feelings to deal with).
Of course, your new employer could just be throwing money around. There was a company in our area that did this to lure employees from other area companies by trumping their old salaries (which were very fair). This kind of hiring is unsustainable (and possibly indicative of their business practices). They've now laid off more than half their staff.
If I can give you any advice at all, it is to TALK to your employer about where you are unhappy (money, job, boss, etc) BEFORE you get another offer and put them on the defensive with "or else" negotiations. You're much more likely to get things resolved in a realistic and amicable manner. We've done this many times, as occasionally we do make mistakes and overlook someone when they should have gotten a raise (or need a change in job, or have a poorly performing boss, etc).
If your employer really is being unfair, find a new job that offers you what you want with a fair salary (and don't look back).
If your offer sounds too good to be true, it most likely is.
(On the flip side, we've made initial offers to potential new employees who've gotten counter offers from their current employer, and then expect us to counter the counter offer. Not going to happen. As a rule, we have a policy to be honest and fair about our initial job offer. We offer the best we've got up front, and if that isn't good enough, too bad. We want people to choose to work here for reasons beyond an over inflated salary.)
First, a general note: Many companies are remarkably unaware of the going rates until departing key employees enlighten them. Hence counteroffers occur because you showed them the hard way that they miscalculated your market value before. If everyone is adults, that is probably all there is to it. If your boss isn't emotionally adult, don't miss an opportunity to leave...
* You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Loyalty??? How 1950's... It depends on the company culture. If they bothered with the counter-offer, either it isn't too big a problem, or else they really, really need you to stick around while they hunt for a replacement. Better understand your own company well enough to tell the difference.
I am assuming here that you repeatedly told your boss the salary was inadequate _before_ you started looking outside. If your outside jobhunting was a complete surprise, whether because you never asked for a raise or because the boss is an idiot whose forgotten all the times you showed him salary surveys, etc., then you'd better get out, because you have pissed off a powerful idiot...
* When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
You expected a promotion on top of that big pay raise?
* When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Or maybe if they needed you bad enough to make the counteroffer, you'll be the last one they lay off. But usually in a real crunch the question is not you, it's whether the work you are doing is still vital considering the product lines they are dumping.
* Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
If there's any chance your boss is as childish as this, by all means get out. If you are as childish as this, I hope it wasn't my company that made that offer...
* Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Whether you can expect continuing raises beyond the counteroffer is a question you must ask. However, in most companies wage and salary guidelines matter only as long as employees believe they are a reasonable excuse for not keeping salaries competitive. They'll tell you they can't give you a raise because of the guidelines, but it's just an excuse. If they really can't break the guidelines to hire and keep the people they really need, you should have been looking for a new job a long time ago, because this company is doomed to death by bureacracy.
* Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Maybe. If you work on a project by project basis, they might be just stringing you along to the end of the current project, but otherwise, if they thought they could replace you they'd have said goodbye already.
* The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
If you were looking for other work because of working conditions, don't even think about counteroffers. (Unless it's to promote you to CEO so you _can_ fix the problems.) But if it was just about pay raises, just make sure the counteroffer is big enough that you won't need another raise before the next merger/split/reorganization/corporate bankruptcy makes it irrelevant anyway.
* Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
Source? I can make up statistics too.
* Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Refer back to what I said about loyalty. Your office isnt like a Little League team, I hope
* What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
A typical one. That's partly because so many companies don't know what their employees are worth until they have to think about replacing them, but also it's in the fundamental nature of commercial negotiations. You are selling yourself. In any negotiated sale, a person who lets it be seen that he isn't willing to walk away is going to get screwed.
To go back to "loyalty": in this context, it's a trick to put you in the ready-to-be-screwed frame of mind.
There are generally two ways in which an employer looks at an employee...
1) As a commodity, a service that the business owns and can milk for any and all skills that the person has at whatever rate they feel like paying. In this case, pay is based on "get the most you can for the cheapest price." These are generally the bargain-basement companies that have nasty reputations in the industry, high turnover rates, etc. They often let people go without a counteroffer, knowing that they can replace this person with a newbie for $15,000 less per year. This type of company does not focus on training and rarely technology, and often thinks of its shareholders and profit margins first, prone to layoffs and a low stock price, no matter what "changes" are made to "better" the company.
2) As a business, another organization with skills and brains to help take the company to a new level. The company is hiring this organization (you) in order to increase productivity, efficiency, profit, growth, etc. The company respects the employee as a valuable part of a team, and the employee could certainly be called a "business partner." These companies usually give large raises and bonuses based on performance, leave doors open and inform staff of newly developing opportunities for partner growth. Their benefits are usually better because they are quite aware of how each employee is an integral member of the team that makes the company tick properly.
Those are the basic two kinds of employers. When being counter-offered, companies often can only go so high due to budgeting and pay scales. In the case of pay-scale limits, it is always appropriate for you, as an employee, to work with the employer to create a "new" position or title in order to be paid what the market (or your skills) say you are worth.
Often times, this is called a "variance request."
Today, I am actually meeting with my SVP (in 2 hours) to propose a variance request for my position. Not only am I underpaid per the market or in general, but I have taken on more duties that are not associated with my original job description. In this case, if the SVP does not want to or cannot provide me with ample compensation, I will propose a change of title/position. Many people feel that coworkers will be offended, e.g., but in reality, there is nothing wrong with keeping the new title and/or position a private matter, just as long as it is approved and on the company's books.
I view my employer as the type #1 above. Today, we will find out how much they are willing to transition to a type #2 company.
The SVP has been bantering about employee retention, so I'm going to test his true feelings on the matter.
Remember, though, sometimes when you go job shopping and then go in to tell your boss, they are counter-offering you because they had no idea that you were leaving, or they might have made a mistake in overlooking a superstar employee. A counter-offer is their last chance to keep someone that could truly be an asset to the company.
My $0.02, to be tested at 4pm CST today.
-RH
The 'offical' figure is 50 million Americans. However, this is non-evenly distributed, with non-northern European descendants it's 75% to 90% (details here). Around the world overall, it's 70% Of course it's not a binary condition, and different people will have more or less severe problems, so what level you call tolerance is going to be quite arbitary.
I have accepted a counteroffer twice with good results. However, both times it was the following situation: I had just recently been hired as a contractor and had only been working there for a month or less. I told my company about the other offer, and in both cases their response was to offer me a raise and also a permanent salaried position. Since either job was pretty much still an unknown quantity, I went for the counteroffer, and it worked out fine. But since I'd so recently been a jobseeker, they didn't know if I'd continued looking after they hired me or if the other offer was just a late result coming in from my previous search. So my "loyalty" was not a factor. This may have made it slightly less risky for them, and for me.
Assuming money is why you are leaving. If it isn't then just take the new job.
1) Ask for a raise. Specify why and how much. If they give it to you, stay
else
2) Find a new job
If you do this in the right order you never have to think to hard about the counter offer. They've made their opinion of you known and it's time to move on.
Back when I worked at the college I was attending, a postition opened in the art department - basically the "computer guy" for a bunch of macs and a few PCs. I was currently a working student, meaning I only made $6.50/hour and couldn't get benefits or tuition reimbursed, but I didn't need a car to get there, either. As soon as the position opened (the last guy was fired) I mentioned that I had a lot of mac experience and I basically started doing his job. Actually I did more than his job, since I was setting up several labs of G4's and new PCs in preparation for Y2K stuff.
I did my job well, accepted the low pay since it was great experience, and applied for the actual job. I was informally rejected because I was young (21) and the art department didn't want "some kid" running their system. So I politely told my boss and his boss that I'd have to start looking for work elsewhere, and they understood - after all, they knew I only made $6.50 an hour.
So, after emailing 10-15 companies a day, I started getting a few interviews. Finally one day I requested a half-day the next day for a job interview, and the school started considering me for the position (they still hadn't even started looking for applicants). Two days after the interview I was offered the position, and I told my current boss. They seemed genuinely interested in offering me the position (which would have been the same pay the other company already offered me), but since they couldn't actually offer it yet I told them I couldn't wait. And frankly, I didn't trust them if they were willing to discriminate by age (and ignore all that I had already done for the school) until I got an offer elsewhere.
As a result or that experience, I'll never trust a company that makes a counter-offer. I also believe in telling the boss you're not satisfied with your situation before you start looking elsewhere, and be as civil and diplomatic about it as possible. If the boss is reasonable then you'll get a good reference or a good raise. If not, then you probably don't want to work there anyway.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
You sound like a PETA mouthpiece to me.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
If the recruiter offered more money than the current job, and you took the newer higher-paying job, weren't you just bought anyway?
If a counteroffer was made, I'd then go back to the recruiter to see if they could do any better. It's always a good thing to have employers bidding against each other for you!
Personnally, the article contains some pretty weak point on why not to accept the counter-offer. My thoughts as they bear...
1) You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
If he were concerned about your loyalty, you probably wouldn't have a reason to be looking for another job. And what exactly is wrong with letting him know you aren't making enough money? Most employers don't care about you, expecting 2 weeks notice while they are more than willing to fire you on the spot. Loyalty only matters to those who care and most employers DON'T. Their loyalty to you only extends to how
well you do your job. Yeah, you're a capitalist pig now, a disloyal curr, but you were going to leave anyway, right? Whether your a boss or employee, it's all about money. make him some and you've bought his loyalty.
2) When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
Another non-issue. You obviously weren't getting enough to stay, so what raise was he going to offer you to buy your loyalty? If the past was any indication, not enough to keep you. See counter-point #1 on loyalty issues.
3) When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you
This is quite possibly true. But ONCE AGAIN, you were leaving anyway. And who say you can't still explore other options? Becoming valuble enough to him will also negate this option. I know several people who's employers would love to get rid of them, but dare not because of their special certs or qualifications make the company too much money. Again, loyalty is conditional on profit.
4) Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
How ignorant is the person who wrote this? No $#@! shit you were bought. You were "bought" the day you joined. The author of these assnine points was "bought". It's called "Fee for serices" no matter where you go. it's a fact of life the author doesn't seem to acept, even though he's probably ass-deep in "being bought". Yes, you were bought and there's no shame in it.
5) Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Didn't we already cover this? Whatever raise you may or may not have gotten was obviously NOT ENOUGH TO KEEP YOU. maybe you won't get the almighty raise when it comes, but I'd rather have the money in hand over that mythical raise I may or may not get. Besides, would that raise have equalled what you are now being offered? Probably not.
6) Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price
Yep, and don't EVER forget it. Problem with this logic is they are ALWAYS doing this. If you're good enough, this shouldn't be a problem, but on the flipside, why do you think you're getting paid what you are now? Because you are that employee who is willing to work for whatever the boss deems as "cheaper". Maybe he'll be looking, maybe he won't, but considering you're working under that sword everyday without the offer, it's a moot point. On the optimistic side; He didn't just let you go, now did he? You're evidentally valuable enough to keep around for more money.
7) The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
The circumstance in this case is money, or lack there of. If it's going to repeat itself in your current position, it will probably repeat itself anywhere you go. Money is like that. People don't like to give out anymore than they have to. Unless there is a drastic change in the way the competition (where your offer came from) does business, it's going to be an issue no matter where you go. Best I can say here is look at your perspective employers carefully here.
8) Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
Figures lie and liars figure. This may or may not happen, but I'll say it one more time for the entire class... You were leaving anyway. Again, take a close look at the amount of the counter-offer and the people you're working for. One can negate the other in either direction in this case.
9) Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Sigh. If you making more money than they affects their view of you, do you really want to associate with them to begin with. Your BOSS doesn't seem to have a problem with it. I guess the old addage applies; Put one crab in a bucket and he'll always get out. Put two in the same bucket and they'll never get out, pulling one another down in the process. If neither of those helped, try this one: They would love to make the same amount (and more) than you will. How is that wrong all of a sudden? If that isn't enough, who pays your bills? Medical expenses? You or them? Thought so.
And finally, the number Ten reason not to accept a counter offer...
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
Probably the same type you'll be jumping ship to if you don't accept the counter offer. Sorry to break it to you, that's 80-90% of the businesses worldwide. This guy must be living in a dream world not to accept a counter offer based on this... It's a rare business indeed that actuallt looks past the bottom line to their employees welfare.
In the end the best you can do is make a judgement call. Was your job intolerable? What are your bosses (and their bosses) history of ethics. Is the increase in pay enough to overlook either of those in the short term? If you see a departure even after the new paycheck, can you reasonably expect to find an equal or better paying job? What is the management of the other comapny like? etc... Whatever you do, don't use the linked ameture's guide in making your desision. Good luck.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
First of all, no matter how much you like your job, it is just a job. You sell a commodity, be it your expertise or labor, to your employer. If your commodity can be sold for more elsewhere, it is perfectly fair that they either pay more, or they don't get it. This isn't the middle ages, and people need to abandon this guilded wage slave mentality.
That having been said, all the advise you will hear amounts to shit until it is filtered through your situation. I checked the link, and I can argue with each one of those points. So here's the deal: If you made it clear to your employer that the only reason you considered leaving was the money issue, then they will *NOT* question your loyalty. However, it will always reflect on you. You will be expected to justify the pay raise with more productivity, and after you decline the other job offer your leverage is gone. Also, you may face some conflict from your fellow employees who are going to be jealous knowing you got a pay raise "just because you threatened to leave".
In all, you may as well accept the other job. In the future, never use the threat (even if you did'nt use it as a threat, it is still a threat) of leaving in order to justify a pay raise. You should instead approach your bosses and make a justification. Your output, combined with your loyalty, and your holistic participation in the companies welfare as demonstrated by your paycut alone should be enough to justify your pay increase. If they say no dice, then you accept the other job offer, give your employer two weeks notice, and move on.
The job marketplace should be as proactive as the economy, but we tend to get ourselves into the "wage slave mentality" that employers are only too happy to exploit. Instead of begging for handouts, employees should recognize the fair market value of their skills, and capitalize upon them whenever possible. In the past 20 years, corporations have abandoned the idea of loyalty, and no longer respect a person for being a "company man". Loyalty is a two way street, and if you can expect to get laid off because management fucked up and doesn't want to take a paycut, then management is going to have to accept a fluid and unreliable talent pool. That's a fair market.
This is something my uncle (who worked in the shipping industry, where I work in IT) warned me about. Never burn bridges, because you never know when you'll encounter someone again. He says he's had former employees be his boss, and vice versa after several job switches. One of the reasons I always try to be fair when I switch jobs, and with those I work with.
For example, my current employer is a customer of my old employer. (Old employer is an ISP, current employer has T1s through them) Since I left on such good terms with the people I used to work with, they tend to give me spectacular service when I call them because of a problem with a T1. It's good for them they didn't piss me off when I worked for them, since I'm now in a position where if I was bitter, I could switch vendors on them and cost them a customer who pays them several grand each month.
If you ever become unemployed or are unhappy and are looking for a new bok...Consider that leaving for the new position at another company is job hopping. Employers will instantly throw out a portfolio if they believe that you may be jumping around for more money too often.
Also, take into account that most people are not offered double counter-offers.
"Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early? "
50% is not a yearly raise. The company obviously needs him.
"Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought."
I don't think this applies to this case, and most of the reasons for that matter. Perhaps, a 10% increase; but definately not 50%.
Yes, mutual respect is usually lost at the point you're at. You've proved that you're willing to work someplace else, and they've admitted that they've been underpaying you and left you little choice.
Have you asked for a raise and not gotten it? That's a sure sign that you should leave. Not getting a raise when you've asked for one (and deserved it) and suddenly having mgmt come through when you announce that you're going to go work for Ben Franklin can be insulting.
But if you've never brought up the issue of salary before you started putting your resume out (heh) that would be the only reason to take the counter IMHO. Both you and mgmt can play that off without losing face
Another problem with taking the counter offer is that you've proven a certain amount of disloyalty. You will both lose a certain amount of that aforementioned mutual respect.
Also keep in mind that if you're comfortable in your current position, you've got something to lose in leaving it.
I never take the counter offer...it's too late at that point. If you haven't been paid what you and others think you're worth, you shouldn't have to waste your time adn others proving that this is what you're worth. If mgmt is that cut-throat/dense, you probably don't want to be there.
I am in the exact same position right now and I've basically told my employers (who I've worked for for 2.5 years) that I'm sorry, but you could have done more way back when. You chose this when you denied my request, and now you're going to have to spend more $$$ to replace me. No hard feelings.
...Time is the best teacher, unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Disloyalty?!? Gimme a break. Do you really think the employer is thinking, "He owes it to me to stay here"? (especially, if I understand correctly, you've only been there a "few months".)
There are lots of ways employers and employees can betray each other, in a way that might merit being called "disloyal". But shopping around for pay rates isn't one of them (regardless of which side is doing it). The work-for-pay deal is the whole basis of the relationship; it's the reason that loyalty is expected in the first place. Don't confuse cause and effect.
The employer already understands this, unless he's a complete dunderhead. And if the co-workers don't get it, then maybe they've forgotten why they've been getting up in the morning and coming to work.
Take the counter-offer.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Is this really what the "workplace" is about? Are these mature, intelligent businesspeople or a bunch of whining crybabies?
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy.
Oh, oh, horrors. Whatever shall we do? Someone is unhappy! Please.
From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Yes, of course. The EMPLOYEE will be questioned. The EMPLOYER of course, gets off without a single word. When prices go up, everyone has to pay them.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
Yes. The employer will remember who is working for half-price so they can be promoted to work for 40%.
When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Well, of course they will. Employers don't have to grow up and realize that their employees become MORE VALUABLE OVER TIME BECAUSE THEIR EXPERIENCE INCREASES. They are EXPECTED TO BE SNIVELING, UNGRATEFUL MORONS.
Of course they are EXPECTED to fire a competent employee who is in high demand and will likely be working for the competition in a matter of days because they are upset over having to pay them more. Waaaaaahhhhhh!
(stomach churns)
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
No. They were paid. Big difference.
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from?
From a happy pink castle in a faraway land, where ponies and flowers dance all day under a smiling sun.
All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed.
Yes. And those wage and salary guidelines were likely instituted by the PERSON WHO MADE THE JOB OFFER SINCE THEY ARE IN CHARGE OF THE COMPANY.
Is it your next raise early?
Who cares?
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Hope they are as well qualified. Maybe a guaranteed term would be a good add-on to the counter offer. Companies don't pay for someone they can easily replace.
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
The moon will orbit the Earth again this month. What's your point?
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
So what?
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Yes. So you should suffer for low pay so "Bob" in the next cubicle will like you and save you a donut. "OH NO! I'M NOT A TEAM PLAYER!!!"
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
I have a better question. What type of company do you work for if they pay you an exorbitant salary starting from day one so you don't need a raise?
Here's a hint: top... level... domain...
Whenever I see the "workplace" described this way, I am reminded of what a school must look like to a first-grader. Everything that happens in the "big people's office" is so mysterious and unknown to them. Everyone must follow the rules and not be unhappy. We must be acceptable to our peer group. "Be a team player now, let Bob borrow your stapler..."
It really is no wonder that corporate offices can't produce anything except more paperwork to justify their budgets. It's like kids asking for new crayons.
Pathetic.
I happened to notice that the "Ten Reasons for not accepting a Counteroffer" were posted by a head hunter (jobs@jobsontheweb.com). Hmm ... sounds suspect to me!!
[Maybe you should go for the counteroffer.]
I'm with the people who say you should ditch your current firm and go with the new one. You should be seeing red flags about the counter-offer. It means that you were underpaid all this time. Plus, there's nothing to say that your employer won't rescind the counter-offer. Once you've confirmed that you're staying, your boss could easily say, 'Well, you know we looked at the budget and a raise isn't in the cards at this time. Sorry.' Meanwhile, someone else got the job at the new firm. The job you *could've* had.
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
If you're current work environment, is a great place to be, then you should have a good enough relationship with your boss, that long before you get a better offer you've let him know that you'd like to improve your situation. If it's such a great place, they'll be more than happy to work to keep you happy.
Once you've formally let them know, that you've got another offer, and that you're actively leaving, you're dead meat. I guarantee that the next time they are forced to consider "reductions in staff" your name WILL be at the top of the list. Because they know that you're not committed to the company.
One of the admin's here had an offer to jump, and over the advice of both of us in IT, she accepted the counter offer here. Then within 2 months, she was laid off anyhow. And has been out of work for more than 6 months now.
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
A trooper is someone who does the work assigned to them, if there is a problem they'll try and solve it quickly before seeking managements help.
/.'ers that cannot are themselves whiners.
A whiner is someone who always finds something to complain about in every assignment, allocation, announcement, etc.
Well said. It's worth repeating.
I've never been a real titled manager but I knew the difference immediately.
As most people can. I'm willing to bet that most
The really hard part is when you've discovered a problem, carefully explained it and possible solutions, and they tell you there is no problem.
That is when we managers earn our often well-deserved reputation as idiots.
Of course it doesn't matter shit to you when you lay them off that they can't count on you anymore, because you have the upper hand, being the employee hustler. Uh huh...
Considered harmful.
And your asking /. for advice?! Come on! If you want an opinion that's not based on someone else's opinion, for the love of God don't do an AskSlashdot!
There's no $$$ in 'team'...
www..--..net - for incisive, w
Don't kid yourself; business relationships in the United States are extremely personal, at least until it is to the business' advantage to pretend that the relationship is NOT personal.
Most workers in the U.S. spend more time tending their business relationships than they do their personal relationships with their friends, their spouses, their children. Not content to simply perform the job for which their time has been leased, they will attempt to mold their (allegedly) off-work hours to suit their employers' whims: go to employer's 'events', favor hanging about with the people with whom they've already spent most of the day working whether or not those people would be the sort they'd normally care to associate, even old friendships gradually will wither and die if a competitor is involved. The worker will even try to mold his psyche to something more to the employer's liking by litening to motivational tapes and buying ghost-written biographies of heads of companies who either managed to inherit wealth or be in the right place to lead a parade they didn't necessarily start.
American business demands much more than just time-and-quality-work for money-and-benefits. Loyalty to the company is sometimes demanded to the point of near-worship. You bet it's personal. At least until the equation reverses and the employee expects a consideration that's not covered, pro or con, in the Policy manual. Then you will hear that "the age of the paternalistic American company is over", "only the interests of the shareholders can be considered", and a lot of other things that translate to: don't make it personal. And yet we get puzzled when some postal worker starts spraying away with a gun or a fast-food worker decides to cut open something other than a carton of fries after the morning Corporate Hymn.
Before the libertarians start piling on about how anti-American this screed sounds, it isn't. What I mean to point out is a wretched, hypocritical duality that is driving at least some people bonkers in the U.S.: you can't give someone only what you like of the old-style Japanese culture with its worker loyalty without the other part, which was "we hardly fire anybody and we'll take care of you". Business can't just take what it wants from Column A and ignore Column B and expect to maintain a sane workforce. There's a balance that's being ignored. Each individual business needs to decide how personal things are allowed to be, and it needs to be that personal both ways, and not just with expectations flowing in one direction.
I've had greatly rewarding business relationships of both kinds: ones with clearly defined, rigid limits and parameters for major multinationals and ones with more closely held local companies where the employess could go out and carouse with the owners. I've either been smart or lucky because I've negotiated certain hard limits and exclusions on my time in advance; my skill set is sufficiently in demand that I can do that. Some companies were frankly aghast that I held them to those pre-negotiated limits even though they'd advertised themselves as having had "family values" (isn't it funny how so many that yell "family" the loudest are those who will take you away from it the most?) I countered that perhaps I should start looking elsewhere if they were unhappy with what I'd negotiated; nobody's ever taken me up on that.
As far as accepting counter-offers goes: I agree with those who have said that the only loyalty in business is that flowing from employee to employer. Regarding the other direction, with few exceptions:
Trust is just a name on a bank.
You sound like a terrific guy to work for.
Its unfortunate that, as you noted, you are in the vast minority.
Just knowing that you could be canned for looking for a job really hurts the ee/er relationshop I think. What a shame. If everyone were just more open things would go a lot smoother.
This topic is of considerable interest to me right now. After almost 6 years of work for the same company, I find myself out of a job.
With no explanation given (and no advance notice), I was informed that "my services will no longer be needed", and that afternoon was my last paid day with them.
About a year ago, I did find another job that was paying better (and had a slightly better benefits package too), and took it. My work counter-offered (matching the salary, but no change in the benefits), and against the advice of the recruiter who found me the new job - I accepted the counter-offer.
Honestly, the main reason I accepted the counter-offer was because the new job I found was a contract position. Even though the economy was booming at the time, I wasn't confident it would still be easy to find my next job after the contract ran out.
Thinking about it now, perhaps that counter-offer is why I was ultimately let go? I'm really not sure. They were very careful to avoid giving me any kind of concrete reason for my dismissal. (In fact, I was promised by two managers that they'd give me a good recommendation.)
In any case, I think in my situation, it was probably pretty much a wash. I would have held a job with comparable pay for about the same length of time if I took the counter-offer, or if I took the new contract position.
If threatening to quit is the only way to make your company pay what they actually believe you are worth to them, then that's a sign that you are at the wrong company.
I guess it works this way - did you ask for a raise first before looking for other jobs? If you did, and they said no, but then after seeing someone else offer you more they changed their tune, then that's a bad sign. It's a sign that they *knew* you were worth more but weren't going to pay you what you were worth until that was the only way left to keep you.
On the other hand, if you did not ask for a raise first, then maybe your current employer isn't so evil after all. They might not have really realized what you were worth until you brought it up to them and they had to stop and think about it. After all, if two people engage in a contract and one is getting the shaft, he's the one with the onus to mention something about it. The person on the other end, not getting shafted, often doesn't even realize the deal is unfair.
When I left my first programming job for another I explicitly mentioned in my resignation letter, at the very top, not to bother giving me a counteroffer because money wasn't my motivation for leaving. (In fact the salary at the new place was almost exactly the same as the old. If anything it was a little less.) My reason for leaving was that the company was marrying itself to Microsoft, becoming a "partner" in the market they were in. I'd seen what happens to Microsoft's "partners". Also, the director in charge of new technologies, who ends up driving where the company was going to be going in the next few years, was either ignorant of how alternatives to MS work, or was not ignorant but was deliberately FUDding alternatives to MS. Either way I didn't want any part of it. For an example of this, there was, "We like Visual SourceSafe as the archiver we will move to. We can't trust CVS because we don't trust putting our code under a system nobody is financially responsible for, that's why so many years ago we picked RCS over SCCS for code control." (uhhh, isn't RCS even less commercial than SCCS? You've got it completely backward, man.) "For the new GUI on top of our unix backend we will have to use Windows, because a local gui system is more efficient. X terminals are such network bandwith hogs." (Note he's comparing something unix *can do*, but doesn't *have to do* vs something both unix and windows can do.) But the absolute worst was, "We'll put all our ISO9000 documents, the ones you are now required to access many times a day to get your job done, inside an MS Exchange message server even though it is just a big pile of files we could have put somewhere more open, like on an actual file server everyone can access regardless of OS."
Okay, so I'm waaay off topic now. But to get it back on topic, are you really sure money is the reason you were thinking of leaving? That's an important question to ask yourself before taking the counteroffer. Often times people aren't thinking just, "I'm not being paid enough". They are often thinking, 'I'm not being paid enough for *this*", where "*this*" is some sort of unbearable (to them) part of the job.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Then you are probably unemployed. Virtually every employer does exactly this. The basic core purpose of a human resources department is to recruit and retain good employees as cheaply as possible.
Things are priced at what the market will bear, not at what they are "worth".
450-500 hrs a year ain't too bad...that's only about ten hours a week. Any more than that and you're an idiot. And it better be a decent salary for 50 hrs of work a week. As far as counter offers go, if you weren't worth that in the first place, you have to ask yourself why you are now, and how long you will be.
Damnit, Jim, I'm an anarchist, not a F@#$!^& doctor!
Why should I get all the profit?
I recall seeing someone (the photo.net guy from MIT I think) talking about the then new idea of "associate" websites giving commissions for sales, such as what Amazon does. He noted that since it was often trivally simple for someone with such a web site to switch their system from amazon.com to chapters.com it would seem as though eventually the associates would get all of the profits as each bookstore enticed the associates to switch to them by offering a larger cut of the sales profits. 5% -> 6% -> 7%, etc.
Given a low enough barrier to switching to the competition, it would seem that such switches should result in getting a larger share of the pie.
I guess we just do not live in a world where everyone has complete knowledge of the options and always acts in the "rational" manner that ecconomics types like to say that they should.
To me the situation is the same as a bidding war between potential employers/contracts except you are already ensconced at one of them. If everything else at your current job is ok or better then there would be a strong argument to stay. If you have a project near and dear to your heart that you are in the midst of then definitely stay. Unless of course, your current employer begrudges the money. But usually in these situations they offer it because they know they need you and it is worth it to them to keep you.
I had this happen to me once. The offer was for a consulting gig and thus had a bit more risk as well as monetary opportunity. But the work itself did not enthuse me but most anything would have enthused me more than what the incumbent company was doing. I took the counter-offer though on the basis of security, being already known and respected, and promises to fix, esp. allow me to fix, a lot of the brokeness. The money came through, the promises did not so the next offer (a real dream offer at that) was enough to say goodbye.
It's an optimization problem. They have to balance the savings of paying you under market with the costs of finding and training your replacement if you decide that you've been so underpaid that you're not willing to consider counter-offers when you get an offer from another company. And you will, sooner or later.
But what complicates this decision is that a person who feels that they have been treated fairly will give you a chance to renegotiate - you can get the benefits of lower pay today and no recruitment/retraining costs in the future. If they feel that you've been abusive, they'll walk out the door without looking back and you'll incur those new expenses.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
the govt also has rules on what degrees/qualifications/years of experience are required to be eligible for those positions.
You see, I have no degrees/formal education beyond high school, (The curricula offered at colleges for CS was so remedial, that I essentially boycotted the whole "education" industry) So I was not eligible for any better position than I was at.
Private industry, assuming you can find a results oriented place, is much more flexible. They are willing to pay what they think it takes to keep you on board, moderated by how much youre worth to them.
Our management tells us the minimum about this. Where are you gettin your numbers regards what % of IBM employees get raises each year? Do you know the % for this year?
Lasers Controlled Games!