Slashdot Mirror
Web Thinkers Warn of Culture Clash
Passacaglia writes "The Washington Post is carrying an article describing some stimulating discussion from the Internet Society meeting this week, including comments from Vinton Cerf, Eric Schmidt, about the clash between freedom and commercial interests."
Instead Ask Naughty Natalie a Question
on the zdnet article here
French Polisher, anyone ?
All the fucking time!
Get it in you!
Dirty Hippies, get the fuck out of Calgary!
Oh well, back to dowloading pr0n...
Pr0n K1ng
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Good lord, what on earth would we do if a company like Time-Warner merged with a company like AOL? I can see why they're so worried. Such a company would have a controlling share of nearly all kinds of media.
Have you been stalked by Seth today?
The reason that the internet has become so accessible to the common man is because of big business. What does big business want in return? They want you look at their popups and they want to track you and they want you (in the end) to buy their products or services.
so, for the past week i've been on a strict sausage, bacon and wheat bread diet. i'm already starting to see a difference.
i've also taken up masturbating at work five or six times a day, but without bringing myself to orgasm. this way, when i get home to my videotaped collection of "nigella bites", i produce upwards of two tablespoons of jizz.
Read the cached version here
"But many participants said government agencies and businesses can't afford to wait on issues such as privacy, junk e-mail and copyright controls."
So, it's spam first and check the legislation later as usual...
coffee | nose > keyboard ©
You want freedom, we want to sell it to you.
yay for naked titties!
Titties are so damn fine
I like to suckle them all the time
Titties are the greatest stuff
So nice and soft and full of fluff
So touch a titty and you'll agree
Titties are for you and me!
Yay for naked titties!
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The medium which we affectionately refer to as "the internet" never had a culture of openness. It is a technocracy. Those who operate the communication lines say what goes over them. It has always been that way and those who have differing views of what the network should be used for have experienced how far from open that situation can be. The problem is not so much that "freedom of the press belongs to those who own the press", it is that very few own a press, metaphorically speaking.
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Well as long as I have linux, tcp/ip, and an ISP that supports tcp/ip I'm fine.
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One day while I was surfin' round the internet
I came upon I sight I know I won't forget
A naked man with anus stretched there was no doubt
That he had nearly turned his colon inside out!
And I said GO!
Go goatse go, go!
Go goatse go, go!
Go goatse go, go!
Goatse be good!
I know that when he started with his streching ways
That other people must have showed him much dismay
But he paid them no mind and kept on streching his ass
And now he is a hero to the public mass!
So I say GO!
Go goatse go, go!
Go goatse go, go!
Go goatse go, go!
Goatse be good!
So take a lesson all of you both near and far
Be like the man whose rectum shines forth like a star
If he can stretch his ass like that you can't deny
There's no limit to what you can do if you just try!
And I say GO!
Go goatse go, go!
Go goatse go, go!
Go goatse go, go!
Goatse be good!
So when the clouds of gloom are gath'rin round your head
And you think you might be better off if you were dead
Oh when the bombs of stress are burstin' in your brain
And you feel just like a ship tossed in a hurricaine,
Just think about the man whose anus gapes so wide,
And you'll find a source of power hidden deep inside!
And you'll say GO!
Go goatse go, go!
Go goatse go, go!
Go goatse go, go, go!
Goatse be good!
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Companies are inhibiting innovation, Cerf said, by letting users receive information faster than they can send it.
This is the most important statement in the article. Bandwidth is the main component of every Internet policy discussion. Upstream is probably at least as important as downstream. To seperate the two significantly is an attempt to confine people to the role of consumer: i.e. "stay on the couch."
Upstream bandwidth allows people to become *producers* too, which is a good thing(tm).
This is probably in the ARRL link.
:)
Field Day is themed about emergency communications, although it couldn't be considered "practice" for emergencies. (Running/participating in emergency nets, etc.) - That's what ARES/RACES drills are for.
Field Day is purely a contest - BUT it is a contest that was designed with emergencies in mind. Most ARRL (and international) contests have various operator classes - In the case of Field Day, operator classes are based on how your station is powered. I think there's also a rule stating that you can't operate from your own station.
So basically, all Field Day entrants MUST be using equipment brought to the operating position for the event, not stuff that is there at all times. (I think people HAVE operated in tents from backyards, but people prefer to go hardcore and do some mountaintopping, or go to a firehouse, etc. where they can set up with their club. Club operations from community firehouses, etc. seem to be the most common Field Day arrangements.)
As a result, Field Day makes sure there are plenty of operators in this country with portable (or semi-portable at least) equipment that can be set up in a matter of hours. Bonus points to those who can operate for a weekend without a single bit of help from AC mains.
I was thinking of making the trek back up to school for Field Day, but I need to do some car shopping instead. I wish it were a few weeks later.
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The article doesn't go into much detail about the discussions, and leaves a lot of questionable assertions dangling. For example, the claim that "Going too far one way would restrict freedom of choice, while the opposite could foster organized crime." The more you restrict freedom of choice, the more actions become criminal. And doesn't organize crime really take a foothold when undue restrictions are imposed upon the masses? The Prohibition in the United States is/was a pretty stark example.
That aside, check out the conference website for a full list of the subjects they're covering. You might also be interested in reading an interesting report from the US National Research Council and Eric Schmidt (the CEO of Google) about how the Internet is growing up, so to speak.
as governments try to exert control and businesses look to maximize profits.
Since when have governments not been trying to exert control and businesses not looking to maximise profits? This difference between upload/ download speed only comes into play when you go to anything above a 56k modem. For most internet users won't even know there's a difference in speed between the two as they hardly ever upload things.
Video Game cheats, hints a
NOIE never "got it" during the Internet boom days of 1999 and 2000, and it's clear they still don't "get it" now.
To them, it's all about money. Screw privacy so people can actually keep their personal information private. Screw authentication so your friend knows it's actually you're they're talking to. When you've got a religious zealot like Senator Richard Alston running a liberal, freewheeling, abstract, technical and artistic portfolio like Communications, Information Technology and the Arts, you're doomed to failure. At every turn, with regards to policy and proposed legislation is the shadowy hand of religious zealotry and fear - "close it down, lock it up, throw away the key, because only the heathens do it" sort of mentality.
Online gambling is the obvious example, with "content regulation" (aka censorship) being the other.
It should be no surprise that the NOIE representative is there pushing the out of touch, out of place, out of money approach.
Thank goodness NOIE got a swift kick in the pants at the last Federal Budget.
When they finally die, they will not be missed.
He pointed to the current "balkanization" of instant messaging, where a lack of standards prevents America Online users from communicating with people on rival services.
The people in this article made a very good point when they mentioned the problems that arise from upload speeds that differ wildly from the download speeds on the same service. However, the above point was just absolute stupidity. AIM and ICQ are COMPLETELY different services that function very differently from one another. They have differing levels of privacy, different ways of conveying information, and even very different ways of sending and receiving messages (AIM only receives messages when the user is online, while ICQ effectively acts as a short message equivalent to an e-mail account). A forced standard in this situation would do nothing but annoy those who have chosen AIM or ICQ specifically because they prefer the very different functions of whichever one they chose.
They're both referred to as "instant messaging services" (or some such), but that's where the similarities between AIM and ICQ end. Trying to force AIM and ICQ to conform to a standard is like trying to force ham radio companies and phone companies to conform to a standard. On the surface, they're very similar, as they're both forms of solely verbal communication between individuals or small groups. But the similarities stop there and the two services should be kept completely independant of one another for that reason.
The comment didn't say anything, so I read the article. That didn't say anything we haven't heard zillions of times before either, apart from the new (to me) idea that asymmetric bandwidth to the home is a conspiracy by ISPs and advertisers (and there was me thinking there were some technical considerations).
So why does this make the front page?
Business has already taken over the internet and destroyed much of it's utility. Too bad these guys didn't get any press around 1994 or so before the proverbial fit hit the shan. Now you can't even view most websites without accepting cookies, answering 3 pages of marketing survey questions, and closing 5 pop-up ads (not to mention that damn Best Buy advertisement that displays a bunch of stick figures dancing around on top of the NYT article I'm trying to read so I can't see the text and eventually decide that it's not worth the hassle to try). And quality content is buried deep underneath a pile of sites that modified their META tags or paid off the search engine owners to get themselves listed at the top of your search results despite their total irrelevance to the topic you're searching for information about.
I am not overly concerned about the upstream downstream issue. We have already seen tools that combine small amounts of bandwidth from many different users to make an "on demand fat upstream pipe", as long as all the upstreaming users have identical files on thier system.
People collaborating to share their upstream bandwidth with the inevitable second genration swarming tools that will follow the like of Open Cola and its brethren will completely solve this "problem".
I say inevitable, because whenever a situation like this is artificially created, wether it be censorship (Freenet) or email privacy (PGP), the small group of creative software writers that fix these problems always come up with a tool to redress the balance, and sometimes, change everyones thinking permanently (gnutella).
If I consulted for these media companies, I would advise them to let everyone have the bandwidth that they want, because trafic shaping, contention and other evils will force the creation and evolution of tools that will make it easier to share content, which is precisely what they are trying to restrict.
ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi
im not seeing it!
I'm where I say something at end of the lineComentes?
I do realize this man is referring to national laws applying to the world, yet even then it doesn't really matter. But I particularly liked this part:
Policymakers need to tread carefully, said Wolfgang Kleinwachter, professor of international communication at the University of Aarhus in Denmark. Going too far one way could restrict freedom and choice, he said, while the opposite could foster organized crime.
<sarcasm>
So logically, too much freedom and choice ends up as organized crime... Of course.
It's nice to see a nice foreign view on things. I hope nobody would go too far, though. I like my freedoms just as much as the next guy. I'm just glad we Americans don't have this problem. Really all the government is doing with laws like the DMCA is just stopping us from becoming crime bosses. Those net filters at the library are a simple means of preventing a mob war. What we need is prohibition those damn file-sharing apps...
</sarcasm>
I think you get it.
These type of efforts are so important
Theres a constan't culture clash here! In slashdot there are two major groups, the GEEKS and the TROLLS! The trolls always fight the geeks but the geeks are COWARDS and they cry to their mommies (the moderators) to moderate the TROLLS to -1! If youve got goatse.cx hiding in that other mozilla tab, then you are TROLL. If youre compiling your kernel while your reading this then your a GEEK!
"Web Thinkers"? I think not. These chumps are just people who could afford to go to some conference.
I've heard "big business is taking over the web" since the day I first installed Mosaic. It wasn't true then and it isn't true now.
Most big business, as everyone here who's worked for one or contracted for one knows, can't even UNDERSTAND the web let alone take the thing over. Sure, there's some big companies making some plays, but the web is wise to that stuff.
Sorry, just don't buy this kid of FUD.
And "we have to have more bandwidth" is hardly a comment worthy of someone billed as a "web thinker". Of course we all need more bandwidth. We also all need to eat healthy and take excercise. There's "health thinker" conferences for people who say these things as if they are new ideas, too!
Not trolling, just stating the blinding obvious!
I agree with the merits of your statement completely. However, I wonder how many "Joe Shmuck's" surfing the net at home really care about upstream bandwidth? I have to assume that the number of people who simply turn on their pc, check their email, and see what the Weather Channel(tm) website has to say about their local forecast is the largest percentage of typical users of the internet. A good chunk of the rest are mindlessly wandering around AOL (no further comment).
This would imply that the minority consists of we who read sites like Slashdot and care about upstream bandwidth. I have to stress the word minority here because if you:
A) care about bandwidth
B) want to be a producer or host
C) even know what the word "bandwidth" means
then you are definitely in the minority. Something I think we are all too quick to assume is that there is some type of universal intelligence on the part of web user's when there defintely is not. Again, (IMHO) I think most user's want to be a couch potato because they don't know or don't want to know anything more that would further complicate their lives.
Someone's previous observation that P2P software has changed this is assuming that all recipients of data equally want to be sources of data. I don't know about you, but uploaders really cramp my style on KaZaA. My downstream bandwidth gets killed because I have a 56K ISP uplink and a satellite dish downlink. I don't want to share data in this case as I can't get those cd's fast enough.
I've presented a case for the merchandiser/consumer model here. As long as the majority of user's stay stupid then marketers will increasingly seek alliances with service providers to affect the largest number of users possible. This is not only confined to the web - it reaches much further. Does Microsoft's recently announced partnership with Verizon bother anybody? It bother's me. As a Verizon customer (which I am), do I now have to face another outlet for "Windows" to be in my face on my phone? To hell with the contract cancellation penalties. I'll use two tin cans and a string the day I see ANY ad, service, etc... from MS on my cell phone.
Back to the web and the original article in general: perhaps the most troubling part of the reality to me is the admonishment of government influence/control. Perhaps I'll be labelled as a "terroristic threat"(tm GWB) for saying so, but with the level of paranoia up within an already visibly bipolar Bush adminstration I think we can expect certain government affects on our freedoms on the web (will the "right" to cruise the web soon become a revokable "privalege"?). But, for the majority, it's not a problem because they can still get their email and they can still check the weather channel as long as they behave themselves. HELLO !!!! Does anyone have a problem here or is it just me being paranoid again?
Haven't anyone noticed that the internet related-business is in a crisis and will not get out of it for the forseable future?
Most internet users don't upload because they cannot, with such a limited upstream b andwidth. Or is that because they don't upload that upstream bandwidth is generally inferior to downstream bandwidth ?
It'd be interesting to see the reasons that led to the technical choice of favoring downstream over upstream.
What I get out of your comment as a whole is:
'We are the eleeeeet! We are oh so coool!'
Get over it, dude.
McGill is what happens when you take a perfectly good English institutions and open it up to a bunch of frogs.
This does not mean however, that the cause is lost. Systems like Freenet, which is quite sh*te at sharing files Napster style, would work brilliantly if it was used as its author designed it to be used - sharing important information without fear of reprisal or censorship. The fact of the matter is, by restricting upload speeds, and encouraging the average user to stay a consumer, a corporation can in effect deny the user the framework to use the freedom they theoretically have gained from the internet.
Until these technical issues are solved, Joe Scmuck will remain a schmuck...
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will! - Antonio Gramsci.
"Companies are inhibiting innovation, Cerf said, by letting users receive information faster than they can send it. "
..."an attempt to confine people to the role of consumer: i.e. "stay on the couch."
"how many "Joe Shmuck's" surfing the net at home
Yeah, and how many Joe Shmuck's ever do anything innovative? Its not that there aren't plenty of Joe Shmuck I-want-to-be-a-couch-potato-forever(s) running around out there. The point is that the small percentage of innovative gifted talent out there should be exploring the possibilites and extending the potential, which won't happen while we're stuck in consumer mode. Controling access is to content allows content to be priced. When everyone has the ability to be a producer, then the 2% or 3% who can, will, and that will disturb the current access control models. Those models should be distrubed.
"We are actually at a point where we can make some very wrong decisions, and the Net will just kind of become like any other industry"
I think it is already too late for that. Once something is used by the common people it is an industry... an industry is mostly customers and people trying to make a buck off of customers. There are a few exceptions but I think we seeing the "almighty dollar" ruining the Internet in some ways(spam and pop-ups come to mind).
I think a new network based on openess is the way to go. Maybe Internet2(I don't know much about it) could be that network. Only allow organisations that adhere to a few mandates:
1. Apps and protocols that use Open standards.
2. Open source applications/protocols so they may evolve into open standards.
Keep the Classic Slashdot.
I'm not familiar with the intimate details of ISP-services, but here's a question.
Why can't ISP's just offer users the option of how much upload/download bandwidth they want. On my cable modem, I get about 100-300 KB/s download bandwidth, and about 40 KB/s upload bandwidth. That amounts to about 140-340 KB/s bandwidth total. Lets say that its 240 KB/s.
So why can't my ISP just offer me any combination of upload/download bandwidth totalling up to that?
Or any percentage combination?
Or why can't they set up a dynamic system where the amount of upload and download bandwidth automatically shifts depending on what I'm doing?
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
SLASHDOT CENSORSHIP!
"Duh"
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Numerous posts here proclaim that the Internet has already been ruined by big business. That is a load of crap. You can still write any software you please and deploy it over the Internet with no problems.
The fact that there are thousands of commercial web sites with pop-ups and cookies doesn't mean anything. Corporations should be free to make a profit just as you should be free to tune in to different sites.
The only thing that we have to worry about is hardware-based DRM and other such restrictions. Because of the investment and infrastructure needed to build a global network, we will be in a lot of trouble if restrictive HARDWARE manages to become the standard. Although such restrictions seem a long way off, it would be nice if some sort of democratic and non-profit institution could step in and start building network bandwidth in the event that the Comm. giants decide it's time to deploy a new 'Smart' Network.
Most of the cable modem technology out there limits you to 128kbps upstream, but it could do more if they wanted to set it for that. Some of the cable modem companies offer business-class service with 256kbps upstream and much better repair time guarantees, but the economics of the consumer-priced services are based on the idea that it's really just television and if it goes out for a day or two you can read a book or go to the movies.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Perhaps the danger is that there is a threat in the form of not just commercial interests, but non-geek interests. Of course the net got taken over by business. Why? Cause geekies make stuff that allowed for it to happen. Of course the dotcom is now the dotcalm. Why? Cause the geekies made stuff that allowed it to happen. Now the net is full of kiddies (or ex-kiddies like myself) poking our noses into everything and not really knowing squatt, but not caring. Why? Cause geekies made stuff to allow it to happen. Why? Cause geekies (like those of you who are composing in full sentences with a modicum of thought, not the rest of you) didn't have enough sense to design things in a way that it didn't happen. So, if there's anything wrong on the net. Whose fault is it? Sarah @ sarahsmiles.com
Sasm http://www.sarahsmiles.com Secretary of the Undead Cyber Yugoslavia http://www.jugo.com
While Vint and his chums write insightful pieces on why there might be a possible problem with conflicts of interest, the commercial interests just carry on buying up the laws and precedents to do whatever they damn well want with the root servers and TLD's.
The problem with reasonable, balanced, polite objections is that the other side is utterly convinced that might makes right. They see Vint and his kind as irrelevant dinosaurs, and they see us not as contributing netizens, but as consumers.
Vint, Vint, stop being so nice. Start asserting the bald fact: the net is for individuals, not for companies. Don't make the mistake of justifying that or explaining why it should be so, because the commercial interests damn well don't. Just assert it, and keep on asserting it more confidently every day. There's a war on for control of the internet, and wars aren't won through appeasment and debate, they're won through a single minded belief that there can be only one possible outcome, and that's that we will win this.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
The funny thing about the internet is that it is the first medium where there's an upstream. Every single mass media before it has had downstream but NO upstream. Look at the radio and television. You could do small communication between parties, but you could never reach the audience that you can online. This creates a conundrum among business because media has been shaped for the past century with produces and consumers. The produces and consumers have remained fairly separated except for a few enthusiasts. Because of the fact that the web now empowers everyone to become a producer easily, we get a flurry of geocities pages made by some mom in Iowa equipped with a copy of MS Frontpage. However, to become more serious about empowering more to become producers, upstream would have to be increased which could cause an upset in the way business is done. Business has remained split for the past century, and with inertia, is trying to remain that way.
I'm currently running Gaim (a Linux/X/Gtk client originally developed for AIM compatibility) which uses a plugin system to connect to several competing IM servers (ICQ, AIM, MSN, Napster etc.) - as far as I can see, Trillian is its Windows equivalent (I don't know which came first).
The Gaim developers have stopped working on their ICQ plugin, because the same protocol ("Oscar") and server (login.oscar.aol.com port 5190) will work for both services, and their AIM plugin has expanded to have full ICQ functionality - you just fill in an ICQ number and password rather than an AIM screenname and password.
AIM and ICQ still don't seem to interoperate - I'm not sure whether this is a Gaim-ism or an AOL problem, but sending a message from my ICQ account to my AIM account (or vice versa) fails.
"The country is headed toward a single and splendid government of an aristocracy founded on banking institution and monied incorporations and if this tendency continues it will be the end of freedom and democracy, the few will be ruling and riding over the plundered plowman and the begger in the omenry." - Thomas Jefferson, 1816
"We're going to need to have these corporations redefined as instruments of public service because they have the resources, they have the reach, they have the skill base, and maybe there's a new generation coming up that wants to achieve meaning in that context and have an impact, and that may be a more efficient way to deal with society's problems than governments." - Plutocrat Gerald Levin's testimony before the USA Congress.