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Doom3 and OpenGL2.0
Screaming Lunatic writes "John Carmack has decided to write an OpenGL2.0 rendering path for Doom3. You can read his .plan or you can finger him. This will be huge for the development of OpenGL2.0. Video cards are typically benchmarked with respect to the framerate when running Quake3. Future benchmarks will be based on Doom3. This means IHVs will be somewhat forced to write good OpenGL2.0 implementations."
Why people can't just agree that it's a nice, easy standard, very powerful, flexible and open?
oops, excuse me for a while, I think I forgot to take my medication today.
A message from the system administrator: 'I've upped my priority. Now up yours.'
..or you can finger him... /.ers fingering him at once*
*pictures thousands of
I think this is going to be a very uncomfortable day for someone
You can finger your girlfriend,
You can finger John Carmack,
But you can't get your girlfriend to write good vertex shading code!
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
That could make the difference between life and death for Open GL in the face of Direct X etc. Thankyou ID, even if I don't like your games!
Well firstoff I'd like to commend Carmack on his choice to utilize the new OpenGL extensions -- I think this is the absolute best thing for graphic cards to be focusing on. It levels the playing field and doesn't favour certain chipset manufacturers with propietary extensions.
:)
Also, what are the (linux ported) open sourced applications (read: games) which use OpenGL for rendering?
Are they common? Would this possibly mean that a future port of Doom3 would be (more) easily done once the game is finished?
Also, does anyone know if there will be a supported version of Doom3 for Linux, or will we be relying on ported versions? If the latter is true, didn't Loki games file for Ch. 11? If they did, what is the likely hood of another company/group making the transistion. By the time Doom3 comes out I'll prolly buy a brand new system, and if I could throw linux on that brand new hardware and still play Doom3, well heck - that would be peachy
dmarien
http://www.gamespy.com/e32002/pc/carmack/index2.sh tml
I wish I could rip off Carmack's words and present them as my own, that would make me uber-leet like you.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Also, I hope the card manufacturers get off their derriers and actually release OpenGL 2.0 drivers and libraries faster than like 2 years after they do it for Windows. Stupid MS loving bastardos!!
You made a carmack icon? Impale it on a stick for extra grins.
Hey, my company's firewall blocks it too. Suckage... I wonder if our companies are using the same stuff. Or *gasp* do we work at the same company??
This won't force companies to write good OpenGL 2.0 drivers, it will only force them to write drivers that impement those functions that DOOM 3 uses, the other functions may not even be implemented properly or implemeted at all.
As a former VooDoo (various versions) owner this is just fine if you only want to play games made by a few big name companies, but if your like me and looking to play smaller or indy games you'll find that your lucky if the games even run.
void Mordor(Doom as Mountain){
One Doom::Ring to rule('') them(ALL)
One Doom::Ring to bind('') them(NULL)
One Doom::Ring to bring('') them(ALL)
In VRTX_SHADER("Darkness") bind('') them(NULL)
return Frodo;
}
Wait. Wrong doom... nevermind
Just because DoomIII uses OpenGL I don't believe card manufactures will race out to upgrade their OpenGL support. If a dozen or so games do, that's another story but to bend over for one game just doesn't make sense financial, especially since the other 95% of games use DirectX.
Sure my Nvidia 4400 might not get Doom to run as well as Serious Sam, Unreal II, Star Wars Galaxies, Neverwinter Nights, etc. etc. but who honestly cares? If Nvidia increases their support of OpenGL more power to em, that would be great, but one game won't decide the future, even if it is Doom III (Which I believe will fail to live up to hype).
Not intended as a flame by any means (it seems anything with a negative viewpoint is a 'flame'...whatever....) but there's a lot of hype on Doom III and some of it is deserved and some of it is just hype. I'm guessing it won't meet expectations when it does come out and won't be in the same spirit of the original Doom games (which were frag fests and fun not horror and lighting).
Let's also not forgot a general user who will have a higher end machine and not comprehend how their other games look gorgous and run exceptionally well and Doom III just doesn't meet their framerate and effects expectations due to the fact its in OpenGL instead of DirectX.
I hope they support both standards as DirectX isn't going away anytime soon and like it or not, it is a great set of tools which have helped bring about computer gaming to what it is today.
this will mean that card makers write drivers that are *optimized for Doom 3's use of OpenGL 2*, not that they'll write good OpenGl drivers in general. This has been the case sicne Quake 2. Drivers are optimized to score well on Quake benchmarks above all else, which hurts their performnce in a more generalized sense. This will help adoption of OpenGL 2, but not as quickly or as robustly as many would like to see.
"Moderate drinking can help prevent amputated limbs" -- Abigail Zuger, NYTimes, 12/31/02
This is really great news. This was one area where OpenGL was under threat of being overrun by Direct3D and/or proprietary, vendor specific extensions.
In recent months I have become worried that OpenGL 2.0 would be dead in the water as a standard, because progress seemed slow. I was wondering whether we would ever see OpenGL 2.0 as an accepted standard. Now that is far more likely. This is definately a Good Thing as far as standards are concerned. Nice one, Mr. Carmack!
Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
...to make me feel both ignorant and stupid at the same time. Really puts things in perspective. Sure, I may be smart, but there's no comparison.
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
...they're using it in the first place. The original "mini-GL" driver for GLQuake was wildly successful even though it was only a partial implementation of OpenGL 1.x. Down the road, we now have full hardware openGL implementations, which probably would never had happened without the initial momentum that GLQuake caused. The video card vendors will never release OpenGL drivers for their hardware if they have no demand for it - this accountment will give them just that. There is now a business case for assigning developer hours to the project.
Besides, what would you rather have? An impetus for groundbreaking work on a hardware OpenGL 2.0 implementation, or another ringing endorsement for DirectX 8?
Is the Doom3 test been released about a month or maybe two weeks before the windows test.
In previous releases idsoftware has released test versions of their games before the full release, in order to do some beta testing.
If they decide to release a linux version of Doom3, and given Carmack's good attitude towards open source and OpenGL, I really really would love if they go and piss off Mr Gates by releasing the test for Linux first.
I bet that a zillion gamers would install Linux just to be able to test Doom3. They have been waiting for years!!
When his defense asked, "Which computer has Jon Johansen trespassed upon?" the answer was: "His own."
If there was any doubt of it before, this finally proves it: John Carmack, You Da Man!
I've been reading the OpenGL 2.0 whitepaper and it has a lot of things I like. Let's just hope that 3DLabs, et al. will finish with it soon.
... For this game to come out! I just went on my super cool linux box and renamed all my OpenGL1.2.1 files to OpenGL2.0.0!!! I am soooo ready for doom3!
That was where much of the Linux Mesa and OpenGL work, especially the hardware stuff, was collected. I remember seeing a while back that they had laid off a bunch of workers, including Brian Paul. The Precision Insight URL no longer responds, but a quick Google shows Mesa work ongoing, and Brian Paul now at Tungsten Graphics doing largely the same type of stuff he's been doing all along.
Maybe there's hope of OpenGL 2 for Linux, after all. Next will be pursuading Carmack et al not to use Microsoft lock-in compilers.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Go read some of Abrash's Black Book. The guy makes jokes out of assembly language. The only laughing I ever did was that nervous kind that you do while thinking, "Boy, am I out of my league..."
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
Didn't MS buy OpenGL patents from SGI recently?
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
New game engines from id are Big Deals in the game industry. These are what most people benchmark on, these are what people can't wait to get their hands on, these outsell anything claiming to be competition. It's make-or-break for video card companies. If their cards are shown to be poor performers compared to the brands that did race to upgrade GL support, their sales will plumit while the others escalate.
A new game engine from id does not mean just one game. They license their game engines out to many companies, and from there many games are made. ...Maybe even "a dozen or so", enough to make any video card makers that handn't already... take notice.
Yeah, it's not as if building an X-prize level rocket ship doesn't have any world-changing potential.
No direct 3D there, just OpenGL. It also used Direct X elements (Direct Input and Direct Sound, at least) but all the 3D goodness is via OpenGL.
Behold the Power of Cheese!
Two things:
1) Its Doom 3. It is guaranteed to sell like crazy, whether its good or not. If you're card doesn't run Doom 3 well, you might was well just not release it.
2) ID licenses the engines. Doom 3 will be *the* engine to have over the next year or two. If you're hardware can't run all those games (definately more than a dozen) again, don't even bother releasing it.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
"I'll believe OpenGL is dead when I can run all my DirectX games on Linux."
And my Mac.
You must own an ATI card...
Go get yourself an nvidia card and you will have OGL2 within a week or two of the windows version (or maybe sooner).
People bash nvidia for releasing closed drivers - but they should really be praised for even considering it in the first place.
Derek
There was a spinlock deadlock in one of the earlier versions of their drivers. You had to wait for them to get around to fixing it. Now, the same could be said of the ATI drivers, but someone skilled enough could go and fix that bug.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
OpenGL 2.0 is a shader language specification amongst other things. In order to support Doom3, you're going to very likely have to support all of it pretty well- it'd be like someone stripping out features from GCC or VC++ so that it compiled Doom3 better than anything else.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
uh... let's see.
1. Install Red Hat 7.3
2. Download Nvidia drivers
3. Install according to instructions on website
Voila - accelerated 3D on Linux -
Q3A and RtCW run great!
(just what were you supposedly spending all this time on?)
From reading various bits of info on the web, there seem to be four different code paths. An nVidia codepath, an ATI codepath, a default codepath, and now the OpenGL2.0 codepath.
So Matrox and 3DLabs pretty much have to put out OpenGL2.0 drivers to run Doom3 or they can implement nVidia/ATI OpenGL1.3 extensions. But the interesting case is the nVidia codepath.
The Geforce3/4 has 4 texture units. The Radeon8500 has 6 texture units. You would have to assume that the next line of nVidia cards would have more texture units. To take advantage of the extra texture units, it would seem that nVidia would have to write OpenGL2.0 drivers. This is definitely a good thing.
honest, this isn't a troll. true story, a sad one.
good friend of mine, a roommate for years , was in a decent learning stage with computers. Blue collar worker, saved his nickles and dimes, bought a decent but used and still almost new computer. Was doing fine, learning new things, etc.
got a copy of doom.
He became addicted, I got to the point I hated that evil sound coming from that game. He would stay up until very late playing it, lost all interest in learning about computers. His modem screwed up and he didn't bother to get another one, stopped surfing. He started mising work sometimes, claimed he was "sick", but it was doom and beer and lack of sleep. He worked at that demon fucking game like a job paying triple time. We're talking some days 16-18 hours playing doom.
One day he gets in a small beef at work, it was reallynothing, but he walks off the job, goes home. (we worked the same place). I get home later, he's drunk playing doom, oblivious, not responsive, wouldn't haerdly acknowledge a "HI0what happened today?" from me.
He stayed up all night playing doom, getting drunker.
In the morning, I had to go to work, I see him stagger into the kitchen and go to the cupboard and barely be able to uncap an aspirin bottle, shakes a few out, goes back to doom.
So, I'm hitting the shower, got to go to work. a few minutes later Ihear BANG!
He'd walked out into the front yard in surburbia, stuck a 12 gauge in his mouth, and there was pieces of skull and brains and hair all over the front yard.
fuck doom and the doom developers. fuck them all to hell and back. I knew that game was evil first time I saw him play it, along with the subsonics in the audio youcould feel. it's just "wrong". that shit is evil. so are a bunch of other video games I've seen. Not all of them by any means, but some certainly are. They are jack off violence pornographic. That's as simple and clear as it can be put into the english language. They implicity revel in heinous repulsive activity, merely "simulated". It's porno, admit it, sickass violent porno.
This is a real story, happened 4 years ago. This is also after around 50,000 or so estimated forum and news posts I've done on the net over the years the most I have ever cursed in a single post. In fact I hardly ever curse, I really can't cuss this shit out enough. Ya, he did it to himself, it was his "choice" but I'm telling you, that fucking doom had something to do with it, too, it was obvious as shit. It hit him same as any hard drug, and I'd bet a years pay there's people here just as addicted to doom or something like that, or theyknow someone like that, but are chicken shit to go against geekdom and admit that some things are just plain "wrong"and shouldn't be done.
If there's an doom developers read this, I fucking hate you. You are some sick people.
"I'm sure D3D will suck less with each forthcoming version, but this is an oportunity to just bypass dragging the entire development community through the messy evolution of an ill-birthed API." - John Carmack, 1996
They that quote Benjamin Franklin on liberty and safety deserve neither.
I cannot stand people like this. They think, "why do we need OpenGL when we have DirectX?" They never stop to think it's maybe because DirectX isn't work crap for professional applications! And there are many others where DirectX (fka "direct DOS memory map") is quite limiting.
There are probably another 1,000 different Microsoft technologies that are the same. Like MS Word for example. Publication companies don't use it because they need a standardized, documentation and typeset language underneath that doesn't change every 2 years!
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
Get a grip dude. Doom is not evil.
I have to admit, that is a tragic story and something no-one should ever have to go through.
That said, it's a fucking computer game. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not a physically addictive chemical. It wasn't created from a pact with the devil, in an attempt to lure people to sinful (suicidal) deaths. It's pixels (blocky ones at that) on a screen, and a pretty limited set of sounds being repeated through a set of (normally pretty crappy) speakers.
Your friend got addicted to it - well I'm sorry, but don't go blaming anyone else, even the people that made it.
Your friend started skipping work and playing 18+hours/day? Shit, didn't that clue him into the fact that something was getting a bit fucked up with his priorities and he ought to stop? When I started playing CivIII until 3:00 in the morning and I had to get up at 6:30 for work, I realised that it was time to delete the thing. Do I blame the writers for making such a great game? No. I congratulate them. And then I deleted it. When I realised that I was really _needing_ a drink to get me going some days a while back after I'd started drinking heavily for a month or so after a girlfriend left me, I realised it was time to stop drinking completely for a while and just get over her. Do I blame beer for being a seductive place of solace, or the brewers who made it? No. Do I blame by girlfriend? No. She didn't see a future for us and ended it. What was she supposed to do? Stay in a relationship she didn't like for the sole purpose of not hurting my feelings? Hell no. That's part of being an adult. You realise when your life isn't doing what it should, and sort it out. It's your life, and you gotta take responsibility for it.
Shit, didn't it occur to _you_ that you oughta talk your friend out of this sort of behaviour? Or force him out of it? Get rid of the source of his fix? Some fucking friend you turned out to be.
All Doom had to do with your friends unforunate demise was be there.
It's not `wrong'. It's not `evil'. Neither is it `right' or `good'. It just is. And you or your friend or anyone else on the planet can take it or leave it. What they get out of it is entirely their own responsibility. That's one of the breaks of being an adult in a free country.
Stop blaming other people for your friend's death. It's not their fault. Get. Over. It.
K.
Why doesn't the gene pool have a life guard?
with John. He was asked "Hey, you guy are incredibly talented. Why don't you use it for more seriuos purposes".
The answer was that they made games because nobody will die if they make a bug or if something does not work.
How things turned out. Ok, this guy that commited suicide was ill, but if it's true, they did end up killing people indirectly (not that they really killed anyone, but in the sense that you can't know what would have happened if they haven't programmed Doom).
Anyone remembers that interview? (it's been a long time since then!)
unfinished: (adj.)