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DotGNU Meet-a-thon
Gopal.V writes "It's time for the Quarterly DotGNU IRC Meet-a-thon. As usual, we'll be having it on #dotgnu on irc.openprojects.net. We will be discussing the current state of DotGNU, where we've gone and where we should be headed. Anyone who is interested should join us. In particular, we are not only looking for developers to be involved in this meet, but also potential DotGNU users. We are very interested in addressing any questions/input from anyone who will one day use our framework. So come one, come all. The last meet was a lot of fun and we expect this this IRC meet will be even better than the last. Again, the IRC meet is taking place on: Server: irc.openprojects.net, Channel: #dotgnu. The meeting will run for a 36 hour period from 22:00 UTC Saturday 29 July 2002 until 10:00 UTC Monday 31 July. Every 4 hours will be an official meet time, when the major DotGNU members will be online. Most discussions will revolve round DotGNU projects and other issues concerning freedom in the new MS initiatives like .NET , and Palladium." I think this announcement may be slightly wrong on the times since it disagrees with the post to the email list; but this is posted as submitted.
did anyone notice the M$ .NET banner at the top?
shouldn't that be GNU/dot?
New MS initiatives like .NET? Since when is .NET new? Last I heard, dotGNU had been created as a Free Software alternative to .NET.
IIRC, I read that DotGNU will enable you to run your C# programs on the free GNU/Linux operating system using exclusively free software. With DotGNU, you will be able to use C# if you wish, without surrendering your freedom to study, share, change, and generally control all the software that you use.
This is, of course a boon, however it is worthless without some soft of workaround for Microsoft's Palladium scheme:
Microsoft's "Palladium certification scheme will rip the guts out of the GPL. That is, the minute I begin tinkering with my software, my ability to interface with the Great PKI in the Sky will be broken. I'll have a Linux box with a GPL, all right; but if I exercise the license in any meaningful way I'll render my system 'unauthorized for Palladium' and lose business. So instead, I imagine I'll be turning to my vendor for support, updates, modifications and patches. And I'll be dependent on them for support services at whatever price they can wheedle out of me because I dare not lose my Palladium authorization. I wonder if the cost of ownership of an open-source system will actually be lower than the cost of a proprietary system under such circumstances."
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Oh boy!
:
While visiting openprojects.net on IRC, not only do you get to chat with your friends, you get free lilo spam!
That's right, free lilo spam! Greatest thing there is! The man who wants to enjoy a hobby, and have _you_ pay for it!
Take a look at
http://www.lilofree.net and http://liloaid.ecce.co.uk/ and others!
I've been upset with this too. I wouldn't put it as above, although there are some valid.. statements, heh ;)
Try this url too for a petition against this silliness.
It is a shame that COBOL has Fujitsu to develop COBOL.NET but that Ada has no such large corporate to perform this sort of work. Without such a sponsor it is hard to see how Ada gets out of the catch22 of: User: "Why use Ada when it doesn't support feature X?" Vendor: "Why support feature X when there is no user demand?"
Perhaps there is some hope in the 'DotGNU' project. The item that interested me in the FAQ for this is:
"1.17 Will C and C++ be supported in DotGNU?
Would you like to see Ada support in DotGNU?Fighting .NET is stupid. .NET is a great technology, it's an ECMA standard.
.NET == MyServices == Palladium which is not the case.
I understand the fear of Hailstorm/MyServices (which is now dead, MS gave up on it), Palladium, etc.
It seems that the project leaders here are misinformed since they seem to think that
Support Mono, not dotGNU!
1. I think it's great that they are trying to prevent MS from taking over the web; they or others should also watch out for Palladium.
2. The Free Software community will never really beat MS if it always tries to catch up with them. It should innovate on a large scale, visions for a free web etc, so that the industry and MS will be busy trying to catch up.
I know you're trolling.
But, If not for Lilo, you would not have an OPN. The dude works real hard to keep the networking running optimal. I don't think someone who spends so much time providing such great service to this community should be spoken of like that. If you dont like his wallops turn them off, you know how to do it right?
OPN is a great network, not only that it's the main gathering place for a number of big support groups (eg: Debian). Lilo keeps the network safe, clean and secure.
BTW: I know the idiot in UK who's being going around making anti-semetic statments about Lilo, he used to be an IrcOP on OPN, but got kicked out. The kid is a real sore (him and his sister), I wouldn't be suprised if you were him or those sites are his.
What have you done for the community lately?
The times should have been "10:00 UTC Saturday 29th July until 22:00 UTC Sunday 30th July". Sorry for any confusion. Please join us on irc.openprojects.net#dotgnu, any time this weekend.
I'm especially disappointed with Rob Levin, but at the same time, I'm proud of OFTC.net which is turning out to be a worthy replacement for OpenProjects. Once again, people have demonstrated the Internet's abilitity to route around greed the same way it routes around damage.
For those who aren't up to scratch with IRC history, Rob Levin is the founder of OpenProjects, a successful forum for Open Source developers. However, recently he was sacked from his workplace. Despite being offered employment in his area and worldwide, he has refused them on grounds of "being too good" and has instead taken the easy way out and pilfered the OpenProjects funds to maintain his $150,000 per annum income. Levin is now nothing more than an opportunist who is exploiting the goodwill of sponsors and the community, misrepresenting his own personal keep-me-rich charity as an Open Source fund, despite never having contributed a single line of code to any Open project. Recently, he's taken to abusing volunteers and developers on the IRC network, threatening to shut them down or "K-Line" (permanent ban) them from the network unless they conform with his views and contribute to his salary, in effect trying to milk them for money. He also knows exactly what people with resources to donate want to hear and is often able to sweet-talk money out of companies and individuals who want to assist the Open Source community.
Note that I have nothing but respect for the other OpenProjects staff members, particularly their ircd coders. I hope that they will be successful in ejecting LILO from the team before he runs OpenProjects onto the rocks. After all, the network is every bit their property and the property of the bandwidth sponsorors as it is of this corrupt and misguided individual.
In the meantime, I welcome you to #Mandrake and #kernelnewbies on irc.oftc.net!
Is your browser retarded?
Fighting .NET is stupid. .NET is a great technology, it's an ECMA standard.
.NET functionality are another matter entirely.
Hardly. The only parts that have been submitted to the ECMA are C# and the CLI. Everything else, all the parts that provide the
Why do people keep modding up this troll?
Ripped off from
Stallman added: "Mono will enable you to run your C# programs on the free GNU/Linux operating system using exclusively free software. With Mono, you will be able to use C# if you wish, without surrendering your freedom to study, share, change, and generally control all the software that you use."
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
You have every right to disagree with Rob Levin's behavior. Lots of people do. But how does this have anything to do with the decision to use OPN for what it is intended for?
If you consider it a successful forum for Open Source developers, and you have nothing but respect for the other staffers, I don't understand why there is cause to discourage the use of OPN.
WTF are you talking about? He said "I read that...." and then put a GIANT FUCKING LINK to DotGNU (the site where the Stallman interview is). Quit karma-whoring and do something useful.
If you would, please note the proper citation, and the link to DotGNU.ORG.
Mods, please mod this idiot down as a troll, as he's just wasting others' karma. Thanks.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
The stallman interview isn't even fucking about dotgnu. You stole stallman's words and put in a few hyperlinks. I don't give a fuck about karma, I've had 50 ever since the cap was put in, I'm just sick of seeing a troll abuse the system. Anyone who mods you down as anything but overrated is going to get slapped in metamod because the message looks insightful and ontopic, they won't realize you are a fucking poser, stealing other people's words because you are too lame to write anything interesting yourself.
lilo is asking for personal donations. he is asking OPN users to pay his car loan. no thanks.
lilo is replaceable.
I'm surprised you revealed that you programmed ASP using VB and Javascript. I never tell that to anyone.
The stallman interview isn't even fucking about dotgnu. You stole stallman's words and put in a few hyperlinks.
.NET, one that will respect your freedom, and
Tell that to Richard Stallman:
Richard M. Stallman, founder of the GNU project and president of the Free
Software Foundation, said: "With Mono and DotGNU, we hope to provide a
good alternative to all of
your privacy. You will be able to use the facilities of Mono and DotGNU
either with, or without, the Internet, and using servers of your choice."
It is official; netsplit.de confirms: OPN is dying
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered OPN community when netsplit.de confirmed that OPN market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. This news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. OPN is collapsing in complete disarray.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict OPN's future. The hand writing is on the wall: OPN faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for OPN because OPN is dying. Things are looking very bad for OPN. As many of us are already aware, OPN continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
In the past month, OPN has lost 3 servers. With the current count of 29 servers, it will logically be 9 months until there are no servers remaining at all. Obviously, the network will probably survive slightly longer than this; it may even drag on for a whole extra year, crawling along like an undead corpse.
Network operator lilo also faces a bleak future. With his rapidly deteriorating financial situation and crucial position to the running and future of the network, it is only a matter of weeks before he is forced to leave and OPN descends into anarchy and chaos without a leader.
Fact: OPN is dying
lilo may have initiated OPN, but it was made possible by many people. While lilo has the right to sit and spam us on OPN, it is quite lame. The funds you donate to OPN go to pay for lilo's rent and utilities... that is, when there are enough donations and he's not living out of a box.
I used to respect lilo for what he had done. Now I've lost most of that respect. Come on lilo... get a job and shut up already.
Lilo,
I've supported you in my previous comments, but this from you? I just compaired this comment with your own logged in comment below. I think you are Astrotufing any anti-Lilo comments here, and I found that childish.
Look LILO, whatever you are doing here doesn't help your cause. I really respected you and what you did for OPN, but this is just too childish.
I've been analayzing comments posted in support of you with regard to your own comments posted as Lilo -- logged into slashdot. And from the grammar used, from the way the sentenses were used, from the way certain words are made bold, it is highly likely that you are posting all these comments pretending to be some AC supporting you. Shame on you Lilo. I thought you were cool. But this is ridiculas and completely unprofessional.
A person of your age should not care about all the trolls who post these comments and try to flood your network. YOU ARE THE CAUSE OF YOUR TROLLS. If you stopped adding fire and salt to those flames they would have stopped long ago, do you see people trolling this bad about others who have similar positions as you?
Frankly you owe ppl an explaination and an apology.
Sick of it.
Please mod down my parent post above, I now believe that Lilo is all that the ppl here say he is. I take back anything nice I have said about him. But Lilo should not be the cause of you not supporting OPN. OPN could exist without Lilo.
Linux has no future, the GPL will be destroyed by Microsoft, the United States economy will crumble, and the moon is going to crash into the Earth, possibly somewhere in the middle east.
Thats exactly the point. Lilo doesnt believe that OPN could exist without him. When he makes his notices he believes it is for the good of OPN, because as he sees it, OPN == him.
In the past few weeks, several servers have delinked and quite a few of his staff has quit, fed up with his behaviour. He doesnt care. He's willing to hurt OPN (losing servers and knowledgable and useful members of staff) for his own ends.
In short, you cannot support OPN without supporting lilo, because he will destroy it before he lets anyone else have it. If you want to support the Open Source/Free Software community, support OFTC - its small but growing, and run by people who are a darn sight more competent and professional than lilo.
I should also mention that hes also driven several large channels away in the past few weeks. Infact, it got so bad that several days ago he had some kind of breakdown, acting like a child in a temper tantrum, broadcasting all kinds of stupid shit onto the wallops announcements. It should be interesting to see what OPN is like when it has no channels and only a handful of servers left.
Well our compiler is sort of a plugin API for developing new compiler .. it wouldn't be too tough :-)
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
I don't believe this is true. Lilo is very respectable individual. We have the largest support channels on all of our community, starting with our huge Debian channels and their sister channels. Many other distributions support us, including Mandrake and Redhat. We have made a forum that is troll free and flood free. If I have to unlink a few hosts that are havens for trolls, I think that's for the better. We believe OPN is one of very few IRC networks that works and it's all cause of lilo's dedication and the team that he assembled.
Here's the dillema. I'm seeing this move from nice, open standards (C/C++) to languages that have strings attached, like Java and C$^H#. Even if C# is an ECMA standard, there is no getting around the fact that Microsoft is the one guiding its development and evolution. I don't know about the rest of you, but after what MS has done with Win32, I really don't trust them to come up with good API and language standards. And even if they do, I'd rather not have their hands on the riens. Why is there no truly open project (I'm talking ISO C/C++ open) trying to take on C# and Java instead of merely copying them?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Is CIL a standard? has joined #dotgnu g \_ \ _.--------.______\| | g o \ \______// _ ___ _ (_(__> \ | o a \ . C ___) ______ (_(____> | / a t /\ | C ____)/ \ (_____> |_/ t
s / /\| C_____) | (___> / \ s
e | ( _C_____)\______/ // _/ / \ e
x | \ |__ \\_________// (__/ | x
ö SignOff Masochist: #dotgnu (Remote closed the connection)
@_@
I think MS's biggest strength is their development toolset. If Linux
had an equivelent for DotGNU/Mono then we would be in a much
stronger position. This appears to be Miguel de Icaza's perspective
Yeah let's moderate the "meet" so nobody can ask any real questions.
By "haven for trolls" do you mean "the whole continent of Australasia"? Because thats what happened - all the Australian servers quit. The sponsors of the servers got fed up with lilo using the servers they donated for Open Source development for his own personal gain.
Honestly, I respect what lilo has done in building up OPN to what it is, but he is taking things to extremes at which I draw the line. His eventual plan is to set up a non profit organisation of which he will be an employee - this will allow him to (a) trick companies into paying him to sit on IRC all day (if he even worked on the ircd code or something I might find this acceptable, but he doesnt) and (b) get those donations tax free. In short, he is (and I quote from KainX.org, "using the resources controlled and managed by a domestic non-profit organization for personal gain, an activity prohibited by the laws of both the United States and the state of Texas in which PDPC is incorporated, not to mention in direct violation of the very articles of incorporation he himself filed with the Secretary of State's office in Texas."
Lilo is using his position to sponge off the Open Source community. It is no wonder that he is unwilling to give up his power, and is willing to destroy OPN to keep it. Open your eyes.
GPL is only good for coding public utilities like Apache,Samba etc. There is no way to sustain a private buisness using GPL where you need to share your code unless you can strong arm competition like Red Hat does (forced RPM binary packages...) and charge $750 for a certification program where there is no market for Linux Sys admins (yes it's true go troll Hotjobs or monster.com the only Linux Admin jobs are at rackspace.com the rest are intense development jobs a RHCE would be useless for.
This story should be brought back up like a day or two before it begins
Lilo is just a bootloader, chill out guys
Have you seen his code? What language was he
using when he worked for Lineo? I've seen his
perl and it's quite nasty..
What's with DotGNU and C#? I thought C# was owned by Microsoft, but perhaps I'm wrong.
ECMA owns the Copyright for C# .. so they own it
not MSFT
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
There's always SlashNET.
Which is based on your expert analysis of writing style, right?
Bah.
You are wrong. The post to which you refer was writtin by me, not lilo. Something I pointed out to you soon after you made the baseless accusation in the first place, in a post in which I identified myself. Which has, in turn, been backed-up by somebody with a /. account.
The fact that you've repeated your unjustified accusation, rather than having admitted your error, as an honest and forthright person would have done, speaks volumes about the value of your judgement of others.
These would be the same "competent" people that created a web page with black text on a dark blue background, thus rendering it unreadable, would it? Impressed, I am.
The first thread about this 'lilo' guy and his 'bullshit' had me believing the trolls, but now that we've got a second thread about it I'm starting to wonder. :)
the real at&t mix
By Marc Tilley
Special to ZDNet News
June 28, 2002, 4:30 PM PT
Open Projects Network, a popular chat service frequented by Linux and Open Source developers, is coming under intense scrutiny for its alleged links to the Church of Scientology.
ZDNet News was contacted recently via E-mail by an anonymous person claiming to be a former administrator for Open Projects. The person was in possession of scanned copies of apparently legitimate banking records. Amid other less suspicious transactions, these records show numerous fund transfers from the Open Projects bank account to both the "Church of Scientology of Texas" and the "Austin Dianetics Center" over the course of one year.
Founded in 1994 by Robert Levin, Open Projects provides online Internet Relay Chat (IRC) rooms for Open Source developers to collaborate. IRC is a free, distributed chat service traditionally run by unpaid volunteers. Open Projects collects donations from its patrons to fund the cost of maintaining the network.
The Church of Scientology, founded in 1954, has an estimated 8 million members in more than 70 countries. The controversial church has been criticized for its initiation of several international lawsuits aimed at silencing critics.
Our point of contact refused requests to talk further with ZDNet News by phone, despite assurances that their identity would remain confidential.
Numerous calls seeking comment from both Scientology and Levin were not returned.
Like trolling on Slashdot ? Quick, I think your mom's calling you for your bedtime.
You're not disappointed with his dismissal of OPN. You're disappointed with my dismissal which I posted to kerneltrap a good 24 hours ago. Nevertheless, I'm willing to let it slip by as a well-moderated post is more likely to get the message through. Still, sad that people have to copy-and-paste articles word-for-word :-(
I'm also disappointed to see people like you are still supporting Levin as I have seen him insult and hurt the feelings of innocent developers trying to use "OPN for what it is intended for" for no apparent reason. The abuse of power can't just be shrugged off; the issue must be addressed -- and the best way of doing so is by providing a community-driven alternative.
-- Richard Osborne
this i gotta see! please paste the log if you have it.
Still, sad that people have to copy-and-paste articles word-for-word :-(
Ah, well then my appoligies. It is a pretty sad state of affairs when one feels compelled to post on Slashdot so badly, yet can't think of anything intelligent to say, and proceeds to steal someone else's thoughts.
I'm also disappointed to see people like you are still supporting Levin as I have seen him insult and hurt the feelings of innocent developers trying to use "OPN for what it is intended for" for no apparent reason. The abuse of power can't just be shrugged off; the issue must be addressed -- and the best way of doing so is by providing a community-driven alternative.
Interesting that since I didn't outright slam Rob in my post, you assume that I support his actions.
Regardless, I do not see how one can assert that OPN is not community driven, considering the thousands of people that regularly sign on. As a long time regular in a handful of channels, I feel fairly confident saying there is indeed a strong community there, and that I am a part of it.
Frankly, I consider starting an alternate network over the behavior of one staffer to be a foolish waste of the resources that have been invested in OPN by countless individuals who are not Rob Levin. It seems to me a far more prudent solution would be to have him step down, rather than to encourage an exodous from a perfectly good network.
But then, according to the Open Source naysayers, it's a standard Open Source tactic to fork a project rather than contribute to fixing it.
eggzactly =) LNUX (Score:-1) a -1??? And you guys call Bill "BORG" Gates.
The website is temporary from what I've heard. You can see from visiting the site that there isnt much up on there yet.
Unfortunately I dont have a log, although somebody probably does (I feel like a troll now, making claims with no evidence to back them up :). I can tell you that at one point he refused to answer questions, claiming that he was busy "eating the servers"
In any case, the background for the text on the page is white. Perhaps you should consider upgrading your browser - if you are using Netscape 4.xx, you should know that the Style Sheets support is quite broken.
It will be a better language with a better runtime (Parrot). Well, okay, you can debate the better language part, but Parrot will be slick.
No punt intended. But how can you "control" someting you put under GPL? You gave up all control. The only thing you still can consider to have is some kind of "meta control". If you liek to control your software or your IP GPL is surely only under raw circumstances the right thing.
I think the general gist of Stallman's comment isn't that you control the code, but that you're fully in charge of compiled code (software) on your own machine(s), versus the level of control one would supposedly have under a Microsoft-based software solution.
(BTW, did I include enough citations? I don't want to be accused of ripping anyone off)
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
I'm a bit confused about the name. They are mentioning that they make a webservice broker that can handle C# code. Or more general CLR compliant code. And also Java.
So in my understanding it's just a webservice broker. Where you have the freedom to use Java or CR compliant web service code.
So why stress the dot/i?
I cannot figure out what's so great about .NET and .CLONES of .NET.
Inter-process communication over the web? What is wrong with existing standards, such as HTTP Post and Get (et al)?
Seems like nothing but a plot to compete with an over-complicated mess, known as Java, by making a new different over-complicated mess.
Table-ized A.I.
The Palladium scheme can never work. This is another classic case of FUD from microsoft. The reason this will never work is that as soon as someone makes a chip that won't work with Linux or any other non-MS Operating System, everyone who buys this chip as a Linux box will have to return it to the store for something that "works" with Linux. Maybe then we'll switch to the PowerPC chip instead. Who knows. Motorola will make a killing in the chip market, and Intel and AMD will have to rethink their chip design.
Who moved my sig?
.NET technology is excellent! It is in many ways superior to java. Go mono!
datrus
Compare it to Java - the technolgy is weaker, it's more hardware consuming, it's one vendor (Sun) centric and it's against of integration with other languages. That's why java will never be naturally integrated in Linux/BSD open source environment. Java is a buble. With death of Internet buble Jave will begone as well.
it *stil* has me believing them..boy, i wish i could get paid upwards of even $50k in "donations" to be an irc network admin