Telemarketers and Cell Phones?

jjshoe asks: "I have received one bumbling voice mail from a woman who seemed very confused as to why I wasn't there, like her auto dialer transfered her call to my cellphone in time for my voice mail, one missed call, and one in which I actually talked to the woman. My concern is that this all costs me minutes, which of course equals money. What laws are out there for me? What bills are out there waiting to head their way towards becoming laws? What can I do to be compensated for time? After I screamed at the tele-marketer lady she said she would mark me as a wrong number, but I still don't believe this is enough." Considering most tele-marketers use auto-dialers, would it be so hard to grab the definitive list of area-code/extensions that are exclusively used for cellular phones and just apply that to their dial-out lists?

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette's website was the only site I could find that had any information on cellphones and solicitation.

Note the first question from 'JOHN PUHATCH':

Q: Regarding the sole use of wireless phones as an alternative to a land line connection, as I have done for nearly two years: You stated that tele-marketers do not call wireless phones. If only that were the case. Tele-marketing agencies have regularly contacted me on my cell phone concerning everything from vacation homes to long-distance service. My assumption is that these agencies secure my cell phone number by buying information from the plethora of forms and applications that require home telephone numbers but leave no place for a cell phone.

And the answer basically amounts to, although we do have some protections, we can still be screwed:

'A: [...]In short, John, you lost your chance at a telemarketing-free life when you filled out those forms with your phone number. May others learn from your mistake.'

Does anyone have any advice on things I can do to get these tele-marketers to stop calling on my cellphone?"

Most land-based phone companies allow anonymous-call blocks these days. Are there cellular phone companies doing anything similar?

Comments

telemarketers are good

[squarefish]

just ask this guy.

Don't answer

[sllort]

My cell phone is my only phone. When you have "home phone" as a required field on most order forms, you have to give out something. Then, later, someone calls to sell you a hotel vacation, or Viagra. You can tell them it's your cell phone, and ask them where you can bill them for your minutes, but they just hang up on you.

These days, I just don't answer blocked ID's, and my voicemail says so. You need a valid caller ID to call me. Yes, it's pathetic and sub-optimal, but it's the system our lawmakers have left us with. Pay to be harassed, or become unavailable.

Of course, I always buy the Viagra, so it's not that bad a deal.

Re:Don't answer

[dattaway]

You can tell them it's your cell phone, and ask them where you can bill them for your minutes, but they just hang up on you.

I did this. They didn't hang up. But I did find out it was FirstUSA who gave out my number. After telling them I wished to be put on their no call list, they told me it would be three months before that would take effect. I told them this was unacceptable.

I also learned that these no call lists are only valid for one year at which time they can opt me right back in. Nine months of no calls by that *one* company? It was a coincidence that I was over my airtime minutes that month and paid 25 cents a minute for that nonsense. No thanks.

I promptly cancelled my credit card and the calls still came rolling in. It was satisfying to tell them why I was cancelling my card. That didn't stop the calls either. My final solution was to change my phone number. Other companies know this is my "home" phone number, yet I haven't been getting calls since.

Re:Don't answer

[gid]

These days, I just don't answer blocked ID's, and my voicemail says so.

I'd love to do that, but unfortunately my sister's cell phone shows up as a "blocked id" she's in PIttsburgh w/ Nokia and I'm Gaithersburg, Maryland w/Sprint PCS. Kinda annoying, because if it weren't for that, I'd wouldn't answer blocked id's.

My current solution is once that I sniff that's it's a sales call, which usually takes me all of 2 seconds after noticing that no one greets with "hello" right away, because most sales calls are made by a machine that does dialing, once it determines that it's a person on the line, it passes the call to a human who does the talking, which can take a bit. Anyway I simply respond with "This is a cell phone, please don't call this number again".

For the above reason of how sales calls are placed I know some phone companies can give you a spam trap. Which basically means everytime someone calls you, the phone company takes the calls, asks the caller to press 1 to talk to a person, and then passes the call on to you. I had a friend who lives in Key West that had this feature, I wish more phone companies did, or maybe they do, and I just don't know.

Re:Don't answer

[1010011010]

The difference is that, cell phones are billed by the minute, and land lines are fixed-cost. You don't pay more to get a marketing call at home, but you do pay more to get one on a cell phone.

I would bill them for the minutes. If they refuse to identify themselves, report them immediately to your provider for making harassing calls, and demand to know who it was so that you can (1) bill them and (2) block them.

Another alternative: never answer your phone unless you recognize the number. Everyone else cal leave a message in your voicemail and get a call back.

I would like to see a PGP-type authentication system in phones, where you can elect to have people you know ring the phone and others not. You give a key or token to people you want to be able to call you, that uniquely identifies them to you. Their phone signals your phone with thay key.

I wouldn't mind seeing a law requiring caller-id on telemarketing calls, and accompanying hardware to automatically clock telemarketing calls. The phone companies can log EVERY call, so if there was a special code I could dial after getting an unwanted call -- *99 or something -- and the phone company logs it as such, that would be good, as well. I'd like to get a list of companies flagged on my bill each month.

Re:Don't answer

[slamb]

They lied. What they said contradicts the Telephone Consumer Protection Act.

First, to answer the poster of this story. The TCPA forbids calling at the callee's expense. From this page:

In addition to prohibiting charges to protect residential privacy, the TCPA and our rules prohibit calls that impose costs on the called party (e.g., calls to paging and cellular numbers, facsimile advertisements).

After telling them I wished to be put on their no call list, they told me it would be three months before that would take effect. I told them this was unacceptable.

As well you should. I do not believe the TCPA allows them any time whatsoever. If they hang up and immediately call back, that's their one allowed error for the next twelve months. After that, you can charge them $500 per call.

I also learned that these no call lists are only valid for one year at which time they can opt me right back in

That's not what the TCPA says. This page at the Direct Marketing Assocation says that telemarketers must:

# Maintain a "do not call list" and honor any request to not be called again. When such a request is received, the requester may not be called again on behalf of the business for whom the solicitation is made. One error is allowed in a twelve month period. Subsequently, the soliciting companies are subject to penalties. A person's name must be kept on the "do not call list" indefinitely.

I think the people who call just always try to weasel out of the terms and get you to agree. I try to be verify specific:

• I find out what company is calling me ("We're calling on behalf of Sprint..." "Yes, but what company do you work for?") and say they may not call me again. I keep track of that.
• I say "put me on your do-not-call list" rather than "take me off your list".
• If they say "it will take 30 days", I say "it had better not".

Actually, browsing that Junkbusters site, they have a script for you to keep by the telephone. Looks handy.

Junkbusters Telemarketing Tips

[akiy]

Some good information on decreasing the number of junk phone calls you get located here.

A magical phrase is, "Place me on your do not call list."

Re:Junkbusters Telemarketing Tips

[tim_m]

If you are Colorado, make sure you are on the Official Do Not Call list. A friend of mine in Colorado signed up for the list in January, and just checked his status after receiving a call that would have been a violation. To his dismay, the status page said he was on the *unofficial* list, and asked if he would like to be on the *official* list, which would then be effective on November first. As this all happened yesterday, he was not happy at having to wait so long when he had already signed up.

For anyone who doesn't know aboutt his, you can use the same url as in the followup (here), and re-enter your info and use the Verify button to check. Would be a good idea to make sure you're on the official list so you really stop getting the calls, and/or really have a case if you get calls again.

Redirecting home phones to mobiles.

[Saggi]

Even if you mask out mobile numbers for the auto diallers, several telecompanies are providing a combined service that will redirect you home phone to you mobile. In that case you will end up receiving the message on you mobile phone anyway.

In regards to time, I'll usually just say goodbye...

But time is an issue. Just think about spam, commercials, etc... but I believe it would only cloud up things if we should start making new laws. What about using existing laws about harassment.

Do not call list

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you can tell them to put you on a do not call list per telemarketer. Then, if that telemarketer calls you again, you can sue them in small claims court for your minutes and damages. Some skip tracing should help you find the offending company so that you can recover the money. It is even better if it is a local outfit calling you.

Re:Do not call list

[DNS-and-BIND]

Ah, naive faith in the legal system...how refreshing.

Good luck finding out who they are. Good luck finding out the correct address so you can serve them. Good luck getting a judgement, and even if you do have a judgement, good luck collecting even a single dollar from them.

Note also that this process is rather arduous, requires several inconvenient trips through traffic to the bad part of town where the courthouse always is, and many hours on your own time performing research, looking up the law, etc. Skip tracers don't work for free, either.

Could Be Worse

[peterdaly]

A guy I work with gets calls a few times a week (usually at odd hours, so he gets voicemail.) The calls usually are along the lines of "Hey this is -firstname- from -companyname-, the state says it is ok to dig. Thanks, seeya." When he does answer, the people don't seem to want to talk and tell him who they were expecting to get.

We to this day don't know who the callers are trying to get, but there sure are a lot of callers, and whoever is supposed to get the calls sure digs a lot of big holes.

Someone probably has a document in their customers hands with the wrong cellphone number on it. Makes for a good laugh every now and then.

-Pete

Re:Could Be Worse

[zulux]

A friend of mine had a phone number that was a two digit tranposition of a local Pizza Hut. When one of their stupider customers would call, he'd politly take their order, but would tell them that they coulden't deliver to their area as IT WAS FULL OF MAN EATING PIZZA MONSTERS. He'd then hang up.

Cash in!

[Chmarr]

According to the TCPA (Telephone Consumer Protection Act), it is illegal for a business to dial mobile phone numbers for unsolicited telemarketing. Unless there are some weird circumstances on how they got hold of your phone number, you've just earned yourself $500-$1500. Congratulations! You now just need to figure out how to claim it :)

A good resource for this kind of thing is Junkbusters

Best telemarketing call

[Anonymous Coward]

Me: Hello, Hello?
Telemarketer:Hello sir, I'm calling from [some bank name]. I'm offering credit cards at special low rate.
Me:Yeah, what cards are you offering?
Telemarketer:We offer AmEx, Visa, Mastercard, and Diners Club.
Me: Cool, put me down for all 4!
Telemarketer: Pause... Umm, we only give you the one with the best rate.
Me:Oh, Ok, put me down for all 4.
Telemarketer:Pause. Ok, sir, I just need you to answer a few questions... Is your household income over $1000.00 per month?
Me: Nope.
Telemarketer:Ok, um household is EVERYONE in the home. Is it less that $1000.00?
Me: Yep, we make around $750.00 per month.
Telemarketer: Is this Mr. Mike Douglas?
Me: Nope.
Telemarketer: Who is this?
Me: Who is this?
Telemarketer: My name is Mike Pringle.
Me: What are you selling?
Telemarketer: I'm offering credit cards. Who is this?
Me: This is Mike Pringles. I'm Offering you a low low rate credit card, would you be intrested?
Telemarketer hangs up.

Solid Gold!

Two words: caller pays

[_Quinn]

Not _all_ European ideas are bad ones. :)

-_Quinn

thats nothing...

[r00tarded]

wait till they start sending you SMS messages. its easy as hell to crapflood your phone with automated text messages.

It's a solved problem - USA just needs to catch up

[pommiekiwifruit]

In the UK:

• All cellphone numbers start with 07. Other ranges of numbers are reserved for various things. There was much disruption while the phone number for London changed from 01 to 071/081 to 0171/0181 to 020(7/8) though - a boon for all stationary reprinting companies :-)
• You can opt out of all junk phone calls by joining the Telephone Preference System. This applies to landlines as well as mobiles. If they ring you when you are on the TPS, you get medium large amounts of cash from them.
• You don't pay for receiving calls, unless you are out of the country and are on a roving tariff (in which case you pay the bill for calling from your home country to the country you are currently in). It seems absolutely crazy to charge to receive calls, as this would cause the penetration of mobiles to drop dramatically as it would exclude poor people (e.g. many teenagers). Generally people I know receive lots of calls, and then spend up to their limit of outgoing calls and wait until they get more money.

Introducing those changes should help you.

It IS illegal under the TCPA (for most plans)

[pthisis]

Telemarketing to a number where the recipient has to pay by the minute is illegal under the Telephone Consumer Protection Act. See the U.S. Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Part I, Sec 227.

I got rid of my land line 3 years ago in favor of a cell phone and haven't had a single telemarketing call since then. I'm pretty surprised that you have; they're liable for a $500 fine for each such call placed.

Sumner

The UK is different

[Albanach]

There are a number of reasons that we in the UK are protected from this.

• We don't pay for incoming calls. The result is the calling party pays the bill - and calling cell phones during the day can be expensive - circa 30p (40c) /min.
• We have a regulated scheme by which you can opt out of all telemarketing calls - the telephone preference service Click to sign up now. Companies calling numbers listed on the TPS face a 2000 GBP fine.

So you have two things to pursue. Campaign for the calling party to pay the cost of their call, and campaign for the government to legislate to make one country wide telemarketing opt-out list with fines for companies that ignore your request. Sadly I don't see either happening in the US any time soon.

"Put me on your do not call list."

[Futurepower(R)]

In the U.S., ask what company is calling. Then say "Put me on your do not call list." Say nothing more. That is very effective, since they can be sued in small claims court if they call back. Use exactly that language and nothing else, the sentence has legal meaning. This works perfectly for me.

Re:"Put me on your do not call list."

[Tackhead]

> In the U.S., ask what company is calling. Then say "Put me on your do not call list." Say nothing more. That is very effective, since they can be sued in small claims court if they call back. Use exactly that language and nothing else, the sentence has legal meaning. This works perfectly for me.

Although this has cut down on some of my phone spam volume, folks should be aware that:

1) It only has meaning for the telemarketing company that called you. When XYZ Phonespammers of Texas puts you on their DNC list, they can rename themselves to ABC Phonespammers of Texas.

2) It only has meaning for a year, then they can call you again.

Those of you lucky enough to have statewide do-not-call lists are in a somewhat better position, because all your state's telespammers are required to use it. Problem is...

3) ...your entry on the Colorado no-call list doesn't protect you from XYZ Telemarketing of Colorado opening up a call center and operating as XYZ Telemarketing of Nevada.

The only solution is a nationwide do-not-call list.

I know this solution will work because...

the DMA is scared shitless of it.

You don't have a lot of credibility, to be perfectly honest," Harrington, the FTC's director marketing practices, told the audience of approximately 50 telemarketers.

If telemarketers had adhered to the present rules, which give each company one shot at each consumer and require them to honor all DNC requests, a national DNC list would not be under discussion, Harrington said.

Am I just being paranoid? No - my experiences with telemarketers evading the current TCPA regs mirror those of Eileen Harrington - FTC's point-person on the do-not-call issue.

In her own personal experience, Harrington said, she was aware that telemarketers often try to circumvent the rules by hanging up when consumers ask to be placed on their DNC lists, or by denying that their calls are for sales purposes, then trying to make a sale. Technology, such as predictive dialers, is being abused, Harrington said.

Finally, in what were probably the first honest words to come out of a telemarketer's mouth in all of recorded history, we have this gem:

<WHINE> Eventually, everybody is going on the list," said Art Conway, president of DialAmerica Marketing. "If you create this national do-not-call list, the way you have it proposed, we're going out of business." </WHINE>

Hey, Art. Fuck off, and stay fucked off!

Re:"Put me on your do not call list."

[guttentag]

I typically do this, but one day I got a call from someone trying to sell me AT&T long distance. As usual, I said, "put me on your do not call list."

"All right," she said, "I just need your name."

"You don't need my name. You just need to put the phone number you just called on your do not call list, as required by law."

"I can't put you on the do not call list unless you give me your name, address, phone number, email address and answer a few questions about why you don't want to save money with us."

So I told her my name was John, I live at 123 Main Street, and my email address is abuse@yahoo.com. At that point she hung up on me. Someone else called from AT&T the next day, looking to sell long distance. I told him about the ordeal I went through the day before, and he promptly hung up.

Ever since then I just put them on hold whenever they call. "Yeah, I'm really thinking about switching my long distance, because I make so many calls and my bill is so huge. Can you hold on for a minute?" Five minutes later: "Hi, you still there? So what was it you said you were offering? Uh huh. Oh, hold on a sec, it's my call waiting." And then I leave them on hold for about an hour before hanging up.

My roommate prefers to waste his time driving them crazy. He'll wait for his turn to speak, pick some abstract word, like "Cheese" and stick with it.

"So how are you doing today, sir?"

"Cheese."

"I'm sorry, I didn't catch that."

"Cheese."

"Um... OK. I'm calling from AT&T and we thought you might like to take advantage of the opportunity to save some money on your long distance bill."

"Cheese."

Re:"Put me on your do not call list."

[dghcasp]

Heh.

When I was a young, pimply faced pre-adult (as opposed to now, when I'm a middle aged pimply faced childish-adult,) the only jobs I could get were with telephone soliciting companies.

Now this was in the days before (a) do-not-call lists, (b) war-dialers and (c) calling-line ID. We worked from pages torn from the local phone book, holding our heavy 2500 set phones uncomfortably to our ears as we vainly tried to sell whatever warez we were pushing for minimum wage.

People didn't scream at us that much in those days, but you always got a few who did. When it happened, you made a "stress relief" call, to one of your carefully collected list of numbers of people who were either (a) always drunk, or (b) never home and had answering machines.

My favourite was leaving messages that their moose was sick and they'd better get down to the vet's office soon before it died. The next day, you'd leave another message, saying the moose was dead and "confirming" their name & address to send the large bill for the funeral to... and leaving as a phone number that of a pizza store.

Ah, fourteen...

Re:"Put me on your do not call list."

[Steve G Swine]

One of my finest moments was getting a call from Sprint offering to change my long distance service.

"I'm sorry, I don't have a phone."

(pause, pause, pause) "Then how am I talking to you?"

"I'm... not really sure."

(pause, pause, pause) "Thank you." {click}

Re:Has anyone tried TeleZapper?

[stoolpigeon]

Let me start w/a disclaimer. I am not a telemarketer. I do run a predictive dialer but we are using it to call people who owe us money. If they pay their bills I do not bother them. If you don't do business w/my company, or keep your account current you will never hear from me.

The TeleZapper is a neat idea- I wish I would have thought of it. I would think it is helpful in limiting telemarketers but probably not a 100% solution. There are a couple reasons.

The first is that when the TeleZapper sends its little chunk of a SIT tone to the dialer it means that that dialer will mark your number as out of service. That dialer will most likely not call you again during that day. (This may not be true though depending on how the dialer is set up.) Whether or not you get updated in that company database depends on whether or not that company even has a database. And when do they update the dialer's results.
I do jobs for clients where there is never any storage of bad results from my dialer. We handle way too much volume to bother with it.

If they do keep a database to cull out bad results then this company may stop calling you altogether. But if you are on other lists w/other companies then they may keep calling. You should get the picture.

The second main reason it cannot stop all telemarketers is that it does not work on all dialers. (specifically a Mosaix dialer like the one that I run) The telezapper does not send out the whole SIT tone, just the first part. For some dialers this is enough. (Davox is one I've been told) But our dialer will just hang in there since the whole tone doesn't come across the line. (and remember it doesn't send the tone until you or your answering machine pick up the line.-- your phone still rings- you pick it up and hear the tone and if it is effective noone is there. It's just you going hello? hello?)

It's cheap and I've considered buying one. I think any reduction in telemarketing calls is pretty good. So I'm not trying to slam the product but the ads are somewhat optimistic in what the product can do (can't blame 'em there)

.

Re:Has anyone tried TeleZapper?

[elfkicker]

When I moved a year ago and got a new number, i was amazed my how many telemarketing calls I was getting. Working at home, perhaps I just noticed it more, but it was at least 3 calls a day.

To see if the telezapper might work, I recorded the SIT tone onto my answering machine before my message and lowered the ring count to 2 rings for a month. Screened all calls. Now I recieve maybe one a week. I don't think I want that tone every single time I answer the phone, so I just keep in on my answering machine and bumped the ring count back to 4.

I highly recommend doing this if they are driving you nuts. Here's a .wav of the SIT tone.

Re:Sounds like a problem waiting to happen

[BorgDrone]

Don't you have that "crazy" per-minute charge for local calls on your land lines? We don't here.

Yes we do, but I don't ever use land lines. can't remember the last time I did, almost everyone has got a cellphone. the local university here even hands out cellphones to all students, no monthly charge and 100 minutes free calls per month.

I myself pay 9 euro per month, including 40 minutes free calls, and I never ever exceeded those 40 minutes. for me , a cellphone is cheaper then a land line (which cost more per month, excluding calls).

so yes, land lines are charged per minute (per second actually) , do I care ? no!

Witty banter w/ telemarketers

[Bistronaut]

A buddy of mine comes up with some good anti-telemarketer lines. A couple of weeks ago he was called up by someone hocking the local paper.

Telemarketer: Hello, would you like to recieve the [local paper]?
Guy: I... can't read.
[pause]
Telemarketer: At all?

Re:Sounds like a problem waiting to happen

[Qube]

And what happens when you run out of 07 numbers? Don't tell me "it'll never happen".

They get longer. UK numbers have grown a couple of digits in the last few years, when they run out of numberspace I'm sure they'll do the same thing again.

Same principle applies to things charged at different rates to normal - special rates are put on 08 (like 0800 - free, 0845 - local rate whereever you're calling from and 0870 - national rate). Premium rate is all dumped on 09 - the £1 a minute "advice" lines and the like.

A lot of upheaval, but it makes sense. It was getting silly 5 or 6 years ago with different blocks of numbers being allocated for mobiles and premium rate services seemingly at random and without any way of knowing the cost beforehand if it wasn't stated.

Don't you have that "crazy" per-minute charge for local calls on your land lines? We don't here. Anyway, there's so many minutes included with my calling plan that I've never paid an extra charge.

Not for a while now. The most basic package has a low cost of line rental with all calls paid for by the minute, but there are lots of other options. Pay about £1.50/month more and you get 4 hours of calls included. Pay about £5/month more and you don't pay for local calls. Pay £8.50 a month more and you don't pay for local or national. To avoid dialup ISP charges, you can pay another £5 or so per month.

All pretty flexible. My ISDN package comes with £14 worth of calls a month - I rarely go over that. BT suck on their pricing and availability of broadband, but we're not quite stuck in the dark ages :)

Re:It's a solved problem - USA just needs to catch

[PaxTech]

If they ring you when you are on the TPS, you get medium large amounts of cash from them.

Ah, so that's why we're putting new cover sheets on our TPS reports!

DNC List Rules.

[ImaLamer]

First things first.

You must prove they called you on purpose. The burden of proof is on you. It isn't like you get that second call and viola! you get a check. There is court time involved.

You must also ask to speak with a supervisor. If a non-supervisor talks to you claiming they are a super that is good enough for you - you have no way of knowing. But you have the right to request a supervisors help, and you you must in order to guarantee you will win your case.

While working for the local "Enquirer" newspaper here in "Cincinnati" [hint hint], I learned that when a sales rep takes your number down to be put on the DNC list they can legally just throw them away because sales reps are known to screw up the process. You won't win in court claiming "well John promised me..."

Also some other tips:
The caller won't give you their full name. They don't have to because they have the same right to privacy that you enjoy (remember, it's the company that insists on calling you - they just want to get paid).

The FTC has strict rules against cursing on the phone. You can yell at them and say what you want, but they have to show restraint or you can win up to $10,000 dollars, sometimes more.

Lastly: It's bad business to call cell phones - how can you even tell if they want your product ;-)

We had special lists which help pager and cell numbers- we ran it across our main lists to remove them. That is the only good thing we did there.

The best thing was when I got an auto-dial number which for some reason just had a local TV station's audio play 24/7. It was great to listen to TV while not doing anything.

Adventures in Telemarketing

[Keev]

On two separate occasions, I've gotten calls from telemarketers... while riding in an elevator! This wasn't on a cell phone. It was the little elevator emergency phone.

Me: (after some looking to see where the ringing was coming from, opening the little door, and picking up) Um... Hello?

Telemarketer: Good afternoon. This is the Seattle Times we have a very special...

Me: Do you realize you've reached an elevator?

Telemarketer: (puzzled pause) Uh...Sir, let me check if we have your correct address...

Me: It's the 17th floor.. no wait.. the 18th.. no, wait.. now it's the 19th...

(And so on)

Apparently some office building are rigged so that even the elevator extensions have direct-dial...