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Black Boxes to Track Driving Habits?
Another submitter sent in a related submission about the collision data recorders in many late-model cars - which serve a similar purpose as the black boxes described above, but generally only record the last five seconds before an accident.
geemon writes "With the recent stories of rental car companies using GPS to track how and where their patrons are using their vehicles, this information about autos from 1996 and newer having an airplane-like accident "black box" capability was a complete surprise. Tucked under the drivers seat of most GM vehicles, the "black box" can store a variety of info such as vehicle and engine speed, braking, and seat belt usage. Info from an accident reconstruction service that uses this data can be found here. Called "event data recorders", these devices were, "...Originally designed to improve air bag performance based on the severity of the collision, the event data recorder can tell traffic accident investigators about the car's speed; engine RPMs; how far the accelerator pedal was pressed; if the brakes were applied; whether the drivers seatbelt was buckled and what warning lights were on - all from five seconds before impact..." It seems that GM and perhaps Ford have been using this for some time. Here is one company that makes the Windows based retrieval hardware/software combo for $2500. Imagine the uses of this data that law enforcement, your insurance company, and lawyers may have after your next little mishap."
If you are in an accident and the other party's insurance company takes the vehicle, they will check the black box to try to shift the liability from their client onto you.
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Everything in the Universe sucks: It's the law!
Larry Selditz will begin selling a teenager's worst nightmare in November - a small black box placed in a car that allows parents to track exactly how their child is driving on the highways.
No. A teenager's worst nightmare would be a little black box that reports their "parking" *winkwink* habits, not driving.
,
faeryman
So, how long before the insurance companies persuade the states to mandate these devices in every car? Or raise our rates hugely and then give a little of it back if we put in the box?
e phone tin-foil hat paranoia for just a day or two? This kind of sensationalizing gets really old when every single piece of technology is just another tool for The Man to spy on us, regardless of legitimate uses (sound familiar?) it might have.
Can we stop with the black-helicopters-are-watching-me-through-the-tel
First, either kids or criminals. Then whichever of the first two wasn't gotten. Then, those who'll accept extra benefits for it (generally implemented by removing said pre-existing benefits and then only giving what you had before back if you submit.)
Finally, it's mandatory.
This is the time to oppose this stuff and set limits if there will ever be any at all.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
My Parents:"Collin...Why is it that you seem to slow down when driving by large buildings and stop for short periods of time in the parking lots of large corporations"
forget it.
[listening to silence]... Do I hear any outcries? No.
Americans will swallow this just like pervasive credit history control, mandatory live long ID numbers (hello, Soviet Union), "Under GOD!" daily pledges (fuck those atheists), Id check, face recognition, mandatory 10-day address registration for all non-citizens.. and list goes on and on..
Losers.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
People who disagree can use public transportation. Hopefully, mass transit will get a much needed boost because of people who are unwilling to be tracked.
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I swear this isn't a brand-spanking-new thing.
I remember seeing a "consumer report" on 20/20 (or a similar newsprogram) about this device being put in new cars without the knowledge of the buyers. It was also illegal to remove it.
Anyone have any better memory than I and can provide more detail?
With the "Last 5 second" black box I don't see much of a threat to privacy. It isn't like they're tracking where you're going or keeping tabs of any driving habits, and its certainly not reporting anything back to anyone without actual physical contact. Since you own the car (and thus the black box) I would assume that if anyone did want to get ahold of it against your will they would have to get a court order.
Frankly I'd like to have one of these babies in my car. It would remove a lot of uncertainty around what caused an accident: ("As you can see Judge, I was indeed stopped and my brake lights were working when the idiot rear ended me")
After it's installed how hard is it to take out and leave somewhere?
Johnny pulls in the drive way after coming from a techno drug laden rave fest...
"Johnny, as your parents we're starting to become concerned about you..."
"W..What do you mean?"
"Well according to our black box, you've been spending 7 hours a night at the movies."
"Oh, uh.. right. Ya, uh.. I admit it, I'm a movie junkie."
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
I can understand why black boxes are in airplanes - its a huge liability issue. The more info gathered on crashes that do happen may reduce the chances of paying customers dying in the future. It makes good sense from a PR point of view. However, I would contend that black boxes in cars would do little to alleviate motor vehicle related deaths. We know *why* people crash: Many drivers are goddamned morons. We know that many teens are goddamned morons on the road as well - we don't need a black box to tell us that. Rather than putting these black boxes in cars to spy on our teens, we need to deal with the cause, not the symptoms: bad teen driving comes from a combination of outside pressure, overconfidence and under-training. For heavens sake - invest the money in teen driving training instead of these boxes! And parents, do us ALL a favour: Stop buying your children these expensive rockets on wheels!! Make them get a job to buy their OWN vehicle - it'll make them think twice before doing anything stupid that might wreck it.
In the real world, nobody ever drives the speed limit under good driving conditions. Realistic freeway speeds are at least 80 in nondeveloped areas, and cars going under that speed are actually at increased risk.
Besides, nothing like this will ever stop the experimentation kids do in cars. In my younger days, I did donuts in the empty church parking lot, caught air on the Spooner St. bridge, drove my car over a lawn or two, etc. No excessive speed involved (you'd jump Spooner doing 35).
IMO, your best bet is to buy your kid a fairly modern, safe car without too much extra juice (try a Toyota with side-curtain airbags with traction control and ABS, or a Volvo if it's in your means) -- buying kids old cars is actually more dangerous due to the lack of modern safety gear. Those parents buying their kids Z3's... well, that's just natural selection at work.
Base lesson: No good ever came of spying on your kids and making it clear you don't have any trust for them.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Insurance companies could care less about where you drive, but they are definitely be interested in knowing when you are on the road and for how long. The more time you spend unparked increases your odds of having an accident. That's why they rate older drivers better, because their 25' Buicks spend most of the time parked. Driving at night significantly increases your risk of having an accident. It astronomically increases your risk of having an accident with (or as) a drunk driver. How do I know this? I used to be an underwriter for an auto insurance company...
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.
I used to commute on CA-17, which connects Silicon Valley with Santa Cruz. It's always full of people who think nothing of driving 80 mph on a windy mountain road, who think anybody who observes the speed limit is doing it just to piss them off, and who basically exhibit behavior that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere except on the highway.
And that's what it's all about, isn't it? Communication. One reason people love their cars is that it's the one place they don't have to listen to anybody. Unfortunately, lots of people abuse this solitude. If you behaved, say, in a line at McDonalds the same way people behave on Highway 17, people would communicate a lot of anger to you. (That kind of communication while driving is known as "road rage".) Attempts have been made to communicate to the over-assertive driver. With results even -- whenever the CHP ups its presence on 17 the death rate goes way down. But the concept communicated is not "speed kills" but rather "be a good little boy when daddy's watching."
If some people end up getting supervised because they think good behavior is just a game, they've only themselves to blame.
I have a friend whose mother was waiting at a red light, when another vehicle backed out of a drive way and into her car pretty hard. When the police came, the driver of the other vehicle had the audacity to claim that my friend's mother actually backed into him and tried to pin the fault of the accident on her.
Fortunately, a person who saw this happen hanged around until the police came and was able to refute the other driver's fabrication.
If the car had a black box, the police officer could have quickly determined that my friend's mother's car was stationary up till the moment of impact regardless of whether a nice person did or did not loiter around at the crash scene.
Granted, people might complain about details such as the car's location and a log of speeds. These issues can be solved by convincing law makers to dictate a standard set of statistics said auto boxes would record.
I have a webcam. I put it on the floor so I can watch my dog all day while I'm at work. I do it because it helps me keep an eye on her, it's fun, other people like it too, and it hurts nobody.
When I have kids (God permitting), I may consider putting the webcam on the baby's crib. It would be fun, other people would like it, it would be a good way to keep an eye on the baby when nobody is with him/her for whatever reason, and it would hurt nobody.
Once that kid starts moving around, and growing up into a person, I would *NEVER* subject my children to that kind of oversight. I can imagine it would be VERY detrimental to their social life. Children need to live lives seperate from their parents. God knows there are things I've done (and still do) that my parents don't need to know. I'm sure my kids will do the same, and I don't want know about it (as long as they aren't hurting themselves or others).
You *NEED* some privacy in your life. I will NEVER vote for somebody who supports making something like this mandatory (and I hope my stubborn side will continue to keep this true, even as I grow old and raise kids of my own).
Bryan
Having a lot of data is a good thing when reconstructing accidents. Being able to determine exactly what the driver was doing to the car will help to distinguish between skids where the driver was making it worse, skids where the driver didn't do much to help, and skids where the driver was doing the right thing and didn't recover control in time, all of which can leave about the same evidence on the road and car.
It's not useful to know everything the driver normally does without having the road conditions in extensive detail. There's no way the box is going to be able to tell what a safe speed is, whether someone is driving erraticly in response to other cars and pedestrians. Someone driving slowly could be driving in fog, following a bicycle, in traffic, reading signs and ignoring the road, or just stoned.
This data is only really useful in conjunction with scene evidence and other witnesses (except that you could easily tell where the kid took the car and when). You can't really use it to measure driving skill.
No you don't own the car - or rather, you won't in a moment.
Having been in a crash that totaled my vehicle (gotta love people who turn left in front of you without looking) I can tell you what happens:
After the police and reporting nonsense your vehicle (or parts remaining of) go to a garage or adjusters location to be assessed. Once assessed the insurance company will tell you how much they will give you for it.
Here's the catch: They are buying the car off you.
When you go to collect your $ you sign and turn over the ownership, giving the insurance company total ownership. They are now free to do what they will with it... including checking the "black box".
So if you're car is totaled you might want to pull the box if you can. Mind you, they might have a few questions for you about where it went.
"They do not preach that their god will rouse them, a little before the Nuts work loose." Kipling, 'The Sons of Martha'
And the version included a cabin sound recorder to capture the last few seconds of activity before impact.
Usually people said, "Oh shit!" some, occasionally you'd hear snoring, but they did find a disturbing trend.
On large 4x4's in the deep south, the last thing said was "Ya'll hold my beer and watch this."
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
It monitors speed (how fast they were driing), seat belt status (if they had the seat belts buckled), how many people were in the car (pressure-sensitive switches in the seats), and can be configured remotely by the parents--I don't have kids myself (only 22), but it's a great 'rule enforcer' for kids who have broken their parents trust when it comes to driving, but situations (e.g., school, work, etc) prevent the parent from totally acting the 'take the keys away and lock the doors' approach for punishment.
We have some companies who use these in their fleet vehicles or secondary finance market vehicles so they can look online and see where their cars are, prevent the cars from starting, see how many people have been riding with the driver, and send/receive text messages to/from the driver.
We market the product as informational use only, but people are using it in a Big Brother kind of sense. That bugs me--but that's another story for another day.
I disable sigs...do you?
"Eleven of the 45 companies that build passenger cars worldwide already use some kind of black-box technology, according to representatives of the IEEE. The best-known of those is General Motors Corp., which said three years ago that it includes the device, known as a sensing and diagnostics module, as part of its airbag sensing systems on most GM vehicles. The module can store such information as engine speed, vehicle speed, airbag deployment, seat belt deployment and the state of the brakes before and during an accident. "
Some vehicles, especially those manufactured during the mid to late 90's already have a black box that *they* neglected to tell us about. If you're curious, its normally located beneath the driver's seat. From what I understand of the hidden black box, is that it only stores retains driving information for a few seconds, but stops recording when a serious event occurs, such as an airbag sensor being triggered. The concept is that law enforcement would then be able to use the black box data to make critical determinations in accident investigations, such as speed, braking, etc.
I'm not 100% sure about why these weren't put into widespread use, but I believe the necessary laws have not been passed, so law enforcement is unable to use the data. Not all vehicles have been equipped.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
a few years ago, let's say 1997-8 or so. I would have made my company go bankrupt quicker!
E EE IIIIIIII
*This is a tale of dot com glutony*
I was working for a small startup with a good amount of capitol. I was averaging a trip a week down to our LA office to deal with all the windows problems. (Remote wasn't possible, the CTO thought that running HIZ software through a firewall/Router/Tunnel would make it run bad)
Anyways aside from the problem of having a lunatic for a CTO my main issue was making sure that if the LA office needed me that week that they arranged all travel.
Well sometimes things were forgotten, and one week they forgot to rent my car for me. I was in the burbank airport, at the budget rent a car counter...
"Mr. Toqer we're sorry but we have no reservations for you!"
"Awe fuck, they slipped upped again" I muttered to myself. "Ok then what do you have left??
"We have a 1998 Convertable Jaguar XK8!" Oooh my pulse quickened, I was going to be there 3 days, sportin that ride in LA would be tits! So I called my CEO to see if it would be ok.
"Yo, CEO, your office manager forgot to reserve my car AGAIN! All the other rental places are out of cars and all thats left is a Jaguar Xk8"
"How much?"
"$350@day"
"Do it! I want to see you here in 30 minutes!"
Man, what a rush. I had never, and I mean NEVER EVER driven a car that fast in my life. I hopped on the 405?? and headed towards Thousand Oaks. I put the pedal to the medal and I felt like I was the millenium falcon going into hyperdrive! It went from 0 to 110 in no time flat.
Well towards the end of my trip I thought i'd go see the sunset strip by myself. I wanted to see the viper room where river phonix died (favorite actor, stand by me, ect) I made it a point to have a beer at about 9 of the joints on the strip. Fully loaded with a buzz I hopped back on the 101 to thousand oaks.
I look back now, it's not that funny. I really could have hurt myself, or some innocent bystander. 25, young dumb and full of cum.
Well, not really an exciting end to this post, just that I somehow managed to make it back to my hotel without wrecking or getting pulled over. Next day I handed the keys back and swore I would never drive anything over a "econo class" again. I'm not sure I can responsibilly handle that much power.
PUNCH IT CHEWIE
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAE
--toq
The government has successfully brainwashed you into believing that driving is a privilege they may bestow or take away. In reality, with public transportation unservicable in much of the US, driving is an absolute necessity for one's day to day life. It is no more a "privilege" than the "privilege" of food and water.
Sure, you have a right to drive. However, if you'd like to drive on public streets and highways with the rest of us, that is very much a priveledge. A privledge earned through drivers training and testing. You play by the rules so that you don't get the rest of us killed. If you don't and your license is pulled, you need to look into alternative forms of transportation. Bike, walk, whatever. Not my problem. But you have no inalienable _right_ to drive. You have a right not to be discriminated against in the assignment of this privledge, but of you're pulling DUIs or too many speeding tickets, or can't see sufficiently well to pass the driving test - No license for you.
Why?
That is just such a load.
Open your newspaper up some time. You'll find that there are more accidents involving teenagers than you think. When mommy and daddy stop paying for the insurance you may discover this as well. Especially if you're unfortunate enough to purchase the same model of car that parents give to their irresponsible teenagers when they turn 16; your insurance rates will take your breath away.
I've been driving for thirty years with no moving violations but have had two accidents: both caused by teenagers. (Rear-ended at a red stop light by a seventeen year old doing 40 and broadsided a sixteen year old who didn't look for oncoming traffic and pulled right out into traffic from a stop sign.)
No.
The accidents are then caused by idiots who think that their time is so important that everyone else should just pull off the road until these very important people pass. But when nobody clears the road for them, they begin weaving in and out of traffic and creating a very dangerous situation. George Carlin had a great suggestion for such people: ``Leave earlier!'' (I know a cop you told me a story once with a guy that he pulled over for driving like a foot off someone's rear bumber, eventually passing the front car in a no passing zone, and in a school zone to boot. He argued with the cop, insisting that the posted speed limit was the minimum speed that you were supposed to be driving and that the driver in the other car should have been getting a ticket. The driver who did get the three tickets was nineteen. Hee hee.)
Much of what you see on the roads nowadays would, at one time, earn you a reckless driving citation and possibly the opportunity to lose your license altogether. Perhaps its time they started enforcing those laws once again. I only have a 25 minute commute to work and I manage to see a lot of boneheaded drivers. The vast majority are teenagers and not senior citizens.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
first, every teen that drives like a jerk/idiot I can show you EXACTLY where they got that habit.
Their parents. If a child grows up watching daddy tailgate that little Kia in his big-bad yukon while trash talking, "Man this asshole is doing the speed-limit.. I wish I could just push him out of the way" or watches mommie floor it up to the barrels and arrow-board in a construction area and FORCES her way in to the merged traffic at the last second..
This is how these teens that drive like idiots and morons get their driving habits... from the idiots and morons that had and raised them.
And being a regular commuter..The numbers of drivers that drive like idiots and morons is increasing..
I dont think the parents should be black-boxing the kids... it should be the state, and pull their drivers license until 25 if the box reports idiot driving.... But then I also believe that the driving test/license requirements should be quadrupled, as with giving 50% of the traffic fines to the officer as an incentive to enforce traffic laws.
too many people are content with driving like morons, and they are breeding more morons for the roads.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
We've got uber spygear in cars now...it's only a matter of time before the insurance guys and their lobbyists pressure the auto industry and congress to mandate cars that can't break the law. Imagine, cars that won't go over the speed limit (based on GPS and databases of local speed limits); cars that won't start if your seatbelt isn't buckled, or if you've blown a high blood-alcohol content. How about cars that won't allow you to turn your steering wheel unless you've signaled first???
Hell, why don't we just outlaw the damn things right now and force people to use public transportation....freedom be damned.
Uggh....now i'm starting to sound like Stallman.
-ted
I don't think any age is better or worse than any other
. The group made up of 16-year-olds are also shown to have a fatal accident rate of 42 per 100 million vehicle miles traveled, compared to the average of two for ages 30-50. I'd say there's a sharp difference between age groups.
According to the California Office of Traffic Safety, drivers aged 15-20 made up 6.3% of the population, but were involved in 12.5% of the injury and fatality collisions (http://www.ots.ca.gov/campaign/youthq/brief.asp)
Unlike some places, our insurance here varies only on driving record (licence goes up by $25 every bad thing you do, car never goes up) which is the way is should be.
Your mention of SK means, I presume, Saskatchewan, suggesting that Canada is your home. Canadian insurance laws seem quite different from American insurance laws. I'm anxious for next summer to come around so I reach the three-year point when the collision on my record -- my fault -- comes off. The settlement was for $10,000, and my rates got boosted by about $450 a year, meaning that they get $1350 for me costing them $10K, not to mention whatever other incidental costs are there. Of course, I've been paying my insurance company between $1200 and $2100 a year, depending on what I've been driving, whether I have a collision on my record, and my age group, so I guess it's fair. But I have no moving violations, and the two accidents have been relatively minor. I'm an odd exception to the rule.
My dad is even further off. He's been driving for 30 years, and has never had a moving violation or been in a single accident. He's come close, but never had one. Luck and skill. My middle brother, OTOH, is 25 and has four speeding tickets and three collisions, one of which resulted in the totaling of two relatively young cars cars and a six-month suspended license. I've seen his insurance bill, and it's not pretty. But it is simple statistics. Between the two extremes of my dad and his spotless record, and my brother, lies me. I see those, and I understand why the numbers on my insurance bill look as they do.
Canada has fewer people, generally a little more spread out than the United States, so the insurance laws and rates will be different. I know people who live in places where there's only a single paved road through town, and they pay less than half of what I do. They have lower chances of an accident. I drive the highways of Southern California, meaning I take risks whether it's my foot on the floor or not (usually not, but sometimes...). Part of living in the place I choose.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
{rant}
This little device doesnt teach them proper driving. I mean since when has coming to a complete stop at every stop sign made someone a better driver? Never, its the concious, logical thought that goes into driving. A good driver does not neccisarily follow the rules. "Obey the law but dont let it rule you." What does it matter if I come to a complete stop at every stop sign if no one is there? They need to learn how to use their brain! Not become little socially controlled automatons who learn to obey the "black box" without thinking. This program isnt making good drivers, its making nice little tax paying, go exactly the speed limit, good citizen sheep that vote the way N'Sync tells them to.
When i was young, my mother never went through my drawers looking for pot, spying on my habits to protect me from myself. She would never resort to installing filters on our computer to make sure i wasnt looking at how to make bombs. Invading your childs privacy and forcing them to act like there is a camera over their shoulder is not the way to make sure they dont hurt themselves. What people do in front of a camera is different from what they do in private. Fear of consequences is not a substitute for morals. This "black box" is just another way for parents to invade their childrens privacy.
This is just another step towards Hilary Clintons "It takes a Village" perfect world for raising children.
{/rant}
-blar
"Hey son, I went to check on your driving last night and that damn box didn't work! Can you explain?"
"Yeah, I accidentally poured my beer into it while driving. Sorry about that. Guess they won't replace that under warranty."
Repeat until parent is broke. Or you have to get your own car.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.