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Black Boxes to Track Driving Habits?
Another submitter sent in a related submission about the collision data recorders in many late-model cars - which serve a similar purpose as the black boxes described above, but generally only record the last five seconds before an accident.
geemon writes "With the recent stories of rental car companies using GPS to track how and where their patrons are using their vehicles, this information about autos from 1996 and newer having an airplane-like accident "black box" capability was a complete surprise. Tucked under the drivers seat of most GM vehicles, the "black box" can store a variety of info such as vehicle and engine speed, braking, and seat belt usage. Info from an accident reconstruction service that uses this data can be found here. Called "event data recorders", these devices were, "...Originally designed to improve air bag performance based on the severity of the collision, the event data recorder can tell traffic accident investigators about the car's speed; engine RPMs; how far the accelerator pedal was pressed; if the brakes were applied; whether the drivers seatbelt was buckled and what warning lights were on - all from five seconds before impact..." It seems that GM and perhaps Ford have been using this for some time. Here is one company that makes the Windows based retrieval hardware/software combo for $2500. Imagine the uses of this data that law enforcement, your insurance company, and lawyers may have after your next little mishap."
If you are in an accident and the other party's insurance company takes the vehicle, they will check the black box to try to shift the liability from their client onto you.
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Everything in the Universe sucks: It's the law!
Larry Selditz will begin selling a teenager's worst nightmare in November - a small black box placed in a car that allows parents to track exactly how their child is driving on the highways.
No. A teenager's worst nightmare would be a little black box that reports their "parking" *winkwink* habits, not driving.
,
faeryman
So, how long before the insurance companies persuade the states to mandate these devices in every car? Or raise our rates hugely and then give a little of it back if we put in the box?
e phone tin-foil hat paranoia for just a day or two? This kind of sensationalizing gets really old when every single piece of technology is just another tool for The Man to spy on us, regardless of legitimate uses (sound familiar?) it might have.
Can we stop with the black-helicopters-are-watching-me-through-the-tel
First, either kids or criminals. Then whichever of the first two wasn't gotten. Then, those who'll accept extra benefits for it (generally implemented by removing said pre-existing benefits and then only giving what you had before back if you submit.)
Finally, it's mandatory.
This is the time to oppose this stuff and set limits if there will ever be any at all.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
My Parents:"Collin...Why is it that you seem to slow down when driving by large buildings and stop for short periods of time in the parking lots of large corporations"
forget it.
[listening to silence]... Do I hear any outcries? No.
Americans will swallow this just like pervasive credit history control, mandatory live long ID numbers (hello, Soviet Union), "Under GOD!" daily pledges (fuck those atheists), Id check, face recognition, mandatory 10-day address registration for all non-citizens.. and list goes on and on..
Losers.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
People who disagree can use public transportation. Hopefully, mass transit will get a much needed boost because of people who are unwilling to be tracked.
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I swear this isn't a brand-spanking-new thing.
I remember seeing a "consumer report" on 20/20 (or a similar newsprogram) about this device being put in new cars without the knowledge of the buyers. It was also illegal to remove it.
Anyone have any better memory than I and can provide more detail?
With the "Last 5 second" black box I don't see much of a threat to privacy. It isn't like they're tracking where you're going or keeping tabs of any driving habits, and its certainly not reporting anything back to anyone without actual physical contact. Since you own the car (and thus the black box) I would assume that if anyone did want to get ahold of it against your will they would have to get a court order.
Frankly I'd like to have one of these babies in my car. It would remove a lot of uncertainty around what caused an accident: ("As you can see Judge, I was indeed stopped and my brake lights were working when the idiot rear ended me")
But I suspect that most people, like the people who live in Alaska, will just stop paying insurance rates.
Seriously. People in Alaska get into accidents, and then they don't fix their car. Every other car on the road has a big dent in it.
After it's installed how hard is it to take out and leave somewhere?
Johnny pulls in the drive way after coming from a techno drug laden rave fest...
"Johnny, as your parents we're starting to become concerned about you..."
"W..What do you mean?"
"Well according to our black box, you've been spending 7 hours a night at the movies."
"Oh, uh.. right. Ya, uh.. I admit it, I'm a movie junkie."
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Now I don't think this technology is a good idea, but comeon.
This has NOTHING to do with the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, nor does it have anything to do with the Articles of Confederation or Decleration of Independance.
You might be disillustioned, but try to keep this in context.
It's about technology working for the insurance companies and the police, not about civil rights.
I can understand why black boxes are in airplanes - its a huge liability issue. The more info gathered on crashes that do happen may reduce the chances of paying customers dying in the future. It makes good sense from a PR point of view. However, I would contend that black boxes in cars would do little to alleviate motor vehicle related deaths. We know *why* people crash: Many drivers are goddamned morons. We know that many teens are goddamned morons on the road as well - we don't need a black box to tell us that. Rather than putting these black boxes in cars to spy on our teens, we need to deal with the cause, not the symptoms: bad teen driving comes from a combination of outside pressure, overconfidence and under-training. For heavens sake - invest the money in teen driving training instead of these boxes! And parents, do us ALL a favour: Stop buying your children these expensive rockets on wheels!! Make them get a job to buy their OWN vehicle - it'll make them think twice before doing anything stupid that might wreck it.
In the real world, nobody ever drives the speed limit under good driving conditions. Realistic freeway speeds are at least 80 in nondeveloped areas, and cars going under that speed are actually at increased risk.
Besides, nothing like this will ever stop the experimentation kids do in cars. In my younger days, I did donuts in the empty church parking lot, caught air on the Spooner St. bridge, drove my car over a lawn or two, etc. No excessive speed involved (you'd jump Spooner doing 35).
IMO, your best bet is to buy your kid a fairly modern, safe car without too much extra juice (try a Toyota with side-curtain airbags with traction control and ABS, or a Volvo if it's in your means) -- buying kids old cars is actually more dangerous due to the lack of modern safety gear. Those parents buying their kids Z3's... well, that's just natural selection at work.
Base lesson: No good ever came of spying on your kids and making it clear you don't have any trust for them.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Pardon my bluntness, but are you a retard? This black box is sold by a private enterprise. Parents love it. Nowhere does government come into this equation.
What a pitiful little groundless stab at government, whom, might I add, DONT want this in every car. It's the private enterprise that would like it in every car. Total market saturation == most successful business.
"Old man yells at systemd"
...if it costs 300 bucks and can be installed "in minutes" by anyone.
I imagine it would be simple enough just to disable it when you feel like it, and make everyone wonder.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
Linux O Muerte!
That said, having a little electronic mommy watching you is a terrible idea -- you never get any sense of responsibility about what you're doing when you're not the one in charge.
Personally, were I 16 again, I'd get laid more^H^H^H^H... I mean, were I 16 again, this thing would be in for a short circuit -- a little extra current applied to the board is just what the doctor ordered.
"I dunno, mom. Maybe the whole line of these things are defective?"
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Insurance companies could care less about where you drive, but they are definitely be interested in knowing when you are on the road and for how long. The more time you spend unparked increases your odds of having an accident. That's why they rate older drivers better, because their 25' Buicks spend most of the time parked. Driving at night significantly increases your risk of having an accident. It astronomically increases your risk of having an accident with (or as) a drunk driver. How do I know this? I used to be an underwriter for an auto insurance company...
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.
Only drive cars worth less than your projected deductable for collision. Bust up the car? Pfft. Get another one. It's really only worth insuring yourself.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I used to commute on CA-17, which connects Silicon Valley with Santa Cruz. It's always full of people who think nothing of driving 80 mph on a windy mountain road, who think anybody who observes the speed limit is doing it just to piss them off, and who basically exhibit behavior that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere except on the highway.
And that's what it's all about, isn't it? Communication. One reason people love their cars is that it's the one place they don't have to listen to anybody. Unfortunately, lots of people abuse this solitude. If you behaved, say, in a line at McDonalds the same way people behave on Highway 17, people would communicate a lot of anger to you. (That kind of communication while driving is known as "road rage".) Attempts have been made to communicate to the over-assertive driver. With results even -- whenever the CHP ups its presence on 17 the death rate goes way down. But the concept communicated is not "speed kills" but rather "be a good little boy when daddy's watching."
If some people end up getting supervised because they think good behavior is just a game, they've only themselves to blame.
The aviation industry could teach us a thing or two about how to use this kind of data.
The system there is aimed at exactly what neksys said, reducing the chance of people dying in the future. The regulatory structure is aimed at encouraging people to cooperate with accident investigators by protecting them against getting sued or prosecuted for telling the truth to the NTSB.
To be comparable, the motor vehicle laws would have to make black boxes inadmissible in prosecutions and maybe even off-limits in lawsuits.
Anyone else notice the workaround, by the way? If I read correctly the data are in a circular buffer which is replaced every 250 engine starts. If the car's safe to start after a crash, an unscrupulous owner could clear the accident recording simply by turning the key on and off repeatedly.
You cannot live a full life in the US when you're carless outside of very specific urban areas.
This is most evident in places such as Atlanta, GA- the entire Gwinnett County area is one giant sprawl with no interconnection, so it's likely that anything you want to do is 5-10 miles away from you at any given point, with no public transit between here and there.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I can see the thinking here, but since it only monitors the driving from the perspective of the car, it misses some important things ... like why they are happening. For example, most erratic or irresponsible driving amongst teens is due to them talking to their friends in the car, trying to use a cell phone, drinking, fiddling with the radio, etc.
... and I'd still look like a perfect driver according to this device. So much for accountability :)
For example, even with this device installed I could be driving down the street (at the speed limit) talking on my cell phone, smoking a cigarette, drinking a beer through a straw, having sex with my girlfriend and tailgating the car in front of me
(Score:-1, Wrong)
Seems to me that company XYZ will be having control over something your parents own.
I have seen some real jackass teen drivers. It always struck me that if their parents could see how they were driving the car that they borrowed, that they would be allowed to borrow it for another year (or even better, they wouldn't drive like that in the first place).
Parents have every right to monitor how their children are driving their cars.
- In Capitalist America, law violates YOU!
That's not fair. Assuming he's going to college, he shouldn't be criticized too harshly for having his folks help him out with auto or housing or whatever -- it's fuggin' expensive, esp. if you end up doing a work-study sort of thing.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Or, you frequently visit a friend just over the Mississippi border, a state that doesn't require auto insurance. Each time you do that, $bing.
I'm sure there are plenty of other (and better) paranoid posts.
I have a friend whose mother was waiting at a red light, when another vehicle backed out of a drive way and into her car pretty hard. When the police came, the driver of the other vehicle had the audacity to claim that my friend's mother actually backed into him and tried to pin the fault of the accident on her.
Fortunately, a person who saw this happen hanged around until the police came and was able to refute the other driver's fabrication.
If the car had a black box, the police officer could have quickly determined that my friend's mother's car was stationary up till the moment of impact regardless of whether a nice person did or did not loiter around at the crash scene.
Granted, people might complain about details such as the car's location and a log of speeds. These issues can be solved by convincing law makers to dictate a standard set of statistics said auto boxes would record.
I have a webcam. I put it on the floor so I can watch my dog all day while I'm at work. I do it because it helps me keep an eye on her, it's fun, other people like it too, and it hurts nobody.
When I have kids (God permitting), I may consider putting the webcam on the baby's crib. It would be fun, other people would like it, it would be a good way to keep an eye on the baby when nobody is with him/her for whatever reason, and it would hurt nobody.
Once that kid starts moving around, and growing up into a person, I would *NEVER* subject my children to that kind of oversight. I can imagine it would be VERY detrimental to their social life. Children need to live lives seperate from their parents. God knows there are things I've done (and still do) that my parents don't need to know. I'm sure my kids will do the same, and I don't want know about it (as long as they aren't hurting themselves or others).
You *NEED* some privacy in your life. I will NEVER vote for somebody who supports making something like this mandatory (and I hope my stubborn side will continue to keep this true, even as I grow old and raise kids of my own).
Bryan
http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr5.htm
From this page, it seems that recorders like this are treated as any other sort of evidence. I don't see any that aren't related to a car accident in some way, though. The real test case would be one that involved tapping of the recorder data under another circumstance.
It seems obvious that the next step that's needed is to get some real regulations in this arena- NTSB investigation regulations could probably be easily extended to cover these devices.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
and the would be poor parents if the didn't monitor their children.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Having a lot of data is a good thing when reconstructing accidents. Being able to determine exactly what the driver was doing to the car will help to distinguish between skids where the driver was making it worse, skids where the driver didn't do much to help, and skids where the driver was doing the right thing and didn't recover control in time, all of which can leave about the same evidence on the road and car.
It's not useful to know everything the driver normally does without having the road conditions in extensive detail. There's no way the box is going to be able to tell what a safe speed is, whether someone is driving erraticly in response to other cars and pedestrians. Someone driving slowly could be driving in fog, following a bicycle, in traffic, reading signs and ignoring the road, or just stoned.
This data is only really useful in conjunction with scene evidence and other witnesses (except that you could easily tell where the kid took the car and when). You can't really use it to measure driving skill.
How about the right of people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures? Hmm? Oh, that's right, this isn't intended for police use, is it? Ah, but as has already been pointed out, in this modern age of safety before liberty, government and corporate agencies are pretty quick to justify embracing new ideas like this and subverting them to their own use.
Oh, but then I guess you'll insist that I won't have anything to worry about as long as I don't break the law. Take your head out of the sand, son. In recent months it's been considered unpatriotic to question government intrusion into our lives. Did you miss the latest plan: Operation TIPS? Go have a look at the ACLU website for a nice picture of the rise of facism in the land of the free and the home of the brave.
Oh great, now my wife will be a back-seat-driver in yet *more* ways when she gets the trace-map in the mail.
Table-ized A.I.
try ridiculous, but that is beside the point...How long till these are hacked and it reports exactly what you want it to report. Gee Junior never exceeded the speed limit once, I think he should get an allowance raise :)
:)
Now for the obligatory...Imagine a beowulf cluster of these...and Does it run Linux, or how soon till we've ported it over.
Will a virus cause your car to report you driving at 900 mph and ensure that hackers will 0wn your driving record ?
La-dee da...okie I am bored and going home now...be well all
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
I can see it now - the safest driver in school (who is probably the geek) will get paid by everyone else to house their black boxes in his/her car, all at once, all connected up.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
No you don't own the car - or rather, you won't in a moment.
Having been in a crash that totaled my vehicle (gotta love people who turn left in front of you without looking) I can tell you what happens:
After the police and reporting nonsense your vehicle (or parts remaining of) go to a garage or adjusters location to be assessed. Once assessed the insurance company will tell you how much they will give you for it.
Here's the catch: They are buying the car off you.
When you go to collect your $ you sign and turn over the ownership, giving the insurance company total ownership. They are now free to do what they will with it... including checking the "black box".
So if you're car is totaled you might want to pull the box if you can. Mind you, they might have a few questions for you about where it went.
"They do not preach that their god will rouse them, a little before the Nuts work loose." Kipling, 'The Sons of Martha'
And the version included a cabin sound recorder to capture the last few seconds of activity before impact.
Usually people said, "Oh shit!" some, occasionally you'd hear snoring, but they did find a disturbing trend.
On large 4x4's in the deep south, the last thing said was "Ya'll hold my beer and watch this."
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
Let's not waste resources, most teens will learn to drive very well with the available training, but a few exceptions, who cause most of the accidents, need a bit more attention. "Black boxes" monitoring driving habits would help identify those cases where extra training would be most needed.
Nice teen rant. To bad the woman who totaled my van was in her 40's.
I would've liked to have the data myself: throw it back at the cop who tossed me in the back of her cruiser for 2hrs claiming I was "DUI" when in fact I had 0 BAL and she was at fault (turned left in front of me while I had a green). The fact that people on the scene backed up my story didn't seem to matter.
You see, if you are male and twentysomething you are automatically at fault for anything.
Remember, cops are never predujical...
"They do not preach that their god will rouse them, a little before the Nuts work loose." Kipling, 'The Sons of Martha'
It monitors speed (how fast they were driing), seat belt status (if they had the seat belts buckled), how many people were in the car (pressure-sensitive switches in the seats), and can be configured remotely by the parents--I don't have kids myself (only 22), but it's a great 'rule enforcer' for kids who have broken their parents trust when it comes to driving, but situations (e.g., school, work, etc) prevent the parent from totally acting the 'take the keys away and lock the doors' approach for punishment.
We have some companies who use these in their fleet vehicles or secondary finance market vehicles so they can look online and see where their cars are, prevent the cars from starting, see how many people have been riding with the driver, and send/receive text messages to/from the driver.
We market the product as informational use only, but people are using it in a Big Brother kind of sense. That bugs me--but that's another story for another day.
I disable sigs...do you?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Say your kid says he's taking a girl to a given movie theatre. You know how far away it is. If you see from the box that the kid stopped the car for an extended period in a place that wasn't the same distance away as the theatre - or wherever he said he was going - then you can conclude you kid's been parking. Or sitting perfectly still in odd places for no reason.
I'm the stranger...posting to
This is really a few years old. I heard about this on dateline in 96 I think it was. These boxes were also used by some car rental companies. These rental companies then tried to give the speeders tickets and this was thrown out in court. i.e. no where in the rental agreement did these people agree to recieve a ticket if the little black box said they were speeding.
Only 'flamers' flame!
Because if they are going at the speed limit its completely legal for them to do that. There is no law that makes 2 vehicals, side by side in the same lane illegal. Proof of this fact can be seen in wide right hand lanes that allow drivers to make a right and not be hampered by everyone who is going forward.
There is one small exception. Both vehicals must be able to fit in the lane. A motorbike can do this easily. However if they are forced to change lanes (to avoid angry motorists like you), they must signal. Thats about all that applies. Also, beware it is a felony to open your car door to impeed a passing motorbike. I believe manslaughter, or at least attempted pending outcome.
And no, I don't ride a bike. My father was a cop.
WELCOME TO DAUGHTER-TRACK .NET v2.0(SP1)
LISTING OF LOCALS FOR YOUR DAUGHTER
==========
3:03pm Left School
3:42pm Arrived McDonalds
5:11pm Arrived Library
6:55pm Arrived Boyfriend's House
7:31pm Arrived Pharmacy
8:01pm Arrived Parking-Lot Behing 7-11
9:00pm Still at parking lot.
10:00pm Still at parking lot.
11:00pm Still at parking lot.
12:00am Still at parking lot.
1:32am Arrived home.
Yeah, just what every parent wants to see!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Big Brother will not come about mainly as a result of goverment mandated decrees, but mainly as a result of the rampant greed of business and industry. Big Brother already tells us we cannot cultivate certain naturally growing plants. What's next? Tobacco? Coffee? They already know where we live and what we buy and sell. We've all been identified and numbered like cattle. Now they want to control our driving habits. Why am I not surprised?
That's right, bring on the snooping technologies, the vide cameras on every corner and continue to delude yourselves that you live in a free society. One day we will wake up to realize that we are all a bunch of slaves under surveillance. By then, it will be too late.
"Oh Liberty, where art thou? We have never seen thy face or heard thy voice."
Every other car? Bah! Obviously you've never driven in Montreal.
"They do not preach that their god will rouse them, a little before the Nuts work loose." Kipling, 'The Sons of Martha'
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From what I've seen there aren't nearly as many left-lane slowpokes as there are people complaining about them. Or rather, people using them to avoid acknowledging their own irresponsibility.
Speed doesn't kill? Yet every time they enforce the speed limit on 17 the death rate plummets. Apply some basic science and logic! The faster you drive, the harder it is to control your car. The faster you go, the more little strains you put on that complicated machine you're driving, the more likely you'll throw a rod or blow a tire, or get brake fade at an inopportune moment. The faster you go, the more distance you have to use up while responding to the unexpected. And of course, the faster you go, the more kinetic energy to use up in the form of bent metal and broken bodies when you do collide with something.
Why am I bothering? Bad drivers don't want to be told anything. And that's why these black boxes are inevitable.
I was a teenage driver not too long ago.
And I know how many (read: not all) of them think. They believe several things:
- They are invincible
- They can do anything they want on the road without having any concern for others and their safety.
- Their parents will pay for everything. A new car when they trash theirs, and the 5.2 billion dollar insurance premium they will be charged.
And sadly, with the latter being a beleif with a lot of basis in reality, it is obvious that drastic mesures need to be taken to monitor teenage drivers and curtail their often psychotic methods of driving.
If for no other reason than:
A - I'm worried about the safety of myself and those I love.
B - I have to pay for it, and so do you. Wonder why your insurance premiums are insanely high? Teenage drivers are a huge part of the reason. A careful teenage driver has no recourse but to pay the high premiums based on the irresponsibility of those in his age group. Driving habits which are often condoned by parents when they simply shell out more money for their kid's car and insurance without paying attention to the hazard they pose to other driver, their passengers, and those honest kids out there who just want to be able to drive to work and earn their own way, which is now far more difficult than it should be because of these assholes racking up the insurance rates for everyone.
The government has successfully brainwashed you into believing that driving is a privilege they may bestow or take away. In reality, with public transportation unservicable in much of the US, driving is an absolute necessity for one's day to day life. It is no more a "privilege" than the "privilege" of food and water.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
If underage insurance premiums won't drop as a result of this, it proves that the equipment is worthless.
It's true, idiot, that social dominance is a factor, you idiot. But every idiot knows that the communication is a part of social dominance, idiot. Which is why idiots in bank lines don't behave like idiots in cars -- idiot -- because their abuse of SD is more limited when idiots can actually talk to them.
Why do I keep saying "idiot"? Practicing social dominance of course! Which is apparently what you doing when you called me an idiot, isn't that right idiot?
"Eleven of the 45 companies that build passenger cars worldwide already use some kind of black-box technology, according to representatives of the IEEE. The best-known of those is General Motors Corp., which said three years ago that it includes the device, known as a sensing and diagnostics module, as part of its airbag sensing systems on most GM vehicles. The module can store such information as engine speed, vehicle speed, airbag deployment, seat belt deployment and the state of the brakes before and during an accident. "
And once again - all together now - "It's for the children."
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
The second most beautiful thing is a cop giving somebody like you a ticket for "Obstructing Traffic" for camping out in the passing lane. I've seen it happen, and it really made my day.
The most beautiful thing would be to see the Judge chew you out when you try to fight the ticket, but since I tend to keep my speed under 100, I don't get speeding tickets.
Why is "speeding" dangerous? Around here, outside of rush hour, the average speed on the local interstate is 75MPH. The official speed limit is 55. Some accidents are caused by the teen going 105, but also by the granny in her late husband's Cadillac puttering along at 53 in the far left lane.
FYI, this highway was designed and built prior to the "oil crisis", intended to be a 75MPH highway, the current speed limit is pure politics.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Is there any technology that can't be misused? Maybe we ought to ban it all and move back in the caves.
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
Some vehicles, especially those manufactured during the mid to late 90's already have a black box that *they* neglected to tell us about. If you're curious, its normally located beneath the driver's seat. From what I understand of the hidden black box, is that it only stores retains driving information for a few seconds, but stops recording when a serious event occurs, such as an airbag sensor being triggered. The concept is that law enforcement would then be able to use the black box data to make critical determinations in accident investigations, such as speed, braking, etc.
I'm not 100% sure about why these weren't put into widespread use, but I believe the necessary laws have not been passed, so law enforcement is unable to use the data. Not all vehicles have been equipped.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
... most teens will learn to drive very well with the available training ...
No they will not. Driving well takes years of practice sitting behind the wheel. Regardless of how well informed a new driver is they just don't have the reflexes, situational awareness, and prioritization skills that all work subconsciously and are based on experience.
Uh huh. And for a little more information on that you had better brush up on Carroll v United States and the circumstances behind this tradition. And as far as your shopping list of things not listed in the Constitution, go take a look at the Ninth Amendment and review it's intent. Of course, these days there is precious little attention paid to the Ninth...it may as well have been repealed.
I'll say this, at least you recognize that it is wrong, even if you'd rather deny the strongest argument of why.
Invasion of privacy, that's all it is...
There is very little privacy when driving on a public road. Your behavior on the road is not private. You may be observed, stopped, questioned, etc. without warrant. You agreed to all this when accepting the privelage of driving. What privacy you have on the road is pretty much limitted to your property not in plain sight. IANAL.
I usually don't bitch about rejected submissions, but I submitted this story over a year ago. :)
# 2001-04-16 18:18:49 Track-A-Teen (yro,news) (rejected)
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Firstly, i presume you mean "in between lanes" not "in the middle lane".
/never/ get stuck in traffic.
:)
Secondly, as both a motorcyclist and a car driver: getting passed by motorbikes in traffic - do you think the motorcyclist is going to stay stuck in lane behind cars? Course not. Also, in quite a few countries this is legal - its called filtering. (as long it doesnt border on dangerous/reckless driving - ie motorcyclists should keep the speed differential down to a max of 20mph differential).
it's a big part of the attraction of having a motor bike for commuting, the fact that you
Hard shoulder at 100MPH is obviously dumb. But hard shoulder at a safe speed differential is fine if the cars are going quite slow (eg sub 20mph). (whether its technically legal or not is another question - but at least a motorbike is not going to block the hard shoulder).
But what a petty post. Just cause you get peeved while sitting in traffic jams you have to begrudge those who are on bikes and dont get stuck. maybe you need to get a bike.
--paulj
I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
What I want to see is for the black boxes to tell whether the driver was on the cell phone when the "incident" occurred.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
How will it save lives? The only information it would gather is after the fact information. A person is just as dead whether or not you know for sure the kid was driving at 105 or 110
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
... Young people aren't all terrible drivers ...
But they are not very good drivers either, and this is simply a lack of experience not a lack of diligence or care. Some things require many hours of hands on experience, driving is one of these. Much of driving occurs at a subconscious level and new drivers suffer from information overload. The brain has to learn what to filter out. The subconsious steering corrections to maintain lane postion have to develop, etc.
a few years ago, let's say 1997-8 or so. I would have made my company go bankrupt quicker!
E EE IIIIIIII
*This is a tale of dot com glutony*
I was working for a small startup with a good amount of capitol. I was averaging a trip a week down to our LA office to deal with all the windows problems. (Remote wasn't possible, the CTO thought that running HIZ software through a firewall/Router/Tunnel would make it run bad)
Anyways aside from the problem of having a lunatic for a CTO my main issue was making sure that if the LA office needed me that week that they arranged all travel.
Well sometimes things were forgotten, and one week they forgot to rent my car for me. I was in the burbank airport, at the budget rent a car counter...
"Mr. Toqer we're sorry but we have no reservations for you!"
"Awe fuck, they slipped upped again" I muttered to myself. "Ok then what do you have left??
"We have a 1998 Convertable Jaguar XK8!" Oooh my pulse quickened, I was going to be there 3 days, sportin that ride in LA would be tits! So I called my CEO to see if it would be ok.
"Yo, CEO, your office manager forgot to reserve my car AGAIN! All the other rental places are out of cars and all thats left is a Jaguar Xk8"
"How much?"
"$350@day"
"Do it! I want to see you here in 30 minutes!"
Man, what a rush. I had never, and I mean NEVER EVER driven a car that fast in my life. I hopped on the 405?? and headed towards Thousand Oaks. I put the pedal to the medal and I felt like I was the millenium falcon going into hyperdrive! It went from 0 to 110 in no time flat.
Well towards the end of my trip I thought i'd go see the sunset strip by myself. I wanted to see the viper room where river phonix died (favorite actor, stand by me, ect) I made it a point to have a beer at about 9 of the joints on the strip. Fully loaded with a buzz I hopped back on the 101 to thousand oaks.
I look back now, it's not that funny. I really could have hurt myself, or some innocent bystander. 25, young dumb and full of cum.
Well, not really an exciting end to this post, just that I somehow managed to make it back to my hotel without wrecking or getting pulled over. Next day I handed the keys back and swore I would never drive anything over a "econo class" again. I'm not sure I can responsibilly handle that much power.
PUNCH IT CHEWIE
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAE
--toq
There's a bunch of fallacies in my thinking, but here's the big one: in order to go fast on 17, I had to do most of my driving in the left lane. Which maximized my interaction with the cowboy element.
So one day I'm driving over the summit, going maybe 10 mph over the speed limit. Road's wet, but not wet enough to interfere with my control of the car. My immediate mistake was not to wonder why there was so many people moved into the right lane. When I got to that famous curve just below the summit I found out why: some bozo had taken the curve way, way too fast and had spun around. So he's stalled, facing the wrong way. I have just enough time to stop without hitting him.
OK, tense, but no harm. Except that before I can merge in with all those cars in the right lane, another bozo takes the curve way, way, too fast and plowed into me.
I came out OK (seatbelt!), except for my glasses flying off and smashing themselves against the windshield. But the people in the other two cars didn't do so good. And Paku-San, my beloved Suburu, was totaled.
So now when I do 17, I minimize my cowboy interaction by using the right lane, except to pass. And I drive precisely the speed limit. Partly that's because there's more enforcement than their used to be. But mainly because certain illusions got smashed up along with Paku-San.
Prison? I was hit in the rear passengers' side tire area by someone who flew through a red light (turned green just as he went under it, and I never got a yellow turn arrow, just went from green to red as I was turning), doing 70, and it pretty much destroyed the rear end of my car, snapping my axle, etc. Guess who they blamed it on? Not the guy doing 3x the speed limit (with tire marks on the road as proof) but me. Not to mention his headlights barely worked, so I couldn't even see him coming.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
I think if you've got a problem of getting caught driving fast, then you need to be observed to make sure you understand that speed limits are there for a reason. Surely there are a lot of anarchists-at-heart types reading this saying "no way! eff that!" but seriously, 3 speeding tickets, and you need something to help you understand the law better. We all have to play along nicely on the road. Just because you woke up late doesn't mean you can put my life in jeopardy.
I make these: http://beatseqr.com
That is just such a load.
Open your newspaper up some time. You'll find that there are more accidents involving teenagers than you think. When mommy and daddy stop paying for the insurance you may discover this as well. Especially if you're unfortunate enough to purchase the same model of car that parents give to their irresponsible teenagers when they turn 16; your insurance rates will take your breath away.
I've been driving for thirty years with no moving violations but have had two accidents: both caused by teenagers. (Rear-ended at a red stop light by a seventeen year old doing 40 and broadsided a sixteen year old who didn't look for oncoming traffic and pulled right out into traffic from a stop sign.)
No.
The accidents are then caused by idiots who think that their time is so important that everyone else should just pull off the road until these very important people pass. But when nobody clears the road for them, they begin weaving in and out of traffic and creating a very dangerous situation. George Carlin had a great suggestion for such people: ``Leave earlier!'' (I know a cop you told me a story once with a guy that he pulled over for driving like a foot off someone's rear bumber, eventually passing the front car in a no passing zone, and in a school zone to boot. He argued with the cop, insisting that the posted speed limit was the minimum speed that you were supposed to be driving and that the driver in the other car should have been getting a ticket. The driver who did get the three tickets was nineteen. Hee hee.)
Much of what you see on the roads nowadays would, at one time, earn you a reckless driving citation and possibly the opportunity to lose your license altogether. Perhaps its time they started enforcing those laws once again. I only have a 25 minute commute to work and I manage to see a lot of boneheaded drivers. The vast majority are teenagers and not senior citizens.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Rental car companies in the United Arab Emirates don't need this black box. Foreign visitors just need to read this little blurb from the US State Dept web site.
Country-wide traffic laws impose stringent penalties for certain violations, particularly driving under the influence of alcohol. Penalties may include hefty jail sentences and fines, and, for Muslims, lashings. Persons involved in an accident in which another party is injured automatically go to jail until the injured person is released from the hospital. Should a person die in a traffic accident, the driver of the other car is liable for payment of compensation for the death (known as "dhiyya"), usually the equivalent of 41,000 U.S. dollars. Even relatively minor accidents may result in lengthy proceedings, during which both drivers may be prohibited from leaving the country.
I believe this policy also pertains to a foreign passenger in a taxi. I was told that part of the logic behind this is that the accident would not have taken place if the foreigner was not in the country. Obviously I didn't rent a car while I was there, and I closed my eyes and prayed (to Allah, Jesus, RMS, Buddha, the Big Kahuna, Chucky Cheese, etc...) when I was in a taxi.
Actually, that's irrelevant in this case. The black boxes aren't mandated by law and likely won't be (that'd be an illegal search). What can happen, though, is that you sign a contract when you buy your car / buy your insurance / etc agreeing to allow them to record your activities with a black box.
Think of it as an EULA for your car.
I'd be up for that, considering how little I drive. Maybe some people will start doing healthier, more environmentally-friendly things like biking/walking places.
And likely revoke your insurance policy, too, considering they required you to have it put in in the first place.
first, every teen that drives like a jerk/idiot I can show you EXACTLY where they got that habit.
Their parents. If a child grows up watching daddy tailgate that little Kia in his big-bad yukon while trash talking, "Man this asshole is doing the speed-limit.. I wish I could just push him out of the way" or watches mommie floor it up to the barrels and arrow-board in a construction area and FORCES her way in to the merged traffic at the last second..
This is how these teens that drive like idiots and morons get their driving habits... from the idiots and morons that had and raised them.
And being a regular commuter..The numbers of drivers that drive like idiots and morons is increasing..
I dont think the parents should be black-boxing the kids... it should be the state, and pull their drivers license until 25 if the box reports idiot driving.... But then I also believe that the driving test/license requirements should be quadrupled, as with giving 50% of the traffic fines to the officer as an incentive to enforce traffic laws.
too many people are content with driving like morons, and they are breeding more morons for the roads.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
in my vintage Volvo 240DL. Of course, exceeding the speed limit in that bad boy doesn't happen without some time to think about it on the way up to speed.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
A Jag? Good acceleration?
Methinks thou hast never been strapped to a Japanese multi before. Two minutes on the latest and greatest 1 liter+ bikes from Japan will make you forget all about that trip.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Okay. so the box keeps data five seconds before the crash. ALL you need to do is hack it to let you know when it starts recording, and you have five seconds to save yourself! Amazing! They cant build a car that runs more than 3K without an oil change, but they have black boxen that predict the future accurately!
:P
Maeryk
Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
Really, if knowing that they're being monitored prevents a teen from driving like a jackass, good.
Contrary to popular belief, teens aren't the same as adults, don't carry the same responsibilities, etc. This right to all-encompassing entitlement is a big reason why kids today are a bunch of spoiled bastards. They should realize how lucky they are to be able to drive in the first place, rather than whine about their "lack of freedom".
Give me a break.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Hmm. This suggests an interesting new social philosophy. If you make people follow rules, you're punishing them. Most people don't need rules, because they have enough common sense not to abuse their freedom. So, it shouldn't be against the law to rob banks. After all, only a few are greedy enough to try to take all the money, and we shouldn't punish all the sensible people who only steal money when they absolutely need to.
I'm not sure that's very practical, but maybe I'm just an innate fascist!
It's a reference to the saying, "Bell the cat." It's an old-tech method of keeping Tabby from eating all the birds in the neighboorhod. It's also a way of knowing where your pet is so you can keep track of it. It's the second definition I am playing on with this joke: The black box is a way of belling the teenage driver so you know what they're doing.
That said, I don't want to seem insensitive to teenagers in the context of this black box thingy. Personally, I'd be really pissed if someone thought tracking me like this was a good idea or thought that anything I do is anyone else's business providing I'm not breaking a (valid) law.
I can see this scenario as having happened if this type of tracking had been available when I was a teenager:
Mom: "I noticed that the recorder says there was lopsided weight on the right side of the car last night combined with much movement. Were you having sex with whats-her-name again?"
Me: "Mom, it's an MGB two seater sports car -- there just isn't anyplace else in the car to do it!"
Mom: "Well, next time take the Buick."
Me: "Okay, thanks!"
Everything in the Universe sucks: It's the law!
There is no law that makes 2 vehicals, side by side in the same lane illegal. Proof of this fact can be seen in wide right hand lanes that allow drivers to make a right and not be hampered by everyone who is going forward.
In your state that may be true. In Idaho it's illegal to drive a vehicle side-by-side with another vehicle unless there is a lane dividing marker between the two vehicles. I know a person who was cited and ticketed in an accident because she passed stopped traffic on the right in one of these "widened right hand turn areas" you speak of, passing though a "don't block this intersection" area as she did so, and someone making a left hand turn though the "don't block" area hit her car. She fought it, and the law was pulled out, and she lost, because she wasn't driving in a marked lane. Sure it was wide enough, and the city built the street with the widened area intentionally to allow this to happen, but it isn't legal to drive there.
He never said he was in a traffic jam. This happens to me in 60mph traffic all the time. Then again, it's not my life these people are peddling.
We've got uber spygear in cars now...it's only a matter of time before the insurance guys and their lobbyists pressure the auto industry and congress to mandate cars that can't break the law. Imagine, cars that won't go over the speed limit (based on GPS and databases of local speed limits); cars that won't start if your seatbelt isn't buckled, or if you've blown a high blood-alcohol content. How about cars that won't allow you to turn your steering wheel unless you've signaled first???
Hell, why don't we just outlaw the damn things right now and force people to use public transportation....freedom be damned.
Uggh....now i'm starting to sound like Stallman.
-ted
I don't think any age is better or worse than any other
. The group made up of 16-year-olds are also shown to have a fatal accident rate of 42 per 100 million vehicle miles traveled, compared to the average of two for ages 30-50. I'd say there's a sharp difference between age groups.
According to the California Office of Traffic Safety, drivers aged 15-20 made up 6.3% of the population, but were involved in 12.5% of the injury and fatality collisions (http://www.ots.ca.gov/campaign/youthq/brief.asp)
Unlike some places, our insurance here varies only on driving record (licence goes up by $25 every bad thing you do, car never goes up) which is the way is should be.
Your mention of SK means, I presume, Saskatchewan, suggesting that Canada is your home. Canadian insurance laws seem quite different from American insurance laws. I'm anxious for next summer to come around so I reach the three-year point when the collision on my record -- my fault -- comes off. The settlement was for $10,000, and my rates got boosted by about $450 a year, meaning that they get $1350 for me costing them $10K, not to mention whatever other incidental costs are there. Of course, I've been paying my insurance company between $1200 and $2100 a year, depending on what I've been driving, whether I have a collision on my record, and my age group, so I guess it's fair. But I have no moving violations, and the two accidents have been relatively minor. I'm an odd exception to the rule.
My dad is even further off. He's been driving for 30 years, and has never had a moving violation or been in a single accident. He's come close, but never had one. Luck and skill. My middle brother, OTOH, is 25 and has four speeding tickets and three collisions, one of which resulted in the totaling of two relatively young cars cars and a six-month suspended license. I've seen his insurance bill, and it's not pretty. But it is simple statistics. Between the two extremes of my dad and his spotless record, and my brother, lies me. I see those, and I understand why the numbers on my insurance bill look as they do.
Canada has fewer people, generally a little more spread out than the United States, so the insurance laws and rates will be different. I know people who live in places where there's only a single paved road through town, and they pay less than half of what I do. They have lower chances of an accident. I drive the highways of Southern California, meaning I take risks whether it's my foot on the floor or not (usually not, but sometimes...). Part of living in the place I choose.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
I once saw a headline in a paper that that read "Teenage drivers and the risks the pose." They had a nice picture of a red convertabnle wrapped around a tree. Funny thing was. I knew the person who was in the crash that was printed. She was broadsided by a van that ran a red light. No way related to anything about age or the fact that is was a fast car. Just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Teens do get a really bad wrap at times. But then there the bad eggs that always show their faces and ruin it for the others. Heck, I know someone who backed out of their garage before opening the door. Age wasn't a factor in that one, just stupidity.
I pay through the teeth for insurance. 20 yrs old and a pony car doesn' make for cheap rates. But still, I've got 4 years of driving and a perfect driving record. But that doesn't matter. They see the age and the car and immediately plaster high risk over everything.
{rant}
This little device doesnt teach them proper driving. I mean since when has coming to a complete stop at every stop sign made someone a better driver? Never, its the concious, logical thought that goes into driving. A good driver does not neccisarily follow the rules. "Obey the law but dont let it rule you." What does it matter if I come to a complete stop at every stop sign if no one is there? They need to learn how to use their brain! Not become little socially controlled automatons who learn to obey the "black box" without thinking. This program isnt making good drivers, its making nice little tax paying, go exactly the speed limit, good citizen sheep that vote the way N'Sync tells them to.
When i was young, my mother never went through my drawers looking for pot, spying on my habits to protect me from myself. She would never resort to installing filters on our computer to make sure i wasnt looking at how to make bombs. Invading your childs privacy and forcing them to act like there is a camera over their shoulder is not the way to make sure they dont hurt themselves. What people do in front of a camera is different from what they do in private. Fear of consequences is not a substitute for morals. This "black box" is just another way for parents to invade their childrens privacy.
This is just another step towards Hilary Clintons "It takes a Village" perfect world for raising children.
{/rant}
-blar
"Hey son, I went to check on your driving last night and that damn box didn't work! Can you explain?"
"Yeah, I accidentally poured my beer into it while driving. Sorry about that. Guess they won't replace that under warranty."
Repeat until parent is broke. Or you have to get your own car.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
``bad wrap''?
``red convertable wrapped around a tree''?
Pun intended perhaps?
Seriously... It's probably because most teens are fairly poor drivers. If not poor, they're definitely inexperienced and incapable of handling certain situations. At least the only thing that explains why a very gentle S curve in a road near where I live has been the site of something like 15 accidents with either fatalities or very serious injuries since I moved to the area (9 years ago). And in every single case, it was a car load of teenagers involved. I drive through that curve at least a couple of times a week and, for the life of me, I cannot see anything about it -- signage, banking, speed limit (it's only 40), etc. -- that could be the cause of these accidents. That leaves the inexperience of the drivers about the only explanation. Driving is a skill. It takes time to learn and many teens try to do things in a car that they're not experienced enough to do safely.
You wanna see your rates skyrocket? Join the military. I hear that guys in their early 20s, with a hot car, and in the service have the highest rates.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What good is that going to do? If a 16 year old passed a driving test at 16, he or she can repass it at 21. With the exception of really old people, most accidents are usually caused by carelessness, not lack of skills.
Have you ever driven on snow and/or ice? If somebody can't do it, they shouldn't be driving here. Ideally, everybody would take their test in the winter, or on some simulated winter conditions.
God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
I hopped on the 405?? and headed towards Thousand Oaks. I put the pedal to the medal and I felt like I was the millenium falcon going into hyperdrive! It went from 0 to 110 in no time flat.
110. On the 405???? I can tell you've never been in LA before. It's not for nothing that we call it the worlds biggest parking lot.
Mmmm.. Donuts
Actually I'd welcome something like this so I could optimize my commute. I've been looking for a good way to track details of my commute. I'd love to use that data with some sort of genetic algorithm to help me determine when the best times to be coming to and from work are. Excepting accidents, construction, and dumbshit drivers who don't realize the left lane is not for cruising at 5mph under the speed limit, I figure I could shave 10 - 20% of the time off my daily commute. Over a years time, that really adds up.
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
The main reason seems to be to ensure that they take their breaks on time (ie. rest) and don't speed. Since the buses cover the remote areas not always covered by trains, these measures seem good for the health and comfort of the driver and for the saftey of the passengers.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
The statistic at my wife's old high school said X number of students dead that year from alcohol related accidents and made a big stink about it.
What they failed to mention was that in all but one the adult driver was the one drinking, and in the other the students were drinking but there was no way they could have avoided getting hit as in your example.
You wanna see your rates skyrocket? Join the military. I hear that guys in their early 20s, with a hot car, and in the service have the highest rates.
Ain't that the truth. I was 21 with a used 4 y/o VW Scirocco, and the rates were insane.
As you may know, the government has changed not long ago. The former minister of transports, Jean-Claude Gayssot, was just dumb as to highlight speed as the major cause of accidents. Like pretty much all ministers before him, he couldn't make the difference between exceeding the speed limit and excessive speed.
I dream-hoped for a change. Well, no. The current minister, Gilles De Robien, is even worse. In his project for increased road security (let me laugh), his proposed measures enclose a blackbox in every car. But not only to record accident data, mind you. No, these boxes may record speed permanently and will be controllable by the police in order to detect speed limit infringements. Worse, he wants spying tickets on highways (you have to pay for highways here) so that they can tell whether the guy was driving too fast by measuring the time between the ticket was taken and when this ticket is given back to the cashier at the exit of the highway.
Fine, then, but what about useful measures for a change? Improved driver training? No. More severe driving license exam? No. Working out dangerous spots on open roads? No. Putting radars on dangerous spots instead of straight lines? No.
I do hope the US equivalent of the minister of transports has a clue. Here, it's not the case. Help...
At some point, my kids will be of driving age.
I know regardless they will screw around for a while, just like I did when I first got my license, but overall, I'd like to think I was a good enough parent to teach them to be responsible.
But it comes down to a very simple equation: If you don't trust your kids enough to handle a car on their own without some electronic device tracking them, you shouldn't let them drive at all.
It irks me whenever something comes out that takes the burden of evaluating the responsibility of childern away from the parents. "Oh, little Johnny is a handful, and he can't be trusted, but this little box will make sure he never does anything wrong".
Right. And while they peel away little Johnnys brains from the dashboard along with his freinds and a carload of innocent moterists, I'm sure that black box will make everything better after the fact.
The Internet is generally stupid
I cannot stress how few people drive predictably (especially here in Albuquerque)
Here in Phoenix, we are lucky. Everybody drives predictably: They will ignore every other car on the road.
I moved here a few years ago, and was surprised that nobody seems to understand the concept of turn signals.
If you are on the Freeweay, and you need to get over to another lane, and there is a small gap and you turn on your turn signal for a car to see, logic should dictate to other drivers that you do, in fact, intend to change lanes.
But in every instance, I sit there for a quarter mile with my turn signel on and a small but safe gap to change lanes, and when I finally get fed up with waiting for the other driver to slow down, I change lanes.
Inevitably, I get a horn blasted and the bird from the other driver. I give them the bird in return, because now I'm usually steamed too.
I sometimes wish they would follow me, and when I stop, and they get out of the car to yell at me for 'cutting them off', I could point at those funny looking glass things above my break lights.
"You see those? You know, when those things are flashing, that means I'm going to change lanes. You will usually get a warning. 20-30 seconds should be enough. Trust me, those just aren't there to make pretty flashing lights for your amusment, they mean something!"
The Internet is generally stupid
Setting aside the privacy concerns, I'd love a data logger for my car, attached to a GPS, that would allow me to replay my journies on the PC when I got home. I'm sure I'm sad enough to find the variations in speed, braking, acceleration between the same journies somewhat fascinating. I can see endless possibilities in being able to manipulate a record of my car use. Bring it on.
I sometimes wish they would follow me, and when I stop, and they get out of the car to yell at me for 'cutting them off', I could point at those funny looking glass things above my break lights.
"You see those? You know, when those things are flashing, that means I'm going to change lanes. You will usually get a warning. 20-30 seconds should be enough. Trust me, those just aren't there to make pretty flashing lights for your amusment, they mean something!"
I'm pretty sure if you ever tried that you'd get punched in the face (or worse) for being a smartass...
Black holes are where God divided by zero
I can't help but think, that, maybe, having someone monitor everyone's driving habits could have a good side. Just think... if all the morons are always having their liscenses suspended, imagine how much less traffic there'd be for the rest of us to deal with! In Dallas, anyway, about 90% of the drivers would have to ride DART, and I could get to work much faster.
Instead, if they use them to gather data about REAL driver habits and what really causes accidents, I believe they will find that speed is not the problem, and that most inter-city highways could safely raise the speed limit 10 mph or so, since many people are safely going over that limit anyway.
Instead, I expect that they will find that cell phones, listening to certain kinds of music, arguing while driving, weather and road conditions, or just bad driving habits like weaving in and out of traffic are causing the accidents.
Or maybe not - maybe speed will be the factor. I don't know, but I do know that, once you have generous data collection facilities, it then become possible to use science to determine what causes accidents, and how to make driving safer.
The one thing they will confirm is that speed of collision strongly affects how lethal the accident is - and they will be able to measure true speeds, rather than use the speed of the road. I see a lot more 10mph rear-end accidents at traffic lights than 65 mph head-on collisions.
But as an adult this appeals to me on certain levels. Most teen drivers I encounter drive like fucking braindead idiots and having some way to keep those people in check would be nice. Then again, there's probably lots of responsible teen drivers. But you know what -- I don't tend to notice those drivers because they just blend in with the rest of the responsible masses. The only ones who get noticed are the dipshits.
So, to the teens out there who are upset about this: you need to do one of two things: if you are an asshole dipshit driver, change your driving habits. Or, if you are a considerate, responsible driver, you surely know some friends who drive like dipshits. Put some pressure on your friends.
It's easy to feel invincible as a teenager, but just in the last several months I've seen a lot of nasty stuff happen on roadways to friends of mine (luckily nobody has died yet). You are certainly NOT invincible. And you aren't only taking your own life into your hands, you are also responsible for all the people around you on the road.
And i never said traffic jam - i said "stuck in traffic". (and on a bike any kind of car traffic is 'stuck in traffic')
Also, like i said, it is perfectly safe as long the speed differential isnt too great, eg no more than 20mph - depending on the density of the traffic. If the biker is any kind of decent rider, then as he passes you he's already spent several seconds observing how you drive as he approached you, and as he passes by you he's keeping an eye on any or all of your steering-wheel, bonnet or front wheels (depending on which is most visible to him) looking for any indication of an imminent change in direction.
it's up to the bike to make a safe pass, and as long as a car driver observes the minimum of safety precautions (ie look over shoulder and check mirrors before changing lane) there is no problem.
the only danger is car drivers who just cant be arsed to check the lane is clear before changing lane. and even here a good biker should easily be able to take evasive action.
anyway.. stop spreading FUD about bikes.
--paulj
I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
...if I still drove, I'd welcome this measure, as long as I get to control when it's put in my car. That way, when one of those morons slammed into me (I am a much better driver than most people here; I don't have a license 'cause I couldn't afford the second &#@* road test), it would show that it wasn't my fault.
Then again, after Mike Harris AND no-fault insurance, maybe it is a bad idea after all...
(The slashdot.org link is to a journal entry I just wrote on the paucity of the local drivers' skills, incidentally.)
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
Good post but:
> hoping that RoadCorp wont revoke your driving privileges for having a broken tail light
RoadCorp wouldn't do anything to revoke your license outright, even if you're a dangerous driver (after all, more drivers = more money), but they might deny you access to their road unless your tail light is manufactured by a preferred RoadCorp affiliate. Thats the scary part.
"Old man yells at systemd"
if the time comes that I ever have to ride a bike because the gov't tracks me otherwise, I think I'd rather sell all my material goods and go live in tibet. I hated bikes as a kid and I will never ride one ever again. EVER. I don't care if that makes me an ugly american that doesn't give a shit about the environment. Bikes SUCK.
I've been driving for thirty years with no moving violations but have had two accidents: both caused by teenagers. (Rear-ended at a red stop light by a seventeen year old doing 40 and broadsided a sixteen year old who didn't look for oncoming traffic and pulled right out into traffic from a stop sign.)
Yes, but anecdotal evidence works both ways. I've been driving 13 years (with one speeding ticket in a rural speed trap). I have been in three accidents, all ruled the other party's fault.
One was a female senior citizen on her way to a garden club meeting who ran a red light because she couldn't be late for her social function.
One was a middle aged female who had taken her husband's car without permission and "he'll kill me if he finds out" -- rear-ended me at ~30mph while yielding to traffic at an interstate on-ramp.
One was a youngish (30s) female driving an SUV with four kids in the back -- rear-ended me at a red light going about 45 mph because she was looking at the four kids and ignoring the road.
So my experience has been totally contrary to yours. All of my accidents have been caused by mature female drivers not paying attention to the road. No teenagers in sight.
I wonder if the advocates of the black boxes (parents, etc) will subject themselves to the same monitoring? I can't begin to count the number of times I've seen a minivan/suv packed full of kids driving 20+ mph over the speed limit and jockeying across the lanes. I'd love to see how long the advocates (especially police and nervous mothers) of the boxes would put up with getting beeped every time they went over the speed limit. I think we'd see speed limits get raised.
As far as monitoring speed, you don't have to be going fast to have an accident. Most fender benders are at low speed and a pedestrian doesn't need to be hit at high speed to be seriously injured or killed.
If they were serious about technological solutions to poor driving then why do they allow cell phones to operate while the car is in motion?
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Simple, they have a 5 second loop of memory/tape/whatever that is recorded over and over and over. When the tape stops recording, it's full of the last 5 seconds of driving.
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
"You will usually get a warning. 20-30 seconds should be enough."
In the defense of the other drivers I have to say I've seen enough people drive with their turn signals on blinking nonstop to make me ignore turn signals that are on that long. If you don't change lanes in 10-15 secs I'll figure you aren't planning on changing lanes any time soon. Somehow people manage to be oblivious to the fact that there is a light that has been flashing on their dashboard for miles.
"and a small but safe gap to change lanes"
In your defense, that really burns me up. You leave a safe gap between you and the car in front and it becomes a magnet for every lane jockey on the road. "Wow, a space I might be able to squeeze into! It MUST be a faster lane!" I do though get annoyed by people who leave big spaces at lights preventing people from being able to pull into turn lanes. I never understood the purpose of having half a car length in front of you at a light. Expecting to be kidnapped or something?
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
... and finite reaction time, kinetic energy, and mechanical stress are all myths. Whatever you say.
Then watch as the speed limits get dropped down to 25 everywhere for the sake of public "safety" (and more $!)
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
So if I change lanes, not expecting some idiot to be shooting up between 2 cars behind me, you shouldn't complain if I slam into you? After all, you didn't want to wait.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
I keep wondering if having a better way for drivers to communicate (and I don't mean the finger) would help things on the road? Maybe some sort of LED display on the back and/or the grill, for example: "Please turn off your turn signal!" Of course you'd still have people using it to display obscenities too.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
If I had had parents who monitored my every move I would've just ended up doing the safest thing, sitting on my ass all day doing nothing but watching TV. I doubt that is what parents really want.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
If you take a corner too fast, it beeps. If you stopped to hard, it beeps. It TRAINS you to drive better, with the added benefit of "Oh shit, my dad's gonna find out!"
Everyone is zeroing in on the recording aspect, but have you heard of these being used to fire or ticket ambulance drivers, where they were ORIGINALLY USED? It made them better drivers, and THAT'S the positive of it.
Everybody here complains that DeCSS allows them to watch TV on 'unauthorized' equipment, but they don't pirate, so the GOOD of the tool should be seen. Then something like this box shows up, and everyone concentrates on the bad, rather than the good.
Does everyone trust noone, and at the same time expect everyone to trust them?
Rant off :)
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
I just found the following in a german magazine (Spiegel):
>>Abgesehen davon hat die Justiz längst erkannt, dass es schon bei niedrigeren Geschwindigkeiten gefährlich wird. "Es gibt eine Entscheidung des Bundesgerichtshofes, die festlegt, dass die Betriebsgefahr im Auto ab Tempo 180 steigt", sagt Maximilian Maurer. "Bei höherem Tempo muss immer damit gerechnet werden, dass man bei einem Unfall eine Mitschuld bekommt."
Roughly translated:
Besides that, the government has already realized that it is going to get dangerous at much lower speeds. "There is a statement by the Bundesgerichtshof that states that the danger of a car increses at speeds above 180km/h", says Maximilian Maurer, "At higher speeds you always have to assume that in case of an accident you receive part of the faul."
This btw, was in an article about the end of a voluntary speed limit of 250km/h by car manufacturers in Germany.
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
Thick as a freakin' brick, aintcha?
If the black box shows that you consistently drive half the speed limit, your insurance company is going to recognize that you are a speedbump hazard, and jack your rates, just as it would if you regularly double the speed limit.
My root post clearly states that when everyone drives the speed limit -- ie. not faster than, not slower than -- we're all safer.
In my province, you *can* be ticketed for driving too slow. You want the same thing to happen in your state, you'd best lobby for it.
Please engage your brain before you respond to posts. Your Sunday Driver argument is purely strawman.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
The problem with these simplistic metrics is that it encourages a parent to absolve themselves of responsibility, and the "kid" learns that "safe-driving is anything that doesn't make the box go beep".
"hey, I don't have to check if johnnie is safe, the box will tell me" - well I bet it won't tell you if johnnie isn't paying attention, if he drives without lights, if he wanders onto the wrong side of the road, if he lets his mates start mooning passing motorists with guns....
Similarly johnnie has the perfect excuse when he has an accident "but the box said I was OK, so it couldn't have been my fault".
Teach kids to drive safely, to act responsibly, to look out for the welfare of themselves and for others, then let them know that you're putting your trust in them to do so. Good parenting is NOT a technology issue.
T
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best
I'm supposed to be more offended by "moron" than by "idiot"? I guess I'm pretty dumb, 'cause that goes right by me!
Yes they are. Our towns and cities are full to bursting with cars, so the obvious solution is to try and get some public transport working. So provide a good reason for drivers to get out of their cars and onto public transport, and urban areas will no longer be dirty, noisy and unhealthy places where it takes you hours to travel a couple of miles.
My objection isn't that they're doing this, it's that they're not putting the alternative in place first. If they'd already got working bus systems and cycle routes sorted, they'd have a good argument. But in too many cases it just looks like back-door taxation, bcos there's no practical alternative to driving.
Grab.
Breaking the law is a significant source of revenue for your local police department.
Also, I can't see that such a device would help establish the cause of accidents. I have been in a couple of near misses where the only safe way out is to put your foot to the floor - but what would an insurance company say if they saw this information from a black box?
I had the misfortune of witnessing a serious car accident last winter. Some guy in a small sedan tried to beat the light at an intersection and T-boned an SUV as it made a left turn in the dedicated lane.
What would the black box in the sedan say? 5 seconds before the collision, the driver floored it as it headed southbound at the intersection of Commercial Drive and East Hastings. In the SUV? 5 seconds before the collision, it was sitting at the intersection in the left turn lane eastbound on East Hastings and 1 second before the collision calmly pulled into the intersection to make a left turn.
The big question is "what did the lights say?" Even I don't know. I wasn't paying attention to that at the time. And if the clocks on the lights (they'll likely have logs somewhere) are off even by a few seconds, you can't use that very well. Typically though, I wouldn't doubt they'd be off by a few minutes, making whatever logs they kept totally useless compared with the gps systems in the cars.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
- (1-.063)^2 = 87.8% of accidents would involve zero 15-to-20-year-olds.
- (.063*.937)*2 = 11.8% would involve one 15-to-20 year-old.
.063^2 = 0.4% would involve two 15-to-20-year-olds.
(Note grand total of 100%)That gives us an expected 11.8+0.4 = 12.2% involvement rate for that age group, if all drivers are equally likely to get into an accident. That makes the 12.5% number look less exciting.
The second statistic is more illustrative, but it's not clear whether "The group made up of 16-year-olds" means "16-year-olds" or "an arbitrary age range including 16-year-olds and younger, obviously unlicensed drivers". It would be valuable to see these numbers with unlicensed drivers excluded (since unlicensed / untrained drivers are probably more dangerous, and generally younger).
cheers,
mike
if you have a habit of changing lanes without checking your mirrors and without looking over your shoulder to check the blind spot and instead you just assume you can, then you are quite frankly a danger to other road users, be they motorcyclists or not, and you should not be on the road - you are going to cause a major accident someday.
:) Hopefully you'll be more careful in the future.
/not/ that kind of driver. :)
if you do check your mirrors, look to the blind spot and indicate before changing lanes then there's no problem.
Do the math, a bike filtering through traffic at a 20mph differential (and 20mph diff is quite fast. 10mph diff is far more reasonable) will spend at least 10 seconds covering the last 100m of ground between the 2 of you. So if you have 100m of visibility behind you (almost guaranteed on motorways/dual carriageways) the bike will have been visible in your mirrors for at least 10 seconds.
With 200m, 20mph diff: 22seconds
With 100m, 15mph diff: 15s
With 200m, 16mph diff: 30s
With 100m / 10mph diff: 22s
With 200m / 10mph diff: 45s
Now 20mph diff is nearly bordering on reckless (depending on the conditions - eg 100m / 20mph -> dangerous). So lets assume 15mph.
So between 15mph,100m and 10mph,200m its safe to assume that a biker filtering through traffic will have been visible in your mirrors for at least 15seconds and perhaps anything up to 45 seconds.
Needless to say, you should be checking your mirrors at least every 15 seconds (if not more). So you should see the biker.
Also, the motorcyclist can make use of acceleration to minimise exposure to danger. (which to the car driver seems like a bike speeding past - but its actually a crucial motorcycle safety technique when used in low density traffic).
In the last resort, if you really are, as your post almost implies, the kind of feckless driver who does not check his mirrors regularly and, worse, changes lane without checking mirrors - hopefully i will have spotted you in advance. If i dont, and you cut me up cause of your idiocy, then i should be able to avoid you. (motorcycling rule: always have a plan A, a plan B and an escape route from other traffic - including pedestrians and cyclists.). Rest assured that, if i have the time and opportunity, at the next traffic lights i will politely inform you of your stupidity.
but, anyway, i hope you're
I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
So you're basically saying, "exercising intelligent caution is more important than blindly obeying the rules". I don't actually disagree with that. Problem is, most drivers don't do either. A lot of drivers think that they're driving within safe limits, but are actually just fooling themselves. One indication of this self-delusion is the anger with which they greet the slightest suggestion that they're doing anything wrong.