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High Resolution DVI Support for Plasma Displays?
spongman asks: "I'm trying to find the best way to connect a computer to a 50" (or larger) plasma display. The display I'm currently looking at is the NEC 50MP2 because its native resolution (1366x768) is high enough to meet my needs and it can display a 16:9 image with square pixels without scaling, but I'm open to suggestions for similarly-capable displays.
I also want to use a DVI connection between the computer and the display to reduce interference and noise.
The problem I'm having is that I can't work out which video cards support this resolution (or something near it) over a DVI connection. The only card I've found that seems to support this is the PixelPerfect from Imagine Graphics in the UK, but it's based on somewhat old technology (Kyro2) and I'd like a few more choices if possible.
Does anyone have experience getting their video card connected to a plasma display over DVI at native resolution?"
That is the only combination I know that will use all of an HDTV's resolution. And it has to be and 8500. The lower end versions wont cut it.
I suppose which card would be good depends on what the purpose of this is -- specifically, are you going to need killer 3D performance out of this display, or is it going to be a home theatre PC sort of setup?
You might want to take a look at the Matrox cards if you don't need stunning 3d - my G450 supports a wide range of high resolutions, and it is available with DVI-out.
--saint
Mine has a DVI connector on it. Don't know about your specific resolution, but mine supports resolutions up to 2048 x something.
from the displays-of-insane-resolution dept.
...because its native resolution (1366x768) is high enough to meet my needs...
Huh? Insane?
I'm intrested in how this will turn out. My question is why plasma as opposed to a huge crt? is it the flat screen? I thought crt was better quality anyway.
Learn it. Know it. Be it.
That's easy
I had a similar problem when I originally got my SGI 1600sw flat panel LCD a few years back. It ran at 1600x1024 native, and to accomodate this unstandard (at the time) resolution, you were forced into using one of their "pre-approved" graphics cards. At the time they were fairly decent, but eventually they got old, without being able to upgrade, since the default connection was OpenLDI digital (not DVI), you had to buy an adapter (Usually out of stock and $600 retail) or get a new monitor.
If there are enough monitors made at 16:9 instead of 16:10 in time 16:9 resolutions will be standardized. So if you plan to use this monitor for a few years, I think eventually you wont have any graphics cards problems. But until then, I would say the GeForce cards are very accomodating to non standard resolutions. I cant say much for 16:9 but I know that all VisionTek GeFroce2+ cards and certainly 4+ cards support 16:10 resolutions. GeForce2 was one of the few vendors that also supported 16:10 when there were only a handful of monitors running at that resolution.
If you cant find anything that runs 16:9 and that monitor can rescale to 16:10 then I think a decent Geforce4 wont be much of a compromise. Plus, you should be able to hook up your DVD directly to it and still have it hooked up to your PC so you can still watch your movies at 16:9.
My next monitor is the SGI F220 which im ordering next week, and lucky me I can get a GeForce4 to render, now I just have to find out if its compatible with non-SGI systems. ^_^
Do a search for "powerstrip" on download.com. For certain sure, you can use an ATI 8500, or GeForce 4 anything.
(Lots of other cards will work, but these are the only ones I can personally attest to.)
ATI sells a DVI -> component video adapter for their cards (may work with other brands, too, but I have no idea) that claims to support 480i/p, 720p, and 1080i. I doubt that most cards could output an interlaced signal natively for any resolution, but it would make sense that the ATI cards could output the 720p signal directly throught the DVI connector without the adapter in place.
I'm not sure about your specific application, but Matrox has always been pretty progressive with DVI support. I think they have at least one model of the G400 series with two DVI ports, and the new I think the new Parhelia card has three.
If i can remember correcty, some ATI cards support DVI to either 1280x768 or 1280x1024, can't remeber which tho,, unfortunatly, i'm still stuck in the analog world :(
Reece,
save yourself a couple grand and get a wall projector
My ATI All-In-Wonder Rage 128 Pro supports the 16:9 aspect ratio; however, it doesn't have DVI. You could use it plus a DVIator from Dr. Bott's ...
***
I use PowerStrip to control my video card. If you get a card with DVI out, this program should support it. It supports about any card under any O/S, too. In the Display Configuration, you should be able to configure custom resolutions. One of the presets is already 1360x768. A few more clicks should get you to 1366x768.
I'm the Devil the Windows users warned you about.
lol, yah me too :),
Reece,
I cannot find the article, but I read once that it was proven that it is easier, and people actually do better on smaller vs. larger tvs for video console games. If I can dig the article up I will post it.
Almost anything new (and decent) these days will support up to 1600x1200 with the DVI interface (eg the Geforce4). Watch out though, the max resolution of the cards are often not supported with DVI.
... The NEC can do P-I-P so you can eg. watch TV and the computer at the same time. I've dreamed of attaching 2x of the Panasonic 52", but cannot justify spending $25000 on monitors.
Using Powerstrip (etc) as others have mentioned should get you the native screen resolution.
Lucky guy
when the website says:
PC Signal Compatibility:
VGA 640x480 @ 60,72,75,85,100, 120 Hz
SVGA 800x600 @ 56, 60, 72,75,85,100,120 Hz
XGA 1024x768 @ 60,70,75, 85, 100 Hz
SXGA 1280x1024 @ 60, 75, 85 Hz
UXGA 1600x1200 @ 60, 65, 70, 75 Hz
WideVGA 848x480, 852 x 480 @ 60Hz
WideXGA 1360 x 768 @60Hz
Macintosh Compatibility:
640x480, 832x624, 1024x768, 1152x870
cant you just settle for a slightly different res?
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
Aha...was just thinking about it and it's Nethack, right? I remember when a local BBS got a gopher net connection, and I gophered to a site that would email you files : I got Nethack as quite a few emails that I had to manually cat together to uudecode them. Ah, the fun old times.
Though, I could never understand why it was called "Net"hack when it seemed to be entirely single player.
Then when it was over, we folded up the screen and put the projector in it's cabinet, and all that space was reclaimed. If you had a permanent projector mounted strategically, and one of those automatic screens that roll up into the ceiling, it would be pretty sweat.
Just throwing random ideas at ya...
First, to answer your question:
:)
Any modern ATI or Nvidia card should work just fine. Plasma displays are very sensitive with regards to having their exact resolution displayed, so use a program like Powerstrip to make sure Windows starts up with the exact resolution and refresh rate your plasma monitor requires.
If you haven't bought a plasma display yet, then I recommend you think twice about getting it. There are some really low cost monitors out there that can interface pretty well with a PC. Take, for example, the JVC AV-48WP30, at around $1,700 you can have a 48" HDTV that supports DVI(*). People are using this TV with their PC's at 1280x720, or 1920x540. There are also new 42" (HLM427W, I believe) and 50" (HLM507W) Samsung HDTV's that support DVI and are based on badass DLP technology (I heard this set is particularly sharp when connected to a PC). These Samsung DLP's are MUCH cheaper than other comparable sets, something like $3,000-$4,000.
Note, however, that while the theoretical HDTV resolution is 1920x1080i, very, very few HDTV's can display a discernable pixel grid at this resolution. Still, the price difference between a modern rear-projection HDTV and a plasma monitor is significant (you can buy a decent used car with the money you save).
Here are some very helpful links, I used them extensively when I was shopping around for a new set:
AV Science Forum: great forum with lots of very knowledgeable people. Many of them are into using displays like plasmas/HDTV's with their PC's.
Home Theater Spot: similar to the above, different layout. Another great, helpful site.
(*) Regarding these DVI connectors - yes, these are the new DVI connections used to transfer encrypted data to prevent people from copying future HD broadcasts. It is often documented that you can't use this DVI interface with your computer's DVI out, but more often than not this is not true and it will work just fine. However, ask around on the above sites about your particular DVI TV before buying an expensive DVI cable.
Whaaaa. Your saying people do better on smaller tvs?
I have an old 13inch and a newer 21 inch tv. I do better on my 21 inch tv. the 13inch one is just too small.
When i go home, my parents have a 36 inch flat screen tv, but I play about the same wethers its on the 21 or 36 inch.
Ever try and play a split screen game on a tv smaller than 21"? its freakin impossible
First, you nedd to check if the manufacturer requires a single or dual TDMS input. A single DVI TDMS channel maxes out at 165Mhz. 1600x1200 @ 60hz with a 5% blanking overhead is about the limit of a single channel DVI connection. IF your device requires more then 5% of the total bandwith for blanking (and many do) then both the available bandwith and resolution drops. Depending on the required refresh rate and the blanking bandwith(time) required by the device, you may be exceeding a single TDMS output. Second, you need a card with a TDMS that will output the full 165Mhz of bandwith. Some low end devices will not do this. For instance, the integrated GeForce2 TDMS had problems (maxed out at like 800x600), requiring an aftermarket TDMS be integrated on the card. This is why some large format LCD displays support 1280x1024 in DVI and 13xxish x something or another in analog mode (a samsung as I recall) for more information see http://www.ddwg.org Paul Driver
Although my ATI 8500 should be able to drive my HDTV-ready monitor at 1920x1200 resolution, I've yet to be able to coax the X driver into delivering that resolution through the DVI interface.
... indeed, I suspect you could easilly coax that out of an ATI 8500 or ATI 7500 under XFree 4.2, and almost certainly if you use ATI's drivers.
However, using the Nvidia binary-only X 4.2 drivers I have no trouble driving the monitor in 1920x1280 24-bit color resolution with a GeForce4 Ti4600.
Such a setup should work fine for a relatively low-resolution plasma like the one you are considering, at 1366x768
If you're going to spend that kind of money on a plasma, though, I'd wait a couple of years, until they support true 1080i at least. 768 lines of resolution is analogous to 1024x768 resolution on a computer (yes, I know you get more horizontal pixels in a 16:9 format, my monitor is 16:10 so I'm intimately familiar with that), so keep in mind that you are buying an expensive product whose resolution will likely be disappointing to you in a couple or three years.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
The quality of plasma displays is low enough that you almost certainly won't be able to tell the difference. Just get one with a standard VGA input. If you need to run the VGA cable a long distance, Blackbox.com offers boxes that let you use standard VGA with long cables. If you really want DVI, get a DVI-to-VGA converter and put it next to the screen. Keep in mind that the signal eventually will be analog anyway.
This really scared me at the first look. DVI standed for something named DeVice Independent at good old days, when everyone still used TeX to format her thesis. Oh, just how sweet were the days, when you knew every nice girl will someday need you, the local TeXpert.
Now we're back to troff again...
--
A member of the first GPL-ed software project in my country
there are a lot of cards out there that will do 1600x1200 or better via dvi.
i know for a fact there are geforce2mx cards that can push out 1920x1200. search around for samsung 240t users and you'll find plenty of hi-res (1920x1200) dvi cards.
however, unless you plan on keeping your computer pretty close to your display, i think your bigger problem will be the length limitations of dvi cabling: 3-5 meters.
Drfrank is right. I use powerstrip and its an excellent reccomendation for this question. I sont have any points right now so someone mod this up. Hope that mod gets screwed in metamod.
about $600 for the Sony's. not cheap.
HDTV resolution is 1920 x 1080 ..
.. whenever ur buying a so called HDTV ask to find out the actual resolution and make sure it's 1920 x 1080. Here's a tip if you're not paying thousands of dollars ($7k up) you're probably not getting HDTV.
.. will it ever be a reality?
There are MANY MANY manufacturers selling TVs with SVGA or XGA resolutions trying to pass it off as HDTV.
Be extremely careful of this
What happens? People buy it thinking thats true HDTV and think HDTV is no big deal and a waste of money. And in turn the concept of HDTV gets screwed.
Honest business practices
With power strip you can dial up any resolution that you want and create a profile for it. Take a look at the nice PNG screen shot and see for yourself.
I have an idea. POWERSTRIP!
I know for a fact that Powerstrip will allow you to set the video card to custom, nonstandard resolutions. Try than and a standard Radeon 8500 (you can get them at pricewatch for $109, a stock 8500 at 275/275). Excellent 3d performance and tons of features.
However, I'm not entirely certain that the DVI output is compatable. In all likelihood it is.
Hey, You actually have an advantage with that 13 inch. If you play on that for awile split-screen, you have to learn the levels faster... where as I with my 27 Inch have the abiliy and urge to enjoy the true ambiance, and worry less about the game play. That is one of the reasons why my poor friend always kicked some major booty, the other being that he has like five siblings to play against.
If you can afford an $8000 plasma screen, you can afford to blow a few hundred dollars on graphics cards and buy one of each :)
Post your question in the Plasma forum on AVSForum.com
Now come on. What the fu^H^H heck do you expect from us? The nice thing about high-end equipment of any sort is that you usually buy it through a very experienced salesman. Even if you can find a better deal somewhere else, just get the rundown from a good salesman. You might have to try a few, but it's not bad because you can easily tell if someone knows what they're talking about. The right guy (or gal if you're offended by that) is bound to know more than most of us.
Check out http://www.avsforum.com
I just baught my self a NEC 42MP3 plasma, its awesom. The guys at avs form, gave me lots of tips etc on setting it up....
Dan
A few months back I was setting up a Plasma screen for a client, connected to just a Geforce 4, the big problem I found immediatly was the connector! DVI is not just one plug!
:( What I had to do after talking to both an A/V suplier and Pioneer was use a DVI-I to VGA cable as no DVI-I -> DVI-D exists! Apparantly the quality loss is insignificant, but it just didnt feel right. :( Still it did look brilliant at 1024x resolution!
It turned out the Plasma screen (Pioneer I think) has a DVI-D connector and the GeForce (and every other video card I checked) has a DVI-I connector, they are not compatible!
From what I was told by various sources is that DVI-D is purely digital, where as DVI-I is part analogue, I never had time to find out more, but if anyone can clarify this and why it would be something to take into consideration.
Just found this info on DVI connectors: All About DVI
Hope this helps..
I've been around the video industry since Motorola came out with the "works in drawer TV" in the 60's. As far as I'm concerned you should get as far away from an NEC product as you can. They seem to work under the guidelines of "build it, then dump it." They have designed and produced so many IC's and products, then dumped them before the end of life of the product that they should be prosecuted. JUNK,JUNK,JUNK! They are the epitome of the phrase "Japanese Junk".
I'd sacrifice my ex-girlfriend to the monitor god to get one of those plasma displays.
Two birds with one stone.
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
Plus awsome quality of course.
My NOTEBOOK has higher resolution than that.
I'm looking into getting my first LCD display for my PC. One thing I find puzzling: How come every (?) 15" stand alone display out there has only 1024x768 pixels, when notebook makers seem to have no problem with giving you 1600x1200 on the same area? (I'm thinking specifically of Dell's "UXGA TFT" displays). Even budget notebooks from Dell (sub $2000 range) give 1400x1050. I would have thought the technology would be exactly the same, no?
Hmmm... I've seen bigger and better quality LCD panels from Saumsung, and probably cheaper too. Check out the Samsung SM181T, SM191T and SM210T. These screens have some great features such as 250cd/m2, Contrast 500:1, View-angle 170/170 (H/V), Response Time 25ms, Analog & DVI-D Digital connectors etc... Make sure your new LCD screen has a good Contrast setting and has a good response time (if you intend to play games on it.)
Has anyone else noticed that most recent movies are being released with an aspect ratio of 2.35 instead of 1.85? this means all those beautiful 16:9 TVs will have to letterbox the 2.35s if you don't want to streatch the picture out vertically.
I think that kind of sucks.
I don't know what you'll be paying for the SGI display, but since it hasn't exactly been the budget brand earlier I think the similar-spec Apple displays might be a cheaper alternative.
In short, Apple has a 1600x1024@22" display for $2499 and a 1920x1200@23" display for $3499.
Apple has a custom display connector for which you'll need a $149 adapter, but the proprietary format is quite useful: a single cable will carry power, DVI and USB to the display. This means that you can hide a noisy six fan Athlon beast in your closet (up to 15ft away with an extension) and only have one cable coming to desk, with your keyboard, mouse and speakers attached to the display. Neat!
Marko Karppinen
Who wants to pay $1000 for a 15" LCD? I'm sure it would cost a lot more to support the higher resolutions.
ATI has been a leader in offering multiple types of resolutions. I would highly suggest looking at the Radeon 9700 Pro and see if it will support this resolution. If not currently, it will eventually as this is only a driver issue. ATI would consider adding this to their driver to allow Plasma screens be properly visible.
*Headline News* censorship shuts down the Internet! More at 6PM!
I was over at my bosses house last year and was playing quake3 on a 50' plasma screen. He was using a Geforce 3. He also had the exact same setup in his downstairs studio. So it would probably be safe to say that a Geforce4 would support it too.
A Geforce4 also supports dual monitors. I should tell my boss to get one and run dual plasmas.Quake3 @ 2732x768 would look pretty funny im sure. The quake3 engine is really adept at playing in unstandard resolutions.
CRT is better quality than LCD, for sure...
But plasma?
I saw a plasma screen at LG the other day.... seen it for the good part of a year, every day.
It's the most stunning video quality I've EVER seen, anywhere. Crips, accurate, high-res, wicked contrast, you can see it from a mile away in the mall, insane viewing angle.
It costs about $30,000 though.
If I had to guess, I'd say that a plasma screen can probably be made to be superior to a CRT.
Not cheaply.
Projector.
Go get a high end LCD or DLP projector. Do they make them in HDTV resolutions yet?
I should have been a bit more specific with my question.
Firstly I want to use the DVI input on the display because I want to get the highest fidelity possible. I also want to be able to use the natvie resolution of the screen because I don't want the screen to have to scale the video image. The problem with using the DVI interface is that the DVI spec allows the screen to tell the video card which DVI resolutions it supports, and even though the screen may have a native resolution of 1366x768 (16:9) it may not advertise that mode to the card, and even if it does the driver or the card may not support that mode.
I know that most DVI-capable video cards will support video modes larger than that of the screen (1600x1200, for example), but as far as I know the selection is limited when the DVI interface is being used.
I know of the PowerStrip utility and its ability to create custom resolutions, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the display is capable of being driven at those resolutions.
Hi,
The Matrox drivers (at least up to two years ago...) have a monitor description file in text form. You can define your own monitor there. I did this for a workstation monitor with a resolution like yours and 60 Hz around 4 years ago (worked with Millenium I,II and Mystique cards). It was pretty easy, the monitor config file even worked with OS/2.
If you're interested, I can try to dig in my backups, to find that config file.
Marc Hoeschele, Germany
I have a dell 2000FP LCD monitor that I'm using with an analog input right now. The image looks fine at 1600x1200 with my old matrox millenium II card.
I'm curious to see if anyone has gotten the 2000FP's DVI input to work with more modern 3D cards at 1600x1200 in Linux. In particular, I'd like to know which cards actually work at this resolution in DVI mode. Thanks!
/ \
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign for peace
x
/ \
Be careful with slight incompatibilities between DVI specs ...
As an example, I have 5 pieces of equipment:
1) Apple Cinema Display 22" (ADC connector)
2) PowerMac G4/466 (GeForce2 MX video board w/ADC)
3) PowerBook G4/800 (w/DVI-I output)
4) Sun Blade 1000 w/XVR-1000 video board (w/DVI-D output)
5) Sun 24" LCD (1920x1200 native; DVI-D & VGA in)
Now, ANY of the equipment can drive my Apple Cinema Display fine (I have the Apple DVI-to-ADC converter also to support the PBook & SunBlade).
The Sun display looks GREAT on the Sun Blade, but it's awful on the PowerBook. The PBook supports its native resolution at 1920x1200, but I get all sorts of interference on the screen. Bits of "static" all over the display. If I use the VGA connector, it looks fine.
And it's not my display or PBook, because I've swapped both with other people @ my office and we all have this problem.
GRR... anyone know what the F___ is going on?
Why would I get that static? Now, an interesting point, the Sun docs for the 24" say that it only supports DVI-D and *NOT* DVI-I. The PBook is DVI-I. I thought that using a DVI-D cable with a machine with DVI-I output would act just like DVI-I (just ignoring the analog pins)?
The cable I'm using doesn't have the 4 analog pins around the "crosshair" so to speak.
Anyone have this LCD? Has anyone seen this behavior before?!?!
--NBVB
I'm late to this discussion, but hopefully this will get modded up before someone spends $9K for this display. Nobody has pointed out the most critical bit. The NEC 50MP2 will not support native rate over DVI. There is no way to get a 1:1 pixel mapping via DVI on the NEC 50MP2!
I had a similar application and decided to go with the Pioneer 503CMX because of the native rate support. The 503CMX is one of the only 50" displays that won't mess with the native rate image and directly display each pixel.
NEC specs say they will support the native resolution, but they actually use the internal scaler before the image is displayed. This prevents 1366x768 images from being directly mapped to pixels. Instead you get something "close" to what you want.
There is very long threads on the difficulty of getting most Plasmas to do native rate over DVI at AVS Forum.
Search for "Native rate dvi nec 50mp2" at http://www.avsforum.com for all the threads on this problem with this display.
Yes, the display's just a display. These unusual resolutions called out for the Mac are the historical resolutions for Apple's non-multisync monitors. Those resolutions are still supported today, but on modern Macs (since the mid-90s), support for multisync monitors and most of the PC standard resolutions are included as well.