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Dell To Offer Windows-Less PCs

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the backdoor-in-the-fine-print dept.

An anonymous reader submits: "As a follow-up to the Slashdot story Dell No Longer Selling Systems w/o Microsoft OS, News.com is reporting that Dell will sell systems without Windows. Microsoft's new licensing terms stipulate they can't sell PC's without an OS (hence the removal of the NoOS option), so Dell will be offering FreeDOS as an option for some computers. It will come with the computer, but not installed, so that users may install any other OS that they wish. It's a very creative interpretation of Microsoft's licensing terms, and one I imagine Microsoft didn't have in mind."

31 of 547 comments (clear)

  1. The obvious move by msgmonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Who else could n't see this comming? Having said that I was expecting it to be some kind of Linux distro.

    1. Re:The obvious move by joib · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I guess they wanna charge you a few bucks extra for installing linux. As is said in the article, this is mainly aimed at big corporations who install their own stuff anyway, so they don't want to pay extra for a linux installation they probably won't use anyway.
      As to why use freedos instead of some 1-floppy linux distro, who knows?
      Maybe they don't wanna tarnish Linux reputation (which perhaps would hurt their server biz) as "that toy crappy thing which is included with every pc to circumwent MS contracts and everybody throws away anyway".

    2. Re:The obvious move by JPriest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If they wanted to make MS mad, they would have shipped with Linux. This is Dell taking a stand, but not fighting MS. I think this was a good move on Dell's part.

      --
      Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
  2. Go Dell! by rknop · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm heartened to see them doing the right thing-- continuing to be willing to sell customers completely legal things that they want to buy even if that is what another very powerful company doesn't want.

    On the other hand, it's utterly ridiculous that Dell would even have to perform this end-run around Microsoft's licensing terms in the first place.

    Anybody want to place bets on how long it will be before Microsoft changes their licencing terms again to prevent Dell from what they're doing now? (Or perhaps M$ will just tell Dell that they've decided not to licence Windows to them at all; they've used those sorts of threats in the past.)

    (Who appointed Microsoft as the regulatory agency for the computer industry anyway?)

    -Rob

    1. Re:Go Dell! by Col.+Klink+(retired) · · Score: 4, Funny

      > Who appointed Microsoft as the regulatory agency for the computer industry anyway?

      Bill Gates.

      --

      -- Don't Tase me, bro!

    2. Re:Go Dell! by Coplan · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I'm not so sure that M$ will change their licensing this time. I think they've been under a lot of pressure as of late. I think they have realized that people have this view of the "Evil Empire" and they have been making some PR moves lately that might make small steps to make them look more friendly than they always have been. Remember that issue where that guy discovered security issues in the XBox? MS didn't step in there to prevent the paper from being published. I think MS wants people to believe that they care about the end user.

      On the other hand, if they were to try to throw Dell under the bus, and change their licensing...not only would they loose a lot of respect from the consumers, but they'd loose the respect of Dell. I don't believe for a minute that Dell makes this move to spite MS. Dell is a business as well, and if their consumers aren't going to use Windows, they're more likely to buy a computer without it. Even if Dell were to offer said machines for cheaper than the windows-toting counter parts, Dell would surely make more money off of each computer, and not have to pay royalties to MS for that particular machine.

      It's great that Dell found this loophole. If MS were to do anything, I'd bet that Dell would make a big stink, the consumers would make a big stink, and MS would look more evil than it already does. Dell is large enough of a company now that it can actually get away with things like this under the shadow of MS. MS is on touchy ground...this is the OS war they never thought they'd have to deal with, and they're fighting companies that offer their products for free. It's all about image now -- they have to listen to consumers, they have to listen to retailers, and they have to end up looking good to win.

      On a side note, keep in mind the average linux user (who might potentially buy a machine without an OS). Chances are, if they buy from Dell, they're buying large quantities for a company that will run Linux. The minor difference in cost isn't always worth the extra trouble...so it doesn't impact a corporation nearly as much to buy a machine, rip the OS and start over. They practically do that anyhow. The typical consumer who uses linux is likely the same type of consumer who builds his own machines...so he's less likely to buy a Dell for his Linux box anyhow. Just an observation.

    3. Re:Go Dell! by markmoss · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think a lot of people are just amazed that M$ has the clout to force another company into things like this.

      That's what the antitrust suit should have been all about...

    4. Re:Go Dell! by rseuhs · · Score: 5, Informative
      In real life, MS did very little.

      IBM gave them the OS-monopoly on preinstalled IBM-PCs back in 1981.

      After that, they just followed the industry and were late on every computer related motion there was. The GUI, multitasking the transition to 32 and 64 bits are things where Microsoft was always very late. Bill Gates assured us in 1993 that he's not interested in the Internet for example.

      That's pretty much it. Everybody would have made billions with that monopoly. actually Microsoft are not evil genuises, they are just lucky and pretty incompetent.

    5. Re:Go Dell! by argStyopa · · Score: 5, Funny

      I thought this is what the /. community believed in? If you buy a product, since you've paid for it, you can do anything you like with it.

      Why shouldn't the same hold true for MS? If they've bought the Justice Dept, then they can use it as they wish.

      Is a government agency open-source or GPL?

      --
      -Styopa
  3. Dell should take the moral high ground here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny
    Instead of doing what Microsoft does, and interpreting every contract to the letter, Dell should have gone with the SPIRIT of the contract, not the letter. If everyone started to do this, the world would be a much better place.


    This interpretation of their license agreement can only lead to more money for the lawyers!

    1. Re:Dell should take the moral high ground here. by sphealey · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Under the agreement with the DoJ MS agreed to sell the software with the same terms for all major resellers.

      Thus if that agreemenet are upheld Dell has nothing to fear.

      If there were an enforcement agent to monitor and punish violations of the "spirit" of the DOJ agreeement, this might mean something. Unfortunately, the DOJ has pretty much signaled to Microsoft that it is "slap on the wrist and we are out of here" time. Organizations far less crafty and far less motivated than Microsoft have figured out how to evade this type of restriction in the past; I would guess that it will be about 15 minutes after the lawsuit is completed that M$ will be back in Mr. Dell's office with an offer he can't refuse.

      sPh

  4. Two key points from the article by klieber · · Score: 5, Informative

    1. The systems will cost just as much as if you'd ordered them with Windows in the first place.

    2. They're aimed primarily at large companies and won't, for the most part, be available to consumers via Dell's web site. (their workstations will, but not the generic line of optiplexes.

    Given point 1, I fail to see how this is a Big Deal, other than the obvious snub at Microsoft.

    --kurt

    --
    Gentoo Linux http://gentoo.org/
    1. Re:Two key points from the article by gsfprez · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >it is a pity that you don't get a price break for not
      >having to pay for Windows. On the other hand, I'd be
      >just as happy to know that Microsoft wasn't getting
      >paid a tax out of my money for purchasing a computer.

      I would agree - except that we don't know this. After all - if the computers are the same cost - where's the extra money going?

      Its an assumption on our part that as part of the new licensing rules that MS has set up with Dell, HPaq, etc. that they don't pay MS for every box that goes out the door. Perhapse that IS part of the new deal with MS - every box out the doors of Dell means $10 to Redmond, else its $MSRP (what's that? $199 for XPlite?) per actual box leaving the OEM?

      In fact - the fact that you DON'T get a price break is really stupid. Who actually gives a shit if you get a copy of Windows? Gimme one, i don't care. I'll just dump it in the garbage, use it for kindling, make a cool coaster... whatever..

      I just don't want to pay for it.. or in the case of businesses and colleges running under MS License 6.0, I don't want to pay for it twice.

      So really - if i'm getting a computer - and i can get it with Windows and without, and its the same price either way.... why WOULDN'T you want to get a copy?

      --
      guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
    2. Re:Two key points from the article by renehollan · · Score: 5, Interesting
      The systems will cost just as much as if you'd ordered them with Windows in the first place.

      Are you sure?

      At my last place of employment, we ordered about six Dell PCs for Linux-based development platforms. They came with a Microsoft OS (NT, I think). I called Dell, and they were quite happy to credit us about US$65 per license for every unopened OS installation media package that we sent back, and took our word that we'd reformat the hard disk without ever booting into the OS that was pre-installed.

      It certainly improved my opinion of Dell at the time.

      --
      You could've hired me.
  5. Hey, NEC is also doing that! by chip_hk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have get a few new NEC PCs that are having FreeDOS installed, too.

    That just happened a month ago.

  6. Thank God by brennan73 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Considering that most vendors won't sell you a PC without a Windows license, I was beginning to wonder just what the hell the point of the Microsoft Select licenses was. I mean, wasn't it supposed to be that by buying them in volume, we'd get a discount? Wasn't this discount kind of, erm, compromised by the second license MS wants you to buy with new hardware?

    This should have been a provision of any settlement the govt. accespted in the first place, but at least someone is doing it on their own. If Dell makes this stick, hopefully others will follow.

    -brennan

    1. Re:Thank God by Peyna · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I bet the local shop down the road from you would be more than happy to sell you a PC without a Windows license. Or you could just buy the parts or a kit online and build it yourself. Any monkey with a screwdriver and half a brain can assemble a computer. If you don't want to do the work, pay the extra few cents for the superior service and quality you will most likely get from the mom&pop shop down the road.

      --
      What?
  7. Re:What a heap of crap? by rknop · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why not FreeDOS? It doesn't matter. It's just a token.

    How much space does FreeDOS take? Perhaps only one CD, or less?

    It's pretty clear that Dell does not expect anybody (or much of anybody) to actuall install the included FreeDOS. The FreeDOS is just a maneuver to get around a loophole in Microsoft's licencing agreement. Now they can say, hey, we included an OS, we're abiding by their terms. What they're really doing is selling an OS-less PC, plus an extra CD that adds very little to their costs and might even be useful to a tiny fraction of their customers.

    (Heck, I'd rather get a FreeDOS PC than the useless Windows driver disks I get with every piece of hardware I buy. Even when I've installed the drivers on my wife's Windows box so that she can use the printers over the network, I discover they're broken and I have to get updated drivers from the web anyway.)

    -Rob

  8. I can't believe they'd spin it this way. by Latent+IT · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here's a line of crap from the article:

    The new policy exists to prevent piracy and to better track OS shipments.

    My ass. It exists to sell MORE MICROSOFT PRODUCTS. I'm not even normally a MSFT basher, but even someone completely asleep at the switch should see something wrong with that line.

  9. Re:Why not Linux then? by Dalroth · · Score: 5, Insightful
    If they're going to offer the software, without it being installed, why FreeDOS and not Linux? Is anyone actually going to use FreeDOS?


    No, and that's the point. They don't have to support it. Linux is big, complicated, sometimes quite painfull to use. Dell most likely does not have the expertise in their call center to handle the influx of support calls a linux installation would cause, so I think this is a very smart move.


    They could, however, partner with a company like Mandrake or Red Hat in the future. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Problem is, even with the party line "call Red Hat for help", they'll still be getting a large volume of Linux calls that they probably don't want right now. Maybe when the economy gets a little better.

  10. Re:Shouldn't n-Series Computers Cost Less? by friedmud · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The reason they dont cost less is you are STILL PAYING for windows - and Dell still pays microsoft for that computer!

    I kid you not! This is just Dell trying to get back into our good graces. It is all a PR stunt - "Look we don't like M$ either!!!!" as they hand MS money under the table.

    Don't take this as a win for all of us alternative OS people. M$ is still getting their cash in spite of being found a monopoly.

    Derek

  11. How to make an impact by div_2n · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sure many of us here probably build our own machines, but if you do plan on buying one of these, do it on the phone. Ask the salesperson if they can ship it with Linux (or your favorite OSOS).

    If they say no, then tell them you want to place a customer request that they offer that because that is what you are going to install anyway and then order it.

    If they get enough requests for it, then maybe they will warm back up to the OSS desktop market.

    Of course, this may have no effect but it doesn't hurt to try.

  12. ./ fooled by a marketing scam by NexusTw1n · · Score: 4, Insightful
    From the article
    The company will not promote the new models heavily, let alone make them easy to purchase. Optiplex n-Series desktops will be available only to customers who buy the desktops in large numbers through Dell's Custom Factory Installation program. Individuals will be able to purchase n-Series Precision workstations, but not Optiplex PCs, via Dell's Web site. The Custom Factory Installation Program allows customers to specify an operating system or have Dell install a customized bundle of software, such as Windows or Red Hat
    If you buy enough boxes from Dell, they'll put any O/S you ask for on it, Linux has been available for quite some time to big customers.

    This "new" PC system, is again only available to big buyers, you won't be able to order single Optiplexes sans Windows from their website.

    Basically this is an old news rehashed as new news marketing droid PR stunt.

    If you want a PC without Windows on it, your best bet is still Walmart.

    --
    It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. --Albert Einstein
  13. Let's face the facts by coryboehne · · Score: 5, Informative

    Microsoft can do pretty much whatever they want and most people and company's just don't really care all that much, however this last move was a bit too far and most definately an example of anti-competitiveness rather than the anti-piracy measure they would have you beleve it to be. However not being able to buy a PC without an OS is not a concern for the mass majority of people. Now, we're all /.'s and we definately care a great deal about this, mostly just because we're all nerds and geeks who like to install an OS for the fun of it, but another perfectly valid reason for our caring (and in my opinion more important) is the fact that it seems Microsoft is trying to be a bully agian and we are all just really, really tired of that position from MS, as a matter of a fact if they started to act decent I might actually have a few good things to say about them.

  14. If the cost is the same... by Enry · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does this mean that MSFT still gets their piece of silver (aka license) for a FreeDOS machine?

  15. I'd rather fight for my refund, just for the fun by gosand · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Well, if they are going to charge the same amount of money as if I had bought Windows installed, I would rather get the system with Windows. Why? For fun.

    I would then proceed to install Linux the first day I got the computer, without ever booting up Windows, and ask for a refund for the software. Others have done it. If they are going to charge me the same amount, then why not prove a point? Worst case, you don't get your refund, which you wouldn't have gotten anyway, but maybe you can get the point across. Best case, you get your point across and maybe get a few bucks for your trouble.

    Not the easiest solution, but it kind of sounds like fun.

    --

    My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

  16. Re:It will be interesting to see Microsoft's react by PolyDwarf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Such a monopoly. I know that justice is supposed to be blind, but I didn't realize that the DoJ was blind, deaf, and dumb all at the same time.


    Actually, I think the word you're looking for is "bought"
  17. Re:Can someone explain please ????? by Kredal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Nah, it's completely legal... These numbers are made up, but they should illistrate the point.

    Microsoft: Tell ya what, Dell. If you promise to only sell computers with our OS, we'll only charge you 30 dollars for a copy.

    Dell: That sounds good. What if we want to seel OS-less or Linux computers.

    Microsoft: Well, then the OEM Price for Windows goes up to 60 dollars each.

    Dell: Ow. I guess I'll just sell computers with an OS installed (Quick, lawyers! make sure the agreement doesn't specify Windows!)

    --
    Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
  18. Re:Shouldn't n-Series Computers Cost Less? by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "I kid you not! This is just Dell trying to get back into our good graces. It is all a PR stunt - "Look we don't like M$ either!!!!" as they hand MS money under the table."

    It's more than a PR stunt. Dell is using FreeDOS as a small doorstop so the door will remain ajar, allowing Linux or whatever other OS they choose to squeeze through in the future.

    Dell does not think anyone will use FreeDOS. They just want to sent the prescedent that they have the ability to ship some other OS with their machines so that they can change this OS when production facilities, support people, developers, drivers, etc are ready.

    If they shipped only windows and then 1 year from now tried to slip Linux in, MSFT would slay them on the spot. Instead, if they ship FreeDOS now, which MSFT knows is know thread, they can SWITCH to linux instead, continuing to do something which they had be doing for many months -- shipping an alternate OS with their PCs.

  19. Good reason for this: cozying up to Red Hat by MtViewGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think the reason why Dell is offering machines without Windows installed is the fact Dell has announced an alliance with Red Hat Software to provide Red Hat Linux on both corporate PC's and servers on Tuesday.

    That way, Dell offers a low-cost alternative to Windows to satisfy increasingly penny-pinching large-volume customers, and Dell chose the Linux distribution that is #1 in the business environment, Red Hat (which has pretty much become the de facto standard for Linux distributions).

  20. how about looking at it like this... by Hooya · · Score: 5, Interesting
    i believe that MS actually asked Dell to ship FreeDOS for one reason and one reason only.

    MS is in the middle of an antitrust trial the core of which is the accusation that MS strongarms OEMs with exclusive deals. Now wouldn't it be convinient for MS to demo the fact that an OEM could indeed *not have to* ship with MS OSs even with the existing licences with MS. Enter Dell and FreeDOS. Who is actually using FreeDOS (well i am but i don't think that's the norm.)? From a shippers perspective Linux/xBSD would have been a better choice because of the market share. If Dell truly wanted to provide alternative OSs for the benefit of consumers wouldn't they pick from the list of OSs that are higher up in market-share-ranked list? ie. since they ship the top ranked OS -- windows -- woulnd't they pick the second next? But then MS wouldn't like that too much now would it? Solution: ship FreeDOS with the machines -- that way people are at least still in the DOS mindset. Then MS goes back to court saying -- "Look, Look, the OEMs can and are shipping machines with other OSs. We didn't strongarm them into exclusivity!! The OEMs *can* choose other OSs and that's not restricted by our *existing* license. The only reason they haven't taken advantage of that is because they didn't want to. Not because we threatened them in any way!"

    So me thinks this idea hatched somewhere in the northwest US. NOT at Dell. Do you really think that if Dell wanted to piss off MS by shipping an alternative OS they would ship FreeDOS as opposed to something with more demand -- linux? Unless of course MS wanted Dell to *ship* (or at least look like they offer) another OS. That OS would have to be close to MSs own. But very very outdated version of MSs own.