Slashdot Mirror
Dell To Offer Windows-Less PCs
An anonymous reader submits: "As a follow-up to the Slashdot story Dell No Longer Selling Systems w/o Microsoft OS, News.com is reporting that Dell will sell systems without Windows. Microsoft's new licensing terms stipulate they can't sell PC's without an OS (hence the removal of the NoOS option), so Dell will be offering FreeDOS as an option for some computers. It will come with the computer, but not installed, so that users may install any other OS that they wish. It's a very creative interpretation of Microsoft's licensing terms, and one I imagine Microsoft didn't have in mind."
Who else could n't see this comming? Having said that I was expecting it to be some kind of Linux distro.
How many lawyers does it take to find a loophole like that?
If they're going to offer the software, without it being installed, why FreeDOS and not Linux? Is anyone actually going to use FreeDOS?
Of all the free OS's out there, why FreeDOS of all things? (Not that there is anything wrong with FreeDOS, it just wouldn't be my first choice for a modern workstation OS).
I'm heartened to see them doing the right thing-- continuing to be willing to sell customers completely legal things that they want to buy even if that is what another very powerful company doesn't want.
On the other hand, it's utterly ridiculous that Dell would even have to perform this end-run around Microsoft's licensing terms in the first place.
Anybody want to place bets on how long it will be before Microsoft changes their licencing terms again to prevent Dell from what they're doing now? (Or perhaps M$ will just tell Dell that they've decided not to licence Windows to them at all; they've used those sorts of threats in the past.)
(Who appointed Microsoft as the regulatory agency for the computer industry anyway?)
-Rob
Tell me I'm being cynical, maybe, but have you ever read even a Microsoft EULA? I mean, they don't just say 'Do not make illegal copies of this disc.' They say things like, 'You may not use this software on more than one computer. Even if the other computer is in a Jaccuzzi. Even on Sundays. Especially if there's a full moon.'
Er, what I mean to say is, why would Microsoft stipulate no OS, but *not* stipulate no Linux, and if they did, why did Dell only figure this out now?
This interpretation of their license agreement can only lead to more money for the lawyers!
Maybe putting (but not installing) Mac OSX would be an even more interesting idea. Even though OSX won't run on PC hardware, it would still be an operating system...!
"May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"
1. The systems will cost just as much as if you'd ordered them with Windows in the first place.
2. They're aimed primarily at large companies and won't, for the most part, be available to consumers via Dell's web site. (their workstations will, but not the generic line of optiplexes.
Given point 1, I fail to see how this is a Big Deal, other than the obvious snub at Microsoft.
--kurt
Gentoo Linux http://gentoo.org/
I have get a few new NEC PCs that are having FreeDOS installed, too.
That just happened a month ago.
Considering that most vendors won't sell you a PC without a Windows license, I was beginning to wonder just what the hell the point of the Microsoft Select licenses was. I mean, wasn't it supposed to be that by buying them in volume, we'd get a discount? Wasn't this discount kind of, erm, compromised by the second license MS wants you to buy with new hardware?
This should have been a provision of any settlement the govt. accespted in the first place, but at least someone is doing it on their own. If Dell makes this stick, hopefully others will follow.
-brennan
We all know why microsoft has that stipulation in their license... basically to force computer manufactures to put out machines with Windows if they wish to put out machines with Windows at all. So, if they wish to continue trying this, then they will have to be more explicit in what operating system they mean. Probably to the point that they say "Sell only PCs with Windows on them." I don't see this happeneing on Microsoft's part because they're not that stupid.
<random flame>
Such a monopoly. I know that justice is supposed to be blind, but I didn't realize that the DoJ was blind, deaf, and dumb all at the same time.
</random flame>
Humorless sig goes here.
Why not FreeDOS? It doesn't matter. It's just a token.
How much space does FreeDOS take? Perhaps only one CD, or less?
It's pretty clear that Dell does not expect anybody (or much of anybody) to actuall install the included FreeDOS. The FreeDOS is just a maneuver to get around a loophole in Microsoft's licencing agreement. Now they can say, hey, we included an OS, we're abiding by their terms. What they're really doing is selling an OS-less PC, plus an extra CD that adds very little to their costs and might even be useful to a tiny fraction of their customers.
(Heck, I'd rather get a FreeDOS PC than the useless Windows driver disks I get with every piece of hardware I buy. Even when I've installed the drivers on my wife's Windows box so that she can use the printers over the network, I discover they're broken and I have to get updated drivers from the web anyway.)
-Rob
Here's a line of crap from the article:
The new policy exists to prevent piracy and to better track OS shipments.
My ass. It exists to sell MORE MICROSOFT PRODUCTS. I'm not even normally a MSFT basher, but even someone completely asleep at the switch should see something wrong with that line.
What they're really doing is selling an OS-less PC, plus an extra CD that adds very little to their costs and might even be useful to a tiny fraction of their customers.
..as opposed to a couple of CDs (Linux) which would be very useful to a lot of users?
The reason they dont cost less is you are STILL PAYING for windows - and Dell still pays microsoft for that computer!
I kid you not! This is just Dell trying to get back into our good graces. It is all a PR stunt - "Look we don't like M$ either!!!!" as they hand MS money under the table.
Don't take this as a win for all of us alternative OS people. M$ is still getting their cash in spite of being found a monopoly.
Derek
Sure many of us here probably build our own machines, but if you do plan on buying one of these, do it on the phone. Ask the salesperson if they can ship it with Linux (or your favorite OSOS).
If they say no, then tell them you want to place a customer request that they offer that because that is what you are going to install anyway and then order it.
If they get enough requests for it, then maybe they will warm back up to the OSS desktop market.
Of course, this may have no effect but it doesn't hurt to try.
unless you're working for a nice large company who deals w/ dell, and will let you in on their contract. besides, you're still paying for it, you're just not getting it.
N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said.
they're not even avoiding the "tax"! the article also states that these are only available for LARGE corporate accounts, you and i won't be able to order them through dell.com. nice pr move dell, but you've still gotta let us order a pc w/o the M$ OS. I don't want it, and I don't need it!
Probably because, technically speaking, Linux is just a kernel and not a full-fledged OS.
I'd imagine that most Linux users will want to pick their favorite distro, too. A few might want to custom compile their own kernel.
FreeDOS gives the user just enough power to connect to a site where they can download the most recent ISO of their choice.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
My suggestion to Judge Jackson was that Microsoft be required to publish the terms of all OEM contracts three years after they take effect. Too bad he didn't listen ;-(
sph
MS first? Please. MS is a giant of a company with lots of $$$ but keeping a reseller like Dell happy has got to be pretty high on their list. And, for all you conspiracy types, it's probably just another piece of MS's grand strategy to beat the anti-trust lawsuit...:)
Would it? I'm not so sure. I suspect that the bulk of their customers will be people who really want OS-less PCs. Even if they're installing Linux, they will install it themselves. Indeed, probably most of the units sold will be going to people building clusters and such, where they have some uniform method of installing the OS everywhere. Anything included with the computer is just useless.
Mind you, it would be nice if Dell started selling desktop Linux systems, with Linux preinstalled and working for the home user. But that's not what this is. Dell has customers who want to be many OSless PCs, and Microsoft was trying to tell Dell that they had to sell Windows to all those customers even though the customers wanted nothing. This is Dell's way of getting around Microsofts terms while still being technically in complaince with the Law of Microsoft.
-Rob
This "new" PC system, is again only available to big buyers, you won't be able to order single Optiplexes sans Windows from their website.
Basically this is an old news rehashed as new news marketing droid PR stunt.
If you want a PC without Windows on it, your best bet is still Walmart.
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. --Albert Einstein
It's a very creative interpretation of Microsoft's licensing terms, and one I imagine Microsoft didn't have in mind."
Do you really think that Microsoft didn't think of this possibility? Do you really think that amongst all of their lawyers, advertising people, etc. they couldn't think of an outcome such as this?
Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if Dell went to Microsoft and asked them what the other options were, and Microsoft told them that this WAS one of them!
useless Windows driver disks I get with every piece of hardware I buy [...] discover they're broken and I have to get updated drivers from the web anyway
Yes, quit shipping those driver disks. After all, I'm just going to download new drivers... er... and how, exactly, is that going to work for network cards, motherboards, or other critical pieces of the computer?
Honestly, I recommend you buy better hardware, from companies that don't have so many driver problems. I generally don't bother downloading new drivers unless I'm having an issue with the old ones -- or the new ones are substantially faster. And, funny, the drivers that come with the hardware generally work too. But, again, I'm willing to pay a couple bucks more for stuff that works right out of the box. My time is worth far more than fiddling with crap for hours to make it work.
Isn't this kind of B.S. that the anti-trust case is about? What kind of software vendor tells a PC maker they can't sell a PC without speciific software included?
This is the kind of thing that makes me hope that M$ gets spanked clear into the middle of next year by Judge Kollar-Kotelly.
The most charitable thing I can say about Micro$oft is that they could be so much more than the festering abscess they've become if it weren't for their blind imperialism and obsession with maintaining a hegemony.
Vortran out
Knowledge is like ignorance.. too much can be just as bad as not enough.
How many can you afford?
Berto
Yes, quit shipping those driver disks. After all, I'm just going to download new drivers... er... and how, exactly, is that going to work for network cards, motherboards, or other critical pieces of the computer?
Honestly, I recommend you buy better hardware, from companies that don't have so many driver problems. I generally don't bother downloading new drivers unless I'm having an issue with the old ones -- or the new ones are substantially faster. And, funny, the drivers that come with the hardware generally work too. But, again, I'm willing to pay a couple bucks more for stuff that works right out of the box. My time is worth far more than fiddling with crap for hours to make it work.
You completely and utterly miss my point, but at least you got to rant, so you got something out of it.
I don't think they should stop shipping the driver disks; sometimes they are necessary sure. However, they have always been completely useless to me. Just as the FreeDOS disk will be useless to most people who buy these Dell PCs. My point is, therefore it's not much of a big deal to include FreeDOS insead of Linux or something else that others might think is "useful".
As for hours of fiddling with crap: every time I've tried to do this, starting with the drviers from the CD has greatly lengthed the amount of time I spent fiddling. If I'd had the good sense to just go to the web and look for updated drivers first, I would have saved time. And while I like fiddling with computers, I don't like fiddling with Windows (since I don't really know it), and do it as little as I can get away with.
-Rob
Microsoft can do pretty much whatever they want and most people and company's just don't really care all that much, however this last move was a bit too far and most definately an example of anti-competitiveness rather than the anti-piracy measure they would have you beleve it to be. However not being able to buy a PC without an OS is not a concern for the mass majority of people. Now, we're all /.'s and we definately care a great deal about this, mostly just because we're all nerds and geeks who like to install an OS for the fun of it, but another perfectly valid reason for our caring (and in my opinion more important) is the fact that it seems Microsoft is trying to be a bully agian and we are all just really, really tired of that position from MS, as a matter of a fact if they started to act decent I might actually have a few good things to say about them.
I know there's Yellow Dog Linux that runs on Macs, and my understanding is that they even allow dual booting (No! Imagine that!).
Has anyone tried running YD Linux on a Powermac? Any thoughts on the results? I don't have a reason to do it (OS X works just fine for me, including XDarwin), but there's always that idea of retiring the old Powermac someday and turning it into a server. (Why? Um...because I can?)
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
you've got dos!
geek page at KY speaks
So if Dell is sell the systems for the same price as if Windows was included that means Dell is pocketing a nice hunk of change; What about MS? This has gotta hurt MS' sales since in the past companies buying the PCs would have a site license for x number of machines, plus all the systems coming in would already have an OS license included.
Microsoft is taking a hit on this one, right were it hurts the most, in their pocketbook.
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
If the world's most successful Intel PC maker has to do stuff like this, how can Microsoft argue it is not a monopolist?
The pattern, from Microsoft to the RIAA, seems more and more protectionist. Which is all very well, but protectionism stifles innovation and new business models. It's a tragedy that at a time when things are changing so fast, when a grasp of what is happening in the rest of the world is increasingly important, that instead of having a government that can hold monopolists and protectionists in check and encourage innovation, we sem to have a US government that is run by them and thinks that foreigners are funny people who don't matter unless they might be able to stop oil from flowing.
Dell has always been a company that challenged the conventions, and its low-cost manufacturing has been an example of how to respond to globalisation. It's ridiculous that they are being hampered by the sort of 19th century practices that Marx banged on about.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
I think you missed something or I mis-read this line from the article "Individuals will be able to purchase n-Series Precision workstations, but not Optiplex PCs, via Dell's Web site. " Now if I understand that, Dell is just restricting the Optiplex PCs, not the Precision workstations.
hmmmm, very good point. That way Dell won't have to support the users who install Windows or Linux on there machines. Clever indeed.
Does this mean that MSFT still gets their piece of silver (aka license) for a FreeDOS machine?
I would then proceed to install Linux the first day I got the computer, without ever booting up Windows, and ask for a refund for the software. Others have done it. If they are going to charge me the same amount, then why not prove a point? Worst case, you don't get your refund, which you wouldn't have gotten anyway, but maybe you can get the point across. Best case, you get your point across and maybe get a few bucks for your trouble.
Not the easiest solution, but it kind of sounds like fun.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
What part of It will come with the computer, but not installed did you not understand?
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
OS X is rather slow on my Old World G3 tower. YDL is more than usable- one might say snappy and responsive. With all the software available on the distribution and the ability to run MacOS 9 as a VM, it's a good alternative to OS X.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
But who gets the money that is saved by not shipping Windows? Is any money saved at all? Previous incarnations of this sort of deal had the manufacturer pay Microsoft for a Windows license anyway.
I think it's a big deal whether you are sponsoring DELL for taking on Microsoft, or are actually making some sort of implicit mandatory donation to Microsoft, just to be spared from the horrors of running Windows.
Just checked Dell's website. If you're a business (even a small one-person business), you can already buy a Dell w/ Redhat 7.3 preinstalled.
Of course this is all wrong. It's not microsoft's task to make companies check every license. I should not be obligated to tell anyone what I will run on my pc's before I am allowed to buy them.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Since it can partition any disk type. :-)
so you can remove linux or other weird partition type's you cant with MS-DOS fdisk. So now when you dont know how for example linux fdisk works, cause its plain more complicated then the MS-DOS fdisk some folks are used too. Then get your selve a copy of FreeDOS fdisk. It has the same interface as MS-DOS fdisk, but much better features
Wow...and its free with a Dell PC...
It's not just the saved step and saved labor. It's also the reduced complexity in licensing. If a big corp buys a site license, they don't want extra copies under other licenses running around loose...
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
No, I have not read any windows EULAs lately so I have no idea if this is possible, but if the cost is the same, I'd take the one with Windows and donate the license to a local school.
>>I'd be just as happy to know that Microsoft wasn't getting paid a tax out of my money for purchasing a computer.
In fact, with this deal you are paying a non-Windows tax. They are charging you the same money as if they were installing Windows and pocketing it. Plus they don't have any obligation to support Windows on this system, further lowering their costs, and the system with Windows was profitable in the first place. These systems are a practical joke by Dell and you're the target for thinking that you're some how better off.
Let's see...
1981
Would that have been Opel or Akers?
Or at that time, in that 'maverick-PC' environment, was the real decision down at the level of Don Estridge?
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
That's why it's a win for Dell to be able to ship machines with no OS at all. They can't be expected to handle software support calls for machines that didn't come with any software whatsoever. So they can charge less for a no-OS machine than they can for a FreeDOS machine.
The Microsoft tax strikes again.
Actually, I think the word you're looking for is "bought"
If this flies, ya gotta love it.
Turnabout may not always be fair play, but sometimes it does justice.
Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks.
It was just this kind of "creative" contract interpretation that let Microsoft screw Spyglass pretty much out of existence.
PS: I hear that Spyglass picked up a little justice of its own in the form of a lawsuit settlement. Seems Microsoft told the Court some things in the antitrust trial that affected the way the Spyglass contract should be read. Guess they figured no one was paying attention.
Nah, it's completely legal... These numbers are made up, but they should illistrate the point.
Microsoft: Tell ya what, Dell. If you promise to only sell computers with our OS, we'll only charge you 30 dollars for a copy.
Dell: That sounds good. What if we want to seel OS-less or Linux computers.
Microsoft: Well, then the OEM Price for Windows goes up to 60 dollars each.
Dell: Ow. I guess I'll just sell computers with an OS installed (Quick, lawyers! make sure the agreement doesn't specify Windows!)
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
Three points:
First, if the CD made it into any sort of hardware build and package cycle, it's probably obsolete well before it hits the customer's office.
Second, as someone else mentions, distribution wars.
Third, why the heck didn't they partition the system the way *I* think is best? (Every organization will tend to have their own pet partitioning, too.)
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Just as the FreeDOS disk will be useless to most people who buy these Dell PCs.
FreeDOS might be just what the doctor ordered. There's still a lot of legacy custom software for DOS that some corporations need to run. And until the company's IT team gets around to putting FreeBSD on the machines, the developers can still write and test code using DJGPP (GCC for DOS) and spend time playing games such as Doom Legacy, Quake 1, or Tetanus On Drugs.
DOS will never die.
Will I retire or break 10K?
What I would like to see them do is (as was suggested by another reader) partner up with a big Linux company to provide service and support for the OS, and for Dell to seriously provide alternate desktop and server solutions for the general public as well as business buyers. Maybe this first step is a move in that direction? A test perhaps, to see how viable such a product line would be to their business.
Should we be slagging them, or buying their products to send them a message? Feel free to comment (no flames, decent conversation please)
As a personal sidebar, I own two machines at home. A (relatively) new Dell with WinXP, and another older PC with Redhat. Small steps for me too. :)
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
Seems to miss the fact that Dell are aiming these boxes to major customers, those ordering in the 1000's at a time. There is an option for Joe Public to buy online, but its one specific workstation model. How many home users are going to think "Ooooh, thats good, no OS!". Most are gonna think "What? No windows? I dont want that!"
The up shot is that the guys buying these things are gonna be the big corporates who would strip and rebuild whatever OS came on it to start with to match their corporate config. So whatever its supplied with it gets what they use. There is no net change in OS usage as a result.
At the end of the day I'd say its nothing more than Dell getting a bit of good publicity by putting up two fingers to MS's licencing terms rather than promoting OS choice.
This isn't new, the German computer assemblers Maxdata having been doing this for sometime, offering Dr Dos with their machines with the understanding no one will install and therefore no-one will ask for support. The difference? well Maxdata dont charge you the same. you get approx 80 quid off the price, which can only mean one thing,
Dell and Microsoft have agreed this marketing strategy to direct market sales to those of us who dont like to think any money has gone to the every growing bank of Microsoft. Maybe Dell are sitting there with a bigger margin, maybe they are buying licences and a re filling a massive warehouse full of MS OS media, who cares. Theres no benefit of buying a dell machine if the cost is the same, Id much prefer to have the MS software at the same price so i can make myself smile as i throw the CD against the wall and watch £90 quid shatter into thousands of pieces across the floor.
But then im unstable.
So why am I saying that this is great news? When's the last time win2kpro, xppro, linux, or other OS's where an option on a home PC? Moreover, when's the last time an PC came with just an OS. Who the hell wants AOL, Jukebox, Compaq management station, Jacknutz McGee's antiviral sponge program, and all other kinds of useless crap that they never asked for in the first place on their PC? This is good news for the average Joe schmoo who can finally get a computer and put what they want on it without having to know too much about computers in general.
It's a big step back from M$ dictating what average folk do with their PC's, and I dig it.
--What, you ain't know about them country fried sessions?
Please, people. Read the article. Dell does offer Redhat on some of its systems. As many have already said, FreeDOS is only a "token" operating system to get around Microsoft's licensing requirements, will only be available on a couple machines, and is primarily intended only for volume buyers who already have licensing agreements and prefer to install the OS themselves. I would imagine that many customers who are interested in this will be installing Windows anyway, but have already purchased enterprise licensing to avoid getting slapped by the Software Mafia^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HBSA.
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
FreeDOS gives the user just enough power to connect to a site where they can download the most recent ISO of their choice.
If that is your plan, you might want to download The Arachne Web Browser for DOS while your at it.
It's a full Internet Suite with PPP dialer, graphical Browser, email, MP3 player, etc. You may find you'll want to keep FreeDOS on a small partition after all.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
Mircrosoft would not:
Put a clause in their EULA that states that consumers could get refunds for installed copies of Windows if the consumer disagreed with the license, only to turn around and violate that license when the consumer requested his refund.
Name their PDA operating system in such a way that an abbreviation forms a word for a reaction to pain.
Fake a demonstration of how badly Windows is impared when Internet Explorer is removed for an anti-trust trial, and get caught.
And Microsoft would absolutely, positivly, not spend a couple hundred million marketing their upcomming consol system only to find out that someone else owned the trademark.
Yes, Microsoft thinks of everything.
;)
I'm not talking about Joe IT worker who uses it to make a living (I've done that in the past, and while it's uncomfortable and icky, it's a necessary evil.) I'm talking about the guy who comes home and uses Windows and posts to /. about how awful it is and how hardcore he is for hating it and making it crash. Big deal. If you believe in something, don't be wishy-washy. (I don't mean to sound like RMS, because I'm coming from an entirely different place. I just think that if you do have ideals, it doesn't reflect well on you if you don't walk the walk.)
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Server != Desktop.
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
Having a knoppix and a demolinux and the run-from-cd slackware would be neat. People could fiddle around, decide what they liked, and install something to the harddrive later.
It's more than a PR stunt. Dell is using FreeDOS as a small doorstop so the door will remain ajar, allowing Linux or whatever other OS they choose to squeeze through in the future.
Dell does not think anyone will use FreeDOS. They just want to sent the prescedent that they have the ability to ship some other OS with their machines so that they can change this OS when production facilities, support people, developers, drivers, etc are ready.
If they shipped only windows and then 1 year from now tried to slip Linux in, MSFT would slay them on the spot. Instead, if they ship FreeDOS now, which MSFT knows is know thread, they can SWITCH to linux instead, continuing to do something which they had be doing for many months -- shipping an alternate OS with their PCs.
I remember reading something from Gateway's testimony in the recient court case, that Microsoft gets money for each PC that they sell, even if no MS OS is installed. read here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename= article&node=&contentId=A17256-2002Mar25¬Found= true
"Among these, he said, is a prohibition on manufacturers from selling computers without any operating system, or a license for one. Fama said this forces computer makers to pay Microsoft royalties for the license regardless of whether its Windows operating system was installed."
Very good points.
I, for one, hope your right - and some time in the not so distant future dell decides to ship linux on it's pcs (it already does on servers).
It would be a grand day to see someone like Dell shipping linux - I would buy 4 immediately!
Derek
Of course these are servers, not desktop machines. Nevertheless they take a bite out of the MS market.
Idempotent operation: Like MS software, wether you run it once or often, that doesn't make it any better.
> That's what the antitrust suit should have been all about...
If it's any comfort, it's been done. Digital Research (and now Caldera) have successfully sued the heck out of Microsoft for predatory licensing practices which they used to get DR-DOS out of the way. It's not much (MS settled, so they never went to court) but at least if they try it again there's precedent that a judge can use to pummel them.
Virg
Who appointed Microsoft as the regulatory agency for the computer industry anyway?)
Microsoft did, of course. And believe me, it for your own good.
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
Does anyone else remember those old "Don't mess with Texas" bumper stickers from the 1980s? I think this is a great example of what that means...
Dell still pays Microsoft because they're required to--the way I understand it, whether or not they have Windows on a computer they sell, they have to pay for a copy of windows for that computer, and thus, so does the consumer. Otherwise, M$ won't let them sell any computers with Windows on them. It doesn't really work to bash Dell for this--they're nearly as much a victim as we are.
So if the customer is paying for a Windows license, why the hell aren't they getting a copy of Windows? This just reeks of being illegal. It's theft. The customer's money is being taken and they are not being given a thing in return. So I see M$ is immune to theft and consumer protection laws now. They're already immune to anti-monopoly laws.
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
So why not make the token OS a live-CD version of that Linux distro - the one Dell wants to sell? The live-CD version wouldn't deter enterprise-class customers from buying, since it wouldn't meet their requirements, but it would provide enough real utility to effectively demonstrate the look and feel, and a mere taste of the performance, of an actual installed version.
Shipping with a token non-HD-installed OS is clever. Shipping with a token non-HD-installed OS which also effectively advertises another product you can actually sell would be cleverer.
I think the reason why Dell is offering machines without Windows installed is the fact Dell has announced an alliance with Red Hat Software to provide Red Hat Linux on both corporate PC's and servers on Tuesday.
That way, Dell offers a low-cost alternative to Windows to satisfy increasingly penny-pinching large-volume customers, and Dell chose the Linux distribution that is #1 in the business environment, Red Hat (which has pretty much become the de facto standard for Linux distributions).
Ha! Of all the systems they could have shipped, especially to include Linux and the *BSDs they picked FreeDOS. That's just funny. Okay, the dumb little Dell kid just got a slight bit more tolerable in my mind.
if the computers are the same cost - where's the extra money going?
Into Dell's pocket of course.
Is this a bad thing? I don't think so. Hardware margins are already thin. Pocketing both the Windows Tax and the cost of not supporting Windows on this box is very attractive to the hardware maker. Thus they will fight very hard to offer this option to their customer.
It will give Dell competitive advantage. Thus Dell's competitors now will fight very hard to have this option.
Once everyone is doing it, and it is accepted practice, then someone will be first to offer Windows-less boxes for less money. Then that competitive trend will have an effect on everyone else.
Isn't competition on commodity items wonderful? Too bad we don't have any when it comes to software.
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
Has Microsoft decided that the 1995 consent decree they executed with the Department of Justice no longer applies?
See http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f0000/0047.htm, in particular the per-processor clause.
Microsoft can't really be attempting to force Dell to pay them for every PC shipped, can it?
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
would you please kill this cow for me? what's that? yo don't want to? well spit that fucking burger out now! elitist prick
MS is in the middle of an antitrust trial the core of which is the accusation that MS strongarms OEMs with exclusive deals. Now wouldn't it be convinient for MS to demo the fact that an OEM could indeed *not have to* ship with MS OSs even with the existing licences with MS. Enter Dell and FreeDOS. Who is actually using FreeDOS (well i am but i don't think that's the norm.)? From a shippers perspective Linux/xBSD would have been a better choice because of the market share. If Dell truly wanted to provide alternative OSs for the benefit of consumers wouldn't they pick from the list of OSs that are higher up in market-share-ranked list? ie. since they ship the top ranked OS -- windows -- woulnd't they pick the second next? But then MS wouldn't like that too much now would it? Solution: ship FreeDOS with the machines -- that way people are at least still in the DOS mindset. Then MS goes back to court saying -- "Look, Look, the OEMs can and are shipping machines with other OSs. We didn't strongarm them into exclusivity!! The OEMs *can* choose other OSs and that's not restricted by our *existing* license. The only reason they haven't taken advantage of that is because they didn't want to. Not because we threatened them in any way!"
So me thinks this idea hatched somewhere in the northwest US. NOT at Dell. Do you really think that if Dell wanted to piss off MS by shipping an alternative OS they would ship FreeDOS as opposed to something with more demand -- linux? Unless of course MS wanted Dell to *ship* (or at least look like they offer) another OS. That OS would have to be close to MSs own. But very very outdated version of MSs own.
From the article:
"N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said."
So... essentially Dell gets to pocket the difference, that being their cost for a Windows license. Sounds like a great deal for Dell, if you ask me.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Microsoft lawyers, BG and marketting/sales ppl must be pissed right now, what do you think they'll do?
Maybe not so much directly to DELL right now but, can they do anything against freeDOS? Do they hold any trademark on "DOS" ? With all these lawsuits going on , you should be careful what you name your kids!
[alk]
Yes, you are, but I forgive you.
Now, on to the real point.
If you willingly bought the computer, knowing the cost, and knowing it came with Windows, you have no right to a refund.
YES, I do, if I do not agree to the terms of the EULA.
If they are charging you the SAME price whether or not you get Windows or not, then they are over charging you if you don't get Windows on your new PC. Part of the price you pay is the infamous "Windows Tax". Forget Linux for a moment. What if your Win2k machine at home fries - zip, poof, gone. You have the original Win2k discs that you bought. Should you buy a new PC and have to pay AGAIN for the OS? No. You should be able to get your refund REGARDLESS of what OS you want to install on your PC.
If they charge the same price with or without Windows, they are overcharging you. And it is more about the principle of it all than the money. But you know what? I could use the extra $100 or whatever they charge for Windows.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
you know, gnome and KDE use windows....
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
First, it's lose, not loose. I hate to be a spelling Nazi, but this error is so common I have to mention it. I admit that the double-'o' sound with a single 'o' is confusing, but that's just the way English is. :)
Second, the "minor difference in cost" isn't minor at all... I bopped over to Dell, to see the "freedos" option in action. Apparently they haven't changed the web page yet. More interestingly, I discovered that, for example, in a PowerEdge 1650 rack server the cost of adding a 5-client license of Win2k server increased the cost of the machine by 45%. I don't care how little anyone thinks businesses care about the cost of hardware -- only a moron pays an additional 45% for something they're just going to throw away, and any manager who approves such a purchase was ignorant of what they were actually approving.
I can definitely see why Dell would want to maintain a no-OS option.
The enemies of Democracy are
calm down.
Could it be that Dell wants to make more money?
At this time, this is for large orders. This way they can make more moeny OR offer other insentives for the corporate customers.
Unless you hae a statement from dell, you are really stretching.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I recently went through this issue with Dell when I bought a laptop from them about a month ago. Dell would not sell me a laptop with Linux unless I bought 10 or more. They would also not sell me a laptop with out an OS. However this is not a Microsoft licensing thing. In fact it is a requirement of the Interational Standards Organization. Dell does not actually build their machines but has a group of companies contraced to do it. As part of this, Dell requires their contactors to be certified under an ISO Manufacturing Standard (I dont know the number). This Manufacturing Standard states that Dell may not sell a computer without an OS. The guy explained to me that this is a requirement as they must quality inspect each machine with an installed OS and then send that machine out in its current state. I hate MicroBorg as much as the next guy, but this time they are in the clear.
But, the significant fact remains that Dell gave us a rebate for returning an unused OS at a time when many vendors refused to do this. I made a point of letting our Dell sales rep know that this reflected well on Dell in my mind.
Even if Dell charges the same with or without a Microsoft license, you might be better off without it -- consider that the Microsoft license might, in theory, have you agree to let them hack your computer even though you removed or never used their software. Getting the PC naked removes this possibility (IANAL so I can't comment on the legality of such a license, but I'd bet Microsoft would try it even if it wasn't enforcable at law.)
You could've hired me.
If their own EULA didn't say that I was entitled to a refund for not using the software, then I wouldn't feel that it was owed to me. But since it does, I do. Rightfully so, if my new car came with a EULA that said I had the chance to turn in my car's heating system for a refund should I decide to never use it, then I would fully expect a check from Nissan when I turn in my heating system. What's the problem with that?
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
Well okay so maybe the tail is 100 times the size of the dog, but it's still bizarre to read things like this:
I think it's safe to say that the concept of a "software license" is completely out of hand when a software license can dictate another company's product line.
Another strangely funny quote:
What a crazy idea! Who are these "Dell" people? They should sell customers what DELL wants! And lobby for laws that disallow everything else! That's the New Capitalism! Get with the program!
Hmm then again I guess you could parse that sentence so that "they" could refer to Microsoft..
Very clueful explanation of contracts.
Mmmm.. Donuts
it is online. why not try http://www.maxpayneheadquarters.com like it says under my name :)
I don't understand it. How can a company say that you must sell their software. If I am running an OEM, why should I jump through hoops have to find a 'loophole'? I am just going to sell my hardware, and that's it.
So why did Dell have to find a loophole? Did they sign something with MSFT at some point agreeing to only sell MSFT products? Or if you buy one MSFT product as an OEM can you only buy MSFT products? It doesn't make sense.
Think how absurd it would be if nVidia said to all OEMs that have nVidia cards, that they could only sell nVidia? Absurd, just absurb.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
People are consistently missing my point. I'm not talking about average Joe End User or Average Joe Works-At-Fortune-500-Company. I'm talking about Unaverage Sylvester who is a complete wirehead, has five PCs without the case covers on (and thinks that that makes them cooler), lusts after Mac OS X, thinks Bill Gates really is a Borg, and still dual boots, while simultaneously posting to /. about the complete evil of the latest Windows Media EULA. If it's that bad, chuck it! When I made the decision in 1998 that Win98 was complete inadequate for me, I formatted my drives and installed Red Hat. Then I installed Debian. I was one of those wireheads, but I went for the whole deal. Sometimes it was inconvenient, but I made do. End of story. Not much more to say than if you think you're a big shot, walk the walk, don't just buy the t-shirt.
Sorry for the flaminess of my tone.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Dell wouldn't sell me FreeDOS unless I bought a PC also! Thus I have to pay for a PC just to get FreeDOS from them. Those Bastards!
Table-ized A.I.
So, why FreeDOS? Why not some form of Linux?
The answer, I think, is there is no matter what flavor of Linux they put on the machine, the number of people who actually want that flavor is not going to be significant enough to make it worthwhile.
You may say that x percentage of PCs run Linux, but remember that x is divided up amongst all the myriad flavors Linux comes in. I know if I had Red Hat on a new laptop, I'd reformat it and put Gentoo on it. FreeDOS is a much simpler option.
Of course, there is also the support angle. Linux support is not cheap, partially due to the large number of flavors that all do things differently. "Techs" that can parrot "ummm reinstall, reboot your computer, and try again" for Windows problems are a dime a dozen.
Yeah, it'd be as interesting as last time MS went to court...
MS: "We're not guilty of evil things."
Court: "Yes, you are. Change stuff."
MS: "OK, we'll change stuff in such a way that nothing changes."
Court: "OK, you have until the end of time to make said changes. We'll keep pretending to argue so lawyers can make more money."
Lawyers: "Yay!"
The excuse that M$ gives for the reason for the "NoOS" option in its licencing agreements with companies like Dell, is evidence that they admit that they are a monopoly. Basically they are claiming that there is NO reason to install any other OS other than a M$ OS.
If Dell (or any other Box maker) can show how many units were sold with or without M$ OS' installed should be ALL that M$ needs as proof of licensing. I am 100% sure that Dell can show exactly how many units of what were sold, including which OS was installed OR packaged as part of the Deal, including the NoOS option.
Excuses are often the best evidence of knowledge of wrong doing (ie GUILT).
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Dell's servers usually ship with just a disc to automate install of OSes, no actual OS license.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
If it's necessary, then it would happen even without Microsoft's despicable business tactics. If it requires those tactics, then perhaps it isn't so necessary after all.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
If I got a message like that from any vendor, I'd cancel the order, and tell them that I'm a CUSTOMER, not a SUSPECT, and that if they don't know how to treat a customer, then they shouldn't have any.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
But if the cost is the same, why would you ever buy the machine without the Windows license. We would certainly opt for the Windows machine, even if we weren't buying it to run Windows, simply because it would allow us to redeploy the machine as a Windows box at a later date at no cost.
That's exactly my point. They cost the same, except instead of microsoft getting your money, Dell gets your money, and you're stuck with FreeDOS instead of XP or W2K.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Dell does seem to be tolerably flexible for large customers, from what I hear. (I've no reason to buy anything but clones for myself or my clients, so don't have the firsthand info you do.)
:(
Your thought about how the lic. might give M$ the EULA right (if not the legal right) to hack your PC even tho you've nuked their software... I have a suspicion you're all too correct, wrt how M$ would interpret and use it. It occurs to me to wonder just how much snooping they're already doing on large corporate customers.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Seems more like:
1. Microsoft breaks the law
2. Justice department prosecutes Microsoft
3. Microsoft agrees to stop breaking the law; no punishment is imposed
4. GOTO 1
> ...settlements don't create any precedent whatsoever.
Precedent of behavior, not precedent of ruling. It can be used to prove that they've admitted to doing this in the past, so the judge is less likely to be lenient in sentencing, if they're convicted of it again.
Virg