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Follow Internet2's Upgrade

Posted by michael on from the apt-get-install-internet2 dept.

An anonymous reader writes "This is a follow-up to this story posted several months back. Abilene, the backbone for Internet2, is starting its upgrade and has a webpage up to follow the installation. Looks like quite a few interestesting documents and photos. The first Juniper T640 router was installed in Indianapolis on Friday. Anyone who's interested in what goes into a nation-wide network deployment should check it out."

41 of 129 comments (clear)

  1. Alright by Com2Kid · · Score: 2, Funny

    I say that we all try our hardest to /. this baby and show those foo's that the old skool 'net ain't down for the count yet!

    --
    Need help treating your acne? Come here!
    1. Re:Alright by danny256 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, good luck slashdotting a backbone.

  2. Hi Res by borgasm · · Score: 2

    From the looks of the hi-res pictures on their website, Internet2 is going to need the extra bandwidth. Viva la Slashdot Effect!

    1. Re:Hi Res by Openadvocate · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd rather say that people on Internet2 must be used to fast high quality lines where you don't really think about the size of the files.
      Ah, to work directly connected to the backbone, and here I am on my slow 2mbit line

      --
      my sig
  3. Hurray! by xenocide2 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Now all my intercollegiate... "transfers" will procede faster than I can burn them to CD!

    --
    I Browse at +4 Flamebait

    Open Source Sysadmin

  4. One thing's for sure. by Deal-a-Neil · · Score: 2, Funny

    If the link to their site gets slashdotted, Internet2 isn't all its whooped up to be. :-) [j/k]

    "Installation Practice and Drills". Damn. When we install at a new co-lo, I usually have this down on a dinner (White Castle) napkin two hours previous, lose it, and do our practice-and-drill in production-real-time. There's definitely something to be learned about build-out and deployment just from looking at their pictures. 8-/

  5. Lets get something usefull going... by Eric_Cartman_South_P · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I don't want faster pr0n... pichunter_com is as good as it gets. What I want are my MRI or XRay scans after a hospital visit. I want Video Conference that works as smoothly as a telephone does today. "Can you *see* me now? Good!" Getting rid of lag on RTCW multiplayer is good, but MEDICAL, RESEARCH, and other life changing, usefull applications must take advantage of this.

    And does anyone see the general public being denied access to this, because a DVD can be shared as easily as an MP3 today? I bet the RIAA would try to stop us slashdoters et. al. from using it. If they are starting to sue backbone providers, it's not above their heads to try it.

    Either way, I hope geeks and others who love progress get it up and running. Good luck, Internet v2.0, because Internet v1.0 sure has turned into a pile of crap (and by crap, I mean DeCSS linking being illegal, anything to do with RIAA, and PopUp adds).

    1. Re:Lets get something usefull going... by alexburke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Good luck, Internet v2.0, because Internet v1.0 sure has turned into a pile of crap (and by crap, I mean DeCSS linking being illegal, anything to do with RIAA, and PopUp adds).

      That's because the government of the country where most of the Internet is located has turned into a pile of crap -- or at least has been sufficiently monetarily lubricated to allow the laws which govern the citizens of that country (and therefore many of the Internet's users) to turn into a pile of crap (as far as those citizens/users are concerned).

      The whole fucking situation really sucks. I wish people in charge would just see what's right instead of seeing what's greenest.

      Fuckers.

    2. Re:Lets get something usefull going... by alexburke · · Score: 2

      The "people in charge" that I'm referring to are the people responsible for making the laws which have allowed the Internet to turn into such a pile of shit (spam, DMCA, SSSCA, etc.).

      If shit laws were repealed and decent ones enacted, the Internet would be a much better place.

      However, this probably won't happen if the media cartels etc. are allowed to continue on their way (Senator Disney, for example).

  6. Someone should sue them by ikekrull · · Score: 4, Funny

    Since the Internet2's huge amount of available bandwidth is surely grounds for a contributory copyright infringment case.

    Might as well nip these new developments in piracy-enabling technologies in the bud.

    --
    I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
  7. very usefull by nzru.() · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Already the plethora of useful and public applications can become a reality. Real time video conferencing, news streams, medical surgery with full 3d video even with VR enhancement to get that "effect" of real life. Imagine medical procedures being done REMOTELY with this kind of bandwidth, provided it's reliability is in fact, a reality. Double-Plus Good! The talk about the **AA's is irrelivent. Anything that's produced for the common good of the people will always, in some way or another, be used for bad/illegal pourpeses. It's a fact, get over it. __ It's not trolling, it's my honest opinion!

    --
    Oops! I did it again
  8. Indy? by ImaLamer · · Score: 2

    Heck that's close enough that I could drive up and hand them the data almost as quickly.

    I'm glad though that it's close, hopefully our local 'bones (TimeWarner, UUNet, etc) can get on this when done.

    --
    Get your Unix fortune now!
  9. A Student by jjonte · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm a senior undergrad in New Media at IU Indianapolis. The University is always quick to show all this fancy equipment and high technology stuff (Internet2, CAVE)...but the students never see it or use it. We fund it, but we're not allowed to touch.

    1. Re:A Student by Gaurang · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I am at a university in california. Same thing here, the students are not allowed access to the high-tech stuff at the Univ.
      But its correct since the the faculty and research assistant students who do research using that stuff are allowed to use it, and that makes for a proper use of it. If you let all access it, it will turn into a pile of junk soon.

      --
      I have found a solution to Riemann's Hypothesis, but have run out of spac
    2. Re:A Student by David+Price · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not sure how it's architected at your school, but at mine, everyone with an on-campus network connection transparently gets benefit from Internet2. It's very simple: If your packets are going to an institution connected to Internet2, then they get routed over Internet2. The routing decision is made at the campus border. No problem, everyone gets to use it. All Internet2 is is a new, fast backbone that a select group of research institutions gets to use.

      I've gotten faster transfers from machines at MIT than ones 400 yards away from my dorm room as a result of this hookup.

      Isn't this how most institutions are using Internet2? Just put another card in the border router and let everyone at it. It doesn't seem to make sense to pay all that money for a high-speed network connection and not integrate it with your campus network.

      (Incidentally, a traceroute to the webserver you linked in your post passes through Abilene.)

    3. Re:A Student by wsloand · · Score: 2

      Georgia Tech is the same as Rice is according to the other poster. Traffic is automatically routed through the Internet2 if you are going to a connected institute.

      I also know that if you have readon to need access, we have the ability to get access to any technology on campus. Just with two e-mails I have access to at least 5 supercomputers on campus, and if I need more access I can e-mail.

      I'd bet that if you actually need access to the systems, then you can probably get it, but giving access to a CAVE system to all students just so that they can play Quake3 on it would be stupid on the part of the IT department.

    4. Re:A Student by clifyt · · Score: 2

      Ummm....yer on it from the university. Yer touching it all the time. Not sure what the problem is? Can ya go down to the NOC and screw with the routers? No.

      Its sad being on I2. I used 512k at home and it feels slow. I can't even tell you what 56k feels like these days because I give up after about 2 minutes and stay off line. At my Indianapolis office, connecting to other I2 sites is a breeze...I love being able to complain that it takes all of 3 minutes to download an ISO from California or otherwise. Try it sometime and you will realize how fast ya are...hell, or even set up a QuakeIII server and only allow low pings on it and you'll see how transparent it is.

      As for the CAVE, find a project that can utilize it and submit it to the folks and they may let you play with it. You DON'T fund it...these are purchased through grants. Get a project that if grant worthy and you'd be suprised what the university allows ya to play with.

      Clif Marsiglio
      IUPUI Testing Center

    5. Re:A Student by Large+Green+Mallard · · Score: 2

      Have you asked nicely to see something in action when next it's being used? Don't try to get to do whatever you want with $50k worth of equipment, it ain't gonna work. Talk to the people responsible for the equipment, find out more about it, then nicely ask if there's a time you could have a look at it being used.

      Yes you pay a lot of money, but so does everyone else. Your department doesn't get all the money you pay. They have to fight with every other department for your money. And a "senior undergrad" is about as important as "head janitor" in the university food chain :) There's thousands and thousands of you. If you ever get into post-grad studies, it's a different story :)

    6. Re: A Student by shalunov · · Score: 2
      The University is always quick to show all this fancy equipment and high technology stuff (Internet2, CAVE)...but the students never see it or use it.
      I would venture to say that you use it daily. Have you ever transferred a file to or from another university in the US? The packets went over Abilene (the Internet2 backbone).
      --

      -- Stanislav Shalunov

    7. Re:A Student by clifyt · · Score: 2

      Actually, no students pay very little for this stuff. Most of the money comes from grants and other subsudies. The university system is just another state sponsored R&D site.

      Students don't and have never buttered the bread. I've learned this first hand experience as my position gets very little in the way of support lately because we've decided to turn our attention away from research and onto supporting students. In doing so, we've shot ourselves in the foot and can barely keep our budget in line now. Research is the lifeblood of the university. Without it, you'd be paying $1000 a credit hour (like most private institutions) instead of the $150 you do now.

      Its a shame...I started employment at the university to stay closer to where I was going to school. If I didn't have the experience I do now, I'd probably be thinking the same thing you do. Its hypocritical, yes...but no different than having a bunch of idiots throwing a ball into a hoop and the school thinking it has anything to do with education.

      Higher Ed is everything but Higher Ed.

  10. Headline should have read by unsinged+int · · Score: 4, Funny

    from the unable-to-slashdot dept.

  11. What would make me happiest... by tlambert · · Score: 2

    What would make me happiest is if they would turn off IPv4 on the damn thing, and force everyone to use IPv6, or not be able to connect.

    It will truly suck to have all this shiny new equipment deployed and talking to its peers at incredible speed... without a shiny new address space to go with it.

    -- Terry

    1. Re:What would make me happiest... by Paranoid · · Score: 3, Informative

      Uhh, ipv6 is kinda the point of it anyway. The "Internet2" (also known as the "6Bone") _is_ the global ipv6 test network, after all. IPv6 is all it runs. Around my neck of the woods, its implemented as a mesh of SIT and GRE tunnels, but the backbone runs native.

      I wonder how many hops off of this shiny new hardware my poor little ipv6 GRE-tunnel sits...

      --
      Paranoid
      Bwaahahahahaa.
    2. Re:What would make me happiest... by noahm · · Score: 5, Informative
      Uhh, ipv6 is kinda the point of it anyway. The "Internet2" (also known as the "6Bone") _is_ the global ipv6 test network, after all. IPv6 is all it runs. Around my neck of the woods, its implemented as a mesh of SIT and GRE tunnels, but the backbone runs native.

      No, that is simply untrue. There is no connection between the 6bone and Internet2. They are certainly not the same thing. It's perfectly normal to speak IPv4 on Internet2. I do it all the time, as do most people who send packets between major .edu sites. Internet2 is the testbed for not only new software networking technologies, but new hardware technologies as well. There is no hardware involved in the 6bone.

      Here is a traceroute that goes over Internet2:

      traceroute to infopath.ucsd.edu (132.239.50.184), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
      1 anacreon (18.24.4.1) 0.854 ms 0.510 ms 0.506 ms
      2 radole (18.24.10.3) 1.505 ms 1.167 ms 1.547 ms
      3 B24-RTR-1-LCS-LINK.MIT.EDU (18.201.1.1) 1.997 ms 1.409 ms 2.448 ms
      4 EXTERNAL-RTR-2-BACKBONE.MIT.EDU (18.168.0.27) 1.140 ms 1.274 ms 1.366 ms
      5 192.5.89.89 (192.5.89.89) 1.768 ms 1.718 ms 1.191 ms
      6 ABILENE-GIGAPOPNE.NOX.ORG (192.5.89.102) 7.337 ms 6.181 ms 6.647 ms
      7 clev-nycm.abilene.ucaid.edu (198.32.8.29) 20.210 ms 18.777 ms 19.306 ms
      8 ipls-clev.abilene.ucaid.edu (198.32.8.25) 26.019 ms 24.682 ms 26.679 ms
      9 kscy-ipls.abilene.ucaid.edu (198.32.8.5) 34.042 ms 35.163 ms 34.527 ms
      10 dnvr-kscy.abilene.ucaid.edu (198.32.8.13) 46.358 ms 45.230 ms 44.955 ms
      11 snva-dnvr.abilene.ucaid.edu (198.32.8.1) 69.201 ms 70.373 ms 69.657 ms
      12 losa-snva.abilene.ucaid.edu (198.32.8.18) 77.485 ms 78.125 ms 77.248 ms
      13 USC--abilene.ATM.calren2.net (198.32.248.85) 78.248 ms 77.353 ms 79.467 ms
      14 UCSD--USC.POS.calren2.net (198.32.248.34) 81.871 ms 81.249 ms 81.188 ms
      15 198.32.248.186 (198.32.248.186) 80.856 ms 81.965 ms 81.400 ms
      16 node-b-msfc--ucsd-gw.ucsd.edu (132.239.255.141) 83.473 ms 82.277 ms 80.897 ms
      17 muir-rsm--node-b-msfc.ucsd.edu (132.239.255.161) 82.902 ms 82.777 ms 81.225 ms
      18 infopath-1.ucsd.edu (132.239.50.182) 83.200 ms * 84.386 ms

      Hop 6 is where my packets enter Internet2, and hop 15 is where it leaves it. There is no IPv6 spoken along the way. Now here, just for fun, is an IPv6 traceroute going over the 6bone:

      traceroute to 6bone.net (3ffe:b00:c18:1::10) from 2002:121a:12:1804:2a0:ccff:fe57:ccd9, 30 hops max, 16 byte packets
      1 3ffe:1ce1:2:1804::2 (3ffe:1ce1:2:1804::2) 1.697 ms 0.391 ms 0.36 ms
      2 sipbv6-rtr-sipb-ether.ipv6.mit.edu (3ffe:1ce1:0:b5::1) 509.888 ms 304.953 ms 305.882 ms
      3 6bone.merit.edu (3ffe:1c00::3) 306.205 ms 305.879 ms 305.286 ms
      4 rap.ipv6.viagenie.qc.ca (3ffe:b00:c18:1:290:27ff:fe17:fc0f) 306.464 ms 306.109 ms 304.732 ms
      5 www.6bone.net (3ffe:b00:c18:1::10) 306.389 ms 308.274 ms 307.396 ms

      Let me repeat that: Internet2 and 6bone are unrelated!

      noah

    3. Re:What would make me happiest... by noahm · · Score: 2
      What would make me happiest is if they would turn off IPv4 on the damn thing, and force everyone to use IPv6, or not be able to connect.

      I don't see much point in that. Most people today are (or should be!) writing address family independent code (note1, note2). Applications should be able to speak IPv4 and v6 natively with little trouble. So you should be able to speak IPv4 or v6 over I2; there's no reason that you need to prefer one over the other.

      Also, I2 access is completely transparent for most sites. All it really involves is a new interface on a router and the software configuration to send I2-destined bits over it. This makes it really really easy for researchers to use I2. Since IPv6 is still an experimental protocol, it wouldn't really make sense to force research not directly related to IPv6 to use it.

      noah

    4. Re:What would make me happiest... by noahm · · Score: 2
      Silly to reply to my own comment, but...

      If you take a look at www.internet2.edu you'll see that they've just (as of August 5) announced native support for IPv6. That certainly is cool, as it's a major step towards getting IPv6 some more mainstream use. Provided that the sites on I2 have the ability to route IPv6, this means that users at the sites will be able to get real IPv6 connectivity to other I2 sites without tunneling. Way cool.

      (Of course, anybody can get IPv6 Internet access using tunnels. See freenet6.net and some 6-to-4 information.)

      But I2 still isn't the 6bone. ;^)

      noah

    5. Re: What would make me happiest... by shalunov · · Score: 4, Informative
      The "Internet2" (also known as the "6Bone") [...]
      Internet2 and the 6bone aren't related at all.

      Incidentally, we run both IPv4 and IPv6 on our Abilene backbone.

      --

      -- Stanislav Shalunov

    6. Re:What would make me happiest... by tlambert · · Score: 2

      "I don't see much point in [making Internet2 IPv6-only]".

      The main problem is that if people can use IPv4, there is no incentive for them to change over to IPv6. What this really means is that there's no incentive for Microsoft to include it be default in their desktop OS's. IPSec is languishing because Microsoft has not included it until very recently. Even so, the IPv4 IPSec they've included does not include cryptogrpahy, it only include authentication and non-repudiation.

      That's great if you want evidence to accuse someone of a crime, but without the third part of the IPSec specification being implemented, it doesn't provide privacy... for things like credit card numbers.

      "Applications should be able to speak IPv4 and v6 natively with little trouble."

      And if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. Not only is it easier to implement IPv4-only code ("just do what you've always done, instead of learning a new way to carefully code"), and impossible to test non-IPv4 operations without a lot of effort, given the non-deployment of IPv6, doing otherwise damages your code portability to platforms which have not implemented IPv6 interfaces and transport agnostic resolver and other code. As long as this is true, and there's no overriding incentive for IPv6, IPv6 will not be widely deployed.

      Personally, I fully expect my analog television to have signals to receive for the next decade, rather than the 2004 date that's been pushed back to 2006, when analog broadcasts were scheduled to cease.

      I also fully expect to have incredible difficulty getting a static IP, as long as the IPv4 address space is the primary address space.

      While apparently dissimilar, there is a common cause for both of these issues: there is a good reason that the phrase "backward compatability" has the word "backward" in it.

      "Since IPv6 is still an experimental protocol[...]"

      Wrong. RFC 240 is standards track, and has been since December of 1998. All Cisco equipment has had IPv6 capable software loads available since June 24th, 2000.

      What good is Internet 2 going to

      -- Terry

    7. Re:What would make me happiest... by t0qer · · Score: 2

      start>run>cmd (if you're using 2k and above)

      ipv6 install

      at the command prompt

  12. Juniper by Cally · · Score: 2

    It's good to see vendor J getting more exposure (go go BSD!) but I don't see anything in the docs about the choice of routing platform. Does J support something vital that vendor C does not yet provide? Or is it just a preference for clean code over crufty ol' IOS?

    --
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
  13. Truly More Bandwidth? by Nazmun · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't really see how this would increase our bandwidth in a revolutionary way. Maybe latency will improve with a better network infastruction but the same thing that prevent large bandwidth usage in the internet will probably plague internet2.

    One of the highest cost backbone providers suffer comes from laying down fiber. This has caused many to declare bankruptcy. Equipment (not talking about those home linksys routers) are crazily expensive as well. I don't see how internet2 will magically bring down the prices of either of the two dramatically. Equipment like this will always be expensive to ISPs and laying down fiber isn't going to get cheaper either.

    I admit I am not an expert in this arena but that doesn't change the cold hard facts that I'm seeing. Money seems to be the major factor that is preventing the current internet from utilizing higher bandwidth applications.

    --
    Hmmm... Pie...
    1. Re:Truly More Bandwidth? by dopolon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, the real issue, now that the people who paid for laying fiber down went bankrupt, is not a matter of investment...
      There is actually a bandwidth overcapacity and miles of unused dark fiber. The problem is to find a major operator that can come up with a successful business model / pricing scheme for that bandwidth :
      - if it's too expensive, people won't buy it
      - if it's too cheap, they go bankrupt, and we are back where we started
      It's not really a matter of equipment and investment but rather a matter of maintenance cost and business models.

      --
      "The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
  14. Connection by tom1974 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In Japan we get 8Mbps adsl service for less than $50 and they're testing a 12Mbps service, which is slated for service pretty soon. Damn awesome, like nowhere else in the world :) with that who needs internet2? ;)

    1. Re:Connection by forkboy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If all 40 million people (or however many Japan is up to these days) get 8-12 Mbps service, you're going to NEED Internet2 caliber backbones in place. All the bandwidth in the world at your house does you no good if the infrastructure can't support it.

      --
      This message brought to you by the Council of People Who Are Sick of Seeing More People.
  15. Re:Time to change that cell number. by Fred+Ferrigno · · Score: 3, Funny

    I can make out the number, but I can't read the message -- once again proving that digital cameras can't make up for bad photography.

  16. Shiny Junipers! by decarelbitter · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Nice to see they're switching to Juniper equipment. Our 'internet2' (being Gigaport is still built upon Cisco 12k's.

    On a more relevant note: I saw a demonstration of some of the capabilities, where a 2GB MRI scan was transmitted from a hospital to a university where it was examined in a CAVE. Very neat and useful stuff.

  17. Wimps! by FyRE666 · · Score: 3, Funny

    From the photos:

    Each crate weighed around 400 lbs, which is why you'll see three people moving one box.
    Now I know that geeks aren't exactly renowned for their great physical strength, but does it really take 3 of them to move a 400lb box on a pallet trolley?

    In my local supermarket I've seen young girls moving pallets full of new stuff for the shelves on these trolleys where the load is up to 1 tonne! (that's one girl moving the trolley, BTW).

    --
    Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
  18. PWA for the 21st century? by Quixote · · Score: 4, Interesting
    In the 1930s, the Public Works Administration started building lots of highways, interstates, etc. to keep the people occupied, and to pull the US out of the Great Depression (when unemployment reached 25%).

    Could a similar thing be done with the Tech world today? Building and rolling out lots of infrastructure (after all, the Internet is the "highway" of the 'net), could the tech economy be pulled out of the doldrums?
    I'm just musing aloud here...

  19. hehehe.... by Eric_Cartman_South_P · · Score: 2
    ROTF LOL...

    stand back and enjoy the all new "faster crap"

    Thanks dude... "faster crap" had be laughing for 20 minuntes. I needed that today. :)

  20. Same thing at the University of Arizona by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    I2 is given priority in the routers over I1. If you want to get at anything on any other I2 site, it will travel over the Abline link. This is good as it provides an average of about 15mbps relief on our main links (which cost a whole lot more) and that number is growing.

    The particular setup we have is there are three seperate border routers, each has an OC-3, one goes to Abline, the other two to our two I1 providers. Those than connect to two other routers that deal with traffic distribution.

    It works very well and we've been very happy with the I2 link so far.

  21. So *that*'s why my connection is screwed by one-egg · · Score: 2
    All day I've been wondering why my connection to the world is messed up. Can't get to ebay, can't get to Slashdot. I finally pulled out the modem card I use when traveling and dialed in through an ISP. Poof, everything works.

    Moral: never install big new things on Friday.