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Microsoft/HP to Market Crippled Entertainment PCs
gustywinds writes "CNet is reporting that Microsoft and HP recently announced the details on their Media Center PCs that will be coming out this Christmas season (this used to be called 'Freestyle'). The big story is that these PCs will have anti-copying mechanisms built-in to them -- ie can't burn recorded TV shows to DVD, or even copy and play them back on other PCs. And they are going to be expensive... $1500 for the starter box. Sounds like this thing is going to be DOA. Lots of other PC-based TV recording products that aren't restrictive when it comes to copying stuff goes... Snapstream, WinDVR... And, of course, Hauppauge, nVidia and ATi have products too but their software is pretty lacking..."
Where can I get one?
Has Comcast disconnected your Internet account? Same here. You can read about it at http://comcastissue.blogspot.com
Which is why these boxes will continue to show up as fancy tax-writeoffs for companies
:_)
As soon as the consumer is deemed intelligent not enough to lie, cheat, and steal, all the push for DRM will go away. The companies behind this only want whats best for us.
And yeah, I believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Gnomes
Or are they taking stupid injections? Really now, this makes no sense for 1001 reasons. First off, the obvious one that says this will be a dud. But even more important, this opens Pandora's box for the DRM crowd, giving them just what they want. On the other hand, they might realize this and wait for this crap to bomb, just to say: "See DRM people, your ideas are a flop".
Sure, it's running linux, but isn't it just a crippled entertainment PC?
sPh
It seems that the order of cracking as always been that some huge company comes up with technology and then someone comes along and cracks it.
... duh ... no one buys it.
During our modern age, it has been the reverse where formats have been created that allow copying and wide dissemination of info and companies come along try to stop it (through heavy handed lawsuits) or try to co-opt it or better (worse?) yet offer a competing scheme that requires you pay for it and
Feel free to add as needed.
Who the hell would be dumb enough to buy one of these? Not people... companies? Possibly..
When corporations are held liable for employees downloading files then maybe companies might go to buy these as a liability hedge.
A real tightly defined scenario sure.......
I would like to know more about why they've put something into an expensive system that they have got to know is going to kill it in the marketplace. Do Microsoft and HP have ties to the entertainment industry I don't know about?
One thing's for certain -- the future of home entertainment is changing, but the "Media Center PC" is not where it's going.
The $1500 price is entry-level for the HP model. According to the article, Samsung will also manufacture these entertainment PCs. Who knows, maybe they'll offer the product at a lower price point.
'Freestyle' refers to the version of Windows to be used (now 'Window XP Media Center Edition'), not the actual manufactured boxes.
Also, news.com reports that both HP and Samsung models will be available *before* Christmas season. Apparently even story submittors have stopped reading the articles. :P
This could be fun!
Finding God in a Dog
Then it's a good thing you spent so much on the box, then!
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
The article states a price of $1,500-$2,000. Then it talks about marketing them to COLLEGE STUDENTS. Think about that... the college students are the ones most opposed to DRM technologies! For less than $1,000 I can put together a machine with an ATI All in Wonder Pro DVR and a massive disk without the DRM inhibitions. Funny thing is, college students are the ones to figure this out first.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Problem is, if the user cannot transfer their digital content, be it original work, copyrighted audio or video, to their next PC, they aren't likely to upgrade. What will Microsoft do in two years when their current customers will want to upgrade their PC, but won't for fear of losing their digital content? If Microsoft is indeed right in saying that digital media will drive PC upgrade cycles, they are being quite shortsighted by releasing an OS which ties all of a consumer's digital media to their current machine.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
using software that the MAJORITY of people use and being able to interchang EASILY with those people.
having a LARGE variety of programming titles to choose from.
Easy use of your computer.
I am no MS lover, but your comment was definitly over-rated.
I though HP said they were trying to get OUT of their trend of losing business and market share..
Producing entire warehouses of dead computers that no one will buy seems quite counteractive to that plan.
Shrug.
=-Jippy
The sad thing is that it's like the RIAA-sponsored music sites - a project designed to fail.
When HP and MSFT testify that "We tried to sell cripped PCs but nobody bought them" to Congress, Congress' solution will by to make it illegal to buy non- crippled PCs.
If you made boxen at $400 apiece, but can only sell them at $500, would you continue to do so, or would you rather collude with Hollywood to get Congress to make the $500 PCs illegal, so that you can sell the same hardware, crippled, at $1500?
If you're part of the crowd that wants to rant about how capitalism's destroying the world, I'd urge you to make sure you're really talking about capitalism before you rant.
A capitalist (one who believes in a market based in the exchange of goods or money between voluntary participants) would continue to sell non-crippled boxen at $500.
If HP and MSFT get in bed with Hollywood to get Congress to force consumers to buy $1500 crippled entertainment centers, (by banning the $500 non-crippled computers, which consumers seem to prefer), they cease to become capitalists.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product _id=1957333&cat=96356&type=19&dept=3944&path=0%3A3 944%3A3951%3A41937%3A86796%3A96356
I can buy myself a high end PC that's just like all other PCs made today that let's me burn cds/dvds and do what I will with my media, and I can pay about $1000 USD for it. Or, I can buy the same PC but WITHOUT the ability to do what I'd like with my media, and pay $1500-$2000 USD. Um...I...I think I'll take the first one.
Oh yeah, and I thought it was quite comical that when I pulled up the article about how HP was trying to sell this crap, I got a huge banner ad for Dell.
do not read this line twice.
This thing is definately DOA.
Unfortunately it will probably prevent some little company from getting VC for coming out with a decent version of this. Which is probably the intent anyway.
It's got a big, colorful UI just like TIVO and now can handle recording from listings. (And I believe it works with listings all over the world. It definitely works in Ireland, UK, and USA -- I bet it'll work in Canada.)
ShowShifter is really cool. It uses DivX pro to record, can be programmed to record just like a TIVO, and doesn't cost a penny beyond the initial purchase -- which is quite cheap for what it offers (US$49 for the standard version, $79 for the pro version with DivxPro).
That strategy might make sense as Microsoft attempts to attract Hollywood movie studios with its digital rights management and anti-copying technologies.
This is NOT DOA, because it is not about PCs or PVRs or multimedia control. It is a Proof of Concept to sell the Digital Rights Management of MS to the MPAA and RIAA. Then the MPAA and RIAA will then use their money to ensure that ALL PCs have a DRM built into them.
While we can whine and cry that "no machine we buy will!!!", It is a non-issue. Dell, Gateway, Compac/HP, etc. will continue to sell their millions of boxes to the various businesses, and Mom & Dad like always. Legislation will pass that requires DRM and those that do not have it will be marginalized as criminals.
This is not the war, this is just the start of the battle. MPAA/RIAA make be seeing they will never get another DMCA, so they need to control "just content". MS sees the opportunity to manage every piece of electronic data on the web. 95% of the OS market is child's play by comparison.
The way these things fail is if someone manages to circumvent it in the first few months in a way that every 12 year with a 56k connection can bypass it.
what are they going to do with the unsold units?
Easy use of your computer.
I am no MS lover, but your comment was definitly over-rated.
Their statement was actually quite apropos, though it should have contained a little detail.
As an anectdote, a friend of mine used Microsoft Windows Media Player to rip his music collection, and wondered why he couldn't play some of his music (he'd upgraded his video card IIRC). I showed him where to turn off 'digital rights management' and explained to him why DRM was newspeak for 'digital rights denial' and how the default settings of his OS were designed, deliberately, by Microsoft, to fuck him.
He was quite angry, and while he isn't ready to switch to GNU/Linux yet, he did download a free ripper and started reripping the music he could no longer listen to into OggVorbis format.
So yes, Microsoft is deliberately selling extraordinarilly crippled PCs to the average consumer, not only crippled by the limitations, bugs, and design flaws of their software, but deliberately crippled and broken in addition to all of that.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Yes, it's nice to be able to record stuff, but the price tag is too high on this new box.
My TiVo was a lot less expensive and offers the same functionality as far as video is concerned. But the TiVo seems to suffer the same "locked to play only from the same box that recorded the stream" syndrome (although it seems if you're willing to jump through constantly changing hoops it's possible to circumvent that. With 2 x 100 B disks to record my shows, I haven't been motivated yet to jump through the hoops (PPP out of the back serial port.)
At some point someone is going to release some free, easy-to-use software for capturing and editting video.
And, at some point someone is going to sell the hardware that makes this easy to do from your couch and easy to plug Ethernet, extra hard drives into the back. It doesn't have to cost $1500, either.
When those things happen, there will be a furor in Hollywood unlike what you've seen so far.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I would guess that this product is intended to fail.
That was the impression I got from reading the article, too. Consider this snipit:
This makes it sound very much like the primary motivation for creating this system is to make friends with the RIAA & MPAA. I think customer satisfaction is secondary to them. And remember, this is Microsoft we're talking about here. They have a monopoly on OSs. They can pretty much do what they want and the customers will be stuck with it. And Apple-heads and Linux-fans, please don't start screaming at me. I hear you. The problem is mainstream America doesn't.
GMD
watch this
Particularly Microsoft - now that the growth if off the PC rose, they desperately need new revenue streams to replace the upgrade treadmill.
sPh
I dunno...buying an overpriced, shackled, computer to watch and record music and (God help us) TV programs makes about as much sense as buying an overpriced TV to run your spreadsheets. Did the people running MS, HP, AOL, and all the rest have childhood fantasies about being movie moguls? This all smacks of a hangover from the late and unlamented flash-in-the-pan known as "convergence".
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Plenty of products by microsoft have failed miserably. Bob, for instance. WinMe for another. At best, they get resurrected in another form. Bob becomes Clippy.
And Clippy was such a success... It failed as well, why else would MS have created a websited devoted to it's retirement --- err demise...
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
I think this sentence says it all, really:"There's not that much more new you can do with your PC that you're not already doing."
HP crippled, doubtfull. Vectra line of corp desktops, a pleasure to work on, only truely toolless case I have ever seen. The only thing I have ever needed on a vectra was a torex-8 for the backplane and that was understandable as it was not supposed to move. Their workstations are also generally top notch, other than the MTH-hub fiasco that was general to all manufacturers that used sdram on early p-4's we've had no complaints. Their nt servers though could use a lot of work, but luckily they bought Compaq which makes some of the best in the world. Their unix servers are top notch, even if they do run a quirky UNIX variant.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Of reasons HP investors will sue the board of directors. Carly Fiorina, that idiotic Compaq merger, and now releasing these systems... morons.
Up until recently, I didn't think there was a quality alternative to Microsoft's Windows Media Player for playing videos on my box. This really started to irk me when they started factoring all kinds of DRM stuff into it -- into the EULA and the app itself.
Imagine my joy when I discovered that the newest version of WinAmp now supports video playback for a number of popular file formats. And even if it is an early release, it will only get better...... as such, I've uninstalled WMP and have no plans to upgrade my OS going forward. In fact, I suspect I'll probably be giving Linux a fair shot in the coming months....... I figure the ability to make the OS work for _me_ far outweighs the compromises I'd have to settle for if I went with Microsoft instead.
For a review, check this: http://www.macintoshdigitalhub.com/reviews/eyetv/i ndex.html
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
I can only hope that there are enough clueful computer users who violate intellectual property to create a large market for non-DRM hardware.
The thing is, I can't imagine that there will be a time when you can't compile and run your own programs because there are just too many developers out there. And if you can compile and run programs you can compile and run xvid codecs. If MS decide to have processors check for xvid etc headers then you can change the xvid headers to something else- put the info fields in a different order etc.
If people can't transfer their home videos to their pc, or their photos or home-made music, they're going to get pissed-off.
In fact, thinking about it, if Palladium is everything we fear, AND it becomes so that you can't even buy loose components that aren't palladium-based, then I don't see how you wouldn't get a huge mega-meltdown-apocolypse as people refuse to upgrade their computers.
It's certainly going to be interesting.
graspee
"Sounds like this thing is going to be DOA. Lots of other PC-based TV recording products that aren't restrictive when it comes to copying stuff goes..."
If Microsoft follows their typical business plan, they'll likely buy out one or two of the larger competitors, price out the rest, and then consumers will only have MS and maybe a lesser known "open-source" product from which to choose.
Why would anybody want that overpriced, crippled alternative??
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
While browsing around, I found what appears to be a standalone unit that you can use to browse and record broadcast television, includes no DRM controls, includes a 19inch screen, a remote control unit, speakers, and is contained in ONE unit. It does not record the broadcast digitally but the medium it uses appears to be compatible with 1000's of other units and is cheaper then any memory stick or other removeable device I've ever seen. I imagine a device like this sitting next to your computer would be a more logical choice for only $169.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
It's a popular myth, but I'm inclined to believe Arthur C. Clarke's statement that he didn't do it on purpose, didn't realize he'd done it until after the movie was out, and that he would have changed the name had he realized the relationship with the IBM name.
Maybe I can set it up as a server for my Audrey terminals.... the blind leading the blind, so to speak.
The GATOS project is very mature and all the Linux video drivers and TV capture features work flawlessly.
Combine that with a 120G harddrive and I never need to remember to set the VCR to record West Wing! :)
I recently put together a box to do the same thing, ut $1500 it was not.
Shuttle S50 - $300
Celeron 1.8 - $100
256MB DDR - $75
80 GB HDD - $85
DVD (w/WinDVD) $50
Hauppage FM-TV tuner w/ remote - $100
SnapSteam SW - $40
--------------------
$750
It outputs to my TV, records what I want, and I can watch DVD, DIVX, VCD, MP3, CD, etc. PLUS I can watch any recorded show on any moachine on my network. What do I get for the other $750
I'm very sad to totally agree with your analysis.
... so that congress can bless the "proven Microsoft Way" and force the Microsoft "technology" onto the rest of us.
This isn't an attempt for Microsoft to sell PCs or Windows.
Instead, this is an attempt to gain lobby support from MPAA/RIAA
It all comes back to the Microsoft strategy - once you're locked in, you can complain... but you're still a paying customer...
Soon Microsoft's operating system will be free, not just from Linux competition, but because of media management revinue. Thier digital restrictions management (DRM) will collect viewing fees from which Microsoft will keep a cut. Can you say, "Blockbuster Video on steroids"?
It is a fairly simple business plan. They become a regular utility bill.
"Digital Restrictions Management" is more accurate, and has the right letters at the beginnings of the words. :-)
I didn't coin this; it's been floating around for a while, I think. But we would do well to push this term into the mainstream.
The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
Seriously, everyone is going to have a boatload of these things on their shelves, unless some poor geeks can be persuaded to load them with Linux.
Hp and Microsoft announced today that they're updating an old idea for the 21st century.
...... "The PC Jr. - Media Center Edition"....
Following the IBM lead of many years ago they've created:
They're not "crippled PC's"...
They're "differently abled operating systems"...
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
- You can make something they want, so that they choose to buy it
- You can make it legally mandatory, either by direct requirement, or by outlawing the alternatives.
Which approach do you think best describes the marketing plan for this product?Turing machines in the hands of private citizens are as dangerous to our current ruling class as were weapons in the hands of the peasants in feudal times. Next thing you know, we'll start having laws ignoring the constitution and restricting our right as individuals to keep and bear arms.
Have a look at this project @ SourceForge; Freevo
There are others, like DVR, MythTV, HomeDVR
And there are here and here
Really, we dont need another device - a PC will work for this...
As evidence, may I present the millions of AOL subscribers.
Hey! America OnLine *IS* the Internet! I saw it on their commercials, so it must be true!
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
So, lets assume that you'll get close to $2000 worth of computer for your money. My only question is: why?
Do I have to turn in my geek credentials because I don't find TV on the PC all that compelling? I love DVDs on my laptop, and streaming audio and video, but we already have devices that are perfect to watch TV on... they're called televisions!. They have a simple UI and crash far less often than Windows does. We've had a box under the TV recording shows for years... Why does this box have to turn into a full-fledged computer just because we want to record these shows digitally now?
I have a TiVo and love using it, precisely because it doesn't feel like a computer when I'm using it! (Of course, it is -- the fact that I can upgrade the HD and add ethernet myself doesn't hurt, either.) When I want to rot my brain watching TV, I want it to just work, and I don't want to have to feel like I'm using a computer.
I always thought that Convergence meant that all of your dedicated media devices (which may actually be computers, but with a simpler UI) could talk to each other and exchange information, kind of like what Apple is trying to do with its iPod. Microsoft thinks Convergence means that all of your dedicated media devices become computers, running the latest MS OS, and with all of the problems and complications inherent in that. Of course, we know who's most likely to win this one...
Of course, the sad thing is that by making dedicated media devices more like computers and stuffing them chock-full of DRM badness, we'll end up making the actual computers more like dedicated media serving devices, since the same OS will run on both. :(
...
...
quack. quack. quack! quack! quack!
DRM protects the consumer.
quack. quack. quack! quack! quack!
Why is Triangle Man so MEAN?
"I know this wasn't in the product all along," he said. "I think it was Microsoft being overcautious. I really think it's unfortunate because it does hamper the functionality and usability of the platform."
I wonder what HP's response was, when Microsoft told them they were going to cripple the machine ?
Perhaps they just believe that there are *enough* people who don't use a computer to compute. They may well be right. My wife, e.g., uses it to edit music/art via commercial programs, and to word process, and for web access and e-mail. And that's about it.
But she's not going to get one of these! When it came time to change computers, I switched her over to a Mac. With a Linux partition. If Linux can get good enough, when she upgrades, it will be to a pure Linux machine. For now, it's to be Linux for internet access (so her Mac data isn't threatened by internet viruses), and the Mac for everything else. But I intend to use Open Office for the Word Processor (or possibly Star Office, after I check it out) and Mozilla for the browser. So she'll be half way converted before the year's out.
Still, the conversion can't happen until an art program as good a Deneba Canvas is available, and until a music program as good as Encore is available. But it's getting a LOT closer.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Palladium is Microsoft's software implementation of the TCPA standard. If you talk a stroll through www.trustedcomputing.org, you might notice that the hardware specification is platform independent. In fact, from the TPM FAQ at http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_07180
In fact, IBM has been shipping TCPA compliant Thinkpads for about a year now, and people install alternate OS's on them all of the time.
Also from the TPM FAQ:
"The defense of freedom requires the advance of freedom" - George W Bush
Actually ... that might be a good idea. If they use a hardware protection scheme instead of unduly restrictive laws, then I wouldn't have much trouble with it. Just as long as the restrictions only end up applying to *THEIR* content. I don't put any of their -ahem- garbage! -.- on my machine anyway.
And history shows that copy protecting something is a pretty sure way to cause it's long-term failure. I'd *like* it if the MPAA and RIAA failed. I'd shed no tears if MS joined them. But the main thing is that there'd be no reason for unreasonable laws affecting my use of my computer.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
OK... where's the details/facts?!
Is this really a version of Windows that won't allow you to run Winamp/Audiocatalyst etc? (XBox style - only runs digitally signed code)
Or just more restrictions on the bundled Windows Media Player?
Can't imagine it being 'only run signed code' - How can they stop you running Winamp/AudioCatalyst/Gnutella/CloneCD without stopping you running all other Win32 software?
Maybe it's a driver-level attempt to stop CD ripping/digital audio recording. But how the fuck do they expect to stop you playing an downloaded MP3? Only allow signed apps to play audio? What about games etc?....
If filename contains *.mp3, refuse to open/copy?
I like this quote:
"Everyone's been waiting for the great convergence product," Duboise said.
I think by "everyone" he means, software and hardware makers looking to generate some sales. I don't think he was talking about consumers. I can't think of a single person that would be interested in this. If this does sell, it would not be because of the advantages it offers, it will be because people were not aware of what they were actually buying and the rights they were throwing away with the purchase. You can do everything this has to offer now for less in price.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
What other company was named after its founder's penis?
(this is just too easy...)
WANG
... is that some people are actually going to buy these things.
What do I get for the other $750
;)
ehh looking at the description of the HP version, the answer appears to be:
DVD +R/RW drive, twice the RAM, a better processor, a 200 watt Klipsch sound system, a Ge Force4... and a whole bunch of annoying DRM crap
they want whats best for their pocketbook, rightly so. As soon as we as customers convince them,which IS best, I am sure they will blow with the financial wind. The real problem is 'consumer' apathy, as long as a company can make a good profit shoveling shit down consumers'
throats why should they try any harder ? When we make a the fall-out of a poor decision regarding customer rights a large financial hit things will shape up.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Yes, I am. But one of these things is not like the other. The rule is "satisfy consumer need at whatever price a consumer in a free market is willing to bear"
If, for instance, consumers would pay $1500 for a crippled PC because it came in a black case and looked more like a stereo component than a regular $500 whitebox, I'd have no problem -- so long as I, consumer, could also purchase a $500 whitebox, a Dremel tool, an ISO of Linux, and a can of paint.
(Were I more capitalistic, I might even go into the business of selling case mods :)
> there is a recognized benefit to conglomeration and annihilation, which falls off when you become a little too big.
Yes. And AOL/TW was the perfect example. And shareholders dumb enough to hold onto their shares instead of (a) voting them against the Board of Directors for such a mindbogglingly dumb idea, or (b) selling the shares as soon as the merger was announdced, have paid for it over the past two years. (To bring us at least marginally back on topic, I'd say the same for Compaq/HP - and that merger came within a hair's breadth of being voted down :)
> if you're going to claim it's not right for capitalists to ask for legislation that would ban competing products ... you've not looked at laws recently. it's just one more way of getting an advantage.
I claim it's not right, I don't claim it doesn't happen :(
I believe that those who leverage lobbyist dollars in order to use the power of the State to maintain an antiquated business model against the wishes of consumers in a free market, aren't worthy of the name "capitalist". I'm not sure what to call 'em. (I can think of lots of things I'd like to call 'em, but nothing I'd want to put in print on a family-friendly website like Slashdot. :)
> capitalism is not about consumers. it's about market.
And whom is the market for, if not the customer?
When the market ceases to be a means for providing customers with things they want at prices they're willing to pay, (whether by Congressional fiat or RIAA/MPAA cartel-like behavior), it ceases to be a free market, and those who choose to base their business plans on such an unfree market, cease to be capitalists.
If it's any consolation to you, there are very few capitalists around these days. (Sadly, it's no consolation to me.)
IBM tcpa , aka palidrome strategy worked. Millions and millions of stupid consumers bought them and still do not even know it. Here are their laptops, and desktops that are crippled. Notice they use the word secure and trustworthy in describing these. Now how many of the ignorant average computer users have had virus's? Wouldn't tcpa/drm appeal to them with words like secure? Scary as hell.
I remember reading a comment here about consumers will not buy this or will not put up with it. Well, it turns they already are without even knowing it.
http://saveie6.com/
What business flunky thought of this idea?
This is a product that early adopters and technically savvy people would buy, and it should be marketed as such.
By imposing all these restrictions on this device HPQ (ticker symbol for HP and Compaq post-merger) loses the "early adopter-enthusiast" crowd.
This product is doomed, and is a sign of things to come from HPQ.
Make yourself some money and short the stock.
-ted
what side is buttered...
"Jodie Cadiuex, marketing manager of Windows Media Center, defends Microsoft's decision to copy protect TV programs recorded to the PC's hard drive.
"Microsoft is in a leadership position here where we've got an opportunity to help Hollywood feel comfortable with digital distribution and to help them develop (digital rights management) solutions so consumers can have content everywhere," she said. "We have two relationships we have to balance here: the consumer who wants the content and Hollywood so they feel comfortable with that process and don't clamp down and make that impossible."
How many systems does hollywood buy and how much of your bottom line do they supply ?? Make hollywood happy and Fark the consumers and see how many boxes sell... Fark hollywood and make the consumer happy and hollywood WILL STILL produce movies for whatever system is out there, they have no choice..either that or close shop ?!?
It is so obvious that they are depending on the government forcing the use of the DRM that they are willing to bet AGAINST their own customer base...Last time I saw somthing like this was IBM and MicroChannel Bus, they had such great success there I can see why M$ would be anxious to copy them...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
I use my computer to:
Read Slashdot and Hotmail
Look at pr0n and other cool web sites
Play computer games
Listen to MP3s that I download from Kazaa.
Occasionally some "computing" happens there but my broadband-connected computer is basically a TV replacement device.
Now, I would never buy a mass-market PC like HP or Dell for home use (though I recommend Dell to non-geeks looking for a system) but I can totally see how some fool might buy one of these things, based on the media blitz we'll see around XMas.
In the inevitable lawsuits, HP will be left holding the bag while Microsoft laughs all the way to the bank. It amazes me that there are still companies gullible enough to partner with Microsoft on hardware. (Like have you seen Nvidia's stock lately?)
Yeah. Of course, this is the industry having (and giving it to you) both ways. When a kid microwaves my stellar CD, own the physical item, and if I want a new one I have to buy it. If I want to duplicate the physical item and let my wife play an MP3 in the car while I listen to the CD at home, I suddenly only own the license to use it in one place.
Even Microsoft are better than that - if I toast my Office CDs, they'll replace them for the cost of mailing a new CD out to me - because I've licensed the software.
This makes it sound very much like the primary motivation for creating this system is to make friends with the RIAA & MPAA. I think customer satisfaction is secondary to them.
I think you're wrong. There's already a power struggle going on for digital rights management, and, if the RIAA can't have their way through legislation or hardware compliance, do you honestly think they won't simply push the crippled-disc idea even further? There will come a day, probably very soon, where watermarked and encrypted (DVD-A) discs are the rule, not the exception.
Microsoft looks to be Covering Your Ass here, and appears to be merely paying lip service to the record industry. Why on earth would they deliberately alienate the consumer?
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
We're not productive anymore. We don't make things anymore.
Go away. Perhaps YOU aren't productive, and YOU don't make things any more, perhaps you're a consumer; a junkie which craves it's next fix like a drug; but I am not, nor are the other artists, musicians, programmers and writers who happen to read slashdot.
It's been a long time.
The problem with this approach (at least as far as Hollywood is concerned) is that both the hardware and the software companies have vested interests in making Hollywood's content available on their platforms. Witness the DVD player phenomenon. Despite Hollywood's protests there isn't a single DVD manufacturer (well maybe Sony) that doesn't have methods that allow for disabling region encoding and the other Hollywood induced crap. In fact, Apex has actually gained a following and an impressive marketshare by making this sort of thing easy to do. Apple also makes a living making ripping CDs easy to do. They even have devoted whole advertising campaigns to this concept.
Microsoft is a somewhat different case. Microsoft has a big enough user base that they are trying to push Hollywood into using their proprietary formats. Their idea is to get Hollywood to use Microsoft formats exclusively, and they promise to protect Hollywood's content if they do. This way you will have to use Windows to view Hollywood content. This isn't likely to work either, however, because there are simply too many legacy devices to switch formats, and (as you said yourself) digital medium is the great equalizer.
Even Microsoft are better than that - if I toast my Office CDs, they'll replace them for the cost of mailing a new CD out to me - because I've licensed the software.
What shipping method do they use? They wanted me to pay $30 for a replacement VC++ 6.0 CD.
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
RichMan wrote:
n ium/mgoals.html especially "What would such a system be like?").
;)
;)
n ...Dominate. ..
> Anyone know of popular fiction references to
> Microsoft. Directly or by implication.
"Godzilla 2000 Millenium" (American version "Godzilla 2000" chops out the "Millenium" references). Millenium was a Microsoft research project in the late 1990's (http://research.microsoft.com/research/sn/Millen
In the movie the "Millenium alien" seized control of Earth's computers (PC's, Macs, and even ones running the open source game emulator MAME). It planned to rule the world, and to do that, it needed a terrestrial form. It attempted to embrace, extend, and extinguish Godzilla.
The Mac-loving Monster King had no intention of giving up his crown to the ursurper, but was having trouble destroying it, after it had assimilated Godzilla's own healing abilities. Finally the alien opened its mouth way too wide and extended a big flap with tentacles grasping at him. Godzilla came to a decision, and dived in. Millenium gulped down his DNA with "Organizer G1" (a component of G-cells left over from earlier in the history of life when life was still evolving into widely diverse forms). All was well, until Millenium noticed Godzilla's spines begin to glow. The alien died in a massive nuclear fireball. Then the Dreaded God bellowed his triumph!
Microsoft's Millenium distributed network did have a cameo in the Japanese version of the movie. As Shinoda was about to leave the computer room with the MAME computers, he whirled around and stared at the monitors. All of them were displaying the "Millenium" boot screen.
It was the only moment in Toho's kaiju eiga where a Microsoft OS was shown with any unique identifying parts (window title bars, etc.) unblurred. Toho does not usually give Microsoft any product placement, even if a PC is used in a movie and its screen has vital info for the plot. PCs are rarely used, and usually by the bad guy (or at least the "wanting to destroy Godzilla" guy, or the "hasn't yet been reformed by Mothra" guy). Good guys use Macs.
The best thing that could happen with these crippled PCs would be product placement on the next Godzilla movie. Compaq stupidly tried that for two movies in a row, and look at where are they now!
"At this moment, it has control of systems all over the world.
And...we can't do a damn thing to stop it."
Miyasaka, Godzilla 2000 Millennium (Japanese version)
Millenium's Message (words appeared on all computer monitors):
"Earth...Destroy...Erase...Suppressio
Terror...Prosperity...Oppulence...Oppression...
Revolution...Kingdom..."
Godzilla 2000 Millennium (Japanese version)
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
These guys are marketing geniuses :)
This space left intentionally blank.
"Instead of a car, we will sell you an airplane. Isn't that great? BTW, you can only fly where we want you to."
Table-ized A.I.
I've seen NZ$5 in the past. Perhaps they're sending you a whole box by courier...
And $30 is still much, much cheaper than, "buy it again", which is what the RIAA would tell you.
But the RIAA can't do that. After all, it'd have to give at-cost CDs to everyone who dumped their vinyl, instead of minting it.
I wouldn't pay even $500 for a piece of crap like this, much less $1500.
If I felt like it, I could build a lot better, for a lot less...
What crack smoking weasel came up with this brilliant idea?
Not to me. Restrictions could, in principle, be either fair or unfair. But I think the connotation leans towards unfair.
A better ancronym for DRM is "Digital Rights Mutilation"
That's one way to look at it, because that's how its promoters want to use it. But if you're talking about the technology per se, it's inaccurate, because DRM doesn't necessarily impinge on freedoms. (Consider businesses using it to protect trade secrets.)
I think the term "Digital Restrictions Management" points out the salient fact about the technology. Unlike most technology, it doesn't let you do anything you couldn't do before--rather takes away your ability to do something you could do before! This, IMO, is the important message to get across.
The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
It's a popular myth, but I'm inclined to believe Arthur C. Clarke's statement that he didn't do it on purpose, didn't realize he'd done it until after the movie was out, and that he would have changed the name had he realized the relationship with the IBM name.
I'm inclined to believe A.C. Clarke's own words in the book itself where they discuss the relation between HAL and IBM.
Clearly it was known to him before he finished writing the book, let alone the movie, even if he didn't do it on purpose in the first place.
Considering the $1500-2000 price, it'll still be a dud even with the DRM cracked. They're marketing this as a high-end system with value-added features. Sure, anybody can build a DVR box for half the price with an ATI or Hauppauge tuner, but a GUI that works on a high res computer monitor pretty much sucks for a settop box. The big feature with XP Media Center edition is the dual mode GUI. One for regular PC use, and a simpler GUI for DVR/settop box use. There's a freeware project called Media Box that does pretty much the same thing. The other big question mark is the program guide. Tivo is $10/mo. ReplayTV is about the same or $200 for a lifetime subscription. Nothing in the article about whether there's a free program guide.
Not to mention that this crippled box is priced out of range of the supposed target market -- do YOU know any kids about to go off to college who can afford an extra $800 over the price of an equivalent standard PC, just to get a more compact digital entertainment center into the bargain??
Which means the very people whose "sharing" they're trying to curb are the ones who WON'T be buying it. What's wrong with this picture??
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Okay, that's another $250. So what do I get for the OTHER $500??
:)
Geez, you mean DRM costs $500? Forget it!
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Nah.. didn't you notice the price tag on those machines? Clearly, it really stands for Digital Restrictions Marketing!!
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Considering that, and considering that the vcr and tape recorders never killed the entertainment industry, I can only conclude that the *AA is actually attacking something entirely different than piracy.
I conclude, that because of the falling cost of the necessary tools to make movies/music of just as high audio/visual quality of the companies that the *AA represent, I think their ultimate goal is to artifically shut out these soon to be emerging competitors. I believe that is the true reason the *AA wants to gain more and more control over your computer.
Right now the *AA is recruiting our political representitives and Microsoft to help them. To politicians they give money under the table, passes to private celebrity parties, etc. To Microsoft they are offering legal solidification of their Monopoly.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Cheap distinction. By this token, nobody is productive; miners don't produce anything, they merely haul it out of the ground. Architects are in the same league as engineers.
The statement I was arguing was that we're all just media consumers, and that none of us contributes.
It's been a long time.
Hey, it was *her* idea.
I suspect that it isn't necessary, but I don't know the current Mac OS, and I didn't suggest it. (And she already *knows* I'm pushing Linux at her at every opportunity. And the first internet connection that I set up was on the Mac side.)
So I'm probably safe.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Don't need a new word, we already have "gag".
But in all fairness, who started all this mess, and who keeps raising the ante? Here's a clue: almost every story on Slashdot that has anything to do with the RIAA/MPAA and ways they might seek to protect their property, there's a flurry of responses that have this shortsighted "hah, we'll show them," attitude. This whole scenario is precisely the reason I've always advocated that the most effective solution is to CUT OFF THE MUSIC. Don't buy it. Stealing it does nothing to further the cause.
Bust Buy er Best Buy may very well not have commission sales but they do have a vested interest in not allowing your fair use rights.
They are the ones in fact which are also owned by a CD crippling maker.
Get your Unix fortune now!
I have not yet seen any evidence supporting the oft seen mantra Microsoft/Enron/Worldcom alone is sitting on enough cash that they could do XYZ. Sony, Disney and the rest of the RIAA/MPAA crowd do have a strong vested interest in DRM and could make money off it in the short term. Microsoft risks further alienating their shrinking user base with further decreases in functionality and interoperability, but must desperately need the cash flow to try betting on DRM:
First off, 1998's book keeping produced a discrepancy of about $20 billion:
Secondly, the world economy is and has been sluggish and the U.S. economy is in a recession, it's probably safe to say that the $18 billion loss from 1998 wasn't recovered in 1999. If the same accounting practices continued up till the Enron publicity, then it's safe to say that a similar adjustment (say $10-25 billion loss per year) can be applied for the years since 1998. Doesn't this co-incide with Bill's sudden interest in not being CEO?
Next, sales of MS-Windows, MS-Office, and Xbox have all been underwhelming recently. Likewise, MS-Outlook, MS-Exchange, MS-Passport, MS-IIS have all been rated three thumbs down in this age of increasing network security. It's hard to see which products are bringing in money for the company or which of their products even have a future. Linux is in the server room and catching up on the desktop. Macintosh OS X just did a complete end-run around NT,Win2000.
Lastly, Microsoft is a company that has grown through acquisition of products and smaller companies rather than innovation. Most MS 'innovations' or their key components have been acquired from outside by deals (Access, Frontpage, Explorer, DOS, disk compression) or via BSD-like licenses. Innovation leads to long term viability, see 3M for example. Acquisition-only leads to a typical dot-bomb stock comet, see Framfab for example.
Combine the first three above and odds are that this puts Microsoft into the red for 4 years running. At best, there are occasional visits to the break even point, but these visits wouldn't do more than barely dent the accumulated debt. The last point says stick a fork in it, it's done.
So while Microsoft may have an interest in DRM, I don't believe they have the cash to pull it off single handedly. That looks like pure myth. More likely, looks like they'll need MPAA/RIAA to help get all the friends that money can buy to avoid liquidation.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
it allows the big media/entertainment (and now computing) companies to manage your rights, digitally.
You mean the media/entertainment companies are giving us the finger?
--
Reverse outsourcing: it's the future
I liked fight club, but I only watched it once. Give me a break for not having the perfect memory I never claimed to have...
It's been a long time.
That was a combined quote from Twelve Monkeys and Fight Club. They fit together nicely because Fight Club was referencing Twelve Monkeys.
Anyway, the quotes are more of statement on our consumer society as a whole. And I personally find them to be quite accurate. If you find them offsensive, perhaps that is because they hit a little too close to home.
I bet if you think hard for a second, you can think of some consumer good that you'd like to buy. Now ask yourself why you want it. Not just the petty reasons but the deeper reasons. The ones you push to the back of your mind and never talk about. Before you buy your next screwdriver with miniature built-in radar devices, remind yourself that the things you own end up owning you.
First, I wasn't offended, I just thought it was wrong. Important distinction.
Secondly, I already do that. To ignore the cause of your impulses is to allow them to control you. In all things, I bring such thoughts to the foreground, and in knowing what I'm thinking at all levels, I can decide whether or not it's worth it.
It's been a long time.
Is the crap on tv that important to you people that you must record every second of it and save it for posterity? I'm sure that your life will go on if you miss an episode of Friends.
I mean, I like the show too, quite a bit actually, but if I miss an episode, I'm not going to spend much time worrying about being lost in the storyline. And if Coke decides to spend a little money to have one of their cans in the show rather than a Pepsi can, I'm not going to off myself in the name of anti-corporatism. Perhaps we could all focus our efforts and concern on something that matters a little more in the long run.
Ignore this issue and it will die the death it deserves. DRM on your PC won't happen anytime soon. If you want proof, look at Circuit City's failed DiVX format. The market sets the price, and the market has already said that it won't pay for something again that it already owns.
Same way they sold x-box.
Two words:
Exclusive Content.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
In the context of a thread about media content, arguing about physical good is a red herring at best and a straw man at worst.
As for my statement being wrong(or were you stating that what I percieved to be your statement was wrong? if that is the case, don't bother reading the rest), I ask you to prove it, here on the biggest library of individually created pieces of art, code, music, and literature on the face of the earth, the internet.
It's been a long time.