PC that acts like a TV

An anonymous reader writes "CNN is reporting on the newest HP Media Center PC, a PC that "acts like a TV". Seems to me it is a TIVO with some additional features, like storing and displaying pictures and music files. Runs on some sort of Windows XP." The real killer with this whole genre of device is cost and confusion. Users don't know what they do, so its not worth the cost. Anyone who has used a tivo for a week knows what it means. Business just needs to get the costs down. I think including functionality like pictures and music is a good step towards increasing value, as long as it doesn't add to the confusion.

Comments

TiVo doomed? Hah!

[TheSHAD0W]

And Slate thinks TiVo is doomed? When their competitors are trying to sell virtually the same thing for $1,400? Hah, I say! Hah!

more like a pc

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems to me this is just a pc with no monitor and a remote control that is supported by windows xp.
Big woop.

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[NineNine]

The average person has no fucking clue as to what a "Tivo" is or does. HP, on the other hand, has some great marketing people that can actually educate and market their products. Tivo's barely keeping their head above water due to very poor marketing. It doesn't give a damn if Tivo's product is better and cheaper. If nobody knows what it is or what it does, price and quality are a moot point. I predict that HP will trounce Tivo.

Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

New $5,000 Multimedia Computer System Downloads Real-Time TV Programs, Displays Them On Monitor

Re:Finally!

[Cyno01]

overclock your AMD right and you can make toast now

TV that acts like a PC

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks to xbox linux.

P4 1.8GHz?

[OutRigged]

What I'm wondering, is why do these systems come with such powerful hardware? P4 1.8GHz, 256mb RAM, GeForce 4 ti based videocard, etc.. For what it's supposed to be, I just don't see the point. Is it a media center, or a gaming system? That's the entire reason the price is so high. I'm sure they could pull off the same system, with all the same features, running off a VIA chip, or even a Celeron or Duron, and a cheaper videocard. Until they do that, they won't sell to many of these.

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[quiklilo71]

There's a few reasons I think they put it on such a platform: 1. XP is a pig; I have a couple of XP boxes in my home lan (2 of my pc's run XP; 3 run Linux), and it does so much unrequested-by-the-user work that it needs the horsepower just to run many times. 2.That's not that much horsepower anymore. a 1.6ghz/256ram pc is middle of the road by retail standards...not that you are I have all of our boxes so powerful. 3. Multitasking multimedia on anything less is often impossible (by multitasking I mean burning a cd, watching a film and downloading content simultaniously).

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[fiffilinus]

Ah yes, what about all this neat DRM functionality? Do you really think the encryption stuff for keying files to the media pc in question won't take cpu cycles? :-)
You really think those wonder machines will let you burn CDs for your car stereo?

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[cat_jesus]

The original SA Tivo runs on a 55Mghz PPC chip with 16 Meg of RAM. You are quite correct about bloatware. If they spent a little more energy on making a tight, light, stable OS and application perhaps they could use less expensive but suitable hardware and lower the price thus gaining market penetration.

.not that you are I have all of our boxes so powerful.

..begin unrelated rant..
Is the difference between are and or really that difficult? I can overlook "there's a few", but are instead of or? I hope for your sake that english is your second language. Or should I say for you're sake?

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus fucking christ. Show a little bit of post-12-year-old maturity and just let it slide.

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[jedrek]

Wow... and to think that I was doing the impossbile by burning CDs while working in Photoshop and Homesite while watching divx compressed movies with a couple of putty, kazaa, edonkey, mirc and bpftp sessions in the background on my P3-866.

Time to call the Weekly World News, we gots a miracle on our hands.

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[ergo98]

While it doesn't explain the GF4, the CPU can be explained as necessary if they haven't integrated a coprocessor for video compression: Even 3Mbps (ok quality) MPEG2 has my Athlon XP 1800+ gasping for air. I don't know what sort of video codec they're using, but if it's WM9 (a sort of super-MPEG4 supposedly) then increase the CPU usage accordingly. The desired goal is that they'd put actual integrated video compression hardware on there.

Personally I think this is a product area that will get huge: For everyone who's talking about how expensive it is, realize that people buy TV systems exceeding that cost frequently: This isn't a surprisingly high home entertainment cost. Hell, the home theatre market continues to strive, selling five digit projectors and similarly priced audio gear. I personally have been having a debate regarding my own entertainment system: My DVD player was one of the early ones, and I want to replace it with a progressive scan player. Additionally I want something to play MP3 and WMA, preferably over the network from one of my other PCs. What I end up needing, of course, is a computer at my TV, and that's the direction that I'm headed. My biggest problem was software (i.e. I would rather super simple, can't-screw-up, software for family and friends), however the Media Center software seems to fit the bill perfectly.

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[chewedtoothpick]

There are good reasons for this!
First off, this is no amazing feat. The 'mom&pop' store I run sells easily 3 or 4 systems a month that are made for the same reason. They are Athlon 1800+'s with 512 of DDR333 and all sorts of good stuff like a Leadtek Winfast TV2000 XP w/ remote and a 22" CRT. They sell like mad because I am able to sell these for only around $1300 as a PC that does TV AND gaming.

The fact that /. posted this shows that someone is way far behind on technology. TV Tuners with TiVO capability etc... have been out for a while. And they are good stuff to. But I am writing this post to address the parent coment claiming that the PC is too powerful.

TO SOME EXTENT IT IS RIGHT!

Now, the use of a TI series GF4 is way overkill. I throw Radeon 8500's or GF3 TI (because they are better then the 4mx and cheaper) in my TV/PC's and they do what they are supposed to flawlessly. One big problem that I used to always notice though it the TiVO app is a HUGE bandwidth hog. I used to be using PC-800 RDRAM and crappy INTEL's until Athlons starting using DDR. DDR Has a slight advantage that I have noticed because the quality of the data (and therefore picture) was greatly affected by the warmth of the RAM (I don't know why, so don't ask) and DDR is easier to keep cooler as well as being fast enough. The Ram is a little lack in this HP system because XP uses a good chunk of the ram, almost around 128M, and the TiVO as well as tuner need as much as possible.

As far as your keen intellect noticing that they should use AMD's or something else, you have to not forget. These PC's will sell like shit. There are way too many bone-heads out there that still think INTEL is the only thing there is. I could easily triple my sales overall if I sold anything INTEL, but I don't because I know.
being that the general public is just too ignorant, and Intel is in bed with all the big companies, especially Dellsux and Microshaft, You are going to keep seeing BS like thins until AMD releases the Hammer and intel is sitting, thumbing their neither-reigions waiting until they feel the market is ready for 64-bit.

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[ergo98]

The original SA Tivo runs on a 55Mghz PPC chip with 16 Meg of RAM.

I would imagine, with quite a bit of certainty, that it additionally has a video compression coprocessor to perform video compression and decompression (see this page which seems to concur, showing separate board chips for video compression and decompression, separate from the CPU), hence leaving the main processor basically as a custodian. I highly suspect this, as 4Mbps MPEG2 compression simply doesn't seem possible on a 55Mhz PowerPC.

Of course Microsoft could just get together with Sigma Designs or such and get some custom hardware to do it much more efficiently, but they probably want programmability (i.e. custom hardware can't adapt when a new codec comes out)

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[Trespass]

Shut the fuck up. That was uncalled for.

Re:P4 1.8GHz?

[xswl0931]

First and foremost, it's a computer. It just happens to have Tivo capabilities built into it.

It goes like this

[octalgirl]

This concept has been out for a while, but has never appealed to me. I have no desire to fight with other family members over TV time vs computer time. It goes like this:

Mom and Dad are watching their fav show, a commercial comes on and Dad says 'I need to check my mail' - click - 'Oh look, someone sent me a new joke' click-click - The screen goes black, the system reboots. Mom whacks Dad with the newspaper for opening a virus and making her miss the end of the show.

My computer has a TV-Tuner in it.

[basscomm]

So it can do all that stuff in the article, without costing so much.

Re:My computer has a TV-Tuner in it.

[Anonymous Coward]

M$ is just trying to get people to pay more for a new OS ("XP MCE").

Why give another $1500 to the M$ monopoly?--all I need is my Hauppage TV card and my Streamzap remote.

Re:My computer has a TV-Tuner in it.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're crazy if you really think MS makes a 1500 dollar profit for each machine sold. Put down the crackpipe.

castrated computers

[vstanescu]

May be this is just my opinion, but i am not willing to have a computer as a digital replacement for a TV. Yes, I like to have a TV tunner to watch or record something from time to time, but I am not such a huge TV fan.. there are days where I even don't look at the TV at all. I dislike all this trends to transform the computer in a multimedia black box. I want my computer to code, to write some documents, browse the net, even play games.. but I want it to have the feel of a computer, not of a tv or stereo. I enjoy the power to do whatever I want with my PC; if I want multimedia, I know what hardware and software to buy and use for this, but I would not buy a box that is limited to multimedia only and is sold as a "family device" to be placed under the TV. This is the same story with the Xbox - I understand it is a cheaper PC, but I love too much my opened case computer, in which i can fit whatever card I want, to switch to that black box, even if it has cool games or can run linux. I wonder if anybody else feels this entertainment devices as castrated computers, that lost all the fun.

Re:castrated computers

[dfeist]

Exactly my opinion. But it seems many people like the black boxes, and especially those connected to the TV. It's because they connect "TV" with more simplicity, while PCs are complicated (not my opinion, but what most people seem to think)

Re:castrated computers

[hdw]

Depends on what you use it for.
I've got a server with a TV-card in it, to record shows and put them on the intra.
Then I've got a pc with DVD, 5.1 audio and good quality TV out connected to the TV.
The recorded stuff ends up on the intra, if I want to see it on the 'real' TV I can do that, if I want to see on my workstation, or if the kids want to see it on theirs, no problem.
This also means that I have a live 'library' of cartoons and stuff for the kids, and they can choose between running it 'for all' on the main TV or for them self on their pc's.
- No juggling with worn out VHS tapes.
- No fights about what show to see.
- No stressed out dinners to get done before Cubix starts.
- Not being dogged down in front of the TV for something that I might want to see, but can't decide. Stream it from the server to a window on my workstation. Then I can continue to work, play or surf while partly looking at the show.
(Actually, there's a Discovery Channel documentary running in the top left on my monitor while I'm writing this, streamed from the server.)
- Early Warning System that tells me when the server is about to delete shows, so I can burn them on CD if I wanna keep 'em or remove fluff from the server.
- All pc's (the TV one included) can play any material from the VHS player, the DVD, the DVB box, homeburn CD's or live from the server.
- And still not forced to to it all on a pc monitor, sometimes I want to see that recorded show on the widescreen TV with full 5.1 audio, and with this setup I can choose.
It simply gives me the flexibility I (and my kids)want.

New XP Interface

[shird]

The 'some sort of Windows XP' he is talking about is problaby the Freestyle interface Microsoft is developing. Put simply, it is basically a shell for XP which has huge icons so that it can be viewed from a distance. Its a bit more than that though.

Also related is 'Mira' which is more for Wi-Fi type devices.

Re:New XP Interface

[Ultra64]

It's called Windows XP Media Center Edition

Re:New XP Interface

[DNAGuy]

It is Windows XP Media Center Edition. I expect more partner manufacturers (Dell, etc.) to offer Media Center PC's soon. It's basically Windows XP Professional with an app that provides a TV/Remote friendly interface to audio/video functions. Manufacturers are required to provide TV tuners, remotes, etc. in order to distribute the OS.

Re:New XP Interface

[LoudMusic]

Can't the same thing be done with a "Fullscreen" IE window? I'm talking about the F11 option that makes everything go away and the browser window fills the screen. Then just smack a couple plugins in there for a remote control and you're golden.

Please don't give MS more money for something you can do in an afternoon.

~LoudMusic

Re:New XP Interface

[nachoboy]

Since that link to winsupersite.com is a little dated, have a look at the Paul's new review of Windows XP Media Center Edition (updated 11 Oct 2002) as well as his new writeup on copy-protection and DRM in Windows XP Media Center Edition (updated as well).

Re:New XP Interface

[DNAGuy]

There would be nothing shocking about this. Microsoft routinely reuses functionality provided by the shell and "integrated" browser - as do many 3'rd party Windows apps.

Re:New XP Interface

[LoudMusic]

That's a good point.

No wait ... that means they're doing something ... InTeLlIgEnT ??

There's the SHOCKER! (:

~LoudMusic

Convergence - again!???

[The Mutant]

Apple has tried this several times, and Compaq has as well (tellingly, Compaq doesn't off this product / capability any more).

I'm not sure folks - and by that I mean the mass market, not geeks - are ready for this. I understand the HP product can record, unlike the MacTV (I own one, btw, as well as one of their 5500's which has a TV tuner card) or the Compaq machine but it seems like most people park their PC in one room and the TV in the other.

PC / TV convergence? Well, your toaster has been next to your refrigerator for 50+ years, and they haven't converged yet. I don't see a mass market for this now, and there clearly hasn't been in the past.

Nice box though.

Re:Convergence - again!???

[Shimbo]

You raise some interesting points, and I'm also generally sceptical about multimedia convergence. But that Compaq are no longer directly competing with HP is hardly a telling point, since the merger.

Re:Convergence - again!???

[esarjeant]

Remember the Philips DVX3000? It was essentially a PC inside a stereo component form-factor with a tweaked version of Win98. This was one of the early promises of convergence and it gave users the ability to run PC applications on their TV.

Aside from stability issues (the unit managed to crash numerous times during demos), the limited resolution of NTSC made this impractical. From a purely technical standpoint, the DVX3000 failed miserably.

A better example of the failure of convergence might be the CD-I format. In many ways, CD-I was very much like DVD but it failed because only one company was onboard with this format.

So; the lessons of convergence are quite simple. The NTSC television has insufficient resolution to support anything more than video and technology can only converge when standards are readily available to many vendors.

While HDTV is fixing the problems of low-rez TV, this is still 5-10 years away. Microsoft is too early with this kind of technology, but if they can spur the growth of the HDTV market in the process they might be successful. Obviously, the stability issues have been reconciled and the advent of MP3 makes convergence slightly more compelling. Since they are licensing this software technology, it might be possible for MS to make a dent in the home appliance market.

Meanwhile, TiVo is a niche product that solves a problem (recording TV shows without programming a VCR) that happened exactly at the right time (ie: when DVD was making the VCR obsolete). While it's not truly a convergent device, it does demonstrate how a computer can enable your home entertainment system.

*uh*em cough cough hello???

[Billly Gates]

These new multi-media pc's just wouldn't happen to be thesedrm crippled babes?

sigh.

Cmd taco, sometimes I feel like I want to bitch slap you. Bad taco bad.

Ouch!

[AntiFreeze]

This thing scares me. It costs $1,400, and a monitor is *extra*. In other words, they're just selling a computer preconfigured to hook up to your television.

The article is short on details about the computer, this is what it says:

The HP computer, which will be available by the end of October, comes with a remote control, television tuner, and can record and play television shows and digital music. A monitor is extra.

Nothing special whatsoever, but what really scares me is what the executive VP of CompUSA says: "The remote control could well become the next standard PC peripheral". Huh? Is he saying that computers are heading down the path of glorified televisions and that in the near future all that you will need to operate your computer is a remote control?

Something's very fishy. This thing is a computer with a tv tuner card, it shouldn't approach $1,400, even with a monitor included. There have to be some other gimics, otherwise this thing seems to be one big rip off.

If someone's got real information on this thing to counteract the lack of information presented by CNN, that would be greatly appreciated.

Re:Ouch!

[NineNine]

Is he saying that computers are heading down the path of glorified televisions and that in the near future all that you will need to operate your computer is a remote control?


EXACTLY! That's what people want! People want *simple*. Leave the real computers to the geeks. Hell, the PS2 is almost an all-in-one box... games, movies, and music all in one little box with a remote control. They add a SIMPLE Net connection to the next gen PS2, and a SIMPLE email and web interface (yes, that you can operate with a remote), and they'll have convergence.

Re:Ouch!

[AntiFreeze]

Yes, I agree, people most certainly want simple. But there's a line. There are many functions of a computer that just cannot be accessed by using a remote, short of that remote being some type of keyboard.

On the other hand, if what you use a computer for can be boiled down into functions a remote control can send to your computer, then you can probably find something much cheaper than that computer to acomplish the task. If all you plan on using your computer for is tv viewing, buy a tivo, it's much cheaper than a computer, and you get all the same functionality. If you only use your computer to play mp3s, invest in an mp3 player, the computer is overkill.

Also, with respect to your PS2 comment, it's a device designed for a specific task, and is much cheaper than a computer.

In my roundabout way, I think what I'm getting at is that computers should be generalized. You should be able to do what you want with them. If you buy a computer and it's set up to do only one thing well, then to me you're not buying a computer, you're buying an appliance. TiVo is an appliance in that sense, so is the PS2. And those appliances are much cheaper than the general computer you could buy which can perform all those tasks. So if remote controls become the "next big peripheral", then the machine they come attached to better be damn cheap, or that remote control better include a keyboard.

I hope I've made some sense, I running on 0 hours of sleep right now.

Re:Ouch!

[Saeger]

You forget one thing: People are used to paying more for computers than 'simple' appliances, so if they promote the thing as a "TV Computer!", rather than a "yet another boring set-top blackbox", you'll get more suckers paying the higher price because they expect it.

Re:Ouch!

[martyb]

... but what really scares me is what the executive VP of CompUSA says: "The remote control could well become the next standard PC peripheral". Huh? Is he saying that computers are heading down the path of glorified televisions and that in the near future all that you will need to operate your computer is a remote control?

No, I don't think a remote would be "all you will need to operate your computer". There was a time when a computer did not come with a mouse, but I'd dare say it's a "standard PC peripheral today." This doesn't mean that they've now dispensed with the keyboard -- it's just another standard control that comes with the PC. So, I take his comment to mean that there would be another standard peripheral that would come with a PC. So, you'd then have: a keyboard, a mouse, AND a remote control.

I would love to have a distro that would do this!

[quiklilo71]

I haven't rolled my own distro yet although my skills are increasing. A multimedia box has been the topic of many of my conversations, but I haven't made one yet simply (kind of silly or a reason) because the only way I knew I could get it to work would be with winwoes. This type of box would have to be totally easy and with little tweeking as possible. I know with XP I could make a box (under a grand for the hardware) with at least 100gb, a 1.6g processor, dvd,a wifi card,wireless mouse and keyboard, and a nice video card to connect to my televison so I could watch all the content I want,esp since I fileshare. But the tivoish functionality, wow... maybe Red Hat or some other major distro will make such a Linux version. I'm sure most of the linux community (at least the people I speak with via im, mail and lugs) could care less about multimedia; it's all about the code; but I'm a media junkie and I know I'm not alone. Your thoughts?

Tivo-wannabes don't get it

[Brento]

As an All-In-Wonder Radeon owner, here's the deal: PC's will never replace Tivos until they can replicate Tivo's Season Pass functionality and knowingly record not only the shows I want, but the ones it thinks I will want.

My All-In-Wonder Radeon is a pain in the rear because it won't track schedule changes and automatically record the show I want every time. When a show gets delayed by a football game, or like TLC just randomly changes schedule, I end up with recorded footage I don't want while missing the show I really DID want.

Plus, when the Discovery Channel shows a one-time special, "When Animals Attack Cops During Natural Disasters", or one of those other shows I love, the Radeon's software (ATI MMC) isn't smart enough to tape it automatically. Come on, guys, it can't be that hard if Tivo can do it. We're so close...

And now, 1,000 Linux guys are going to tell me that we could easily write our own using a web-based TV program repository, but just like every time I post this, the repository doesn't exist. Gemstar has it nailed down, and the market is locked up on that one.

Re:Tivo-wannabes don't get it

[Zeinfeld]

As an All-In-Wonder Radeon owner, here's the deal: PC's will never replace Tivos until they can replicate Tivo's Season Pass functionality and knowingly record not only the shows I want, but the ones it thinks I will want.

It is not necessary for the card manufacturers to provide this, all they need to do is to provide a standard API that allows control the card. It would be even better if it was a Web Service so you could control the device remotely.

Of course Tivo probably have patents covering the more blatantly obvious techniques here.

Rather than asking why the HP device costs $1400 for a tivo, consider why it costs $1400 for a PC! I just bought a new motherboard, processor, RAM and video card for $350 that give a remarkably similar performance.

Re:Tivo-wannabes don't get it

[Fnkmaster]

Not quite true. Check out XMLTV. I think you might find that all the guide infrastructure in available in a nice, Free package. So given that much of the backend work has already been done, you just need a nice guide program to use XMLTV guide data (i.e. parse XMLTV's XML format) and implement the relatively simple logic of tracking shows and making sure to schedule recording of them.

I actually started working on this a bit for the excellent DScaler TV tuner card app (this is a Windows app), but I haven't gotten very far yet, mostly due to having lots of other more pressing projects, but I wrote some hack-job code to display current guide data in a simple box overlay drawn on top of the DScaler TV window. It really needs a much more comprehensive treatment than that, but the point is this is a couple of week project. If you are interested, get in touch.

Re:Tivo-wannabes don't get it

[Hast]

I think it is:

$1000 for the HP logo
$50 for S/H

Re:Tivo-wannabes don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

DigiGuide can drive just about any software that supports either commandline or a programming interface.

You can even write your own DigiGuide Addins to fire whenever a programme starts/stops or when a DigiGuide alert is fired.

DigiGuide 6.0 (beta) also now supports just under 5,000 USA channels.

Re:Tivo-wannabes don't get it

[reticent94]

As an AIW 8500 owner IMHO that is it's single biggest problem. XP Media Center Edition does not have this problem however. See:

WindowsXP Media Center Review
and
Screenshot of the series screen

Re:Tivo-wannabes don't get it

[offlerthecrocgod]

the Discovery Channel shows a one-time special, "When Animals Attack Cops During Natural Disasters", or one of those other shows I love,

Yee I love that show its the BOMB!!! seriously did you see the one where a mongosse bit the balls of that traffic cop in the middle of Force 6 winds? great T.V.

Re:Tivo-wannabes don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

I was watching 'The Mind of a Married Man' on HBO, and the main character had to record porn to trick his Tivo into thinking he wasn't gay. I'm curious if any gay slashdotters have had their cover blown by this device?

Re:Tivo-wannabes don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

These PC solutions don't necessarily need to replicate all of the tivo's functionality in order for them to sell. As long as they cost less and give you 80 - 90% of the functionality they will sell.

I have an All-in-wonder card that i really like. The software that comes with it sucks though. I don't really care about it recording every episode of the simpson's that isn't a priority with me. I just want the software (however limited) to be easy to use and it isn't very intuitive. To sum up not only does it not do everything the tivo does but it doesn't do what its suppose to do very well. But i don't have a monthly fee and i got a firewire connection to boot for about half the price of a tivo.

Re:Tivo-wannabes don't get it

[Duds]

Unless I've gone all windows CE in my old age, isn't Digiguide, or rather its application, exactly what you need?

PC-TV

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm this NEW HP is supposed to be fresh and nimble?

I've had a homebuilt dedicated PC-TV for about 3 years now. This device is nothing new. And my device does not have any copy controls for playback etc.

This PC-TV has a special feature that includes copy controls as provided by the special version of our favorite OS.

I wish mom and pop would be wise to this scheme...

Mac TV

[mekkab]

Yeah, a friend of mine had one of those "sears macs" from 7 years ago... (a quadra? performa? all the names meld together after a while) and she didn't have a tv but she did have a coax connector in the back, so she'd watch tv on her mac. IT was a nifty trick.

However her system had 1 SIMM slot (WTF?!) so it wasn't as if you could run permier and make some captures and put them in movies.

Without a killer app it isn't going to be more than a parlor trick. But then again, without having these parlor tricks around you don't give anyone the opportunity to create a killer app!

But given the inherit difference in the user interaction model:
TV: Sit. Watch. Enjoy!
PC: Sit. type. click. read. type some more. enjoy!

Don't get me wrong, there are spectator aspects to a pc- why, look at console gaming (the best example of TV/PC convergence yet)- even in games that aren't head to head I can watch my wife play and still have a good time.

Re:Mac TV

[MamasGun]

Basically the MacTV was an LCII with a TV tuner. It was also a spiffy black when everyone was making beige boxen. Ahead of its time and now a major collectors' item amongst Mac fans. Just don't try to use it...it didn't do computing well and it didn't do TV well.

problems

[d80tb7]

The problem with this is that this isn't just being marketed as a entertainment box as in Tivo but as a practical computer as well. In some ways this justifies the extremely high cost of the unit but it also causes a couple of problems namely:

display: Most Tvs are not of sufficient quality for displaying text clearly which makes them unsuitable for general computing. Most computer monitors are far smaller than you would wish to watch TV/DVD's on. Unless LCD screens get an awful lot cheaper this problem really isn't going to be solved.

functionality: If your going to use this as your main PC what's going to happen when someone wants to play a game/write a word document etc etc etc? Does everyone else in the family have to stop watching TV?

Phobia: people are in general afriad of computers. My mum likes TIVO because it doesn't look like a computer and it does its job well. This thing would scare the hell out of her somply because it's a pc.

All in all I think there's a place for this thing but only if they cut the price and market it as a piece of consumer electronics as opposed to an all singing all dancing pc.

Re:problems

[DNAGuy]

According to an article I read (can't remember where), it's primarily being marketed to students and other tech-savvy customers as a space-saving convergence unit. Kind of a swiss army knife for single person households.

Re:problems

[Twirlip of the Mists]

display: Most Tvs are not of sufficient quality for displaying text clearly which makes them unsuitable for general computing.

Keep in mind, though, that this is gradually changing. Mine is a 34" HDTV that can resolve 1280x720 very nicely. (I can drive it at 1920x1080 as well, but only interlaced, and interlaced makes for unpleasant viewing of static material like text.)

I paid out the ass for my TV earlier this year, but smaller televisions with similar capabilities are getting cheaper and cheaper. As the deadline for various FCC mandates approaches, expect TVs with 800-or-more lines of resolution to be the rule, rather than the exception.

Re:problems

[user32.ExitWindowsEx]

Unfortunately for MSFT and HP, the people they're trying to sell it to are the people most likely to have the skills to build their own box.

Re:problems

[anthony_dipierro]

display: Most Tvs are not of sufficient quality for displaying text clearly which makes them unsuitable for general computing. Most computer monitors are far smaller than you would wish to watch TV/DVD's on. Unless LCD screens get an awful lot cheaper this problem really isn't going to be solved.

Definately. I don't have any desire for mixing my computer monitor (small, high resolution, fits on my desk) and my TV monitor (large, high resolution not necessary, fits in my entertainment center).

I'm all about mixing my DVD player, cable box, computer, etc., but it's not something that's going to happen until I finish running coax into a wiring closet or something. And even then the DVD player will have to wait until I can get a couple terabytes for a couple hundred $s.

Hmmm....

[Pig Hogger]

Computer? TV?

I'd like to see if a beowulf cluster of those would be more stupid than the collective of everyone watching the boob tube...

Re:Hmmm....

[ShieldW0lf]

Nice Sig

Re:Hmmm....

[Pig Hogger]

Computer? TV?

I'd like to see if a beowulf cluster of those would be more stupid than the collective of everyone watching the boob tube...

Re:Hmmm....

[Pig Hogger]

Computer?
TV?

I'd like to see if a beowulf cluster of those would be more stupid than the collective of everyone watching the boob tube...

No thanks!

[Anonymous Coward]

No BSOD?
No driver update?
No configuration wars?
No reboots?
No buffer overflows?

What should *I* do? Watching ads?

freevo?

[nico_le_blob]

Anyone checked freevo.sf.net ? Reads divx/dvds, mp3/ogg, image files, watch tv... and is free software of course...

Re:freevo?

[EvilStein]

Looks kind of cool. Icons ripped right off from Mac OS X and everything.

It's not rocket science

[squarefish]

I have the same thing from just adding a $150 ALL-IN-WONDER® RADEON 7500

All the same functionality with the remote control on my current system.

Re:It's not rocket science

[NineNine]

Congratulations. Unfortunately, you're not the target market for these things. Most people don't even know what a "Radeon" is. You try to explain it, and most people will just look at you funny. So yes, for most people, it would be considered rocket science.

Re:It's not rocket science

[squarefish]

well frankly, then they shouldn't be using computers to begin with!

Re:It's not rocket science

[NineNine]

well frankly, then they shouldn't be using computers to begin with!

Typical geek attitude. And anybody who can't gap their own spark plugs, and change their own timing belt shouldn't be using cars either, huh?

Re:It's not rocket science

[Latent IT]

Well, I'll go out on a limb.

If I show you how to gap your spark plugs, and then you still can't do it, then you probably shouldn't be using a car. I honestly think if we got rid of the bottom 25% of drivers ranked by skill, we'd do away with 90% of the accidents. But that's neither here nor there.

The same sort of thing goes to computers. If I make you (hi mom!) a dial up networking icon on the desktop, and you still can't click it after I show you how a few times, just stop, okay? Go listen to the radio. Seriously, not everyone 'needs' a computer.

Avoid these machines

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe they are the drm mentions mentioned above in your url. Also I would not be suprised if it recorded tv shows only in encrypted drm wmv formats. If this is a pallidium system then it may not be able to run linux as well.

This is just the beginning of the ms drm is for multimedia campaign from Microsoft. We must educate consumers about these horrible machines. They do not bring out multimedia but rather cripple it.

Blah! Only Consolidation and not Innovation

[CresentCityRon]

The article states that the inddustry expects computer sales to lukewarm since people are happy with what they have.

HP should be looking for exciting NEW concepts to exploit. Bring a little excitement to the industry.

PC. PC/TV. PC/TV/Stereo. PC/TV/Stereo/Phone. Nothing new....

Blah! Consolidation and not innovation.

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[Anonymous Coward]

really people are gonna buy a computer for their tv and such? most people arent geeks bud

Great idea!

[Anonymous Coward]

The refrigerator outputs heat... can this be used to toast bread -- or cooking? Or even just for keeping rice warm?

Tried before ages ago

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of us may remember a product from Amiga (remember them?) called the "Hard Drive TV" (?). It cost too much, and like this thing, nobody was sure what it was. It'll probably end up the same way.
Intergration between computers and television is going to happen, just not yet.

Windows XP Media Center Edition

[HashDefine]

Is the 'some sort of Windows XP' he is talking about windows XP Media Center Edition

DRM?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it this DRM crapped thing which was reported weeks ago?

its drm crippled and may not be able to run linux

[Billly Gates]

I already got modded down as a troll for mentioning this but just a month ago I saw this link about these crippled boxen.

Yes, they are drm crippled in hardware but I do not know if they use palladium or not. If they do use pallidium then no linux is not an option.

I have not seen one comment here mentioning about this important issue.

I'd love to have linux do that!

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't rolled my own distro yet although my skills are increasing. A multimedia box has been the topic of many of my conversations, but I haven't made one yet simply (kind of silly or a reason) because the only way I knew I could get it to work would be with winwoes. This type of box would have to be totally easy and with little tweeking as possible. I know with XP I could make a box (under a grand for the hardware) with at least 100gb, a 1.6g processor, dvd,a wifi card,wireless mouse and keyboard, and a nice video card to connect to my televison so I could watch all the content I want,esp since I fileshare. But the tivoish functionality, wow... maybe Red Hat or some other major distro will make such a Linux version. I'm sure most of the linux community (at least the people I speak with via im, mail and lugs) could care less about multimedia; it's all about the code; but I'm a media junkie and I know I'm not alone. Your thoughts? yes I know this has already been posted,but it desires it's own thread!

Or, 100% legitimately

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks to ps2 linux.

what if I just want a thin client for my TV?

[fetta]

What I want is a an inexexpensive thin client for my TV - say ~$200 - that could:

a. act as an X server when needed
b. connect to my stereo to stream audio from my PC upstairs.

SO, minumum would be TV out, 802.11b, sound card.

Press F2 to enter BIOS Setup

[yerricde]

If they do use pallidium then no linux is not an option.

Well, can't you just turn off Palladium in the BIOS setup? The Palladium spec REQUIRES such an option.

HEY ASSHOLE

[cscx]

You know, it's pretty lame when you respond to your own post as AC (located just above this) to simply restate what you said here.

You don't have to comment the same repetitive shit 3 times in a thread.

By the way, get a DRM education - Palladium is able to be disabled quite easily. Why don't you get some education about a subject before you start flaming left and right?

Mira? Freestyle?

[yerricde]

problaby the Freestyle interface Microsoft is developing ... Also related is 'Mira'

Mira? Freestyle? What does Microsoft think it's making, a BMX simulation?

bad analogy

[squarefish]

Typical geek attitude. And anybody who can't gap their own spark plugs, and change their own timing belt shouldn't be using cars either, huh?

The target customer of a $1400 computer with a tv card is the same user that constantly has problems keeping their computer running through stupidity, not necessarily a lack of tech or mech skills.

If someone is constantly crashing their car into walls and others- destroying other peoples cars, then we have a system that removes their right to use a car.

We also have a system in place called licensing which allows us to have some faith that others are responsibly operating their equipment/machinery in a safe manner.

I also find it very interesting that when the big computer manufacturers decide that people aren't buying new machines they pull out 5 year old technology, double the price and pretend that nobody had this option before. The cards are on the shelf and anyone can walk into computer store and pick one up. Also, most hardware like this has very plain instructions to make the installation dummy proof.

Re:bad analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

>>>, not necessarily a lack of tech or mech skills.

For some reason when I read that I automatically started thinking of a bunch of overall clad engineers in a veritech launch bay of the SDF-1 crawling all over a big battle mech changing the protoculture cells, upgrading the bios and stuff like that.

Mech skills, heh.

Sony already has this, but they are more expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

The ignorance of the slashdot crowd, and new media once again proves itself. Sony already has a TV connected pc, complete with remote, starting at $1,999. Check it out. Now who's over priced?

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[LordNimon]

A lot of people know what a TiVo is, they just don't think they could benefit from one. They see it as a "fancy shmancy VCR", and they're pretty much right.

Several popular TV shows have made references to them. I think even Oprah once talked about TiVo. A lot of people know what a Saab is, but how many of them do you see on the streets?

Good News: HP took a stand against DRM

[Melantha_Bacchae]

Billly Gates wrote:

> I already got modded down as a troll for
> mentioning this but just a month ago I saw this
> link [slashdot.org] about these crippled boxen.

I've got good news. According to this story:

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-961376.html

referred to here on Slashdot:

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/10/09/ 17 52228&mode=flat&tid=109

HP forced Microsoft to back down on their DRM stance. Sony offers a competive product that does *not* include DRM. HP felt they could not compete if they were crippled.

Now if we could only get Apple, Sony and HP to go to Washington DC and tell the media sharks' pet congress critters what to do with their stupid DRM legislation, the good guys would win a big one.

"Lightning shines on wavey beach, and all clouds are made right:
Happiness Appears!"
From the song "Infanto no Musume" in the Japanese version of Mothra (1961).

G Countdown: 16 days (www.godzillaoncube.com)

Re:Good News: HP took a stand against DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.intertrust.com/main/home/press/2002/020 523_sony.html

You won't find Sony going down to washington considering the fact that Sony has big plans for using DRM in future products.

Yes, HP forced MS to disable the DRM by default so that the content could be played on a second PC. However you have to be running XP SP1 on the second machine in order to watch the content using WMP9. On top of that broadcasters like HBO, Showtime, Cinemax and others plan to take advantage of the content protection that has been included and broadcast with the signal that turns on the DRM so that people cannot copy the shows onto another PC and watch it.

Re:Good News: HP took a stand against DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if we could only get Apple, Sony and HP to go to Washington DC and tell the media sharks' pet congress critters

So, Sony (computers) need to stop the evil RIAA/MPAA (Sony and others). I can see there being a bit of a wait.

Merchants' marketing sucks

[Devlin-du-GEnie]

CmdrTaco said:

"The real killer with this whole genre of device is cost and confusion."

Based on a wide sample (here, me), merchants are doing nothing to reduce confusion. I bought a TiVo at Best Buy two weeks ago. They were boxed on a shelf. No demo unit was set up. No remote was available to touch and use. They had the cables baggie lying out, so I was able to see that I didn't need to buy any, but that was it.

The reason TiVo rocks is its functionality, interface, and ease of use. I heard about it from fellow geeks. If you're not showing those features to Joe and Jane Consumer, why would they be interested?

Karma is what occurs between posts.

Re:Merchants' marketing sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

I can remember fair trade laws. Yes, prices were higher, but at least the dealers had to have knowledgeable salespeople, demo rooms, and service departments.

Now there are no soundrooms, the salespeople only want to sell what they get a kickback on, know little or nothing, and are quite often flat out wrong and or misleading.

Good sales people in any kind of electronics store are rarer than hens teeth. If you find one, treat well, thank them, refer friends to them. Tell their supervisors that you were pleased with their help.

Any manufacturer who does not advertise extensively, pay the retailer for 'placement', bribe the salespeople for each sale, and provide product feature cards and other point of sale materials is fighting an uphill battle.

That being said, I got a Direct TV Tivo with the two tuners. Dealer didn't even try to sell me the second coaxial cable to hook up the second tuner, but was more than willing to sell me the rest of the system. And he was the 'expert' that I was handed off to because the first salesperson knew nothing about the satellite systems!

The TIVO is everything good that people say about it. It is as revolutionary as taking the corners off the wheel!

TIVO will sell not because of the stores and their sales clerks (associates), but because of the word of mouth of owners evangelizing and showing their systems to others. The only question is how quickly TIVO's will sell. Will it be quickly enough to make TIVO profitable before they burn through all their investment money. I hope so and am doing what I can.

RB

Re:Merchants' marketing sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

RB

Richard Bullwinkle? Is that you? :-)

and in other news...

[twoslice]

The next generation of TiVo can be used just like a computer!

Cost

[alexmogil]

If this device was around $250, would Slashdot be highlighting its ability to be hacked and replaced with a Linux distribution?

Is the only difference between this needless device and an Xbox the cost - and maybe the fact that Microsoft is 'losing money' on the Xbox?

I've had one for a year

[ShieldW0lf]

I'm posting this comment from the sofa on it.

Lian-Li PC-12 Black Aluminum Case (2x80mm in, 1x80mm out)
Enermax 350W PSU (1x80mm in, 1x80mm out)
Lapped Duron 600 @ 980 (7.0x140)
Lapped GlobalWIN FOP32 @ Arctic Silver II
Asus A7V133 MB w Promise RAID
2 x 256MB PC133 RAM
40G Western Digital Caviar HD (VIA - Primary Master)
Lite-On 40x12x40 CD-RW (VIA - Secondary Master)
60G Seagate Barracuda ATA IV HD (Promise - Primary Master)
Pioneer DVD-ROM DVD116 (Promise - Primary Slave)
40G IBM Deskstar 60GXP (Promise - Secondary Master)
Lite-On 52x CD-ROM (Promise - Secondary Slave)
Asus V7100 Deluxe Combo Video Card (Lapped P100 HSF @ Arctic Silver II)
62cm Television on RCA output
Hercules GameTheater XP
Boston DT6000 5.1 Speakers on Optical SP-DIF output
3Com 10/100 NIC
Logitech Freedom Optical Keyboard/Mouse
Microsoft Sidewinder Pro Gamepads (2)
Homemade Remote Reciever (Serial Ports obsolete, eh?)

This is mostly old tech now, but it still plays DVDs, plays DivX5/AC3 spanned across up to 3CDs for highest quality, holds 70GB of MP3s, surfs web, checks mail, plays 3d shooters, emulates every console and arcade game EVER, captures, timeshifts, does slideshows off my digicam, supports my universal remote, and is simple enough for my wife to use.

Microsoft and HP can keep their crap.

Re:I've had one for a year

[ShieldW0lf]

Oh, and it's full of digital rights: MINE

Re:I've had one for a year

[CaptCanuk]

I'm building my own now... It's great to see those hardware specs but what software are you running? OS and actual software? Thanks.

Re:I've had one for a year

[bizitch]

How come you got those DVD and CD Drives on as Secondaries to your harddrive primaries?

You may want to isolate your CD and DVD drives to thier own IDE bus to improve performance.

Also -
I built one of these myself and found that NOISE from fans was the biggest drawback. How did you address this?

Re:its drm crippled and may not be able to run lin

[Anonymous Coward]

It's boxes, twat. There's no such word as "boxen."

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, a TiVo *is* a computer. Runs Linux. Ethernet capable. You know. Computer?

TRS-80?

[Proc6]

Now what they REALLY need to do is make a computer that's entire guts are inside the keyboard, and.... and make it use your TV as a monitor! YEAH! Through a little tinfoil pronged RF convertor box! That would rule!

Stuff I actually use

[BenEnglishAtHome]

functionality like pictures and music is a good step towards increasing value

OK. Agreed. But I sure don't need another computer to get this done. My bottom-of-the-line Apex DVD player will serve just fine. I use my computer upstairs to burn a disc with MP3s, throw it on the DVD player attached to my home theater downstairs, and - voila - I have music. I burn a disc full of jpgs, shove it into my DVD player, and I get a fine slide show.

Most people have no idea how wonderful these capabilities are. I can send a disc to my mom and just tell her to put it in that DVD player I got her from Wal-Mart. With no effor on her part, she then gets a bunch of old country music she loves (with no idea that I got it off Usenet) or a slide show with pictures of my cats.

But just because I think these are valuable things doesn't mean I'm willing to part with another kilobuck or two for the privilege of wedging another box into my home theater system.

Runs on some sort of Windows XP?

[a.out]

Right from the article it's called "Windows XP Media Center.".

I have had the privelage of seeing and using Windows XP Media Center edition live, up close and personal.

My humble impression: It kicks TIVO's ass. In fact it kicks TIVO, ReplayTV, Snapstream, Showshifter even ATI's guide+ right out of the water. It's user interface is nothing short of breathtaking, it's real slick.

It just makes sence to me to move my "digital library" (music, videos, pictures, movies) to my entertainment center!

Re:Runs on some sort of Windows XP?

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like you are a perfect customer for this media center computer. Go for it. Plunk down your money and be happy.

There are ubergeeks who will never buy it for numerous reasons.

There are geeks who won't buy it because it isn't powerful enough, etc.

There are gadget freaks, some of whom may buy it just to have the new gadget on the block.

There is the average Joe or Jane Computer user for whom it does not integrate with what they want to do or justify the price given that they have a perfectly good computer now.

Then there is the average person who is less than computer literate. This new device is an attempt to lure them into buying a computer by dressing it up as a multimedia device.

Considering that the average person has trouble setting the clock on their VCR, will this fly? I think not.

RB

Re:Runs on some sort of Windows XP?

[Anonymous Coward]

Kick TiVo's ass, my ass!

TiVo is way better than this abortion at doing what TiVo does best: TV. Just because TiVo isn't a multifunction monstrosity, does not make TiVo inferior. TiVo does one thing and does it very well.

This expensive piece of garbage does many things, but not as well. If I want a PC, I want a PC, not a PC masquerading as a "multimedia center".

This thing is doomed

[Gerry Gleason]

Who thinks $1400 is a price point that will move more than a small number of consumers in the top bracket? For people who want something like this, it has to be seriously multi-function and well integrated with other audio and visual components. Of course, there isn't much opportunity to do this because of a lack of widely supported standards to integrate components into a system.

This type of system could work if it was an upscale gamebox that was somewhat open in terms of adding third party hardware. What could be done now with a PS/2 that had all the right options (disk, net, TV type remote, PCI slot or two for add ons, maybe fire-wire or USB). The apps aren't really there to make this excellent yet, so make something that the fringe Linux cases will make usable. Sony is at least moving this way a little with Linux support, why not take it to the next step?

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[Dark Paladin]

I'm sorry to disagee, but I think Tivi is becoming a part of the public consciosness. When I hear a local radio dj ralking about how he used his tivo to record a show he wanted to check out, a huge chunk of the local population just went to tivo.com.

Tivo has mindshare, is simple, cheaper, and does one thing very well. I actually predict tivo will gain more mind and market share.

I have to wonder about the TV Tuner though...

[Agent Green]

It's quite possible that the huge expense in this system could be the TV tuner. According to the little blurb on the Microsoft site (sorry, forgot the URL), it will take signal input from an antenna, cable, or satellite. Doing this is going to require some pretty badass hardware to pull off.

Granted there are a couple nice multifunction video cards out there, but IIRC they're all NTSC compliant only. The digital cards are the ones that require a couple extra hundred dollars to purchase. Granted, it might be worth it if this thing can record any of the digital streams directly to the HD much like the DirecTivo can. An HDTV digital receiver and 5.1 optical output would be pretty nice too.

If it can do all these things and more, then I might be tempted to jump...and also build that multi-terabyte array for my DVD .iso files. :)

Personally, I'd rather build my own box and save a boatload of cash that way. :)

Re:I have to wonder about the TV Tuner though...

[Anonymous Coward]

When we started testing these systems at MS we used emuzed and haupaugge tv tuner cards. It'll run you about 299 to get the haupaugge that supports HD.

Re:I have to wonder about the TV Tuner though...

[Anonymous Coward]

The current version only supports NTSC. Originally, the product supported HDTV, but the eHome team realized that HDTV market was still pretty small, so they went NTSC.

Re:I have to wonder about the TV Tuner though...

[erl]

I'm using a Matrox G400TV. It handles both NTSC and PAL.
However, I think it's been discontinued unfortunately, with no TV tuner replacement card from Matrox.

HEY *YOU* ASSHOLE

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, sure.
Palladium can be disabled quite easily.
Now wonder how long it will take until you *definitely* won't dare to disable it *any more* !?
(I'd really like to watch your face once you realize that at some time 99% of all networked offers have a "DRM enabled" prerequirement...)
I suggest *YOU* get some DRM education.
And now please leave us alone, you're obviously not very educated (to put it mildly) about the very real threats of DRM.

Re:HEY *YOU* ASSHOLE

[cscx]

Now wonder how long it will take until you *definitely* won't dare to disable it *any more* !?

Is this why everyone's VCR still blinks 12:00? Well, if you ask me, a secure DRM system is GOOD for these people; should you not have the education is takes to operate a secure computing system, then you sure as hell shouldn't. Let some(thing) else take care of the security for you.

I don't think going into CMOS is that daunting, moron. I do what I want; if I want DRM, I'll use a Palladium MS OS; if not, I'll use a Free OS. To each his own. Obviously this place isn't about independent thinking -- it's one way or the highway.

The more things change

[Joe U]

The more they stay the same.

Commodore annouced something very similar years ago.

They went out of business shortly after. I don't think anyone ever understood why they were supposed to buy the computer for your tv, it wasn't a Commodore 64 or Amiga, it wasn't a game console and it wasn't a VCR. It was something in-between all of that.

Who knows, maybe music will be the feature that saves this one.

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you, stupid? TiVo may be a PC under the hood, but it does not work like a PC from the consumer's point of view. And that makes all the difference.

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[Anonymous Coward]

TiVo =/= VCR. Just because the ignorant masses think it is so, does not make it so.

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[Anonymous Coward]

If I'm stupid, I'm not as stupid as you. Computers have GUI on monitor and keyboard. TiVo has a GUI on the TV and the remote control. Menus, settings, files, etc, etc. What's so hard to understand, moron?

You're missing the target audience

[Anonymous Coward]

This "PC" was demonstrated at my campus a few weeks ago. One of their large target audiences is college students who need 1 device to do everything, and it's not as space wasting as a seperate PC, TV, DVD player, etc. Think dorms. Unfortunately they missed the July-August buying window.

Re:its drm crippled and may not be able to run lin

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes there is too such as word as "boxen"; it is a perfectly cromulent word.

I suggest you embiggen yourself and stop these petty, uninformed posts to Slashdot.

Tech-Savvy People?

[Grendel Drago]

If it is, they're a pack of fools. Any real tech-savvy person would laugh and point at HP for trying to sell them a crippled PC for twice what a normal one would cost.

I suspect that they're aiming for early-adopter types---those who don't care about what the technology is or does, but just want it because it's shiny and expensive. I suspect, especially with the economy tanking, that this is a much smaller market than HP thinks it is.

--grendel drago

Re:Tech-Savvy People?

[|Cozmo|]

How is it "crippled"? It is basically the same thing as xp pro with a nice frontend for being controlled with a remote. They took the DRM stuff out, and the system can still be used to do whatever a normal windows system can. I agree with you about the market though. It seems that their target market can't afford these things, so I imagine it won't do too well. I think they should've gone for HDTV and tried to capture the home theater market instead. Those are the people with money to blow, not college students.

Patents are my guess

[j_dot_bomb]

My guess is that tivo says that tech is patent pending or something. Another reason to get annoyed with patents.

Anybody remember the Macintosh TV

[Mean_Nishka]

As seen here, Apple once experimenting with a 'media PC' which did not meet with much success.. When will these corporate types realize that people don't want to watch TV on their computers? I'd much rather sit in front of my 36" Panasonic HDTV :)

Holy shit...

[asteinberg]

storing and displaying pictures and music files

Holy shit, a computer that can store and display pictures and music?! Unbelievable...where do I get one?

XP Media Center may become a package in v2

[Anonymous Coward]

From reading posts in microsoft.public.windows.mediacenter, MS might have plans for an add-on package for Media Center 2.0, but stuck with an OEM-only solution this time around to get it out the door.

Here are a couple of interesting posts:

Re: Why not just buy a TV card?

First, Windows Media Center makes it significantly easier to do the normal
TV card functions and puts all multimedia functions in one easy to use
interface. Second, I am going to assume you have not done much work with
PVR PCI cards which do MPEG-2 Hardware encoding. I for one have spend
countless hours getting my TV cards to work properly with all the
functionality. Media Center gave me 95% of this functionality out of the
box (and now that they are allowing burning of the programs to DVD, it will
give me 99%). I spent numbers of hours with a software based PVR solution
also and it couldn't give me results nearly what I wanted, so I abandoned
that (including the AIW card).

So if you want to mess with all the settings and configuration and get a TV
card for you computer, go right ahead, no one is stopping you. In fact if
you want control over every little detail, I highly recommend getting all
your own hardware. If you want a solution that just works right out of the
box, as most people do, then Media Center is product you want.

--
James Edelen
Microsoft MVP - SharePoint Portal Server
Microsoft MVP - Windows XP Media Center
Microsoft Associate Expert

Re: So can you just buy the WinXP Media Center OS?

...in steps

Right now, and as the first step, WinXP MCE OS needs be bundled with
specific hardware - among other things, this ensures a working system (
software works with hardware 100% ). Many believe that as the as "the bar"
for the "average" system is raised enough to mirror a WinXP MCE PC (
preproduction unit included: 2.67-GHz Pentium 4 CPU, 512MB of RAM, a
high-speed graphics card with 64MB of DDR SDRAM, a TV-tuner card, a V.92
modem, Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 high-end surround-sound speakers, a 120GB hard
drive, a DVD+RW/+R/CD-RW drive, a six-in-one media reader (for Memory Stick
and other flash media), two dozen ports--ethernet, USB 2.0, FireWire,
coaxial (for TV), S-Video, and more ) this will change...

Some misunderstandings

[Anonymous Coward]

Here I am reading the /. responses. Most people can't seem to figure out the difference between the Windows XP Media Center Edition and a TiVo or a PC with an ATI TV Tuner card in it.

Well, the WXPMCE machine IS a computer with a TV Tuner card in it. Microsoft will ONLY sell you the OS if you are an OEM and ship the OS on a NEW computer with the minimum requirements for it (i.e. one of a few TV tuners capable of detecting programming information from Cable/Sattelite, etc).

However, this is really an attempt to put a box-that-does-it-all (TM) in your living room or college desk. It plays back and record to DVD, CD, TV, and Computer A/V files. The cool thing is the UI for doing this. Look at http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/freestyle_pre view.asp It really does look like a TiVo style UI, but I've seen a demo, and MS did a significantly better job at makinga UI than TiVo did. It also lets you browse or show your photo albums. I've heard that you can also set your photo albums to music and do PPT-style transitions. It has a remote control and menu driven interface for doing all of this.

The graphics card exports to TV signals and VGA, so you don't need a TV in your dorm room, and don't need a computer monitor in your living room. It is also a fully operational Windows XP Professional computer, and it is a pretty darn good one at that (for $1,400 it should be a pretty good game machine).

All this having been said, I personally am waiting for next year, because I have a 500MHz P3 which can TV tune, and does all of that except for the TiVo like recording and DVD-R, but it is connected to my TV through a wall so I can watch the DivX CDs. I have PPT XP so I can make the nifty slide shows of photos really easily, and I also have Windows XP, so I can simply run its slide show mode with WinAmp playing in the background.

Personally, I feel that this solution is very nice (the system specs and the remote control functionality especially), but I can wait until next year, when I can buy the same PC for 1/2 the price. Or a year later, when I can buy it for 1/4. Unfortunately for the PC market, so can most everyone else. If you ever want to feel really depressed about how cheap PC components are now, go to www.pricewatch.com

I'm wondering where companies like HPQ and MS will go next. This device is sure to cut into the bottom line of the TiVo. Here's the imagined sales pitch: "Need a new computer? Buy this desktop computer once, and you don't need a TiVo, a VCR, a Stereo, or a slide projector. Comes with a universal MS Remote. You don't need to pay for a TiVo subscription service to record your favorite TV shows, and if you network your computers, then you can stream TV shows via ethernet or broadband! How much would you be willing to pay for all of this? $5,000? $3,000? $1,500? No. It's only $1,400! Call now, and we'll even throw in a quick-cam! That's a $100 value for FREE! Get your credit cards ready, 'cause theese things are hot!"

a shame

[Insurgent2]

HP already had their own platform that they could have developed into a full-fledged Media Center that was based on Linux. HP DE100C

with open source published here. I think the merger has had a negative impact on HP's attitude towards open source.

timeshifting plus plasma (rant re: TV)

[timothy]

I have (well, have had) two big prejudices against television, both of which the past few years have worn away at.

1) Time-stealing. I hate the idea that a television show should dominate one's schedule, replacing other activities at all costs, and for this reason held my own one-man TV boycott for a long time, trying to avoid it. (Worse, when someone's whole life is written around the television schedule, day by day and timeslot by timeslot.) Besides the general obnoxious time-slavery, there's the other problem that most of what's on TV is awful anyhow :) Besides bad programs, there are the just-as-bad advertisements. I don't mind seeing some ads, but until I'm in the pickup truck buying mode (one in the family is really enough), I *don't want to see Silverado ads!* I don't need to see tampon ads, ads for Preparation H, ads for vaguely hinted-at medicines about which I am implored to ask my doctor -- ARRRGHH!

TiVo and other PVRs do a lot of answer this argument. (And tapes suck, as in my #2 ;)) If I can watch The Simpsons (hey, no accounting for taste) at the time of my own choosing, and pause as desired, and decide which of the comercials I feel like experiencing, then OK.

2) Bulk. A TV is an annoying thing to carry around, at least for my particular part of the Venn diagram. If you can afford a GIGANTIC screen, perhaps you can also afford to be carried around in a sedan chair by beautiful servants, and have your television moved in (and moved at will later, if you want) by a set of insaller guys, like the characters in the video for the Dire Straights song "Money for Nothing." I can afford a smaller screen than that, and have ended up buying a couple televisions in the course of my life, and inevitably moving them around. I sold my last one (a small but pleasant Sony) and do not regret the transaction at all -- since then, the only TV I've *owned* is a tiny (handheld) LCD one.

Besides the moving-around part, TV bulk is also a problem in that conventional (CRT) TVs take up a lot of space in a room, and often end up being made a sort of shrine, which bugs me. TV is one possible input in a home (or office or wherever) but I always cringe to see rooms / houses which seem to be devoted to it as a household god. Better to have none than to have one which determines the placement of every other piece od furniture.

I had a VCR once, too, and though it was OK, *but* -- I rarely used it, even more rarely programmed it to record anything, and it broke on probably day 366 with a year's warranty. Oh well. Have never bought another, and am happy not to have one. Tapes are like weights on one's ankles. They break, they get lost, they get recorded and then not labeled ...

[I have had the *use* of some other TVs since I sold mine 3 years ago, but none are permanantly attached.]

So: TiVo (and this thingamajiggie from HP, and Replay TV, etc.) kill my biggest complaints (time restrictions, inapprpopriate and annoying advertisements), and the advent of LCD screens with TV tuners (including computers with tuner cards attached to LCDs) and plasma TVs are doing a good job of killing the others.

In fact, I saw recent-model plasma TV (a 42" Panasonic) for the first time a few weeks ago. [I had seen some others at trade shows, but they were basically *monitors* rather than TVs, and I did not inspect them as closely; a few years ago I saw some at Frys in Palo Alto, and they were OK but nowhere near as impressive.] Amazing colors, bright, sharp picture -- much better, frankly, than I had expected.

One nice thing about them is that though they need *careful* handling, it looks not outrageous for one person to lift up to the 42" size at least. (Someone correct me if that's wrong -- this is conjecture on my part.).

Just as important, once installed, they can be put out of sight, or at least reduced to "inconspicuous" when not being used. Not true of a 42" conventional television. With a plasma screen, I can see hanging a velvet curtain (or more likely a protective louvre) in front of the screen *unless* actively watching it.

(Even if the MS-centric way of doing things is bound to be annoying, I am glad that people are starting to accept computer-things as being a legitimate adjunct to their television-things.)

Soon, a large hard drive filled with arguably good content, connected to a reasonably large flat display (whether Plasma, or LED, or OLED, or whatever) will be a fairly normal thing. I will not weep for the death of "regular" television :)

timothy

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Two AC's calling each other morons. What a waste of bandwidth.

(Three now!)

The feature Tivo really needs.

[Zeinfeld]

What I would pay $1,400 for is the feature lacking from my DishTV PVR, the damn thing won't fast forward when in live mode.

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[Anonymous Coward]

HP may have good marketing people...but who is left after the merger bloodletting?? I've seen whole departments axed... What's the innovative marketing spin on this product? "Our computer will do _this_ too?" Weak...

From what I've seen, the marketing folks have been working overtime trying to explain to internal people how great the merger is, why the increased layoffs are good, why HP India is hiring (in the midst of the layoffs), how we are "meeting every single integration milestone described a year ago" yet most people still don't know who their managers are or if their job will be "value captured" (that's the feel good HP internal term for getting axed). It's a total mess, and this new multimedia box is nothing but an attempt to distract y'all from the real issues that are destroying HP.

HP, on the other hand, has some great marketing people that can actually educate and market their products.

HP + Microsoft = Bad DRM soup

[Cheese Cracker]

Microsoft's ethics or actually lack of ethics does make you wonder what this machine actually
does... I don't want this type of entertainment center if they can look at how I use it, what I'm
listening to, what I'm watching etc... And I want to be able to do whatever I want to do with my
equipment, and I'm sure Bill has made sure to make that harder. The more MS gets their DRM
into the core of the hardware, the harder it will become to use it. So, the solution is... don't buy
anything with DRM built into it. :)

It came out before I was born, buddy

[SlimFastForYou]

I hope you were kidding, because the Apple II sure seems to fit that description.

Re:It came out before I was born, buddy

[buck_wild]

Having had one (Apple IIe) It really doesn't. The keyboard was indeed moulded to the case, but the monitor did sit on top of it.

Last thing I need...

[pdaoust]

Is a noisy computer next to my whisper quiet AV equipment...

Really, until they figure out how to make these new gizmos as quiet as virtually all the other AV equipment out there they won't be getting me as a customer. I can't picture myself trying to listen to good music with some PC PS fan whisltling in the background... It just doesn't work.

Simple == allowable

[xixax]

Is he saying that computers are heading down the path of glorified televisions and that in the near future all that you will need to operate your computer is a remote control?

After the RIAA and MPAA are done, you won't need more than a remote control to access the allowable functions on a multimedia box.

Xix.

Re:Sony already has this, but they are more expens

[Anonymous Coward]

No...I think we like sony this week. They make Anime and stuff. Next week is the week to hate them for some evil-corporate-empire-music-legality-thing. In the mean time...be a good consumer and buy more Anime!

of course slate is owned by microsoft...

[zonker]

and they have their own pvr solution (ultimatetv) so if you are i guess you can read what you want into that... =)

Thank you

[Billly Gates]

Mod UP!

You answered my question. I think this new pc is cool and is great for dorms or people who live in studio apartments with limited space.

I just think its important that as consumers we are aware of what these machines can and can not do. I just wanted to warn everyone about drm and what the past slashdot articles have said about this particular product. If its not crippled then I am for it since HP did the right thing by telling Microsoft to shove it.

Don't forget the drivers

[Nicolay77]

With this kind of computer market, hardware companies will start to offer more and more TV tuner and some other media cards.

The problem here are the drivers, microsoft will try to push ms-only drivers, hopefully they will NOT be windrivers, like the ill fated winmodems.

But we almost have 4Ghz machines and hardware companies will start thinking, "why not use these extra horsepower to make some functions in software?".

Hopefully that won't happen.

Computer TV Combo!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally almost what I am looking for. I donot know about you guys, but Im one of the people who believe that if you can combine more than one function on a device, its great. This TV computer as I like to call it is great for the bedroom. That way, I can have one unit whick shall wake me up in the morning to the sound of my favorite CD (I just saved myself $500 by not having to buy the Bose system), which I can see my early morning news while having breakfast in bed, read my e-mail in my PJ's on a lazy afternoon, see those programs on TV/movie on DVD while I am cuddling in bed, or just get really creative and make my own home videos on DVD. I donot need 5 different appliances if I can do the same in one.
As a matter of fact I was planing to build one of these, the only reason I didnot was because of the fan in case of these PC's.
I was looking at an iMAC (the one that has a cute dome, and looks like a lamp!!!). This one doesent have a fan, and thus would be the ideal candidate for such use (for all picky people me inclusive, who whant perfectly quite operation). The only thing I could wish for is a remote with POWER ON, E-MAIL, TV, ... and a SHUTDOWN button. I would gladly buy that one. I know you are thinking gosh this nut is really lazy. Well then you are one of those people who love to see windows booting up and shutting down... and have not much else to do ;-)
About monitors, they are getting pretty cheap. You can buy a decent 15" monitor for just under $300.
Well a final thought. This machine is definitely for the people who want a computer and a tv in the bedroom/dorm with a whole lot of power and not for those who are thinking of replacing their living room tv's.
Just think about it, immagine your bedroom and a bose cd-radio on the desk along with a computer and a tv-DVD on a table on the other side. Is that better or an all in one combo that is actually really powerful???

Re:TiVo doomed? Hah!

[Anonymous Coward]

You are all stupid.

Missed points here /. folks

[Anonymous Coward]

It is apparent that many /. folks scorn such a multimedia pc like box.

A multimedia pc would:
1. lower costs for all of the hardware involved
2. lower the cost of any tvio like box
3. speed more sophistication in the tv,
stereo, surraound sound equipment, etc.
4. lower flat pannel/plasma costs

If this is such a bad idea, then why are so many /. readers using tvio, replay tv, and the open source equivalents?

Oh yea, I forgot: 'This is /. - Microsoft is involved, it must be bad.'

Needs HDTV

[bill_mcgonigle]

PC Makers - here's a million dollars worth of market research: this is a fine strategy for HDTV sets, but NTSC is just too miserable for modern GUI's. This won't be a profitable market until 2006, when everybody is replacing their analog sets.

Lots of companies have tried it over the past 20 years, and none of those products is alive today. Adding WindowsXP to the mix won't help.

New video gear is shipping with DVI connectors - that's the direction you need to go.

Re:its drm crippled and may not be able to run lin

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck is a boxen? Can't you just say boxes?

Noise solution

[buck_wild]

I have my entertainment system wires run to a former linen closet, and hook into my PC from there. I did put two fans (one in, one out)in the cupboard doors to solve any heat issues.

When my house was being built, I prewirewd everything I'd need. Some of my neighbors didn't have the chance, and just pushed the wires through the wall into the next room to solve the noise problem.

I run Win2k, some X-10 (I know, cheap) and some middle-of-the-road hardware.

Re:Anybody remember Microsoft Bob?

[buck_wild]

I can't even find any information on Microsoft's website. Seems like they really want it to go away...

Re:its drm crippled and may not be able to run lin

[PyroMosh]

Okay, I'll feed the troll...

Yes there is.

Last Post!

[alpg]

Long were the days of pain I have spent within its walls, and
long were the nights of aloneness; and who can depart from his
pain and his aloneness without regret?
-- Kahlil Gibran, "The Prophet"

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