Jedi Archives In Dublin Library?

bill_gates_jnr writes "When Attack of the clones came out many Dubliners thought that the Jedi Archives looked similar to a landmark in Dublin, the Long Room in Trinity College Dublin. The library administrator of TCD, Robin Adams has story written a letter to Lucasfilms suggesting the company should acknowledge a debt to the original architect Thomas Burgh. " I was in the Long Room a few years ago - it's a gorgeous room. But while we're acknowledge debts, perhaps Lucas can also acknowledge a more significant debt.

Comments

first post!

[CoffeeJedi]

So... it just looks similiar... but they didn't actually film in the room? Then why does GL need to give them credit?

Re:first post!

[Luminous]

It isn't about giving the college credit, it is about giving the person who designed it credit, and lets face it, it means nothing to Lucas to give credit but would be a nice boost to an already prestigious institution.

Re:first post!

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Then why does GL need to give them credit?"

They don't need to. This wouldn't have come up if a.) SW II wasn't a huge movie and b.) GL didn't have 3 cubic acres of money.

I'm pretty sure the credits in Independence Day didn't include the architect of the White House.

Re:first post!

[UniverseIsADoughnut]

You have to ask the question though... Were the makers of Star Wars II even aware of this room? I wasn't, I also don't remember it from the film. But I can say that if I was going to have some grand library it would have looked like this one. It's what a lot of libraries look like and just the typical image of a grand library. The same goes for many other things. Just because you see a similarity in something doesn't mean there is, or that it copied it from something else. There are only so many original ideas in the world, everything else is a modification of an original idea. We go through life and bit things up from everywhere. If your the writer of something there is no way you could know if something you think of was truely something new to you or draw some some moment in your life. No one can remeber how every idea in their mind got there. The makers of Star wars very well could have just invisioned a library and this is what they got. Then someone around the world makes a connection and thinks they are making a rip off. There are so many things in the world. No one is aware of everything. Two people thinking of the same thing at the same time in the world happens all the time. Look at patent disputs. If enough people watched this film and tried to find similarities they would be able to say the makers ripped off the whole world. This goes for music , writtings, machines everything. There are only so many ways people are going to do things. and the good way have all probly been done. People make what people like so you get similarities, people arn't trying to rip people off or even aware of it. It just happens.

Now if the producers said "yeah we got the idea from the long room" then there probably should be credit givin.

people need to stop thinking everyone is just ripping other people off. It happens, you can't expect everyone to be aware of everything out there. your going to get copies.

Re:first post!

[malducin]

The point is that it happens all the time. Why niotpick on Lucas if a lot or most films do it with all sorts of things. Credits are given to major influences but not minor ones.

Did xXx had credits thankink, Fleming and Danjaq? Will Solaris have a credit thanking the designers in 2001? Did Harry Potter thanked particular architects for inspirations of buildings. Did the Matrix thanked Giger, or the TNG producers for the virtual reality concept? At one point it gets ridiculous. Yes sometimes there are major rip off or homages. But many times they are acknowledged.

There are even worst cases. A few weeks ago there was an interview with Avi Arad, I think 60 Min. 2. Stan Lee is not getting a single penny from the film. Arad didn't see any problem with that and said Lee was OK and taken care off. Then they interviewed Stan Lee and he was very upset but too much of a class act to really say it.

There was also the interesting case of the sculture on The Devils Advocate which was extremely similar to the work or this sculptor. He sued a lot later when the movie was out and won. They had to digitally alter those shots, though it was too late as many DVDs had the original shots, kinda collector items.

Re:first post!

[Rellik66]

Quoth the AC

They don't need to. This wouldn't have come up if a.) SW II wasn't a huge movie and b.) GL didn't have 3 cubic acres of money.

I'm pretty sure the credits in Independence Day didn't include the architect of the White House.

That's a very good point, assumming that public or possibly private building like the White House are made from mock-ups rather than on loacation, does credit need to be given?

Often the movie makers credit the sites that were filmed at, but don't credit loacations created in a studio, or by CG op.

And besides, when was the last time you paid very close attention to the credits anyway?

Re:first post!

[Anonvmous Coward]

"That's a very good point, assumming that public or possibly private building like the White House are made from mock-ups rather than on loacation, does credit need to be given?"

If you want to get technical, some model-makers use the original blueprints when they go into construction of a miniature. Do the architects who originally drew up those blueprints get credit? Heh.

Imagine how long the credits of a movie would be!

Re:first post!

[Anonvmous Coward]

"for a full list see this web address: http://bigbuxmovie.com/credits"

You forgot the studio name:

http://www.lucasfilmfoundedbygeorgelucas.com/sta rw arsepisode2attackoftheclones/credits

Re:first post!

[bockman]

You're right. But if someone that has never seen Star Wars (e.g. someone that doesn't like SF) come out with a novel in which a young fellow from a backwater place challenge an evil empire, saving a princess in the process, I bet Lucas's lawyers will go after him in no time.

Thinking of it, the only thing that saves Linus from a "Cease and Desist" letter by LucasFilm is the lack of a princess to save.

Re:first post!

[perfessor multigeek]

And besides, when was the last time you paid very close attention to the credits anyway?
Silly, silly person. Lots of us. Personally, like probably a third or more of the posters to this thread, I *always* stay to watch the credits. If I'm with friends it's even more self-evident as at least one of us is checking to see what computers were used, where they shot that scene, was a friend on the F/X team. etc.

Geeks. You're on a website for geeks.

Rustin

Re:first post!

[perfessor multigeek]

It wouln't surprise me if credits are shortened down and a web address is added to the end saying:

"for a full list see this web address: http://bigbuxmovie.com/credits
Cool! I'ld go! I was allegedly in the credits of some anime thing recently and didn't have the time to see the movie. I'ld LOVE to have a site like that. I might even pay for membership.
Anybody from iMDb on this thread?
Rustin

ben kenobi

[p_rotator]

The Long Room in Trinity College Dublin. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

Re:ben kenobi

[dildatron]

Dublin? They make Guinness in Dublin!!

(sorry, i just got a guinness keg at my house.

Re:ben kenobi

[Archie Steel]

The joke here being that Alec Guiness played Ben Kenobi in the original Star Wars trilogy...

Re:ben kenobi

[Archie Steel]

Sorry, had too many (Guinnesses, that is...) Hips!

Debt?

[CrackHappy]

Hemos, what other debt are you speaking of? I looked at the article you linked to, but couldn't find anything about Lucas.

Re:Debt?

[TheGreenLantern]

I assume he's referreing to the popularity of Star Wars owing a debt to the great sci-fi that came before it (i.e. Dune the novel), though I would think a comment like this would make more sense if it referred to Kurosawa's "Hidden Fortress".

Re:Debt?

[CrackHappy]

Speculation is the mother of evil.

Hm... or is that invention is the mother of necessity?

Damnit... ever since I became a Jedi Knight, all I can think about it duct tape.

It has a dark side and a light side, and it bind the universe together.

Re:Debt?

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Herbert? How? Lucas has publicly admitted taking ideas from Campbell and Kurosawa (Episode IV owes a lot to The Hidden Fortress), but I don't see any significant resemblance between anything Lucas has written and anything Herbert wrote. Apart from the fact that they're both dealing with space and empires, of course.

The claim that Lucas took ideas from Asimov makes more sense, and that hardly makes sense at all. Then again, there are people who say Niven should sue Bungie, so you can never tell.

Re:Debt?

[Uma Thurman]

Some dude comes out of nowhere on a desert planet to topple the empire.

Re:Debt?

[Twirlip of the Mists]

More likely it was just a sneaky plot to artificially inflate Slashdot's hit count so they can keep charging advertisers who don't know any better to place ads that 90% of Slashdot readers filter out and never see. Quite the scam, actually.

Bastard, indeed.

Re:Debt?

[br0ck]

I posted the following in a recent comment about this: "Actually, Frank Herbert himself was the one that originally complained about Lucas ripping off the story. I've read in various places that he considered a lawsuit. He wrote several pages in a short essay within Eye about this topic where he points out that there are statistically too many similarities for this to be mere coincidence."

Re:Debt?

[Anonymous Coward]

The similarities between Dune and Star Wars are incredible, here are just a few:

1.) In Dune, the hero is names after a biblical person, Paul, while in Star Wars the hero is named after a biblical person too (Luke). Both of which rise from the the desert to topple the evil empire.

2.) In Dune, the chief enemy of the hero turnes out to be the heros grandfather. In SW, the chief enemy of the hero turns out to be the hero's father. (And if you take it even farther, the emperor in Dune is also related to Paul, as Duke Leto and the emperor were cousins).

3.) In Dune, there is a monolopy on space transit and shipping by the Spacing Guild. In SW (EP1-2) there is a monolopy on space transit and shipping by the Trade Federation.

4.) In Dune, you have a warrior group who have supernatural-esque powers (The Bene Gesserit). In SW you have a warrior group who have supernatural powers (The Jedi).

5.) In Dune, the Bene Gesserit have mind control abilities (The Voice). In SW the Jedi have mind control powers (The Jedi Mind trick). Both of which can be negated by a strong mind.

6.) In Dune, the galaxy is made up of an Empire with a demotractic power base (The Lansraad (Spelling?)). In SW you have an Empire with a democratic power base (The Senate).

7.) In Dune, you have both energy weapon based warfare, and melee (swords and knives) combat. Most combat takes place with energy or projectile weaponry, but key battles are fought melee. In SW, you have both energy based combat, and melee combat (swords). Most combat takes place with energy weapons, while key battles are fought melee.

I could go on but it would probably be wasted. There are other fun facts though, like early drafts of the SW script referring to the most precious commodity in the Empire being, *gasp* spice, and the Jedi fighting technigue being known as the Jedi Bendu (while the Bene Gesserit technique is called the Prana Bindu).

To give proper credit some of the above material is from: http://www.jitterbug.com/origins/dune.html

Re:Debt?

[tiedyejeremy]

there's nothing to find about lucas - It's all about how goofy the fans of these two stories get when their favorite is teased!

Re:Debt?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"...though I would think a comment like this would make more sense if it referred to Kurosawa's "Hidden Fortress".

Err why? It's not the overall plot that made SW popular, it was the characters and the visuals. That's why 4, 5, and 6 are so much better than 1, 2, and very probably 3.

SW was able to attract an audience that Dune couldn't. That's not a feat you accomplish with a good plot, sadly. It's a feat you accomplish by being just plain entertaining. That's why movies made in the 80's are considerably better than movies made today.

Re:Debt?

[Cato the Elder]

OK, some of those I'll buy, some of them I won't. "Biblical name for the hero"? "Vision of x while y is dying"? What a load of crap. There is also a huge difference between Vader's relationship to Luke and the Baron's relationship to Paul. For Star Wars, Luke fears he will fall as his father did an becomes interested in redeeming him. For Dune, the relationship is used for irony (the Baron killed by his own granddaughter) and to tie the bloodlines together.

On the other hand, the parallels between the mystical powers in Dune and the mystical powers of the Jedi are much more plausible. In fact, the site misses one: both Jedi and various factions in the world of Dune have the ability to see into the future.

Re:Debt?

[Frobnicator]

I'd say none of them are original.

Choice of a desert planet. That in itself is not too distinguishing. It naturally leads to 'sandcrawlers' (a big machine that crawls on the sand) and trying to get water ('cause its a desert). People in cauls and covered heads makes sense, as that's what many desert nomads are depicted as doing. You may find in the desert that even when a person's face is shadowed, their eyes and mouth may appear lighted because of the interesting reflective properties of sand.

Biblical names, telling the future (seers or prophets), manipulation of objects or creatures (a bit of a stretch, but moving mountains, Daniel in the lions den, and others) are all biblical stories, around LONG before either of these works.

About the only thing remotely original that may have been taken from the other is a character finding out a 'bad guy' is their father, but that, too, is not a historical novelty.

frob.

Re:Debt?

[kalidasa]

...though I would think a comment like this would make more sense if it referred to Kurosawa's "Hidden Fortress"

Lucas has, I believe, acknowledged both debts. Certainly to Hidden Fortress, though he does seem to claim that he borrowed not the "General saves the Princess" theme but rather the characters of R2D2 and C3PO from the two sidekicks in HF. Anyway, he's acknowledged HF's influence on his work. And the influence of Dune on the visuals has been long accepted, even if Lucas has never said anything.

Frankly, I don't see why anyone thinks any of these influences (including the Long Room) needs to be made much over. Do you really think that the Star Wars DVDs should have footnotes like Eliot's Waste Land, pointing the viewer to all of the allusions in the films? Isn't it better to let the viewers discover them for themselves?

Re:Debt?

[kalidasa]

The setting of Tatooine owes a little to Arrakis. That's been acknowledged by critics since the late seventies.

Re:Debt?

[klocwerk]

I believe that the debt was the line "Spice mines of Arrakis" in episode IV.
Also the large worm like skeleton in the background as c3p0 gets out of the escape pod. Or the Sarnak(sp?) pit, could be interpreted as a worm ala Dune.

If I remember correctly, there's a number of other references. I was always surprised that more people hadn't noticed them.

Re:Debt?

[CrackHappy]

*shaking head*

If you have the time and will, you can draw similarities between the Spice Girls movie and Dune.

*gasp* they are both about Spice. woooo....

Re:Debt?

[mcspock]

i can actually see the niven sues bungie case, since halo was exactly what ringworld was described as. but oh well.

for lucas, he shouldn't have to give credit based on similarities

Re:Debt?

[br0ck]

If anyone is still remotely interested, here's Herbert's exact words from _Eye_ where he is discussing the making of the Dune movie: David had trouble with the fact that Star Wars used up so much of Dune. We found sixteen points of identity between my novel and Star Wars. That is not to say this was other than coincidence, even though we figured the odds against coincidence and produced a number larger than the number of stars in the universe.

An ign reviewer (click-thru ad) interprets Herbert's phrase as In other words, anyone in the early 80s making a movie about a psionically-gifted young man on a desert planet overthrowing a corrupt interstellar empire had better come up with a different take, something a little more stylistic, a little more Blade Runner-ish, than Lucas' powerhouse adventure story of intergalactic derring-do.

The list of coincidences linked in my previous post mentioned spice miners and I also noticed in the AOTC a reference to 'spice miners' on a moon of Naboo that could possibly be attempting to assassinate Amedala. It seems to me that it would take a great leap of imagination to come up with the concept of spices that are mined. I guess a more positive viewpoint would be that Lucas is just using the ideas that are out there and is just paying homage to Dune.

Re:Debt?

[Uma Thurman]

That's how they'll get him. Al Capone was brought down by the IRS for tax evasion. The MPAA will take down Osama for ripping off the idea that they ripped off first.

Re:Debt?

[crawling_chaos]

Well by that reasoning, CmdrTaco is a rip-off of George W. Bush:

1. GWB can't spell, neither can Taco.
2. GWB's has a a group of minions to do his bidding, Taco's got the editors.
3. GWB fixed an election, Taco fixed the poll on best band ever.
4. And finally, GWB's wife is a hell of a lot smarter than he is, too.

Re:Debt?

[Osty]

I believe that the debt was the line "Spice mines of Arrakis" in episode IV.

As has already been pointed out, that's "Kessel", not "Arrakis", and it bears no resemblence other than "spice".

Also the large worm like skeleton in the background as c3p0 gets out of the escape pod. Or the Sarnak(sp?) pit, could be interpreted as a worm ala Dune.

Worms generally don't have skeletons (Dune worms or otherwise). However, that skeleton was from a Krayt Dragon, or something like that, definitely not a sand-burrowing, spice- and oxygen-producing, crysknife-factory worm.

Re:Debt?

[grumpygrodyguy]

It's true of course that Star Wars borrows heavily from its predecessors. But like most things there's always 2 sides to the phenomenon of "borrowing" ideas.

Steven Spielberg is considered by many to be one of the greatest directors of all time. Jaws, Close Encounters, Poltergeist...these all won him respect and acclaim, but it was the Indiana Jones series that boosted him to his present status. Raiders was a mercurial moment for him; he even says so in many of his interviews. But what does this have to do with George Lucas? Lucas wrote the Indiana Jones story and gave it to Spielburg.

Nobody remembers that...when they hear Raiders they automatically think Spielburg. The fact is that we owe a great debt to George Lucas for creating some incredibly rich fantasies for us. He wrote the Star Wars series, and the concept of Indiana Jones. The point is, for a few years there Lucas was an absolute genius at fusing together the very best of a story genre...and he deserves a great deal of respect for that.

I'll be the first to agree that the ghost has left him however, and that his best days are long gone. Some people only get 15 minutes, George had at least 5 good years. Not too shabby.

Re:Debt?

[Wavicle]

1.) In Dune, the hero is names after a biblical person, Paul, while in Star Wars the hero is named after a biblical person too (Luke).

That is really reaching... That bible thing has dominated the culture of western civilization for over a thousand years... the names of biblical figures permeates our literature.

6.) In Dune, the galaxy is made up of an Empire with a demotractic power base (The Lansraad (Spelling?)). In SW you have an Empire with a democratic power base (The Senate).

That is a natural extensions of an existing political systems which is found in generous quantities in western civilizations.

7.) In Dune, you have both energy weapon based warfare, and melee (swords and knives) combat. Most combat takes place with energy or projectile weaponry, but key battles are fought melee. In SW, you have both energy based combat, and melee combat (swords). Most combat takes place with energy weapons, while key battles are fought melee.

I thought in dune not a lot of fighting took place with energy weapons because Laser + Shield = Nuke. Fights in star wars ALWAYS involved energy weapons, except those between Jedi/Sith.

Re:Debt?

[gmhowell]

I took a look at the last link. I hope there are better examples than what were shown, particularly given the length of both the movie series and the Dune series. What it really looks like is that both of them were reading from the works of Joseph Campbell.

Re:Debt?

[vsprintf]

Hey, if you're going to throw water on a good conspiracy flame war, you can just log off and go watch television or something. :)

Re:Debt?

[Scooter]

Oh for goodness sake - there are only about 8 plots in the broadest sense anyway - Lucas rips off Dune? why? becasue there's a "saviour" who was prophecied? One who will be more powerful than any before him and will set the world to rights? Come on - Herbert didn't invent that - try Mallory's Mort D'Arthur, "The Return of the King" - LOTR, or Jesus Christ if it comes to it. Honestly - Frank Herbert needs to climb out of his own arse if he seriously thought there are more similarities between SW and Dune than SW and a hole host of other films/books etc etc. I mean yes, veryone gets inspiration from things they;ve read or seen, childhood memeories and so on, but seriously - did anyone else apart from him actually think to themselves "hmm Star Wars - it's a bit like Dune" Only after sucking on some serious Jamaican Woodbines.

Re:Debt?

[Planesdragon]

That's why movies made in the 80's are considerably better than movies made today.

Come again?

Star Wars wasn't made in the 80s--and what made it great was the groundbreaking FX that held up the suspension of disbelief all good fantasys require, even with Lucas's script and plot.

Movies made very recently--most notably IMO, Spider-Man--beneft from even better FX, as well as (in many cases) better stories.

Some of the best movies ever made are being made as we chat on /. Some of the best stories are centuries old, and stories from the 80s may very well be, on average, better--but they're not better moves.

As for Dune... it still strikes me as an agnostic science fiction writer trying to be spiritual, and failing. Star Wars does "mystic warrior" better by not even trying.

I think Dune is one of the works that shaped my beleif about what differentiates fantasy and scifi. In Fantasy, it doesn't matter what your stories aboubt as much as how you tell it. In scifi, it doesn't matter how crappy your writing is, as long as you've got some new ideas.

Re:Debt?

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Lest my opinion on this matter be unclear to those who read the grandparent of this comment, I love the fact that Lucas isn't afraid to borrow-- steal, whatever-- ideas and incorporate them into his own stories. There are only about seven truly original plots anyway, and they were old news when Homer was telling stories about the Trojan War.

As for your statement that the ghost has left him, I have to disagree. Yeah, the two extant Star Wars prequels aren't as good as many people wish they had been. (In all fairness, they never could have lived up to the fanboys' expectations, but that's another argument.) But the underlying story is fantastic stuff. The way the bad guys manipulate the good guys, playing both sides of the fence to achieve their goals, just blows me away.

I don't want to start a big Star Wars thread, but just consider for a second the backstory behind Episodes I and II. Palpatine orchestrated the Naboo conflict for the purpose of overthrowing the chancellor of the Senate, sure, but an even deeper motive was to put the Trade Federation's army of droids into a serious combined-forces battle to demonstrate their inherent fallibility. They were almost defeated by a bunch of disorganized natives, for cryin' out loud. The net result was that Palpatine set the stage for the creation of an army of clones which would, ultimately, become his personal instrument of control over the galaxy.

There are plans within plans going on there that haven't really been called out explicitly in any of the movies thus far. In that way, the entire Star Wars saga kind of reminds me of the Foundation books by Asimov: the actual subject matter of the stories is fairly trivial in scope compared to the machinations going on off-screen. It's a deep, deep story. It's possible that Lucas himself isn't up to the task of telling it in the best possible way, which would be a shame. But you've got to give the man credit where it's due.

Okay, end of digression.

Re:Debt?

[arnex]

The similarities between Dune and Star Wars are incredible

Yeah, but Dune takes place 10,000 years in the future, whereas SW was a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. So George can claim prior art.

Re:Debt?

[EnglishTim]

Because all of those ideas are completely original, aren't they?

Hmm - chosen people living in the desert, waiting to be freed by a chosen one... where have I heard that before?

Oh yeah - Exodus!

Re:Debt?

[stereoroid]

Never mind Dune, what about all the stuff he lifted from Asimov? The robots, of course, but there's also the remarkable simularity between Asimov's "Trantor" (from Foundation) and Lucas' "Coruscant" - both cities that completely cover a planet. There must be more, too.

Re:Debt?

[toriver]

And Arrakis owes a little to Lawrence of Arabia. So what?

Re:Debt?

[kannen]

The truth is that while Star Wars is my first love, and Dune is a close 2nd, comparing the two is ridiculous. Dune is about politics, man's interaction with his environment, power, history, religion as a means of controlling society, etc. Star Wars is about friendship, good vs. evil (on a very idyllic level - evil is so much better represented by the vile Baron Harkonnen in Dune) and blowing stuff up.

Dune has a weight to it that Star Wars has never had - and never pretended to have. Lucas has been up front from the beginning that Star Wars is a spaghetti western in Space. A B-grade space opera. Dune is sci-fi from its very foundations - it concerns itself with much larger questions about society, religion, etc.

Star Wars is for the heart - it is the equivalent of donning your favorite sweatshirt, wrapping yourself in the softest blanket, nestling a mug of hot cocoa between your hands, and throwing Toy Story 2 or Dead Poets Society in the DVD player. Dune is for the head - it is the all-nighter you put in while finishing up your paper on the economic situation in post-Soviet Russia, studying for your final on Computability and Unsolvability, and preparing to defend your thesis on the effects of the Gnostic movement on the structure of the 2nd Century Church and its continued ripples through history. It is heady.

For more reasons that this is stupid:

• Paul is a melancholy. Luke is just a whiner.
• Paul is a noble. Luke is a farm boy.
• Paul thinks. Luke is impulsive.
• In Dune, control is wielded by controlling the Spice - it's economic. In Star Wars, control is wielded by brute force.
• In Dune, the religious faction is clearly female. In Star Wars, it is decidedly male.
• In Dune, the religion is merely a means of controlling society. In Star Wars, the religion is based on the Force which, though it is of a dualistic nature, is of substance with a definitive will and moral outlook.
• In Dune, everybody is a human. (Or was human.) In Star Wars, there are aliens.
• In Dune, the Bene Gesserit use their warrior skills only as a means of protecting themselves. In Star Wars, the Jedi use their warrior skills as a means of keeping peace throughout the galaxy. This idea of a spiritual warrior is also common in our own human history. (Genesis 3:24 - "So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life")
• In Dune, the monopoly on space travel is because only one group, the Spacing Guild, is capable of folding space. In Star Wars, everybody can get the technology for high speed space travel - the "monopoly" is created by piracy/thuggery, not by an actual monopoly on technology.
• In Dune, the Landsraad is not a democracy, but a meeting of the heads of the major noble houses. In Star Wars, the Senate of the Republic is an actual republic.

Re:Debt?

[kalidasa]

So nothing. It's worthwhile for critics to see the debts. That doesn't mean that Lucas is a bad boy for not putting up a huge sign: "Hey, this was influenced by Herbert," any more than Herbert was being a bad boy by not putting in a note "Hey, I read Seven Pillars of Wisdom as a youngster." It's interesting is all.

Re:Debt?

[Twirlip of the Mists]

I've read it. It's pretty lame. Some of the similarities are nothing more than coincidences. I mean, "Villain turns out to be hero's grandfather?" That's nothing more than a footnote, and it's not even revealed in Dune itself. Then there's the great "both heros have Biblical names" thing. Pick a normal anglo-saxon name at random; odds are that name is in the Bible. And, lest we forget, the Jawas were actually inspired by the Fremen. Riiiiight.

Re:Debt?

[grumpygrodyguy]

As for your statement that the ghost has left him, I have to disagree. Yeah, the two extant Star Wars prequels aren't as good as many people wish they had been. (In all fairness, they never could have lived up to the fanboys' expectations, but that's another argument.) But the underlying story is fantastic stuff. The way the bad guys manipulate the good guys, playing both sides of the fence to achieve their goals, just blows me away.

I think we're on the same page here. Lucas wrote those stories during his creative golden years, and I do agree that they are good stories. But everything he's done recently (including digitally modifying the original trilogy) has been banal.

Re:Debt?

[perfessor multigeek]

Lucas wrote the Indiana Jones story and gave it to Spielburg...
Oh no! It just hit me. Self-important suburban weirdo starts out by doing semi "extreme" stuff on social themes that are at their brief height.
Then gets rich with crowd-pleasing pap with great production values.
Does key underacknowledged seminal work for other, more "normal" artists.
Builds his own studio with entire self-contained universe and proceeds to make worse and worse shlock for an ever more disappointed audience.
Studio becomes leading-edge presence as tool-creator due to work of others who are kept obscure as long as possible.
Makes key missteps on race issues and shows how out of touch he has become.
Puts out more product meant to show that he is into the latest trends and, as he goes back to being involved in every aspect of production, accomplishes just the opposite.

OHMYGOD! George Lucas is Prince!

Re:Debt?

[grumpygrodyguy]

Lol, pretty good.

Hidden Fortress

[Lemmy Caution]

I agree with the observation, but to Lucas' credit (grr, I hate crediting Lucas with anything) he has, indeed, stated his debt to Kurosawa many times.

Re:Hidden Fortress

[nomadic]

Well it's the cinema snobs, the people who can't accept Star Wars as a good movie because it's not subtitled.

"Lucas is a plagiarist! He stole the plot to Star Wars from Kurosawa!"

"Kurosawa is a genius! He adapted the plot to Ran from King Lear!"

Re:Hidden Fortress

[nomadic]

My point is Lucas is criticized for doing something all directors do.

And Kurosawa's genius goes way beyond just cinematography; just because the dialogue tends to be spare doesn't mean the plot isn't important.

Re:Hidden Fortress

[hughk]

I agree about the cinematography, but you forget about direction.

Kurosawa's actors tended to act. Lucas has managed to get some very uneven performances out of some top stars, i.e., Liam Neeson (who has otherwise roved himself to be a very good actor).

I see Lucas as a technocrat of film-making. His films have some of the best effects around (not the best, because by definition, the best are invisible). However it easier to direct an effect than to get the right performance out of a person.

Re:Hidden Fortress

[Lemmy Caution]

Star Wars isn't a bad film because the plot was taken from Hidden Fortress, Star Wars is a bad film because the script is horrid and jejune, the dialogue embarassing, the acting wooden, and the cinematography ham-fisted. The overall plot was acceptable and the pacing was good, and the FX were innovative. That's as far as I'll grant it. He was indebted to Kurosawa, but not nearly indebted enough.

Official reply from Lucasfilms

[hndrcks]

"This is not the library you are looking for. Move along."

Re:Official reply from Lucasfilms

[Kaz Riprock]

This is not the library I am looking for. I will move along.

Disturbance in the force

[Anonymous Coward]

I've felt a great disturbance in the force...

Like a million hits on a web server that cried out in pain and was suddenly silenced.

What about...

[Shadow2097]

...the debt he owes to all of us who sat through his 'romance' scenes in AotC?

Trinity Library

[nightsweat]

We travelled to Dublin last month and I saw the place I want to live, die, and be buried in and it is the Long Room of the Trinity College Library.

For bibliophiles, this room is right up there with the old reading room at the British Museum or the Library of Congress' reading room.

Re:Trinity Library

[JonKatzIsAnIdiot]

Bibliophiles??

Man, I was born too early. When I was growing up, I was just a bookworm.

pictures

[cpfeifer]

A few more photos that aren't slashdotted. [yet]

Talk about the quitessential library. I bet it's the most photographed library in Ireland.

Dune

[Akoman]

I'll have to chime in on the Dune 'credit' issue. Really I would rather not have such a banal work associated with anything related to Dune.

Although reading the Dune thread that is linked, I noted that the slashdot crowd must have been smoking something damned fine when they were watching the mini-series/reading the book. It's really too bad I can't comment on it...

Previous article

[tiltowait]

From March 13, 2002. Has some (currently) not /.ed pics too.

Lucas can also acknowledge a more significant deb

[denisbergeron]

to the Super Mario who have to find his way throw a dangerfield and save the princess...
This is the same story Lucas use in Episode IV.

More links...

[H0NGK0NGPH00EY]

Another story (three or four links deep from the above links) here, and the Google cache here.

Re:j0 m0mma

[grub]

good job slashdotting the picture of the Long Room! Ireland's getting SLAMMED !!

Now that Ireland has no more net access, perhaps they could do something different, such as go for drinks or have a large fight at a soccer game.

Nothing new there

[Pig Hogger]

After all, the AT&T logo looks like the DeathStar...

Re:Nothing new there

[gmhowell]

After all, the AT&T logo looks like the DeathStar...

Nothing new in this comment. I believe Berkely Breathed made it about 20 years ago.

Also demanding credit...

[Quaoar]

The descendants of Edison because of similarities between the saber and the common light bulb, the Ford corporation for Lucas' use of the flying car, and Ziggy Marley for George's obvious portrayal of his dad Bob.

On the other hand

[jki]

I believe everything I do, say, write or output in any other form is a combination what I have noticed around me before. So, should I, in the end of this comment post the list of everything that has given me input and therefore affected the content of this comment, including the numerous typing errors :) Some individuals might be able to output a higher percentage of unique content - but atleast in my case 99.999% is combinations of previous observations. To begin with, I would like to give credit to my father, mother and the midwife who helped me get outa there. Or maybe, the credits list should start earlier, maybe I should give credit to the authors of the music pieces which I heard while in the womb. I don't intend to troll, but I would like to argue that about nothing is unique.

Re:On the other hand

[Twirlip of the Mists]

I believe everything I do, say, write or output in any other form is a combination what I have noticed around me before.

You stole that idea from me, you bastard!

significant similarities.

[tiedyejeremy]

The most significant similarity between dune and star wars:

the hardcore fans are all geeks!

Hardly unique

[maggard]

Gee, a barrel-vaulted room in a library littered with busts, I can only think of, oh, a half dozen or so of those off the top of my head. Without getting the DVD or seeing the Imax version playing downtown its hard to compare them but from my recollection there doesn't seem to be anything unique about the Dublin room or the Coruscant one.

Furthermore, what kind of credit is expected? Few sets, digital or physical, are created ab novo. Need there be an attribution for every filmed space that was inspired by another? Should this be limited to notable public buildings or to parks too? Should I hound the film major who set a scene in what looks remarkably like my old apartment's living room in which he once got drunk?

Did Lucas Film "rip off" that library? Who knows. Certainly enough other library rooms look like it, need they all get plaques? Indeed I used to live down the street from a former fire station in Boston that was notable for having its hose-drying tower built like a Venetian campanile. When that was built it started a trend of lots of other fire stations being built soon thereafter looking similar - should all of them put up plaques attributing their inspiration?

Extending "Trade Dress" to spaces - Feh.

Re:Hardly unique

[Kaz Riprock]

Interestingly, the library scene is not in the remastered IMAX version. Neither is the scenic lunch at the waterfall with Padme and Anakin.

Looks like a publicity stunt to me...

[dbrower]

The alcove system of libraries was -very- common historically; it's hard to say the the dublin one was more of a particular model than any other pre-Carnegie institution. The one in Harry Potter is in the same line too.

-dB

The Farce...

[Bob Vila's Hammer]

*waves hand thru air*

We did not clone the Dublin Libraries for the movie, and no we do not have overdue late charges on "Scottish Clans and Tartans".

other architecture, too.

[psiflare]

quoting from the "begind the scenes" section of the star wars databank on the jedi archives:

The stately architecture and vaulted ceilings of the Jedi Archives Room were inspired by a variety of real-world libraries, including the Vatican and those found in old English estates. A bare minimum of the set was constructed -- only Kenobi's immediate work area and several busts were constructed. The majority of the scenery -- the rows and rows of holobooks and high ceilings -- were realized as miniatures.

so if any inspiration came from dublin, it wasn't in full...

Forget that

[Dixie_Flatline]

Both of them stole from Mimas, one of Saturn's moons!

Image.

Re:Forget that

[Dr Caleb]

That's not a moon...

Re:Forget that

[freeweed]

What's cool is, Mimas hadn't ever been seen at the time Star Wars was filmed (well, other than as a tiny dot).

Legend has it that as the Voyager pictures of Mimas came into JPL, the staff commented to the effect of "holy shit, we've discovered the Death Star!"

Re:Forget that

[quantum bit]

Oh, sorry, let me hike these up...

Re: Lucas can also acknowledge a more significant

[fenix down]

Throw a Dangerfield to save the princess? No respect at all. No respect I tell ya.

Is it a problem when...

[Frobnicator]

... creative people turn to existing sources? We have seen so many articles lately of when creativity is based on other creative sources and in some of them, one group sues over it. I'm getting pretty tired of it.

Yes, if I duplicate your stuff almost exactly and hurt your business, then copyright should kick in. However:

• Set designers need to build sets based on existing architecture.
• Cartoonists should be able to draw an eyeball even if they saw other green eyeballs in the 60's. [back on that discussion, Blizzard could say both groups stole it from their Warcraft 2 'Eye of Kilrog']
• Musicians should be able to use any set of notes, not worrying that a particular set of 4 notes will get them in copyright issues.
• Any other creative art (programming, artistry, city planning, construction, &c.) requires the use of elements that are used elsewhere, or that may have been discovered by someone else for the same purpose.

Or in summary: All great works are based upon the works that came before, and while credit is always appropriate, unless there is some actual harm done in the use, there should never be talks of lawsuits or licensing or copyright violations.

Frob.

Re:Is it a problem when...

[Frobnicator]

I'd go much farther, and say that there have been few good, original movies since two decades before that.

(I had this discussion ages ago, all the movies that everyone said were great had were derived from books).

Feel the Force, Mofo!

[Greedo]

Seems the Long Room webpage is slashdotted already. There isn't much to see there anyway, as Google shows.

That'll teach you for messing with GL.

Methinks some librarian is looking for increased banner revenue...

Can I get a "who cares?"

[Uttles]

Jigga what?

Seriously, who gives a flying rat's ass? So the library looks like a library somewhere else. Gee, I bet that never happened before. Maybe I'm just not articulate enough, but I have been in many libraries with many strikingly similar layouts. It could have something to do with the way books are organized in principle, who knows... and again, who cares?

Similarity?

[jansro]

I don't think there is much of a similarity except that both versions feature a great hall.
The real one is wooden, old fashioned and has a beautifully barrel-vaulted ceiling. The fictional one contains strangly glowing book-like cubes, which might be data-banks. And even then it doesn't contain "all the knowledge accumulated by a ancient order" since you can (and have to) ask the secretary if the obviously not-so-mighty database fails to come up with an answer to your request. :)

There shouldn't be too much fuss about credits. The fictional version is no where near as impressive as stumbling into the fantastic Long Room after having just glimpsed the famous Book of Kells.

Jan

Let me get this straight...

[1WingedAngel]

An article, about a college that wants George Lucas to credit an architect, whose work has been changed and remodeled several times, for inspiration creating a scene in a movie that half the people who saw it can hardly remember.

And the article is brought to us by : bill_gates_jnr .

I can predict next weeks article: State of Utah demands Lucas credit God for use of "desert motif" in Tatooine scenes of Star Wars.

No lawsuit

[Luminous]

There is no lawsuit regarding this issue, the article merely said it was considered, but most likely they were presented with the fact that there are several libraries that look like this.

Re:No lawsuit

[kalidasa]

Doesn't matter. IANAL, but I suspect that you can copy a space all you want to; you just can't use the actually physical location without the owner's permission

The force...

[Tmack]

May be with the Jedi, but even they cannot withstand the /. effect.

TM

Ewoks in Central America

[DataPath]

Ep 6 was filmed in the jungles of Guatemala - when the government found it out, they were quite upset, and tried to get them to credit the location (the jungle forests are quite beautiful, too), so now they have ironclad restrictions on filming in Guatemala.

Trying....

[GeneralEmergency]

...desparately to care about this, even after reading the thread.

...Still trying.

...Almost there...

...Damn, almost.

...Crap. I give up.

Go ahead, mod me down. That alone will be far more interesting than this wee SlashBit.

is anything really original?

[xkorpyn]

is he going to have to give credit to the saharan desert also? Most ideas are regurgitated ideas of an earlier time.

what about plaza de espana?

[Ducon Lajoie]

I saw Episode 2 for the first time last week, on Imax, so I can't comment on the library since that scene was edited out. (ok, second viewing, but the first one was on a crappy VCD on a crappy TV with very crappy sound in a otherwise very nice place in rural China).

Anyways, in one scene (on Naboo?), there is a building that is very clearly inspired from the Plaza de Espana, in Sevilla, Spain.

It would be nice to include credit for the inspirations, if only to acknowledge that human creativity can positively benefit from past creations. Although it is definately not a legal requirement.

Have you been smoking weed or something?

[Hektor_Troy]

It's not the overall plot that made SW popular, it was the characters and the visuals. That's why 4, 5, and 6 are so much better than 1, 2, and very probably 3.

IV, V and VI are NOT nearly as good from a visual point of view as I, II and very likely III are. Not even close.

The best way to describe them is to describe them like the bible.

I, II and III are like the old testament; pretty stunning visual effects, but rather lame story.

IV, V and VI are like the new testament; pretty stunning story, but rather lame visual effects.

Re:Have you been smoking weed or something?

[harlows_monkeys]

IV, V, and VI are like the Mac, and I, II, and likely III are like the Amiga. The Mac interface was better than the Amiga interface from a visual point of view, because the Amiga people were so happy and in love with their fancy colors that they went way overboard. Apple, when it got color, used it tastefully and only when appropriate, and so looked much better.

In I, II, and likely III, the effects and the components that make up individual scenes are way better than anything in IV, V, and VI, but the overall visual effect in IV, V, and VI is better.

Re:Have you been smoking weed or something?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"IV, V and VI are NOT nearly as good from a visual point of view as I, II and very likely III are. Not even close."

Whoah I strongly disagree. With 4, 5, and 6, you knew what was going on. You knew who the good guys were and who the bad guys were. You knew who to feel sorrow for when the fell.

4, 5, and 6 may have had primitive effects, but the story telling was much better. In Episode II, people had no idea who the good guys were and who the bad guys were. It was clearer in Episode I, but they failed to make the audience emote. Nobody cared about the Gungans. Nobody cared about the Naboo pilots. Nobody was made to feel like they should care who wins.

The effects in the recent movies may be ahead technologically, but the lack of good storytelling with those effects ruined the movie's ability to make good use of those shots. Sorry, the VFX was better in the 4, 5, and 6 simply because the audience reacted to them.

Re:Have you been smoking weed or something?

[Gulthek]

4, 5, and 6 may have had primitive effects, but the story telling was much better.

The effects in the recent movies may be ahead technologically, but the lack of good storytelling with those effects ruined the movie's ability to make good use of those shots.

Check again, that was what the person you are disagreeing with said.

Sorry, the VFX was better in the 4, 5, and 6 simply because the audience reacted to them.

Um...what? Is their a correlational relationship between the technical wizardry of special effects and the art of storytelling? A movie with a bad story (The Haunting, The Fifth Element, Final Fantasy) can still have incredibly great special effects. They aren't "Storytelling Effects", they are "Visual Effects."

Re:Have you been smoking weed or something?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Um...what? Is their a correlational relationship between the technical wizardry of special effects and the art of storytelling?...They aren't "Storytelling Effects", they are "Visual Effects."

Lol! A few animation friends of mine had quite a laugh at that comment.

Consider this: How successful would Titanic have been if it had only half it's budget? It's a rethorical question. That means think about what I'm saying instead of trying to tell me the movie'd still work. It wouldn't.

Re:Have you been smoking weed or something?

[Gulthek]

Of course it wouldn't. That's an example of the "not having a story" and "depending on special effects" type of movie.

"Lost In Space" horrible movie, great special effects. I still don't see how a movie needs an emotional connection to make the special effects worthwhile.

I'd really like to meet these animation friends. ;-)

Re:Have you been smoking weed or something?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"I still don't see how a movie needs an emotional connection to make the special effects worthwhile."

You don't? Well okay, I'll give you an example then: Star Trek II. The scene in the end where the Enterprise comes up from behind the Reliant, blasts it with a couple of torpedoes, and blows off a nacelle. The scenes by themselves are just pretty twinkly explody things. Yay big deal. With the surrounding story, though, you have the Enterprise finally getting it's victory shot.

Another example: Star Wars ep4. Take just the space scenes where the Millineum Falcon picks off Darth Vader's wingman, and Luke Bull's eyes the ventilation shaft, and you've got... well a very bland scene. Watch it again with the surrounding story, and you've got the surprising return of Han Solo, and a satisfying victory for the little guy.

If that doesn't explain it, then I dunno what to tell you. Animation is about story telling. It's not about eye candy. Special FX (actually, technically it's 'Visual Effects', Special FX are effects that are filmed on camera like a squib going off or something) is really just a form of animation.

Re:Have you been smoking weed or something?

[Gulthek]

I guess we just disagree. To me, looking at either of those scenes -- detached from the movie -- would still be pretty cool.

The same goes for scenes like any of the space scenes in Starship Troopers, the view of the space ship at the beginning of Pitch Black, watching the T-1000 walk through the jail bars in Terminator 2, et cetera.

If what you say is true, why are graphic demos and concept art from upcoming movies (that one may or may not know any of the story to) so popular?

My friends and I will choose to watch some movies, *solely* on the basis that there will be cool special effects.

Memento or Frailty are good examples of how a movie doesn't need technical wizardry to tell a great story. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace is a great example of how the plot of the movie can be terrible, but the movie still be watchable due to the spectacular nature of its special effects.

True, things are best when the special effects blend together with the story (The Matrix, The Lord of the Rings) but it isn't required for great special effects.

Are you telling me that you couldn't just look at any scene from Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, separated from what little characterization and plot there is, and enjoy it for being kick-ass CGI?

Re:Have you been smoking weed or something?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Are you telling me that you couldn't just look at any scene from Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, separated from what little characterization and plot there is, and enjoy it for being kick-ass CGI?"

Sure I can. But that's because that's the type of work I do. I have an insider appreciation of what they did for that movie.

I think I understand where you're coming from now. We're looking at it from different angles. You like special fx, you have friends that like fx, and that's what you look for in a movie. I'm very much the same way. However, I'm not sure that people with those types of interests are a very high percentage of ticket sales for a movie like Star Wars or even Titanic.

Who's to say? I dunno.

Re:Have you been smoking weed or something?

[Gulthek]

However, I'm not sure that people with those types of interests are a very high percentage of ticket sales for a movie like Star Wars or even Titanic.

That I readily agree with.

Creativity and innovation always build on the past

[IvyMike]

Lawrence Lessig, in his keynote presentation made on July 24, 2002 at oscon, repeatedly made the four point argument:

• Creativity and innovation always builds on the past.
• The past always tries to control the creativity that builds upon it.
• Free societies enable the future by limiting this power of the past.
• Ours is less and less a free society.

He made this argument while arguing against lengthy copyright terms, but I think the first point applies here: any creative work, such as Star Wars, builds upon the library of existing human work. It's nearly pointless to try to credit every single contributor to that existing compendium of knowledge. I guess it's a judgement call of when you should give credit, but this one feels ok to leave out, to me. (And the actual library will be a trivia factoid for years to come, this way.)

The reason I personally disliked that scene in Episode 2 is that it took place in a physical library at all, instead of being a four second web search. Kenobi doesn't Yahoo, apparently.

Who gives a shit?

[RatBastard]

I mean, really, who the hell cares? You can not create anything in a vacuum anymore. No matter how hard you try, you can not help but be influenced by things, ideas, places, people, etc... that already exists, often without you even knowing about it.

Look at the Vatican Library

[ancarett]

You can easily see the likeness to the Vatican library as depicted here, not to mention many others including the Escorial and Laurentian libraries.

Lucas admits to Campbell -- and it's all from Jung

[mactari]

In a pretty regularly rerun interview with Campbell by Bill Moyers, Lucas is also interviewed and explores quite a bit that he "took" from Campbell for Star Wars, or at least where he agrees with Campbell's work. I remember catching it a while back on PBS (public TV in the US), and it was pretty interesting, though it peeved me Campbell acted like this was some discovery of his (see more at the end of this post).

Here's a copy of DVD. From the description on that site:
Joseph Campbell: The Power Of Myth

Year: 2002
On Video: October 2, 2001
Starring: Joseph Campbell
Bill Moyers
George Lucas
Genre: Documentary
Synopsis: An interview with master storyteller and mythology professor Joseph Campbell. Features an interview with George Lucas exploring the mythology of Star Wars.

And all of this came from Carl Jung, who coined the term archetype, and had written volumes on the Wise Old Man years before Campbell was out of diapers.

Heard it

[tswinzig]

Get a new "slashdotted a star wars site" joke, please.

Dune and Hinduism?

[Osty]

Perhaps Star Wars has some similarities to Hinduism, but how does that apply to Star Wars having similarities to Dune? Dune was pretty firmly based on Islamic and Buddhist ideas, not Hindu. Mostly Islamic, though.

Copyright term

[Idarubicin]

The building is more than one hundred years old. (Actually, it's quite a bit older than that.) Any patents, copyrights, etc. have long since expired, if such could be said to exist for a building design anyway. The architects are long dead. The structure itself isn't trademarked.

So Lucas borrowed a library design--or possibly just a style that is quite common in many older libraries. If he's going to steal stuff, it's good that it's public domain stuff. It's a little depressing that it's better than a lot of the original bits of AOTC, however.

This is not the news you're looking for. Move along.

Other similar rooms:

[Peyna]

Quick Victoria Building in Sydney.

The Cleveland Arcade

Etc. I'm sure there are many more, but this is not in any way a unique architectural style that was used.

He owes me!

[glenebob]

George drove by my house one night (I'm pretty sure) and saw one of the shrubs in front of my house. I know because it looks just like the shrubs in episode 1. I want him to call me and thank me personally for growing such a fabulous shrub for him to copy. And give me money. And I want to be Darth in episode 3.

Re:Creativity and innovation always build on the p

[gmhowell]

Certainly you've watched over someone's shoulder as they search the web. In my experience, that's only slightly less painful than the 'makeout in the meadow' scene.

Re:Creativity and innovation always build on the p

[ClosedSource]

"Creativity and innovation always builds on the past."

So I guess Lessig thinks MS is an innovator after all.

in related news...

[Joey7F]

Jesus sues Lucasfilm Ltd. for adapting his virgin birth to the big screen. Mr. Christ was quoted as saying "I disagree that any similarity with any person living or dead is", before using airquotes, "purely coincidental".

Big frickin whoop! Anyway, go check out the DVD it is awesome!

--Joey

The star wars library picture is a render ...

[Augusto]

... not a screenshot. So I think this version looks even more like the Dublin library.

Would be nice to post a screenshot from the movie to compare instead.

You mean Nintendo should pay Lucas?

[Augusto]

Super Mario came out way after A New Hope. You probably weren't even born then I assume ;-)

It even predates Donkey Kong.

Re:You mean Nintendo should pay Lucas?

[Augusto]

I just remember playing SuperMarioBros in a video machine in the theater where I saw Episode 4 the first time in 1977 or mayby in 1978... Well, since SMB firts apperrance was in 1982, mayby it's episode 5.

Whoa, you're way off. Donkey Kong was released in 1981. In 1977 Pong was years out but was not very popular, until the next year 1978 Space Invaders is released and kicks off arcade mania.

In 1983 Mario Brothers is released, not "Super Mario brothers".

Super Mario brothers is released in 1985, and it was not an arcade game but a NES game.

Re:Imax Version w/o hall?

[Augusto]

They cut it out, because the movie is longer than 2 hours and IMAX can only show 2 hour movies.

The library scene is in the DVD, so no, you're wrong.

IMAX Episode 2

[freeweed]

If you hated the love scenes as much as I did, go check out the IMAX version of AOTC. This isn't just a 35mm print on an IMAX screen, they've digitally whizz-banged it up to cover all 7(8) stories!

Cut were several love scenes, most of Jar-Jar's dialog, and Jimmy Smits' entire role, save for a cameo at the very end of the movie. It's almost like Lucas did a Phantom Edit all by his lonesome, although we really know it was to fit into IMAX's scheduling.

Where he really owes a debt

[jcsehak]

The debt he truly owes is to the creators of "Family Matters." If they had never dreamed up that adorable clown Steve Urkel, the comedic genius of Jar-Jar Binks might never have been realized. Also, there should be a nod to the creators of "Charles in Charge" for inspiration garnered from Charles' buddy,... Buddy.

Re:Lucas admits to Campbell -- and it's all from J

[the gnat]

I agree that Lucas has "admitted" to this, but I still think it's pretentious film-school bullshit invented after the fact to make Lucas sound like more of an artiste than he might otherwise. It's like Jerry Bruckheimer talking about how he tried to work Shakespearean themes into "Armageddon". Or like Ari Fleischer describing W.'s forays into the world's great thinkers- "he's been spending a lot of time reading classical political theorists." Yeah. Right.

Most beautiful building in Ohio?

[stereoroid]

I really have to wonder how the citizens of Dublin, Ohio feel about having their tax dollars pay such a dramatic building in their back yard? Normally you only find this kind of luxury in Europe...

I know, I know. But if Lucas's designers are copying Irish buildings, what's next? The next CGI character: a little green thing with a red hat (?) that drinks a whole lot and rejoices in the moniker Pah-de-oht'ool ?

Debt to Cambridge

[PHAEDRU5]

When the Long Room was built, just about the only stipulation was that it be longer than a similar library at Cambridge University in England.

And it is, by a few feet.

Incidentally, the libaray is on the second floor of the building, to protect the books. You see, Trinity was built in the flood plain of the Liffey. Many of the original Trinity buildings literally sank from view because of inadequate drainage.