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Speaking Out For Free Software In India
inode_buddha writes "We all know how RMS and Bill Gates toured India recently, with mostly mixed reviews. The reviews don't seem so mixed after reading this memo
regarding the use of software in Indian schools... and it's interesting how quickly these people pick up on the business.
IMHO, this letter ranks up there with the Peruvian Congressman's letter to Microsoft in clarity and impact.
People worldwide are beginning to wake up, and this needs to be shouted from the (networked) hills... "
Personally, I think opensource is a great alternative for counteries who are not as wealthy as the united state might be. (I mean, when it comes to public services... schools.. and the like) and would be a great way to save on huge licensing fees... and thus help the technological expansion of said foreign country.
Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
1.3 Even if the said corporation whose software is chosen provides software free of cost, we submit that the government should not include it in the syllabus. Providing schools or other educational institutions software at little or no cost, while the same software is sold at very high prices in the open market is a marketing trick.
Its official - India is smarter then the USA.
Sex - Find It
Currently ther's been a lot of talk about things like the DMCA and other laws which restrict infomation flow in different ways
This all makes me wonder... could it be possible that countries who are more open source avare and benefit less from proprietary software would introduce laws which restrict the possibilities for proprietary software, just as some laws already restrict open source software in countries which benefit more from proprietary software.
Thoughts anyone?
.: Max Romantschuk
Rather sad/ironic that the USA is really the last to embrase Open Source. Hey, it's still not legal to play a DVD.
You'd think the PC industry would go to bat against hollywood, since actual illegial copying helps then out a great deal.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
and whether it competes successfully against Microsoft can really only be fought in these newly technologically maturing countries such as India and China. The war against Microsoft was long ago lost to the US. 95% of all OS are Microsoft in the US. But in China and India there is still a chance that Microsoft will not gain a majority much less a monopoly. Let's work together with these countries to ensure that Microsoft doesn't become a global monopoly and eventually more powerful than the US government!
India has a huge enough population and an already established I.T sector that even if half the population of educated proffesionals support either M$ or open src they're already big winners. The obvious bonus is to get the most behind you. I don't know what RMS is going to do, Gates has already won the popularity contest.
Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
It seems that third-world nations, which don't have the option of pouring money down a never-ending sink hole, understand what so many organizations (such as the US military) don't: that free software, in addition to having zero license costs, also has a much lower TCO due to its ability to scale up/down to fit the available hardware, and the ease of management (update all the school's machines? not a problem with rsync, for example)
The only problem is, India's IT sector seems permanently wedded to Microsoft. However, if the new generation can grow up exposed to BSD and Linux and understand that MS isn't always the best option, then maybe some much-needed competition on the desktop will finally develop on a global scale.
Being Microsoft and all, this comes as little surprise... but my goodness that sounds like a great deal of money to be spent on operating systems, even if its in rupees and not dollars. Anyone got the conversion for Rupees to Dollars?
"Swatantryam"
;-)
Quote:
7.4 We wish to clarify that by the term 'Free Software' used above, we are referring to 'freedom', as in 'swatantryam' - not 'soujanyam'
You may want to Save Private Ryan, but you'll Swat Ant Ryam..
4.1 If our students are to really understand and learn programming and develop software skills, they should learn not only to use computers, but also understand why they function the way they do. This involves learning programing skills. To learn programing, students should have access to source code of the software they use. We trust that you have studied and understood the terms under which the corporation, whose software is currently prescribed for study, licenses its software. It should be emphasised that they do not provide access to source code, which is a a closely guarded secret. By insisting on programs from a particular company, the government is denying our students an opportunity to learn about programs and software development skills. We need not repeat that this policy would not help our community in the long run.
This is exactly why closed source software should banned from educational use. When studying literature you can see how the author strings the words together to create a novel. There is no better way to understand how something works than to examine how the various pieces come together to form the whole.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
OLPC Australia
"Do something man. Right now."
This letter was submitted by an analogue of a LUG; although it would be nice were it otherwise, a LUG has hardly the influence of a Peruvian Senator.
Still, it's nice to see that someone is fighting the good fight in India.
The memo is about the schools, and learning requires being able to take things apart and see how they work. This is done in biology, literature, history, anthropology, medicine, etc. Even Computer Science / ICT
So in addition to providing a solid IT / ICT infrastructure, OSS and Free Software play a central, pedagogical role that cannot be fulfilled by closed proprietary solutions.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
I love the way they talk about said company without mentioning them by name, the devil is so well known he needs no name.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Looks like the most technologically forward nation will be the last to embrace OSS. Then again, it's nice to see a reversal in roles. Usually, it's trends in the US that are absorbed by other nations after having proven themselves here. In this case, it looks like the US is waiting to see how OSS works around the world.
Then again, you could argue that the US was caught in it's own trap, since in it's eagerness, it has turned a blind eye to the obvious.
So far, we've seen two good decisions come out of India. This is the third and it is based on sound reasoning. It is also nice to se ethis coming from Kerala - I think just about the only state of India that boasts a 100% literacy rate. It shows the right people are thinking. However, taking things from idea to reality has always been a weakness of any state or national government in India unless they're really committed to the cause.
I guess it's now just a matter of "wait and see" as to how soon these policies will be implemented. We all know the sooner the better, but try explaining that to a politician while sifting through red tape. Wait. Don't flame me. I'm merely stating a fact. There is a lot of red tape in India.
However, you always need to start somewhere and it's great to see three decisions along the same lines within a relatively short period of time. Let's hope they're serious about it.
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
Damn
OK - maybe only people from one state in India will understand it, but it still sounds better than 'free as in beer/speech'
Chapter I: The Importance Of Being In India
While there are no published numbers, back of the envelope calculations indicate Microsoft's Indian arm currently generates sales in the region of Rs 1,600 crore. That's a little over $330 million. This ties in neatly with the fact that last year, India purchased packaged software worth $409 million - of which 80% were Microsoft products. But, honestly, for a juggernaut sitting on $40 billion in accumulated cash and a projected turnover of $32 billion in fiscal 2003, $409 million is loose change. So what "destiny" is Mistry talking about?
The fast-talking British citizen of Indian origin has been in the country for barely 10 months now. He heads a team of 17 evangelists, keeps obscenely long hours, lives out of his suitcase and has an awfully tough mandate from Microsoft's headquarters in Redmond - do whatever it takes to keep Indian developers and programmers working on Microsoft platforms.
Unlike any other director heading operations in the country, Mistry has no revenue targets to meet. "The Indian systems integrator, as he moves up the value chain, will finally make a decision on what platform to settle on. We have to capture them before they make that decision. Which is why, my team is very important for Microsoft Corporation, not just for India alone."
Intrigued? Don't be. Estimates put the present size of India's developer population at anywhere between 450,000 and 600,000. That's about 10% of the world's developer population. By end-2002, India will probably have more developers than any country in the world. This is why it is important to gain control of this population.
"We are paranoid someone is going to come along and take away mindshare from developers. We're paranoid something out there is going to be more exciting to developers." Quite clearly, Mistry is talking of the threat Linux poses to Microsoft. Probe him. He'll hark back to January, when he took up his Indian assignment. Among the first things he did was to put two people from his team on Linux forums. They were asked to figure out: what is it that excites the Linux community? Is it plain Microsoft baiting? Is it Bill Gates bashing? Is it a desire to change the world? For Mistry, answers to those questions hold solutions on how to choke the Linux community in India. By doing that, the open source world loses access to one of the largest developer bases. Deprived of that base, the movement suffers and Microsoft gains a major victory. "This is primarily a battle for the hearts and minds," says Mistry.
Till sometime ago, Microsoft and Mistry didn't have to worry about losing the Indian developer. But with the tech downturn and corporates slashing IT spends, things changed. Public perception that using open source technologies reduce the cost of technology deployments convinced companies across the world to seriously consider cheaper alternatives. Consequently, the number of jobs available for developers working on these technologies went up. To get a sense of that, log on to Monster.com, the world's largest online job board. The number of people needed with expertise in open source technologies is roughly the same as that of those with expertise on Microsoft platforms.
Now add to this the fact that Indian contribution to the open source community has shot up over the last year. Chennaikavigal, a Chennai-based product company, is working on an Indian office suite designed to work on the Linux platform. In fact, language fonts for Linux are now available for practically every Indian language. There is Delhi-based Kandalya building applications that work on free and open source technologies. Then there's Anjuta, which is a development environment for C and C++ on Linux. There's also the Bangalore-based Peacock Solutions, which calls itself the first Indian company to commercialise supercomputing technology on a Linux platform. Peacock's projects include building Linux parallel supercomputers for high-speed rendering, molecular modelling, weather modelling and bioinformatics solutions. And, the list of converts to Linux keeps growing.
Flashback to October 1999. Businessworld was talking to a senior Microsoft functionary on the sidelines of a conference on e-commerce. "What do you think of Linux?" Businessworld had then queried. "What's that?" he shot back. Things have certainly changed since then.
It's the 'roaches-under-the-board theory' at work, says Javed Tapia, director at Red Hat (India), a Linux distributor. Cockroaches multiply because typically they're under a board and no one cares what happens below the board. One day when you lift the board and look, there are a few million of them waiting to get out. By the time you get around to swatting them, most escape. That's pretty much what happened with Linux, chuckles Tapia. "Microsoft ignored us for too long. Thank God for that."
Chapter II: It's The Money, Honey
Forget the developer argument for a moment and focus on the economics - a packaged software market currently worth $409 million, of which 80% is controlled by Microsoft. But the legal market is small potatoes. Estimates say for every licensed piece of software Microsoft sells in India, there are eight pirated copies doing the rounds. Which means, in an ideal Indian world, Microsoft would sell software worth a whopping $2.64 billion (that's 8 x $330 million) in India. Add another factoid here. In 2001, when IT spending was being slashed across the world, the packaged software market grew 37% in India. Growth rates are expected to continue at this rate for a few years to come. Those sort of numbers cannot be sneezed away.
Now take another look at the Indian market. Two-thirds of the packaged software sold in the country is picked up by the government. The rest is largely accounted for by the private corporate sector. Now imagine a world where the government makes a conscious decision to move towards Linux.
There are precedents. Over two dozen governments in Asia, Europe and Latin America, including China and Germany, are encouraging the use of open source software - the most popular of which is Linux. In Germany, the government argued that moving to Linux would help cut costs and improve security. In an interview to BBC, German interior minister Otto Schilly said: "We are raising computer security by avoiding a monoculture, and we are lowering dependence on a single supplier."
In Taiwan, the government has announced a National Open Source Plan earlier this year. It aims to establish a software development infrastructure based on free and open source to create a foundation for Taiwan's software industry. It includes the creation of a "Chinese Open Source Software Environment" international cooperation on free application software development, and work with community colleges and non-government organisations to train 9,600 teachers and 120,000 users. Also, the national education system will switch to Open Source.
That these initiatives are being observed seriously in India is evident from the number of government projects under way on Linux. Like we mentioned earlier, the judiciary, the Central Railways, Air-India, Central Excise, Delhi RTO, various e-governance projects across the country. The list is increasing. It's a battle Microsoft cannot afford to lose.
Cut to Corporate India. At a recent Hewlett-Packard seminar on solutions for the manufacturing industry, attended by 300 CIOs, almost 60% said they would be moving to Linux-based systems. Kamal Dutta, HP India's country business manager, isn't surprised. "Enterprise customers are evolving strategies for Linux," he says.
In India, manufacturing and telecom companies are looking at some form of Linux use, though banking firms are staying away at the moment. Explains Dutta: "Banks are conservative." He doesn't expect Linux to completely take over the rest of the market but he says that he can see a "more heterogeneous environment where say core applications like ERP, CRM could run on existing systems while others like VPN, mail, load balancing could be on Linux."
Hughes Software Systems (HSS) started working on Linux almost seven years back. But in the last 12 months, there has been a spurt in interest. Says HSS' head of engineering: "Telecom OEM (original equipment manufacturers) who make boxes for telecom networks want Linux solutions. It's also becoming popular in the area of embedded applications.''
To begin with, companies are deploying Linux to the extent of 15-20% of the total applications - mainly in mail servers, RAS, Web servers. And the reasons for going the Linux way is that "it decreases their dependence on the hardware vendor, the companies can negotiate with multiple vendors and hence get better deals, it lowers the total cost of ownership and offers flexibility,'' says Dutta.
That's not an argument that Microsoft is willing to accept. Argues Sanjay Mathur, head of marketing at Microsoft India: "With fewer dollars to spend on technology, some corporations have been considering Linux. The irony is that choosing Linux may be more expensive in the long run. Emerging data indicates that corporations spend more for additional software, labour and consultant costs when they choose Linux."
Precisely the reason why a ruthless battle on Indian soil appears inevitable.
Chapter III: How Ruthless Does It Get!
WHAT is clear is that Linux has made inroads into the Indian landscape. What isn't clear is: to what extent. Details are hard to come by. As Sandeep Menon, head of IBM's Linux initiative in the country says: "It is not owned or tracked by any one organisation. People simply download the software. Data from International Data Corporation, or IDC (a research firm that tracks IT trends) only shows how many CDs have been sold or how many downloads have been made." The problem with this data is that because Linux's terms of licence allow a user to make as many copies as he needs and distribute them freely, it is impossible to estimate how many copies actually exist.
The other more significant problem is that those in the know don't like to talk. Menon, for instance, knows of virtually every major Linux project underway in the country. But he doesn't like giving out details. "Strategic reasons," he explains.
It's much the same thing with Red Hat's Tapia. Now, Red Hat is the largest distributor of Linux in the world. "I can do with little publicity. In fact, I can do with no publicity." The reason, says Tapia, is that he doesn't know how Microsoft will strike back.
For instance, says a Linux distributor speaking off the record, his company had recently concluded a deal with a large private sector company to implement Linux across the organisation. This was done after the company rejected a Rs 9-crore Microsoft proposal to upgrade its systems. Even as the ink on the deal was drying, Microsoft staged a counter attack by offering to implement the infrastructure for just Rs 2 crore. "And we lost out on what could have been the best lighthouse projects for Linux in the country," rues Tapia.
Chapter IV: The Chinks in Linux's Armour
But, for all its strengths, Linux has its own crosses to bear. "It's too early to conclude that Linux will be everywhere," says Srikant Acharya, SCO's (formerly Caldera) country director for India. SCO is among the largest implementors of Linux- and UNIX-based systems worldwide. The feeling is echoed by
IBM's Menon. He reckons that though Linux will catch on, the chances that it will overthrow Microsoft are thin. "My guess is both will exist." There are various reasons for that.
The most fundamental problem with Linux is that it is an amorphous entity around which robust business models are yet to evolve. Companies that have built a business around it are still gasping for breath. Take Red Hat. In spite of a 71% marketshare, it reported losses in excess of $140 million. Worse, Red Hat's total revenue is down from fiscal 2001. Now consider the other Linux vendors - SCO, Connectiva, Turbolinux and SuSE. In a bid to achieve greater strength, these vendors came together to create UnitedLinux. Mathur of Microsoft points out that Red Hat and Mandrakesoft refused to join the alliance. "The lack of unity among the Linux vendors offers evidence of continued fracturing," he says.
The point in all of this is a simple one really. The largest Linux vendors are still trying to gain critical size in their home countries. Given this reality, the incentive they have to push their distribution unitedly in countries like India, where the market is still exploring the operating system, are remote. Over the last couple of months, Microsoft has used these facts to hammer home a key point with clients. That unlike others, Microsoft isn't likely to go down in a rush.
Lack of Support: Then there is the issue of government policy itself. In spite of the fact that Linux evangelists have been pushing for increased acceptance of the software in India, truth is, until now, no policy documents have been framed. Frederick Noronha, a freelance journalist and Open Source evangelist points out that Goa actually went ahead and gazetted a pro-Open Source/Free Software notification. "But how does one implement this? The departments keep flouting it. The basic flaw is with the tendering process, which can be subverted in 101 ways if the intentions are malafide. Since then, the Goa IT minister (Ramakant Khalap) has defected from the ruling party. The so-called government policy turned out to be a one-man initiative, which has all come back to a big zero."
Then there is the case of Karnataka. Here, the IT Department supports Open Source on paper. But even as the police force goes in for modernisation, it is being equipped with Windows XP machines. The only exception until now has been Kerala, where the IT policy makes it mandatory for all government departments to first consider free/open source software for all its needs. And only after open source solutions have been exhausted can the government go in for proprietary systems.
The lack of legislation percolates to other areas too. In education, for instance. Dr Nagarjuna G, a teacher at the Homi Bhabha Science Centre in Mumbai and an active free software evangelist is pained as he flips through the IT syllabi of various colleges in the country. The reason is "a lack of secular IT education loaded almost entirely against free and open source software." What he means is this. In most colleges, teachers are asked to show the students how to use Excel or Word. "Why?" asks Dr Nagarjuna. "Shouldn't students be shown how to use a spreadsheet or a word processing document? What they ultimately choose ought to be up to them. Why should the state make a choice on their behalf?" He's been lobbying to get the discrepancies removed. And he's notched up some successes. But there's a long way to go.
Misunderstandings: Tapia of Red Hat faces a rather unique problem. While the interest in what he provides is high, most clients are reluctant to pay for the services he offers. The problem stems from the fact that most people imagine Linux is free. They argue that since it can be downloaded from the Internet or purchased from any vendor at a nominal cost, the prices Red Hat quotes are too high.
But Red Hat's business model, like those of other vendors in the Linux space, is built around a simple assumption. While the basic software itself is free, users will pay for the support vendors provide. It's an argument that has not gone down too well with Indian business. Weaned on a steady diet of Microsoft support that comes with software purchases, the new business model is still making itself understood in most places. "I end up not signing many contracts as clients don't understand they have to pay for support. Where else will my bread and butter come from?" asks Tapia.
Epilogue
In the past, numerous contenders have tried and failed to dislodge Windows. But like we said earlier, Linux, has a key advantage. It isn't owned by anyone. To that extent, Microsoft does not know exactly whom to attack.
Take Asia for instance. Linux, outside of Japan, is being driven by the fact that the continent is less developed than the US or Europe. What this means is that there are fewer computers in the region. Consequently, there are fewer small- and medium-sized enterprises committed to Microsoft products. More importantly, these companies don't have dollars at their disposal of the kind American and European companies have. Which is why, their propensity to acquire Linux is higher.
Does that mean the future of Microsoft in this part of the world is at stake? Not quite. Sure, Linux has been growing rapidly. But it has, at least until now, been confined to servers. More importantly, this growth is coming in at the expense of older operating systems. By 2006, IDC estimates that 26% of the servers in operation will be running Linux while 56% will still run Windows. The remaining 12% will be on UNIX. As for the desktop market itself, shipment details are hazy. Compaq, Dell and, more recently, LG are shipping Linux machines into the Indian market. Until next year, when clear numbers emerge, it will be difficult to gauge how it is being accepted.
Then there are questions on whether businesses based on almost-free technology can ever be profitable - a challenge for Linux companies everywhere, but particularly for those in Asia. A recent IDC report says that although worldwide sales of servers of all types will rise 17% annually over the next four years, revenues will inch up only 1%, largely due to the low cost of Linux.
In Korea, growing competition among Linux distributors have forced prices of a basic Linux package to as low as $10. A Red Hat version that sells for $80 in the US, hawks for less than $3 in China. That's hardly any money worth writing home about. As for business models built around the support and services models, they're still nascent and have some way to go before they mature. It's a long haul - an awfully long haul.
Additional inputs by Shelley Singh
Welley Corporation - SLM Scammers
Problem statement: .... u get the picture. :)
People are used to windows. In India, widespread piracy has ensured that Windows is avaiable with almost every grey market PC and in every school/home/office.
Linux lurks in the background as a potential replacement, but most people are just not comfortable with the idea. Including SysAdmins! I know, cause i have worked in enuf companies to see that.
The actual trick to popularize Linux is a hack of sorts... complain regularly to the local antipiracy people about illegal usage of Windows in office! IT WORKS!
A very large company (i shall keep its name to myself, considering my brother works in one of its sister concerns)once had its offices raided by the local antipiracy guys here (called NASSCOM). The same evening, their sysadmin called up the admin guy in my company to ask about the feasiblity of using StarOffice iinstead of MSO.
As a tech writer, my admin guy decided that i might be the best person to give an unbiased review. It turned out that for their purposes, SO (and OOo)was good enough, so i recommended that they go ahead.
I have no idea if they actually did, but i hope they did.
Another important factor to note is that people may be a little wary of using Linux as their OS, but replacing MSO with OOo is a less stressful option for them!
It might be a good idea for people to start asking for OOo on machines from their vendors. even if it comes with XP or 2k etc.
It takes away quite a few dollars from MS, which if u have read the reports has only 2 money making divisions with MSO being one of them. A reduced cash flow there (in addition to helping customers get great value for money - a complete office suite for free!) would cause MS to light a fire under the antipiracy guys who would raid more companies looking for illegal copies of that and piss more companies into using OOo which would further reduce the dependence of customer and deplete MSO revenues which would light another fire underthe
its certainly possible in india at least... at least 1 (Zenith) of the 2 big local PC vendors here has no deals with MS and may be open to the idea of bundling OOo. additionally there are a lot of intel authorised dealers (essentially former grey market guys) who provide a lot of the home PCs in the country! now it remains to actually implement all this...
A crank is a little thing that makes revolutions
Ordinarily, donations from Bill and Linda Gates come from the Gates Foundation, and are made without press releases and public fanfare. This is how it should be. And don't get me going on how generous they are, with MS giving away such small percentages compared to other corporations...
In the last few weeks, we all saw the headlines about Gates giving India millions to support AIDS groups, and how he intends to invest more to help programmers in India as well. Why was this act a headline, when others are normally done quietly?
Because Gates is trying to buy MS favor with India using the sick and dead as a pole to tie his promotional flag to. It stinks, and no one but the most stubborn is buying it for a minute.
==-==
Remember, investing in MS is asking to have your own money used against you in the market place.
Isn't it fascinating how virtually *every* pro-MS comment here is from "Anonymous Coward"? TCO analysis depends substantially on the intended outputs of your "engine of commerce". If your product is going to be creative, resourceful programmers, engineers, scientists, and critical thinkers, my answer is different than one might prescribe for a traditional office environment. The "expense" and "lack of interconnectivity" demons seem to be unsubstantiated FUD in this case. You know, until XP came out I usually recommended Microsoft solutions to my business clients and Unix/Mac solutions for non-profit/academic clients. With the new licensing burden and onerous EULA, it is getting much tougher to say Microsoft with a straight face... smoke that one for a while.
If one, standard GUI were enough to propel an OS to desktop stardom, then OS/2, BeOS - and dare I say - Amiga, would all have run Winders off the map.
There is nothing more standard than the set of API's that comprise the 80% of the Free Software iceberg, all submerged beneath the desktop waterline.
POSIX, Berkeley Net 4.x, X11 and RFC after RFC - with a HIGH degree of compliance.
A little secret you can share with your friends: The future does not belong to general-purpose desktop computing. Small, purpose specific devices are smarter and better suited for the highly-connected future, and will be where most of the consumer and knowledge-worker action will migrate over the next ten years.
Technologists and content creators will rely on their workstations - but more people will be interfacing with general-purpose computers on the back-end. This is a space where almost any standards-based system has worlds of advantages over MS - and Free Software crushes price and performance.
This is India. I'd love to see the Windows Pocket Edition competitor to the Simputer... A machine who's guiding ethos in its design included altruism.
MS is really viable as a monopoly only in a world where the consumers can be convinced of the need for a PC or two on every desk, and in every home, and the PC golden age is waning. Edit home videos? If you have that kind of disposable income for such a marginally material life activity, you can buy a Mac - which becomes in effect, a purpose-specific device, with e-mail as a sidleline benefit.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
I couldn't read that letter without the little voice in my head sounding like Apu was reading it.
grr...
A free app is worthless if it doesn't do what I need.
that is precisely the point -- even if MS would give their software to the IT@SCHOOL project for free it would not be acceptable.
in the larger view, "do what I need" is not as simple as "performance" and "superiority". it is a healthy IT industry in 10 years, a government not controlled, in essence, by a large foreign software company.
The zealots can't seem to grasp this.
at least in some cases, the zealots are not so unfortunately short-sighted.
MORTAR COMBAT!
It's also interesting how recently slashdot editors are picking up on the fact that there is significant technical awareness even in countries they've never heard of.
Build stuff. Stuff that walks, stuff that rolls, whatever.
The first hit is always free.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
People worldwide are beginning to wake up, and this needs to be shouted from the (networked) hills...
Whoa. Ok! I will start shouting! More seriously: it is not a religion - nothing to shout from networked hills. Or if it is then it is not. Religions are rather scary because they don't often make decisions based on common sense. Open source just makes sense because of practical reasons for some(many) cases.
The giant condum-balloon was not to make fun of Mr. Bill G. It was to thank him for his millions of dollars of donations to AIDS research, prevention, and education.
India has 4 million persons infected with HIV, second only to South Africa.
AIDS will kill more people than cancer in the very, very near future.
MORTAR COMBAT!
The awareness in India is brough by published magazines, that carry tools that are Open Source on CDs. A definite trend of rise of "Services" industry around Linux and other open source tools is visible. It won't be far fetched conclusion that when India (a pool of millions of Software Developers) wakes up to Open Source, the world will be free from marketing gimmicks. :-D
Hmmm... Ok.. Chivas on the rocks.
Actually, not so easy to maintain. And in schools, I would insist that students learn both commercial and Free Software. The plan from Microsoft implies that MSware will be compulsory, with no mention of alternate software (MS Office, MS Windows....)
What I recommend is that schools have dual boot capabilities and students learn to use both Unix and Microsoft.
The local language issue hasn't been fixed in any way, with loads of broken stuff even in Windows. There are multiple attempts for converting OpenSource/Free Software into Indic, while Microsoft is supporting a few languages, officially. Support for the remaining languages is promised n the next release of windows.
Also remember that the syllabus is set for 10 years, so there will be no modifications until the next revision. I think that cost is just too high.
Most hardware available is old. Plenty of schools still run 386/486 processors. There is no way that Win2K can be made available without spending lots of money on hardware. Linux/BSD will run fine on the older boxen.
Just my 1 INR.
I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
I think it's a great letter and I agree with most all of the points made and they are made well...
/. and elsewhere touting the fact that Linux was chosen for this and other academic projects, but from reading this letter it seems now to be in doubt.
But, I don't see why it's so earthshaking. It's basically a letter written to government officials from a free software user's group - what do you expect 'em to say? Its analogous to a Linux User's group somewhere drafting a letter to send to their state officials.
So no, I don't think it ranks up there with the letter by the Peruvian representative. If it were written by a group of government officials to other government officials then it would be a big deal.
Actually reading this letter I was disappointed to find out that Gates' visit apparently had some impact on decisions that were being made by the IT@SCHOOL project in this particular Indian state. A few weeks back there were articles on
How much impact do you think this letter (however good their arguments are) will have on these government officials compared to Bill Gates spreading $millions all over India to buy off these officials?
Somebody stop that man!
Its like this. We indians avoid buying things on credit... and we always try to save and we are very very very cost consious. Not all but most. So as long as people get a free WIN XP from the local computer assembler thats good, if they dont they will not take it. We will chose linux, rather than spending money. As far as IT professionals go we are sick and tired of bribery. Newspapers in india are calling it a bribe. And yes we are watching. There is inherent distrust of M$. So things will go on. Moreover the cream of indian IT students have spent most if not all of their college life(IIT's and REC's here) under *nix based platforms. We grew up in microsoft cursing drunken parties ;-). So the sway will be minimal. Yes Gates has captured hearts but he hasnt captured my heart yet... and this I can say for many other IT professionals also. Life will go on as it is.
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
I can't see why MS and others do not implement a software technology to prevent piracy.
The first one's always free.
MORTAR COMBAT!
This memo is from a User Group, not from a govt.
official. I don't see how this is in anyway at the
same level as the Peruvian Senator's memo. Not to
discount the fact that the memo is written very
well indeed.
I am an Indian but these kudos are a bit misplaced.
I would be really proud if some politician would put
his name to the memo.
Don't get your hopes up. There's still LOTS of corruption, especially with anything related to the bureacracy, regardless of the good intentions. I'm Indian, born there and raised here since I was 2. Our friends here and relatives there say that if want to help some cause, do it yourself or through a trusted NGO, but not through the government.
Things are much better now, having improved over the last 2 decades because of business reforms, but there's still a long way to go. So essentially, a company, or any multi-national, could probably still make lot of headway by buying off the right decision makers.
The primary advantage that OSS has is primarily cost and the fuzzy feel-good mission of it. But they are pragmatists, so if the world wants MSFT, then they will oblige, especially if MSFT can make concessions.
China has a much better shot of escaping the clutches of MSFT, because they benefit, ironically, from being authoritarian (or whatever they've morphed into today). The Chinese government mandate to pursue OSS is probably more effective than the advocacy or advice of some groups in India. Because in the end, Indian software developers are free to pursue their business interests, just like American ones, so many will engage MSFT because of that.
But that's just my opinion.
No permanent wedding here. Yes there are microsoft lovers and *nix lovers in indian IT. And I dont know for what reason media coverage is goven mostly to MS lovers.... but the ratio is balanced. Companies in CRM, ERM etc are wedded to M$ as their clients in US/Europe are. However go towards IC design, Networking, embedded software the wedding is with *nix... some linux and much solaris.
As far as the upcoming generation, the top rated colleges have LAN's built on linux. I passed out in '01... and we were fed on a linux and solaris diet. The professors, lecturers.. esp the senior folks are very strong advocates of linux coz in the 80's when ernet(out sorf of college internet) came up it was entirely on unix. 8Kbps of blazing speed and mail could be sent within 24 hours. It was a miracle ;-). So I would not worry too much about it. India has been late in linux no doubt.. but we will soon catch up.
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Do you really think that this is ultimately going to come down to a popularity contest between two figureheads?
Eventually it's going to come down to the same cost vs benefits tradeoff that people debate about endlessly around here. That's the real issue, not whether Gates or Stallman is more 1337.
This letter highlights a lot of the key issues going. I think it's interesting to note that the major tech boom of the last twenty or so years came out of the US, where university students had full access to the UNIX source code, where they learned what some of the best developers in the world could put together. Students today who just learn Visual Basic or some such crap aren't going to be the ones changing the tech world in the next twenty years. Countries that realize this and gear their educational programs accordingly will reap the benefits.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
The problem today is that India's programmers, as a resource, are commoditized. They no longer cost 10% of what you would expect to pay in North America, as an example.
While I believe that Indians are by far the most skilled coders available, the fact that the costs have risen to match other resources, as an example, means India has lost the opportunity it had ten years ago, which was to corner the software development market.
There are new areas with similar resource avaiable today, and the cost for coders in these countries is again 10% of North America. How will India's programmers perform in tomorrow's market when other sources are ready for pennies on the dollar....all of these conversations should have been held many years ago.
Being selfish can work great for an individual. The government is not supposed to care about what is "easy" or "entertaining". The government is entrusted with a mighty responsibility, and if you take that responsibility seriously, and look at the long-term effects of beginning to suckle at Microsoft's teat... you realise fairly quickly that for a little bit of "fiddling" and "work", in 10 years India can control its own destiny, instead of being enslaved by annual Microsoft subscription fees.
MORTAR COMBAT!
I don't know if you know the tagline, free as in Freedom, not free as in beer.
The reason people are throwing their voices behind Linux is because of the freedom it affords the users. You are very much in control of your machine. It is yours. The software, that's yours. The data you generate, that's yours too. The documentation, that's also yours. But it's not yours alone, it's everyone else's too.
This is a very powerful idea, and it works in this case because of the negligible cost of duplicating software.
People are not involved in this fight (if a fight it truly is, to many it's not) in order to simply hate something. It is to free themselves, to gain some measure of self-control and power in some small, but substantial way. If Microsoft were to completely vanish from the face of the Earth, I think that people would find other things to rail against, and they would very likely line up along the same path. What would be the next target? Whatever restricted freedoms the most.
And should Linux "win" it would be a win for the BSD's, a win for the Hurd, a win for OpenBeOS, a win for ReactOS, and a win for every other Free OS out there, as well as Free software in general. It's not about Linux, it's about freedom and any free OS would win, it just happens that Linux is in the spotlight moreso than the others.
So if you're running Linux just to save a couple of bucks, then I can't fault you, but what you're missing out is the sensation of freedom and power. I personally love the fact that I can contribute to Debian and various programs wherever I see a need. I could never do this with Windows or my old Mac (pre-OSX). I certaintly can't add a program to Windows the way I can incorporate a program that I like in to Debian, no way no how. That's power and that's freedom and it's an amazing thing to take part in. So rather than whine about your $34, why not think about your windows system and all the ways that you're restricted from it, and then maybe you'll see why people are so excited over this whole Free thing.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
Actually what you're describing is known as a FREE MARKET.
Fortunately being an American you have an open invitation to travel on a work visa to many many countries in the world and provide your services.
If you choose not to excercise this amazing priviledge (a priviledge most Indian citizens do not enjoy IMA) then you must make do with what you can find locally.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
While on the subject of India and FLOSS, check out the site for Linux Bangalore/2002 the second conference in the series. Here's stuff on last year's event, Linux Bangalore/2001 .
-- start quote --
Linux Bangalore/2002 is a three day conference on understanding and using Linux technologies. This conference aims to cover a large number of areas that include Core Linux technologies, Open Source, Embedded Systems and other allied technologies.
-- end quote --
The motto of the conference is "Technology for a free world". And yes, HP and IBM are sponsoring this event together, no less.
All weakness is within you, As is all courage.
Windows itself is usually easier to get because it comes with the computer. If you had to install it, it would not be easier or faster.
However that small advantage is completely lost in all the additional software you need: Office suite, a browser that doesn't suck, image manipulation software, packaging software, etc. (all things that are already included in all serious Linux distributions) - and in case of Windows: virus scanners and constant patches.
Here is a nice link to a news site with some status info on Linux adoption within India and current projects planned by India's Government.
United Press International
Here are a few examples of the Linux's increasing popularity in the country. The Indian government is planning a countrywide drive to promote the open source operating system, Linux, as the "platform of choice" instead of "proprietary," read Microsoft, solutions.
The Department of Information Technology has already devised a strategy to introduce Linux as a de facto standard in Ivy-league educational institutions like Indian Institute of Technology, Tata Institute of Fundamental Research and Bhabha Atomic Research Center, through their curriculum that encourages the use of such systems.
The Supreme Court -- India's apex judiciary -- has a few pilot projects underway. So have High Courts in Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh, and the government of West Bengal; the Delhi Road Transport Office has implemented a pilot to examine its viability; and C-DAC, the government's supercomputing arm, has moved lock, stock and barrel to Linux.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
It's true that he was very aware that he was getting free advertising by donating this money - but which would you rather have: MS spending those millions running TV ads and on billboards, or using the money on a good cause?
He may not have 100% selfless motives in this, but that doesn't change the fact that his money is doing good. Think of it as 'ethical advertising'!
Anyway, of all the dodgy business practises that MS gets up to, do you really think giving to charity rates a mention?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
1. If MSFT giving away some software is a "marketing trick", how much more of a marketing trick is it when the Free Software advocates give away an entire OS and suite of applications? What are the FS advocates selling? None other than a public monopoly that perpetuates the production of inferior products, and binds developers to a social contract that prohibits them from choosing the way in which they monetize their work. If they have to have Free Software, let them choose BSD so the developers can have a real choice.
2. Why does the government have to standardize on one set of applications and an OS? At the school I went to, we had MS PCs, Sun clusters, Macintoshes, mainframes, and probably some research machines running obscure stuff that I've never even heard of. An educational system should expose students to what they will see in the real world. Just as these students would be poorer if the only courses were "Microsoft Windows 100, Microsoft Windows 201, .Net 202, etc..." They will also be deprived if the only courses are "Introduction to Unix, The features of Redhat, GNU development tools, etc...".
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Most 'early in' modders are randomly selected (green), and that one would have picked another negative rating tag if it existed, I'm sure. He just wanted to be contrary. Give it a bit and his vote will perhaps be countered and next time he/she will settle down and be a bit more generous :)
Either that, or polite valid posts are not the soup-a-da-day...oh well. Makes no never to me either way. I have a hard enough time justifying myself to me, much less others.
OSS means nothing (and should not) to these people.
You obviously underestimate people who do not fall into your generic stereotypes of "domesticated American idiot".
Jimmy's braces are way more important than some piece of software.
Exactly. This is why her OS software shouldn't have to cost $99, and her Office software shouldn't have to cost $299. $39 is pretty acceptable for an OS, and $59 is pretty acceptable for an Office suite. If there was an open market with competing products, that would have been $300 more dollars for Jimmy's braces.
MORTAR COMBAT!
For the benefit of those who might think that there might be missing digits in the numbers: in India, after the thousand position (3 digits) they are grouped in two's as shown. Here are the powers of 10 as a guide.
10
100
1,000
10,000
1,00,000 (one lakh)
10,00,000
1,00,00,000 (one crore)
And 50 Rupees (INR) is approx. USD 1.
Jimmy's orthodontist uses a closed-source OS in the office for everything. This closed-source OS has a security hole. Not only that, but it's a known security hole that the company decided wasn't worth fixing. So even though the computer is regularly auto-updated, this hole remains unpatched because the corporation decided not to. The orthodontist's computer is broken in to and Sally's credit card information is stolen, and all the billing records for the orthodontist is stolen. This causes incredible headache for Sally over the next year or more.
We don't all have to be programmers to benefit from freedoms. We don't all have to be writers to benefit from freedom of speech, because we can all read what others have written and learn from it. We don't all have to be recluses to benefit from a right to privacy. Freedoms benefit you in more ways than you can realize, and it is a sign of enslavement when you're willing to sacrifice them for nothing.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
What it all boils down to is that no one wants a global monopolist and foriegn nationals forcing propeitary software dependence down thier throat...even when MS is trying give away windows. Meanwhile here in the US, the Bush Republicans are actively helping MS shove their PC dictatorship down americans throats....so much for liberty and justice for all. MS knows it really can't compete with linux, and it shows with Palladium. It feels like the IT business is going back in time.. not forward, when will people realize that the MS monopoly does not nothing for innovation and no good for IT business in general?
"You helped our nation celebrate its bicentennial in 17 -- 1976." --George W. Bush, to Queen Elizabeth, Wash
USA coders (they are not the only people going OSS, anyway) do OSS dev for the fun of it. Indian coders do whatever they do for a living. Not always but true most of the time. The irony might be true in a sense but it is nevertheless a knee-jerk reaction and parochial.
Science as a way of life.
swatantryam
Something like this?
William Ernest Henley. 1849-1903
7. Invictus
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
Windows is practically free over there
It's pretty well free for non-profit organisations too, at least in Europe: the price of a charity licence for W2K server in the UK is comparable to that of a boxed Redhat distro
And if MS reduced their profit margins from 85% to, say 10%, as many people have suggested they should in the last couple of weeks, MS Office would be cheaper than a boxed copy of Star Office and Windows XP would cost peanuts. At which point the price argument for Open Source would all but evaporate.
Virtually serving coffee
Is that your view of anyone who does not know how to write a C++ function?
Quite the contrary. The parent post to mine simply stated that people in general do not care about the supposed benefits of OSS.
There is a difference between not being a C++ programmer and being an apathetic consumer of goods.
Oh, the cost of Windows comes around to $34
I put together a system for my brother this year, Windows XP Home cost $99.
By the way, how much would it cost me to purchase one year of Linux technical support?
I have never said Linux was easy to use, or cheaper. You must be thinking of someone else.
You are one sad person, if that's the case. There's more to life than programming lamguages, man.
Pretty happy, actually. Brilliant, beautiful wife, new car), new house, good job, plenty of friends, family doesn't hate me. I have a haircut and I shave. Don't confuse me with a Linux zealot. I use IE and Windows 2000 Professional at work and at home. I also use FreeBSD over Solaris, PHP over ASP, JBoss over Weblogic, etc. I pick and choose between vendors when I can, but for a desktop OS, there is no other viable choice. In 10 years, maybe there will be, as long as we're not idiots and lock ourselves into something, that is the ENTIRE point of this discussion.
Go away, elitist-wannabe.
I'm not elitist, and I don't want to be. But the next time I buy a computer for a friend of familiy member I would rather not pay $99 for a $39 piece of software. That's $60 more bucks to spend on a bigger monitor, faster shipping, more games, etc.
There is a reason that Microsoft can charge the extra money over what it should cost. The movements in Peru and India are about restoring sanity, so there can be 3 or 4 desktop OS to choose from in the $39-$59 range, instead of 1 OS to "choose" from at $99.
They are not really about "choosing Linux", at least I hope not. I work with computers for a living, and I am not using a Linux desktop. They are about "getting a choice in 10 years".
MORTAR COMBAT!
Once other countries see that threating to use linux gives better prices it will become common. I find it hilarious that Microsoft has to pay some people to use their software. I really hope some western countries uses this extortion scheme too.
Considering that MS has an 80% profit margin i assume that many buisinesses will have a field day the next time licenses are discussed. Now they are certain about being screwed royally by the rim mastah.
HTTP/1.1 400
And so on. I'm no great fan of MS, but I do sometimes wonder if there is anything they could do that would please their detractors, short of shutting up shop and giving the proceeds to Richard Stallman.
Virtually serving coffee
I think the last people who will catch on will be the people of the U.S.A. I am a U.S. citizen and it just makes me crazy that people still think computers are expected to crash and "reboot" is how to fix your problems.
Reading the letter, it appears that the commas have something to do with the denominations of currency used - in this case it appears to be 74 (somethings) and 10 (something elses).
;-)
Although the valuation of their currency on the international market is a little disconcerting. In Indonesia, there is presently about 10,000 rupiah to the US dollar. So when you're reading the paper and they're casually dropping trillion-rupiah figures it causes a bit of confusion
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
Well, Indians have known to be logical and scientific. They contributed the number "0" (zero) to the world of mathematics (and i don't mean zock). The "jantarmantar" which looks like a child's playpark is actually a lifesize astronomical observatory. So why not software? India claims its population is its weakness.. I say , exploit it, it can be India's strength too. If Linux is attacked at such young an age, it won't be non user friendly anymore.... yah.. we'll have a few million plus geeks in a matter of a few years ;)
|/________
|\A|ALYS|
Definately not as important as a senator's memo if it was written by members a LUG. I do not in my wildest dreams want to undermine the authors, but would be good to know who they were.
.. don't mean to sound too negative, but there is a long way to go before a nationally important figure comes out and pens a memo as eloquent as the Peruvian Senator. On yeah.. in other news the Indian Prime Minister has switched to using a BMW as his primary mode of transport. :)
I do belive Linux will be one of the mainstream operating systems in India, but not until the govt cracks down hard on piracy. Not until security becomes a major issue (I'm still getting virii on an email address I used 2 years ago to email people who visit one of my websites). Not until a major vendor in India goes all out to support Linux and shows a significant cost differential on the purchase of a PC. Not until a major SI (Tata, HCL etc) comes out with a authorative study which shows a significant difference in TCO. Not until Indian programmers from the SI start contributing to the various OSS development efforts.
Oops
This is the main failing of the OSS community. They all think that EVERYONE in the world is a coder.
I don't think so.
It would be far more correct to say that the main failing of the closed source "community" is that they treat EVERYONE in the world as a consumer.
"Don't create products! That's what we're here for. You want a custom program? Here's Visual Basic, where you can draw and design your GUI and cobble it together from custom parts that we build for you. That'll be $1,079 thank-you. [cha-ching!]
"Oh, I see you've developed the next-big-thing using the tools we sold you? And you're selling it to other people? Here, allow us to
(a) Create an identical product and undercut your price
(b) Buy you out
(c) Claim patent on your idea and shut you down.
(d) Change our API to break your code"
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more, Or close the wall up with our American dead!
What is at stake here is the quality of the education and freedom from monopolies. In my university days (Norwegian Institute of Technology, Trondheim), we did use some proprietary software (namely SunOS and Ingres), but there was no mention of these in the curriculum. The courses were named "Compiler Technology", "Programming Languages", "Operating Systems", "Algorithms & Data structures", "Database Systems" etc.; not "Using M$ Visual C++", ".Net Web Services", "Optimizing M$ SQL Server" etc. Not once were we forced to study or use software of any given brand. Seeing how some other educational institutions are tied in to specific brands and vendors, and how this affects the quality of the education, startles me. They no longer teach IT in general; they teach "Using ". Kerala; you cannot afford to fall in this trap !!
"And you are dying so slowly, you believe to be living" - Bertrand Besigye
Why would you want to kill off a market for software companies to code for and sell products? Is this what open source is all about, destroying markets? There's only so much service business around, you gotta have products too.
It's about raising the bar. The basic Office type package has been around for years, and does essentially what most people want. There is no reason why a basically stagnant product line should be a multi billion profit centre.
Really, the most interesting thing happening in Office packages is that we may get back to some sort of sensible standard exchange format. But MS aren't interested in that, so I'm not interested in their product.
Okay, I'm laying claim to this one since I made it up, along with the Scotch and Vanilla Coke beverage at the bar.
Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
I agree, it doesn't rate a mention. Too bad it made headlines around the world. As far as how the money was spent, MS can afford both, so I fail to see your point.
"But Doctor, why can't I have the treatment I need today?" "I'm very sorry Sir, but until the press conference occurs next month, we aren't allowed to release or discuss the funds needed for your treatment...you'll just have to hang on for a little longer..."
You don't happen to actually have any sick friends in India, I suppose? Let's pray everyone gets the care they need, in any case.
This is the main failing of the OSS community. They all think that EVERYONE in the world is a coder.
I know I shouldn't respond to AC trolls like this, but I just can't stand it.
Free as in freedom resonates with the non-hacker when they begin to understand things like the M$ OEM license scheme that says even though they paid $300 for the M$ Office upgrade on their last Dell, they cannot move it to their new one when they move the old one into the family room where the kids are going to use it for sending each other rude email.
Free as in Freedom makes sense to Sally and Bob suburbanite when they can't find the 24 digit product key for Quicken 97 or whatever and their $99 investment doesnt' even make a good coaster because there's a hole in the middle of it.
A lot of the things that are "wrong" with free software as it stands are simply due to the fact that we are on the outside looking in. When GeForce is forced by the market to festoon their shrink-wrapped boxes with "LINUX Ready", then Sally doesn't have to write a driver fo the new GeForce card. IF John the accountant would check his books, he would see a lot of his profit being siphoned off by Redmond, and he might find that paying one of his IT people to help fix up OPenExcel will benefit both his company and all the other companies in the world (except M$, of course) by freeing them from recurring software subscription fees. Free as in freedom means that the when you pay for software and upgrades and support is up to the accountant, not M$.
Send lawyers, guns, and money. Dad, get me out of this.
since it gave up looking towards India as a market. The real value of India to MS is its developers. India holds 10% of the worldwide software force. That's the reason why you can still go to the streets and pick up any software for $2. If MS clamps down on that, Linux gets the boost.
Actually, MS is rated #10 in the corporate world, when you compare the amounts given out annually, versus corporate worth. It may seem like he's giving out more when the amounts are listed alone, but when the value of the other corporations in the top ten are considered, MS/Gates is late to the party, with day old bread. Dollar for dollar...net worth for net worth...corporate earnings for corporate earnings, Gates is far behind Ellison, Bezos and McNealy...and me. Why is that? Why do you want to front row the man when he's Malcolm in the middle?
Your glowing admiration reflects a misplaced love for the guy. My lack of admiration reflects the statistics. If he gave (even only) in equal amounts to the others, I'd be the first to pin a medal on him. If he donated the same percentage of his worth as the others and/or as you or I, he'd get more publicity than he could ever buy. He doesn't, and that's a shame as well.
Your claim that I disdain his charity is twisting the conversation. I disdain his methods and motives...scorn hasn't been displayed yet. I never claimed his charitable sums, in any form, are a bad thing. Give us both credit and stay on topic, please.
From an article on this subject at Salon...
"Microsoft gives, but increasingly with an eye fixed on what it will get in return. Andrew Carnegie supported libraries, too, but unlike Microsoft, he didn't fill the shelves with Carnegie-compatible books designed to create a pool of future Carnegie customers, nor did he view philanthropy as a strategic tool in accumulating more wealth. Microsoft may have learned the value of giving, but not what it means to be truly generous. "
I see, if someone has more money than me, then I am not allowed to criticize them?
Infuriate left and right
I never said Linda was Bill's wife :)
...on a one horse open sleigh...yadatada batadatata Ho!
[this is so much fun...put more fish in the barrel while I reload, and then go clean this one for dinner. We'll need a lot more if they're anything like this one...all bones]
The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (which is what gave the money to the AIDS institute in India) is the largest charitable body in the US with an endowment of $24bn. I would claim that this foundation (which is basically setup with his - not Microsoft's money) is worthy of some respect.
I don't personally care whether this money is given so he can get his name remembered, because he's got so much money he doesn't know what to do with it, or because he's a genuine good guy. (In fact, as with most human motives, I guess the answer to 'why?' is 'all of the above'.)
As to charity direct from Microsoft - I would share you suspicion that the main reason for it is to benefit Microsoft (any benefit to the recipient is incidental).
In this case, I feel you're right to show some scepticism as to how altruistic this donation is - and agree with you that the amount of publicity he got for Microsoft as a result was disproportionate. But doesn't that mean we should be criticising the media rather than him?
That's a good question. But the media reports the news, they don't make it :)
I just can't see this happening, with Gates being painted as an innocent victim of the press (and the press saying the public gets what the public wants). He posed for photos, and attended public galas and discussed MS business. He didn't sneak in and try to leave a personal blank check...this goes back to my contention that these things are normally quiet affairs, and this one was far from quiet. India one week and Comdex the next. I'd love to feel different, and I'm inclined to let you sway me, but how else can this be characterized? Help me out.
How can anyone not link Bill Gates with MS? If he valued his phylanthropy and what it will mean to his reputation generations from now, he'd work harder to distance his charity from photo ops and software deals. I didn't link him...he manages to fuse the impression all on his own.
And yes, for the record, I applaud the Foundation. But again, I'm not the one taking advantage of what it may currently represent when there is an opportunity to line the corporate coffers. The impression is less than favorable.
"These people"?
I agree. The sophistication of these savages is impressive. Who would have thought that they can look beyond the dazzling glass beads and intoxicating liquor that Gates and Co. are offering to realize the long term business and economic implications fully getting in bed with Microsoft.
These new "Super Indians" are going to be a lot harder to herd onto a reservation than the ones we had to deal with in the past. Why, they may even be almost as smart at the White Man, and just as cunning!
Bring out the phrenologists! We must study the size and shapes of their skulls!
---anactofgod---
"Equal opportunity swindling - *that* is the true test of a sustainable democracy."
That's a good question. But the media reports the news, they don't make it :)
:)
... and so I try to extend him the same courtesy.
:)
I do honestly think the media should bear a large part of the blame - they're in love with the 'personalities' of the industry, and as a result do too much parroting of press releases, and not enough investigative journalism. (A bit of a tangent, but you can trace some blame for Enron/Worldcom to the fact that noone was asking the hard questions earlier)
He didn't sneak in and try to leave a personal blank check...this goes back to my contention that these things are normally quiet affairs, and this one was far from quiet. India one week and Comdex the next. I'd love to feel different, and I'm inclined to let you sway me, but how else can this be characterized?
OK, I'll try - i'll admit it's not easy
He had 2 reasons to visit: 1 was as head of Microsoft which was doing it's drug-pusher charity act of donating $$$s worth of MS software to schools. Helps India's IT industry, but helps MS more; fair business practise, but a long way from altruistic charity.
The 2nd reason was to donate to the AIDS foundation. This was done as himself.
Now obviously, whatever's good for Bill is good for MS, and I don't doubt MS benfited from the donation. However consider the other side of the coin; here we have the richest man in the world visiting one of the poorest countries in the world - should he confine himself 100% to business or should he take the chance to do some good as well?
As a businessman he's a ruthless bastard, but as a person he (IMHO) has as much compassion as anyone, and more ability to do something about it. He knows he's in a unique position (probably in world history) to do something which will really help a huge number of people - without having to give up a single one of his Lear jets.
So my rule of thumb is: anything he does personally (for his foundation) he's innocent (more than innocent, a genuinely good guy) until proven guilty. Anything he does for MS he's guilty (as hell) until proven innocent.
Incidentally, I heard him speak in Comdex, and he didn't mention once (or make a reference to) his charity or trip to India. I think he really does make an effort to separate his two activities
P.S. All this defending of Bill Gates has made me feel dirty - I need a shower
I work at Grand Rapids Community College, and I have to say that most of the people I've met here are from India have better grammar than any American I knew in high school.
Think about it, an Indian, after three years of English courses, speaks better English than an American who spends their entire life in an English-speaking environment, and who is required to take four years of English courses in secondary school.
I'm not a purist, but I find that a nation that spawned at least one language ("Ebonics," which is officially recognized. Yooperspeak is similar, but not recognized.) needs youth with better language skills, especially in an age with international cooperation (read, "open-source development") reaching a crescendo.
What's this Submit thingy do?
Oh, the cost of Windows comes around to $34, which is a typical license fee Dell pays to install it. By the way, how much would it cost me to purchase one year of Linux technical support?
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Buying Windows doesn't mean you have technical support. If you purchased a Dell with Windows on it, you have technical support for a certain alloted amount of time from the manufacturer, as is right. It's also the case if you purchase a computer with Linux on it, or a Redhat/Mandrake/Suse/insert-your-favourite-boxed-
Technical Support costs if you pick up Linux or Windows from the store:
Windows XP: $245/Per incident (or you can get a package, but the price is still high) or the online technical support for $99/Per incident.
Information taken from: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh
Redhat:
If you go beyond the timeframe of the technical support that comes with the box set, you can use the "support on demand" for $40/per incident.
(information from Redhat salesperson on telephone)
Mandrake:
Phone support after your tech support is up that came with the box-set: $50/per incident.
Information from http://new.mandrakestore.com/mdksa/index.php?LANG
Suse:
Phone support after your tech support is up that comes with the box-set: $39/Per incident.
Information from http://www.suse.com/us/private/support/private_su
Lycoris: (for completeness)
You can pick up a Lycoris/LX License Certificate for $24.95 which entitles you to their normal technical support for 60 days via email. ( I couldn't find anything in regards to Phone support from them)
Information from http://www.lycoris.com/support/
End result: You don't have to be a coder to get advantages out of Linux. It's just one of those freedoms that you can have when you choose it. (without spending $200+ for the coding environment)
I for one haven't coded in C or C++ to make anything on my system in years. (and that was just for fun) I do however do scripting, but that's only to create my own custom stuff, and I'm picky as hell about that.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Hence, it is essential that software to be used in schools are made available under a license which incorporates freedom of use.
I'll be filing this one away for my next M$ argument. I can't think of a way this could be put more clearly.
It is therefore a prerequisite of free and unhindered computerised communication between humans that computers understand languages 'spoken' by each other.
As an American, proud our legacy of freedom, this point and the conclusions the author draws in following discussion carries a chilling judgement of what we are becoming. If electronic communication is as important to free speech as the document suggests, then the DMCA puts us well ahead of the Victorian British Empire in having corrupted our history of liberty.
Hey cool, I've got a new OSS slogan:
free as in 'swatantryam' - not 'soujanyam'
Beer seems to be 'saraba' (I can't find a hindi-english translator), so the Indians either have more useful words to describe freedom, or a different way of expressing the idea idiomatically.
I rather hope the latter, otherwise our idiom (speech not beer) is probably funny as hell.
Gotta love those "grass root advocacy" attempts.
Your Servant, B. Baggins
Did anyone else read the document and hear Apu's voice?
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
You're deeply, deeply confused.
/., such as when a Maine (I think, too lazy to Google right now) school district used the $1M donation from the Gates Foundation to buy Macintosh laptops.
Bill Gates cannot donate copies of MS Windows or Office. Microsoft's EULA prevents that.
MS can, but MS has no ties to the Gates Foundation.
Bill Gates has funded the Gates Foundation to the tune of $21B+ -- largely by giving the foundation shares of MSFT which are then converted into cash. This minimizes the tax liability for everyone involved, since a charitable donation of stock has its value "reset" by donating - even if he paid $0.0000001/share for the stock the Gates Foundation can turn around and sell it at full price and not have any tax liability. Bill can also write off the donation at the difference between the face value and the paid value (essentially the face value). Of course, there are limits to charitable deductions and you kinda blow them by giving that much.
The Gates foundation has not put strings like you suggest on the money donated, at least not to my knowledge (and I very well could be wrong). Hell, there have been stories about it here on
What MS does with it's charitable donations is a whole different matter - in their case I agree with your points. But MS != Gates Foundation.
You are correct; I am incorrect. My mistake was in not paying attention. In all cases I could find in which the B&MGF provided funding for technology infrastructure, MS provided the software gratis.
I did not mean to suggest the B&MGF put strings on the money donated; my point was based on an incorrect recollection of an article in Salon about the way BG counted software donations at face value, though it cost him essentially nothing.
In reality, it was Microsoft, and not BG, who does that. So, since they take tax writeoffs on "donated" software, they are able to increase profits while increasing market penetration in organisations who would otherwise have to pirate their copies of the software.
Sorry about that. Shooting from the hip can sometimes cause you to shoot yourself in the foot.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Before you go on to annoint Bill GAtes as a saint keep in mind that the stock Gates is giving away cost him NOTHING. That's right the stock cost him zero dollars.
He is not giving away money he is giving away potential future income if he was to ever sell that stock.
That is not to say that the stock is worthless just that Bill Gates did not pay money for it so it really does not hurt him at all.
War is necrophilia.
Another example, perhaps more trite, is the ability to eat all the food you buy. Suppose you buy a package of cookies, but weren't allowed to eat them all. Or a loaf of bread where you couldn't eat every piece. Perhaps in addition you couldn't toast the bread. This sounds absurd, but that's because you expect these things when you buy your food. It's yours to do what you want with it.
That's how software should be too for a lot of us. The idea of placing the current restrictions on it becomes so absurd that it isn't outlawed so much as it is unheard of. Yes, it's idealistic, but that doesn't mean it's unthinkable, nor does it mean that it's not something worth working towards. One day, maybe the company that sells the cancer-diagnosis software wouldn't even think to consider selling it as a closed product any more than Nabisco wouldn't think to not let you dunk your Nilla Wafers in milk.
This might sound like it's backing up the idea of restricting closed source software, but it's not, and it's a subtle point that's very difficult to grasp and even more difficult for me to impart. Sure, bread companies could try and sell you food that you were only allowed to do limited things with, no one is restricting it or outlawing it. But it's absurd. By that same token, no one is really talking about outlawing closed software, but by the same idea it shouldn't really be considered by anyone.
So ultimately, it really is about broadening freedoms for everyone. It's not to say "You can't use this program". It's to say "Why isn't this program free too? Why shouldn't this program be free?" You, of course, are free to do whatever you want, as am I. I can't stop you, nor would I really care to try. That's what freedom is really all about and you can use it how you will. If it came down to it, of course I'd ask for the closed-source software cancer scan. Simply choosing to use non-free software doesn't negate the ability to choose Free software, nor does it truly compromise the ideal. A good example of this is the GNU tools, which were written and run primarily non-free systems until Linux came along. Choosing to use closed software doesn't mean that you've compromised your ideals, it simply means that the goal of eradicating the idea of closed software hasn't been reached yet. Maybe John's great-great-grandkids will see it, who knows? I say it's better to dream than to scoff and remain stagnant in the name of pragmatism.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
I'll answer the questions, but I don't hold out much hope of you reading the answers any more carefully than my previous postings.
Obscene profits during a recession.
So, for about the fifth time, what would you like them to do about it? They could drop their margins to, say, 10%, but MS Office for $30 would wipe out Corel and every other WP manufacturer in a matter of months. They would increase their market share from 90% to 99%, and still make a profit. Apart from that, what would you like them to do? Just refuse to sell the software to people who want to buy it?
Charging nought to put a competitor out of business.
So we are against free software? Does /. really want to pursue this argument? How many posts have I read in the last month about how free software is going to put MS out of business? Where is the moral difference?
Deviating from previous file formats
This is hardly new or exclusive to Microsoft. Netscape invented the DIY standards game in browsers. The WINE Linux version of WP will not read files produced by the native Linux version, and I gather that Open Office 6 files don't load into Star Office 5.2. So should we boycott all these products?
Can MS program?
The answer is obviously yes: otherwise they wouldn't have produced any programs. Whether they are as good at it as they could be is another question, and rather a subjective one. The problem with Outlook Express is not how it is programmed as much as the functionality it offers: if open source email clients ran scripts from emails they would have the same problem. If MS removed that functionality, their product would at a stroke become more secure (and the companies who use that functionality for legitimate purposes would be mad).
Conversely, does the Open Source world know anything about frame-based DTP? If so, can you point me to one open source product that can hold a candle to any of a dozen or so commercial products for Windows?
How many bugs?
What was that I saw about 200,000 bugs reported so far in Mozilla, including 30,000 or so which were/are likely to corrupt your data in some circumstances? (Just had to break off from this because a client clicked 'print' in Mozilla and killed her X session...)
An MS paid troll?
Not sure what the working definition of a troll is, but I've been in computing for 25 years and have never once owned a Microsoft product. How many /.ers can say that? I currently earn my living running an all-Linux cybercafe and programming Linux servers. I just don't think that irrational hatred of the competition is a particularly good way to increase your market share.
And, as it happens, I've just ordered my first Microsoft site licence, because I'm fed up with trying to explain to my customers why Star Office keeps screwing up their CVs. It's a funny thing, but most of them don't think that not getting a job is a reasonable price to pay to support the crusade against Microsoft.
Virtually serving coffee