Slashdot Mirror
Does Transfer of MPEG Video Infringe on Acacia Patents?
Spooky Suicide asks: "I own a slightly naughty website that among other things makes 20 some odd videos available for download in MPEG2 and MPEG4 format. I recently received a written letter from Acacia Research telling me my delivery of video is infringing upon some of their patents and I must choose between either licensing their technology or settling this issue in court. I called the EFF who told me they don't specialize in patent issues and don't know what to do next. Obviously, if all video on the web infringes on their patent, you'd think they'd go after the big guys, but they seem to be going after little content providers who can't afford to fight them in court. I can't help but feel like I'm being shaken down by the hi-tech version of Tony Soprano, what should I do? Anyone else dealt with these guys or no of any group of people grouping together to fight this?"
this is where you'll find the best people to fight for more porn on the internet.
slightly naughty
teehee
Anyone else dealt with these guys or no of any group of people grouping together to fight this?"
I shall tell you, after I get an account for your slightly naughty website! ;)
Before you email me, remember: "There is no god!"
Why not convert all your video to an widespread, reasonably open format like DivX (or better the upcoming ogg video format, though i wouldn't think penetration (forgive pun) of client software for that format would be high enough for you) And tell them to go away? It'd be cheaper than fighting a case that you [i]should[/i] win, but might cost you lots. Unless you want to take the risk of a no-win, no-fee lawyer.
You might try contacting the people at http://www.youmaybenext.com/ since they're dealing with the same issue, just a different patent.
0 5/21 21249&tid=155l e.pl?sid=02/10/22/01 5241&tid=155
Slashdot articles on that topic are at
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/11/
and
http://yro.slashdot.org/artic
The fact that none of their patents actually contain the word "Internet" is rather telling, though.
someone please register for 4 bucks as slashdot/slashdot.
1. get a paypal account
2. say youre "fighting the industry blah blah blah"
3. raise lots of money with a "special" section of your website, just for donators.
4. fight the bastards in court
who-ah!
If you can wait a little bit Xiph recon that Ogg Theora will be ready by June 2003.
Beta stuff is already out, but I dont think you want to go into the business of beta testing.
Start one. I have also made three videos (of the non pr0n variety, sorry) and provided them for download. I guess that makes what I'm doing illegal too. This patent stuff is going far beyond ridiculous. The sad part is that this was filed in 1992. I can't even think of any prior art. That doesn't make it valid, but it does make it hard to fight. Jeez.
Random and weird software I've written.
by the hi-tech version of Tony Soprano. Unfortunately, there is little you can do beyond complaining to the various groups keeping track of the abuse of the patent system by IP law scumbags. Pulling all the MPEGs, and quietly finding someone to mirror them in a country not fatally fubar'd by assinine patent law is probably the best you can do.
How does this involve the internet?
Specially if the medium was fiber optic line, or even a tin can down the way.
And its not being recorded on any "video tape".
I'm a big retard who forgot to log out of Slashdot on Mike's computer! LOOK AT ME.
1. He already contacted the EFF.
2. DivX is based on MPEG4.
Error: PANTS NOT FOUND. Press <F1> to continue.
Acacia killed the internet video porn-star.
Buy a Nintendo DS Lite
>First, contact the EFF. They may be willing to help you fight any court battles
:-P
:p
For gods sake, atleast read the NEWSPOST ITSELF!
I called the EFF who told me they don't specialize in patent issues and don't know what to do next.
> Use the DivX [divx.com] codec; it's free to use and produces good output. (Use the free version, not the "Pro"; you won't need the extra features.) Stick a link to DivX's web site on your page.
> I'd also include a note that MPEG isn't friendly, and that Acacia sucks.
Doooh?
And if would have followed one of the relevant links then you'd know that the patents are not talking about MPEG at all, its just the file format he uses.
The patents apply to ANY highly compressed video and or audio signal transmitted over phone/sat/cable.#
.
.
phone/cable/sat:
Does this mean I can give out my porn using wireless? - They will prolly file a patent for that one too!
If they do - point them to this post! I had the idea first - and its obvious!
Before you email me, remember: "There is no god!"
Just ignore the letter. More than likely it is an empty threat. If it isn't, it should be very easily defeated in court simply through prior art. HTTP (I assume that is what you are using to "deliver" the video content) was invented in 1990, two full years before Acacia's first patent.
There is no such problem that cannot be resolved via the proper application of force.
Ask yourself - in all honesty either they are well within their rights to ask you to pay for this technology, or they are well out of line and have no rights to tell you to pay to use this technology.
If they have a legitimate right then back down and pay up.
It they have no legitimate right and they are trying extortion then you are being terrorized and must fight back with overkill. It is the only way to handle terrorists.
Send them a letter that says you feel that this is an act of terrorism and if they to not immediately cease and desist you will take their continued action as positive affirmation that they are terrorists that are terrorizing you, and that you will treat any further terrorist acts with the same vehemont reaction that terrorists deserve.
If they keep it up, burn down their office buildings, find out where they live and burn down their homes, burn down their lawyer's offices and find out where their lawyer lives and burn down his home too. Burn their cars, too.
Fighting terrorism means having the will to do what the other guy won't.
Put up, or shut up.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Ask them to show you the specific patents that you are infringing and which part of the patent that you are infringing on.
Only 'flamers' flame!
X Windows is designed for a clinet* to pull the information to display applications over the network from a server. Some of those applications are video, or video like, and some of those networks use compression.
X is *really* old and has roots to 1984.
*X uses odd client/server terminology. It makse sense in an odd way, but I used the 'traditional' meening here.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
*vehement
And this isn't my idea. These are the words of Sun Tzu. I am just sharing them with you.
Sun Tzu - The Art of War.
Read it.
Know it.
Live it.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
--contact the big guys yourself. If these guys get an court settlement test cases in their favor, it's going to cost a lot of the big guys serious folding money to fight the case themselves. whereas-if you can convince them to help you fight your relatively small case NOW, they can potentially save BIG BUCKS later. That's the best idea I can think of right now. These guys are fishing, but they will start taking people to court, and bet a nickle that they have a tame judge's area picked out where to file in. That's just a logic train, in war, the dude who picks the battle and terrain and goes first has the upper hand right off the bat. I haven't looked at any of the patents yet though, so no idea if their claims have any merit, but potentially this is bigger than the e-commerce patent fights if what they say is true. Just think of real player and quicktime and windows media player stuff, it would appear that all of those efforts are in violation potentially. I mean, transmitting digital content on wires? Say whut? That's a very, very broad avenue for "the internet". You might have difficulty though seeing as how you have a porn site, could be none of the big guys would want to be seen publically as "in favor of" your ....uhhh... artistic efforts on the net. In that case, seek contributions from like minded webmasters and hosts from this "industry" that will be similarly affected. There's thousands of them, a few bucks apiece donated might be prudent.
I imagine all these parties have employees who read slashdot, so they will see this thread. good luck.
...then RTFP
He already talked to the EFF, and they aren't interested in patent stuff, just copyright.
Also, the patent doesn't apply to just MPEG, it applies to any transmitted video of any format transmitted which allows the recieving party some control over access (pause, fast forward, etc).
In other words, ogg, DivX, Real, whatever are all covered by this patent, as long as they are transmitted using one of the methods described in the patent. Interestingly, it doesn't seem to mention the internet anywhere, but it does mention standard telephone, cable, or satalite. Basically, the only way to win this is to convince a judge that the internet isn't covered by any of those terms.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Ok, so we didn't learn the first time? Well, let's just give this guy some more free advertising.
Ignore it.
Plain and simple.
This is just a letter and nothing more.
If do try to proceed against you, you will win supprot because this affects everything including MS.
But for now, ingore the fuckers. They are wasting your time
Sigs are dangerous coy things
If these seem like the actions of a desperate fc, that's because they are. Shall we all look for our favourite quote? I like "Revenues for the third quarter of 2002 were $179,000 versus $10,831,000 in the comparable 2001 period.", although it does struggle for attention when compared to "The third quarter 2002 net loss from operations was $20,622,000 or $1.05 per share". I note as well that their licence fee income is a glorious $43k for the last quarter. Shit, I know contractors who have made that much.Their assets minus liabilities is somewhere in the region of $56M, although we can safely assume a lot of those assets aren't going to be cash in the bank.
Anyway, so it's not me getting the legal hassles, but I say stall the bastards. If you can stall for six months or so they'll just disappear off the radar. Either that or Apple, Real or Microsoft will walk round with the big stick and knock them off the radar.
Best of luck,
Dave
BTW, how much are they looking for?
I write a blog now, you should be afraid.
And the first thing you do is contact the EFF, and THEN you contact Slashdot. When is your lawyer getting a call, after your thrown in jail?
Isnt a patent void when you dont try to enforce it
When I looked at the url, of that linked site I knew we had already given this site free advertisement on slashdot. I didn't bother clicking it again as that's obviously another lame attempt to get the slashdot crowds on their site.
True warriors use the Klingon Google
I'm neither a lawyer, nor well versed in all things computer, but the patent seems to be a patent on Video On Demand. Do websites that host compressed video/audio files violate the terms of the patent? I'd say not - find prior art of compressed audio hosted on the internet.
*** You need a lawyer and a technical expert. ***
Or a wad of cash to buy these folks off.
Personally, I'd get a lawyer. And see if you can talk with someone in the local cable company - by the terms of this patent, all broadcasting stations seem to violate this patent.
Unbelievable, 1) that the poster would ask Slashdot instead of calling a lawyer; and 2) that some Slashdot readers would respond by trying to give legal advice. If you showed up in my office (IAAL) I would charge you a reasonably small sum to write them a letter on lawyer stationery telling them to fsck off or else face a countersuit.
http://www.usvo.com/tech/store_forward.html
Similar patent owned by US Video, filed before Acacia filed theirs.
Just ignore the letter. The majority of the time, organizations who send cease & desist letters *know* that they have no way to enforce their claims, and believe they can do so by scaring off the victim.
Perhaps I'm being quick to judge, but it doesn't sound like they've been on the playing field for long. Their domain name was registered two years ago. Certainly, if this is the case, they were not the first to use digital video on the Internet...
IANAL. However, this patent seems to be overly broad. This could be their downfall. My first piece of advice is to find a patent lawyer. I'd also suggest finding larger companies that offer video for download (e.g. Time Warner). They may be willing to support you.
.Anim file.
My iunqualified reading follows:
"Compressed" is a vague term, but would appear to include any compression algorithm, including LZW, and RLE. These types of file have been around before the first patent was issued - Obviously really. This patent was applied for at a time when video compression was good enough to make this feasable.
It would appear that this would cover any BBS that ever contained an Amiga
The other issue is that this would appear to apply only to broadcast and ordinary telephone services. The internet is not a broadcast technology. It is also not a telephone technology. Even if it was, this patent would appear to be for broadcasting recordable video data.
Mr. SpookySuicide, It has come to our attention that you are making posts on the internet regarding our intellectual property. Please remove all references you have created to Tony Soprano or our legal team will be forced to take action.
would be thrown out of the court. Its like me suing the dog next-door for breathing because I patented respiration. There should be laws against this type of harrassment, that's basically what it is. You should find out if that company is suing other people , band together and sue the company for all their worth, then try and get the judge to make the company all your legal fees because of the absurdness of the law suit, and countersue them for lost wages, punitive damages(I've got stress), and wasting your time.
...the wheel?
"I can't help but feel like I'm being shaken down by the hi-tech version of Tony Soprano, what should I do?"
Use DIVIX! If you only have 20 something odd movies then converting them to DIVIX should not be that hard. Then they won't have a reason to shake you down.
Why DIVIX?1. Codec is distrubuted on many platforms. Linux,Windows,MAC,BE,etc.This should include most of your customers.
PS: I dig the site!2. Easy and quick to install the codec.
3. It's source is open.
I'm surprised you even thought for a minute that this was a real legal threat. That letter isn't even personalized. It's just plain junk mail meant to scare stupid webmasters like you into buying a scam license. Ignore it. Ignore anything that isn't addressed to you or your company by name, and that doesn't directly threaten legal action.
Orange County Business Journal:
p ?m sgid=17134096
Little Acacia's Lawyers Take On Big TV Makers
By ANDREW SIMONS
Engineers rule at most technology companies. At Newport Beach-based Acacia Research Corp., it's lawyers. The legal department at the small patent-holding company pulled in all but a smidgen of Acacia's $24 million in revenue last year.
The team, led by Acacia vice president and general counsel Robert Berman, has made a business out of winning or settling lawsuits against big-name TV makers it accuses of infringing on patents.
Thanks to Acacia's arm-twisting, 13 TV makers have inked licensing pacts with the company in the past year.... (Reg. req.)
http://www.cbjonline.com/index_oc.html
Silicon Investor:
Acacia's growth strategy: Hire more lawyers.
Antitrust watchdogs are busy checking out two partnerships forged by most of the big media companies that plan to sell new video-on-demand services. But the two partnerships, Movies.com and Movielink, might face an even bigger obstacle in Acacia Research, a Newport Beach, Calif. outfit that owns patents on certain technologies that enable digital streaming of music and movies over the Internet and cable television.
"We're doing an analysis to see what companies are infringing [on Acacia's patents], and then putting together a strategy to license our patents to those companies," says Robert Berman, president of Acacia's Media Technologies Group. If deals can't be made, Acacia is prepared to sue, which is how it generated much of its $25.6 million in revenues last year. Acacia has settled lawsuits and cut deals with a dozen TV manufacturers for its patents on television v-chips.
Sound familiar? In the early 20th century Motion Picture Patents Co. held immense sway in the film business until it was busted up by antitrust lawyers. More recently Henry Yuen became a billionaire in part by suing anyone he thought infringed on the patents owned by his interactive TV-guide service, Gemstar. Not only did Acacia purloin a page from Henry Yuen's patent playbook, it also stole three of the Gemstar attorneys, including Roy J. Mankovitz, a former Gemstar board member and lead in-house counsel for patent-licensing strategy.
Perhaps Yuen can sue Berman for infringing on his legal ideas.
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/stocktalk/msg.gs
Very ironic, everyone thinks of you, spooky, as a guy. damn n3rds. want to love to me? :)
Sorry. You're thinking trademark.
A weaker form of the defend-or-lose rule for trademarks applies to patents as well, in the form of "laches". If a patent holder is shown to harm an alleged infringer by delaying legal action, or a patent holder delays legal action by at least six years, then laches kickes in, diluting the patent holder's ability to enforce the patent on alleged infringements that occurred before the filing of a lawsuit. Once laches has kicked in, a patent holder can get an injunction, and that's about it.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Some Australian has patented the wheel.
Will I retire or break 10K?
very
Never fear, even under their patent, you are not at fault. Or at least, that's the way I see it.
The 5 patents presented specify a method by which one would transmit or recieve digital audio or video. Your site is not a method, but a repository... The server itself is the method. It (probably apache or IIS), or rather the makers of the server, are actually liable for this one because they are the ones who produced a method for transmission and playback.
Think of it this way... I patent a method for cleaning a floor by means of sucking dust into a bag. Then, hoover starts making vacuum cleaners and I want to sue. Hoover, the company that made the transgressing product is liable, but the many users out there trying to clean their floors cannot be held liable.
It's like if I had patented a toy which consisted of building objects with joining bricks, and then LEGO started making their toys. I could sue Lego for the transgression, but I would not be able to sue every kid that plays with Lego products.
I must warn that I am not a patent lawyer, just a Comp Sci. student. But I know a fucking scam when I see one.... don't give in. Fight the good fight.
-=-=-=-=-=
I'd rather be flamed than ignored.
-Mpeg (not a good format! cause of patents!)
-Ogg good (free and better, video hopefully better!)
-evil stream law bad
Although eventually someone (Hopefully!) will breakup the monopolistic back scratching.
sounds to me that the fellow who got this letter is not aware of the big boys (tv deals!)
We are a small company looking to stream video of local events in our local municipalities. We where looking for a good open source solution for streaming video and radio. we are shocked to hear this.
What is a good Ogg Linux open source solution?
What is the licensing fees?
We like the idea that Ogg is free and look forward to June 2003 date!
Just take the letter they sent you, replace your name with the name of one of the "Big Guys". Do this for each of a few hundred "Big Guys", and forward all letters to the "Big Guys". That way, they'll be so busy dealing with the "Big Guys" that they'll have no time to deal with you.
Are you the only one who takes junk mail seriously? Does the "BIGGER PENIS IN 12 DAYS GUARANTEED!!!11" actually work?
Or maybe you're really clever and think that this is a good way to get a bunch of lonely geeks to sign up for your website.
It is a good thing you are not a patent attorney
The statue is clear:
35 USC 271 Infringement of a patent
(a)Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.
(b) Whoever actively induces infringement of a patent shall be liable as an infringer.
(c) Whoever offers to sell or sells within the United States or imports into the United States a component of a patented machine, manufacture, combination or composition, or a material or apparatus for use in practicing a patented process, constituting a material part of the invention, knowing the same to be especially made or especially adapted for use in an infringement of such patent, and not a staple article or commodity of commerce suitable for substantial noninfringing use, shall be liable as a contributory infringer.
Also despite your conclusion that these patents cover only methods, READ THE CLAIMS of the patent , they are what control. There are "system" claims which cover the server as well as transmission system claims, so to write that these patents cover only methods show you would never make it as a patent attorney.