Investigating Chronic Wasting Disease

windows writes "The Saint Louis Post-Dispatch has an article in today's newspaper on efforts by many states to test for chronic wasting disease. The disease affects deer and elk, and is similar to Mad Cow Disease in how it destroys brain tissue giving it a spony appearance under a microscope. Due to the rapid spread of the disease recently, most states are enlisting the assistance of hunters to provide brain stems of deer, to test for the disease. The purpose of this study is just to determine how far geographically the disease has spread. It is not yet understood how the disease is spread or if it is a threat to cattle or humans."

Comments

Chronic Wasting Disease

[Anonymous Coward]

I wasted my share of chronic... I never thought it was a disease!!!

Re:Chronic Wasting Disease

[garcia]

that CHRONIC has a slightly different effect...

It eats your brain but makes you fat all at the same time ;)

So

[TheFlu]

They don't know how it's spread or if it will hurt me, but I shouldn't worry about handling items possibly contaminated with the disease? Makes sense...

Re:So

[sickmtbnutcase]

They know it's carried in the brain and tissue of the spinal cord. If you don't cut into the brain or spinal cord when butchering the animals, you have nothing to worry about. You can handle all the meat from the animals that you want with no effects to you at all.

Re:So

[Qzukk]

Well, you turn the deer brainstems over to the government, and eat the rest of the deer. Five years later, some people knock on your door, and when you answer it, they shoot you and take your brainstem. Then they compare the brainstems, and see whether you contracted this disease from eating the deer you killed.

Ten years and millions of government dollars later, they announce their research findings: "While it appears that eating deer infected with Chronic Wasting Disease will not cause you to be infected by the disease, our research indicates that deer hunters are at a high risk of sudden death."

Re:So

[Shalome]

Duh.. They know how prion-based disease is transmitted... it's through consuming the diseased tissues, largely. And in spongiform disorders, this is the brain/spinal cord tissues/fluids, as far as they know
So basically, if you kill a deer that might be diseased, don't use/eat any part of the head.

Re:So

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Yeah, nvCJD is also found in certain organ meats though, spleen, tonsils etc. So you should probably avoid organ meat. But it's a nerve disease, nerves go everywhere in the body, so there's possibly a risk from eating any part of the body; but some parts are far riskier than others.

Still, there's no evidence that this particular disease can be caught by humans, but personally I would minimise my risk, by having the safer cuts of meat, atleast. YMMV.

Re:So

[BandwidthHog]

Seems the researchers are collecting entire heads of deer, and not just brainstems.

Hopefully we won't have a lot of deer hunters erroneously informed by slashdot's misleading summary; asking the public to harvest the brain stems of these animals wouldn't be terribly wise.

Fortunately, this being slashdot, basic demographics ensure that won't be much of a problem.

Re:So

[WolfWithoutAClause]

It's very difficult to prove that the disease is NEVER found in a particular part of the animal; if it was infectious one time in 10,000 you may not find that unless you did tens of thousands of experiments. I don't think that many tests have been performed.

Also the butchering process can spread the infectious material around some, so probably no part of the animal is entirely safe.

Re:So

[crawling_chaos]

Duh.. They know how prion-based disease is transmitted.

Are you suggesting that these deer and elk have turned cannibal? There has to be another method of spread or, as someone else has noted, this may not be prion-based at all.

All that time..

[Anonymous Coward]

..I thought I was wasting away because I sit inside reading Slashdot on lovely sunny Sunday afternoons.

In other news...

[Sirion]

"[CRW] is similar to Mad Cow Disease in how it destroys brain tissue giving it a spony appearance under a microscope."

This just in: researchers have found symptoms of Chronic Wasting Disease in various Slashdot editors. Details at 11.

From the article

[VampireByte]

...has some hunters wondering if the trophy animal they bag could eventually kill them.

Of course they could always mount the head on the wall, then one day while they are standing under it the nail lets loose and the antlers of the trophy runs through their neck.

Greg Egan

[Jhan]

Perhaps one of my favorite SF writers, Bruce Sterling, was closer than I thought...

In "Sacred Cow" he postulated that there was a slower, more insidious form of BSE which only affected humans after decades... Resulting in >80% death tolls in Britain, >60% in the rest of Europe. 50% in the US. 20% in Japan. A modern black plague.

The western world collapses, India, Japan and China rise to control the world.

Re:Greg Egan

[Morf]

The idea that there is a slower more insidious form is very strongly backed by studies of Kuru ( a disease of cannibalistic Fore highlanders in Papua New Guinea).

There were three distinct groups of people who died - people who died in the first wave had one genetic profile, in the middle wave, another , and in the final wave, up to 40 yrs later, a different genetic profile again.

Also, all those who have died from nvCJD thus far have been homozygous for a gene known to give shorter incuation periods for diseases like this (such as Kuru and the heridary forms of CJD and Gerstmann-Streussler-Schinker).

Morf (CJD research geek)

Re:Greg Egan

[giminy]

Thank you Kurt Vonnegut.

Re:Deers?

[sickmtbnutcase]

In Wisconsin we sure as hell care about deer. Not "deers" you bonehead. Deer hunting is a vital part of the economy of many states and important to the culture of the people in these states. Maybe if you lived there you'd understand, so don't go saying nobody cares about deer.

we are too tough...

[shaitand]

We are too effectively battling disease nowdays, so it's targeting animals instead. Good, let the bastards rot. Besides that the deer population is actually higher than it's ever been. They can afford to lose a few.

chronically wasted

[NineNine]

I'm chronically wasted. Does this mean they're gonna have to shoot me and test my brain stem. Geez, I hope not. Or, if it has to happen, I hope they do it when I'm really, really wasted. That way I won't feel it. Just an idea. Dude.

There No Story About World AIDS Day

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet there is a story about disease in deer.

Good job, Slashdot. Good job.

Squeeze my sponge and I'll squeeze yours

[Subcarrier]

They know it's carried in the brain and tissue of the spinal cord. If you don't cut into the brain or spinal cord when butchering the animals, you have nothing to worry about. You can handle all the meat from the animals that you want with no effects to you at all.

So how does it spread, then? The elks rub their brain stems together in the throws of passion?

Re:Squeeze my sponge and I'll squeeze yours

[BlowChunx]

The point that was trying to be made is this: if you don't know how it is spread, you can't possibly say what is (un)safe to do.

It seems likely that the elks don't rub brains in daily life, so handling the brain most likely isn't the vector of infection...

Re:Squeeze my sponge and I'll squeeze yours

[Natalie's Hot Grits]

Assuming when he says "vector" he means "way" of infection, which is a direction, or pathway, then yes, it is a vector. Wether or not the magnitude is 1, 0, or any other number doesn't matter. Even if it has no magnitude (0), it can still be a vector. In one dimension, vectors are represented without direction, only magnitude(or, one might say, it is represented with a direction AND magnitude, if you count the negative sign as direction and magnitude as only positive values).

If the above doesn't convince you, lets look deeper into the problem. The definition of "vector" says...

vector (vek'ter) n.
1. Mathematics.

a. A quantity, such as velocity, completely specified by a magnitude and a direction.
b. A one-dimensional array.
c. An element of a vector space.

2. Pathology. An organism, such as a mosquito or tick, that carries disease-causing microorganisms from one host to another.
3. Genetics. A bacteriophage, plasmid, or other agent that transfers genetic material from one cell to another.
4. A force or influence.
5. A course or direction, as of an airplane.

So definition #5 is one vector without magnitude. But more interestingly, definition #2 is yet another likely meaning for his usage of "vector" in the parent post. Both definitions would be gramatically correct, opposite what you are implying.

Re:Greg Egan (NOT)

[Jhan]

Doh! I changed Egan for Sterling in the text but not in the subject... Time for bed...

Wisconsin has this problem

[McCrapDeluxe]

As mentioned in the article, CWD has recently been found in Wisconsin. It's been all over the news here. Hunter turnout is down 20%, I believe.

Here's one article from the local paper.

Deer Population Control

[dochood]

Deer hunting is the best way to keep the herds thin and help prevent the spread of disease.

Some bunny-huggers out there think they are doing the deer a favor by trying to stop hunting and implementing deer-transfers from heavily human-populated areas, when they may, in fact, be contributing to the problem.

In Missouri, hunters take about 225,000 deer a year out of about 1 million or so. This taking of about one quarter of the herd has helped keep the numbers fairly steady. This steady hunting pressure keeps the herd at sustainable numbers in most areas.

The areas in MO that have the worst deer population problems are around the big cities (St Louis, Kansas City, and Jefferson City). People are constantly running into them with their cars in the suburbs. The conservation department tries to encourage bow hunting around these areas by selling up to 5 $5 "urban archery" permits per hunter. But it's hard to hunt (even bow hunt) where people are too close by, because a lot of city-folks seem to have a negative attitude towards hunting.

dochood
MO Deer Hunter

Re:Deer Population Control

[Shalome]

I agree with you for the most part, but I also would like to say that the "bunny-huggers" don't seem to understand that humans have not only virtually elminated the natural predators of the deer, but we've eliminated their feeding grounds as well. Then people complain on the one hand about the "predatory virulent deer" encroaching on their lovely suburban gardens and freeways, and on the other hand complain about the "bloodthirsty, inhumane hunters" who do no more than their part to keep the population in natural balance as dictated by the conservation society...

As one who lives in metro St. Louis, I understand the dilemma.

Re:Deer Population Control

[bfinuc]

Note that deer populations were never a problem before hunters with guns showed up.

The argument that you should kill deer in order to reduce the occurrence of the disease is rather dubious, not least because it isn't clear that the "disease" is infectuous.

Calling people "bunny huggers" is like tattooing "I'm an asshole" on your forehead. Go ahead, whatever. (Put more philosophically, it reveals your locus of loyalty without materially contributing to the argument.)

The claim that hunting stabilizes the population is invented. In fact you don't know why the population is what it is - and neither do I. One way to test it would be to ban hunting completely for a decade or two and see what happens. None too likely in the near future.

An important fact is that hunting - or something -reduced the population of many species in North America over the last few hundred years.

The claim that hunting "stabilises" something which was in a long term decline and has recently bounced back is sophistry - it presupposes that we all agree that the populations are stable and claims without proof that they would be less so if hunting disappeared.

Of course there are still a lot of other factors involved. I suspect that the spread in marginal wooded areas has a lot to do with the increase in deer population.

The post is a troll.

Re:Deer Population Control

[rodgerd]

Release wolves into the wild again, then. That'll take care of the deer.

Re:Deer Population Control

[rodgerd]

Note that deer populations were never a problem before hunters with guns showed up.

That's an overly broad claim. However, there is likely a correlation between "humans with guns" appearing and "exermination of wolves, mountain lions, bobcats, and other deer predators".

Re:Deer Population Control

[silentbozo]

Well, you could just let them starve to death. Once the population grows large enough, there will be insuffcient forage for them all, resulting in a big die off during the winter, assuming some idiots don't try to prop up their population by dropping bales of hay and putting out deer chow. If they don't want hunters to control the population by culling the herd, nature can do a sufficently through job if left to its own devices.

Re:Deer Population Control

[swillden]

Well, you could just let them starve to death. Once the population grows large enough, there will be insuffcient forage for them all, resulting in a big die off during the winter, assuming some idiots don't try to prop up their population by dropping bales of hay and putting out deer chow. If they don't want hunters to control the population by culling the herd, nature can do a sufficently through job if left to its own devices.

The problem with that approach is that it tends to wipe them out. For example, about 15-20 years ago over half of the deer population of Utah died in one hard winter, in spite of heroic feeding efforts. Without the feeding efforts it's likely the number would have been close to 80%. That wasn't because there were twice as many deer (or 10 times as many) as could be sustained by the land; the excess population was less than 10% (the excess was due changes in Department of Wildlife Resources hunting policies).

See, in a normal winter, the deer are generally eating very low-quality feed by the time spring comes and the snows recede to uncover the leftover grasses. If it's a hard winter, or if the population is too high, they more or less run out of food some time before spring and a portion of the herd will starve. However, if you add a hard winter to overpopulation then the deer will exhaust even the poor food sources (bark and the grass they can dig for) and even the strongest and most able members of the population will be hit hard, and a huge percentage of the herds will die. According to a report I read that extrapolated from the above-mentioned fiascp: 25% overpopulation, six extra weeks of snow and no feeding would cause 95% of the population to die before spring.

That's not all, either. Starving deer do a lot of damage to the forest, chewing all the bark off of trees from ground level up to as high as they can reach (5-6 feet), eating the tips of tree branches and ripping up meadows as they paw at the snow trying to get to what grass lies beneath. This hurts other animals and slows the herds' recovery as well.

Before man got involved, the population didn't get too high because of natural predation (mountain lions, brown bears, the occasional grizzly, coyotes and a few wolves) but those same predators tend to kill a lot of our sheep and cattle, so we've eliminated most of them (I spent a few hours yesterday working on the coyote population). Given the elimination of natural predators, if humans didn't hunt to keep the deer, elk and moose populations within bounds, winter kills would be extremely severe and we'd have far, far fewer of the animals than we do. Wildlife managers try to determine what the optimal average population is and then use hunting to keep the actual population at about 85-90% of that level (as a buffer against hard winters).

It's paradoxical, but true, that without controlled hunting our big game populations would be far, far smaller. Nature would provide her own balance, all right, and that balance would be one of very small, very inbred herds clustered around the few reliable overwinter food sources.

Re:Deer Population Control

[Chagrin]

I agree. Unfortunately, farmers aren't so hot on the idea and regularly pledge to shoot any wolf they see.

Re:Deer Population Control

[rw2]

That's not all, either. Starving deer do a lot of damage to the forest, chewing all the bark off of trees from ground level up to as high as they can reach (5-6 feet), eating the tips of tree branches and ripping up meadows as they paw at the snow trying to get to what grass lies beneath. This hurts other animals and slows the herds' recovery as well.

This is an important point. I have a small farm in the eradication zone in Wisconsin and, despite the seriousness of the questions at hand, would definitely not support this mechanism for getting the herd size down. As it is we have very very few small trees that survive the winter grazing well and end up with a lot of Oak bushses.

Re:Deer Population Control

[SideshowBob]

But it's hard to hunt (even bow hunt) where people are too close by, because a lot of city-folks seem to have a negative attitude towards hunting.

Well, this may have a lot to do with city-folks not wanting people firing weapons near them, in general. Especially camouflaged yahoos whom are occasionally inebriated.

My father in law in Missouri has chronic problems with the local red-necks trespassing on his property to hunt, even going so far as to knock his fence down in order to get their SUVs in and tear up the creek bed that runs through his land. The lazy bastards can't even be bothered to get out on foot to "hunt".

Its also not unheard of for stray bullets to strike residential structures.

These are probably some of the reasons that contribute to folks' unease about hunting near them.

And I would say that calling hunting the "best" way to control wildlife populations is at best a matter of personal opinion. I would much rather have a balanced ecosystem with wild predators rather than relying on extremely undependable human intervention.

Re:Deer Population Control

[Idarubicin]

There was a series of Dilbert strips about this. The "Secretary with a crossbow" was apparently a big hit with underappreciated clerical staff. One of the strips (pardon small errors, this is from memory):

Dilbert: You've been harpooned, sir.

PHB: Yeah, but I capsized her desk.

Re:Deer Population Control

[cornice]

I happen to live where there are plenty of bow hunters (SLC Utah - very urban surrounded by very rural/mountainous). During the bow hunt I have no worries about biking, hiking, etc in the surrounding mountains. During the rifle hunt I stay home.

I also know that some towns in CT (1 hour from NYC) have hired bow hunters to thin herds. In the town that my parents live in _the garden club_ supported this policy. Keep in mind that this town is primarily made up of homes on 1-3 acre wooded lots. You could _not_ safely fire a rifle but the bow hunters have operated without incident.

Bow hunters, in Utah anyway, have to go through some training to get a hunting permit. They also have to spend a lot of time stalking and waiting since they don't have the luxury of shooting some buck on a ridge 1/2 mile away. Bow hunters will rarely take a shot unless it's virtually guaranteed to be a kill. Does this rule out yahoos and morons? No but it should put it into perspective.

Re:Deer Population Control

[cornice]

First, it's not that these populations "bounced back". These populations are, as far as anyone can tell, at an all time high. It's more like an infestation in some locations. Second, your argument is dangerous in that it invites only inaction. "Let's just sit around and study something and see if we really understand it." I see the need for study but a more balanced approach might be more effective.

Re:Deer Population Control

[Anonymous Custard]

there is likely a correlation between "humans with guns" appearing and "exermination of wolves, mountain lions, bobcats, and other deer predators".

Don't forget the non predators, such as the american buffalo, which used to roam in herds before eurpoeans settled in north america, but are now mostly found in zoos, due to their mega-meat-a-liciousness and hungry frontier hunters. This was joked on by the Simpsons.

Re:Great...

[Knunov]

"It's not just for entertainment, they also do it for food."

This reminds me of a discussion I was got in with a friend of mine that hunts for 'sport'. (as if shooting an animal taking a drink of water from 500 yard away with a rifle is 'sport'. jump on a deer's back and snap its neck with your bare hands, THEN you can call it a sport) Anyway, my argument was that eating cow meat was more humane because the animal yielded more meat, and as such, fewer animals had to die to reach the desired meat yield.

"If people aren't supposed to eat animals then why are they made out of meat?"

Humans are also made out of meat. And I *rarely* eat humans. The smell turns me off.

Knunov

Re:Great...

[Cyno01]

I really dont get these eco-wanks who are all against hunting. The reason we have hunting is to fix our mistakes! I know that hunting has become an excuse for hicks to go shoot off their guns, but it does serve a purpose. The deer population needs to be kept in check, theres no argument for that. Years ago we fucked up and removed the natural checks, wolves, mt lions etc for fear of our livestock. The unfortunate consequence was that without predators the deer population exploded. Now we have too many deer, and because of too many deer problems arise, like chronic wasting disease. I think its wrong for hicks to go out and kill things for the sake of killing things, but without them we'd have carcases of starved and diseased deer everywhere, hundreds more (people) would die each year in deer vs car accidents, and our crops would be gone. I live in the middle of metro Milwaukee, i've had a deer in my front yard. Maybe in the deep suberbs, but you shouldn't have deer in your yard in the middle of the city! Hunting is just our way of trying to fix what we screwed up. I dont understand why people think piles of rotting deer carcases along the side of the road are preferable to sharpshooters in helos.

Re:Great...

[wolfgang_spangler]

Well, I'll take a stab at this troll...

Obviously you know nothing about hunting. Most hunters go out to fill their freezer and feed their family.

Hunting is an inexpensive way to feed a family and thin out an overpopulated herd. Why let the deer die of overcrowding and starvation? Overcrowding leads to many types of disease also. I don't know if CWD is due to overcrowding, but it does accelerate it's growth.

Many hunters (myself included) donate meat that won't fit in my freezer to shelters and churches. Solves more than one problem (herd population and feeding hungry).

Also, as any bowhunter knows, deer not far from defenseless.

Stuff that matters?

[Kohath]

It's supposed to be News for Nerds, not News for Herds.

Wrong.

[TheSHAD0W]

It affects the nerve tissue, not necessarily just the central nervous system, and nerves pervade the body. Also, while it only seems to affect nerves, that doesn't mean that a virus or prion that causes it isn't present in other body tissue.

Re:Great...

[Kaboom13]

"Now the rednecks and hillbillies will have a government approved reason for hunting defenseless animals for entertainment."
I am not a hunter, but believe it or not, controlled hunting is neccesary. Most of the natural predators of deer have been killed by humans, because they threaten cattle. Deer are voracious eaters, and without predators to heck their population will decimate their enviroment. Controlled and limited (and legal) hunting is the only way to clean up the mess we made in killing off all the larger predators. Some people enjoy hunting, and often pay for the priviledge. Hunters did not need a goverment approved reason, they already had one. Furthermore, deer are far from defenseless, and in an unarmed fight would probably win against a human. Hunter's use rifles or arrows because thats what we are best at.

Re:Nature way for the NRA

[timeOday]

What, you think the NRA invented the idea of living things eating each other?

I just don't know how to respond to this article.

[t0qer]

So instead of trying to provide some insightful comment built on reason, i'll just go imaginitive and see what I come up with...

I'm guessing that the problem occurs first in domestic livestock then moves it's way down to the wild population. This is a great agurment for natural selection VS. controlled breeding, gene manipulation and cloning.

For whatever reason, us humans have the gall to think we can master in 20 years what took nature millions of years to perfect. Despite natural selection being cruel in both the animal world and human (small geeks get beat up/eat up by jocks) just the fact that it has worked over eons is proof alone that it is far better than any technology we as humans can develop.

I used to tell this story when I got drunk to people, it's funny so laugh..

Why alchohol makes you smarter.
Your brain is like a herd of buffalo. The process of natural selection makes the herd healthier because the wolves will kill the slower buffalo trailing the herd first. By killing off the sick and weak buffalo the herd is left with healthy stock to breed, thus introducing healthier buffalo's into the herd.
Your brain is like that hurd of buffalo when you drink. The alchahol kills off the slow and weak brain cells leaving only the healthy ones to reproduce, thereby making your brain a faster more efficient machine. This is why everybody feels a little stronger when drinking! /end joke
That little joke does have grounding in reality in that the domesticated animals were not bred for diesease resistance or agressiveness, but rather for docileness and meat. This in turn has made them more susceptable to dieseases that their wild cousins would normally laugh off.

Add to that equation the use of antibiotics and steroids in domestic livestock. It's been proven with humans that over time a diesease will mutate where it is no longer killed by an antibody. We then change it a bit, and the diesease mutates yet again. Steroids inhibit the production of white blood cells while strengthening muscles. Steroids don't kill the germ, they just make you feel like you have none. So germs can keep on breeding inside an organism all jacked up on steroids and it wouldn't even know it.

The hugely scarey thing is humans are now *considering* tweaking with our own genes, and despite that 3lb's of grey stuff we got on top of our heads, unless we irraditate the earth (in which case we ruin it) there is no way we are going to be able to stop the googleplex of 1 celled organisms that inhabit this earth from overthrowing us.

I guess the moral i'd like to make to all this is we need to "re-teach" ourselves to live in harmony with nature. Just because you destroy a forest, pave it, and put pavement over it doesn't mean you "conquered" nature. If it's not there how can you say it was conquered??

Just my 2cents.

TSE's are scary stuff.

[rossifer]

Chronic Wasting Disease, Mad Cow Disease, and Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease are all forms of Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies (TSE's) and they really ought to frighten you.

The parts that ought to frighten you don't necessarily seem that bad until all of the factors are taken in at once:

1) total incurability of infected people/animals.

2) near indestructability of prions (1100F for hours, etc.)

3) ability of TSE's to cross species (scrapie in sheep, BSE in cattle, CJD in people, TME in mink, PSE in pigs, etc.) and it's all the same group of diseases. They differ in the speed that they cause damage, but that's about it.

4) The US meat/poultry industry practice of rendering slaughterhouse remains and *DOWNER CATTLE* into feed for other animals and poultry. This rendering process always includes brain and spinal cord tissue in the resulting product.

Basically, if the US meat industry hasn't found BSE in cattle, it's because it doesn't want to. The fact that downer cattle are never checked for BSE should piss just about everyone off. When Dr. Richard Marsh at the University of Wisconsin injected US cattle with TME infected US mink tissues, the cattle didn't act like the British cattle, they simply collapsed, looking like any other downer cow.

The US industry takes those downer cows, never checks to see what might have brought them down, grinds them up, brains and all, and feeds them to chickens, pigs, other cattle.

The scariest part is that slower forms of CJD (the human disease) look exactly like Alzheimer's and other forms of progressive dementia. In a Yale study, 6 of 46 Alzheimer's patients (13%!) were CJD positive at autopsy.

CWD (deer, elk, etc.) is almost certainly picked up from raiding contaminated feed meant for livestock. At least, that's my marginally informed position on the topic. It has to be injested somehow and it's a distorted animal protien so these wild herbivorous animals have to be consuming animal proteins to get sick.

The European Union has now banned all animal products in livestock feed, but the US FDA resists this simple and absolutely necessary step to halt the progress of the perfect pathogen throughout the United States.

An article that does a much better job of describing these problems and substantiating these arguments is at: "mad cows and englishmen". I hope it worries you and that you tell someone else about it. Even better, tell your congresscritter about it and what you think about it.

Regards, Ross

Re:TSE's are scary stuff.

[Turing Machine]

but the US FDA resists this simple and absolutely necessary step to halt the progress of the perfect pathogen throughout the United States.

Err... you're a little behind the times. The FDA banned mammalian protein in livestock feed way back in 1997.

Re:TSE's are scary stuff.

[Turing Machine]

So, you think disinfo.com is a reliable source, do you? Most of us prefer to get our hard news from sites that don't have special "aliens", "conspiracies", "mind control", and "drugs" links in the sidebar.

Re:TSE's are scary stuff.

[OldMiner]

The European Union has now banned all animal products in livestock feed, but the US FDA resists this simple and absolutely necessary step to halt the progress of the perfect pathogen throughout the United States.

Simple economics with a slightly evil twist. Cattle grow faster on a high protein diet -- bone meal -- rendered animals. You force them to eat grain and it costs a lot more money and time to get them large enough to slaughter. That's probably on the order of billions of dollars yearly. There's a lot of lobbying power in that amount of money.

Re:TSE's are scary stuff.

[rodgerd]

I've posted a pointer to the actual regulations further up in the discussion. They have not banned animal protiens in livestock feed, there are plenty of loopholes in the definition - most notably any animal protien which has been prepared for human consumption. Since cooking a meat-on-the-bone meal doesn't kill prion-based illness, you've got a huge infection vector right there.

Re:TSE's are scary stuff.

[Technik~]

2) near indestructability of prions (1100F for hours, etc.)

3) ability of TSE's to cross species (scrapie in sheep, BSE in cattle, CJD in people, TME in mink, PSE in pigs, etc.) and it's all the same group of diseases. They differ in the speed that they cause damage, but that's about it.

I would really like to see something supporting the idea that a protein can survive 1100 degrees F for any amount of time. For comparison- picked up from various web searches- Aluminum melts around 1220F and Zinc at 787F while fiberglass roofing ignites without exposure to flame at around 900F and rigid PVC pipe does so at 850F. The extreme end of thermophilic bacteria is around 113C (235F) so infectious agents surviving intact for extended periods at 1100F more than highly unlikely.
There were studies that found that prions survived 30 minutes at 134C (273F) in an autoclave but later studies found that 138C (280F) with or without a strong alkaline bath disinfected them. It's now part of nursing curriculum: Decontaminating the Indestructible Prion

Anyone interested in the diseases and cross-species aspects might want to read Paul Ewald's Evolution of Infectious Diseases and Plague Time.


- technik

Re:TSE's are scary stuff.

[Idarubicin]

Please, someone mod the parent up. A protein at 1100 F? Boiling off a lot of the bound water associated with most proteins will badly denature them by the time you get up around the 200 F mark. (There are definite exceptions, however--prions possibly included.) In air, I would go so far as to say that any protein will oxidize (if not burst into flame) at 500 F or less. Just having all that thermal energy kicking around will facilitate rapid rearrangements of proteins, even under an inert atmosphere. Sure, prions are harder to inactivate than most other biohazards, but they still obey the laws of physics.

Re:TSE's are scary stuff.

[mesocyclone]

One of the mysteries of TSE's is the survivability of the infectious agent at high temperature and in chemical exposures that should kill all life and denature proteins.

But, it is an established fact.

The 1100 degrees F comes from an experiment that claimed to show that reducing infectious tissue to ash from very high temperature treatment failed to remove infectivity.

In assessing the suitability of a site for landfill, the Environment Agency assumes that incineration inactivates infectivity. Brown et al(1999) however, have shown that hamster TSE infected tissue is not necessarily completely destroyed at 600C. In the Brown experiment, infectivity was destroyed at 1000C. We do not know the minimum time/temperature combination required to ensure infectivity is destroyed.

I believe that the transmission of TSE's via proteins is the mostly accepted hypothesis, good enough to earn Prusiner a Nobel prize. The reason some folks have a problem with the hypothesis is exactly the sort of objection the previous poster made: How can a protein survive those conditions.
However, a lot of research has failed to provide a convincing alternative.

Also, keep in mind that if the infectious agent is a protein in some form, many standard rules of infectious diseases go out the window. Prions are not life forms. They carry no genetic encoding of any sort.

Cross-infectivity of prions has long been an area of active research. In general, TSE's tend to be most infectious within the species they are found. However, most TSE's are transmissible to other species at some dosage and some method of transmission (the best is direct intracranial injection).

One fear with CWD is that it might have a low infectivity to humans - one low enough that it is not yet detectivle, but high enough to cause excess deaths from consumers of venison. I certainly plan to avoid venison (but then I am not a fan of it) and wish I had eaten less beef during my many UK visits. Oh well...

Re:Great...

[wolfgang_spangler]

Maybe you have plenty of resources.

I suggest you take some of your resources down to the local food bank and feed some hungry people.

It is not ineffecient at all to kill a deer and butcher it and eat it. If the deer didn't exist and I had to feed it a ton of food for 2 years before I could slaughter it, then maybe.

On the other hand, I don't eat grass. Deer are very plentiful (very overcrowded), eat grass, and taste great. Venison provides nutrition for humans.

I realize you just have some aversion to killing animals for food, and that is fine. Good for you. But don't spread FUD about eating meat. In moderation (like any food product) it is good for you.

Keep yourself safe.

[quitcherbitchen]

This is a decent article that addresses how to clean a deer with caution and respect to CWD:

Cut with Caution: How to safely field dress deer

The rise of civilization...

[dagg]

... "The deer had been acting strangely, so conservation officers shot it and sent samples of its brain to Galesburg to be tested."

To think, just a few years ago, that sentence would have stopped at "shot it". Now after shooting it, we send it's head to Galesburg. Civilization has come a long way.

Re:The rise of civilization...

[swillden]

To think, just a few years ago, that sentence would have stopped at "shot it". Now after shooting it, we send it's head to Galesburg.

Don't be silly. A few years ago it would not have been shot, it would have been passed over in favor of a healthier animal.

Re:Darwin, anyone?

[fain0v]

I guess hunters will have to start hunting other non-human species like lawyers, politicians and financial advisors.

Class action lawsuit..

[robbo]

Interesting that this is a story today, because yesterday a group of Canadian elk ranchers announced a class action suit against the Canadian gov't for failing to take action against the spread of CWD. More details are here.

Re:Class action lawsuit..

[swb]

Sounds like a pre-emptive strike by ranchers to get better livestock price guarantees if/when their herds are ever ordered destroyed. An Elk farmer in Minnesota had his entire herd destroyed and his compensation was the market value of the animals, which sounds fine, until you find out that the Elk market has gone through some gyrations in the past few years, and Elk prices are way down.

Many ranchers are "stuck" holding a lot of Elk herds that are worth a lot less than when they were bought, meaning that you need to hold them, breed them and sell a lot more Elk to make back your initial investment. If you sue the government now, you might be able to get a negotiated agreement to refund more than the current market price for Elk if they have to wipe out your herd.

On one hand, I feel for the guy who put his whole nut into the "Elk Ranch" concept and is being essentially wiped off the financial map. On the other hand, I can't help think its special-interests-via-the-courts welfare.

FAQ on CWD

[sickmtbnutcase]

WI DNR site has a FAQ and other info on CDW here

Re:Great...

[Cyno01]

IANAMD but i do know that disease spreads where there are to many people too, but the point is, human overpopulation isn't because someone else killed off all our predators.

Spony

[serutan]

Yeah, it's a typo. As in "SponeBob". But before I read the article I did spend a couple fruitless minutes trying to look it up elsewhere on the internet, in a weird spinoff of RTFM. [Slaps forehead]

Great time to be a vegan.

[Mr_Icon]

I was eating my steak, and it was like, "moo," "moo," and then it was, like, half of my brain stem was gone.
And I was like: "Huh?"
It devoured my brain.
It was really a good brain.
It was kind of a... bummer.

Seriously... give this a consideration.

Another reason for genetic engineering

[gelfling]

Yeah that's right. Let's build a better bovine. One that's immune to this shit. And anyone who wants to take their chances out in the woods with fuzzy wuzzies and eating pine nuts can have at it. Just so long as they don't breed or breathe near me.

Re:Another reason for genetic engineering

[gelfling]

No let's breed cows to DRIVE tanks.

Wait a second

[LostCluster]

How can state governments test for Chronic Wasting Disease... I thought most state governments suffered from it!

Re:Great...

[Mr_Icon]

IANAMD but i do know that disease spreads where there are to many people too, but the point is, human overpopulation isn't because someone else killed off all our predators.

No indeed.

Like poor Americans need more to eat

[bfinuc]

I spent some time last summer wandering around Walmart stores in Eastern Kentucky last summer, and I can tell you, poor Americans don't need any more meat, or anything else to eat.

I've spent time in poor Asian countries in my day, and I can assure you - really poor people don't weigh three hundred pounds.

I'm not that old, but I can remember when hillbillies were skinny. Times change.

Re:Like poor Americans need more to eat

[sheldon]

"Eating healthy in America is not cheap."

Naw, it's cheap.

It's just not very tasty.

Ho-Ho's taste better than beans and rice.

Re:In wisconsin...

[Cyno01]

On thursday for hors-duervs my uncle, who bowhunts, real hunting IMO, brought a big hommade venison summer sausage. Even though it was from last years hunt, almost no one touched it. This is really scary stuff, especially since its on the front page of every paper here in wisonsin almost every day.

But AIDS is a World disease

[OldMiner]

AIDS isn't as big of a deal as many other diseases in America. The biggest killer in the U.S. is still heart disease. In this country, it is largely a gay male's disease (woo hoo, that'll get me flamed), and even in that demographic it hasn't caused the kind of decimation it has in demographics like, oh, the whole of South Africa.

Like it or not, the U.S. remains extremely egocentric. This is Slashdot, not the BBC.

Re:But AIDS is a World disease

[tijnbraun]

furthermore since aids is most likely to be transmitted by sexual contact... it has no place in "news for nerds"

Definitly

[Cyno01]

Wisconisn sure does, our state deficit last year was something like $6bil, so now we dont have the cash to research this stuff.

Re:Deers?

[AndroidCat]

Uh, who in the world buys deer, from what I have gathered (Grandfather hunted) deer meat is tough as hell and a bitch to cook.

Well, haven't cooked deer. I'd suggest a strong marinade, maybe even lime juice, spices in a zip-loc bag for a day.

Of course, marinading the chief with something high test always seems to work too. It doesn't have the kick that a good prion protein to the brain-stem does, but it has its charms.

Re:Deers?

[Saxerman]

Deer hunting is a vital part of the economy of many states

I live in Wisconsin and while I do hunt, I don't hunt religiously every year. My family owns our own land to hunt from which provides local property taxes. We bought local supplies to build the cabin and tree stands. We eat out most every night and buy local groceries when we don't. We paid a local company to have a well dug and put in a septic system. We frequent a number of local taverns and spend too much on beer and even more on tips. We've been hunting in the area of a number of years now, and the locals know us all by name.

I didn't go hunting this year.

Re:In wisconsin...

[rodgerd]

Perhaps you ought to take a look at what the rules are on animal feed in the United States. Amongst other things, a cow can be fed food scraps of animal protein - yet cooking does not destory prions, as many people in Europe can tell you.

Re:Wisconsin has this problem - more info

[afrank]

The University of Wisconsin is doing some pretty major research on this topic, and I believe it to be leading research in the field right now. The central location for public information on the topic at the UW is here.

Re:Deers?

[brandorf]

Nobody buys deer, but they do pay to have their kills processed. The state also profits from the sale of Deer Hunting Licenses, and local retailers benefit from the sale of long guns, bows, ammunition, camo/blazewear, tree stands, etc. Hunting equipment is a very profitable industry.

Re:Deers?

[Saxerman]

Uh, who in the world buys deer, from what I have gathered (Grandfather hunted) deer meat is tough as hell and a bitch to cook.

Considering what we spend every year to go hunting versus the amount of meat we actually bring back, it would be a lot cheaper to stay home and buy the finest steak for diner once a week. See my previous post for more details.

My family hunts for more reasons that just the meat. But the meat is part of the culture too. Venison (deer meat) comes in different flavors and textures which depend mostly on if the deer is healthy and eating properly. We make most of our venison into jerky and sausage, but we save the steaks and tenderloins which we eat on special occasions.

Savages such as myself can still take a certain pride in knowing that we have brought food in from out of the wilderness. And that meat we're eating... well, some reason, the deer I shot, tracked, field dressed, dragged out of the woods, and brought home, my venison, tastes better than any steak I've ever had.

Re:Deers?

[swillden]

Venison (deer meat) comes in different flavors and textures which depend mostly on if the deer is healthy and eating properly.

It also depends a lot on what the deer has been eating. That's part of the reason I prefer the archery hunt -- it's earlier in the year when the deer are still eating high mountain meadow grasses. At least my part of the country, by the time the rifle hunt comes around, most of the deer are in the lower country, feeding on sage brush and such.

Re:cough*idiot*cough

[myowntrueself]

Oh I just picked the most tried and tested method.

I'm sure you could come up with more ingeneous ways than eating brains, but hey, eating brains makes you smarter!

rules are rules!

[myowntrueself]

I think that any statement to the effect that

"The official rule is that blarg is not allowed therefore blarg does not happen (on any large or widespread scale)"

should, for any given blarg, be taken with a large pinch of salt (or whatever other white powder you choose).

Re:Great...

[swillden]

Hunting is an inexpensive way to feed a family

I'm a hunter, and I think that hunting is both a worthwhile sport and the best mechanism we have for stabilizing herd sizes and preventing massive winter kills, but I take issue with the statement that hunting is an inexpensive way to feed a family.

Add up everything you spend on gas, food, clothing, hunting and camping equipment. Then figure out how much time you spend hunting and how much money you could have made in that time by working overtime or working a part-time job or a small consulting contract. Then divide that by the pounds of usable meat from an average animal and multiply by the odds of actually taking an animal and you'll almost certainly find that your deer meat is much more expensive than the best steak you can buy at the local grocery store.

Do the same analysis for an elk or moose hunter and the numbers come out a bit better, mainly because the average elk or moose is so much larger than the average deer (and I'm thinking mule deer, not those dog-sized whitetails), but it's still about sport, not food.

justice system a little extreme?

[commodoresloat]

A deer can now get shot simply for acting strangely?

It's that bastard Allan Kieda

[NewtonsLaw]

Yeah, Al Kieda, that notirous terrorist guy has spiked the food chain with horrible prions that will kill all the non Islamics!

But all is not lost -- since these prions are such resiliant substances, maybe we can build jet engines out of them and bomb stupid old Al out of existance.

In other news, doctors have reported a huge increase in the number of people now qualified to seek a presidential candidacy or Senate seat.

They're putting this down to a brain wasting disease too.

Re:Great...

[Nordberg]

Unfortuanately humans don't hunt in the same way most predators do.

Natural predators intentionally single out the elderly, the sick or the young. They thin out the herd in the right way, taking out the weakest link which actually makes the population stronger as a whole. Humans on the other hand tend to go for the strongest, healthiest bucks first. They want trophies, and the tastiest meat. Most hunters wouldn't waste a bullet on a sickly deer, much less want to eat it.

Hunting might keep the nuisance deer out of our yards and off our highways, but it sure as hell isn't helping the deer as much as a healthy wolf or cougar population would.

Re:Great...

[dhogaza]

"eco-wanks" for the most part aren't against hunting. Animal rights advocates are. Just as they're against removing exotic fauna that decimate native flora in National Parks (mountain goats in Olympic NP comes to mind) and various other sane acts supported by serious conservationists ...

Re:Great...

[dhogaza]

Traditionally, controlled hunts have targetted bucks, which does little to control population (hint: deer are polygamous).

Biologists have argued for doe hunts for years, which many hunters resist. Fortunately biologists in some parts of the country, at least, have in recent years becoming somewhat successful in educating the hunting public about the need to reduce the number of does in the population in order to reduce the number of births and therefore the population. This can do a lot to increase the health of individual deer in areas where there are far too many of them.

Yah right

[Hoi Polloi]

They do it for food? By the time you add up the costs of gear, guns, gas and, of course, the beer the average hunter could've driven to any supermarket and bought 10 times as much meat as they get by hunting.

Evidence of Spread to nvCJD to Humans

[MAurelius]

The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel published this story in July about three friends who died. Two died of CJD and one of Pick's disease, which is sometimes hard to distinguish from CJD. The kicker is, these three friends hunted together and ate together at game 'feasts' back in the 1980s and 1990s. The Infectious Disease doc mentioned, Dennis Maki, is very well known and respected in the medical community here in Wisconsin. Here's the link:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/State/jul02/60546.asp

As previous posts have mentioned, prions are nearly indistructible. Multiple cases of human CJD have been proved to be transmitted by surgical instruments that were 'sterilized' by standard techniques after being used on a patient later diagnosed with CJD. My point is: we are well advised to be extremely cautious where potential transmission of prions is at issue.

The previous post regarding 46 brain biopsies of Alzheimer's patients, among which 6 cases were 'positive for CJD' is puzzling. The microscopic look of the two diseases is completely different. CJD brain tissue looks like Swiss cheese under the microscope, while Alzheimer's brains show neurons replaced by 'neurofibrillary tangles.' These look like bits of brown stringy stuff where the neuron body used to be. Clinically, however, the diseases both cause dementia. Normally the time course of CJD, from first symptom to complete dementia, is much shorter (weeks to months) than Alzheimer's (years).

Hope this gives people some things to think about.

Marcus

One problem though...

[Hoi Polloi]

I agree that people screwed things up by eliminating deer's natural predators because Farmer Fred was pissed about losing a few sheep. The problem with hunters though is that they go after the biggest and strongest animals instead of the weak or sick like natural predators do. I figure after a few hundred years of this kind of hunting deer will be the size of dogs and have stubby little antlers.

Venison

[cjsnell]

For those poor Slashdot readers who have never had the chance to taste real venison jerky, let me recommend a site to you: VenisonWorld.com. Venison World is a little store in po-dunk Eden, TX. Eden is out in the middle of nowhere but I used to drive through there several times a year while travelling between home and college. The venison jerky that this place sells is quite pricey but is really out of this world. That Oberto beef jerky for sale at the 7-Eleven can't touch this stuff.

Re:I just don't know how to respond to this articl

[aardvarkjoe]

Yes we would. People reproduce, and will still have stupid populations.

New Plaque Indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

New Plague Indeed.
What many here are joking about is the beginning of a plague like has never been witnessed before.
Initial infections were first noted in New Guinea in the '50's. Called Kuru then it was transmitted as a result cannibalism, (Natives would eat dead relatives) and having 100% mortality. Since that time Scientists have known about prions and the danger they represent but have always maintained prion disease was self-limiting (100% mortality) within one generation.
The problem is the disease just won't go away: Witness England in the 1980's. There, again, it was felt the disease was the result of feeding animal protiens infected with Prion to herbivores. The public response by government officials was the same: destroy infected animals in a big show to convince the public 'something was being done' but in fact the real problem is of course self--limiting (100% mortality). Besides, had not the ignorant British fed animal protein to herbivores nothing would have come of it at all.
Now we enter the 1990's and our old friend is back--only now something very ominous has occurred. You see a Missouri Deer hunter, up until about 1998 or so considered himself lucky if he could get a 'Doe Tag' or a 'Bonus Tag' and thereby legally take more than one deer per season. But now, all of the sudden, all a hunter need do, in Missouri, is simply request a bonus Tag and he will be given one - for a modest fee of course. Now in Missouri no deer Hunter need be lucky to bag all the deer he wants.
What may we infer from all of this?
1) Prion have not gone away.
2) They are not self limiting-but they are 100% fatal.
3) Prions are now in our food chain.
4) No viable explanation has, as yet come forth as to how North American 'wild' herbivores have contracted prion disease.
5) Certain sectors of the Government are more than mildly alarmed hoping the American Deer Hunter will buy them some time to figure what to do. (At what cost to the hunter and his family?)
6) World Health organizations are now holding their collective breath and watching Great Britain for possible massive human prion infections to begin to manifest.

Now for the real Soothsayer of Doom stuff:

Fast forward to the year 2025--England has been quarantined for seven years (nothing goes in nothing goes out) The crematories are running night and day. In Asia mass starvation has begun as prion infection has entered the Piscean as well as other food chains. In Europe and the United State martial law is declared when the lies and dissembling is no longer effective. As the deaths and bodies pile up, diseases thought long dormant receive new life and also join the rampage in an unrelenting slaughter which will leave half to three-quarters of the earths animal life forms dead.
Its already started and nothing is going to stop it-certainly not the Missouri Deer Hunters. ...and if you are one of the few left in 2025 ,not much outside the memory of your own loved ones is going to mean much I would think.

Of course we could agree I am just another raving, lunatic, crackpot soothsayer of doom, forget about all this prion crap and go grab a hamburger at McDonalds :)

Just another Anonymous Coward

In sheep, it's called Scrapie

[octalman]

BSE, or Mad Cow Disease, as the press has dubbed it, appears to have been transferred from sheep to cattle. About twenty-five ago Great Britain began allowing feed processors to use steamed sheep bone meal in cattle feed. BCE began to appear in bovines a few years later.

The disease in sheep is known as scrapie and has been known for around 250 years, according to the U. S. Department of Agriculture. The USDA even has an active program intended to eliminate scrapie. I am not aware of any definite link between scrapie and Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were.

How scrapie was transmitted to elk and deer doesn't seem to be clear, but deer are distant relatives of goats and sheep. It does seems clear that politics is the reason for the name Chronic Wasting Disease, just as the press has insisted on Mad Cow Disease, instead of referring to the true origins of the disease and admitting that it originated in sheep.

Re:In sheep, it's called Scrapie

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Scrapie in sheep does not seem to be transmissable to humans. Scrapie has been in Britain for hundreds of years, and as far as anyone can tell, does not seem to cause disease in humans. However, even if the deer are getting scrapie- that doesn't necessarily mean that humans are in the clear- it looks like the disease can change when it goes via a new animal, and it might then be more infectious. (I think experiments have shown this with prion diseases as a group, although not with scrapie, yet, AFAIK.)

Organophosphates

[Martin S.]

IANA pharmacologist. However Organophosphates is known to leech copper from the brain and replace it with manganese, and represent the most credible explanation for BSE in Cows, Scrapie in Sheep and CJD in people.

Re:Great...

[Blackneto]

There is some problems with your solution on the licenses.
At least here in Illinois we are over populated with deer. so reducing the lisences would not help.
We have longer seasons if you bow hunt or use black powder rifles. I wish they would open up more of that time for regular hunting. Need based would also cut down on the amount of licenses sold.
It would be nice if they changed the licensing so that trophy hunters have a 1/2 limit with a limit of 2 trophies. for every 1 trophy they get they have to get 2 sick/weak ones for conservation purposes. I think a few years of that would bring the animal population to managable size.

No evidence

[Martin S.]

Still, there's no evidence that this particular disease ...

There is NO evidence BSE/CJD is an infectious (#1), and little evidence this/these are even a *disease*. There is masses of evidence that Organophosphates poisoning produces exactly the same symptoms, Brain lesions resulting in Neupathy; by a know process Manganese leeching Copper from the brain. One of the British victims of CJD was vegetarian who had not eaten meat for years, did own cats that where treated with Organophosphates flea treatments.

Re:Nature way for the NRA

[Blackneto]

I don't eat living things.
I make sure they are properly dead first.

BINGO!!

[Insightfill]

Recent autopsies of Alzheimer patients show that ~30% of them exhibit brain matter characteristics consistent with CJD. THe question is: is current US beef already heavily infected with a long-term strain of this condition?

I'll try to find a link later.

Case against Organophosphates.

[Martin S.]

"An Introductory Hypothesis on the causes of the Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies"
http://www.purdeyenvironment.co m/IntroHyp.htm

"Organophosphates Implicated In Mad Cow Disease"
http://www.cqs.com/opmadcow.htm

"Cases of BSE and CJD May be Due to Environmental Contamination with Manganese Compounds and Organophosphates"
http://www.nzhealth.net.nz/dis_ ease/cjd.html

"The nature and cause of BSE
Other theories about the nature and cause of BSE "
http://www.bseinquiry.gov.uk/report/volume2/cha pte a4.htm#820644

"ICI's ex-chemical weapon insecticide causes BSE & CJD Cover-up Insecticide causes Mad Cow disease"
http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/ICI-I nsecticide -Mad-Cow.htm

"A Case for the Role of Copper Deficiency in "Mad-Cow" Disease and Human Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease"
By William H. Dresher, Ph.D., P.E.,Geoffrey Greetham, Ph.D., F.I.M. and Brenda J. Harrison, Ph.D.
http://innovations.copper.org/2001/12/Mad-C ow.html

http://www.treff-raum-espaciotime.com/Articles/m ad cow.html

"Mad Cows or Mad Scientists? Could the Scientists Be Wrong on Madcow Disease?"
http://www.safe2use.com/ca-ipm/01-02-02 a.htm

There are hundreds more similars links on google:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=U TF -8&q=CJD+BSE+O

Hmm...

[Mysticalfruit]

I thought that was you have when you suck at quake...

Re:Deer (and other) studies and the correlation

[chialea]

Err... I wouldn't be so hasty about claiming culinary superiority, there certainly are people who cook around here, and that well.

As for nutrients, I haven't had any problem with my diet, even when training heavily at martial arts, and I'm a vegetarian. Granted, I eat cheese, but that's vegetarian under most definitions (at least the rennet-free stuff).

Lea

Re:Great...

[wolfgang_spangler]

It doesn't have to be expensive. It can be for hunters who buy 40 stupid gadgets every year and don't really know how to hunt however.

I'd take vacation time anyway, and I wouldn't work a second job while I take vacation time. I get paid for my vacation time so there is no loss on salary.

I bowhunt most of the time. While bows are expensive (I bought a new one this year) they last a very long time with proper maintenance.

I eat less while hunting, for 8 of us this year the cost of food for one week was 45 dollars.

I camp with my family, so I already have camping equipment. It's not an extra expense because I would have it even if I didn't hunt.

It's not too hard to process your own deer if you take the time and learn how.

I get about 250-300 pounds of meat per year and spend about 150 dollars. I'm getting a good deal.
Specially cause it's not all hamburger.