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West Virginia Joins Massachusetts in MS Appeal Bid
diwolf writes "West Virginia is seeking to join Massachusetts in appealing a U.S. District Court decision that rejected a tough antitrust remedy sought by nine states in the Microsoft Corp. antitrust case. This is also being reported at CNN and ZDNet."
No FP for you!
is this going to work the second time around?
I was hoping someone else would have some balls. #3? Anyone?
I'm Ignignot and this is Err. We are Mooninites from the innercore of the moon. Our race is hundreds of years beyond yours. Some would say that the earth is our moon, but that would belittle the name of our moon which is the moon.
While I'm not that sure how much good it is going to do, it is good to see them at least continuing the fight. If more states continue to join in on the appeal, it may gain some weight.
West Virginia and the other non-settling states had argued that Microsoft should be required to sell versions of Windows without a Web browser, music player and other software to make room for competing products.
On the other hand though, how hard would it be for Microsoft to just give the option upon install of not installing these components? Would it be worth MS's time and money (in terms of legal costs, etc) to give this option? Though I'm sure they're more than willing to spend the money to keep their products on as many PC's as possible
WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
And I know some people hate it when it happens, but I must point out the obvious spelling error in the title. It's one of the first things a reader sees and shouldn't be there. The word is correctly spelled 'Massachusetts'. Thanks timothy.
the calm before the slashdotting...
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State to appeal MS antitrust ruling
By Joe Wilcox
Special to ZDNet News
December 2, 2002, 4:45 AM PT
Massachusetts officials said Friday they will appeal a recent ruling in Microsoft's long-running antitrust case, while seven other states intend to drop their opposition.
"We are going to appeal," state attorney general Tom Reilly said Friday during a conference call. "This appeal is necessary to protect consumers."
Massachusetts delivered its decision ahead of a Monday deadline. The nine plaintiff states have 30 days from U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly's Oct. 1 ruling to decide whether to file an appeal.
But Massachusetts is not being supported by most of the other states that have previously criticized the settlement as inadequate. "We are going it alone," Reilly said.
The District of Columbia and nine other states--California, Connecticut, Florida, Iowa, Kansas, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Utah and West Virginia--had rejected a November 2001 settlement Microsoft cut with the Justice Department and nine other states.
In a Friday statement, Iowa Attorney General Tom Miller said, "Seven states and the District of Columbia will not appeal Judge Kollar-Kotelly's decree in the Microsoft antitrust case. We will move on to enforcing the decree on behalf of consumers and fair competition.
"For most of our states, it is time to dedicate our resources to enforcement of the decree and the law," Miller said.
West Virginia officials are expected reach a decision on whether to join Massachusetts by Monday.
In making its decision to appeal, Massachusetts is focusing on accountability. Reilly said he wanted to send the message that "breaking the law does not pay."
The Massachusetts attorney general noted that Microsoft had been found guilty of violating U.S. antitrust laws, and he described the remedy and separate settlement as being filled with "loopholes."
A consumer group praised Massachusetts' decision.
"We applaud Attorney General Reilly for deciding to appeal the remedy recently issued in the Microsoft case," the Consumer Federation of America said in statement. "This action seeks to defend critical antitrust principles that were established in the unanimous appeals court ruling that found Microsoft guilty of violating the antitrust laws."
Microsoft spokesman Jim Desler, however, said the company's "focus remains on complying fully with the court's judgment, working collaboratively with governments to address important public-policy issues and on developing innovative products that will benefit consumers."
In separate rulings, Kollar-Kotelly approved the settlement with minor modifications and instituted the revised settlement as her remedy in the plaintiff states' proceeding.
The states had asked the judge to impose a remedy that would affect Microsoft software code, such compelling the company to release a second version of its latest operating system, Windows XP, with so-called middleware removed.
But the judge largely rejected the states' request for stiffer sanctions.
"The decision is a virtual rubber-stamp of the proposed settlement," said Hillard Sterling, an antitrust attorney with Much Shelist in Chicago. "This judge didn't think that more was necessary to preserve competition. She clearly didn't buy the litigating states' premise, that Microsoft was an evil empire that needed to be punished severely."
Legal experts predicted Massachusetts could face tough going, particularly if no other states join in on the appeal.
Bob Lande, an antitrust professor with University of Baltimore Law School described Kollar-Kotelly's decision "virtually appeals proof."
"Our colleagues from Massachusetts are appealing the decision, and we wish them well," Iowa's Miller said. But he agreed with legal experts that "there are serious issues subject to appeal."
But Reilly maintained Massachusetts had no problem with going forward alone. "Microsoft is crushing...innovation," he said. "Without competition our economy has no future. Competition is the key to this case."
Whatever the outcome, the appeal will keep legal pressure on Microsoft at the same time states accepting Kollar-Kotelly's remedy focus on enforcement. Two separate bodies--a technical committee overseeing the settlement and compliance committee over the remedy--will enforce Microsoft's compliance.
"While not completely satisfying, the court decree closed enforcement loopholes, keeps compliance with the remedies squarely before the court and allows us now to turn attention to making sure that Microsoft competes fairly in the marketplace," California Attorney General Bill Lockyear said in a statement.
Miller noted that as a result of the ruling, "Microsoft will pay the States $28.6 million." Additionally, Microsoft also is paying $3.6 that million the States will use for continued enforcement and compliance. The states retain the option of asking the courts for additional enforcement funds."
Meanwhile, the Redmond, Wash.-based company faces other legal challenges. A three-day hearing next week in Baltimore will determine whether Microsoft will be compelled to carry Sun Microsystems' version of the Java Virtual Machine in Windows XP. Sun has filed a request for preliminary injunction on the matter, as part of a larger lawsuit against Microsoft.
Meanwhile, the European Union's Competition Commission is expected to soon issue a preliminary ruling in a separate antitrust investigation pending against Microsoft.
http://www.virtualvillagesquare.com/ Online Communities: The Next Generation
that Microsoft doesn't have them bought. The wheels of justice are too slow and corrupt. I have heard (no proof, just rumour - you guys might know where this was) that GWB specifically ordered the Justice Dept to not seek splitting the company up. If this is true it shows that GWB was bought (he is bad anyways) and that he has far too much power. A president should have nothing to do with the wheels of justice. Justice should also be a lot swifter than this. That Microsoft case should have been over in at least 6 months.
What we see depends on mainly what we look for. -- John Lubbock Now search for that bug slave!
The state of West Virginia was illegally created during the Civil War, and should not exist as its own entity. It should be reunified with the rest of Virgnia as soon as possible. It's the only fair thing to do.
You'd think that Virginia would want a piece of them too...
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
The distingushed people of Mass. with the slack-jawed yokles of W.Va. deciding to continue the lawsuit against M$. Indeed, the apocolypse is coming...
Karma whorin' since 1999
Why? I mean honestly, I live in MA, perhaps we could spend this money you know, paying for the big dig, or putting it back in my pay check. I really don't understand why we are spending money trying to get a verdict that just won't happen. It's clear, MS is above the law. And untill some one either unseats them (GO APPLE AND LINUX) or straps a bomb to their chest and takes out Redmond (come on terrorists help us out here... (kidding, put away your political correctness alarms, I don't care) ).
Are you secure enough in your masculinity to run 'man touch'?
I have to ask: who would actually be interested in pursuing this case?
It is quite clear that there will be no noteworthy changes to the original settlement, so any interested parties (mostly Microsoft's competitors) don't have anything to gain. It is also quite clear that the main loser is going to be the taxpayer. So who is the winner of this case (other than the army of lawyers)?
The answer is that a bunch of people (e.g. the attorney generals of these states) gain some free press and cheap popularity from the ongoing coverage of the case. The important thing to notice is that the case itself is absolutely irrelevant, these people would attach themselves to any other high-profile case just as quickly.
So don't ever think this is about "freedom" or any other nice ideas, it's only about buying votes and personal agendas.
When men used to be men
Its not so much balls as an interest in wasting millions of tax dollars. Please listen carefully, YOU CAN'T BEAT MICROSOFT IN A LAW SUIT. Its just stupid to try, after all, reistance is futile right? I hope the government of this state pays the price next election day for burning cash like this.
And I don't fucking care. This has got to stop. The anti-Microsoft propaganda and complete disregard for any kind of SOCIAL regularity is pissing me off. Get off your high motherfucking horses, stop wanking to fantasies of Bill Gates losing his 'control' over the 'computing regime' (to add a nice little romantic twist to the situation) and fucking get off your dead asses and do something productive.
If instead of wasting time reporting of Microsoft cases, Microsoft this, Microsoft that - you motherfuckers actually did something to HELP your oh so noble goals, perhaps your emotional masturbations wouldn't have to be kept inside your weirdo fantasy world.
Shut the fuck up, and stop with the Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Because I, and I suspect most of the others who frequent this forum, are just about fucking tired of it.
We wave the flag of freedom as we conquer and invade.
This guy offers a very helpful hint to the [paid] editors of a news site which is now partnered with Forbes.com! He offers a helpful suggestion and you moderate him down when it is clearly on-topic! I have been reading this newbie's posts and you jerks did this once before and I reprimanded you then! Look, I may not be the biggest fan of French Canadians but you guys are way too mod-happy.
Of Course, they have confused Free (as is speech) Software with free (as in beer) software, and didn't always realise that Linux is not the only free software out there.
and note: they didn't save the sale for Microsoft.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
.... with Liberty and Justice for....ummmm....
For future reference:
Please use WV when referring to West Virginia. W.Va. has been deprecated, as it makes it seem as if the state is just a section of Virginia.
"Open the pod by doors, Hal" > "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave" sudo "Open the pod bay doors, Hal" > alright
Remember when a decent PC cost at least $4000 (US)? Then came the clones and we were able to get a PC for about $2000. After the clones came into their own, the prices just started free-falling. The reason was that IBM couldn't keep their own monopoly on PCs and charge whatever THEY wanted too - and you can bet that they wanted too! Look at Apple. They had control of everything to do with their machines and they insisted on gouging their customers. It wasn't until recently that they decided to price their machines in line with the rest of their (PC) market. Yes, they have a superior design, blah, blah, blah,... But when it comes down to it, their design wasn't worth the premium that they used to charge - sorry Mac folks.
MS turned the PC market into a commodity market. Since MS wanted to grow/keep their monopoly, they charged pretty damned cheap in my book.
What I'm trying to say is ... here it comes ... that if it weren't for MS, we would still be paying an arm and a leg for PCs.
For the record, I'm a Linux Luver
There is no spoon or sig.
What if the People rose up and filed their own Pro Se suits against Micro$oft? Crash the Courts! Has somebody a website for this yet? Just a thought.
Well... okay. Isn't that what punishing a company and making an effort to restore competition usually does? How can you accomplish those two goals without bring benefit to the competitors?
--
Runnin' around, robbin' banks all whacked on the Scooby Snacks...
Why give up? This is exactly what they want - keep battering for long enough, and cracks will show. A Law Firm here in New Zealand went as far as to lodge a complaint with the Commerce Commission regarding Microsoft's new licensing regime. Although the complaint was rejected, the new scheme has so incensed one of the partners, Craig Horrocks, that he has set up a site here which has a copy of the complaint, an open letter to MS users, and assorted news articles. You can be assured that this law firm is not about to take it lying down, as this site shows.
The Mothership
If you hate Microsoft, and if you use Linux, you need to be locked up at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba along with the other terrorists.
Suing microsoft makes RMS cry.
He's talking about PCs, not Macs, you moron. Stop trolling.
Maybe they should spice it up for sweeps with some guest appearances in the courtroom...maybe Larry Lessig, Steve Jobs, and the perennial courtroom favorite, OJ! :-D
The state I have spent most of my career working in does something right!
If MS has proven anything in the many years of settlements with the DOJ over breaking the law, it's that a settlement with them is as worthless as one with Saddam.
Corporatism != Free Market
Oops, M$ killed them with illegal actions.
Maybe BeOS?
Oops, another product killed by illegal M$ actions.
Maybe we could be Apple and make noises about releasing OS X for x86, but we'd likely get slapped down by M$'s threats of no more Office for Mac.
Then again, maybe we could be like you, go along to get along, take our pissant MCSE certifications! and do like AMD* did and sell our soul, tell the Judge what a great corporate partner Microsoft is, and have them mysteriously select our processor for the next generation XBox.
When all is said and done, I can and do go home every damn day knowing I did everything I could to get my customers the best product I possibly could - and because of that I absolutely minimize the use of Microsoft products. The only time I recommend Microsoft is if my customers can't get good admins and have to rely on drooling morons who can only read a manual if it has color pictures. Heck, they can still hire untrained monkeys to reboot upon BSOD. You don't think the phrase Moron Confused by Sun Equipment came from nowhere, now did you?
Maybe that's why my fucking house is worth damn near seven figures, and you can't make the monthly payments on your five-year-old Passat geekmobile. So who's living in a fantasy world, you misguided twit who's so fucking arrogant that you think is M$'s competitors who engage in FUD?
* IIRC it was AMD. You get my message just the same.
As anyone will tell you... future monetary decisions should not be made based on how much you have already spent.. but only on the business case for moving forwards.
1. M$ is scared shitless of Linux. They have no real strategy to deal with something that even they know is more stable and secure, and know they can't compete on price.
2. Win XP and M$'s licensing went over with customers even worse than what you read - even here. M$ kept a tight lid on how badly Win XP cratered in the corporate world.
3. M$ rank-and-file are a bunch of arrogant asswipes who think big corporations and gov't have no choice but to buy M$
...I'm proud to say I live in Massachusetts!!!
Go Tom Go Tom Go Tom!!!
(and Doug!)
---
Information wants...you to shut your pie hole.
So many say "Why bother? M$ is above the law." What a crock of shit. Even if my tax dollars are going toward a battle which may be lost, I would be more pissed off if there were no appeals, much as I was pissed off about the states who signed the settlement. It is obvious that Bill & Co. think that they are above the law, or rich enough to buy it, so why should we throw our hands up when there is still more that can be done to fight the ruling?
I believe that these states should be congratulated for not stopping. That is what the court of appeals is for. And I hope the other seven decide not to back down either.
but you have to understand the psychology of the zealot. These people are, for the most part, freaks and social outcasts. They have no social self esteem and so their only source is by thinking they are smarter than the rest of the world. So they pick an issue:
in 1990 maybe windows was better than linux or unix or whatever, so lets feel smart by using this *nix operating system and making fun of the M$ windows users.
And that's fine, I mean, you might even be right, maybe your OS is better.
But then windows keeps getting better, oops, it dosn't crash any more, well, we kind of look like idiots now, we're using an inferior OS here, and on top of the fact that we're ugly and social outcasts that dosn't leave many sources of esteem. Oh, oh, i have an idea, we use linux because microsoft is evil and they are a monopoly, and we hate monopolys (even though most of us have never actually had and live in our parents basement and know nothing of economics). Ok, so we use linux because M$ is evil!! Ya, great, we are superior to you stupid normal people!
I've been reading slashdot for about 3 years and I find it sad how as Microsoft gets better and better, the arguments against it become more stupid and illogical. These poor freaks are desperatly trying to hang on to their only source of self esteem, that linux users are better, and if they can't do that from a technical point of view, they'll have to make it a moral one, and slashdot will become a forum for anti MS propaganda. Its sad, but they are sad, the poor zealots, linux is all they have and I feel very sorry for them.
P.S. It kills me that I have to post this anonymously, but I'm a little bit of a karma whore myself. Hey, if we don't have some non-zealots moderating this place will really go to hell right?
Compare WinXP with Win 3.1.
Now compare the progress in price and performance that hard drives, RAM, monitors, CPUs, database software, browsers, word processors (until M$ effectively killed WordPerfect), spreadsheets (until M$ killed Lotus 1-2-3) have made in the same 10 years.
And yet, in the face of all the progress made in the computer industry in those areas with vibrant competition when compared to the absolute stagnation in both price and performance that the arenas monopolized by M$ have shown, we still have fucking morons who think M$ has been good for the computer industry.
Hey, I modded you insightful, even though I know its going to get crushed in the avalanche of trolls and flamebaits. Keep up the good work! Ah fuck, I'm gonna get raped on meta mod arn't I :(
West Virginia has a long history of their population getting dispossessed and sold up the river broke-and-naked by rich out-of-state corporations so this warn't that big a surprise. Microsoft is just like any big coal company looking to take buttloads of money out of West Virginia except Microsoft hasn't started having their opponents murdered... yet. That we know of, anyways.
There is a West Virginia???
PCs didn't really get cheap until the internet boom of the mid-90's. Considering the hottest browser at the time was Netscape, shouldn't they be credited with bringing PCs to the masses and the masses credited with lowering prices through demand?
Just about any OS can run a browser, so what did MS do? I mean other than bundle a free browser with their OS. PCs may be 1/4 the price but Microsoft's software sure isn't.
Sometimes it comes as an apology that's really nothing more than an attempt to label an argument "immoral" or somesuch.
It's a lot easier to say "You misguided fools, I know so much more than you" than it is to refute any argument, isn't it?
Of course, if you argue as eloquently as you post, well, all I have to say is you need some help with grammar and punctuation. We'll leave logic for after your brain has developed.
I can understand Microsoft point of view. The browser is part of the operating system... but with all the talk of Internet security...and crackers primarily targeting Windows systems...Why would they want to keep the browser embedded in Windows? Don't you think that they are loosing a major marketing tactic if they keep stubbornly saying "The browser cannot be unattached"....
Of course the browser can be removed...Anyone involved in developing KNOWS that the browser can be removed.... So is Microsoft just stubborn? Or can't they see the bigger picture?
Dont click that link in the parent. Sick. Please mod down.
please mod down this sicko
I'm a troll, so I don't care about those things.
Yes, I could argue the points of windows vs linux, but that has been done before. For every argument either way, you and I could list the logical fallacies that have been committed and oh what fun we would have. No, I don't really pity the zealots, I feel more of a hatred for them for polluting what could be an interesting forum. I'm wasn't really trying to argue a point with my post, I was just hoping that maybe some of the zealots would read it and realize exactly how bad life is for them, maybe they could seek some professional help or something and then there would be one less zealot in the world. I too took Philosophy 145 (intro to logic, at our school anyway), but often emotionally charged rants can be more effective that logic at persuading people.
I wish I hadnt clicked that link. Ugh. Dont click on it, please just mod down.
Massachusetts is considered a high tech haven, West Virginia a low tech backwater. I wonder what local politics led to these decisions.
Please mod this down. Fortunately I put goatse in my hosts file long ago.
The provision for choice is provided. Microsoft gets to keep the libraries required for third-party support while the applications themselves are "removed" from direct use by the user. In turn OEMs are also permitted to install competing applications. We're back to Dell being allowed to install Netscape. Internet Explorer might still be there, but you don't have to use it. However, WinAmp, which does still rely on various API of Internet Explorer, can still function. Focus on this OEM freedom. It's worth more than a stripped down Windows. It's the road to LILO.
....I can understand Microsoft point of view. The browser is part of the operating system...
Name me one yes ONE OS that "needs" a web-browser and I will show you a POS OS. The OS should be worried about the system not what can connect to the same system or whether it can connect at all.
Windoze is a "decent" attempt at an OS but it is still just another program that makes using computers easier. (please no flames) decent means that probably anybody with an IQ greater than 10 should be able to install/operate without 3 books and a guru on call. WTF is a program that just browses the filesystem/inet. doing being considered as part of the OS??? We have dumbed down the users as "lusers" that think I only need to install/use program X so I too can become a "guru"/"Power user"
There is safety in knowledge or lack of knowledge
if everyone would follow this simple rule...
if you don't know how it works then don't fsck with it!
That probably should go into the lists of things you never learned from you momma/poppa but wished you had.
Bush pardoning a death sentence? Well, that's something you don't see everyday.
That's something you don't see ever. Especially in Texas.
Reality check: No death penalty was in the offing; this isn't even a criminal prosecution; and the only thing really at stake was Bill Gates's shot at becoming the first trillionaire. If Microsoft had been divided into software and OS divisions, does anyone seriously think that either BabySoft would have failed? Or that the quality of their products would have declined? (MS haters: substitute could for would.)
President Bush comes from a political philosophy that is anti-antitrust. It's pretty simple.
We have law makers introducing anti-terorism laws [e.g. patriot act et al.] You have law makers introducing new adjustments to miranda, you have law makers trying to break up a computer firm in a tough economic time.
Are any of these politicians actually working for the good of the public they represent?
Suppose they manage to shut down MS [or severely disrupt it]. What comes of that? 1000s of people lose their jobs.
I've been saying this for a few years now. The best way to "adjust" MSFT "way of business" is to hurt them fairly. Sell a better product. Sure not everyone will jump off the MS boat right away but being impatient and shutting them down via anti-trust is hardly the way to prove a point.
I mean at this stage for the average desktop user the average linux distro is hardly useful. Even RH 8.0 has some severe problems [like installing nvidia drivers can kill your X install just by following the instructions!].
By making MSFT illegal and leaving linux as the only option you'd actually be hurting the industry, not helping it.
When linux distros actually compete with Windows [e.g. in a meaningful sense, having 1500 packages on 3 CD's is not "competition" when installing a GFX driver can kill the install] then we'll see the beginning of the demise of Windows.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Think you got that one backwards chief. :)
wtf whats the topic, m$ law suit. whats he talking about... exaclty
very nice
A loss doesn't look good; the attorneys general that are pursuing this case wouldn't waste time on if if they thought they didn't have a chance to win it.
The real question is why the other states aren't pursuing it further. I suspect that's because of heavy lobbying and "campaign donations" by Microsoft, convincing politicians that what's good for Microsoft is good for the country.
If I were to hazard a guess, I would guess that if the state of the economy were better, most, if not all, of the other seven states would join. Nearly every state is broke and have other things that are of a higher priority at this time. I'm sure that the economy is hurting M$ but they can just downsize. Government never finds it easy to downsize so M$ probably has the advantage.
Microsoft dodges yet another possible bankrupting lawsuit by buying the entire state of Massachusetts...
Boies should be attorney General instead of Ashcroft, but is too smart to take the pay cut.
That rotten judge Thomas Penfield Jackson.
His indiscretion cost the whole world global domination for one company.
If he would have kept his mouth shut, none of this would have happened.
Jackson's findings of fact were correct, Bill Gates and other Microsoft execs lied in court, and Microsoft should be broken up--period.
Ken Starr could crucify Gates over his testimony if he could put forth as much effort as he did over Clinton's perjury. Put Gates on trial, that's my solution. I bet Boies would do it pro bono if Ellison and co. sent him a few briefcases full of cash.
Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
Take internet explorer out of windows...and windows ain't windows anymore(wasn't this proved, by accident, during one of the court sessions?)....rofl...everytime my browser crashes on my pc (i'm typing on a mac), my desktop crashes as well....This is gonna be interesting to see how M$ will take the windows out of Windows...
"Some fight for law. Some fight for justice. What will you fight for? One day, you will see."
I think we need to let Microsoft go, eventually people will get so tired of their bloated software that they will switch. This case has taken up several years of the federal courts time, and has been a waste of tax payer money. Now dont get me wrong i Hate Microsoft just as much as everyone else here,. But i am tired of spending money i could be using to buy new hardware and software on a trial that isnt ever going to do me any good. I am sorry, but it needs to die, if we keep it going, microsoft will be around that much longer
---
Bill Gates:"Jazz musician? Pfft! They just make it up while they go along. I could do that. (To the tune of 'Mary had a Little Lamb)Doo do do doo do do doo, do do doo, do do doo."
Virginia Prosecutor:"That's Mary had a Little Lamb."
Bill Gates:"O.K. then, dee de de dee de de dee, de de dee, de de dee."
Virginia Prosecutor:"That's the same thing, you just replaced doo's with dee's."
Bill Gates:"O.K. then i'll just code Windows so that instead of displaying 'Mary had a Little Lamb' it will display 'Great Ballad by Bill Gates' instead."
Microsoft didn't "[need] cooperation from outside sources to pull their stunts". They greenmailed and coerced the vendors to install only Windoze on their machines-- this is a finding by the federal courts that is not in dispute. The notion that "the majority of the market wanted MS to be the standard" presumes that the vendors/retailers could make a choice. No choice == monopoly. As for Gateway, they are a bunch of flueless cucks (translate) who won't build anything but a Wintel box. If they offered Linux or something else on their machines, it would likely be up to the vendor of that OS to support it, not Gateway. BTW, forcing vendors to support Windoze must be a pretty good deal for MS-- they don't have to pay for tech support directly. But I think it's a super bad deal for the typical user.
Always look on the briight side of life! (whistle, whistle)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Agreed.
It's not so much the application, iexplore.exe, that is the fundamental part of the OS, it's the MSHTML rendering engine that comes in the Internet Explorer backend DLLs.
Most applications, if they want to launch a web session or access HTML content, load an iexplore.exe inside of their own window, instead of rendering the page itself. Easier that way...
IE isn't just the program people use to browse the Internet; the API (seems) to involve quite a bit of talking to the application itself, not just the backend. Designed, no doubt, to make something like that easier -- for my database program to be able to show me the manufactuerer's web site, inside it's own window, while still correctly rendering all the scripts, etc.
(IANA Developer)
Last I heard, the states had $25 million to divvy up. California I believe had the largest share of expenses.
So Microsoft pays. It's a win-win, ha-ha. I doubt the states will be reimbursed more than actual costs. I also assume/hope the law has some safety valve against nonsense prolongation of the litigation, but this appeal sounds meritorious if doomed.
(And, it should be noted, an appeal costs peanuts compared to the $25 million -- tens of thousands, maybe. I'm sure Microsoft doesn't mind, they want to be sure this is done right.)
Like anyone in West Virginia knows how to use a computer. Buncha frickin' rednecks.
You know West Virginians found a new use for sheep?
Wool.
You are correct in saying that Microsoft should never have bundled Internet Explorer into Windows in the first place...
It does not belong there... I can see them INSTALLING IE if it wasn't required...but them making it so called impossible to remove was a big mistake...
If we can't trust the browser...and its automatically part of the system...It doesn't say much for the system.
Many thanks to the California A.G... now I'm gonna have to revise my biases.
The nice thing about lawyers in this case is that a small mistake made in a lawyers case doesn't really hurt the overal product, however in software that isn't true. I'd rather have a lawyer whine a lot than have to test NxNxNxN... extra test cases myself...
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
For example, there was never really a decisive victory against IBM, but the decade of ongoing legal scrutiny caused IBM to change their business practices greatly, in many areas. As a specific example, the fact that the PC is a fairly open architecture is a result of such legal efforts: IBM only outsourced the PC operating system to Microsoft because they were afraid that bundling hardware and software would get them dragged into court again.
While this created another monopoly in the form of Microsoft, the overall outcome was still better than the alternative, a closed, all-IBM solution. The fact that the PC software was separate from IBM hardware allowed a third party hardware market to flourish and indirectly made software like Linux possible.
So, nibbling away legally at monopolists like IBM and Microsoft does produce long-term benefits, even if such efforts fail to produce groundbreaking short-term victories. The efforts against IBM opened up the PC hardware/software platform, and similar long-term efforts against Microsoft may kill the Microsoft monopoly as well.
And there are indications that Microsoft is changing subtly under this pressure already. But the point is: the longer the legal pressure is on them, the more they will change. This is not the time to lean back and say "oh, we'll just stick with this little settlement". It is on-going lawsuits, not some signature under a settlement, that ultimately keeps companies like Microsoft in check.
Eventually, we have to get a judge that either sees the sense in all of it, or cannot be bought, or (hopefully) both. How much more can will it take?
Just an interesting though: what if all the money that went in to this trial went into development of Free software instead? (We might be a lot farther along. There can be more than one way to make competition...) Anyone know how much has been spent??
Yes, and you know why MS got the opportunity to do this? Because IBM was subject to the same legal scrutiny as Microsoft is now. IBM outsourced the PC operating system to MS because IBM was afraid of more anti-trust action if they did both the PC hardware and software in-house. Note that influencing IBM in this area wasn't the result of an actual settlement, it was the consequence of on-going legal scrutiny and the threat of lawsuits.
Today, Microsoft is the monopoly that kills innovation and competitiveness. And we can apply the same strategy to Microsoft as we did to IBM decades ago: on-going legal scrutiny and on-going lawsuits. Discovery, legal proceedings, and the threat of legal judgements have the teeth that anti-trust settlements lack. This is what will keep Microsoft in check, just like it did IBM.
I wish I were a state so I could join too.
Worse than communism, the cancer of MS is rusting away the fabric of this country!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What if every government or private entity that disaproved of Micro$oft tactics simply stopped buying their products??? That would punish them far more than anything the courts are going to acheive, and would do much to promote alternatives such as Free/Open Source Software.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
I've been thinking, we should change IANAL to IANALBIHAOA (I'm Not A Lawyer But I Have An Opinion Anyway). ;-)
Funny thing, the U.S. dropped the tying claim altogether. They stuck to the 2 monopoly claim. This article describes the why and how (caution: may cause blurry vision).
My non-expert opinion is that DOJ sabotaged its own case on a go-easy directive from above. Actually, it may not have needed any such directive, as President Bush appointed people sympathetic to his views and the views of his supporters -- all people I would describe as antagonistic to antitrust generally. More than one conservative has proposed abolishing the department.
The green party--that is, the far-left party whose leader publicly stated that he didn't care if he caused an idiot to get the Presidency--can be blamed as a major reason Al Gore lost the 2000 election.
We have a voting system where your best bet is to vote for the lesser of two evils. Work for voting reform, vote as you want in non-presidental elections--but when an election as unpredictable as Bush vs. Gore comes up, by all means grab the one you can live with to make sure the other guy doesn't get in!
Or, if you think the country is beyond repair, please leave. The rest of us will be better off without you.
Microsoft could offer a selective install option like, say, Apple does, but it doesn't want to. I refuse to believe there are serious technical obstacles -- even if they can't extirpate all of, say, the browser code, all they have to do it sabotage access to it. Why would anyone do this is they didn't at least save disk space? Well, they wouldn't, but Microsoft doesn't wan to give up even this much control, and worried what vendors who preinstall the OS might do.
MS (correctly) perceives that it is doomed if it does not branch out into newer and different industries from its stalwart OS. It is not enough to keep its OS's on as many machines as possible, because its monopoly will not hold forever, and when it breaks so will their profit margins. The Web caught it off-guard; now it thinks it can conquer it. The easiest and most familiar way to do so is to bootstrap via the OS advantage. Hence its aggressive efforts to slot IE into everyone's desktop including Apple's (which seems to have gone away now).
Also, MS has for years now used a scorched earth policy towards any competitor. It viewed the government as just another opponent. Its recent recent experience appears to be making it less arrogant and more political. There was even an NYT magazine article on the kinder, gentler Steve Ballmer.
But if you ever can't get a date on Saturday night, you might give it a try.
.):t .php? ba=pdtl&product=159
You can get a copy of Mandrake 9.0 delivered to you for under $10 here (shipping is expensive . .
http://www.edmunds-enterprises.com/linux/car
You also might want to try "Knoppix." You can get it from the same site. It boots and runs from your CDROM, so you don't have to install on your hard drive. Everything should detect automatically.
You do us all a favor by keeping up with the alternatives; Linux/Windows users alike.
Thanks for being open minded, I'll try to do the same.
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
A little follow-up -- according to this article reimbursement goes to the states -- the law provindes nothing for Justice -- and was $10 million for the 9 states that quit a year ago.
The root of the problem is the line between applications and operating system is blurred. If you can't say what is and isn't part of an operating system, you can't prevent MS from unfairly bundling its own applications with Windows.
Until somebody comes up with a definitive answer as to what constitutes an operating system, Microsoft will be able to do as it pleases.
I doubt that any such strict boundries can be determined, such is the nature of software. The reality is that Microsoft will continue to steal any financially viable idea and put the originator out of business, until they own the entire industry.
When that day comes they will be forced to open their codebase and MS will be no more. In short, Microsoft will eat itself to death.
Well, it seems that the American system may work afterall.. regardless of how much money MS has, they don't seem able to stop the TRUTH from coming out. They appear to have reached their high point and are now on the way down...finally. The real innovators (Linux/Sun/Cisco/IBM/etc..) are going to ultimately win even if not in the courtroom of the DOJ, they will win in the courtroom of public opinion.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - The Celtic - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Microsoft has a large office in Reston VA now. Obviously, MA and WV are feeling in need of something.
Sleep is for the Weak
If I were to hazard a guess, I would guess that if the state of the economy were better, most, if not all, of the other seven states would join. Nearly every state is broke and have other things that are of a higher priority at this time. I'm sure that the economy is hurting M$ but they can just downsize. Government never finds it easy to downsize so M$ probably has the advantage.
:-)
Now is the time for the states to tax the sale of software (separately from the normal sales tax). Of course, when you're favorite O/S and apps are free, guess which ones everybody will migrate towards
The Soviet Union is coming back to take over teh world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Matt Marinni is gay!
Actually, MS went to great lengths to make the browser not part of the OS. That's the whole point of COM/COM+/DCOM/.Net/flavor-of-the-week. They have an interface called IBrowser that defines a way for applications to ask a component to render HTML pages. Components that provide that interface can be installed on the system, IE being one example. An application can ask the system for a list of all components that provide the IBrowser interface, instantiate an instance of one of them and use it. The whole point was to decouple the IBrowser interface from the component that implements it, so that you could have multiple implementations as the situation demanded.
Of course, what happened along the way was that MS went from the minor player trying to create a way to insure that there wasn't anything special about those big third-party apps that everybody had to have (if they were all just COM components that provided standard interfaces then swapping that Oracle database out for MS SQL Server would be easy) to a company trying to keep everybody else from easily replacing it's aps (if browsers are just COM components that provide a standard IBrowser interface then swapping IE out for Mozilla would be easy).
I get so tired of people talking about Bill Gates doing all this bad stuff for in the computer industry. It's gone from monopolies to just plain complaints about having to pay for software. Bill Gates is a business genius who has given the public everything they want in their operating systems, web browsers, and other important applications such as Excel. Yeah they have taken large portions of the world's computer users under their grasps, but only because they offer the public what they want and what works(for the most part, everythign has bugs). I just think people should lay off Bill Gates and the company he brought to life, government included and let Microsoft continue to provide us software that works.
those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. -isaac asimov
I guess we can all stop the stereotypical cracks about WV for being a bunch of stupid illiterate hillbillies, huh.
You get those Bastards WV, take them to the cleaners and LEAVE THEM THERE. we're all done with MS now, we don't need or want them anymore.
Rock on WV.
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
This story is probably not substantive enough to merit it's own thread in a penguin parade, but makes for an interesting counterpoint to the usual MS bashing and crying.
"Microsoft products were consistently rated highly when compared to competitive offerings, a result that held true across different product categories and over time."
HBS Working Knowledge
As a student of law myself, it's kind of a difficult situation for the states to be in. Knowing that taking on MS is really a somewhat losing battle as MS can continue to drag this out means that you have to allocate state funds to pursuing a law suit you are pretty unlikely to win. As against MS as I am, I can't say that at this point I could justify my state of IN to do something like this. I'd just rather see the money spent elsewhere. But what do I know? I'm just a voter.
Why, how much do you pay?
Both AT&T and MCI have pre-paid calling cards that are sub-3.5 cents a minute. You can set them up to autorecharge. No monthly fees, no late fees when you forget to pay your bill, extremely cheap long distance. Use those. Only downside is an extra 20 digits when you want to call somewhere.
Deregulation and competion works. I now get local and long distance service (7 cents a minute, for when I'm feeling especially lazy and the call is going to be short) for $30/month, everything included. That's compared to the combined $50 I was paying Sprint and SBC Ameritech for my service and features before (the vast majority of which was going to Ameritech). Hell, if you do a lot of calling, they have a $50/month plan with UNLIMITTED LONG DISTANCE. Nice.
paintball
Friends don't let friends mod on crack.
Yeah, yeah, -1 Redundant.
They picked the President, not the People
It's not like appealing the case any further will do *anything* under the current President. We can't trust judges *or* lawyers.
Bill was a Schmuck, but Bush is every bit as deceptive and untrustworthy. Why get bogged down trying to revive the economy if you can just pick a fight with some tyrant around the world. Oh, he's got an agenda, all right. Once he's done with Saddam (and f***ing up the world OIL market), then we'll go after Iran and N. Korea. Never mind that we're still not done with Afghanistan.
maybe i can bet them IN A GYM SUIT
or maybe A DIVING SUIT
maybe i can beat them IN my BIRTHDAY SUIT
Can you say lawsuit boys and girls...
that's good, I knew you could
HELLO??!!
.sig. Looks pretty on-topic to me....
Read the last line above my
I think some moderator's having a bad day. Meta-moderators, party on.
--
* Helen *
To think people have no choice between, for example, SQL Server and Oracle
We want the desktop you insensitive, M$ clod! All that stuff you mention is aimed at backend, server type stuff. I know it's a hopeless pipedream, but the Linux zealots (includes me, marginally) want the desktop!
Choice! Ha! I laugh at your idea of "choice".
Seriously, are you going to get your opinion of any company from someone who quit after 3 weeks?
I don't base my opinion on that. My first inklinkgs of a negative opinion of M$ goes back to 1994. When I realized that DOS and the splashy GUI I was using (Win 3.11) were made by the same company, I was at a lose to explain why I couldn't close a DOS window by double clicking the little button on the upper left of the window. After all, it worked for all the Windows programs. But not for the DOS windows. But the programs are made by the same damn compnay.
Then I went away for the summer and heard about the new Win95. I saw it but was not greatly impressed. Then when I got back, some weirdo on campus showed me OS/2 Warp. Then I found that while I'd been gone, M$ had sent me an issue of a magazine that was essencially nothing but a big commercial for M$. I wondered why I'd never heard of OS/2 before. I felt like I'd been betrayed on some deep level by not being told that there was more than one OS in the world. I wonder how many non-computer-savvy people in the world still don't know this basic fact. It's like the people chained up in the cave. They've not seen the light.
Then I started to notice (over time) that not only was M$ a near monopoly, their products sucked, crashed a lot, and, M$ played the game dirty. That was what pissed me off the most. On second thought, no, it was the crappy software that pissed me off the most. The other thing was just a close second.
Now that M$ is all the way up to XP, the crappy software is mostly a thing of the past. M$ apps seem to run pretty solidly now (I'm not saying that XP is the first version to be able to make that claim, I'm just saying that it is that way now).
But I will never forgive them for playing the game dirty. It's not that I have a problem with them competing with other businesses and trying to win and drive other businesses out of business (although, despite what some people say, that's not always the best strategy for a business). It's the way they do it. Do you realize what company you're working for? Can you really look at yourself in the mirror each morning? Really?
If you see a person bleeding to death on the street, will you help them? Because I'm not so sure Ballmer or Gates would.
Yes, yes, I know. I'm a crazy lunatic. Don't worry about it, I'm just venting. :-P
Furry cows moo and decompress.
...they can actually afford it.
I'd buy it. I have to use Windows for work, and I would be very glad to be rid of Media Player and IE. I never use either one on purpose. One is too easy to crack into and the other has a EULA I can't swallow, not to mention the spying-on-the-user issues. I'd pay for a DS version of Windows with gratitude.
While perfectly happy to send people with mental ages of three to the chair, he keeps his very special sparing of life to the really good ones...
One of the few (not even sure if there has been more than one), is one Henry Lee Lucas. Yes. Old hang 'em high Bush will toast simpletons no problem, but when it comes to mass murderers (Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer), he's very merciful...
"On June 27, 1998 Governor George W. Bush spared Henry's life because of overwhelming evidence proving that Henry was not in Texas when "Orange Socks" was murdered. Although Lucas confessed to killing her, work records and a cashed paycheck indicated he was in Florida at the time of the murder. Bush issued the reprieve on the recommendation of the state parole board. "I can only thank them for believing the truth and having guts enough for standing up for what's right," Lucas said from death row."
http://www.houseofhorrors.com/lucas.htm
You can't buy Windows for $100. Maybe you're thinking of what they charge OEMs. If you go to microsoft.com and act like you intend to buy Windows XP, for example, and pick one of the listed retailers, such as CompUSA, you will find that it costs double that for the home edition, unless you are upgrading. And four times that for the "Professional" edition: http://www.compusa.com/promos/windows_xp/preorder. asp
Mandrake and many other installations are as easy (or difficult) to install as whatever MS offering of MS.
And now, tell me something: how do you customize a corporate install for MS platform and then install it in 20, 200 or 2000 machines?
I would tell you how to do it in Linux, but I guess you would clasify that as MS hate speech.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The only difference between a command economy controlled from Moscow and a command economy controlled from Fedmond is one of longitude.
give me a
Oops, M$ killed them with illegal actions.
What a ridiculous myth. Netscape absolutely monopolized the browser market, but killed themselves when they got so refocused primarily on the web server (where they might make money) that they pretty much gave up on the browser market. I realize that many on here have an absurd revisionist history, but for those who were actually computing through the changes, you know that around version 3 Netscape slowed down, and then 4 was just a bloated minor change. At the same time Microsoft kept steaming along. That's competitive forces at its best. Netscape was NEVER the underdog that everyone likes to romantically pretend they were now.
Maybe BeOS?...Oops, another product killed by illegal M$ actions.
You're being funny here, right? If anything, Linux killed BeOS, not Microsoft, because BeOS generally catered to the same sort of crowd that Linux catered to (just as Linux helped cement the death of OS/2, and keeps Amiga from rising from the ashes. In the interest of obscure operating systems, I hereby proclaim that Linux should be banned by governments worldwide).
but we'd likely get slapped down by M$'s threats of no more Office for Mac.
Wow...so now Microsoft HAS to make successful products otherwise they're abusing their powers. There is just no end to the constraints you believe that they should live under is there?
You don't think the phrase Moron Confused by Sun Equipment came from nowhere, now did you?
Funny, but I've never ever heard this brilliant little gem before. I suggest that you take a peek out of your little zealot cave every now and then and you'll discover a real world of real people looking for cost effective, powerful solutions to their problems. Raving maniac anti-Microsoftarians are just as bad as the most brianwashed pro-Microsoft VB fanatic (they're one and the same).
I used to go to MS sponsored events up there, but I've noticed lately that the MS sign isn't on the building anymore. Can't say for sure whether they're still around or not.
Please vote for one of the following:
[ ] Big Industry Patsy/Media Cartel Puppet (R)
[ ] Media Cartel Puppet/Big Industry Patsy (D)
[ ] Piss Away Vote (I)
__
Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
I hate Microsoft, but WV is a state owned by the trial lawyers. Highest workman's comp claims, high malpractice insurance premiums forcing doctors to leave in droves, etc.
And you sound like the typical hillbilly... it's those big bad corporations fault! The coal industry ruined our state! Yeah... no West Virginian never got rich.
Now... no corporation wants anything to do w/ the backward state. But, there is hope. Once the Eastern Panhandle becomes the most populace area - the politics of the past will be gone.
> Because IBM was subject to the same legal scrutiny as Microsoft is now :s/is now/should be now/
...a judge who agrees with you is a judge who "sees the sense in all of it", right?
Good grief. How many lynch mobs have behaved in precisely the same dull-witted, imbecilic, zombie-like manner? Not knowing, not caring about the "facts," a lynch mob doesn't rest until the noose snaps tight. After that, it takes the time to consider its actions.
Your idea that "nearly the entire computing industry hates Microsoft," is truly one of the most egregiously ridiculous statements I've ever heard. There are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of software and hardware companies world wide which owe their existence--their entire success--to the market Microsoft built with Windows. In fact, Microsoft could never in a million years have built such a market without the aid of all of these companies consciously working to build a market. The idea that Microsoft did it alone is sheer nonsense *chuckle*--the Dells, Gateways, Microns, HPs and all the rest in this world have contributed just as much if not more to the Windows market as Microsoft has.
The kind of thinking which places Microsoft in its current position and forgets all of the other corporations sharing in and assisting in Microsoft's market illustrates the most extreme kind of ignorance.
Frankly, I'm sick of the self-righteousness of deluded people who think the courts, the companies--and anybody else who stands in their way--is wrong. It's really looking like a pathetic viewpoint these days.
Oh, exactly!
Now we are pulling away the veil and peering through the haze of lynchmob fervor--and catching glimpses of the simple truth, aren't we?
Why *are* people still buying Microsoft if they think the company and its products are so rotten?
Hint: Maybe because your sentiment is a minority sentiment--distinctly a minority sentiment? Just a thought...
If it weren't for the monopoly abuses, almost nobody would be using any Microsoft products today. Most of Microsoft's 1987-to-date (approx) revenue should be taken from them.
Microsoft's only legitimate defense against this, would be to attack the morality of anti-trust law itself, and even I with all my hatred for them, have quite a bit of sympathy for that position. But if you don't like a law, repeal it. I don't see Elcomsoft being let off simply because DMCA is immoral.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Why not spend all this money on Linux...!? But, but, isn't that the point of Linux - NOT spending money on it? So you're going to use the same tactic you so obviously egregiously deplore -- giving it away for free until it is locked in; then charge for it?
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
Thus Compaq could build better performing systems (and patch up MS/DOS to handle large disks while they were at it--Compaq DOS 3.3.1). Thus the off-shore clone makers could build 100% compatible MoBos for less $$. Thus Phoenix and AMI (among others) could make compatible BIOS chips for each new generation of hardware.
Contrast this to MS. They're trying to keep anybody else from getting a piece of the action. They "fixed" Windows until 1-2-3 broke. They "Improved" Word and Excel so they would fail under DR-DOS. They strong-arm the PC makers to avoid using competitive products, or they'll lose their Windows license discounts (the kiss of death for a low-margin operation). So who wants a commodity (==competitive) market, and who wants to maintain a monopoly?
I'm afraid my point kind of got lost in there; sorry. The point is that selling a superior product isn't the answer, because they already have a corner on the market. It is no longer possible to really affect Microsoft through the free market system, because there is no free market there. The only recourse we have left is to attempt to punish them for the many illegal actions they have taken, and many other actions that violate the spirit of the law, if not the letter.
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.