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Windows Refund Day II
pbody writes "Sorry if this is rehashing an old topic, but I was looking for advice on how
to try to get a refund for the copy of XP that is coming with the laptop I
just bought when I came across this on LinuxJournal
about windowsrefund.net. They are
organizing "Windows Refund Day II" on January 23, 2003 -- which coincides
with the LinuxWorld Expo in NYC. Knowing how the first refund day turned
out, how many out there are going to the Expo and are thinking about
participating? For that matter, has anybody had any luck at all getting a refund from a vendor lately?"
... not me but another guy posted this in ch.comp.os.linux. It's in german, but in short: he got a Dell Notebook finally without the OS (2k or XP) and he paid 7% less than with OS. Not bad.
I tried getting a refund from a VPR Matrix (best buy brand) machine, no luck. a friend of mine tried hp, with similar luck.
/is/ in the EULA... they do realize that, right?
any laywers feel like taking on MSFT? this
We all know that MS are trying to move towards a licensing model where you pay every 3years/1 year/1 month/every day to use the software. This is interesting when you think about software as a service.
So the software is FREE, but the service is paid for. Thus the service enables the "free" software to be used and you have paid for a period of n to use that software. This could make getting a refund harder as the service is provided by Microsoft and not the OEM, also as its paid up front from the OEM to Microsoft it blurs how refunds can be obtained. Its like car insurance, you have it, you pay for it up front, the fact that you don't have a car crash doesn't mean that you can say it wasn't used and ask for a refund.
IANAL (Thank god) but a licensing change could make refunds even harder to get hold of.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
"Due to the nature of software piracy, we can not offer refunds or exchanges on open, or OEM software"
0110100100100000011000010110110100100000011000100
Just word it correctly. Dont use pictures of it, and never put the word OEM in the auction. Just say you bought your computer and the software at the same time, but you never used it, yada yada yada.
It seems they mostly search for the words OEM. If people are worried, they'll usually pick up on it and send you and email asking "is this OEM..." etc etc.
My only recommendations would be to make sure it isnt hardware bound, that it will install on a system other than what yours is (example: installs that check your bios to make sure thats being installed on the machine it was sent for), and to offer full money back guarantee (minus shipping of course) in case something DOES go wrong, and the person isnt 100% pleased.
If a manufacturer won't let me buy a computer without a MS OS pre-installed, I just don't buy the computer from them. I know this can't be avoided sometimes, but I think it's better for this community to support manufacturers that are not so intimately in bed with MS.
For laptops, I would try PCTorque.com. (I have no association with the website, other than being a satisfied repeat customer.)
And, to remain on-topic, from everything I've ever experienced or read about MS and their aggressive licensing policies/ideology, I think that it will take an outcry from corporations before MS even begins to contemplate giving refunds on unused merchandise. You've already had the opportunity to see the registration key, and that's very important to them.
Here's a start. Doesn't anyone know how to use Google?
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Try this link for some nice laptops that you can buy without an OS. They even has a Linux forum. Nice people, nice laptops!
That's just it - he may have accepted the purchase, but he didn't accept the EULA for Windows. After he bought it, he would have got home, opened it up, and been presented with additional terms & conditions, that he never agreed to beforehand, or even saw. That same document states that if he doesn't agree to them, he can get his money back.
The obvious way of fixing this is to present the EULA before purchase.
If you have a valid license (the EULA, not the activation key) you can purchase a "media pack" from M$. It comes with installation media and its own activation key. I believe that you just have to pay for the cost of the media and shipping. I know that it isn't the ideal solution, but it is better than nothing. The restoration CDs that are shipped with a lot of OEM systems also prevent you from transfering the lisence to another machine or to another person or organization which is also allowed by the EULA that you implicitly agree to by using the software. We as consumers need to not only tell the OEMs that we don't want to have to purchase M$ OSes but also that if we do want the OS then we want to be able to envoke any and all of our given rights according to the EULA.
--
Excellent ResellerRating:e ller_info.pl?sell er_id=1980
c es sor=pentium&display_size=15
http://www.resellerratings.com/s
Great price, Great product (similar to Alienware), no OS pre-installed.
http://www.powernotebooks.com/products.php3?pro
No I don't work there, just a well educated consumer (cheapskate).
1 - not legal. The EULA specifically says it's legally bound to the hardware it was bought with
Not legal for whom, precisely? It's explicitly legal where I live (Germany). There was a court decision not too long ago, saying that Microsoft have no right to restrict the way in which OEMs resell copies of Windows; what they write in the licence is not above the law of the land. I'd go so far as to say this (unrestricted reselling) is probably the case for the rest of the EU.
I just looked in ebay.de and found OEM versions of XP for sale, so it doesn't look like Ebay is killing those auctions.
On a related note: you will see more and more recovery CDs. Although you may be able to sell them as you want, people generally aren't interested in buying them.
-- Steve
There are great laptops WITHOUT AN OS at http://www.powernotebooks.com.
On top of great hardware at a great price, you also get the best customer service I've experienced (and I've bought from Dell, Toshiba and Micron). I am not associated with them in any way other than a happy customer.
I am typing this on a new Powernotebooks laptop running Red Hat 8.0. On the day I purchased it, the same hardware at Dell was selling for $350 more AFTER applying all their xmas discounts.
Don't buy from any vendor that won't unbundle the OS from their hardware. And tell them why you are not buying from them!
Perhaps he's commenting on the fact that you can be in the zero ($0) federal tax liability bracket (incomes up to $16,000 I think), not pay ANYTHING in federal income tax, and still get the earned income tax credit! and get tax refunds when they rarely occur as well!
I'm thinking about building one a ECS DeskNote, which seems to have the best of both worlds: a notebook form factor with a degree of desktop upgradability - and no OS! There's no battery, though - although an external one is available.
You can get'em barebones at Newegg pretty cheap.
> But you shouldn't demand a refund, but rather get
> them to sell you the computer without the OS in the
> first place.
You seem to be missing the point that you *can't*,
because of Microsoft's criminal abuse of their
monopoly position.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
You should realize though that most of these companies purchase the hardware from companies like Sager (Linux forum) and Compal, and those companies also supply the big-name guys like Compaq, HP, Dell, and Toshiba. So when you find some no-name laptop, it is usually equivalent to some branded laptop that never touched the hands of HP/Compaq/Toshiba/Dell. (And figuring out exactly *which* brand-name laptop it is equivalent to can be extremely difficult) Some of the below claim to manufacture their own notebooks, but what this means is that they buy them from Saeger/Compal or someone else, and put in a hard drive/CPU/RAM, which is why you will find identical looking cases at several of these vendors.
If you find a HP/Compaq/Toshiba/Dell/IBM/Sony branded laptop that has linux preinstalled, it means that the vendor paid for windows and removed it. I do not list them below because I think this is a despicable and deceptive practice. These manufacturers do not (yet) sell no-os or linux laptops. (But please, call them and ask!! The squeaky wheel gets the grease!) Also if you order a no-OS laptop, please request linux to be installed anyway, and tell them you'll pay for it! Let them know there is demand!
-- Bob
1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
In any case, there are IMPLIED warranties that arise simply out of the sale which cannot be disclaimed if a written warranty is provided and assuming this was a consumer sale. The most common is the implied warranty of merchantability (Uniform Commercial Code Section 2-314). Every state has a version except LA, and maybe even them by now. Also, breach of warranty is in most states an unfair and deceptive business practice that can get you 3 times your actual damages or a sum set by statute, whichever is greater, plus attorneys fees. You should be able to file this in small claims court abd get a very good result.
Remember - you bought a piece of HARDWARE and it is the hardware that is defective. As a matter of fact, unless that clear and conspicuous language is there, I would put in a separate count claiming that merely telling you that running Linux invalidates a warranty is unfair and deceptive, entitling you to damages. If it is there, I would claim that warranty provision is invalid and itself unfair and deceptive.
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
Windows has filed lawsuits to prevent people from transferring liscenses (albiet only corporations so far).
M$'s position is that you are leasing the software for your own use, and that, as you have no real rights to it, you have no right to transfer your usage priviledges to anyone else.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
I don't think you can buy a media kit from Microsoft without purchasing software licenses in the same order. At least, this is what they told us where I work. The reason, of course, would be so that people aren't installing an unlicensed $25 copy of Windows on every computer at the office. The threat of piracy is also increased due to the fact that the Keyless Media Kits are intended to be sold to companies, and DO NOT require activation so that deployment is easier.
Unauthorized feeding of Metroids is strictly prohibited.
I'm not a lawyer, but I've used corporate attorneys to draft and discuss contracts with so here's my two cents. Perhaps the ./ folks can arrange a 10 question interview with the Free Software Foundation's attorney for his views.
I also think this makes Microsoft in breach. MS is making a claim on behalf of a third party (the OEM). So it's up to Microsoft to enforce that their OEM knows about and honors the refund.
The OEM has its own agreement with Microsoft. And if that agreement does not force the OEM to provide refunds, then Microsoft does not have the right to make such a claim in the EULA.
Think about it. MS is trying to bind a third party in their license agreement that the third party didn't even agree to.
So if the resale agreement between MS and the OEM doesn't spell out the OEM's responsibility to process refunds on the Windows software only, then MS cannot legally make that claim in their EULA.
This sounds like very good grounds for a lawsuit against MS by their consumers. With a lawsuit, you can subpena the resale agreements with the OEMs to figure out who to really go after.
Also, you might want to go to http://www.resellerratings.com/ and complain about the reseller there. I think it should also have been the responsibility of the reseller to inform you that it came with a crippled hard drive without a CD.
(I'm putting QNX on it, for embedded development. QNX, incidentally, has become more friendly to Linux programmers. They now use the GNU toolchain. If you're not doing real-time work, QNX now works a lot like Linux. If you are doing real-time work, it works a lot better than Linux.)
My guess is, it's the same here (Switzerland). Although the EULA contains all sort of bullshit, I don't think that they can prevent you from reselling the license. Most European countries have even stronger consumer protection.
What does prevent it however, are the fine folks @ Microsoft, who extort your OEM in adding a crippled copy of XP, which only insalls on - say - Fujitsu-Siemens computers and then it just formats away and provides you with the base install of your computer. (Moderators note, they call that recovery disk. You might as well mod Microsoft as funny.)
Of course such a crippled version is just about useless and it's resell value is probably zilch.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
OK, maybe the next one for $15?
Let's look for something with a key...OEM or not. Ah, here's one for $85, including free shipping!
Hmmm. So, it's not XP Pro it's XP Home. Wait, a few blocks down here's XP Pro for $107.89!
No CD. Hmmm. OK, we'll look for a full (OEM or not) Windows XP Pro CD with a valid key. What does that go for? $135;
...for the OEM version.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
I tried to make a stink about this in various enthusiast forums, but no one really cares (except for here, possibly).
Windows refunds will become a moot point as this trend continues. Although folks are familar with WinModems, I just got a machine from Dell that:
* Included a sound card that only ran under Windows XP. It just wouldn't run under Linux no matter what I did to the driver.
* Has a chipset that recent Linux kernels cannot understand - so no DMA for hard drives, and no USB2.0 support.
I rectified the first issue by complaining long and loud to Dell, and they finally sent me a new sound card, identical chips on board, that worked fine in all operating systems. I'm hoping that a new kernel will eventually fix the chipset issue.
The machine is a Dimension 4550, which should be about as bog standard as they get. This isn't a laptop, BTW; it is a 'normal' desktop machine, and the first that I've seen that is at least partially Linux incompatible.
At any rate, this refund issue is going to go away as the larger OEMs introduce models tied to specific versions of Windows. Time to start investigating other options.
jonathan
If your annual withholding amount is greater than your tax liability, then yes, you'll get YOUR OWN money back. and for a vast majority of trailer trash, that sure does look like 'duh guvmint done gibbin me moneys fer free!'
the EIC is the only thing that would let you 'make money' on your taxes if you didn't owe anything in the first place. everything else is already yours, you're just getting it back from the interest-free loan you floated the government all year.
My experience with Fujitsu was exactly the same, but the circumstances were a little different. I erased the disk and installed Linux immediately when I bought the notebook, then tried to re-install the XP that came with it a few months later when it became obvious that I needed it for office-related work. That's when I discovered that there was no real recovery disk provided.
When I wrote to Fujitsu they told me that Microsoft did not allow them to distribute any media except the HD in the
notebook, and that they would not send me any. The only alternative they offered was to re-burn the initial installation on my hard disk if I sent them the entire notebook and paid them $150 for the service.
I like the notebook a lot, but I will not buy another Fujitsu product until this customer-hostile policy disappears.
These people don't deserve our business.
That's fraud.
You are neglecting to mention that they are OEM copies, and there is a difference because you are allowed to sell your full copy of Windows XP.
By failing to mention this, potential buyers will be tricked into believing that they are full versions. You could say "yeah but it'll run, won't it?" but then again, what if they want to move it to another computer afterwards?
Dave
The first refund day was a disaster. It got little coverage, no one got a refund, and the most memorable image was someone dressed like Obiwan Kenobe...
Microsoft condescendingly had a banner that said "Microsoft Welcomes the Linux Community" and offered free lemonade.
Of course, Katz disagreed.
Pictures here.
W
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
They sell a Linux PC for anyone. This page tells you that Red Hat 8.0 is available on their Dell Precision 350n, 450n, 650n, 530n and 340n models. To find those, go to www.dell.com, click Small Business and choose Workstations. "Customize" any of the models listed before (they won't have "n" at the end of the number), and on the sidebar you'll see the option for Linux.
And for those who are curious, I customized the Precision 350 and 350n, to be identical in hardware, and the 350n (which is the one w/Linux) is exactly $100 cheaper than the 350.
Unfortunately, copying the URL doesn't copy the configuration, so I can't post a link to the two computers.
Going to small claims court REALLY isn't that big of a deal, you don't need a lawyer, there's no jury, just you, the company you are suing, and the judge. It costs something to file a claim, no matter where you live, but really not very much, and you can usually get the claim fee back if you win.
Just take your receipt and your laptop with no windows on it to the court, along with the EULA. You've got a good chance of winning, and merely filing the lawsuit will probably prompt the company to settle out of court. Make sure they pay your filing fee, of course.
If you have to miss a day of work to go to court, in some places you can sue for that too (assuming it's an issue where you work).
To reiterate: small claims is really no big deal, and the company probably won't let it get to that point anyway. Too bad you have to sue the vendor, and don't get to drag M$ into small claims court. That would be too cool.
WWJD? JWRTFA!