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Windows Refund Day II
pbody writes "Sorry if this is rehashing an old topic, but I was looking for advice on how
to try to get a refund for the copy of XP that is coming with the laptop I
just bought when I came across this on LinuxJournal
about windowsrefund.net. They are
organizing "Windows Refund Day II" on January 23, 2003 -- which coincides
with the LinuxWorld Expo in NYC. Knowing how the first refund day turned
out, how many out there are going to the Expo and are thinking about
participating? For that matter, has anybody had any luck at all getting a refund from a vendor lately?"
But the other way around - I need to get a refund for Windows ME and get my copy of XP from Sony - you would have thought they'd make it easy for you to give them money, but no. You have to fill out a form on the web, print it out, mail it to France, ring up a wek later to check status, confirm the order by email and *then* send your payment. Do they *want* to lose customers?
sig:- (wit >= sarcasm)
Sorry if this is rehashing an old topic, but I was looking for advice on how to try to get a refund for the copy of XP that is coming with the laptop.
Sell it on E-bay to someone who wants it.
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
But there's a flaw in your logic. In your situation, you still owned and were capable of using the car. Imagine you sold the car and bought a bike. You don't still have to pay car insurance, and insurers are generally required to give you a refund -- prorated for the time that the car was in your possession.
The same should also be required for Microsoft -- even if it meands removing the OS at purchase time to avoid the situation altogether.
Personally, I think it would be much easier to move to a service model -- but the cost can't come at purchase time. It has to come at activation time. If the first thing you do is reformat, there's no service charge at all.
I ran into an annoying problem similar, myself. I purchased a Compaq laptop last year, and they wouldn't let my buy it without an OS. So, I took the lowest priced option, XP Home, but never used it, just got the machine, installed linux and was happy. Last week, I ended up needing XP, but I didn't want to wipe my linux partition. The default recovery disks repartition AND reformat the drive rather than just being a copy of XP home + additional installers. So, since I had a valid activation key and license with the machine, I figured I could just install from a different XP home disk. No dice, apparently OEMs are given activation keys that only work for their installs. Both Compaq AND Microsoft said that if I wanted the partitioning and removal of the OEM stuff, I'd have to buy another copy. How irritating, since I HAVE a valid license. Ended up having to use the recovery disk after backing up my linux partition, and then uninstall AOL, COMPUSERVE, etc. etc. Big pain in the arse.
Please explain how I build my own cutting edge laptop?
You can't build a reasonable laptop just by slapping together a bunch of boards and an off-the-shelf case. The only choice is to buy a complete machine and then you pay the M$ tax.
By all means build your own desktop box (I've been incrementally upgrading my old '286 box - none of the original parts remains and now it's a 2GHz P4 - but I've never actually bought a complete new computer since that original machine)...but recognise that this isn't always an option.
Will you stop it? You're expecting people to use some common sense, and that just isn't going to happen.
One day I was having a similar discussion with this guy I know who wanted to buy a new laptop, but didn't want to run Windows XP on it. In his case, he simply wanted to install the Win98 that he was also using on his desktop PC (a gray area, but not important).
I tried to explain to him he should just get a system from a vender who would sell one without an OS. He complained that he didn't like any of the few that he found, or they weren't as nice as the ones from Dell.
I told him he's going to have to decide which is more important to him. Not buying XP or buying a better laptop.
I then told him he's got shit for brains.
I purchased a laptop from Fujitsu. Naturally it came with Windows XP, so I requested a refund. After nearly 2 weeks of back and forth emails of me requesting a refund, and pointing them to various websites about the issue, and my claims against the EULA to use windows I got nowhere.
Their argument was i agreed to THEIR EULA which states i can't get a refund, when i purchased it. Either they were ignorant or refused to give a refund under any circumstance. I would have contacted a lawyer but it just isn't worth my time.
- tristan
Can they in fact sell their licenses to you? Isn't the M$ license non-transferable? That is, they purchased a license from Bill, they can't arbitrarily re-sell it to you. Isn't it the case that you have no legal way to sell a machine with a M$ OS on it, but it slides since the cost for tracking this down simply outweighs the reward.
Am I wrong here?
And most vendors around here charge a 15% restocking fee for notebooks, so you can see how far you would get.
As has been suggested before, if you do not want a given item (Windows or whatever), then either look for a system that does not include it, build your own, or have someone build one to your specs. This will enable you to get exactly what you want and no more at a price you are willing to pay, and it will also provide an incentive for the manufacturers to provide systems that meet your desire so that they can get your business.
I consider the refund day concept to be little more than a minor publicity prank and of little practical value. What might make it beneficial would be for a group of users to purchase a product, refuse to accept the EULA, and then demand refunds per the instructions included in the EULA (supposedly this has happened with the people that would be participating in the refund day). Microsoft would probably point the users to the vendor, and the vendors would probably stand on their return policies. An ambitious and capable law firm might be able to make a case out of this, but the outcome would probably be along the lines of prohibiting vendors from charging restocking fees on items where the customer refuses to accept the EULA unless it was presented prior to purchase. The law firm wouyld also rack up fees to be paid by someone, probably the vendors. This would not amount to a significant change.
If you REALLY want to make a change in the marketplace, don't give your money to companies that you do not agree with or whose policies you dislike. If enough people do this it will force changes in the market. And if not enough people do this to make a difference, then you need to accept that you hold a minority viewpoint and are a niche customer.
IANAL, and you should pay for legal advice rather than believe anything you read here.
Bother, said Pooh, as he called in an air strike.
My friend ended up buying a Gateway PC and I told him to go back to "Gateway Country" to get his refund because he wanted to install Windows 2000 Pro-Not ME. The schmuck's at the GW store were clueless and refused to honor the EULA. A quick trip to the Washington State Attorney Generals Online Consumer Complaint Form and Corporate Gateway was calling him! They ended up (in an effort to keep a Gateway customer happy) paying him the price he paid for Winodws 2000 and the amount that I charged him to install it on his machine. The check he received from GW was around $500 US! If they had simply honored the EULA, GW would only have been out about $90? $120 tops. AND he got to keep all the software CD's that came with the PC. I don't think they ever really understood that he was entitled to the refund under the EULA.
Veritas patesco per quaestio questio. Truth is revealed through questions.
No, they are not. Of course they are not because in 95% of the time the customer wouldn't be aware of the alternative and thus will want Windows. However: have you ever *seen* the default installs of a Compaq or a Dell? No? I did: they are completely plastered with useless and idiot software, 3000 different services and stuff no normal user would ever need. Just to give you an idea: back in the Pentium days, I saw a Dell fresh out of the shop with 32Meg RAM (a lot in the time) and after bootup and doing nothing the memory usage was at 64Meg. Urks! That hurts, and that was a default install. Recent installs are better peformancewise, mainly due to cheap memory and fast CPU's, but the clutter is still there.
That is my problems with OEM's.... Not my problem with Microsoft. That is why any OEM machine that gest into my house just get booted up with a bootdisk/cd and reformatted on the spot.
And why don't people like Macs? (Linux I can understand) I don't get that: I used to dislike Macs, but that was a prejudice! I now have one and hell I've never had such a good system, and it's only an iBook.
So M$ is effectively breaching contract on the EULA, right? Any way one could mount an argument that this releases you from the terms of the EULA? 'Coz that would be nice....
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
When you buy your laptop, you don't accept the EULA at that time, you must accept it later. If you fail to accept the terms of the EULA, you cannot use the product. MicroS**T must refund the money since if you do NOT accept the EULA, you must be given the option of returning the software, or you'll have to return the WHOLE computer to the store...and computer stores don't go for the software they install forcing customers to return the computer. Therefore, they must give the option of NOT accepting the EULA and returning the software (OS) , if you cannot get a refund, Send a letter to microsoft, saying that you do NOT accept the EULA and that they have 30 days to get you your money back, or you'll take their lack of response as permission to use the software without the conditions of the EULA.
A thought.
Since MS has shown that they won't honor that part of the EULA, does that not invalidate the entire EULA for anyone who attempts the refund?
What I'm getting at is, MS considers the EULA to be a contract. By not honoring their part of it, does that mean that we don't have to honor our part of it?
Inquiring minds want to know....
I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
err... how *did* the first refund day turn out?
Well, the Mac is slightly different, because Apple clearly states that all Macs come with a FREE copy of the MacOS on the machine. New machines always come with the OS for free. You only get charged if you upgrade it. It's the same for Solaris boxes. You buy the hardware and Sun throws in Solaris. Upgrading to a new version of Solaris file.
What's different with PCs is that hardware makers don't make the OS, they BUY it from another company (Microsoft). Because of that, they pass on the cost to you and you should be able to get a refund.
Personally, I think it would be much easier to move to a service model -- but the cost can't come at purchase time. It has to come at activation time. If the first thing you do is reformat, there's no service charge at all.
Sounds great, but why would Microsoft buy into this? They currently has a stranglehold on the PC industry, so they can force the big PC makers to pay for the service up front, and they get their cut no matter what OS you choose to run on your laptop after you buy it.
About the only reason the big PC makers would consider this is that they could charge less by forcing the user to enter a CC# the minute they register their PC, thus making their PC's look cheaper to the end user. I can envision this being a nightmare to support. For example, I buy a Dell PC, bring it home, and instead of paying the $199 up front for 3 years of MS OS rental, I format the drive and put, for example, the Plan 9 operating system on it. Suddenly the modem goes. Does Dell customer service want to troubleshoot every existing OS I can install on their hardware? Do they want to "take my word" that the problem is hardware-related and not a Plan 9 driver problem?
More likely, a casual end user will skip the $199 registration and install their old version of 2000 or WinME/9x on the box - something Microsoft would very much not want to see happen.
"Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?"
Anyone tried buying a Powerbook or iMac without MacOS installed on it? I have. Tried to pick up an iMac at my local Apple Store. The sales person was reasonably helpful, going to the trouble of calling the head office to find out if such a thing was possible. This broke down when the best answer he could give me was 'We can't do it because we wouldn't know how much of a discount to give'; 'Surely you just deduct the number on that OSX box over there' I said. 'The retail and bundled versions are slightly different, and the pricing would be also, but we don't know what the bundled version costs' he replied. I shook my head and left the shop.
What do you get if you're successful: the price that the OEM pays? I'd be interested to know how much this actually is and how much it varies between OEMs. How do you know how much to ask for in the first place?
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
The problem was that the default install had a bug in it that would crash the computer on shutdown or sleep. (Pretty annoying) Many other people have this computer where I live (a company 'bonus' of sorts), and as I occationally go out and 'fix' these things, I saw *alot* of them with no patch installed (clueless users with no internet access).
Since the patch was marginal at best, the eventual solution was to install windows 98 from a regular install disk. Since they have already paid for Windows (that doesn't work), can I give them a 'copy' under fair use rights? Would it be easier to get a refund for a windows 'install' that doesn't work?
Later, I'll tell you the story of the family that had *140 separate instances* of trojans running at the same time...
In general tying laws restrict when a manufacturer may tie in two products without offering the individual products for sale separately as well.
However, as long as we look at "a computer" as the product, a manufacturer may get away with tying without providing a bare box as an option in many countries by pointing to the fact that a consumer has many alternate sources of bare hardware.
On the other hand, though, a manufacturers offering a hardware platform with unique capabilities would have bigger problems doing this, as a consumer could claim that the manufacturer was utilizing it's monopoly in the manufacture of that specific hardware to pressure him/her to buy a product they don't want or need.
Various countries have wildly different laws here, but assuming that manufactureres are automatically free to decide what their system is made up of is wrong almost everywhere.
(ObDisclaimer: IANAL)
I've always had IBM (IBM as in I've Built Mine) machines, so I never had a windows to refund.
if I ever buy a notebook, I'll try to:
1- buy with linux pre-installed
2- buy one with _NO_ OS whatsoever.
if that's not possible, I'll use brasilian law, that forbides forced bundles such as this, and make them sell the machine without an OS.
Now, the big question.
i installed linux in a compaq iPaq. anyone succeeded in geting a refund for winCE ?
What ? Me, worry ?
Now, since what you bought was actually a copyrighted item, not a licensed item (after all, were you presented with a licensing agreement at the time of sale? Didn't think so. And those EULAs don't count - they're an attempt to impose a license after after the sale) you can do whatever you want with it, except make copies in violation of the copyright.
Buy the machine with XP, install linux, and sell your copy of XP to whomever you want. They're free to register it, or not.
If you don't believe me, google the quebec consumer protection act,
Fortunatly that would hold no water in other countries (I assume all of europe, I know in the UK). If you can show that the product they sold you (the laptop) is defective, they have to repair/replace it. No quibbles, no arguments, no get outs. The only argument they could have is that you caused the damage by improper use (i.e. by installing linux). Send that to The Register and wait for your new laptop to arrive by fedex ;)
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
yeah; this is true. I ran in to this when I had a hard drive failure (it was a physical problem - i heard clunks and other dying hdd noises). The Toshiba techs wouldn't troubleshoot unless I could get my linux partition blown away and run the restore CD - impossible since the drive was failing. They insisted on running scandisk and getting bad block reports three times (which amounted to more than five since the one tech deleted all my previous entries.
By the time it was over I'd spent three weeks running scandisk continuously (because it takes like a day and a half to run when it finds bad sectors). I was down my only computer for over four weeks, right before finals week, too. And the techs were mostly idiots, except for the one fellow I talked to who helped me out a lot.
This has probably been stated 100 times already on this thread, but the Microsoft license specifically states that if you don't agree to its terms, you can return it for a full refund. If your Nissan engine came with such an agreement, why wouldn't you expect to be able to return it?
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
Buying a laptop (or just about anything really) without seeing, touching, holding it first is right out. Do I like the way the keyboard is setup? Does it feel like 10 year olds put it together with plastic screws? Will the display hinge break in 3 weeks? I shop around, feel things out, and then I purchase.
For me this is why the Windows refund is important. If I happen to like the Sony VAIO series (which I do, 3 lbs laptops are important to the constant traveller) I should not have to spend money on an OS I will not use just for the privilege. But for me it is more than that. I do not want a license for Windows. Why let a corporation declare me as one of their users?
Somebody earlier made a car analogy. I actually quite like it. The OS is an add-on, like leather seats or the nifty Bose sound system. On most models of car you can opt not to have them. Just like a cigarette lighter. Yes some of the high end systems "force" you to purchase the leather but in general people buying them do not mind. But there are reasonable models available otherwise. In laptops we either buy sight unseen from unknown web vendors or we go to the nice store and buy what we like.
Personally I would not mind waiting 3 weeks for a laptop if it came configured how I like so it is not the immediate nature of the store or the purchase constraining me. It is the lack of real choice.
Show me a 3 to 3.5 lb. laptop (with a battery, one of the models mentioned in the comments here did not support an internal battery) that I can buy sans OS or with some version of Linux. Then point out some vendor who carries them in real stores and not just in faceless online retailers.
For desktops I have always built my own. Even used to work at a place that built customs for people (OS was always an option). It is specifically laptops that are the annoyance because we are forced to treat them like a Lexus.
(As a side note I understand that many OEMs were charged a mere 25 US cents for Windows 95 when it came out. So yes, this is more than just money here.)
SSSssshh!!
.exe files. I know the gamerz are used to that, but just ask Cadence how impossible this can be made if a vendor _really_ puts his heart into it.
Do NOT tell the Empire about _that_.
I work full-time wrangling FLEXlm license keys & reports for/from CAD software license servers, and let me tell you you do NOT want the Empire to resort to such a licensing model.
#1 problem: You'll _never_ get the keys to the "software" you'll pay for. They'll be kept in Redmond, and you'll have to activate your software over the Internet, every time you use it. The Empire will then know _exactly_ when and how and to some extent where you use your computer. Local key servers run by the end-user will require proof that you _can't_ get the machine on the Internet, and could be very strictly controlled.
#2 problem: You won't crack the (2048 bit) keys, either. Your only chance will be to hack the
You do NOT want the Empire to go to a CAD/CAE-tool style, probably FLEXlm based, licensing model! PTC _may_ work with their customers. The monopolist has demonstrated that _they_ don't have to.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
If you find a HP/Compaq/Toshiba/Dell/IBM/Sony branded laptop that has linux preinstalled, it means that the vendor paid for windows and removed it.
This makes me think of a quite interesting case from an industrial management course I took. At first stuff about B2C then B2B (B=Business, C=Consumer for those who don't know TLAs=three-letter-acronyms) and finally as an example of something the web can bring C2B: Some guy had set up a web site that he wanted to buy a Volvo (I don't remember the model) and asked if there were others interested in the same car and if so, asked them to contact him. After a while 2000 people signed up and he called Volvo and asked for the price of 2000 such cars - they did get quite a bargain. So that might work with big brand laptops as well. I wonder what Dell might say if you call them and ask the price for 2000 laptops with no OS...?
Karma. Moderation. Is my
I know I'm a bit late to this debate, but I think I have an effective solution. It goes like this:
The beauty of this scheme is that you are not really giving up on anything, but you are still making a big difference. It works even when you are not really in charge of the purchase, like when purchasing on behalf of your company, family or friends.
I think that if enough people did this, some of the vendors that are most desperate to grow profits and/or market share will cave in to the pressure. Therefore, keep that in mind when selecting the second-choice vendor ;-).
Please let me know what do you think about it.
S
..last summer had an aquaintance of mine purchase a shrink wrapped XP box off the shelf at his local retailer. He opened the box, but hadn't installed it yet when he started actually reading about XP and decided he didn't want it. So he tries to return it, first try was a no go, they refused, as the shrinkwrap was opened. He asked me, I said go back and complain that you had no way to read the eula until you opened it, that you didn't agree with it, and never installed it, which was the plain simple truth. He goes back, argued that point at the service desk, mentioned he just might want to take it to court, gets the store manager finally, runs the same thing past him, and the upshot was he got his full money back.. I don't know if this is common or not and I know it isn't relevant to a bundled package with a new computer, but still goes to show it's possible at least.
What people should try to do is buy a laptop, wait a year or two without using it, then return it to the retailer for a full purchase price.
When the terms of the 'package' are not given up front, time should not matter in returning it, right?
If this works, I'm sure retailers would start to question the EULA, when they take the $2k hit.