Mandrake News

DCowern writes "Mandrake yesterday released their FY2001-2002 earnings and I'm glad to say it's looking real good for them. They've cut operating costs by 42% and increased revenues by 31%. They're still not quite in the black yet but they're expecting to break even month-to-month beginning in February. The full report is here. In other news, Mandrake announced two new programs yesterday. The first is Multi Network Firewall, which looks like an extremely nice package for running small to medium-sized networks. The second program, and my favorite, is their "OS refugee" offer."

Comments

Question.

[yobbo]

How much revenue did Mandrake Charity contribute?

Re:Question.

[MasterOfMagic]

Ask not what MandrakeClub can do for you, but what you can do for MandrakeClub.

But seriously, what good is Microsoft's computer aid to children who don't have food, clean drinking water, and an education. Someone enlighten me on this...

Re:Question.

[Call Me Black Cloud]

The first rule of MandrakeClub is - you do not talk about MandrakeClub.

The second rule of MandrakeClub is - you DO NOT talk about MandrakeClub.

Your MS comment is a straw man and certainly overgeneralized. If they didn't give at you'll you'd bitch about that. A quick search turned up this and more generally this

And in case you miss it, here is a more direct link to their Annual Report of Giving.

Re:Question.

[whereiswaldo]

Interesting definition of "Straw Man argument":

The key points here that make it a Straw Man Argument are these:

1. Someone #1 makes a statement.

2. Someone #2 mis-uses that statement to draw an invalid conclusion.

3. Someone #2 uses their invalid conclusion as the basis for refuting
contrary arguments (or other goals).

From here.

Re:Question.

[Call Me Black Cloud]

Other straw man definitions that may be clearer:

The author attacks an argument which is different from, and usually weaker than, the opposition's best argument. ref

...it relies on the creation of a false image of someone else's statements, ideas, or beliefs. ref

Parent said: ...what good is Microsoft's computer aid to children who don't have food, clean drinking water, and an education.

To use your definition:

1. MS donates computers/software to 3rd world countries
2. "What good is Microsoft's computer aid to children who don't have food, etc?"
3. The implication (attack) is MS doesn't provide aid in these areas

Record breaking bandwidth..

[PFAK]

bankrupts MandrakeSoft after slashdot, a OSDN news site posts a link to MandrakeSoft causing excessive bandwidth usage and financial loss.

Re:Record breaking bandwidth..

[n3m6]

slashdotted jokes are doesn't seem too funny anymore!

Thank you.

Good For Them

[dirkdidit]

Mandrake is one of the best Linux distro's for new users and I feel it's a vital part in getting more people turned onto Linux. I was worried for a while that Mandrake might not exist a few years down the road but hopefully this turn toward profitability will continue. And remember, if you use Mandrake, it doesn't hurt to donate some money to them. It is, afterall, the season of giving. :-)

Re:Good For Them

[MasterOfMagic]

And remember, if you use Mandrake, it doesn't hurt to donate some money to them.

I'm sorry, but if I've paid for their PowerPack in a store (which, by the way, it decently priced as far as distros go, AND it includes StarOffice 6.0), I don't feel guilty by not donating or joining MandrakeClub. For some reason, after leaving the "other" operating system behind, I don't feel it necessary to pay twice for an operating system.

Re:Good For Them

[dirkdidit]

You have a good point. I should have said that if you downloaded the distro and not bought the PowerPack, it wouldn't hurt to join MandrakeClub and donate a few dollars.

Re:Good For Them

[electromaggot]

Even for experienced users, I think Mandrake is a great distro. If it's easy to install, why does that make it strictly "for newbies"? I'm a developer, not a network admin, and personally I'd rather spend my time progging than editing .conf files and troubleshooting my network (my past Debian installs come to mind as I say that).

I just installed Mandrake's MNF on a system yesterday and it was cake to set up! Especially after I almost threw my P200 box out the window because the Red Hat 8.0 (Server) Install kept crashing on it (and RH 7.2 didn't seem to be stable either). This Mandrake MNF seems to be rock solid.

Mandrake is great. I'm gonna start sending them money. I hope they make it.

Re:Good For Them

[Malor]

If you buy the CD from anyone but Mandrake directly, they only get about half of the money. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, because if distributors and retailers are making money from Linux, it'll get more shelf space. But I don't really think Linux NEEDS to be on the shelf all that much yet... it's getting to be a pretty okay desktop, but it's not ready for Mom to install on her own. It's Mom-ready after it has been installed, but the geeks who know how to install it also know how to find it online. :-)

Seems to me that the basic membership ($5/mo) is a nice way to give them a steady revenue stream, which is important for software businesses.

I downloaded the OS, so so I felt a bit obligated to subscribe. I got StarOffice 6.0 as well, because I subscribed at the silver level. ($10/mo or $115/year.) As long as I keep getting bennies that are worth it, I'll keep resubscribing at that level, but I will renew at least a basic membership for as long as I keep using the distro.

It just seems like the right thing to do.

Re:Good For Them

[npietraniec]

Um, Mandrake isn't a "not for profit" company. Why don't you donate some money to Ford, GE, or Microsoft while you're at it... That's the dumbest thing I've seen all day (although it is 2am)

Re:Good For Them

[Sneftel]

If Ford were developing a really cool car that I wanted, and might not be able to stay afloat financially without outside help, yeah, I might donate.

Re:Good For Them

[Afrosheen]

You should donate to them because all the code they generate is open source. Actually there isn't one piece of software in their Download Edition of 9.0 that isn't opensource and free. They're strong believers where other distros are tending to hide their contributions.

Also, they let you leech all their ISO's free of charge. Try doing that with Xandros, Lindows, or any of the other 'new and improved desktop distros'. All they ask is that you have a heart and give them a few bucks so their developers can eat and they can pay for their bandwidth.

Re:Good For Them

[Martigan80]

getting more people turned onto Linux

Why should this be the main focus? I mean trying to make it user friendly-fine that's a great idea to appeal to the non-Linux user, but I don't think a lot of effort should be focused on actively trying to get users converted. Because the one thing that will start happening, and we have seen RedHat do it, is that they will start catering to these users, ex-windows users who are used to getting things their way by complaining about this or that. Users who have been using Linux for two years but still can't use lp in the CLI. This is not meant as a lash out or an insult, just a question of motive. If you bring too many of these half users on board you will ask for allot more than you have ever bargained for, and will start making a distro to make it easier for them, and focus less on the real applications.

Re:Good For Them

[npietraniec]

You seem to forget that they are a BUSINESS. Donate to debian, purchase services from Mandrake.

I'm actually a member of a mandrake club... Oh the irony.

Re:Good For Them

[MasterOfMagic]

Seems to me that the basic membership ($5/mo) is a nice way to give them a steady revenue stream, which is important for software businesses.

A membership of this sort would be great if they were a non-profit company. While I agree that they do good work, it is their job to become profitable. It's not my job to support their work or pay twice for an OS or product I've already paid for.

If you buy the CD from anyone but Mandrake directly, they only get about half of the money.

Note to all: This is why you should buy directly from Mandrake.

Re:Good For Them

[MasterOfMagic]

I mean trying to make it user friendly-fine that's a great idea to appeal to the non-Linux user, but I don't think a lot of effort should be focused on actively trying to get users converted.

I agree. People should use Linux because they like Linux, not because Linux can be made to look like Windows.

[rant] I tried to set up a Red Hat box for someone. Big mistake. Not only did they not understand what was going on, but with all of the GUI cruft on top, any time they tried to tweak something, they ended up overwriting my customizations. Now, I'm not against GUI tools, but when a GUI tool is too stupid to keep settings that are hand entered, then it's not the right way to do something. Or, at least, it should ask confirmation. I ended up setting up a Debian box, and I ssh into it to maintain it for them if something goes wrong.[/rant]

Re:Good For Them

[geekoid]

FIrst off, its not leeching, second, the poster said he BOUGHT his copy. IF you are selling something, and it costs more to make then you are selling it for, well...goodbye.

Re:Good For Them

[zenyu]

Um, Mandrake isn't a "not for profit" company. Why don't you donate some money to Ford, GE, or Microsoft while you're at it... When Ford and GE start giving away cars, and Microsoft GPL's their software I might consider donating. Mandrake isn't asking for donations anyway, they still allow you to make donations. But as someone working for a not-for-profit I think that makes sense because institutions often have to transfer money in a certain way for accounting purposes. "not-for-profit" and "non-profit" are just labels, a not-for-profit can own a commercial company, they just don't have shareholders to pay dividends to and can't bribe politicians. A "non-profit" is a more restricted entity, it can't have profits for too long before losing it's status.

The only real reason to start an entity as a not-for/non-profit is if you expect the tax deduction on donations to get you more money, and you won't ever need political support. Mandrake is in France, I don't even know if a charity donation is tax-deductable there. Most donations are small and in cash anyway, so the tax deduction isn't really an issue, like it would be if BillG were considering a 6 billion dollar donation in stock that would normally be subject to a 20% gapital gains tax. We all also know Linux and open source in general can use all the political support we can afford to buy.

As long as they are contributing to open source there is nothing wrong with sending donations. Hell, if you're working for a company that makes use of XFS, what's wrong with sending a $50,000 donation to SGI? If you tell them why they might have an easier time justifying the programmer time next time someone wants to port something to Linux there. Think about how you TIP at your local bar; you probably TIP better than you have to for your conscience. You know you will get treated better the next time you come in and might even get a couple buy backs or be told when your favorite beer is a little flat and it's best to order something else.

If you're a programmer it might be better to work on some code. Or, you might know some other organization/person that will spend the money more productively; give your money there then. But if you are using Mandrake, maybe you think they are spending the money well? So what's wrong with giving them more? Is it so different from the time I spend working on OSS? Others use it for profit and it doesn't bother me, I've gotten a lot more value from OSS than my cost in time, writing the code. That code will end up creating a lot more value on other people's collective desks than I lost by working on it.

Nothing wrong with just signing up for MandrakeClub or buying a boxed set either.

Re:Good For Them

[FuegoFuerte]

What do you think people are doing when they buy shares in a company? Same principle. You're giving a certain amount of money to a company with the expectation of something in return. You may donate to Mandrake, Slackware, or any other software company with the expectation that that company will continue to provide you with great software, or you may purchase stock in Ford, GM, Trojan, BigCloudFromOuterSpaceCorp, etc. with the expectation that whichever company will use the money to continue (or in some cases, such as IPOs, be able to start) providing you with a product you value (and often financial return). Either way, you're funding a company so they can operate.

Re:Good For Them

[Zork the Almighty]

Microsoft Certified System Mom (MCSM)

It would fit right in with the Microsoft Certified System Enfants. Yeah, I had to kludge it, but don't we all sometimes...

Re:Good For Them

[Idou]

Five elements of Present Value Measurement:

1. The price for bearing uncertainty

2. Expectations about timing variations of future cash flows

3. other factors (e.g., liquidity issues and market imperfections)

4. time value of money (the risk-free rate of interest)

5 estimate of future cash flow

(Becker Conviser CPA Review)

The present value of money is the most basic element of the financial market. Companies need cash to operate and steady revenue to negotiate loans. This is why you do Mandrake more of a favor by becoming a club member and buying the CD at cheapbytes than just buying the packet, by itself.

No reason to feel guilty about "donating." However, a basic grasp of present values and revenue recognition might enable you to optimize your support of, imho, the world's best distro.

Re:Good For Them

[leviramsey]

It's not my job to support their work or pay twice for an OS or product I've already paid for.

That's the case if you bought a boxed distro... then there's no real point in joining the Club (well, there are certain other privileges that you get, though whether they're worth it is questionable).

However, someone that downloads an ISO or performs a network install should, imho, join the Club.

Re:Good For Them

[thelen]

I'm a developer, not a network admin

Same here. I just wanted a desktop that would enable me to do my work, not qualify as a part-time job to use. I've been running MDK 9 for about 8 weeks now, and I've booted into Win2k about twice during that whole time. In contrast, when my Linux partition was RH 7.2 I spent the bulk of my time under Windows b/c the RH desktop was so cluttered with redundant (many non-functional) menus, terrible multimedia capabilities, printing didn't work.

You could say MDK is for newbies, but another way of putting it is that they made some tough choices and cut a lot of bs that end users shouldn't have to deal with. If you want tighter control over your system, use Debian or Gentoo or something. I simply needed a working desktop, and Mandrake did a great job providing it.

Re:Good For Them

[bhsx]

Why should this be the main focus?
Because MandrakeSoft is a business, a publicly-traded one in fact. They need to keep heading in the money-making direction and the only way to do that is to attract ex-Windows users. There are a finite number of current Linux users, certainly not enough to keep even a few of the current businesses afloat. So, they can try to attract the current Linux users, many of whom are already paying customers; but many of whom are migrating towards a grassroots gentoo-esque distribution and away from the businesses. So how do you keep afloat trying to compete with Windows? By concentrating on getting more people turned onto Linux, or specifically, Linux-Mandrake.

Re:Good For Them

[Jucius Maximus]

"It's Mom-ready after it has been installed, but the geeks who know how to install it also know how to find it online. :-)"

True, but not all people who know where to download it have a fat broadband connection ;-)

It is for this reason, plus the five other CDs of goodies that I bought the Mandrake Powerpack 8.2 edition. Even if all CDs were available online, it would take me ages to download it over my measly 28.8 connection. (There is nothing better where I live.)

Re:Good For Them

[Ed Avis]

I'd sign up for the membership if you got anything valuable in return.

Mandrake has the active 'Cooker' distribution containing recent versions of many packages, and providing a good opportunity to report bugs (especially since, as I mentioned elsewhere in this discussion, they seem to object to anyone filing bugs against the stable distribution). But it is impossible to keep up with Cooker development unless you have a fast network connection.

For $50 a year surely they could burn a CD every two weeks with the latest Cooker packages and post it to you? Plus maybe the latest errata packages for the stable distribution.

The current MandrakeClub options seem to involve paying money in order to get a discount on proprietary software. Somehow, paying MandrakeSoft to act as a middleman so I can get a discount on StarOffice doesn't appeal to me.

Re:Good For Them

[HiThere]

Basically, I agree with you. But I do think that they need to work a bit harder at QA.

Re:Good For Them

[imr]

The current MandrakeClub options involves paying money in order to support mandrake, a true to free software ideals compagny.
THEN, we also might get some services in return like those you ask for, or like those discounts.
Personnaly, it's a way to pay them back for those mandrake distros i got from magazine cds or from internet downloads.

Wow..

[ryochiji]

>They've cut operating costs by 42% and increased revenues by 31%

That's impressive. Except...they're still not profitable? Wow. They must've been screwing up big time before.

It's still nice to hear some good news for once I guess.

Re:Wow..

[Afrosheen]

Their previous CEO and his cronies wanted to take Mandrake in a radically different direction. They tried making inroads into educational software and POP software, kiosk stuff, etc. Just some really creative but ultimately terrible decisions.

Ask Enron or anyone else victimized by retarded management how hard it is to make a comeback. Without it's userbase standing by, I'm sure Mandrake would've gone tits up this summer.

OS Refugees....

[tgrotvedt]

After my brief stint recently with a friend's laptop running Win ME (no memory management just like 98), I think I'd prefer the term "asylum seeker".

OS Refugee Offer

[MasterOfMagic]

Reading the OS Refugee Offer, I think it's a great idea. Personally, if they had an idea like that when I was shopping around for distros (metaphorically speaking) I would have gone for that offer in a heartbeat. Now only of Red Hat and SuSE (especially SuSE) did this, we might have some competition with Windows for PHBs. (Of course, the undisputed king of distros shall be unnamed at this time to avoid starting a flamewar. It suffices to say that it is free and always will be.)

Re:OS Refugee Offer

[mrscorpio]

Gentoo, right? ;)

Chris

Re:OS Refugee Offer

[MasterOfMagic]

Well, if Gentoo starts with a D, then yes. Otherwise, it's that "other" free distro that gave Gentoo some of its direction and its social contract. :-)

Re:OS Refugee Offer

[Afrosheen]

Did it also get it's ease of installation and configuration from that D distro? LOL

Re:OS Refugee Offer

[Afrosheen]

"something more than just the CD should be offered..."

I totally agree. I've been telling Mandrake for years we need some freakin' bumper stickers.

Re:OS Refugee Offer

[HiThere]

If you are going to lowball it, I think I would prefer to get my distribution from CheapBytes. That's partially because they are fairly local, and shipping time is about a day. They'll sell you boxed sets or burned CDs, your preference. At corresponding prices. (A large selection of linux versions, both old and new. Several of the old versions are going for what has to be less than the production cost, but of course those ARE old versions).

Cost

[Trusty Penfold]

Who would pay $30 for Linux when you can download Windows XP for free?

Re:Cost

[npietraniec]

A better question might be "who would want to run XP for free when you could run linux for 30 bucks?" Not me, but flame away.

Wait, what am I talking about, I run linux for free...

Good News

[fozzy(pro)]

I often find myself in Discussions wondering why Linux hasn't taken off due its good qualities. I often get referred to complexity of use, difficulty of installation, and Microsoft using its powers of Gigantism. These are all somewhat true. But, I always have felt that part of it was poor management in the major distribution companies. I am glad to see Linux cleaning up their offices and will be happy to see a switch occur. I am also glad to see Mandrake doing well as it is very easy to use and install making it a better choice for average users.

The other thing I would like to see happen with all the Linux companies is to organize a general lobbying group to challenge MS's marketing force. To challenge the public and government perceptions of the system. Alliances with PC Manufactures would come with demand. The final thing needed is solid development efforts by manufacturers to support hardware in Linux. I feel lack of driver support killed Be which had a really solid OS. BSD was hardly moving on the workstation market until OS X hit and many Apple folks switched voluntarily, and the others are being forced to now even though they don't like the change.

Regardless Best of Luck to Mandrake and the Linux market in General.

Re:Good News

[MasterOfMagic]

The other thing I would like to see happen with all the Linux companies is to organize a general lobbying group to challenge MS's marketing force. To challenge the public and government perceptions of the system.

I think that this could be a Good Thing (TM). However, just showing the governement that something is technically superior is not enough. There are such things as legacy systems. A business evaluates (or should evaluate) a plan to change something in its computer infrastructure based on technical merits and capital needed to get its legacy systems to change. Somehow, I think getting a lot of their older systems working with Linux will be easier than getting them to work with Windows. However, what would the cost be for them to convert many of their Windows desktop machines to Linux desktop machines running Mandrake or Red Hat or any other distribution? I somehow think that it will be a little more expensive.

The final thing needed is solid development efforts by manufacturers to support hardware in Linux.

I think it will be a pretty cold day in hell before you see every piece of consumer hardware come with Linux drivers as well as Windows drivers. Why? Because (say it with me now) it's cheaper to develop, maintain, and support drivers on one operating system as opposed to developing, maintaining, and supporting them on many operating systems. For example, take HomePNA devices. For awhile, they were popular with Windows users when 802.11b was very expensive. There exists a binary only Linux driver, and it doesn't work correctly with the kernel when you compile the glue code with gcc-3.2. Why haven't they been updated? Nobody knows or cares enough about the internals of the devices to update the code, and the company that wrote them doesn't want to give out the specs for the devices.

I personally use Linux all of the time, but until there is a giant attitude change (or hell freezes over, or Microsoft licensing terms become more strict than now), I don't think I'll see this soon. I'm okay with that. I use Linux not because it's popular, but because I like and appreciate choice in operating systems.

Re:Good News

[s390]

The other thing I would like to see happen with all the Linux companies is to organize a general lobbying group to challenge MS's marketing force.

Well, there's the Open Source Software Institute that lobbies for Open Source in government and academic organizations.

Some vendors are low-profile sponsors. I believe they also accept individual donations, which are tax-deductible because they're a non-profit.

Re:Good News

[geek of nixhelp]

As regular slashdoters (is that the correct term?) will know, more and more factions are adopting linux as opposed to windows, governments and councils are the best example we have, they are finding the cost is what drives them to it, but (assuming they have the same experience as me) it's the ease of use and sheer number of open source applications that keeps me using it. I would (and have done) pay for Linux, I own real copies of Mandrake 7.2 and Slack 8. these days the myth of hard to install, and hard to maintain is just that, a myth! my mandrake 9 install detected every bit of obscure hardware in one go, it even managed the GeForce 4, which I was suitably impressed with. I think the main problem is that people expect too much from it, as we sit here running our Linux servers and playing the occasional game, we forget about people who have Sony vaio laptops and want all the buttons to function properly :) it's the little things that make the difference, and since we all know that Linux can do everything windows does better, cheaper and faster, this is all it needs to drive I into the main stream. Good to see money being made here. lets just hope this drive forward doesn't cause open source software to go commercial, I don't know what I would do if nmap wasn't free :)

Re:Good News

[Malcontent]

" I often find myself in Discussions wondering why Linux hasn't taken off due its good qualities"

Just exactly what do you mean by "hasn't taken off"? Linux userbase grows by leaps and bounds every year. It has gone from a hobby OS to a major player in the server market in three years. It will make similar advances in the desktop in the next three years.

Rome wasn't built in a day you know. If you are really impatient for world dominance then I am sure lots of programmers could use your help in writing documentation and testing for bugs. Roll up your sleeves world domination is but a few years away!

Re:Good News

[Eric Damron]

"we forget about people who have Sony vaio laptops and want all the buttons to function properly:) it's the little things that make the difference..."

You hit the nail right on the head there. We must must make every effort to ensure that everything works and is easy to setup. It's not always going to be possible to support every piece of hardware as there are companies who will not release the needed information.

However, We can improve in a number of ways. First of all, much of the documentation that comes with open source software really sucks. I'm an IT professional and I struggle with it. I don't see how a non-IT person would stand a chance with some of this crap. I understand that documenting a project is not fun. I hate documenting my own work but I also know that it is a very important part of a project.

Another thing that we should move toward is a standard set of libraries that all programmers can count on being there. And the API should not become incompatible from one release to another without a very good reason.

The developers of libraries should allow other developer's to purchase a license (at a reasonable price) that would allow them to link and still keep their code proprietary. I believe that some offer this but at a price of about $1,200.00. This would be an insignificant cost for a major software company if the Linux platform would support the kind of return that would allow justification. However, Linux, as of yet, doesn't have a large enough user base that is willing to pay for programs to make this price justifiable.

Joysticks should be better supported and fonts still have a way to go.

I use Linux at home for my desktop and home server but I think that we are a number of years away before Linux will be truly ready for the average home user.

Re:Good News

[Tony-A]

It takes time. There's the matter not just *what* to do, but *when* to do it. Most things run pretty much on inertia.

Perception has a lot to do with it. Linux on the desktop as a mere replacement for Microsoft Windows seems like a waste of valuable resources, and out of character for what Linux should grow up to be. Somewhere, somehow there is something that a Linux desktop should be good for that Microsoft *cannot* compete with. I have no idea what, but it's probably related to the fact that Unix is inherently multi-user and Microsoft seems to have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time, even for relatively unsophisticated single users.

There is a shifting sense of (can't find the word for it) exemplified by the following joke that seems to be making the rounds.

There are four engineers traveling in a car. One is a
mechanical engineer, one a chemical engineer, one an
electrical engineer and the other one an engineer
from Microsoft.

The car breaks down.

"Sounds to me as if the pistons have seized. We'll have
to strip down the engine before we can get the car
working again," says the mechanical engineer.

"Well," says the chemical engineer, "it sounded to me as
if the fuel might be contaminated. I think we should
clear out the fuel system."

"I thought it might be a grounding problem," says the
electrical engineer, "or maybe a faulty plug lead."

They all turn to the Microsoft engineer who has said
nothing and say. They ask him, "What do you think?"

"Well, I think we should close all the windows, get
out, get back in, and open the windows again."

Re:Good News

[electroniceric]

There's something a lot simpler keeping Linux off the desktop: inertia.

Companies very quickly reach a saturation stage in computing where the number of things they could do dwarfs their resources to do them and dilutes their mission. Microsoft offers them a clear path. Buy this now, but that later. It may seems counterintuitive to pay the MS tax and deal with the intense aggravation of CALs, but recall, most companies have money, and they're happy to pay it to not have to pay someone every 20 minutes to research what to do next.

This especially applies to the desktop. Consider that most office drones' salaries are above $20/hr when you include support costs, and $100 a year comes out to 5 hours of work. It's pretty hard to get the time-to-conversion down to 5 hours or less per employee, so naturally businesses are hesitant to commit to that big a change of direction. Not to mention that IT departments seem to rapidly converge into a heady mic of territoriality, and fending off the additions of all sorts of extra projects.

I certainly hope that Mandrake does well - I think they make a nice alternative for filling in those not well served by MS' pricing and license model: schools, small business, developing countries etc. I'd expect enough incremental progress in the needed desktop apps that in two years desktop Linux will be a reasonable alternative for small businesses with less need for polished interoperability features. Microsoft will probably remain a considerable force (noone else in the world has the experience of building a software house that big), which could turn out to be positive once their iron grip is broken. If you look at the slow march, things look good for a positive software environment. Now if only the BSDs and Linux would cooperate more, the spectrum of Unix would offer even better choice.

Re:Good News

[Malcontent]

" It takes time. There's the matter not just *what* to do, but *when* to do it. Most things run pretty much on inertia."

maybe most things run on inertia but clearly linux is not one of them. It's under very active development and improvements come at an amazing pace. Two years ago linux did not support SMP. The next version of the kernel will be avble to support more processors then most people can afford.

"Linux on the desktop as a mere replacement for Microsoft Windows seems like a waste of valuable resources, and out of character for what Linux should grow up to be. Somewhere, somehow there is something that a Linux desktop should be good for that Microsoft *cannot* compete with."

On this I agree with you 100%. Linux has a bigger and better destiny then to mimic some crappy OS that consists of stolen ideas from other operating systems. Windows is the worst thing linux can attempt to emulate.

I remain optimistic that the tens of thousands of people working in and around the OSS projects will one day stumble upon an idea that will shake the world. I look at zope, mozilla and jabber and see that it is already happening to some degree. Innovation is out there and clearly the OSS people are creative as hell.

IN CAPITALIST AMERICA

[Anonymous Coward]

THE OS FORCES YOU TO UPGRADE.

Why I will continue to support Mandrake

[salvius]

MAndrake is still the OS I use, and this will continue to be so. It is the first distribution that made me convert from Windows. When I saw it, I couldn't believe the EASE of installation and the user-friendliness of the whole package. Regardless of the fact that even distros like Red Hat are getting easier to use, this is still the *only* distro which I can give to my non-convert friends. I have done this for a few people now while advising them which computer to buy, and ALL of them never needed help. Mandrake is just what the doctor ordered to show that Linux CAN be user friendly. It is one of the distros that definetely deserves all the support it can get!

Thankfully not mature

[A non moose cow]

Pulled my Mandrake from my shelf and it started wailing such a shrill scream that I almost passed out. The mature distro surely would have killed me.

</potter>

Given up on Mandrake

[phutureboy]

I used to be a big Mandrake fan-boy, but no longer. All I want is system configuration tools that work, and have a decent, consistent user interface. Is that too much to ask for?

I tried to add a second IP address to my machine the other day using the GUI admin tools provided in Mandrake 9, and it was a total mess. I ended up just editing the files in /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts, which is what I should have done in the first place. Desktop users shouldn't have to deal with that, though.

I'm gonna give Xandros a spin next. Seems like a pretty well integrated desktop distro they have.

Re:Given up on Mandrake

[reaper20]

Me too, their 8.x series was embarrassing. To quote someone off of IRC:

MDK's QA Process:

Guy #1: "Is this the latest version of the software? I mean the very latest?"

Guy #2: "Yeah, except this one package, it had some bug I think, so we just created the package from CVS and we think it might be fixed there."

Guy #1: "Ok, burn the gold CD!"

Re:Given up on Mandrake

[zenyu]

I tried to add a second IP address to my machine the other day using the GUI admin tools provided in Mandrake 9, and it was a total mess. I ended up just editing the files in /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts, which is what I should have done in the first place. Desktop users shouldn't have to deal with that, though.

I started on Mandrake with 7.something, and I've been disappointed with their QA since, but this particular problem I solved with netconf. I'm sticking with Mandrake though. I installed RedHat on a server the a few months ago because I wanted a rock solid machine and I encountered the same problem that made me switch, too many "wha? there is no package, I have to install from source?"

I like the changes they made with their UI last time around, they just need to fix some of the bugs in the X configuration and maybe add a "download and install nVidia/ATI commercial driver" button. And more important, cope with more than one mouse. I encouraged a non-technical coworker to install Mandrake on his laptop -- instead of the supported RedHat. The mouse problem was his biggest hickup, the others were the need to install things like Java, Flash, Acrobat, and the Crossover plugin by command-line. Once he got going Mandrake was something he could administer himself, although I wish he downloaded patches more often...

Re:Given up on Mandrake

[Afrosheen]

Just a little note on your troubles.

The Nvidia drivers come with the commercial boxed cd's, the download edition can't pack them for licensing reasons. Dunno about the ATI drivers.

Also there's a new mandrake flash6 rpm out there somewhere, so your pal should have it easy.

Re:Given up on Mandrake

[joestar]

Mandrake has a clean and rather consistent user interface. Additionally, they don't break KDE & GNOME like Red Hat does. Furthermore, Mandrake is *STILL* the leading desktop OS in my opinion: MandrakeUpdate is a great tool and works very well, their configuration tools are also great, and supermount is really what we need for a desktop OS: I tried Red Hat 8.0 (which is partly broken and unstable by the way), and it's amazing to see that they want to be on the desktop but they keep your cd-rom locked in its tray until you click on "unlock" or type "umount". That's the kinf of thing Mandrake has been working on and solved for years and I'm pretty confident that they will continue to be a leader in this area. They just miss a better set of icon and a good Mandrake theme, which is a very easy task...

Re:Given up on Mandrake

[Ed Avis]

My biggest problem with Mandrake is the lack of any sensible system for reporting bugs. Their Bugzilla at https://qa.mandrakesoft.com/ is for the unstable 'Cooker' release only. So you can report bugs for the version that's expected to be buggy, but not for the stable version! WTF?

I still use Mandrake though because it seems to have a good selection of packages and I haven't yet recovered from the trauma of trying to install Debian a few years back. The administration packages for Mandrake are totally broken, as you would expect, but I'm happy to edit config files anyway.

These desktop distros like Xandros and Lycoris sound nice: which ones of them are free software?

Re:Given up on Mandrake

[mickwd]

Well it's not as though your average newbie is going to want to set up two IP addresses for the same machine, is it ?

If you want to set up something like that you've obviously got some level of knowledge about TCP/IP networking (i.e. which packets you want to route via which interface, etc.).

I don't think Mandrake should write GUI tools to support every little tweak a user might want to do. Just provide a GUI interface for the most common, and most useful, functions.

Good luck on finding a GUI facility for doing this on Xandros.

And yes, the Mandrake tools could be improved - when everything works, they work fine, but their handling of error conditions (e.g. timeouts on non-responsive mirror sites) could be improved. But they're getting there.

Mandrake has had some bad QA problems in the past. But here again, they're improving. I've heard lots of complaints that Mandrake 9.0 wasn't much of an "advance" on 8.2. But is far is I'm concerned, they updated a lot of software (KDE 3, Gnome 2, etc.) and put out a much more solid release.

And all this while having the number of people they employ cut quite drastically.

So hats off to Mandrake. (including red ones ;)

Re:Given up on Mandrake

[ShieldW0lf]

Couldn't agree more.

I'm a linux newbie. Not an IT newbie, not an idiot. I can and will figure out how to do it the hard way if I have to.

If you're going to put in a config applet, make the damned thing work or leave it out. I don't want to waste half an hour or (much) more trying to figure out how to get your broken tool to work before I start learning how to do it the hard way.

Long path... I can handle that. Dead end paths all over the place... damn, I'd rather use Windows.

They've had some problems...

[proxima]

Because my g/f enjoys using Mandrake on her laptop, we decided to buy the 9.0 standard edition for the following reasons:

1.) At the time our internet connection was having issues and 3 isos were not easy to quickly get

2.) We wanted to support Mandrake since they've created an excellent desktop distribution.

We got our copy just fine in mid-November, but then about three weeks later we got another copy. I e-mailed them and they said it was a mistake but in the end we cost Mandrake more money than I would've liked. Both packages were sent to a U.S. from Europe - not cheap. One would think they'd have a warehouse here, but maybe it's for tax purposes. They mentioned in their e-mail that they've had some shipping problems, so I'm probably not the only one.

I'm not sure how we'll support Mandrake in the future...for her, I think a small subscription fee for a dedicated update server would work well. She'd be getting value-added software (because it's faster to download), and Mandrake would get money that was a bandwidth + server cost, not shipping + packaging.

At the end of the day, I am a happy Debian user.

Re:They've had some problems...

[proxima]

I gave a few bucks to Mandrake before MandrakeClub existed, and they gave me a free entry subscription for about a year I think (it's just about to expire). Thing is, it isn't quite worth the $5/month to us (yet). I'll keep my eye on it, and if they provide a fast update server (like Red Hat), they'll probably see at least $60/yr from us.

IN LIBERAL AUSTRALIA

[nihilogos]

we lock our OS refugees up in camps for years on end. And they're not refugees, they're "illegal immigrants".

Re:IN LIBERAL AUSTRALIA

[ShieldW0lf]

STFU you damned racist. Attitudes like that get us bombed.

Re:IN LIBERAL AUSTRALIA

[nihilogos]

Many of the "asylum seekers" are in fact economic refugees that paid large amounts of money to get here.

Sure. People with large amounts of money to spend are likely to pay for passage on an overcrowded boat with a non trivial chance of sinking when they can afford to pay for plane tickets and visas.

What is the alternative to detention? Release into the community as long as they promise to come back when we reject the claims? Oh wait, 14,000 of them didn't come back when their claims were rejectd... source: yesterday's "The Australian".

No, the source is the immigration department. The Australian article also notes that:

"In September 1997, Philip Ruddock's office had said in response to a question on notice from Democrats senator Natasha Stott Despoja: 'No unauthorised asylum-seeker released on a bridging visa in Australia from 1996 to 1998 failed to meet their reporting obligations.'"

And it also points out that "The executive officer of the Catholic Commission for Justice Development and Peace, Marc Purcell, described the latest figures as 'wildly inaccurate', and demanded that the department clarify them."

Howard's government are liars. Remember "children overboard?" You are a fool if you believe that was an honest mistake.

If you were really a proud Australian you would not put up with the disgraceful behaviour of our "leaders."

The ALP's plan is good, 90% processed with 90 days

It is good, but how practical is it? Currently it takes up to 18 months to process some cases, but it is inhuman to detain people for that long. The alternatives are release on temporary visas, or temporary housing in open compounds where they may be visited by relatives, work and contribute to the community.

Only people that are in genuine need should be able to enjoy Australia's hospitality.

Hospitality? How about the sickening rocks and petrol bombs thrown at mosques and islamic primary schools? The taunts that Muslim women wearing burkhas endure? What sort of hospitality is that supposed to be?

I think Mandrake's problem...

[rsilvergun]

...is the same as a lot of linux distros. When linux was first getting usable and instalable (around the time of RH6.2 IMHO) there was a lot of talk about companies giving the OS away and then charging for support. Well there's at least two problems with this:

1. Users have been paying for software and getting free support so long that they can't seem to deal with the idea of paying for support.

2. I think Sun had this problem with staroffice. They couldn't give it away so they started charging for it. People look at RH and Mandrake's personal editions and see a complete OS with tons of usable apps included for $40 bucks and figure there must be something wrong with it. They can't understand the open source movement and the idea that somebody would write a program for no other reason than the joy of writing it, and then happily give it away. To be fair the the average consumer, look at the sort of "free" things they get for their computers. Cuecats, bonzai buddy, gator. Not exactly encouraging. Slashdot readers know that OSS is totaly different than the kind of nonsense companies give away, but do people at large do?

I don't really have a solution for Mandrake (If I did I'd start a company). I think their best bet would be to get cosy with OEMs and charge them for offering the support. At any rate I wish them the best of luck, but alas for me RH's fonts have drawn me away from Mandrake 9.0 :).

Re:I think Mandrake's problem...

[MadFarmAnimalz]

You don't really make money on support targeted at end-users. You make money on corporate support. There will always be a market there.

End user support has nothing to do with any decent revenue model, actually; completely irrelevant.

Re:I think Mandrake's problem...

[HiThere]

There are several meanings of the term "support". On a Red Hat system, I pay extra for support. I pay it to KRUD. KRUD sends out a monthly CD with all the changes needed to keep your system up to date, so only important security packages need updating in between. I buy a yearly subscription, for not much more than the cost of a boxed Red Hat. (Or less, depending on your edition.)

Red Hat could provide this service, but they don't choose to. They've got a different definition of service, and a different price target. I don't need that. And I haven't ever gotten any use out of the "free service" that you get when you buy a boxed set. ("Sorry, we only cover installation problems.")

That said, I buy a box of Red Hat now and then, because I think I should. I skipped 8.0 because of the way they removed KDE's logos. Not serious, but impolite. I tried Mandrake (I have a surscription), but they have QA problems. And service problems. [There wasn't anyway to let people know that they had shipped me an unreadable set of disks.]). So I can't recommend Mandrake right now. This is probably related to staffing problems, and should clear up in a bit. Hopefully before my subscription runs out. (I wouldn't currently renew.)

But despite the way they have flubbed their subscription process, I think that's the right approach. Sell CD subscriptions, one a month. All the latest updates, and a complete basic system on one CD. (Or two, actually. This doesn't fit on one any more.)

Now the subscription CDs wouldn't contain all the optional packages. (You want it to fit on two CDs!) But they'd be a complete basic system, plus the updates since the last major release. If you were a penny-pinching fool who didn't count his time as worth anything, all you'd need is one of these CD sets, and an internet connection. Of course, then you'd need to figure out what needed updating, what was missing that you wanted, etc.
But if you wanted to go that route, there's Debian, Linux-from-Scratch, Gentoo, etc. That's not what Mandrake's selling. Mandrake's selling a non-problems system that's slick, smooth, and easy to use.

But they need to work on their QA. A lot. (I've gotten more than one of their systems that was so bad I didn't bother trying to salvage it!)

Nothing like Enron

[MasterOfMagic]

Ask Enron or anyone else victimized by retarded management how hard it is to make a comeback.

Don't you mean "Ask the shareholders of Enron how victimized they felt when a company they relied on betrayed them"? I'm sorry, I feel bad for the workers and shareholders of Enron, but this is nothing like Enron. First, Enron managment wasn't retarded: they knew full well what they were doing, and did it anyway. Second, Enron had some help at the federal level to get away with some of its corporate misdeeds. Finally, Enron's employees and customers had no idea what was going on.

Contrast that with Mandrake. The managemnt that you call "retarded" had a different direction for the company that didn't work out. They didn't try to steal from the company, screw the shareholders, or cover their own ass. Secondly, Mandrake has always been supported by its users, be it donations or purchases of its boxed set. Finally, the user base of Mandrake saw where it was going and let the company know that wasn't the way they wanted it to go.

Sorry, somehow I don't see how this was ANYTHING like Enron.

Re:Nothing like Enron

[Afrosheen]

Yeah Enron was the first company killed by management that sprung to mind, and I admit it was a terrible example.

IIRC, the Mandrake users weren't the ones complaining loudly to the new management at the helm there, it was the developers and founders that were pretty concerned about their eroding bottom line. Remember, every CEO has a board that has the right to hire and fire him based on performance or something as petty as his choice of ties.

At any rate, when a company (the workers plus the investors, remember when they went public) isn't doing well, the shareholders and the board get nervous. The board usually tries to fix problems from the top down and make the shareholders a little happier.

I'm still confused as to why they just got a new CEO. Maybe he brings some kind of financial wizardry or business ties to the table..because I read an article today saying how he's 'enjoying learning about Open Source software'. Like he's never heard of it before.

Oh well..at any rate, I'm glad Mandrake is getting healthier. It always has been my favorite distro over the last 3 or 4 years, and it seems to be growing with me.

Where are the $*#&@!!! real financials?

[USC-MBA]

What kind of stunt is Mandrakesoft trying to pull? Having a little timeline chart showing "revenue" and "expenses" by themselves tells us nothing. This is an imortant point, so I shall be a snot and repeat it: MandrakeSoft's little chart tells us nothing.

There are any number of ways for a company's reported revenues to increase, ranging from a genuine increase in sales to more underhanded methods like (for example) reporting certain types of expected future income as present revenues. Likewise, there are any number of ways to show a decrease in expenses on the balance sheet, ranging from honest-to-goodness cost cuts, to sneaky Enron moves like hiding expenses through the use of stock options as executive pay, or dummy subsidiaries.

Don't get me wrong, I am not accusing MandrakeSoft of any wrongdoing, what I am saying is unless we get to see detailed financials, and I mean income and cash flow statements, a balance sheet, and footnotes, MandrakeSoft's rosy financial report is just another press release.

MandrakeSoft's stock price is still off around $1.25 from its high for the year, if they want to get their price up, it would help to get better information to investors.

Re:Where are the $*#&@!!! real financials?

[joestar]

Did you have a look to these figures before posting? I'm not a specialist in finances but it seems the following figures they provide sound "standard" financials at least in Europe:

http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/investors/fina ncials

Re:Where are the $*#&@!!! real financials?

[ninewands]

Buy their stock if you want the details.

Re:Where are the $*#&@!!! real financials?

[leviramsey]

Did you have a look to these figures before posting? I'm not a specialist in finances but it seems the following figures they provide sound "standard" financials at least in Europe:

That's true. Europe's standards of disclosure and accounting make WorldCom, Enron, Global Crossing, et al look like paragons of adequate disclosure. I hesitate to say that any of those stunts would even be illegal if those companies were in the EU.

It's really hilarious to see a European company go into contortions getting its books in order to trade on a US stock exchange (DaimlerChrysler comes to mind).

A thread in a nutshell

[gleffler]

Me: Mandrake sucks, Debian rules!
/.er: Retort about difficulty of installation
Me: Counter-retort about lack of 'free'ness of $DISTRIBUTION
/.er: Counter-counter-retort still about difficulty of installation
/.er 2: "One distribution to rule them all" comment
/.er 3: "Beowulf Cluster" comment
Troll: "You get what you pay for" comment
/.er 4: "Linux will never be on the desktop" manifesto (at least 100K)
{several replies about why Linux WILL TOO be on the desktop, several replies about why Linux isn't ready, and at least 4 people advocating throwing away X}

Yeah, I can now create threads in my head. Who needs to actually *READ* the threads, you can just make them up yourself!

What's with the teeny little fonts...

[aquarian]

...on the Mandrake site? My aging eyes can't deal...

Funny & True

[evil_roy]

This might be offtopic , but it is not a troll.

Actually it is on-topic and funny. Still not a troll.

It is also true. Funny and true like the joke about edison and the lightbulb - the one on The Simpsons.Funny and true

If this is good news...

[melonman]

So this is the most overtly aimed-at-end-users and putting-the-emphasis-on-ease-of-use installation around, and they still can't make money? And this is good news? Is it just me, or are we in the twilight zone?

Surely one of the enormous problems we have with Linux is that no-one seems to be able to make any money out of it. Linux almost bankrupted Corel, and even Redhat distributes the software at a loss. Selling Windows pays, selling Linux manifestly doesn't. As long as that is the case, it is hardly surprising that most distributors don't want to know.

I think one of the things that will have to change if Linux is to get much further in terms of market penetration is the look it didn't cost me a bean mentality. At one point I was going to offer Linux support from my cybercafe. Then I noticed that people with Windows problems expect to pay and ask for a price up front, whereas Linux users expect two hours of my undivided attention and might possibly buy a cup of coffee.

Giving money to Mandrake is nice, but I would suggest that buying a boxed copy from time to time from a non-specialist supplier would do far more to improve the distribution of Linux.

Re:If this is good news...

[Afrosheen]

I guess you missed the last 6 or 7 articles posted here about Mandrake. They ARE making money now, but are still in the red.Over a year ago their CEO and upper management started steering the company into a collision course with the ground. They lost alot of money at that time. They've since been steadily restructuring while cranking out a quality distro at the same time.

The only reason this is news at all is because Mandrake expected to be 'profitable', i.e. higher income than debt, by this time of this year. However, they're still making a comeback.

Might want to do some searching here for Mandrake articles..there's a detailed history behind all this stuff.

Re:If this is good news...

[melonman]

They ARE making money now, but are still in the red

OK, but if we replace 'making money' with 'being profitable', we still seem to end up at the same point, ie this isn't a great incentive to get into their line of business, at least for the moment.

Also, you appear to be describing a major crisis, a restructuring and a recovery, all in less than a year. That might be good, or it might be terrible. They could achieve an operating profit in the short term by firing all their development staff, doing no more publicity and cashing cheques for the stuff they have shipped, but they would be out of business in a year.

If they become profitable, and stay there for a full year, it starts to sound like good news. For the moment, it still sounds like slightly less terrible news than before.

Re:If this is good news...

[dd301]

Linux almost bankrupted Corel

Corel was in trouble even before they moved into Linux. This was at a time when Linux was supposed to be the Silver Bullet.

Redhat distributes the software at a loss

I think Redhat makes a small profit now.

Selling Windows pays, selling Linux manifestly doesn't.

Selling Windows pays for Microsoft and a few large companies. I doubt if you would be successful with a Windows startup right now.

Re:If this is good news...

[melonman]

I think Redhat makes a small profit now

My understanding was that RedHat were making a small profit, but the profits came from support to fairly large corporate customers, not from the distro itself.

Selling Windows pays for Microsoft and a few large companies.

I was more thinking of all the companies who make money (re)selling Windows products. I know plenty of people who make a very nice living installing Windows systems and supporting them, both for end users and companies. From my experiences here in France, I don't think anyone could make money supporting Linux for end users, and I'm not even sure about installing networks: a few companies have tried, and have got some business from schools, govt departments etc, but I'm not sure any of them are still trading.

I doubt if you would be successful with a Windows startup right now

You are certainly right in my case, and probably right in the more general case too. But there are plenty of companies selling solutions for Windows who manage to pay their bills, and not all of them are large: I can think of one company I know with 3 staff that knocks out bespoke solutions based on the Sage accounting package. The only people I can think of who might be making money on Linux are IBM.

Don't forget Mandrake PPC

[plavigna]

MandrakeSoft recently released a new Installation ISO for PPC Cooker. PPC Cooker (which is the development branch) is pretty sweet right now -- it's got GNOME2, KDE 3.1 RC5, Mac-on-Linux (which supports Mac OS X and OS 9) and lots of other goodies.

Anyone who's got a Mac is invited to participate by testing PPC Cooker.

Heres what I dont understand..

[Chicane-UK]

I understand that the old business method for Linux companies of offering their full products for download, and selling box retail copies for like $29.99 is not the best one... so I understand the need for them to branch out into these more specialist versions of their OS.

But why the hell do they charge so much? The cost of that firewall package was 1,999 Euro. We bought a PIX firewall and it cost like 3,000 Euros. Considering the PIX is actually a hardware appliance as well, I dont think its that bad a deal.

The whole point about Linux distributions (for me at least) was that they undercut the opposition by being either free or ridiculously cheap.. but now they are releasing products that are priced so highly, there is hardly anything in it. Why the huge mark up?

I was looking at the very cool looking SuSE OpenExchange which is designed to compete with Exchange.. and I seriously think after looking at the web demo that it really could.. but it again is priced so damn high, its actually cheaper for us to buy MS Exchange 2000 on our educational license than it is to buy that.

Re:Heres what I dont understand..

[dd301]

But why the hell do they charge so much? The cost of that firewall package was 1,999 Euro. We bought a PIX firewall and it cost like 3,000 Euros. Considering the PIX is actually a hardware appliance as well, I dont think its that bad a deal.

What about support for your product? I think with companies like SUN you will have to pay extra for support (and I don't mean the read from the script kind).

Re:Heres what I dont understand..

[locutus2k]

So far, I've used SuSE 8 and 8.1. Each of them were $80 retail. I know I could have downloaded a different distro for free, but after trying 8 and realizing the level of polish, I felt it was worth it.

Your talking about getting PIX firewall, andthey are very nice units. The downside is you can't use some of the really cool linux network toys on it. Its an important step in the right direction for MandrakeSoft, SuSE, and the others to charge for their specialized software (and their OS as well). Perhaps they haven't learned the agressive pricing thing yet. Lets face it, MS is much better at marketing because they've been doing it much longer. Give them some time, and hopefull it will work out.

When you mention that you can get MS Exchange cheaper, I'm wondering if that includes all of the licensing. Also, my guess it you won't spend near as much time patching the SuSE stuff. With the MS products, you don't get the source code (not sure if you do with the SuSE products, but I'd bet you do). Finally, I've personally installed about a dozen or so copies of Exchange on different networks and I've spent more time cleaning up the mess WHEN (not if) they break.

Lets face it, Micro$oft isn't known for their stability.

Re:Heres what I dont understand..

[div_2n]

PIX is Cisco and there isn't a Linux company on the market that can beat their support. Match it MAYBE, but not beat it.

MandrakeClub

[Andreas(R)]

If you downloaded Mandrake Linux, then I suggest you join Mandrake Club to support futher development:
Mandrake Club

How are membership fees used?

* Membership fees are primarily used to directly fund the development of the Mandrake Linux distribution. Membership fees also pay the salaries of employees who often contribute directly or indirectly to "external" Free Software projects such as the Linux kernel, KDE, GNOME, Prelude, and others

* Fees may also be used for the development of community websites such as MandrakeLinux.com, MandrakeUser.org, MandrakeForum.com and the development of Internet services specifically for the benefit of Club members

Another Question.

[JPriest]

Does "cut operating costs by 42%" mean we can expect the distro to stagnate? ...

Re:Another Question.

[HanzoSan]

Even if it does it wont be as bad as debian.
If you want them to develop faster join the mandrake club.

They currently have an opened increase of capital

[joestar]

I thought it was interesting to notice that Mandrakesoft is currently conducting an increase of capital which is still open to all. They sell new shares at 2.10 Euros (this is under the current stock price which is 2.25 Euros). It might be a good way to invest in such an interesting and innovating company, while giving them more chances to develop.

Additional information about the current increase of capital is available at:

http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/investors/bsa

It includes several very interesting FAQs about MandrakeSoft & Linux, including a long statement about UnitedLinux.

Re:2 grand, wtf!!!

[Afrosheen]

You're definitely a newbie. Check your Networking>WWW menu. That's where your browsers get hidden..in plain sight.

I hate to disappoint you but Mandrake and Redhat don't add more clutter to your desktop every time you install an app. All that stuff goes neatly into the menu (on Mandrake it goes in if you install from a mandrake RPM).

Packet shaping feature?

[Ruudjah]

Does anyone in the house maybe know if the're is a packet shaping feature with Multi Network Firewall? So Kazaa can get some downloading limits, and i can game with a reasonable ping. (sorry for my bad english)

a Windows users reviews Mandrake 9.0

[StillTrekkin]

http://www.tweakhound.com/mandrake9.htm

Here Here

[ninewands]

Mandrake 1.0 was the first Linux distro I ever installed ... I've staggered up the food chain (or is that "learning curve"?) from there since 1997, but my point is this ... Mandrake, Red Hat, Debian and Slackware (and the other "old school" distros (sorry SuSE, your licensing requirements disqualify you from the "old school" grouping)) seem to pour their work product back into the community, while those who've jumped on the bandwagon in the last 2-3 years all seem to want to lead the Microsofting of Linux.

My feeling is this ... give to those who give back!

I disagree ...

[ninewands]

The final thing needed is solid development efforts by manufacturers to support hardware in Linux.

I think it will be a pretty cold day in hell before you see every piece of consumer hardware come with Linux drivers as well as Windows drivers.

I think you are missing the point here ... the Microsoft monopoly FORCES hardware manufacturers to deliver their goods with Windows drivers. Does anyone other than me remember the days when you bought hardware based on whether the manufacturer supported your bus/OS??? Does anybody remember when Mac boards wouldn't plug in to, much less work with, MS-DOS machines?

One company having 90+% penetration of the personal computer market space GUARANTEES that new hardware will ship with drivers for that OS (they may be pre-alpha quality, but what the heck?) ... if the h/w manufacturer didn't support Windows they'd be out of business within a week ...

the beauty that is occurring now is that SOME (re: Nvidia) manufacturers are actively supporting Linux ... but more importantly ... a LOT of them are releasing documentation to the community that allows truly free drivers to be developed OUTSIDE the manufacturing world.

just my US$0.02

Too many distributions

[DABANSHEE]

It fucks with economies of scale.

Look at KDE verses Gnome. No one can use both at hte same time but double the developers are need as would be needed if just one existed.

Plus apps have to make themselves compatible with both, meaning more redundent development.

Re:Too many distributions

[melonman]

Absolutely. I've ended up using Redhat just because I got fed up with finding that binaries didn't work with other distros, but I still come across programs that have been tested on something forked from something that was once Debian. And then we wonder why people have trouble taking open source seriously...

look at the airline industry

[DABANSHEE]

The best news the airline industry could have is for United's Chapter 11 attempt to fail, the end of united would overnight make America's other airlines much more sustainable.

An example of this is Anset going belling up in Oz, meaning QANTAS now makes raging profits, & prices on average haven't gone up. So it's not a matter of less competition meaning higher profits, it's a matter of greater market share/turnover making the fixed costs less in relation to the gross profits, IE simply economies of scale.

Re:look at the airline industry

[Alien Being]

"United's Chapter 11 attempt to fail"

Rhapsody in red.

But they are open source

[HanzoSan]

They are supporting open source, so what if they are for profit, if you want them to survive you will support them, Open source companies must make money somehow.

Or are you so greedy you wont even give them money so they will keep making your code?

Re:But they are open source

[MasterOfMagic]

They are supporting open source, so what if they are for profit, if you want them to survive you will support them, Open source companies must make money somehow.

Yes, they are making their money by selling their distro. I have bought their distro, therefore I have supported them. I feel no remorse in not joining MandrakeClub if I have bought their boxed distro.

Or are you so greedy you wont even give them money so they will keep making your code?

As much as I love and support Mandrake, if they can't get their buisness model turned around and turn a profit and they go under, it won't be the end of my world. I will go to one of the many other fine distros out there for newbie users for machines that I set up for other people. Doesn't bother me. That's why Open Source is so nice. If you can't get it from one distributer, you can always go to another and get it from there, or you can get it from the source.

The flaw in your logic lies in the fact that Mandrake is a for profit company. As much as I like them, they are out to make a profit through their products. Would you apply the same logic to Microsoft since they're for profit?

They are supporting closed source, so what if they are for profit. If you want them to survive, you will support them. Closed source companies must make money somehow.

Again, this doesn't work because Microsoft is a for-profit company. If a company cannot find a way to make money on its products, too bad, so sad, they go out of buisness.

Re:But they are open source

[HanzoSan]

So now they make money from selling something thats free? What kinda BS is this?

Not even redhat makes money by SELLING redhat linux, they make money by selling services.

Mandrake Linux is extremely important because its the only Desktop Linux that gives a damn about the community, Redhat doesnt, Lycoris and Lindows doesnt, Suse and United Linux dont.

So your only other options are Debian, and Slackware.

Theres no community for newbies without Mandrake.

Microsoft is releasing their source code?

[HanzoSan]

I'd donate money to Microsoft if they were going to release the source code to Windows.

Mandrake Club IS a service

[HanzoSan]

What the hell do you think your money pays for? The service of producing code, the service of being able to download the ISO, the service of being able to access all the code, the service of being able to get all this great software packaged up, the service of Linux Mandrake.

Open Source software is NOT a product, its a service, CLOSED SOURCE SOFTWARE IS A PRODUCT.

Theres a difference

Re:Mandrake Club IS a service

[HanzoSan]

Mandrake club has nothing to do with donating, your money goes directly to pay for the code production, the website, its a membership you fool.

Why do Americans get so confused and angry . . .

[Idou]

when things aren't the same in a different country? America's FASB does not reach around the globe. Therefore, it is reasonable not to expect American GAAP principles to be applied in France, wouldn't it?

American GAAP are the most stringent in the world and compliance with the SEC can be very costly. Mandrake stock is not traded in the U.S. so they are not under the same rules you are accustomed to . . . get used to it, there are 6billion OTHER people in this world that don't live life like you do. Why should Mandrake incur more cost just because YOU think they should do things differently?

If you really want Mandrake to release F/S that conform to your conditioned expectations, start requesting that their stock is traded in the U.S. Otherwise, get used to people doing things differently . . .

What mystifies me...

[Perdition]

Is how so-called "upgrades" of Mandrake seem to be total rehashes. I ordered 9 from Mandrake and eventually got it (with appropriate apologies for its tardiness). I backed up my important stuff and decided to do a wipeout install just for fun. Nothing worked quite as well as 8.2 out-of-box. No printer, no sound, odd omissions of access to partitions, etc. After running the rabbits for a while, I gave up and reinstalled 8.2. Bingo, evrything worked. Upgraded packages to 9, and everything still worked. What had Mandrake forgotten about from 8.2 to 9? It is these stuttering steps in development that hamper Linux' growth at times, I think. Anyway, I'm using 9 now and am happy, just weirded out.

Try Lycoris or Redhat 8 first

[bogie]

Don't use those semi-free distros. They are bad for linux and opensource in general. Mostly free does not equal free and that is exactly what Xandros and Lindows are. It's an alarming trend and I hope all of those distros which are eager to add proprietary bits to the central cores of their distros go out of business. Either one of the distros I mentioned in the subject should do what you ask as both have very good consistent user interfaces and are easy to configure.

Re:thanks

[HiThere]

Odds are that when he said "write a script" he was thinking bash or perl, not javascript. Javascript is intentionally bad at calling OS routines.

Re:probably was...

[HiThere]

Yah. As documentation that's pretty bad. But knowing that you can fix an unforseen (in detail) problem with a shell script, and knowing what the shell script has to say (without seeing the problem) are very different things.